Jay sits down with recent viral TikToker, Kaytlin O'Neall to discuss Kaytlin's very countercultural view on sex and dating, the backlash that comes along with it, and how to set boundaries in a relationship.

You can follow Kaytlin here-

TikTok- @kaytlin.oneall

Instagram- kaytlin.oneall

YouTube- Kaytlin O'Neall

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Welcome to this week's edition of Taboo Talk with Jay Lauder.

I am really excited about today's guest.

She has a really unique perspective on dating and, uh, on teenage sexuality.

Matter of fact, she recently did a TikTok video that had two and a half

million views, really just blew up.

And, uh, we're gonna get into that a little bit later.

But welcome to today's podcast, Cait.

Hi.

It is so good to be here.

I am so excited to talk about mine and my boyfriend's, um, convictions and

relationship that is very countercultural and the TikTok that blew up and has

gained a lot of media attention and a lot of different, you know, newspapers

and tabloids and all that kind of stuff.

Really asking a lot of questions that I would love to answer and

address and all that kind of stuff.

Well, definitely your perspective.

Very unconventional.

Not biblically unconventional, but unconventional from today's standards.

I mean, every time you turn on social media or television, uh,

sex is just flaunted everywhere.

You can't escape it.

And there's kind of a mindset among many people that anything

goes and be you and do you.

And so, uh, again, we're gonna get into this tick video and, and what

you revealed and kind of the, the stir that it caused, it's been.

The amount of national broadcast that have reached out to you

that want to talk to you.

Um, one of 'em I won't mention because I know it hasn't yet been

aired, um, but have talked to you.

That is a program that's on every single day on network television.

So it, it's created a lot of stir today before we started the podcast.

I was doing a little bit of research and checked out some recent

statistics from the cdc, of course, the Center for Disease Control.

They're really an authority on sexuality, um, suicide addiction.

The list goes on and on, but I wanted to start the podcast.

To just kind of set the tone of what the CDC is saying.

I know you're 19, you're about to turn 20 here in just a couple of weeks.

But some of the statistics, , uh, that I read just really about an hour ago, are

pretty amazing, and this is what they are.

They tell us that 25% of teenagers.

Have had sex by age 15, that number jumps to over half.

55% of teenagers have had sex by the time they turn 18 years of age.

And when you think about the fact that most teenagers don't end up getting

married into their late twenties, those who have had multiple sex

partners, uh, obviously there can create a, a, a lot of issues there.

Um, the list goes on.

86% of, uh, people ages 20 to 20.

Have had sexual intercourse at least once.

And ironically, they tell us that youth with stronger connections

to family are those that are less likely to be involved sexually.

Uh, just a couple of more here that are pretty fascinating.

Uh, 38% have had oral sex by the age of 17 in most cases.

This is females, uh, uh, performing oral sex on males.

And then last but not least, this was amazing to.

Um, when we're talking about sexually transmitted diseases, according

to them, they say that of ages 15 to 24, they account for half.

Now listen to this statistic of the 26 million.

New sexually transmitted diseases every year in the United States.

So when you hear these statistics and you see what's going on among the

teenage culture, and then of course I've seen your videos and, um, I love 'em.

I, I'm so much respect for you and the stance that you take.

Um, As you well stated, your position is very countercultural to what is

the experience of most teenagers.

So let's launch into this TikTok video where, uh, all this, uh, exposure

came from and, uh, quite frankly, a lot of it, uh, convers as well.

So tell us about this TikTok video.

What is it actually that you shared, and, uh, what are some of the responses?

What is it that you revealed that created such a stir?

So a little bit ago I made a TikTok that was to a current, um, trend

that was going viral at that time, and I decided to do my own little spin on it.

And it was a trend where you would say, Oh, people's reaction to.

Blank, and then you would give your own little explanation and

then people's responses to your own personal, like whatever it was for you.

So I made a video and people's responses were very, very, very, I.

Very controversial and I basically revealed that me and my boyfriend

of almost two years hadn't kissed.

And people's responses to that and questions they ask, and then it just

opened the floodgates of even more question, more like allegation about our

relationship and it not being a valid relationship or being just friends.

All of these.

Things people would say in response to hearing this very different approach

to a relationship that probably most people hadn't heard before.

Yeah.

Well, I'm sure that most people, when they hear.

I mean, you're a beautiful girl, and, uh, the guy that you date, I've met

him, a super nice guy, sharp guy.

I, I mean, it, it is stunning because it's so, again, counter, I hate to keep

using the word countercultural, but it is, and when you hear that somebody's been

together for two years, not to mention y'all were even friends before that.

Um, It, it's surprising because this is not what you see on tv.

It's not what you see on social media.

So you told people that y'all had been together for, uh, two years and that

y'all had never even kissed, obviously, let alone having done anything sexually.

What is it?

I mean, what did people say?

What, what is some of the comments that you

got?

Um, people said such a large spectrum of things.

They said everything from you're just friends, you're friends without benefits.

Your asexual.

One of you is a lesbian, one of you is gay.

They called him gay over and over again.

Um, they said that, Oh, this is probably due to like sexual

trauma within the church, and oh, it's because you're religious.

Are you Catholic?

Are you Muslim?

Like, all these different questions on my religion.

Saying, Oh, it's a girl defined relationship, saying that, of course it's,

she wears the pants in the relationship cuz what guy would agree to that?

And literally just comment after comment after comment of just these

allegation type comments, thinking people just had it figured out and knew.

Kind of what was the reason behind it when that was none of that.

Those things were anywhere on the spectrum of why we do what

we do in like our convictions of where we've come up till now.

And I made, after that TikTok, I made about four others.

Um, three of just me explaining, just trying to give more insight into why I

do the things that I have, like the, in my own personal walk, why I've chosen

certain things, and then Drew and I together in our relationship, how we

have communicated and that type of thing.

And then I made a video with him, so four videos total, and those got, um,

hundreds of thousands of views as well.

Um, but just us talking.

You know, trying to give people more and more insight, which ultimately

I knew after that fourth video that I probably would give it a break as

far as answering comments because.

People just still did not understand.

And it was still that same, like after we've addressed the fact that

he's not gay, the fact that I'm not a lesbian, the fact that we're not

just friends, it still like, is hard for people to understand and grasp.

So we kind of gave it a break, but that was kind of the, the,

um, steps of TikTok and the.

And that kind of thing with it blowing up.

So people

that have not seen the video, was there anything that you revealed other

than the fact that y'all had dated for two years and had never kissed?

Was there anything else that you said for, obviously many of our listeners

may not have seen this video, so was there anything else that was

included in that video other than that

fact?

No, that was pretty much the only thing I said.

Um, because the first line of the TikTok was things people have said to me when

they find out, me and my boyfriend of almost two years haven't kissed.

And then I, you know, throughout the video gave different responses.

People asking the question why asking, Well, what else?

Do you do asking like how, and just all these, like what, you

know, kind of questions of just completely not understanding like

where we're coming from with it.

So,

So not only was there criticism, there was also, from what I'm gathering

you saying there was also some insinuation that although you may not have kissed,

that y'all may have crossed other lines.

Is that correct?

Yes.

And so again, for our listeners that haven't watched the videos in the.

Following three videos, is that where you began to reveal what your stance

was and why your stance was what it was?

Absolutely.

And I never, ever wanted to come at any of my explanations with any

level of judgment for other people.

I was.

My heart behind it was never to put my conviction on someone else and

put what me and Drew have done in our relationship on someone else.

Because everybody, we all have different journeys and we're all different

people and we all have different ways.

We look at relationships and handle relationships.

And so I basically just kind of went into different comments and

explained even from a young age how I viewed relationships and how.

I wanted to go forward in relationships and with knowing myself and knowing

how I am, I wanted to be self-aware and not naive to the fact of like,

you know, different boundaries and things that I'd be comfortable with.

And then I went into times that me and Drew had conversations and revealing

those things and how his response was and all of these different aspects.

And a lot of people even asked about my parents and asked about my religious

background in all of those different.

Like aspects that you could say, um, about just this whole huge topic of

physical boundaries within a relationship.

Because it's a very broad topic, like it is very.

It's very, I mean, multifaceted.

And so I was trying to cover as much of that as I possibly could.

So that's kind of what those videos concised of is like me just talking

and trying to give insight to people who had genuine questions.

Why

do you think that so many people were.

I, I know I read a lot of the comments.

I couldn't read all of them because there were so many of

them, but I read some comments.

Some people applauded you and they, um, even defended you, not knowing you and

saying, Hey, respect her convictions.

Respect her boundaries.

And I read some of the other comments that I won't even go into on

today's podcast that were very rude.

Um, very indicting.

Um, That were horrible.

You, You mentioned your mom and dad.

Did your mom and dad kind of backing up a little bit, did your mom and

dad, I mean the environment that you grew up in, and I know you

said some people asked about that.

Did that play a role in this stance that you have taken?

I definitely think that it has, It has definitely influenced me in a

positive way, but also a lot of people assume that I've done the things that I've

done because my parents have made me think this certain way, or the church has forced

this thought process on me when really.

My parents were high school sweethearts and they had only dated

one another and they didn't date a bunch of people and they wanted it

to remain pure in their relationship.

And I've always grown up seeing that and that's always been my example.

And I knew that I needed, like, I was gonna have to make choices for

my own relationship cuz my parents' relationship and religion is not my own.

All of these things are like decisions and choices I'm gonna have to make.

So I, I would say probably, you know, whenever you're young,

you think of relationships.

But as I started getting older, it became more real of, okay, what is a

relationship gonna look like for me?

What are boundaries that I wanna set beforehand?

Cuz my mom would always say, You wanna make up your mind

before you get in a situation because if you wait till someone.

Offering you a drink or you're getting put in that position, then you're

probably gonna make the bad decision because our emotions can take over.

And so I've always looked at that and I've always wanted to make up my mind before

getting in a relationship what kind of general boundaries I wanna set for myself.

And so they were always so supportive of anything I wanted to do growing up.

They never were like, You can't date, you can date at a certain age.

I know a lot of people who are like, Oh, 16 was the age I could start dating and,

oh, 19 or 18, and that like from what I've noticed, it gives this like incentive

of, I have to date at those ages.

When my parents, they were like, Whenever we feel like and you feel

like that the Lord has put the right person in your life, we'll support you.

We'll pray about it.

We will like, Be with you in this new step of life and just

kind of navigating it from there.

And I've been so grateful for how they've handled it and just honestly

given such wise counsel and really trust my judgment and also trusting

to that I can hear the Lord and I can hear his voice for my own self.

Well, I

know you mentioned that your mom and dad and, and I know your mom and dad, I

know that you mentioned your mom and dad were both virgins when they got married.

So no doubt, uh, growing up in the environment you did

certainly played a role.

But you're making it clear that although you grew up in an environment where

a, a really good example was set, it wasn't that you were confined by your

parents, that you were so manipulated and controlled by your mom and dad,

that you didn't have the autonomy to make some decisions on your own.

So, Right.

Uh, uh, another thing, what was it like?

At what point did you tell your boyfriend, Hey, this is my

convictions, and what was his response?

I'm sure some people listen to this and even based on some of the comments

that were mentioned, there was this underlying thought that, okay, that

may be your stance, but people were saying, I know how guys are and, and

guys are not gonna capitulate to this.

So at what point did you tell your boyfriend, Hey, this is, this is my

conviction and this is my stance, and basically, You know, this is gotta be the

way it's gonna be if you're gonna date me.

What, at what point did you tell him and, and what did he say when you told him

this?

Right.

Um, well, Drew and I have known each other since we were in seventh grade.

We've known each other for such a long time, and we've always been

friends, more so off and on throughout like middle school and high school.

But, um, the.

Couple years before we got in a relationship, we were really good

friends and he told me the end of our sophomore year, going into our junior

year, Hey, I have feelings for you.

I really like you.

And kind of telling me that he's had feelings for me, like ever since he

met me, like I've always been the standard of person that he would

wanna date or could see himself with, which was very flattering.

I really appreciate that and hearing that, but I was very.

Cautious.

I wanted to, I told him, I was like, I'm not about to jump into a relationship.

I've always wanted to take dating very seriously.

I'm not the type of person that just wants to date around.

I don't wanna just date a bunch of different people just to get to know them.

For me personally, it's been something that, like I look at

relationships as that, that's giving.

Some of your heart, and that's giving time and effort and energy.

And I didn't wanna just put that into anyone.

I wanted to really like, value who I was putting time and effort into.

So, um, Drew and I, we, that summer going into our junior

year, we kind of took like s.

Seven months, which I know some people like look at that as very drastic.

But, um, for someone who's never dated before and he'd never dated anybody

either, um, we, I like, I was just like, I kind of wanna get to know you on even

more of a deeper friendship level of like, are you someone I would really

consider dating because I always wanted to date with the intent of marriage.

And so did he.

Um, so as we talked and became better friends, really, really intentional

friendship, those seven months, um, we talked about more of those things.

So about a.

Before we started dating, um, this is about December.

Um, he asked my dad for permission to date me and we also had the conversation

as far as like physical boundaries, like a very brief conversation.

And I was kind of nervous to tell him, to be completely honest, because

we do live in this world where the.

Guys, you know, there can be the stigma that guys are very much

like not receptive to those things.

So I was kind of nervous to tell him, even though I knew what kind of person

he was, I knew his character and he's so loving and so understanding about like

everything so, I kind of came to him and I was like, I've really prayed very

deeply for my own life and my own heart about what I'm feeling, and I really

would like to wait to kiss until marriage.

And he looked at me and he was like, I totally, completely respect that.

He said, I was thinking about saving it for two to three years because I

had never even thought about saving it for marriage, like nobody had.

Mention that to me, that was never a thought or an idea

that I had ever had before.

And so he was just so loving and receptive to it, and then he was like,

Okay, this is what we're gonna do.

We are gonna do this together.

We're gonna uplift one another.

We're gonna encourage each other in our relationship for this common goal.

Because that's also something that's been misconstrued, is it's not just

me in my conviction, it's him too.

Like we've wanted to be a partnership in our relat.

Where it's not just one of us dictating everything.

It's us both communicating and going forward in what we both

feel like it's necessary to do.

So

were you surprised by his response or did you kind of, based on the fact

that you guys have been friends for months, did you kind of expect that this

was gonna be his response from the jump?

Because I would think that there may have been some apprehension

on your behalf of when I tell him this, I mean, he may say, I'm.

Yeah, I, I overall kind of knew it wouldn't be like a deal

breaker or anything like that.

I just, it was the nervousness of telling him because I,

at this point, we dated him.

We officially started dating about a month later after this conversation,

and I just knew that this was a very important conversation we both need to

have and get on the same page about.

And that's what we've tried to do throughout our whole relationship is

even in little things, talk about it.

I mean, there's nothing wrong with talking about what we're both comfortable with

in our boundaries, like in keeping that.

Open communication line because then it just is leading to healthy

conversation and all that kind of stuff.

So I knew he would be very gracious and receptive to it, but I just didn't realize

he would be so like, I love that idea.

That is amazing.

And it's so precious because I've always looked at it as like that's something

special I can say for my future husband, even if I don't, like I didn't have

to, Nobody told me I had to do that, but why not give it all to my future

husband and then put all of that within the confines of marriage and then have

a blessed marriage because of that?

Not because that's the only way you can have a good marriage, but because that

can be such a blessing to another person.

Circling back a little bit too.

You mentioned earlier in regards to the TikTok video that one of the

things that was a common denominator that was brought up was religion.

Why do you think that people automatically made the assumption that

your stance was based on a religion?

Um, I definitely think because of just the cri, the Christian

culture is, um, it can just be very much can force in different ways and

I know a lot of people have a lot of hurt where church is concerned.

And I know a lot of people have different experiences and different religious fig

figures in their lives where they have felt pressure and they felt shame and

condemnation and all of this stuff where people are concerned that can do with

the church, which I absolutely hate and.

I understand where people come from, where they're asking if it's

religious based, but I've, what I've said in other ticks is, I am not

a Christian because of a religion.

I am a Christian because of a relationship, and I had

to find that in my own life.

I had to realize that I was a sinner in need of a savior, and it's my own,

like I cannot be saved by my parents.

I can't be saved by my boyfriend.

I can't be saved by my brothers.

Like it has to be my own personal decision.

And then from.

My life in the fruit that is produced from being a Christian and

pursuing the Lord, that's also on me.

And I've, I've always wanted to like, strive to do what was right.

Not to say that I'm perfect and the slightest regard, but I have wanted,

wanted to strive to do what's right, and that's been a heart and a desire of mine.

So even with like the boyfriend and dating and relationships and boundaries

and all of that good stuff, I wanted to seek the Lord and I wanted to seek

him in what is small details of things and what is right for me, What is

right for my personal self that will make my relationship the most blessed

and prosperous it could possibly be.

Well,

and as we said earlier, I, I think for some people they just literally

couldn't wrap their mind around the.

That two people have been together for two years and that's why some of the

assumptions were made that although you guys didn't kiss that there were

other things that were going on.

And your stance was obviously blatantly boyfriends don't

get husband of privileges.

I mean, so whatever.

Is reserved for me and my marriage is reserved for that man that

I ultimately marry, and, and that's the way it's gonna be.

And I just love the fact that you took a high road but you didn't

impose your convictions on others.

I know we talked about this in a previous conversation.

Sometimes Christians can be the worst about taking some gray areas

and because their conviction is a certain thing to impose it on other

people or even judge or condemn.

For an example, movies.

I mean, some people won't go to the movie theater and that's

fine if that's your conviction.

Don't go to the movie theater.

But I've seen where some Christians have began to condemn other people

because they felt that for them it was wrong to go to a movie.

But there are certain black and white issues that are wrong for everybody.

I mean, sex before marriage is biblically wrong.

It, it's not a gray area.

Um, it, it's a black and white issue, but these other areas that are, that

there is not a biblical mandate on 'em.

Um, it's great to have your own convictions, but that doesn't

mean because the Lord has led a person in a certain area.

That everybody else has to follow.

And I love the fact that you said, Hey, this is my conviction, but I'm

not saying that everybody else should be in a relationship where they,

whatever, don't hold hands, don't kiss, don't go to movies or whatever.

So I love the fact that you approached it from the, you never took, you had a high

ground, but you were never stuffy about it and never imposing on other people.

And, and, and, and I love that.

You know, here you have your personal convictions.

Um, you were led to a guy that also not only, uh, embraced that, but

agreed with these personal convictions.

But why?

I mean, what, why these boundaries?

I mean, what, I know that you said you, you grew up in a home and no

doubt the influence of your mother and father saving themselves for marriage

certainly would've played a role in that.

No doubt.

And, and that's a great thing, but I, I.

Why do you have these boundaries?

Are these boundaries there?

Because, is it because of your relationship, uh, with the Lord?

Is it because of religion?

Is it because I mean, a lot of people, I think that's one of the

questions that, that I, I saw is people trying to understand, but why?

Right.

And that's a great question and I feel like that I have different schools of

thought when you ask that question.

It's a very multifaceted thing.

Um, cuz there's a lot of different reasons.

But I would say a good reason is also understanding myself.

I really wanted to know who I am.

Um, I've said this in a TikTok before, but Drew and I, both of our

love languages is physical touch.

And if you are a touchy person, then you know that that can be hard, especially

being in a romantic relationship because those desires are there.

We are naturally sexual beings, like the Lord created us that way and.

To abstain from things.

It can be hard sometimes, and I think that with knowing myself and Drew

knowing who he is, it's definitely been something important for us to communicate

about is like, what is the boundaries that will put us in the best mindset?

Because if our minds are not in the good place, Then it will lead to other things.

So we've always wanted to keep ourselves like very in check and also

have good accountability outside of one another because it's important

to talk to other people and to really get wise counsel on top of that.

And as far as where my relationship with the Lord is concerned, I've never wanted.

To condemn anybody for anything that they've done in a relationship, and

I really appreciate you saying that cuz I've really never wanted to

put my conviction on anyone else.

My whole heart behind all of this is that.

Even if you have done something in a relationship that you're not proud

of or anything like that, that God is the God of redemption and restoration.

And I've, I wanna share my story and Drew wants to share his like, and I wanna talk

about it because I wanna encourage someone else that they can do things differently.

You don't have to look like the world.

You don't have to look like the hypersexual.

Cultural standard that we live in.

Like you can have a blessed, amazing marriage relationship, communication,

like you can have a very healthy situation without involving sex or

involving sexual type things that might get in the way of a relationship.

And I think that withdrew and I having stronger sexual boundaries, it is

led to then us having more in depth.

Like conversations for one another, and we've really gotten to know each

other on a personal level of who one another is on a like baseline of

like, why are we the way that we are?

And it's really just been an amazing thing for our relationship.

And I just wanna like r.

Say that to anybody else listening that it's really not a, I'm higher on my

horse because I make plenty of mistakes.

Drew and I have not been perfect.

And yes, we've had like strong boundaries, but we've also had to grow.

We've also had to learn, We've had to, we've had conversations of, okay, now

that we know that we're not gonna kiss and have sex, what are the gray areas?

Like what are the holding hands?

What's the putting your arm around?

You know, all like that kind of stuff of what is the conversations and what's gonna

put us in the best position possible?

I think that with conviction, cuz it really does come down to conviction.

Me and him have just really wanted to seek the Lord because the Bible

is not very clear on, oh, you're supposed to kiss or not kiss.

The Bible does not say that.

So with it saying, obviously sex outside of marriage is wrong.

All the other things as far as like the holding the hands, you know,

the kissing, all that kind of stuff.

Then it's what is your conviction on it?

What is your personal.

Conviction, and it kind of comes down to that, is when you are seeking the Lord and

you are having a relationship with him, then that's when conviction can come in.

Because if I did not wanna have conviction on things, then I would just

go about living how I wanted to live.

But see, when I seek the Lord and conviction, I use this example

earlier when we were talking about it.

Like if I had the conviction, I didn't want to eat cake, but then my best friend

ate cake every single day of their life.

If I were to eat cake, I would feel guilty.

I would feel really bad, and I would feel like all of this like

condemnation because I did something that I had a conviction about.

But she wouldn't because she didn't have a conviction about

that, and that's totally fine.

So that was like kind of the, like the elementary school example that I used

because it's, it shows the heart behind what I'm meaning when I say conviction is.

Some things are gonna be more or less for others, and that's something that you

need to understand yourself about, and I really am a firm believer of realizing

who you are and understanding yourself and your mannerisms and things that

you can struggle with, and then going about life and boundaries accordingly.

Well, and it's important too for anybody about anything that

you don't betray your conscience because the more you betray your

conscience, the more it gets hardened.

And, and, and sitting here having this discussion and thinking

about all this, and we're here, we're talking about boundaries.

It's amazing to me when you think about what other repercussions of stepping

outside of God's will in this area when you're talking about what God's mandate

is, is no sex outside of marriage.

I mean, if there wasn't sex outside of marriage, There wouldn't be, we

wouldn't have an St D issue that I mentioned earlier where 26 million

people a year are getting a s t D.

Um, we wouldn't have, uh, people cheating on one another.

We wouldn't have unwanted teenage pregnancies.

We would have a lot less divorce.

We wouldn't have marital and faithfulness.

And I think some people, they look at, Okay, man, this is the last thing I want

to hear more about God's boundaries.

They have this perception.

That God puts up all these parameters, he puts up these chalk lines because

he wants to stymie everybody from having a, a great time in life.

And that's not the case.

I, I look at it as.

When we go to a hotel, uh, oftentimes I like to stay on the top floor so I

don't hear people walking above me.

And so when you get on the higher floors, there's obviously guardrails.

Well, the guardrails aren't put there, so people can't have a good

time walking up and down the hallway.

It's a precautionary measure.

They put them there so that people don't stumble and fall down.

The embassy suites 11 floors to their death, and so it isn't a matter of God

trying to stymie people having fun.

Sex is God's gift.

I mean, and it's a great gift.

It, of course, it has its boundaries and everybody's heard the analogy,

or I think they have that.

And it's a great analogy, even though it's overused about sex is like a

fire, a fire in its proper place.

I, man, I, there's nothing I love more than on a cold winter's night to have

a, a great fire going in the fireplace.

And man, it brings comfort, it brings warmth, uh, seren.

But you take that same fire and you bring it out of our fireplace in the den and

you let it spill over in the carpet.

We've got a huge issue.

And so I think there's a a negative perception, and I think that's

why some of the people on social media responded the way they did.

I think some of it was maybe guilt, but I think some of it too was this mindset.

That as we're talking about boundaries today, that God is

putting up these boundaries.

Number one, they perceive them as impossible.

You're proving that they're not.

And number two, they perceive them as unfair.

God doesn't want me to have a good time.

No, he does.

He just wants you to have a good time in the right place, the right

time in the right setting, and that would be in a marriage situation

As we talk about boundaries today, Caitlin, what do you believe?

I.

As far as what are God's boundaries?

Not, not just for you, but I mean your understanding of the Bible

is God's boundaries on sex is what

I would definitely say.

That, um, in the Bible, it's very clear and evident of talking

about sexual intercourse and how that is wrong and how that is not

within God's design plan for us.

And again, just like echoing what you said is that like it's not, it's not

about keeping us from things, it's.

Knowing our human nature and knowing how we are as earthly sexual beings.

And it's not about keeping us from things, but it's about protecting us

and keeping us safe in what is the blessing and the intention for marriage.

And I think that for boundaries, again, I think that that's

when conviction does come.

And I keep talking about conviction.

I feel like I sound like a broken record, but conviction.

Truly is that past the point of what the Lord has put in parameters.

So what I mean by that is like I would say for boundaries.

So God says, Okay, very clearly do not have sex in the Bible.

So boundaries would then be from the convictions is what?

Am I comfortable with what is gonna put me in good places to

not cross those boundaries and the conviction, like Drew and I have the

conviction not to kiss one another.

It does not say the Bible not to kiss.

It does not say you are sinful or gonna go to hell or anything like that.

If you kiss, hold hands, hug.

Whatever, but it's what is your personal conviction?

If you feel not like you feel kind of an icky feeling about like, you know what,

Hey, I don't wanna give like front hugs.

I wanna give side hugs, like as a random example.

Then you need to honor and uplift that conviction for yourself.

Because once we have a conviction and once we're starting to live

that out, then that becomes sin when we go against that conviction.

And so I think that that's kind of the realm.

What becomes sin and what doesn't because it's not about me kissing.

My boyfriend is way holier than th than you who does kiss your boyfriend.

It's really about if you don't have a conviction not to kiss your boyfriend,

then that's great and wonderful.

I'm happy for you and your relationship.

That's awesome.

I really have no ill will.

I've had friends kiss, not kiss, you know, done other things.

I do not wanna judge other people based off of what they feel conviction about.

But at the same time, if you do have a conviction about something, I think

that that's when it becomes very serious that you do honor how the Lord

has put that conviction in your heart.

Because he puts convictions in our heart for a reason.

He knows us and loves us.

We are knitted together in our mother's womb.

He knows everything about us.

He knows more about us than we know about ourselves.

And so the things that he has in place for us is not to keep

us hidden from good things.

It's not to keep us bound and shackled to, I mean, bad things.

It's really to help.

Bring us and uplift us in the greatest way possible so that we can fulfill our full

potential in who we should be in Christ.

And again, it's not about perfection.

I always say that it's not about perfection.

It's about trying to strive for our very best.

And it's not this standard cuz it's not about your works that

are gonna get you to heaven.

It's not about how good you are, how many times.

Up, it's, it's genuinely about like how our heart posture is for Christ.

And if we are desiring the things of him and if we are desiring the things that

are good and wholesome and we're always gonna miss the mark, we always will.

And that's not to just brush our sins under the rug, but it's to

know that God is a God of grace and God is a God of love, and he has

so much love and purpose for every person listening and otherwise like.

So much purpose for everyone.

And so it's all, it all goes back to like, his love for us is so great, and

that's why sometimes our human nature feels like we're getting things taken

away when really he's just protecting us.

Well,

Caitlin, in talking about boundaries, I mean, I would imagine I,

I've been speaking to students for a long time, Matter of fact, About three

nights, three or four nights ago, I was in a football stadium in Arkansas.

Before that, I was at a, at a college.

So I've spoken to a lot of students for a long time and I would imagine there's

gonna be some students that are gonna hear this and go, Okay, so I get it.

It it's a black and white issue.

Especially believers are gonna say, Okay, well I know intercourse

outside of marriage is, is wrong.

But I mean, you remember the statistic I quoted earlier, that 38% of

teenagers by the age of 17 before they hit age 17, and this is mostly

females giving oral sex to males.

I would imagine there's gonna be some students that are gonna hear

this podcast and go, But hey, I mean, I'm, and I've heard students have

told me this, I mean by the droves.

Well, we're not having intercourse.

I mean, we, we touch each other.

We have oral sex, we do other things, but we're not having intercourse.

And so, What would you say to the student that goes, Hey, I, I'm dating

this girl, I'm dating this guy, and yeah, we we're not having intercourse.

We do other things.

I mean, would you feel like that that's outside of God's ordained boundaries and

would you have scripture that would back

that up?

I do think that that is outside of like the Lord's plan for us, and I think he's

very clear and I just, I think that the best way to answer that is I do think

that anything that is sexual intercourse outside of marriage, anything of his.

Entering anything of hers is wrong.

So just as a quick little statement to that, I think that that is very

brief and very concise to the point.

But I do think that that is very evident within the Bible because again, it's

not about how much we can get around.

That's what like Drew and I have even talked about and like realizing

in a relationship how it's not just about not kissing and not having sex.

There's so many other things that you have to talk about.

And there's so many things that like can get you, like lines that can be crossed

that will then lead you to other things.

And it's this spiral if you don't cut it off and if you don't create

the lines and the sand about what you will and will not do.

And so I think again, that goes back to that of like.

You just, it's not all about what you can get around doing.

It's not about doing as much as you can do to then say, Oh, I haven't

had sex, or, Oh, I haven't kissed, but you've done like everything else.

It's not about that.

It's about are we having a heart posture of purity?

Yeah.

Well we

did a podcast, one of our recent podcasts, uh, we interviewed

a lady who has a ministry to women, uh, who struggled with porn.

And she talked about, she was a believer and she talked about how

she wore a purity ring, but she had a perception that because.

Was not having sex that.

Anything else that she was doing was okay.

But you look at what the Bible says, and the Bible says, and I think

this is important to talk about.

Number one, it says that when two people come together and have intercourse,

that the two become one flesh.

That there is a connection that's developed between two people when

they get to this level of intimacy.

And I, I think, again, this is one another, one of the reasons

why God puts this boundary.

Because there is a tie that comes together between two people that can

not be developed in any other way, but through this sexual relationship.

And, and I, I think that that's one of the reasons God puts that

boundary there because of the, not only, it's not just the physical

time, but it's the emotional tie.

I mean, I'm married and I've been married a long time, and I know just.

In in, in its own unique way, the intimacy that I have with

my wife brings a connection.

It's a different connection, but a connection that I'm

unable to feel any other way.

And so, um, I, I, I think that's one of the things that have to

be taken into consideration.

Again, especially when you look at the fact, one of the statistics

I quoted earlier where you talk about people that are having.

Multiple sex partners.

And I know oftentimes, and I've been told this Jay, um, we, we had sex.

We really thought we were gonna get married.

You know, we dated for a year, two years, three years, whatever.

Uh, we had plans and I've had so many students that have said, I so regretted.

I I we had sex because I thought we were gonna get married and we didn't.

And now I am getting married and I wish I would not have made that

mistake because there was a belief that they were gonna tie the knot.

I think from a spiritual perspective.

The Bible talks about this.

I think some people who would say that oral sexes, um, or touching or these

other aspects of intimacy are gray areas.

I agree with you.

I don't see 'em as gray areas because the Bible talks about it's good

for a man not to touch a woman.

And I think the boundaries are set really clear there.

And again, I, this is not.

God up there with a whip waiting to crack people when they get out of line.

This is not God being some, uh, buzz, kill it.

It's not that again, it, it's a precautionary thing

that, that God puts in place.

And I think with people understand the connection that can be developed.

And I, I also, I mean, I could go on and on, I think about how many people

have stayed in relationships that they knew were toxic, that they knew were not

healthy, that they knew they shouldn't be.

That they stayed in just because of the sexual aspect that, I mean,

it's sad to say, but the only reason they were staying together was just

because of the fulfillment and it's a God given fulfillment that God

gives through the act of intimacy.

Moving on, Caitlin, you've mentioned, um, parameters and I know we talked

about this earlier today before, uh, we started the podcast and.

That it, it's, it's great to say I'm not going to do fill in the blank.

I mean, that's great, but having the goal of not stepping outside of a

conviction or a boundary, um, is great, but that in and of itself is not enough.

There's gotta be an action plan.

There have to be predetermined parameters that are already in place.

I love that you said before you and Drew really got into a serious relationship.

Y'all didn't try to solve this after the fact.

You guys solved this before you began dating, which is really a

recipe for doing things correctly.

And so, you know, I, I liken it to this, uh, I, if somebody came to me today

and said, Jay, I'm a former alcoholic and I've been clean for six months.

But I got invited tonight to go to such and such bar.

Well, I don't think you would have to be a rocket scientist or a genius

to say, Hey, listen, you've gotta put yourself in a situation where

it doesn't mean that you can't fall.

Anybody can fall.

Anybody can make a mistake, but you can do things to alleviate

putting yourself in a situation where you're more likely to fall.

An a former alcoholic probably doesn't have any business going to a bar.

Even if their intentions are to just meet with a friend, there is, they're

putting themself in a predicament in an environment where there is the

likelihood of giving into temptation.

I would be curious, hearing from you, Caitlin.

I mean, because as you said, you're just human.

I know again, we talked earlier, um, anybody can fall.

You're not above following me or anybody else.

What are some parameters that you and your boyfriend drew have put into

place to say, Okay, if we're going to follow these convictions, if,

if we're gonna stay true to what we believe, these are some things that.

Need to avoid.

These are some arenas that, that we need to stay away from.

What are some of those parameters that you guys have put up?

I, I think there'll be people listening today that say, You know what?

I have made some mistakes.

I do carry regrets.

But as you said earlier, I can start over today, but starting over today again

with just the goals not enough, what are some parameters that you guys put into

place that maybe others might follow?

Definitely, I think the parameters are such a great question

to ask because I'm all about giving practical steps because it's easy to

sit here and tell you my story and as a listener to hear this and then

think, Well, that's great for you.

But like, I mean, I've already done X, Y, or Z and like all that other stuff

and I can't do what you're doing now.

Well, I like to give practical steps in the sense of like, if you are hearing

this and you're like, I, I really like different aspects of what you're

saying, what you're talking about, and.

Convictions and boundaries to set those things up, to make your relationship

more prosperous and to not give more parts of your heart away to other people.

And cuz that's what happens, I think whenever we give different

physical, um, things to other people is different parts of our heart are.

Giving to that other person.

That's why people have said, whenever you have sex with other people, then

that's literally you're binding yourself and you're literally binding your

heart to all of these different people.

How the Lord did not intend that to be.

So as far as like, um, good parameters, I feel like that Drew and I have grown a

lot in this and like even at the beginning of our relationship has looked so much

different than it does now because the thing with boundaries is it always grows.

It always.

Into something else.

Cuz you have to be communicative about it.

You have to know where you're at currently and you also have to get to the place

where you communicate well about it.

You have to get to the place where you talk and you communicate.

Cuz again, communication is key.

And so like parameters, like we used to, um, this is like a small example,

but Drew and I, early on in our relationship, we used to watch movies.

Oh my goodness.

I am such a movie person and so is he.

So used to watch movies and stuff like that.

But then it got to the point where like as our relationship has progressed and

we love each other more, then we just found ourselves, It's kind of putting

our mind, It's like minds in a harder place of like, okay, being in a mo, like

just watching a movie with you like.

Alone in the dark, like, you know, up on the couch up in my media room.

It's like that might not put us in the best mentality as far as like making

that desire harder and making those desires for other things stronger.

So we then decided, we were like, Okay, so that we're not like struggling mentally

when we're together watching movies.

We decided to stop watching movies alone.

We decided to get more accountability with that, and we decided to watch movies

like with my family or with his family.

It's little things like that, and I would say if you're listening and you

want some practical steps to, First off, I would say evaluate where you're at,

evaluate who you are and what you might struggle with, and different aspects

on you of where your heart can get hurt and things that have hurt you in the

past that might help you create better convictions and boundaries going forward.

And also talking to the Lord and asking him what is his desire for your future

relationships, What is his desire for.

In a relationship with a boyfriend or a girlfriend or a wife or husband,

whatever that might look like.

And what are things that I can do to get better to achieve this goal?

And also, if you are in a relationship and you're like, I wanna start a new, I want

us to have new boundaries, and nobody's saying it's gonna be easy, cuz it is hard.

It is hard waiting.

Anybody that's ever waited will say it was, it was hard,

but it was worth the wait.

That's like the key thing that everybody always says is it's worth the wait.

And I think that with that, What are you gonna do to get to that common goal?

Like what are you gonna talk about?

What are you gonna set yourself up for success?

Cause sometimes it's not just physical, sometimes it's also like

emotional in what you're talking about, because we can get emotional,

I mean, ties to someone as well.

And so it's like, what is our conversation?

Like, how can we change our conversation?

Um, are we gonna be by ourselves in his room, her room, um, a movie room?

Are we gonna be home alone?

Things you have to ask yourself.

And like Drew and I, we are not home alone together ever.

We have tried to make sure, again, it's not that, Oh, if someone is not

home, then we're gonna do something.

But it's, we're trying to set ourselves up for success to

where that's not even a thought.

And again, we've had a lot of growth in that.

We've learned that it's not always the physical aspect, but it's

where we are mentally because the mental will eventually lead to

physical if it's not kept in check.

And so we have just really, really tried to keep that on

the forefront of our minds.

And also another key element, and this might sound really stupid to some

people, but we have found that in our relationship, if any time that it's

like hard, you know, kind of like it might be harder for him in a moment, or

might be like just kind of like there's a, you know, that that desire is more

there, then we stop and pray together.

And I really think that that is, A good way to keep it back to Christ.

And some people might say, Well, that's, you know, that's

a hyperreligious thing to do.

But really, if you're doing a conviction and if you're like looking at your

conviction to serve the Lord and to do what's best for you, and you're trying

to honor him in your relationship, I so recommend that because it

completely changes your mindset and it completely just reroutes it back to,

okay, what is our common goal here?

Again, it's the reminder of.

What are we?

Why are we even saving ourselves?

Why are we doing the things we're doing?

It's because we have a conviction.

We felt that conviction, and I wanna serve the Lord in how I act.

I don't wanna just do it in our relationship.

I wanna do it daily, and I do fall short daily of different things.

But it's that striving to honor the Lord in the different ways

that we interact with one another.

Well, setting yourself up to alleviate a, again, it doesn't mean.

A person will always be successful in whatever facet, but it's trying to remove

potential pitfalls and temptations.

And I love, you know, you talk about giving your heart.

I, I think some people, um, I hope they, they, they grasp onto that because this

is more than just a, an issue of giving your body, it's giving your heart.

And, uh, it is, those soul ties, those emotional ties, which quite

frankly run way deeper than just coming together of body parts.

Well, wrapping this thing up, Caitlin, uh, kind of coming to a close here.

I want to go back to where we very first got started.

Um, you talked about, you made the comment, religion versus relat.

You know, I, I just don't want people to hear the podcast today

and go, Okay, you know, this is just another religious mandate.

This is just another religious protocol.

When you said that your convictions stemmed from a relationship, not

a religion, if you could explain.

Um, I definitely think that with religion it can be a, what you do

and what you don't do and what you're doing to like, oh, be a good Christian,

or be a bad Christian, or, you know, all of those like, um, logistic things as

far as like the legality behind that.

And I think that with a relationship, when you have a relationship with

the Lord and you're genuinely seeking that out, it's not about

what the dos and the don'ts, it's.

With a heart change, you will have a production of good fruit from that.

And when you genuinely wanna do what's right and you genuinely

wanna search for the things of the Lord and you want him to put the.

The fruits of the spirit within you and all that kind of good stuff.

Like then with that, then that is the fruit that's getting produced.

Like you're gonna wanna do those things.

And that's what people tell me is like, well, like, I

mean, do I, can I not do this?

Can I not do that?

Like, I mean, I really want to, but whenever we look at it and we are

like, This, I want my heart to change.

Then our desires for those things will not be as present as they were

before because with a relationship with the Lord, it is dying to our flesh.

It's dying and letting go of the things of that we want cuz everything a part of our

flesh, we are, we are have a sin nature.

So we wanna go to the things of the world.

We wanna go against what the Holy Spirit is within us, cuz the Holy Spirit within.

Is trying to renew our minds daily.

He's trying to change us and form us and give us light and life and joy,

and hope in the hard struggles of life.

And I think that when we can.

Really try to pour in and focus in on that.

It's again, not about being perfect.

I really, really stress that so heavily because I know for me personally,

I can deal with a perfection level.

Like cuz I feel like that I try to strive, I wanna do the best that I can do.

I wanna do just everything that I can possibly like match up and

measure up on, wanna do what the Lord's calling me to do X, Y, or Z.

But in sometimes we just fall.

Some days are bad days.

Sometimes we get mad and angry in traffic and, and I think that there is,

again, God is a God of grace, but when you have the desire to do what's right,

then the fruit will flow from that.

It's the desires of our heart, and when we are desiring the things of the

Lord, then the desires to go out and drink with your buddies or the desire.

To, I mean, do drugs.

And I'm not saying that all sexual desire is gone, and I'm not saying

all addiction desire is all of a sudden, I mean, miraculously gone.

It can be, but sometimes it is a healing process and sometimes it is a growth

and a learning in a daily surrender.

And that's what I think it boggles down to is just the fact that we

have to daily surrender ourselves in.

Renew our minds with Christ and like, how is today gonna be?

Because we're not promised tomorrow.

And so how can we go forward today being the best version of ourselves

and asking the Lord how he can transform us in our daily lives?

Okay,

Well, less but not least.

And that what you just said.

That makes sense to people who are believers that, that

they, they, they understand.

When we talk about the Holy Spirit, we talk about leadings and convictions.

They get that.

But what about the person today, Caitlin?

That man, everything you just said makes no sense.

They, they have no idea what it mean when you talk about relationship.

They understand what it means to go to church.

They understand what it means to be religious, to wear a label.

But what about those people today that may be listening, that, that tuned in and.

I don't even, I don't even understand all that because I don't even

know how to begin a relationship.

I mean, how do I even, how do I even have God in my life caly?

How does somebody come to know Christ?

I mean, how does somebody have a relationship?

How does that even begin?

Um, I, I really love that question because it's so, Much more simple

than what people try to make it out to be.

They try to make it this very complicated thing of like, Oh Christ the Holy Spirit,

you know Jesus, all that kind of stuff.

When really it is so simple that it's really just

recognizing that we are sinful.

It's recognizing that we have a sin nature that.

Hey, you might desire to go out and to drink and get completely drunk.

You might desire to go have sex with your boyfriend or girlfriend, and

it's understanding that we have a natural, sinful desire, but that.

Jesus died on the cross for us and to bridge that gap.

So he died on the cross so that you don't have to carry the weight of the world.

You don't have to carry the weight of your sins.

You, when you ask the Lord to come into your heart, which is a very simple thing.

All it is, is understanding that you're a sinner and in need of a savior.

That's what it boggles down to, is just the fact that.

You need the Lord and you need Jesus.

And you recognize the fact that he died on the cross for your sins.

And when you pray that prayer and you recognize that, then the

Lord just completely comes in and covers you with grace and love and.

Just peace, honestly, because he's there to love you.

He is not there to condemn you.

He's not there to wag his finger in your face and say all the things

that you've done wrong and how undeserving you are as a person.

God is there to just give love because he made you and he loves you so immensely.

As a generic thing with the whole relationship conversation and

boundaries and all that kind of stuff.

These are not just religious things.

These are things that will uplift you in your daily life to practice

these things now and to practice.

To just practice good boundaries and finding out what your convictions

are as a person and to practice and harness like different aspects of

your relationship with the Lord.

These are getting you and these are good foundational things that will.

In everyday life, there's things that will not make you a slave to your sin.

This is not a, these are not to keep you in shackles or in chains to the

bondage that can just pile on us as we live life and the mistakes that we make.

Cause we all have made mistakes.

But God is so good to forgive and he's so good to be there with

big arms just to wrap us up and tell us how much he loves us.

So that's my biggest thing for him.

This is, I just wanna be an encouragement and influence.

To everybody listening that you can do it.

Like anything that you set your mind to, you can do with the strength of the Lord.

God loves you and he wants the very best for you, and he wants

you to live a, an amazing, joyful.

Victorious life.

And so that's why I share this story and I share where Drew and I have come from

in our relationship, not as a, we are holier than now, but in a encouragement

that no matter where you've been, no matter what you've done, no matter what

you have done in a relationship, and you think that you're too far gone,

you're not, you are not too far gone.

Cuz you can start today, you can start tomorrow.

And it's making those steps and it's saying, you know what,

I am a, I am a sinful person.

Sin in the past, but God, I'm laying these sins at your feet and I'm asking

for your forgiveness and strength to go into these next days, weeks,

months, years in victory in these certain areas that I struggle with.

And that's ultimately where I bring it all back to is because God is so,

so good in, we are all not worth, I mean, the love that he gives

us, but he gives it to us anyway.

And so that is the whole message behind it.

Well, the bottom

line is we're all damaged goods.

All of us, and I love the fact that what you said, it, it, it's so simple.

I mean, it's so simple.

I think it's so simple that a lot of people stumble over it and

it, it's at its most basic level, it's, I need Christ because I

need forgiveness, because I need.

Because I need salvation and that Jesus Christ is not one of many ways.

I don't go to the airport and just jump on any airplane because

they all lead to the same place.

I get on the right plane to the right destination, and

Jesus Christ is the only plane.

And he says that if you're willing to believe, not just believe in your head,

but believe to the point of that you're willing to put your faith and trust in.

That not only will he give you a ticket to heaven, that's great, but he'll

give you a new life, a new beginning, a new start, and he will forgive you

and it, it will be a relationship.

And, and at its core, it's Romans 10 13.

It's so simple.

Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

I know the night that I met Christ.

It wasn't anything fancy.

My prayers would not have impressed anybody.

I just knew that Jesus Christ died for me, and I knew that doing things on my own,

living my own way of life was not working.

And I knew that I wanted forgiveness.

I knew I wanted a new start, and I believed that he was the only

way I truly believed that 2000 years ago, he was executed for me.

I believe that he loved.

And I believe that he wanted to change me.

And so that night, in my weakest moment in the most unipress, unimpressive,

simple prayer, I called out and said, Jesus, come into my life.

And I meant it with everything that I was.

And even though it wasn't impressive, even though I didn't have a lot

of Bible knowledge, all I knew was Jesus died and I want him in my life.

I knew I couldn't change my life.

I tried to change my life.

I knew I couldn't quit doing the things that I wanted to quit

doing because it never lasted.

But I believe that he could give me the help to do that, and I believe

that because of that relationship that you developed, Christ at an early age

has helped formulate you to where you.

It's helped you be the leader that you are.

It's helped you to be the voice that you are.

And I'm super proud of you.

You know, I'd here in just in a few months.

Uh, Caitlin's gonna be going, uh, into the mission field.

She's gonna be joining up with ywam and, uh, she's got a heart for evangelism.

She's got a heart to help other people, which is why she's on the podcast today.

She wants to use her story, not to elevate herself up to be somebody better

than anybody else, or somebody that has it all together, but just simply saying

that because Jesus Christ is in my life, he's enabling me to do some things.

And he's preparing me to do some things and enabling me in a way that I

might not otherwise be able to do it.

Caitlin, very last of all, how can people connect with you?

I know you're very active on social media.

You got a TikTok account, I believe you're on.

I know you're on in.

I followed you on Instagram.

How can people connect

with you?

Yes, I have an Instagram, Facebook, pretty much any like, um, Instagram

type, like social media you can think of.

But yes, I have a TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, and that's all Caitlin O'Neill.

And for my Instagram, it's Caitlin dot O'Neill, um, k

a y t l i n dot o n e a l l.

If you wanna go look that up, if you wanna go check out me on social

media and just kind of follow along my journey, I am gonna be doing.

Updates and that kind of thing with, um, me being in the mission field

as far as with why Wham and doing Youth with a Mission in Kona, Hawaii.

I'm very excited that I'm leaving January 5th, 2023.

And so I'm so excited about that.

And um, if you wanna check out more about that, then go find me on social

media and check out my tick docs.

And the original videos.

But I'm so appreciative of being on this podcast and sharing all of this with

you, and it's such a passion and desire on my heart, and I really hope that this

uplifted you and encouraged you in just all of the ways that the Lord wants to

bless you in your own personal life.

Super proud

of you.