Bringing Newforma to the Cloud

Randall Stevens: 00:00:00

Welcome to another Confluence podcast.

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I'm Randall Stephens.

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And as usual, I have Evan joining me

and today our guest is Carl Veillette.

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welcome Carl.

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Carl's from, uh, a company that many

of us have known in the AC industry

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for many years called Newforma.

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Carl is actually a relative

newcomer to that team.

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His company, BIMTRAC, was

acquired back in: 2021

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And now Carl is running the

product show over there.

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So we're very happy to

have you on here, Carl.

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Carl Veillette: Happy to be here.

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Randall Stevens: Great.

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Um, so with that just a little bit

queued up, maybe you can give everybody

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who's not familiar with BIM Track

a little bit of, your background

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and history, how that came about.

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And then, um, and then you can talk

about what this evolution has been,

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uh, with, with now that you're part

of the Newforma family, um, just

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where, where you guys are going with

the combination of these products.

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Carl Veillette: Great.

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So, um, I guess like, uh, you know,

starting, uh, starting from the beginning,

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um, my background is architecture.

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So, uh, I've, I've worked as a

designer in the industry for,

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for quite, quite some years.

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Um, and then in 2013 we decided to,

uh, um, create a company for, um, BIM

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Consulting to help the industry, uh, adopt

the newest and greatest technologies.

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So, um, BIM one was, uh, developing,

you know, add-ons and, uh, for, um,

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improving the life of the people

working in inside BIM and CAD software.

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So we were developing

add-ins for Revit and.

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Uh, other different platforms.

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And then, um, on one of the consulting

projects we had, uh, we, um, we, uh,

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we decided to, uh, start developing

an issue or an issue management

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or a task management system, uh,

fully cloud based to help with the

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coordination effort on the project.

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So, uh, this, uh, later became BIM Track.

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Uh, so we released BIM Track.

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It was in.

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I would say 2016, um, and

then, uh, instantly like we got

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traction all over the globe.

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Like people were buying into it and

we're solving really a challenge

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in terms of, uh, Uh, workflow

and getting issues resolved, not

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just, uh, uh, detected, right?

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So, uh, tying, uh, multiple pieces

of, of software together, um, think

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about, uh, Navisworks and, and Revit.

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And, and then later we added

AutoCAD and Civil Treaty and a

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bunch of other different software.

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So, um, that's kind of like, uh, you

know, how, uh, BIM Trackk, uh, was born.

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And, uh, throughout the years between,

uh,: 2016

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we had a consistent growth, you know,

with the platform and, um, uh, a lot of

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customers around the globe, uh, leveraging

the platform for, for BIM coordination.

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And, uh, at some point, uh, we had

a bigger vision in how we can solve

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problems of the industry and, uh, we

decided to, uh, join forces with Newforma.

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So.

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Uh, a little bit of

history about Newforma.

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So, Newforma has been on the,

uh, providing solution for the

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industry for about 20 years now.

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Um, so we started back in

: 2004

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software, um, editor, right?

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So, uh, a lot of the initial founding

team came from, uh, from the industry, uh,

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wanted to do things differently, build a

project delivery platform of the future.

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Um, and from 2004.

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Um, all the way to, uh, today, um,

we managed to grow the platform new

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from our project center, um, which

is, uh, an on prem solution to, I

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would say, about 17 million projects

managed inside the platform today.

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Um, so that's, uh, quite

a reach in the industry.

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Um, so we were there before many

other, uh, you know, software

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vendors that are now offering,

you know, project management,

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information management, uh, solutions.

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Um, so I would say we're, we basically

pioneered the project information

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management software category.

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Um, and then when COVID hit

in, I would say: 2021

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Um, so there's like a lot of people

that are looking for a cloud first,

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web first, uh, through native.

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Uh, for new from our project center.

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Um, so we're getting a lot of

pressure from our customer base

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to come up with a solution, right?

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And that is, uh, one of the reason why we

acquired BIM Track, uh, because BIM Track

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was already scaling across the globe.

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We had data centers in many different

regions, a strong platform to build

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upon, uh, for a SAS based version of our,

uh, new from a project center platform.

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And, um, and then, um, we, we shared

a similar DNA, if I would say.

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We're both solving issues of the

industry, uh, in terms of like

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workflow connectedness, right?

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How we're connecting different

software solutions together

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and streamlining workflows.

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Um, so BenchVac was looking at issue,

uh, issue management, action items.

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Uh, it had some, um, interesting

2D and 3D viewing capabilities also

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built in a, in a browser, right?

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And And then New Forma Project Center,

uh, comes with the depth of functionality

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for contract administration, file

sharing, email management, and,

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and, and much more than that, right?

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So we needed to find a solution

to bring those things into a cloud

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platform and, and that's what we've

en, uh, working on since, uh,: 2021

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And, uh, just last year, uh, in June,

we've released, uh, New Forma Connect,

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which is a rebrand Track platform.

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And it now includes document

control, uh, the 2D, 3D viewing

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capabilities, uh, BIM coordination,

um, issue tracking, RFI submittals

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management, uh, email management,

file sharing capabilities, connection

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with various, uh, EDMS platforms.

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So we've got a wide ecosystem

of, of different connectors

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now built in the solution.

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So I would say we've probably got the most

connected, Uh, solution in the market.

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We have over 40 different connectors

ranging from AR to VR to Outlook

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emails, you know, and Microsoft

SharePoint and, um, and, and so on,

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and connecting all the way, um, to the,

uh, CAD and BIM software people use to

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produce drawings and things like that.

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So, uh, we're, we're, we're trying

to be the kind of the master

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aggregator of project information.

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We're not trying to replace,

uh, the people, uh, the tools,

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the tools that people use.

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So I like to think about us more of, um,

as a, as a central view of the information

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rather than trying to replicate all the

functionalities that all the, the software

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have in your tech, in your tech stack.

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So, um, we do that through the

connectors with Procore also, and, and

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many platforms that, uh, uh, we have

connectivity, connectivity built with.

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Randall Stevens: So with the, uh,

with the bringing together of the

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two solutions, how did you all,

how did you decide when to migrate?

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Um, you know, existing code or existing

functionality versus build something new.

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So like your, your new connect, was

that whole cloth, uh, taking, taking

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the BIM track code now and just,

just rebranding, or were you actually

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rewriting parts of that to work

better with the, uh, project center

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functionality?

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Carl Veillette: Yeah, so

that's a really good question.

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I mean, there's, there's

many different angles to it.

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I mean, at the time of the Demitrak

acquisition, we were, um, actually

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developing a cloud solution, right?

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Um, so our efforts had already started.

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So, um, our New Format Connect

platform, uh, currently runs,

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uh, on both Microsoft and AWS.

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So we've got a multi cloud backend.

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Uh, so some of the functionalities run on

AWS, some of the functionalities run on.

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on Microsoft, everything

is, um, regionalized,

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Randall Stevens: Is that, is that,

Carl, is that mainly from a, uh, a,

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uh, Just choices that you're cut,

that the customers are making about

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which environment that they may

already be hosting some of their

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data, uh, AWS versus Microsoft.

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Carl Veillette: it's really just like

a go to market kind of play, right?

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Uh, we wanted to go to

market as fast as possible.

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So instead of rewriting everything

to make it on the same provider,

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um, we've decided to go to market

with, um, kind of rebuilding a

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UI on top of the two development

effort that we're going on.

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So it's all unified.

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Connect, kind of connect them together.

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Um, but without kind of necessarily

changing, um, the, the cloud providers.

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So now we're leveraging the best

services for the best tasks to execute.

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I would say if it's on anybody,

us, or if it's on Microsoft, right.

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So,

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uh, some of the most exciting development

we have going on on AI or on Microsoft,

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uh, for the reasons we all know.

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Right.

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Um, but, uh, that's kind of like our, um,

Uh, our go to, uh, and, um, of course we,

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uh, take into consideration everything

that relates to, uh, data governance and,

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um, I would say data residency, right?

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So, uh, uh, everything, uh, remains

within the country of choice of

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our customers, even though we're,

uh, a multi cloud, um, platform.

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And I think I would say like, in terms

of like IP that, uh, we've, I guess we're

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used from, you from a project center.

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Quite an interesting question

because like, I mean, we've got

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the Outlook add in, um, that runs

on the latest technology, um,

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built for Newforma Project Center.

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So instead of like starting from scratch,

we basically fork the code and then

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we've started from there and then,

uh, evolve it in a slightly different

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direction with Newforma Connect, uh,

because of the nature or the speed

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at which we're moving with the, the

new platform, um, and all of that.

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But, um, We've, uh, reused quite, quite

some, some of the code and decided to

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break, you know, the development path so

that we can evolve at different speed.

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And yeah, that's it.

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Randall Stevens: So maybe, uh, maybe

describe a little bit about what does

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that, what does that team look like

you all brought, brought together to,

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I'm assuming dev teams came together

and, uh, are wrestled over who

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whose code was going to win and, uh,

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what, what does that look like?

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What did that look like when you were

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Carl Veillette: Yeah.

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Well, it's kind of an

interesting story, right?

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Because you think you would think, uh,

you know, the, the, the large, um, you

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know, US company that's been there for 20

years, American company, buying company

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in a very French part of Canada, right.

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It would take over and then.

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Uh, let go all the, the employees,

uh, you know, here, and that's

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not really what happened.

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It was, uh, I think a really,

really good blend and a joint effort

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in bringing the teams together.

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And then, um, I think the story on what,

what, what we're building, um, for the

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industry is, and has, and is still, you

know, very exciting for, for our team.

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And that's why they stick around.

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And so we grew the team

from, I think we were about.

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Around 60, 60 people into

the engineering team.

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And then we grew it, we grew

it up to 120 in 18 months.

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Um, so, uh, you know,

through the acquisition.

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So that's a pretty big achievement and

having, you know, the expertise, the

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cloud expertise we had with Ventrac,

mixed with the, I would say the legacy

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knowledge on, on the functionalities we've

built, we've built new from our project

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and it's, it's a really, uh, uh, good

partnership, you know, we've built, you

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know, bringing those expertise together.

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And, uh, as a result, you know, the speed

at which we came up with a new platform

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and the speed at which we're, we're

delivering right now, I mean, there's

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like dozens of new functionalities rolling

out every quarter, uh, in the platform.

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So I think some of our customers

have really started to notice it.

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The, the settings is setting

speed of increased quite a bit.

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Um, so, uh, I think it's refreshing

for a lot of our customers to see that.

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Um, and, um, Yeah, I think, uh, you know,

the secret to that, I guess, is, uh,

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transparency with the staff, you know,

on the plans and, um, how, you know, um,

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the, which type of opportunities they

have, you know, working on the cloud

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product and, and, um, you know, Pretty

proud of the team, you know, uh, the

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level of collaboration that's been going

on and really no pushback on decisions.

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So, uh, um, it's, uh, it's

a good, uh, we've got a good

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synergy going on, I would say.

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Yeah.

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Yep.

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Evan Troxel: I ask, before the transition

happened, I mean, it seems like COVID.

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really pushed you, pushed Newforma

into this situation, right?

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I mean, everybody going to work from

home, we all found ourselves at that

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point in architecture offices, going

from an architecture office of, you

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know, five offices to 350 offices.

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All of a sudden, you know, offices

of one, as it were, and really

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having to collaborate in the cloud.

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And, and so I'm just interested from

like a, external pressure point of view.

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Newforma was obviously in a position,

I guess, to, to make a decision.

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Are we going to develop this

ourselves or are we going to acquire

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something that's already baked to

some extent and start rolling it out?

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So I'm, I'm just interested in kind of

the story from that and like how that

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decision was made, cause I'm sure that

they felt pressure to move quickly.

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But then also my question really is

around speed and development time,

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because I think a lot of people.

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have feature requests, and they have ideas

that they, things they need software to

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do, and they just take time to do, right?

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And they don't magically appear.

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And, and so, if you could just kind of

speak to it from a, a time perspective

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of, you know, there's this immense

pressure all of a sudden, we've got

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to get people working in the cloud.

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We've got to get collaboration happening.

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Obviously, that's an issue.

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Newforma, previous to that, you know,

maybe I'm wrong, but it was pretty much

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an on prem solution, like you said.

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So maybe they're still VPNing

in and they're just using it.

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through the, through the pipes

that exist, but, you know, it's

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not, maybe as a, a great of an

experience as a cloud based platform.

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So maybe you can just talk around

that side of things, because I'm,

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I'm interested as, as a company is

making decisions about development

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and user feedback and external

pressure, architects are no strangers

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to external pressure, right?

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They're, they're the ones usually

pushing a firm's technology more from

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the outside than we are from within.

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in, in, in many cases.

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So just curious to hear

what, what happened.

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Carl Veillette: So I think it's

interesting because the feedback

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we used to get prior to COVID is,

Our customers really like on prem

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because they own their data, right?

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So the sentiment of like owning their

actual data and that data residing

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within their own environment was, um,

I think the reason why everybody was

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going for you from a project center.

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And then when, when COVID hit, I

guess a bunch of other challenges

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came up with, with that, right?

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So, uh, VPN access, as

you mentioned, right?

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And people working from home.

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Uh, having to connect into the

solution, having to make sure that,

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uh, there's a secure, um, connection,

uh, to get access to the data.

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Right.

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Um, and that really,

really changed the tone.

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I mean, at the time we were already

developing a cloud, uh, a cloud solution.

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Uh, it was called new from a cloud.

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And, uh, we had a lighthouse program

going on and some customers were

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already adopters of that cloud

only, SaaS only solution, right?

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Um, but in a, in a clap, just like a

finger clap, just like that, you know,

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COVID hit, and then all of that needs

to happen at a much faster speed.

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Right.

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So, uh, when I say much faster,

it's like, uh, we're going to find

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like, like solutions to replace, and

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Evan Troxel: We need it now.

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Carl Veillette: 12, like 12

months kind of thing, right?

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So, um, so there comes, you know,

the BIM Tracker Precision, right.

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Which is a solution to that.

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And then, uh, customers obviously

trusted us because they've been

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trusting us for 20 years, right?

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So, uh, they're not just going

to change systems just like that.

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Uh, so when they saw that we started

moving at a different speed, uh, we

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really got confidence that we're going

to deliver on the plan that, uh, we've

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communicated to the customers and, um,

collaboration coming from them, right?

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On, you know, what we should

build next, how we should

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build, how we should build it.

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What, what we should do different, you

know, because we've been doing that

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for 20 years, the space has changed.

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Microsoft teams did not exist back then.

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Right.

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Um, now you've got information

in many different silos, silos

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that were not there 20 years ago.

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Right.

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So maybe there's opportunity for

opportunities for more connectors.

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And so in addition to deciding to

merge new form of cloud development

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and Ben track, uh, which, which was.

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How we got to market so

fast with the new platform.

292

: 00:17:10

Uh, we also got the new ownership.

293

: 00:17:12

So last, last year, the

beginning of the year, uh, we

294

: 00:17:15

were acquired by Ethos Capital.

295

: 00:17:16

So with Ethos comes, um, a mindset

of growth, uh, so pouring, uh, a lot

296

: 00:17:22

more money into engineering and that's

how we kind of scale and evolve a

297

: 00:17:25

team to, uh, to reach, uh, you know,

120 people on the development team.

298

: 00:17:30

Um, so that's the biggest development

team we've, we've ever had at Newforma.

299

: 00:17:34

Um, so, uh, Uh, that's kind of like,

uh, you know, how we, we landed the

300

: 00:17:39

product and, uh, and now we've got,

uh, we've got around, I would say

301

: 00:17:45

500 customers, um, on, on Newforma

Connect, uh, leveraging the platform for

302

: 00:17:51

everything that's ranging from contract

administration to, uh, file shares, BIM

303

: 00:17:56

coordination and, uh, and all of that.

304

: 00:17:59

So, um, I think, uh, Uh, we're on a really

good, uh, on a really good trajectory

305

: 00:18:04

and journey to, uh, deliver something

that's going to be game changing for, um,

306

: 00:18:10

improving the project delivery process,

uh, of the architects, engineers, and

307

: 00:18:14

general contractors, uh, industry.

308

: 00:18:16

And I think that's interesting also

because BIM Track really had a good mix

309

: 00:18:20

of architects, engineers, and general

contractors that we were kind of serving.

310

: 00:18:24

Uh, through the BIM needs, the BIM

centric needs, um, and from a project

311

: 00:18:29

center was more architects and engineers.

312

: 00:18:32

So now with this new platform, we're

kind of serving the three segments of

313

: 00:18:35

the industry, which is, uh, opening

up a lot of opportunities for more

314

: 00:18:39

connected workflows, I would say.

315

: 00:18:42

Evan Troxel: There's something that

interesting here, and, and I think

316

: 00:18:44

this applies to both of you because

Randall, the work that you've, things

317

: 00:18:48

that you've said about Avail is like,

you don't care where the data is.

318

: 00:18:52

You, you want people

to be able to find it.

319

: 00:18:54

so the idea of, this being a window

I think you said that the single

320

: 00:18:59

source of truth, you're trying

to be a window into it, right?

321

: 00:19:02

So maybe both of you can kind of

talk from that perspective because

322

: 00:19:06

you also mentioned like the tons

of silos that do exist that didn't

323

: 00:19:09

used to exist, but everybody stashes

stuff somewhere and they don't always

324

: 00:19:13

stash it in the same place, right?

325

: 00:19:14

And so just as a strategy and an approach,

how do you think about that from as a

326

: 00:19:20

window rather than a, than a repository?

327

: 00:19:23

Randall Stevens: Yeah, maybe, uh,

maybe I'll take a stab at that,

328

: 00:19:26

Carl, and then get your thoughts.

329

: 00:19:27

But, you know, from our,

from our perspective, um, you

330

: 00:19:32

know, you can't do everything.

331

: 00:19:33

And this is, these are complicated,

um, workflows and a lot, you know, as

332

: 00:19:38

even as Carl was kind of, you know,

describing all the different things in

333

: 00:19:43

that process, it's like, it's hard to be.

334

: 00:19:46

the best at every one of those.

335

: 00:19:48

So from our standpoint, um, you

know, we look at it as there are

336

: 00:19:54

going to be some things that we

want to be the best in the world at.

337

: 00:19:59

And then There's a bunch of things

then that we just want to support

338

: 00:20:03

and there's other best of breed

tools that are out there for that.

339

: 00:20:06

It doesn't mean that you can't use our

tools for that, but the recognition

340

: 00:20:11

is, Hey, there's already leaders

in those and customers have already

341

: 00:20:15

chosen those maybe as system of truth

around certain parts of their process.

342

: 00:20:20

So we, we look at it as let's, let's

be really good at certain things and

343

: 00:20:26

then support, uh, The communication and

or connection to other best of breed

344

: 00:20:32

solutions and, and be ultimately a good

steward, uh, I would describe it a good

345

: 00:20:38

steward of the industry of, of not trying

to be everything to everybody, be really

346

: 00:20:45

good at what you do, and then support

connecting into that ecosystem in a way.

347

: 00:20:50

So that's the way we think about it.

348

: 00:20:54

Carl Veillette: it's, it's pretty

much the same for us too, right?

349

: 00:20:56

But I think we see an opportunity in the,

the cross vendors kind of workflow, right?

350

: 00:21:01

So each time there's, um, A change of

ownership in the technology, right?

351

: 00:21:07

Comes a need for creating, uh,

complete project records for the other

352

: 00:21:11

parties that are invited in there.

353

: 00:21:13

Um, and that's the gap we're,

we're, we're trying to fill.

354

: 00:21:16

So an example, I guess, of

that in our system, right?

355

: 00:21:19

, and it's a quite obvious one because

everybody can relate to that, right?

356

: 00:21:22

But we've got something to, um,

an experience here built that's

357

: 00:21:27

almost like, I guess I would use it.

358

: 00:21:31

the open CDE kind of, um,

terminology there, uh, to explain.

359

: 00:21:36

But we're tying into multiple

different data source, right?

360

: 00:21:39

So we're not syncing the files.

361

: 00:21:41

Like we're not syncing all the content

of your SharePoint in your organization,

362

: 00:21:45

where you may be authoring office,

you know, office documents, right?

363

: 00:21:50

Like Word, Excel, PowerPoint files.

364

: 00:21:52

Like if an architect is creating, um,

is writing specifications on SharePoint,

365

: 00:21:57

This is where they collaborate.

366

: 00:21:58

They may have two spec writers

working together in there.

367

: 00:22:01

We're not trying to replace

Microsoft, of course.

368

: 00:22:04

Um, same thing for Autodesk, right?

369

: 00:22:06

Like this is where your models

are going to live, right?

370

: 00:22:08

Because the models are co authored,

you know, in that location.

371

: 00:22:12

Like, like we're not going to be

competing with Autodesk on all of that.

372

: 00:22:15

But when it comes to sharing, a lot

of organization block external sharing

373

: 00:22:19

on the SharePoint and they, they,

they want to have more advanced,

374

: 00:22:22

you know, Retention policies set on

the file that they share externally.

375

: 00:22:25

They want to have more complete

history for sharing models

376

: 00:22:30

outside of Autodesk, right?

377

: 00:22:32

Um, maybe they're not going to be

fine with having the architects

378

: 00:22:36

and the GC working out of the

same account because guess what?

379

: 00:22:40

At the end of the project,

your access is revoked, then

380

: 00:22:43

you're left with nothing, right?

381

: 00:22:44

You don't have a copy of your own data.

382

: 00:22:46

So we keep, like we, like the way that

we orchestrate, orchestrate workflow

383

: 00:22:50

for something as easy as file sharing

is that you can tap into any of those

384

: 00:22:55

locations, you know, on your SharePoint,

on your Autodesk account here, you can

385

: 00:22:59

access, you know, your files and then you

can share them from one single location.

386

: 00:23:04

So you can pick some files that live

in different places and then have a

387

: 00:23:08

full record of, of those files share.

388

: 00:23:10

We don't know that the

files who have seen them.

389

: 00:23:13

So when you get into litigation

at the end of project, you've got

390

: 00:23:16

full track record of everything.

391

: 00:23:19

Um, so we're kind of creating

that, that unified process for

392

: 00:23:23

people that otherwise struggle.

393

: 00:23:25

Like, do I share that with Box?

394

: 00:23:27

Do I share that with SharePoint?

395

: 00:23:28

Do I share that from my file

server over in an email attachment?

396

: 00:23:32

Right.

397

: 00:23:33

So now everything is unified all together.

398

: 00:23:35

Um, so that's kind of like the

umbrella that we're creating.

399

: 00:23:39

on top of the project and

it doesn't require syncing.

400

: 00:23:43

It doesn't require changing your tools.

401

: 00:23:45

It connects with your existing

tech stack, which makes it easier

402

: 00:23:48

from an adoption perspective.

403

: 00:23:52

And we use that, you know,

just the same way, right.

404

: 00:23:54

With, uh, action items and, and issues.

405

: 00:23:57

So When I explore, you know, um,

like we've got, you know, those add

406

: 00:24:01

ons that live inside the software

that people use, like this is an

407

: 00:24:05

example with Navisworks where people

use Navisworks for clash detection.

408

: 00:24:08

We're not a clash detection system.

409

: 00:24:11

We're, we're managing the clashes.

410

: 00:24:13

We're helping people group and assign

them and track them until resolution

411

: 00:24:18

in a different environment, like Revit,

where those things need to be solved.

412

: 00:24:21

So we've got the same.

413

: 00:24:22

So, we're going to be adding in there,

that lives in there and in a single click

414

: 00:24:27

we can retrieve the issue locations.

415

: 00:24:29

So that's kind of the idea of

not replacing but integrating

416

: 00:24:32

with the tools, the day to day

tools that people are using.

417

: 00:24:36

Um, we're not, you know, we're not,

um, uh, an email, um, an email tool per

418

: 00:24:43

se, right, but, uh, we create, um, We

create a shared inbox for the project

419

: 00:24:50

team to collaborate and track items.

420

: 00:24:52

So, um, we're not replacing Outlook.

421

: 00:24:55

We're integrating with Outlook, right?

422

: 00:24:57

So we've got this new format connect

added in there, and you can turn emails

423

: 00:25:01

into action items that can be tracked

and assigned with due date, or you can

424

: 00:25:05

turn an email into something RFI, a

submittal, and help log the information in

425

: 00:25:11

a project, makes it, make it searchable.

426

: 00:25:14

Um, and, uh, you know, fast forward

those, those, those activities basically.

427

: 00:25:19

So that's kind of like the idea behind,

um, behind not being a single source

428

: 00:25:24

of truth, but instead providing a

view into the information that lives

429

: 00:25:28

in different repositories, I guess.

430

: 00:25:31

Evan Troxel: And this gives you additional

insight, I would assume, because you are

431

: 00:25:34

this umbrella, as you called it, right?

432

: 00:25:37

And you get to see into

all these different things.

433

: 00:25:39

Does that give you the opportunity to

then to create interesting linkages

434

: 00:25:44

that maybe we haven't seen before?

435

: 00:25:45

I think you mentioned something

about connecting email to BIM, right?

436

: 00:25:48

Like in the model.

437

: 00:25:50

And so, like, this is a new thing to me.

438

: 00:25:53

Like, I haven't, I haven't, I've heard

of this before, but I, to me, you being

439

: 00:25:58

in the position that you're in affords

you the ability to start to implement

440

: 00:26:01

interesting tool hookups like these.

441

: 00:26:04

Carl Veillette: Yeah, exactly.

442

: 00:26:05

And, uh, I think, you know, uh, to

this point, like we've managed to,

443

: 00:26:08

you know, to find locations in emails

and then link those locations with the

444

: 00:26:14

BIM environment automatically, right?

445

: 00:26:16

Without any human intervention

on this relates to this, right?

446

: 00:26:21

Um, and when people thought that emails

were going away, they're actually not.

447

: 00:26:25

Like the projects are getting more

448

: 00:26:26

complex, right?

449

: 00:26:28

There's more stakeholders involved.

450

: 00:26:30

Um, like emails are, are growing.

451

: 00:26:34

Like I, I saw statistics on

emails recently and, uh, it said,

452

: 00:26:38

you know, an average person,

like, um, go in their inbox.

453

: 00:26:41

I think it's like 20, 20

times a day kind of thing.

454

: 00:26:45

Right.

455

: 00:26:46

So, um, you, you've got disconnect, right?

456

: 00:26:49

You've got information flowing

through the traditional communication

457

: 00:26:52

channels with project managers

and lead architects on projects.

458

: 00:26:56

And you've got the BIM folks

who are working completely

459

: 00:26:58

independently from that, running

their own coordination, right?

460

: 00:27:01

Possibly both parties are answering

the same issues on the project, um, not

461

: 00:27:06

talking too much with each other because

of the, you know, some people may not be

462

: 00:27:10

tech savvy and able to leverage, like,

open up 3D models and navigate in there.

463

: 00:27:15

So, BIM's a really, really great

communication tool, visual communication

464

: 00:27:21

tool, uh, if people don't, cannot,

cannot access to it, then Um, um, uh,

465

: 00:27:28

fine information, fine information,

contextualize it in the context

466

: 00:27:31

of other project activities, like

contract administration, they're

467

: 00:27:34

not going to benefit from it.

468

: 00:27:35

Right.

469

: 00:27:36

So how can we actually, like, we're

in a position where we can bring those

470

: 00:27:39

things together and we can tie, you

know, RFIs and submittals and then,

471

: 00:27:44

um, have a more model centric approach

to resolving those things, right?

472

: 00:27:49

What if you could see RFIs and

submittals on your model, right?

473

: 00:27:54

What if like you're, you're, you're

about to answer an RFI and then you can

474

: 00:27:58

just click and see, see it in 3D, right?

475

: 00:28:01

Um, so, so we, so this is,

this is the journey we're on.

476

: 00:28:06

We're, we're, we're reconnecting some of

the project activities, um, so that they,

477

: 00:28:10

they can be more, uh, design centric in

the way that they're getting resolved.

478

: 00:28:14

Uh, but also taking all the legacy of

how contract relationships, uh, have been

479

: 00:28:18

made in the past and still today, right?

480

: 00:28:20

Um, so, uh, that's, um, That's a really,

really exciting place to be, um, right now

481

: 00:28:27

because of those, um, those legacy, uh,

information that we've been, we've been

482

: 00:28:32

managing also that can provide insights.

483

: 00:28:34

And, uh, I was talking about

the AI, um, topic, right?

484

: 00:28:38

But with all the information we got

on those 17 million projects that

485

: 00:28:42

we manage, um, we can resurface

some, some really interesting, uh,

486

: 00:28:46

insights on, um, on, you know, answers

for certain of those activities.

487

: 00:28:53

Uh, or, uh, KPIs, uh, for, uh,

performance, you know, tracking, uh,

488

: 00:28:59

average time to resolve RFIs in the

industry for RFIs and submittals.

489

: 00:29:04

Um, are you, uh, abiding the

industry standards or are you

490

: 00:29:08

just, are you below, right?

491

: 00:29:10

Uh, those sort of things.

492

: 00:29:11

So a bit of benchmarking, but, uh,

most importantly, I think it's a,

493

: 00:29:14

it's a knowledge management thing

that we're providing because you look

494

: 00:29:18

at the labor shortage, uh, that the

industry is facing right now, those

495

: 00:29:21

challenges, um, population is aging,

people are retiring, there's a new

496

: 00:29:26

generation of people that come with

no experience, that knowledge transfer

497

: 00:29:29

needs to happen between the generations.

498

: 00:29:31

And because of all the information

that we make searchable.

499

: 00:29:34

Um, I think we play really a role into,

uh, transferring knowledge from, um, the

500

: 00:29:39

older to the, the newer, uh, generation, I

501

: 00:29:42

Evan Troxel: Hmm.

502

: 00:29:42

Randall Stevens: On the, back on

the email communication, obviously,

503

: 00:29:46

you know, Newforma, you know, was

one of the early pioneers of, you

504

: 00:29:52

know, tying in and understanding

that email was one of the main means

505

: 00:29:56

of communication in this industry.

506

: 00:29:59

It's, it's kind of interesting because I

assume that you're, I would have thought

507

: 00:30:02

that more communication is happening

now, you know, through Teams and Slack

508

: 00:30:07

across these than, than, email exchanges.

509

: 00:30:10

But are you?

510

: 00:30:12

Is that not true?

511

: 00:30:13

Or is it, is the, and is the total

512

: 00:30:15

volume of communication just

increasing in general across projects?

513

: 00:30:21

And is that because the

projects are getting larger

514

: 00:30:23

or what, what's driving that?

515

: 00:30:26

Carl Veillette: Yeah.

516

: 00:30:26

I, I think, uh, that's a, that's a

really interesting question because I

517

: 00:30:31

think what happened, when you think of

Microsoft Teams and the whole scheme of

518

: 00:30:34

things, it's relatively re, recent, right?

519

: 00:30:37

I think Microsoft Teams adoption have

been, Propel because of the COVID

520

: 00:30:41

you know, kind of thing again, right?

521

: 00:30:42

The remote work and people are

doing more video conference.

522

: 00:30:46

And, and so one of the cool

things that we, we did with, with

523

: 00:30:49

Microsoft Teams is we built a

524

: 00:30:51

connector into it because all those

communications that are happening after,

525

: 00:30:55

or during the meeting, you know, the

526

: 00:30:57

comment section in Microsoft Teams.

527

: 00:30:59

Um, and then, uh, those communications

might be internal, but also internal and

528

: 00:31:04

external, right?

529

: 00:31:04

So we might be, you may be an architect

jumping on a call with a GC, right?

530

: 00:31:09

And there is conversation in there

that could lead to litigation

531

: 00:31:12

at the end of the project.

532

: 00:31:13

I always like to say, you know,

the last phase of construction

533

: 00:31:15

project is litigation, right?

534

: 00:31:17

So you've got to get ready for it.

535

: 00:31:19

Um, so it's, it's, um, It's

exactly the problem we solve.

536

: 00:31:23

So we create an archive of the

Microsoft Teams conversation.

537

: 00:31:27

We index it and we make it searchable.

538

: 00:31:29

So the day that, you know, the

architect's got a litigation going on,

539

: 00:31:32

they can just search in the system and

then it will surface all the search

540

: 00:31:36

results from emails, RFIs, submittals,

conversations, conversations that have

541

: 00:31:40

happened in Teams, uh, uh, project

files, project files content, right?

542

: 00:31:46

Like that's our secret sauce.

543

: 00:31:47

Like we look into project files,

content and emails, attachment content.

544

: 00:31:52

DXF files, DWG files.

545

: 00:31:55

Uh, we look into, um, uh, DGN files.

546

: 00:31:59

Uh, so those are some of the CAD

file extensions that we support,

547

: 00:32:02

Microsoft Excel, PowerPoint.

548

: 00:32:04

So we provide more search result

than a Microsoft does, or we provide

549

: 00:32:07

more search result than anybody

else does in the industry, right?

550

: 00:32:11

So that's what, it seems something

very basic, like the ability

551

: 00:32:14

to search through information.

552

: 00:32:16

But it is a problem that should be top of

mind for a lot of people because your tech

553

: 00:32:21

stack is growing and there is more capital

investment in construction right now.

554

: 00:32:25

So there is more startups coming up,

which create additional data silos, right?

555

: 00:32:30

And, and people are getting

frustrated because they can't find

556

: 00:32:34

the information they're looking for.

557

: 00:32:35

Hence, I guess, the, the, the, the, the

additional communications because there's

558

: 00:32:40

miscommunication happening in emails,

miscommunication happening in teams,

559

: 00:32:44

what are you using to communicate, right?

560

: 00:32:46

So maybe the answers are getting answered

in two locations, so it's duplicated,

561

: 00:32:50

uh, conversations happening, right?

562

: 00:32:52

Um, so that, that's kind of like the,

I think, what I see is, is people don't

563

: 00:32:59

know which communication channel to,

to use and that's created, creating

564

: 00:33:02

additional communication as a result.

565

: 00:33:05

Randall Stevens: you, uh, are you,

uh, I haven't seen the way that you

566

: 00:33:08

all have are presenting this, but are

you able to weave, um, Are you able to

567

: 00:33:13

present the communication like on a time

based manner and weave together all the

568

: 00:33:20

different communication, I'll use the

word styles, whether it was a Zoom call.

569

: 00:33:26

or a team chat or an email exchange,

you know, that, that would seem to

570

: 00:33:31

be the new problem, which is, you

know, what happened when, right.

571

: 00:33:36

That's time based decision processes.

572

: 00:33:39

But, you know, I might've sent an email,

but then I'm jumping over here in teams

573

: 00:33:43

and having some other side conversation,

maybe even with the same person, uh,

574

: 00:33:47

you know, uh, but how do you all see

that and how is that being managed?

575

: 00:33:50

And what is, and maybe what

576

: 00:33:52

is the future?

577

: 00:33:52

What do you, you know, we can

talk a little bit of where do

578

: 00:33:54

you think that's going to go?

579

: 00:33:56

Is that.

580

: 00:33:57

Kind of,

581

: 00:33:58

Carl Veillette: yeah.

582

: 00:33:59

So I think that's a really

interesting, uh, topic because we're

583

: 00:34:03

of course capturing everything as

timestamp into our system, right?

584

: 00:34:06

Like we, we create full project records

with audit log and, um, I think like

585

: 00:34:12

what we, what we've, we've envisioned

is, is more of a timeline, as you

586

: 00:34:16

mentioned, kind of view where you'd be

able to slide into a specific moment of

587

: 00:34:21

the project and, um, Recall, you know,

a specific version of, of a specific

588

: 00:34:28

view into the project data that specific

589

: 00:34:30

Randall Stevens: a snapshot.

590

: 00:34:31

Yeah.

591

: 00:34:32

Carl Veillette: Kind of.

592

: 00:34:32

Yeah.

593

: 00:34:33

Like, I don't know if you've,

um, if you've tried, uh, there's

594

: 00:34:36

a, an interesting website that,

uh, I think it's called Wayback

595

: 00:34:40

Randall Stevens: Oh yeah.

596

: 00:34:40

Yeah.

597

: 00:34:41

For the

598

: 00:34:41

Carl Veillette: and then you can just

put any website in there and then go back

599

: 00:34:44

and have a snapshot of what it looked

600

: 00:34:46

like back then.

601

: 00:34:47

Right.

602

: 00:34:47

Um, so almost like something like that,

but for, for the project data, right.

603

: 00:34:54

Um, so so that's kind of like

what we envisioned, but also the

604

: 00:34:59

ability to tie that into the design,

um, the design documents, right?

605

: 00:35:04

You might think of the drawing

set that were available at the

606

: 00:35:06

time, the models that were,

because a lot of the coordination

607

: 00:35:09

happened around models now, right?

608

: 00:35:11

And people make decisions on that,

um, even though, um, it, it really

609

: 00:35:15

scares a lot of people, right?

610

: 00:35:17

How much you should trust

that versus the constriction

611

: 00:35:20

documents, which are the official

documents, if we're correct, right?

612

: 00:35:23

Um, so it's kind of like tying those,

those, those three things, the project

613

: 00:35:27

activities, uh, the design documents and

the BIM environment, and then making it,

614

: 00:35:33

um, making it, uh, time based, uh, in

the way that you navigate 3D information.

615

: 00:35:39

Randall Stevens: It kind of fits

into Evan, you know, the, these last

616

: 00:35:42

couple of conversations we've had with

people around AI, uh, you know, uh,

617

: 00:35:47

Carl, part of, we've had a couple of

conversations around, you know, with

618

: 00:35:52

AI, you want to basically chew on data.

619

: 00:35:56

to do something with it.

620

: 00:35:58

And a lot of the, a lot of it is thought

of as kind of the final end product.

621

: 00:36:03

Whereas we've had a couple of

conversations now about, it's interesting

622

: 00:36:06

to know not what you ended up with, but

why you ended up there, which has to do

623

: 00:36:11

with the process and the communication and

the decision making that was happening.

624

: 00:36:16

Um, so it would seem like that

that's a really interesting place to

625

: 00:36:20

start to think about that as you're,

as you're capturing, capturing.

626

: 00:36:24

The process, you're capturing the, the

why, why did we make these decisions?

627

: 00:36:30

Why were these things done?

628

: 00:36:31

It's easy kind of in the end to see

the end result, but, uh, you know,

629

: 00:36:36

it's

630

: 00:36:37

Carl Veillette: Yeah.

631

: 00:36:37

I think the

632

: 00:36:38

Evan Troxel: I think as an, as

an architect, that's a huge deal.

633

: 00:36:41

Not from like an

accountability standpoint.

634

: 00:36:43

I mean, of course it is an accountability

kind of a question, but so many

635

: 00:36:48

times the people who end up using

the building are not the people

636

: 00:36:51

who were involved in the process.

637

: 00:36:53

And they state, they're like,

why did you do it like this?

638

: 00:36:56

Because they weren't involved.

639

: 00:36:57

Right.

640

: 00:36:57

And they weren't at the table.

641

: 00:36:59

And.

642

: 00:37:00

It's very difficult for us to go back and

say, this is exactly how that happened.

643

: 00:37:06

Here's who made those decisions.

644

: 00:37:08

Here's why they did what they

did, because it's just a constant

645

: 00:37:11

flow of information, right?

646

: 00:37:13

And so those, those steps, and,

and I'm not Quite sure that I

647

: 00:37:17

would want all of that documented.

648

: 00:37:19

Like, it's just kind of too

fine grained at some level.

649

: 00:37:21

Right.

650

: 00:37:22

But at the same time, it's

like, there is a story there.

651

: 00:37:25

Right.

652

: 00:37:26

And, and so I could see

it being useful on some

653

: 00:37:29

Randall Stevens: I mean,

654

: 00:37:30

Evan Troxel: least, you know,

655

: 00:37:30

Randall Stevens: Evan, it's

powerful because it's why we

656

: 00:37:33

started doing this podcast.

657

: 00:37:34

We wanted to hear the, why did you,

658

: 00:37:37

why did you go, why did you

develop your software in this way?

659

: 00:37:41

And people like stories and

people remember stories and

660

: 00:37:44

people like to retell stories.

661

: 00:37:45

So I think, you know, in the same,

you know, in that vein about a

662

: 00:37:49

building, it's like, if somebody knew

why it was done, it may now not be.

663

: 00:37:56

Uh, something they want to complain

about, it may be now a story they want to

664

: 00:37:59

explain and point out to the next person.

665

: 00:38:01

You know why that ended up like that?

666

: 00:38:02

Because here was the backstory,

667

: 00:38:03

Right.

668

: 00:38:04

And, uh, those have become

interesting data points, right?

669

: 00:38:10

Evan Troxel: think it's really

interesting to kind of think about

670

: 00:38:12

this, um, coordination of the silos

that you're talking about, right?

671

: 00:38:17

Because I think people still do think

about BIM as a lane, and email as a lane

672

: 00:38:22

of communication, and oftentimes those

are different users to your earlier point.

673

: 00:38:27

You've got, you know, the BIM technicians

doing BIM things over here, and then

674

: 00:38:30

you maybe have project managers and team

leaders or executives or principals kind

675

: 00:38:36

of making decisions, and they're not.

676

: 00:38:38

talking to each other very well.

677

: 00:38:40

And so the idea of coordinating

these different lanes, I think,

678

: 00:38:44

is really, really intriguing.

679

: 00:38:46

So that there is insight during the

decision making process that, that

680

: 00:38:52

creates the connections between

those in a much stronger way.

681

: 00:38:55

I think that could absolutely be seen

as like, Yeah, we want that because,

682

: 00:39:00

like you said, multiple people

could be making different decisions

683

: 00:39:03

at the same time about the same

thing, and then confusion abounds.

684

: 00:39:08

Carl Veillette: And I think it's a good

segue into one of the functionalities

685

: 00:39:12

we have in Connect, because Back,

back then, I think we developed

686

: 00:39:16

this functionally for exactly that.

687

: 00:39:18

Like we saw, you know, like we're

starting from, uh, you know, with

688

: 00:39:22

BIM track back in the days from a

BIM centric view on things, right?

689

: 00:39:26

Like BIM coordination,

everything was 3d, right?

690

: 00:39:30

And then we realized like, okay,

well, these guys are working

691

: 00:39:33

completely disconnected from,

from the rest of the team.

692

: 00:39:37

And we needed the expertise

of both parties to, You know,

693

: 00:39:40

to make good coordination on

projects like happen, right?

694

: 00:39:43

So, so one of the things that

we've added in there is the

695

: 00:39:47

ability to see 2D drawings.

696

: 00:39:49

And we said, you know, why not making

those two things compatible, right?

697

: 00:39:54

And so that's, that's what's

commonly called now hybrid

698

: 00:39:57

modeling in the industry, right?

699

: 00:39:59

So it's the ability to see

2D and 3D at the same time.

700

: 00:40:02

So you can see, you know,

grid lines in the 3D model.

701

: 00:40:05

You can see discrepancies between drawings

and 3D models with, which I guess.

702

: 00:40:10

are still happening these days

because, you know, you've got subs

703

: 00:40:13

that produce drawings and then

you've got design intent models.

704

: 00:40:16

And then when you overlap the two of those

and you realize things may be off, right?

705

: 00:40:21

So, uh, but most importantly, like

creating a visual for, for people to

706

: 00:40:25

align and no matter, you know, if,

if you've got the skillset or not,

707

: 00:40:30

everything is compatible, right?

708

: 00:40:32

So let's say, you know, someone

want to work in 2d fine.

709

: 00:40:36

I mean, they can just go there.

710

: 00:40:38

Turn on the 3d model, you're in 2d, right?

711

: 00:40:40

So you're a project manager, fine.

712

: 00:40:42

You're raising an issue in there.

713

: 00:40:44

Um, but you don't want that

issue to be siloed, right?

714

: 00:40:47

You want it to be part of, of,

of the whole project environment.

715

: 00:40:52

So when, when, when, when we were

creating issues like that, they're

716

: 00:40:55

also compatible in 3d, right?

717

: 00:40:57

So you can say, okay, I'm going

to work up this thing here.

718

: 00:41:00

Uh, there's an issue with

the stairs there, right?

719

: 00:41:02

I may assign it to someone.

720

: 00:41:04

And then someone that's

working in 3D, right?

721

: 00:41:06

So I'm just going to switch to 3D.

722

: 00:41:08

Um, they're going to be going here

and then they're going to be working

723

: 00:41:13

on a lot of the 3D environment only.

724

: 00:41:15

And then when you look at the

issue stairs, um, they're going

725

: 00:41:18

to be able to see those issues

in a 3D environment, right?

726

: 00:41:21

So you've got this stair issue over here.

727

: 00:41:23

Um, and, and you can turn on, you

know, 3D or go back to, to, to the,

728

: 00:41:28

2d, uh, at any, any point in time.

729

: 00:41:31

So I think it was, it was quite a

challenge for, for us to make that work

730

: 00:41:36

because, um, those, those sheets, you

know, are kind of published from the

731

: 00:41:41

BIM environment and inserted like a

house of cards inside the 3d environment

732

: 00:41:46

where, where it should fit at the

right scale at the right location.

733

: 00:41:49

So, uh, you have some drawings like,

uh, elevations, for instance, where you

734

: 00:41:54

may have two or three different views

so that sheet coexists in multiple

735

: 00:41:58

locations of the 3d model, right?

736

: 00:42:00

So that was a, quite a

challenge to build the thing.

737

: 00:42:02

And, um, and, uh, we kind

of made it work, right?

738

: 00:42:05

So it really bridged the gap between

2D and 3D, which was the first step.

739

: 00:42:09

And now we're evolving that into,

uh, you know, project activities

740

: 00:42:12

and being able to see those project

activities in, in, in any of those,

741

: 00:42:15

uh, different environment, 2D or 3D.

742

: 00:42:18

Yep.

743

: 00:42:19

Evan Troxel: this solution.

744

: 00:42:20

Was this something that

users were asking for?

745

: 00:42:24

Is this something that you

thought internally could plug a

746

: 00:42:27

hole that exists in the system?

747

: 00:42:30

A combination of the two?

748

: 00:42:31

Something else?

749

: 00:42:32

Because I think a lot of software

companies go off and build

750

: 00:42:34

something and then they try to

tell everybody how cool it is.

751

: 00:42:38

But then there's the

opposite of that, right?

752

: 00:42:40

Which is we don't build anything until

we get enough votes for or we keep

753

: 00:42:43

hearing the same thing over and over

and over again And we say, yeah, we're

754

: 00:42:45

the right people to solve that problem.

755

: 00:42:47

So where did this, where did this come

756

: 00:42:48

Carl Veillette: Yeah, so I think

it really, I think we didn't

757

: 00:42:52

get a specific request on it.

758

: 00:42:54

I think we were just like a, you know,

a startup that we're trying to kind of

759

: 00:42:57

think, think about things differently

a little bit right at the time.

760

: 00:43:00

And, um, we were really envisioning a

future where 2D and 3D are interconnected.

761

: 00:43:08

Right.

762

: 00:43:08

Because there is information.

763

: 00:43:09

We just realized that.

764

: 00:43:11

from our perspective, the industry

is not going to be moving away

765

: 00:43:15

from 2D anytime soon, right?

766

: 00:43:16

Uh, I mean, as much as I want, I would

like to see it just like in manufacturing

767

: 00:43:20

space, I don't think we're there yet

and it's probably not going to be

768

: 00:43:24

there in the next, the next 10 years.

769

: 00:43:26

So I don't want to be pessimistic,

but, so we said, okay, it's

770

: 00:43:29

worth investing into it, right?

771

: 00:43:31

Let's, it's worth, it's worth investing

into connecting those two things so

772

: 00:43:35

that we don't end up with a bunch

of drawings that have markups on it.

773

: 00:43:39

Those are action items, possibly, right?

774

: 00:43:42

And then a bunch

775

: 00:43:43

of 3D specific, you know,

coordination tasks that happen

776

: 00:43:46

in clash detection software.

777

: 00:43:48

And then you've got two different lists

of things to address in the morning

778

: 00:43:51

when you, you sit in on your computer

and you have to, uh, review it and, and

779

: 00:43:56

address those issues in, in the drawings

inside the BIM, the BIM software, right?

780

: 00:44:02

So we were like, okay, what if we

can connect those two things, have

781

: 00:44:06

a unified list of, of action items

and things that need to solve.

782

: 00:44:11

And, um, then this way you

can have a clear view on the

783

: 00:44:15

state of the project, right?

784

: 00:44:16

What's the coordination

held on the project?

785

: 00:44:18

Like, like, are we making changes

at a speed that the rest of the team

786

: 00:44:22

cannot keep up, you know, with, with

addressing those changes, uh, and

787

: 00:44:26

the issues that it creates, what's

the state of the, of the project?

788

: 00:44:30

We're going out for.

789

: 00:44:31

Uh, construction next week, right?

790

: 00:44:33

Like if I, if I finished solve like

all the, the issues, the coordination

791

: 00:44:37

issues between, um, the, uh, MEP

consultant and a structural engineer,

792

: 00:44:43

um, is there anything pending, right?

793

: 00:44:46

So you can't answer that efficiently if

you don't have everything tied together.

794

: 00:44:51

Randall Stevens: You know, it's,

it's always that question and I don't

795

: 00:44:53

think it's either one or the other.

796

: 00:44:55

I think sometimes

797

: 00:44:56

you have to do a little bit of both.

798

: 00:44:58

You have to listen to the customers,

you know, always describe it as

799

: 00:45:02

trying to get to the Essence of what

they're telling you, like, which

800

: 00:45:07

usually requires somebody, you know,

like I'm sure Carl is very good at

801

: 00:45:11

about, okay, I heard you say this.

802

: 00:45:13

Let me ask you, you know, five more

questions to kind of dig and find out

803

: 00:45:17

the essence of what their problem is.

804

: 00:45:20

And then, uh, and then a little

bit of a healthy, re imagining

805

: 00:45:24

some things and, Putting enough out

806

: 00:45:27

there, I call it, you got to do

enough to let people punch at it.

807

: 00:45:30

Like, I want to get some feedback on this.

808

: 00:45:31

Is this a good idea or not?

809

: 00:45:33

Good idea.

810

: 00:45:33

And that's, uh, you know, as you

said, a good, a good startup or an

811

: 00:45:37

entrepreneurial thinking around that

is usually, Hey, We've got some ideas.

812

: 00:45:42

I'm not going to go too far before I

put this in front of you and get some

813

: 00:45:45

feedback if it's a good direction or

not and, uh, but usually it's some

814

: 00:45:49

healthy combination of those two.

815

: 00:45:50

It's never one or the other.

816

: 00:45:52

It's like you kind of live in

this constant, uh, it's a constant

817

: 00:45:56

struggle when you're doing

818

: 00:45:58

this, right?

819

: 00:46:00

Evan Troxel: Yeah, I mean this, this

obviously, this is, seemed inevitable

820

: 00:46:04

to me, it, but you can only really

see that once you've seen it, I think,

821

: 00:46:08

because, again, this is another lane

of communication, you know, you've got

822

: 00:46:12

typically somebody much older and more

experienced, is what I mean by that,

823

: 00:46:17

right, doing redlines on PDFs or And

there's the time that it takes to do that

824

: 00:46:25

process, and it's happening over there,

while you've got this continued, you

825

: 00:46:29

know, whittling away on the model, and

you've got email, and it's like, you've,

826

: 00:46:34

you've gotta bring all these things way

closer together, and decisions need to

827

: 00:46:38

be informed across all of the layers.

828

: 00:46:41

So this cross section, if you will,

right, of, um, All of the different

829

: 00:46:45

lanes of information having to talk to

each other just makes a ton of sense.

830

: 00:46:50

I'm curious from like a user's

perspective, um, I'm sure you get

831

: 00:46:55

good feedback from this, but I'm

also curious about, uh, implement,

832

: 00:46:59

implementing new tech like this.

833

: 00:47:01

And how hard adoption is or isn't for,

for this kind of a tool, because adoption,

834

: 00:47:06

you know, my experience, adoption's

really hard in an architectural office,

835

: 00:47:10

and I'm sure it's a little different

in an engineering office, and it's a

836

: 00:47:13

little different in a contracting office.

837

: 00:47:15

So, talk about adoption when it

comes to new tools like these

838

: 00:47:19

and, and what you're experiencing.

839

: 00:47:20

Carl Veillette: That's a really

good topic actually, because.

840

: 00:47:24

We would be tempted to think that,

you know, architects, engineers,

841

: 00:47:28

and GECs, you know, implement

technologies pretty much the same way.

842

: 00:47:31

But the way that the procurement

process work, you know, with

843

: 00:47:34

GECs, it's project based, right?

844

: 00:47:37

And they adopt technology

in a project basis.

845

: 00:47:39

So, um, the, we've seen some GECs, it's

quite interesting because, um, the,

846

: 00:47:47

They've become really, really good.

847

: 00:47:49

It's, it's almost like,

um, training, right?

848

: 00:47:51

Like, I mean, uh, like, like

going to the gym, right.

849

: 00:47:54

And exercise, like the more you, the

more you train, you know, the, the

850

: 00:47:59

easier it is, uh, to get into it.

851

: 00:48:01

So I think, um, adopting new technologies

on a project basis for GCs is something

852

: 00:48:06

that we see quite a, quite a lot, right.

853

: 00:48:08

They test out new

technologies all the time.

854

: 00:48:11

Um, yeah.

855

: 00:48:12

And then for architects and

engineers, it's, it's really

856

: 00:48:16

ingrained in their, in their process.

857

: 00:48:17

Like, I mean, the, it's, it's

hard to change tools when you've

858

: 00:48:22

got something like a well oiled

machine, if I can say, right.

859

: 00:48:25

And it's working well, like, why

would you change and introduce risk?

860

: 00:48:29

And then, you know, potentially affect

your margins with that down the road.

861

: 00:48:32

So the way of thinking, like, you know,

architects, engineers, they want to have

862

: 00:48:37

something that's predictable, right?

863

: 00:48:38

Like they want to have something

that remove the risk that

864

: 00:48:40

they're taking on projects.

865

: 00:48:42

GCS, GCS are looking at

driving efficiency, right?

866

: 00:48:44

So we're not looking at the right thing.

867

: 00:48:46

Um, and I guess, we, we tried when

we build Connect, we tried to keep

868

: 00:48:52

in mind new from our project center

and the work flows and the wayfinding

869

: 00:48:57

and the experience we add in there.

870

: 00:48:59

But we were also getting a lot of feedback

on, you know, the, the user experience,

871

: 00:49:04

the UI's getting a little old, right?

872

: 00:49:06

So we're trying, We're trying to,

we're trying to reuse the same

873

: 00:49:10

terminology a little bit, bring

it over, revamp it, make it easier

874

: 00:49:15

from a user experience perspective.

875

: 00:49:17

And the feedback we're getting is awesome.

876

: 00:49:18

Like the user experience.

877

: 00:49:19

It's really, I think it's one of the

main reason why we're successful with

878

: 00:49:24

the adoption of Connect currently.

879

: 00:49:26

Um, a lot of vendors, like they, they

put more functionality on, on the

880

: 00:49:32

put more effort on the functionality

than the experience itself.

881

: 00:49:35

I think we're putting much more

effort on the experience than the

882

: 00:49:38

actual functionality in, in the

current, in the now timeframe.

883

: 00:49:41

So, uh, this may change over time, but

I think we're trying, we're trying to

884

: 00:49:45

really remove clicks, you know, and

thing, it makes things really, really

885

: 00:49:47

efficient, um, so that we don't, we don't

have, uh, adoptions bottleneck that comes

886

: 00:49:53

with, uh, this, this is glitchy, right?

887

: 00:49:55

Like this is not working well.

888

: 00:49:56

It does what I want, right?

889

: 00:49:57

But it's, the process to get

there is a little hard, right?

890

: 00:50:00

So, um, I think our, our design team

has been, you know, working, working

891

: 00:50:06

relentlessly, I would say, to make,

to make things more efficient, um,

892

: 00:50:10

to, to a point where I've, I've

never thought we would bring it.

893

: 00:50:13

Randall Stevens: Talk, talk a little bit

894

: 00:50:14

about that, Carl.

895

: 00:50:15

On the team, do you use, uh, do you

have people designated to like UI, UX

896

: 00:50:21

work and, uh, versus, you know, uh, the

engineers that are, uh, you know, built,

897

: 00:50:28

building the actual applications in tech?

898

: 00:50:31

What does, what does that look like?

899

: 00:50:32

What does, and what does that

process look like for you all?

900

: 00:50:35

Carl Veillette: Yep.

901

: 00:50:35

So we got a design team.

902

: 00:50:37

Uh, there were about, uh, eight people.

903

: 00:50:40

Um, so, uh, our, our UX director

there is doing an awesome job.

904

: 00:50:45

So we, they go from, you know, getting

involved in the early user research

905

: 00:50:49

phase, you know, problem framing.

906

: 00:50:51

To coming up with some early stage

prototypes, like pixel perfect

907

: 00:50:55

stuff that people can test.

908

: 00:50:57

And so we, like, we usually get in

front of our customers with that.

909

: 00:51:01

Uh, they provide some feedback,

you know, I like that.

910

: 00:51:03

I don't like that.

911

: 00:51:04

This is not exactly what we thought.

912

: 00:51:05

So before we get them, get that to the

development team, where we actually

913

: 00:51:09

start this, to spend the big bucks, you

know, building the whole thing, making it

914

: 00:51:13

robust.

915

: 00:51:14

Randall Stevens: what, what tools,

916

: 00:51:14

Carl Veillette: already

done a lot of validation,

917

: 00:51:16

Randall Stevens: tools do you all use?

918

: 00:51:17

You're using Figma or what

do you all use to do that?

919

: 00:51:21

Carl Veillette: Yeah, so, uh, we were

Envision customers at some point,

920

: 00:51:24

and because they're, um, shutting

down the platform, we've migrated to

921

: 00:51:28

Figma.

922

: 00:51:28

Uh, so that was a big change we had

to go through, uh, I would say in

923

: 00:51:32

the last, uh, the last 12 months.

924

: 00:51:34

Um, we've used, uh, Zeppelin also a

little bit, um, so for specific things.

925

: 00:51:40

Um, so those are, I would say,

the three different pieces of

926

: 00:51:43

technology we use, but, uh, I would

say we're heavily on, on Figma

927

: 00:51:47

now.

928

: 00:51:47

Yeah.

929

: 00:51:48

Randall Stevens: And then, uh, those

mockups, you're, you're putting

930

: 00:51:51

those in front of the customers.

931

: 00:51:55

Carl Veillette: Yep, absolutely.

932

: 00:51:56

Yep.

933

: 00:51:56

So, uh, we've got, um, a

group of customers that we

934

: 00:52:01

engage on a regular basis.

935

: 00:52:02

Uh, they're part of our product

advisory board kind of thing.

936

: 00:52:05

So those are some of our

top tier, um, customers.

937

: 00:52:08

And, uh, we also got some quality

business reviews going on with

938

: 00:52:12

some of the other larger customers

that are not on those calls.

939

: 00:52:16

Usually we do a big roadmap presentation,

show some of those prototypes, get some,

940

: 00:52:22

some feedback on that, readjust, uh,

and, uh, you know, build upon that until

941

: 00:52:27

we, we get to a point where we feel we

nailed it and the customer is approved.

942

: 00:52:31

And then we, uh, we can go

ahead and start developing.

943

: 00:52:34

Randall Stevens: Great.

944

: 00:52:35

And as you all develop, uh,

features, do you, do you all try to

945

: 00:52:40

aggregate, uh, You know, multiple

features and call it a release.

946

: 00:52:45

Are you more on a rolling release cycle?

947

: 00:52:48

You know, push,

948

: 00:52:49

push it out as it's done.

949

: 00:52:51

You know, how do, how

do y'all look at that?

950

: 00:52:52

And, you know,

951

: 00:52:53

sometimes It's uh, I know, you

know, whenever you're disrupting

952

: 00:52:57

anybody's workflow, even if you're

improving it, they don't like it.

953

: 00:53:00

So it's like, kind of like how,

what's the frequency of, and

954

: 00:53:04

how do you all approach that?

955

: 00:53:05

Carl Veillette: Yeah, so

you know what it is, right?

956

: 00:53:07

I mean, uh, you guys are developing

software too, but like, I think

957

: 00:53:11

there's a nature of the two

different products we have.

958

: 00:53:14

So we have one product

that's on prem, right?

959

: 00:53:16

So the, the release is like, there's

like versions, you know, going, going

960

: 00:53:20

on three times a year kind of thing.

961

: 00:53:22

So, uh, in between that, like we've

got an agile process with, you know,

962

: 00:53:26

iterations and sprints and everything.

963

: 00:53:29

Um, but, um, on the connect side of

things, it's continuous delivery.

964

: 00:53:32

So there's like new functionalities

rolling out in the platform.

965

: 00:53:35

We announce it through in app, you

know, communications and everything.

966

: 00:53:39

So we're, we're moving much faster

because of that and connect.

967

: 00:53:41

And the learning, the learning

curve for us is, is, is, uh,

968

: 00:53:46

the cycle is much closer, right?

969

: 00:53:47

Because we're raising often, so

we get the immediate feedback.

970

: 00:53:50

So we don't have time to get in

the wrong direction and have to

971

: 00:53:53

come back, right?

972

: 00:53:54

It's, it's almost instant.

973

: 00:53:55

We're getting feedback

as we release and then.

974

: 00:53:58

You know, three weeks after we

may be shifting directions, right?

975

: 00:54:01

So we can, we cannot get lost

really with that, uh, too much.

976

: 00:54:04

So I, I like like the way it works with,

with Connect from that perspective.

977

: 00:54:08

And, um, it's, uh, it's, it's

always been, um, like that.

978

: 00:54:15

I would say with Connect, we

used to have more like a three

979

: 00:54:17

weeks kind of sprint cycles.

980

: 00:54:20

Uh, we would release every three

weeks and, um, communicate to

981

: 00:54:24

the customers on, you know,

982

: 00:54:25

what's coming up.

983

: 00:54:25

But now we're really turning into a

continuous delivery kind of approach.

984

: 00:54:29

And, uh, it's been, uh, it's been

985

: 00:54:31

Randall Stevens: On, on that front, uh,

do you, like with the connect product, do

986

: 00:54:34

you end up, are there any features where

you, uh, you know, if, if there's a big

987

: 00:54:39

enough change, do you let people kind of

stay in the old mode and then offer, Hey,

988

: 00:54:44

go take a look at this, but you don't, you

know, if it's going to disrupt your day,

989

: 00:54:48

come back to it next week, or do you all

just kind of try to try to push things,

990

: 00:54:53

try to Push.

991

: 00:54:54

Right.

992

: 00:54:54

It's like,

993

: 00:54:56

Carl Veillette: yeah, I don't

think there's a single answer for

994

: 00:54:57

that, but I think like we, like,

usually we, we, we try to give a

995

: 00:55:01

heads up to customers beforehand

when there's a big enough change.

996

: 00:55:05

So like one of the things that's

rolling up, uh, in next week, like

997

: 00:55:08

we've got a new connectivity between

our, uh, viewer technology and the

998

: 00:55:13

project files, um, functionalities

that we're kind of connecting the

999

: 00:55:17

two, so the backend is the same.

: 1000

00:55:19,429 --> 00:55:24,889

So it's quite a change and it's, it's,

it's kind of like, okay, for that change

: 1001

00:55:24,889 --> 00:55:28,509

to happen, like we, we cannot disregard,

you know, the, the, the customers that

: 1002

00:55:28,509 --> 00:55:30,099

are using it separately right now.

: 1003

00:55:30,099 --> 00:55:31,659

So we're just going to keep it as is.

: 1004

00:55:32,089 --> 00:55:34,989

And then for the new projects, they're

going to be, you know, jumping on a

: 1005

00:55:34,989 --> 00:55:35,959

new mode, right?

: 1006

00:55:36,559 --> 00:55:39,719

Uh, so that's an example of how

we, we manage communication.

: 1007

00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:42,549

So an email went out to announce

that to the customers, you know, a

: 1008

00:55:42,549 --> 00:55:46,179

few weeks before and get them in the

mindset of, okay, the new project

: 1009

00:55:46,179 --> 00:55:47,429

is going to be working this way.

: 1010

00:55:48,029 --> 00:55:50,179

Um, or like our viewer technology.

: 1011

00:55:50,179 --> 00:55:54,329

We've rebuilt the whole technology

ground up, uh, to, to be kind of best

: 1012

00:55:54,329 --> 00:55:58,319

in class for, for if you were speed,

the legacy viewer is still there.

: 1013

00:55:58,319 --> 00:55:59,569

So you can switch back and forth.

: 1014

00:55:59,589 --> 00:56:01,449

You've probably seen it at

the top of the screen, right?

: 1015

00:56:01,539 --> 00:56:02,159

Switch back to

: 1016

00:56:02,159 --> 00:56:02,979

legacy viewer.

: 1017

00:56:03,249 --> 00:56:06,809

So what we're measuring there

is we're measuring usage, right?

: 1018

00:56:06,839 --> 00:56:11,139

So we've got 80 percent of the customer

now on the next generation viewer.

: 1019

00:56:11,449 --> 00:56:14,859

So like, we know that this

can be the default experience

: 1020

00:56:15,389 --> 00:56:16,759

for the 20 percent remaining.

: 1021

00:56:17,109 --> 00:56:19,319

We're still giving access to the old one.

: 1022

00:56:19,529 --> 00:56:21,921

When we get to 95%, we're going to say,

: 1023

00:56:21,921 --> 00:56:23,549

you know, okay, you know,

: 1024

00:56:23,549 --> 00:56:24,852

we'll sunset it and,

: 1025

00:56:24,852 --> 00:56:28,499

um, maybe the, the last 5 percent

of the users are using a few

: 1026

00:56:28,529 --> 00:56:32,169

functionalities in there that are not

worth reinventing or, you know, bringing

: 1027

00:56:32,169 --> 00:56:33,989

over in the, the next gen if you were.

: 1028

00:56:34,429 --> 00:56:39,219

So, um, so that's kind of

like the edge cases, right?

: 1029

00:56:39,219 --> 00:56:42,319

So some of those larger

items, but most of the time.

: 1030

00:56:43,199 --> 00:56:45,179

We roll out stuff in the platform.

: 1031

00:56:45,179 --> 00:56:46,679

We've got some guided tours.

: 1032

00:56:46,949 --> 00:56:50,909

Um, there's a, you know, read these

notes that people can subscribe to.

: 1033

00:56:50,909 --> 00:56:55,259

And, and we've got our chat in

app that people can ask questions,

: 1034

00:56:55,259 --> 00:56:56,309

you know, if, if need be.

: 1035

00:56:56,309 --> 00:56:58,379

So, uh, usually that's, uh, that's how we

: 1036

00:56:58,379 --> 00:57:00,329

roll out, you know, uh,

: 1037

00:57:00,594 --> 00:57:03,524

Randall Stevens: Do you, do you have

a, an example that comes to mind of

: 1038

00:57:03,554 --> 00:57:06,074

uh, a feature that you took away?

: 1039

00:57:06,204 --> 00:57:11,634

Uh, you know, it's like one of the

things that I think, uh, Uh, people

: 1040

00:57:11,634 --> 00:57:16,509

that, that don't develop software, you

know, don't necessarily understand is

: 1041

00:57:16,509 --> 00:57:20,539

that like, man, once you've introduced

it and one person's using it, it's hard,

: 1042

00:57:21,599 --> 00:57:23,439

it's hard to ever take something away.

: 1043

00:57:23,439 --> 00:57:27,359

But is anything ever come to anything

that you've, you've worked on the last

: 1044

00:57:27,359 --> 00:57:30,959

couple of years, come to mind that you've,

you took away and, uh, and you had to

: 1045

00:57:30,959 --> 00:57:33,679

fight, fight to get it, get it taken away.

: 1046

00:57:35,324 --> 00:57:36,734

Carl Veillette: uh,

that's a good question.

: 1047

00:57:36,734 --> 00:57:40,714

Yeah, I think, yeah, I think we do remove

stuff on a, on a regular basis, actually.

: 1048

00:57:40,914 --> 00:57:42,884

Like, um, we look at the usage, right?

: 1049

00:57:42,884 --> 00:57:46,314

And we've got a, you know, this

tracking platform that we use for,

: 1050

00:57:46,344 --> 00:57:49,534

you know, understanding what people

are using and what they're not.

: 1051

00:57:49,534 --> 00:57:54,234

And, uh, when usually like we

get lower than two, 3 percent

: 1052

00:57:54,244 --> 00:57:57,304

usage, like it's a, it's a no

brainer each time, like we would.

: 1053

00:57:57,739 --> 00:58:03,069

Refactor a page, change technology

there, um, I guess we would look at those

: 1054

00:58:03,069 --> 00:58:08,479

usage and then rebuild it without those,

those smaller, uh, functionalities,

: 1055

00:58:08,519 --> 00:58:12,619

uh, I guess, uh, sometimes, sometimes

we think they're not used and then

: 1056

00:58:12,629 --> 00:58:14,159

we find out that they are, right?

: 1057

00:58:14,159 --> 00:58:16,679

So, um, that's the downside of doing that.

: 1058

00:58:16,679 --> 00:58:20,589

But, um, if we don't do that

and, you know, at some point

: 1059

00:58:20,589 --> 00:58:21,739

it slows us down, right?

: 1060

00:58:21,789 --> 00:58:24,969

It's, it's like, oh, you've got

to rebuild like, like everything

: 1061

00:58:24,979 --> 00:58:26,349

and then it takes forever.

: 1062

00:58:27,399 --> 00:58:32,299

So, um, yeah, we, we trying to hand

pick the right functionalities when

: 1063

00:58:32,299 --> 00:58:33,919

we factor refactor some of the, the

: 1064

00:58:34,369 --> 00:58:35,329

Randall Stevens: Yeah,

there's a little bit.

: 1065

00:58:35,329 --> 00:58:39,299

of the strategy of just remove

it and see if anybody screams.

: 1066

00:58:39,299 --> 00:58:41,589

And then if they scream

loud enough, you can go

: 1067

00:58:41,599 --> 00:58:43,479

back to work on, you know, okay, let's put

: 1068

00:58:43,549 --> 00:58:43,909

Carl Veillette: Yeah.

: 1069

00:58:43,909 --> 00:58:46,169

We've definitely had this

one a few times, but.

: 1070

00:58:46,799 --> 00:58:47,409

Randall Stevens: Right, right.

: 1071

00:58:47,409 --> 00:58:49,979

No, it's a, it's a real challenge, right?

: 1072

00:58:50,219 --> 00:58:53,079

Because every line of code that

you end up writing, and if you add

: 1073

00:58:53,079 --> 00:58:55,249

something in there, and that kind of

goes back to the earlier part of the

: 1074

00:58:55,249 --> 00:58:57,569

conversation about how do you decide?

: 1075

00:58:57,909 --> 00:59:01,969

To make a feature where you don't just

make it up because if you just make it up

: 1076

00:59:02,029 --> 00:59:06,289

and put it in there, somebody's probably

going to use it, but then it may not

: 1077

00:59:06,289 --> 00:59:11,049

have, you know, it was the 5 percent not

the 95 percent and, uh, those become real

: 1078

00:59:11,049 --> 00:59:12,559

challenges as you're doing this kind of

: 1079

00:59:12,779 --> 00:59:14,909

Carl Veillette: It's always a

trade off, like it's how much time

: 1080

00:59:14,909 --> 00:59:17,919

you put on improving the existing

versus building something new.

: 1081

00:59:17,919 --> 00:59:23,439

And at some point, the, the, the,

the, the opportunity value there

: 1082

00:59:23,439 --> 00:59:25,539

is, is getting much lower, right?

: 1083

00:59:25,539 --> 00:59:29,049

So you've got some more urgent stuff

that people want you to work on.

: 1084

00:59:29,049 --> 00:59:32,909

So sometimes you're kind of forced a

little bit to, uh, you know, say, okay,

: 1085

00:59:32,939 --> 00:59:35,579

we, we, we got there, we got enough.

: 1086

00:59:35,629 --> 00:59:37,769

Then, you know, let's

change directions, right?

: 1087

00:59:37,779 --> 00:59:38,069

Then.

: 1088

00:59:38,544 --> 00:59:42,324

I think you're, you talk about, you know,

how we're managing stuff with releases.

: 1089

00:59:42,324 --> 00:59:47,774

I think the way we drive the roadmap

is, is product, it's, um, it's a

: 1090

00:59:47,814 --> 00:59:49,554

thematic driven roadmap, right?

: 1091

00:59:49,554 --> 00:59:52,994

So I'm not sure if you've heard about

that, but it's, it's like, we don't, we

: 1092

00:59:52,994 --> 00:59:54,714

don't do all dress pizza development.

: 1093

00:59:54,744 --> 00:59:58,044

What I mean by all dress pizza development

is like, okay, one day you're working

: 1094

00:59:58,044 --> 01:00:00,834

on pepperoni and then the day after

you're working on cheese, right?

: 1095

01:00:00,854 --> 01:00:01,284

And then.

: 1096

01:00:01,624 --> 01:00:03,724

So you're constantly

changing directions, right?

: 1097

01:00:03,724 --> 01:00:07,344

And you're doing a bit of everything, but

you don't really know what the impact is.

: 1098

01:00:07,794 --> 01:00:10,014

So that's the worst thing

in, in software engineering.

: 1099

01:00:10,014 --> 01:00:14,394

I think in my mind, in product management,

like it's, it's doing everything the

: 1100

01:00:14,394 --> 01:00:18,964

customers are asking without, you know,

specific directions or thematic to

: 1101

01:00:18,964 --> 01:00:19,514

work on.

: 1102

01:00:19,804 --> 01:00:22,934

So the way we think about

things is we bundle.

: 1103

01:00:23,854 --> 01:00:25,654

So, to sum so that we

can have more impact.

: 1104

01:00:25,664 --> 01:00:30,084

So, we cluster those ideas coming from

our ideas portal, we create an initiative,

: 1105

01:00:30,124 --> 01:00:34,104

that initiative is about, let's say,

coming up with a better contract change

: 1106

01:00:34,104 --> 01:00:36,194

management kind of workflow, right?

: 1107

01:00:36,624 --> 01:00:41,854

So, if we had taken the, the old Raspiza

development kind of approach, like

: 1108

01:00:41,864 --> 01:00:45,114

we would have worked on that while

we're working on some issue tracking

: 1109

01:00:45,114 --> 01:00:46,634

and BIM functionalities, right?

: 1110

01:00:46,949 --> 01:00:49,089

And then it's sparse, right?

: 1111

01:00:49,089 --> 01:00:52,439

Like you've got, you know, slight

improvements here and there, but no,

: 1112

01:00:52,499 --> 01:00:54,259

nothing really game changing, right?

: 1113

01:00:54,259 --> 01:00:55,989

Because you've done it over time.

: 1114

01:00:55,989 --> 01:00:58,059

And then now you're shifting

directions all the time.

: 1115

01:00:58,449 --> 01:01:04,589

So your power to have an impact when you,

you rethink about the thing as a whole is,

: 1116

01:01:04,749 --> 01:01:09,779

is much higher than, than if you take, you

know, you do that throughout, throughout

: 1117

01:01:09,789 --> 01:01:11,569

time with, with other things on the table.

: 1118

01:01:11,589 --> 01:01:14,629

So we're trying to have like a

focused kind of approach to things.

: 1119

01:01:15,179 --> 01:01:18,709

Um, instead of like, and that's

frustrating because some, some

: 1120

01:01:18,719 --> 01:01:21,929

users say, okay, like during three

months, you're going to be working on

: 1121

01:01:21,939 --> 01:01:24,569

something that doesn't matter

to me, but it does matter to a

: 1122

01:01:24,569 --> 01:01:26,169

bunch of other customers, right?

: 1123

01:01:26,639 --> 01:01:30,879

Um, so you're not seeing anything

coming out from their own perspective.

: 1124

01:01:30,939 --> 01:01:33,749

Um, so it's like how you

balance, you know, we make sure

: 1125

01:01:33,829 --> 01:01:35,279

everybody's happy, but also

: 1126

01:01:35,379 --> 01:01:36,579

Randall Stevens: it's a good, uh,

: 1127

01:01:36,769 --> 01:01:37,749

Carl Veillette: a challenge.

: 1128

01:01:37,819 --> 01:01:40,939

Randall Stevens: a good, uh, it's a,

that's in itself just a good topic.

: 1129

01:01:41,119 --> 01:01:45,789

You know, as you were saying that, we

kind of take a very thematic, you know,

: 1130

01:01:45,789 --> 01:01:50,329

kind of view, but, and, uh, what, as you

were describing it, I'm like, we kind of

: 1131

01:01:50,339 --> 01:01:52,499

work in, I'll call it major and minor.

: 1132

01:01:52,539 --> 01:01:57,034

There's like the major are become these

major themes, like we're going to work.

: 1133

01:01:57,344 --> 01:02:02,854

Uh, in this direction on this thing, and

that's, that's the major it's, and then

: 1134

01:02:02,854 --> 01:02:04,834

there's, you know, there's always cleanup.

: 1135

01:02:04,844 --> 01:02:08,294

One of the things that we've done,

um, and some of this is just for

: 1136

01:02:08,294 --> 01:02:12,024

the health of the, uh, the dev teams

too, just so they don't get bored.

: 1137

01:02:12,034 --> 01:02:16,014

But, you know, a lot of times we'll

work on a major, you got heads down

: 1138

01:02:16,284 --> 01:02:17,413

and you're going to kind of get that.

: 1139

01:02:17,413 --> 01:02:18,514

We call it preview release.

: 1140

01:02:18,514 --> 01:02:23,094

We'll get something out where it's

now able to be, you know, for our

: 1141

01:02:23,094 --> 01:02:24,854

customers to start kicking the tires.

: 1142

01:02:25,389 --> 01:02:29,409

And on the dev side, that's kind

of like a time to take a breath.

: 1143

01:02:29,489 --> 01:02:33,459

And then we go work on like little

minors, like, let's go, you know,

: 1144

01:02:33,469 --> 01:02:37,059

we've had a bunch of people complaining

about this or that let's go.

: 1145

01:02:37,389 --> 01:02:38,889

And these are things

that you can knock out.

: 1146

01:02:38,949 --> 01:02:42,249

You know, maybe it's a day,

somebody can go attack those.

: 1147

01:02:42,499 --> 01:02:46,129

It's also though, from the health of

the dev team, the ability to be like,

: 1148

01:02:46,129 --> 01:02:47,939

okay, I'm not just diving into something.

: 1149

01:02:47,939 --> 01:02:50,329

I get to like take a little

breath for a couple of weeks.

: 1150

01:02:50,329 --> 01:02:51,779

We're going to knock out a bunch of

: 1151

01:02:51,779 --> 01:02:52,219

this stuff.

: 1152

01:02:52,509 --> 01:02:54,409

And that's also a time period then.

: 1153

01:02:54,754 --> 01:02:57,234

that you're waiting for the

feedback to come from what you've

: 1154

01:02:57,254 --> 01:02:58,814

pushed out on the major side.

: 1155

01:02:58,884 --> 01:03:02,364

And, uh, so we've, we've kind of

gotten into a cycle of two or three

: 1156

01:03:02,364 --> 01:03:03,554

times a year trying to do that.

: 1157

01:03:03,604 --> 01:03:07,594

And it lets you, Oh,

we've knocked out those.

: 1158

01:03:07,644 --> 01:03:12,529

Cause you know, from a, If, if you

looked at your request list or what you

: 1159

01:03:12,538 --> 01:03:14,769

really want to work on, it's all majors.

: 1160

01:03:15,259 --> 01:03:16,538

It's like, these are the big

: 1161

01:03:16,549 --> 01:03:20,569

things and all the little things will

just get pushed, pushed, pushed, pushed.

: 1162

01:03:20,569 --> 01:03:23,969

So you've got to find some room

in the middle of those things to

: 1163

01:03:23,969 --> 01:03:27,459

kind of, uh, go back and do that

little cleanup kinds of work.

: 1164

01:03:27,479 --> 01:03:30,129

And, uh, anyway, that's the

way we've approached it.

: 1165

01:03:33,054 --> 01:03:36,264

Evan Troxel: I can't help but, but

think of Google and what your, your

: 1166

01:03:36,264 --> 01:03:39,254

example of, you know, two or three

people still using a product and maybe

: 1167

01:03:39,254 --> 01:03:40,604

then you'll, you'll shut it down.

: 1168

01:03:41,099 --> 01:03:41,269

Randall Stevens: Oh,

: 1169

01:03:41,364 --> 01:03:43,034

Evan Troxel: Google's

like, it's out of here.

: 1170

01:03:43,079 --> 01:03:43,739

Randall Stevens: I'll just kill it.

: 1171

01:03:43,869 --> 01:03:43,899

Right.

: 1172

01:03:44,724 --> 01:03:49,044

Anyway,

: 1173

01:03:51,524 --> 01:03:56,624

well, this was fun, uh, Carl, any

other, any, anything else that you

: 1174

01:03:56,624 --> 01:03:59,844

can think of that you want to kind of

throw out there that you all are doing?

: 1175

01:03:59,964 --> 01:04:03,404

Um, what, what, you know, we

haven't talked much, you know,

: 1176

01:04:03,464 --> 01:04:04,924

everybody's talking AI now.

: 1177

01:04:05,163 --> 01:04:11,614

What's the, give us your, give us your

five minute take on, on how you all

: 1178

01:04:11,614 --> 01:04:15,959

are thinking about what's going on,

on AI, how you all Think are either

: 1179

01:04:15,969 --> 01:04:20,509

integrating things currently or foresee

that impacting what you're doing.

: 1180

01:04:22,359 --> 01:04:25,009

Carl Veillette: So I think it's

interesting because, you know, I look

: 1181

01:04:25,009 --> 01:04:29,479

at some people who are doing some very

innovative and very intriguing and,

: 1182

01:04:29,538 --> 01:04:32,059

and, uh, impressive things with AI.

: 1183

01:04:32,099 --> 01:04:36,038

I think about the guys at Verus,

I think they were on your, on one

: 1184

01:04:36,038 --> 01:04:37,279

of your podcasts recently.

: 1185

01:04:37,279 --> 01:04:37,959

I like those guys.

: 1186

01:04:37,959 --> 01:04:38,199

Right.

: 1187

01:04:38,199 --> 01:04:41,669

I mean, uh, I've, I've tried that

technology on my own house project

: 1188

01:04:41,669 --> 01:04:44,159

and, you know, just photorealistic

: 1189

01:04:44,639 --> 01:04:45,239

Randall Stevens: too, aren't they?

: 1190

01:04:45,349 --> 01:04:45,819

Aren't they?

: 1191

01:04:46,459 --> 01:04:46,979

I think they're

: 1192

01:04:47,734 --> 01:04:48,564

Evan Troxel: Colorado and

: 1193

01:04:48,929 --> 01:04:49,459

Randall Stevens: yeah.

: 1194

01:04:49,459 --> 01:04:49,559

Yeah.

: 1195

01:04:49,559 --> 01:04:49,929

Okay

: 1196

01:04:49,984 --> 01:04:54,634

Carl Veillette: Yeah, so I, I think, you

know, it's, it's crazy because I remember

: 1197

01:04:54,634 --> 01:04:58,054

when I was in architecture, I would

stay up all night looking at Photoshop

: 1198

01:04:58,054 --> 01:05:01,594

and Autodesk this render, which I was

using back then for rendering, and then

: 1199

01:05:01,594 --> 01:05:06,964

look at every single line of render and

then figure like shit, like, I've got

: 1200

01:05:06,964 --> 01:05:08,629

this, this material there, it's wrong.

: 1201

01:05:08,629 --> 01:05:09,454

I have to start over

: 1202

01:05:09,454 --> 01:05:09,814

again.

: 1203

01:05:09,814 --> 01:05:12,874

Like, and I've got, you know, that

to deliver like tomorrow, right?

: 1204

01:05:13,909 --> 01:05:16,939

And now it takes, you know, in a snap of

fingers like that, you get photorealistic

: 1205

01:05:16,939 --> 01:05:18,869

renders with a, with a prompt.

: 1206

01:05:18,929 --> 01:05:23,059

And it's, it's, uh, it's

a very impressive, right?

: 1207

01:05:23,699 --> 01:05:27,788

I think the way that we think about

AI for what we do, because we're

: 1208

01:05:27,788 --> 01:05:32,379

a project information management,

uh, solution provider, right?

: 1209

01:05:32,839 --> 01:05:36,979

We think about how we're going to be

helping people better manage information.

: 1210

01:05:37,049 --> 01:05:40,899

And that's going to be an increasing,

it's, it is already a challenge and

: 1211

01:05:40,899 --> 01:05:42,799

it's going to increase exponentially.

: 1212

01:05:42,814 --> 01:05:56,407

They're all put together on the web and

you can see them all more than once per

: 1213

01:05:56,407 --> 01:06:02,444

day, That's why I love doing podcasts.

: 1214

01:06:03,219 --> 01:06:04,349

They just lost control.

: 1215

01:06:04,349 --> 01:06:08,899

So we're thinking about how we're

going to be helping them with AI.

: 1216

01:06:08,939 --> 01:06:13,119

So AI for us is more a play into

a better user experience for

: 1217

01:06:13,119 --> 01:06:14,719

searching through information, right?

: 1218

01:06:15,249 --> 01:06:20,139

So we're talking about the, uh,

the ability to look backward, maybe

: 1219

01:06:20,139 --> 01:06:21,559

a timeline kind of view, right?

: 1220

01:06:21,559 --> 01:06:22,804

And then the information and.

: 1221

01:06:23,224 --> 01:06:26,734

Um, that's, that's, I guess, one

way of, of thinking about it.

: 1222

01:06:26,764 --> 01:06:29,204

But, you know, when you're trying

to find the root cause of something,

: 1223

01:06:29,214 --> 01:06:32,194

let's say a bridge collapsed at

the end of a, of a project, right?

: 1224

01:06:32,194 --> 01:06:35,884

So that may be litigation, but also

you want to find like, um, you know,

: 1225

01:06:35,884 --> 01:06:39,274

everything that relates to that, that,

that issue that we, we face and that

: 1226

01:06:39,324 --> 01:06:41,163

caused that, that bridge collapse, right?

: 1227

01:06:41,163 --> 01:06:43,634

So, um, that's one thing that.

: 1228

01:06:44,259 --> 01:06:49,409

Can only be achieved if you're able to

relate information to one another, right?

: 1229

01:06:49,419 --> 01:06:53,589

So you, you're able to relate,

okay, maybe that, that RFI here,

: 1230

01:06:53,589 --> 01:06:56,989

the answer came from that email and

then that came from here and there.

: 1231

01:06:57,209 --> 01:07:01,429

And currently the way that people do

it through our system is manual, right?

: 1232

01:07:01,429 --> 01:07:05,219

They're going to have to say, okay,

um, this relates to that and then

: 1233

01:07:05,249 --> 01:07:06,969

turn this email into an action item.

: 1234

01:07:06,969 --> 01:07:10,029

But what if the whole chain could,

could be done automatically, right?

: 1235

01:07:10,029 --> 01:07:13,199

What if you, when you're getting

your email and your inbox.

: 1236

01:07:14,259 --> 01:07:17,759

We file it automatically in the right

project because we were able to look at

: 1237

01:07:17,769 --> 01:07:22,709

who it's coming from, what's the title,

um, you know, of the, of the email.

: 1238

01:07:22,719 --> 01:07:25,279

We found the project name,

the project number, right?

: 1239

01:07:25,589 --> 01:07:28,439

And then AI file it into the right

project and it files it into the

: 1240

01:07:28,439 --> 01:07:29,639

right project activity, right?

: 1241

01:07:29,639 --> 01:07:32,349

It files it into the

series of action items.

: 1242

01:07:32,559 --> 01:07:36,229

It files it as an RFI, keeps the

relationship between the two.

: 1243

01:07:36,409 --> 01:07:38,599

And then that RFI became a change order.

: 1244

01:07:38,859 --> 01:07:41,729

And then as a result, you know, something

happened at the end of the project.

: 1245

01:07:41,939 --> 01:07:43,049

There's its Yashar, right?

: 1246

01:07:43,589 --> 01:07:47,519

And then you're able to trace back,

you know, all of, of the information

: 1247

01:07:47,609 --> 01:07:48,889

all the way to the beginning.

: 1248

01:07:48,939 --> 01:07:49,309

Right?

: 1249

01:07:49,649 --> 01:07:54,579

So, so that's an area where we've

been building AI is maintaining and

: 1250

01:07:54,589 --> 01:07:57,469

creating those relationship between

things, bringing the model at the

: 1251

01:07:57,469 --> 01:08:00,869

center of all the discussion so that

we can see what we're talking about.

: 1252

01:08:01,489 --> 01:08:04,559

Um, so that's, um,

that's, that's one thing.

: 1253

01:08:05,399 --> 01:08:05,929

And then

: 1254

01:08:05,989 --> 01:08:08,639

Randall Stevens: so from that Carl

just to dig in a little bit on that.

: 1255

01:08:09,419 --> 01:08:11,288

Do you all view do you?

: 1256

01:08:12,499 --> 01:08:17,549

Do you see the the 3d model

primarily as a navigation?

: 1257

01:08:17,549 --> 01:08:21,988

Navigation tool in this

world of information.

: 1258

01:08:22,149 --> 01:08:25,669

I mean, we think about that the model

is what's going to produce the drawings,

: 1259

01:08:25,669 --> 01:08:29,649

but a lot of it is also, if you're

pulling that up, even in the way you

: 1260

01:08:29,649 --> 01:08:33,198

were showing that you're connecting

other pieces of information into that,

: 1261

01:08:33,479 --> 01:08:40,419

is it a, is it, uh, is the 3d model seen

as a navigation tool in your old world?

: 1262

01:08:41,424 --> 01:08:44,724

Carl Veillette: Yeah, I think it is

like, the way I like to think about

: 1263

01:08:44,724 --> 01:08:48,493

it is that I want to make the data

the center of everything, right?

: 1264

01:08:48,564 --> 01:08:52,413

So when you think about a BIM

model, it's, it's a file, right?

: 1265

01:08:52,413 --> 01:08:57,834

And in a lot of, I'm not going

to mention any vendor names here,

: 1266

01:08:57,834 --> 01:09:01,443

but there are some vendors that

make everything file based, right?

: 1267

01:09:01,544 --> 01:09:02,644

We're trying to free.

: 1268

01:09:03,113 --> 01:09:09,214

Um, the data from the file itself and make

it universally accessible and searchable.

: 1269

01:09:09,493 --> 01:09:12,663

So you could navigate through the

data and then, you know, overlap a

: 1270

01:09:12,663 --> 01:09:16,604

drawing, overlap a model under like,

like almost like layers, basically,

: 1271

01:09:16,604 --> 01:09:18,493

of information that you can overlap.

: 1272

01:09:19,024 --> 01:09:25,504

Um, so, so, the way that, that we're doing

it right now is, is we're extracting the

: 1273

01:09:25,504 --> 01:09:27,714

information from the 3D model, right?

: 1274

01:09:28,224 --> 01:09:32,033

And that 3D model was made available

at a certain point in time.

: 1275

01:09:32,054 --> 01:09:34,533

So it has, it has a timestamp.

: 1276

01:09:34,953 --> 01:09:39,634

So now we're able to create a history

of the design evolution, right?

: 1277

01:09:39,634 --> 01:09:43,254

So we can consume that information

with the model and then tie it back

: 1278

01:09:43,264 --> 01:09:46,203

with specific project activities

that have the same time range.

: 1279

01:09:46,794 --> 01:09:48,934

Um, so that relationship

that we can create.

: 1280

01:09:48,934 --> 01:09:52,314

So when you're looking at an email,

for instance, right, there's going

: 1281

01:09:52,314 --> 01:09:54,324

to be locations mentioned in there.

: 1282

01:09:54,324 --> 01:09:55,204

There's going to be.

: 1283

01:09:55,614 --> 01:09:57,434

Um, assets, right?

: 1284

01:09:57,654 --> 01:10:02,594

So let's say you're talking about

mechanical room, um, 403, right?

: 1285

01:10:02,624 --> 01:10:05,014

And then you'd be able, you

would be able to click on that

: 1286

01:10:05,264 --> 01:10:06,454

and then jump to the model.

: 1287

01:10:06,514 --> 01:10:08,934

And that relationship is made by AI.

: 1288

01:10:09,304 --> 01:10:12,094

Or if, if you're, you feel

comfortable not getting in 3d

: 1289

01:10:12,094 --> 01:10:15,134

and you want to see your RFIs and

seminars and emails in the 3d model.

: 1290

01:10:15,509 --> 01:10:17,619

Then you're going to be able

to display those also, right?

: 1291

01:10:17,619 --> 01:10:21,979

So you can, you can start with the model

in mind, or you can get to the model

: 1292

01:10:21,989 --> 01:10:25,279

from the activity that you're interacting

with, because you want to see, you

: 1293

01:10:25,279 --> 01:10:27,829

want to understand what

the design looks like.

: 1294

01:10:27,879 --> 01:10:30,459

So people are going to have the

choice to do both, basically.

: 1295

01:10:30,509 --> 01:10:33,014

Randall Stevens: It's like, you want to,

uh, Sometimes you want to think about

: 1296

01:10:33,014 --> 01:10:37,984

this as a chronology of, of things,

time based, other times it's spatially

: 1297

01:10:37,984 --> 01:10:42,634

based around the model and or you want

to kind of jump, jump back and forth

: 1298

01:10:42,634 --> 01:10:44,514

between those two kind of efficiently.

: 1299

01:10:44,514 --> 01:10:48,074

So, yeah, it's an interesting

thing to think, think about.

: 1300

01:10:48,604 --> 01:10:49,534

It's complex, right?

: 1301

01:10:49,534 --> 01:10:52,529

It's what makes this fun.

: 1302

01:10:52,929 --> 01:10:53,309

Carl Veillette: Yep.

: 1303

01:10:54,349 --> 01:10:56,279

And it's shape, shape shifting too, right?

: 1304

01:10:56,279 --> 01:11:00,439

You think about the model and the

locations of the information, like when

: 1305

01:11:00,439 --> 01:11:02,089

you're already staging the project.

: 1306

01:11:02,754 --> 01:11:07,224

You've got maybe, uh, you know, uh,

let's say, uh, a corridor is right

: 1307

01:11:07,224 --> 01:11:10,734

here and then three months after

design changing, it's right there.

: 1308

01:11:10,924 --> 01:11:14,834

So how do you, how do you maintain

the relationship between locations

: 1309

01:11:15,304 --> 01:11:17,844

and other information, right?

: 1310

01:11:18,424 --> 01:11:23,314

So that's, I guess, a topic that,

um, was quite, uh, explored at the

: 1311

01:11:23,334 --> 01:11:27,234

Construction Progress Coalition with,

uh, Nathan Wood a few years ago, right?

: 1312

01:11:27,284 --> 01:11:31,429

And, uh, You know, the contractor,

like, they don't, they don't

: 1313

01:11:31,429 --> 01:11:33,349

have the, the walls built, right?

: 1314

01:11:33,349 --> 01:11:38,059

So they're referring to locations, you

know, for, from, you know, the edge of a

: 1315

01:11:38,059 --> 01:11:40,729

slab or, you know, possibly a grid line.

: 1316

01:11:41,259 --> 01:11:45,219

Um, and then the architect in the

office, like, they've got the, you

: 1317

01:11:45,219 --> 01:11:48,279

know, the model with the full layout

of the floor, you know, display on

: 1318

01:11:48,279 --> 01:11:51,479

screen, and now they're referring

with locations with room names, right?

: 1319

01:11:51,834 --> 01:11:55,504

So, there's miscommunication

happening between the parties, right?

: 1320

01:11:55,524 --> 01:11:58,844

So, um, I think that's an interesting,

you know, challenge in how people

: 1321

01:11:58,844 --> 01:12:00,084

communicate with locations.

: 1322

01:12:00,484 --> 01:12:04,214

Um, sometimes, you know, maybe buildings,

sometimes maybe levels, sometimes

: 1323

01:12:04,264 --> 01:12:06,054

maybe gridlines, sometimes maybe rooms.

: 1324

01:12:06,494 --> 01:12:11,004

And, depending on if you're on the field

or in the office, like, you, you know,

: 1325

01:12:11,014 --> 01:12:13,894

your preferred way of communicating

things are, are, are different.

: 1326

01:12:13,894 --> 01:12:17,784

And that's causing, I think, uh,

issues on the project sometimes.

: 1327

01:12:18,309 --> 01:12:21,029

Randall Stevens: Yeah, the, uh, I was

just thinking about, you know, you're,

: 1328

01:12:21,159 --> 01:12:25,529

you were talking a few minutes ago about

the, uh, just that the amount of data,

: 1329

01:12:25,789 --> 01:12:27,579

uh, you know, just keeps increasing.

: 1330

01:12:27,579 --> 01:12:32,969

And we were talking about that, you

know, and, uh, here just recently, and

: 1331

01:12:32,969 --> 01:12:38,099

it's, uh, you know, I think it's just

so that just to remind everybody, it's

: 1332

01:12:38,099 --> 01:12:41,299

like, if you're, the numbers that I've

heard, you know, it's like doubling,

: 1333

01:12:41,309 --> 01:12:43,039

you're doubling the basically volume.

: 1334

01:12:43,039 --> 01:12:46,729

And we, uh, we do a bunch of work

with a company called Ignite that's

: 1335

01:12:46,729 --> 01:12:49,749

on the file system side and they,

you know, they can tell you here's

: 1336

01:12:49,749 --> 01:12:53,019

how many files are being generated

and how much data is being generated.

: 1337

01:12:53,589 --> 01:12:57,639

And so a doubling right in 10

years is means you've got more

: 1338

01:12:57,639 --> 01:13:01,318

than 500 times the amount of

data if it's doubling every year.

: 1339

01:13:01,379 --> 01:13:02,599

It's like, so we forget.

: 1340

01:13:02,599 --> 01:13:03,059

It's like this

: 1341

01:13:03,329 --> 01:13:06,199

exponential, exponential

amount of info and data.

: 1342

01:13:06,609 --> 01:13:07,749

Um, you know.

: 1343

01:13:07,809 --> 01:13:11,709

I'll want to think about this some

more, but you know, I think that,

: 1344

01:13:11,729 --> 01:13:15,639

um, just that idea that you've

got all these different forms of

: 1345

01:13:15,649 --> 01:13:17,709

communication that are coming together.

: 1346

01:13:18,539 --> 01:13:23,289

The other thing, this maybe could be for

another, uh, another conversation, but

: 1347

01:13:23,289 --> 01:13:27,599

it's like, it kind of seems antithetical

because it seems like the younger

: 1348

01:13:27,699 --> 01:13:30,339

generation doesn't want to talk so much.

: 1349

01:13:30,339 --> 01:13:34,284

So Maybe there's less verbal

communication and more, maybe there

: 1350

01:13:34,284 --> 01:13:39,074

is more, uh, you know, chat, uh,

kind of chatting, uh, back and forth.

: 1351

01:13:39,114 --> 01:13:42,314

Cause I'm a lot of times I'm like,

just pick up the damn phone, like

: 1352

01:13:42,314 --> 01:13:44,124

just call and talk to somebody.

: 1353

01:13:44,124 --> 01:13:47,794

You will knock this out very quickly

instead of all this asynchronous,

: 1354

01:13:47,814 --> 01:13:49,984

you know, kind of communication

that goes back and forth.

: 1355

01:13:49,984 --> 01:13:53,364

But, uh, I don't know what you,

what you are seeing from the, from

: 1356

01:13:53,364 --> 01:13:57,174

that kind of data side, is it more

asynchronous communication or.

: 1357

01:13:57,659 --> 01:14:01,809

Are, are there voice and audio

conversations that are being recorded

: 1358

01:14:01,809 --> 01:14:03,129

as part of the record as well?

: 1359

01:14:04,359 --> 01:14:07,639

Carl Veillette: Yeah, I think I see

a lot of chatting and that's one

: 1360

01:14:07,639 --> 01:14:11,039

of the reasons, you know, why we,

we've, uh, we've been building those

: 1361

01:14:11,068 --> 01:14:13,068

Microsoft Teams kind of integration.

: 1362

01:14:13,068 --> 01:14:17,019

I think the newer generations are

using more this communication approach.

: 1363

01:14:17,559 --> 01:14:22,729

There's a case for, um, there's a strong

case for it because we've got, um,

: 1364

01:14:24,109 --> 01:14:30,729

actually it all started with one of our

customers lawyer recommended, um, And you

: 1365

01:14:30,729 --> 01:14:33,419

format to another, uh, potential customer.

: 1366

01:14:33,529 --> 01:14:38,179

Um, and the reason for that is because

on one of the projects, it's a Canadian

: 1367

01:14:38,179 --> 01:14:43,079

customer, and then they had a litigation

going on, and then someone did a thumbs up

: 1368

01:14:43,249 --> 01:14:47,049

on a chat in, in, in, in Microsoft Teams.

: 1369

01:14:47,829 --> 01:14:51,179

And then that thumbs up was

later recognized in court

: 1370

01:14:51,289 --> 01:14:52,939

as a yes.

: 1371

01:14:53,019 --> 01:14:56,449

And then they were able to save a

hundred thousand dollars on just

: 1372

01:14:56,579 --> 01:14:56,889

Randall Stevens: Hmm.

: 1373

01:14:57,954 --> 01:15:01,554

Carl Veillette: So, you know, most

of the firms, they don't think about

: 1374

01:15:01,554 --> 01:15:03,214

it because it's a change in how

: 1375

01:15:03,214 --> 01:15:06,774

people communicate, but it's creating,

it's creating a threat to their,

: 1376

01:15:06,894 --> 01:15:10,544

to their business because now you

don't have a full project record

: 1377

01:15:10,544 --> 01:15:11,794

because it's not project based.

: 1378

01:15:11,994 --> 01:15:14,074

There's conversation

between multiple peoples.

: 1379

01:15:14,084 --> 01:15:16,193

There's chats, you know,

all mixed together.

: 1380

01:15:16,504 --> 01:15:17,064

You can find the

: 1381

01:15:17,064 --> 01:15:18,254

information in there.

: 1382

01:15:18,734 --> 01:15:22,954

So the lack of governance around

that is causing issues for,

: 1383

01:15:23,074 --> 01:15:24,554

uh, risk for the customers,

: 1384

01:15:24,879 --> 01:15:27,679

Randall Stevens: are voice, you

know, a lot of times Zoom calls

: 1385

01:15:27,729 --> 01:15:31,249

are being recorded and then trans,

there's transcription, right?

: 1386

01:15:31,249 --> 01:15:32,429

That's happening of all that.

: 1387

01:15:32,829 --> 01:15:38,359

Uh, is that also happening with voice

calls from customer base that you see?

: 1388

01:15:39,179 --> 01:15:39,399

Are there

: 1389

01:15:41,109 --> 01:15:45,749

Carl Veillette: Yes, I've, I think the

transcripts, uh, I haven't had a case

: 1390

01:15:45,829 --> 01:15:49,439

on the transcript itself, but it's

something that we're looking at to, uh,

: 1391

01:15:49,449 --> 01:15:52,318

expand our backup for Microsoft Teams.

: 1392

01:15:52,339 --> 01:15:58,489

A lot of, a lot of customers don't have

an internal IT team and they don't think

: 1393

01:15:58,489 --> 01:16:04,079

about backing up their Microsoft Teams

data, uh, especially the SharePoint sites

: 1394

01:16:04,079 --> 01:16:08,409

that are getting created behind the, the

Microsoft Teams, um, you know, channels.

: 1395

01:16:09,024 --> 01:16:10,184

Um, so,

: 1396

01:16:10,289 --> 01:16:12,099

Randall Stevens: I don't know what,

you know, I'm just thinking about it,

: 1397

01:16:12,099 --> 01:16:15,429

you know, almost everybody now has got

to bring your own device, you know, so

: 1398

01:16:15,429 --> 01:16:18,179

they've got their iPhone or whatever

they're carrying in their pocket.

: 1399

01:16:18,749 --> 01:16:22,399

If they're making voice calls

off of that, you know, I don't, I

: 1400

01:16:22,399 --> 01:16:27,169

don't know if there's, those are

probably not being recorded, right?

: 1401

01:16:28,049 --> 01:16:32,599

by and large, you know, so there may

still be this synchronous conversations

: 1402

01:16:32,599 --> 01:16:35,539

that are going on, that there is

no record of what that was, unless

: 1403

01:16:35,539 --> 01:16:38,379

somebody goes back and puts that

into a series of notes or something

: 1404

01:16:38,379 --> 01:16:40,789

and, and, uh, puts it, puts it on the

: 1405

01:16:40,789 --> 01:16:41,179

record.

: 1406

01:16:41,179 --> 01:16:41,429

Right.

: 1407

01:16:42,804 --> 01:16:43,064

Carl Veillette: yeah.

: 1408

01:16:43,424 --> 01:16:48,544

I think Microsoft is putting quite a lot

of time in, in building transcripts and

: 1409

01:16:48,554 --> 01:16:55,794

those AI powered, um, meeting minutes,

um, and action items that get created with

: 1410

01:16:55,804 --> 01:16:56,744

copilot, right?

: 1411

01:16:56,794 --> 01:16:58,844

I think those are quite interesting.

: 1412

01:16:58,844 --> 01:17:01,864

Probably not there yet for, you

know, a hundred percent trust

: 1413

01:17:01,864 --> 01:17:03,604

kind of like, uh, stage, but.

: 1414

01:17:04,109 --> 01:17:08,009

Um, we're definitely looking

at not reinventing the wheels.

: 1415

01:17:08,049 --> 01:17:11,099

We're looking at how Microsoft evolved

with that and we'll be expanding

: 1416

01:17:11,099 --> 01:17:12,329

the scope of what we back up.

: 1417

01:17:12,329 --> 01:17:16,869

And maybe those become additional

information that we store into the system.

: 1418

01:17:17,559 --> 01:17:22,309

Those meeting minutes, transcriptions,

and, and, um, and action items.

: 1419

01:17:22,809 --> 01:17:27,059

Uh, the, I guess, I guess the

AI space is moving so fast.

: 1420

01:17:27,059 --> 01:17:30,599

Like I wouldn't be surprised if, you know,

in a year from now, like they're much

: 1421

01:17:30,599 --> 01:17:32,689

more accurate and people start to believe.

: 1422

01:17:32,849 --> 01:17:34,333

And so, um, I think it's really

important for, to, to believe what

: 1423

01:17:34,333 --> 01:17:36,229

they see in there and trust it more.

: 1424

01:17:36,229 --> 01:17:39,619

And I think that that is a bit of

a risk for the industry to, right.

: 1425

01:17:39,619 --> 01:17:41,869

Cause like, how much do you

trust AI versus your own

: 1426

01:17:42,369 --> 01:17:42,619

Randall Stevens: Yep.

: 1427

01:17:42,898 --> 01:17:45,179

Carl Veillette: Um, how far should you go?

: 1428

01:17:45,179 --> 01:17:49,049

And I mean, people have a short

attention span these days, right?

: 1429

01:17:49,049 --> 01:17:49,789

It's no surprise.

: 1430

01:17:49,789 --> 01:17:53,759

It's like social media, you've got

TikTok and you've got Instagram.

: 1431

01:17:54,104 --> 01:17:57,244

You know, people like, they consume

information so quickly, right?

: 1432

01:17:57,264 --> 01:18:01,784

If they have to read a whole email,

that's like three page long, they're

: 1433

01:18:01,804 --> 01:18:02,614

not going to do it.

: 1434

01:18:02,634 --> 01:18:03,384

And that's a bit of a

: 1435

01:18:03,384 --> 01:18:03,943

problem.

: 1436

01:18:04,909 --> 01:18:05,099

Randall Stevens: Yeah.

: 1437

01:18:05,099 --> 01:18:09,929

I think, uh, uh, you know, along

that line, one, I think it is moving.

: 1438

01:18:10,394 --> 01:18:14,814

Pretty quickly and I think people

will, I don't think it'll take that

: 1439

01:18:14,814 --> 01:18:18,834

long before they begin trusting it,

uh, just because they, they will want

: 1440

01:18:18,844 --> 01:18:21,904

to trust it so they can move on with

whatever else is that they're wanting

: 1441

01:18:22,224 --> 01:18:23,644

to do instead of dwelling on it.

: 1442

01:18:23,704 --> 01:18:28,384

So, but, but I think that's in the year

or two year, three year kind of timeframe.

: 1443

01:18:28,384 --> 01:18:30,114

Is this stuff progressive.

: 1444

01:18:30,164 --> 01:18:35,943

I, you know, I think back to, you know,

my first touch with Uber, you know, 20,

: 1445

01:18:35,994 --> 01:18:38,044

probably it was 25, I can go back, of us.

: 1446

01:18:38,614 --> 01:18:42,624

I was actually, I can remember when I,

the 1st 1 I took, because I was, it was

: 1447

01:18:42,634 --> 01:18:45,364

whenever built conference was in DC.

: 1448

01:18:45,773 --> 01:18:48,374

So it might've been: 2014

: 1449

01:18:48,684 --> 01:18:53,114

I'd have to go back and look, but I

remember arriving and we were doing 1

: 1450

01:18:53,114 --> 01:18:56,773

of those 1st building content summits,

and I needed to go to the store.

: 1451

01:18:57,349 --> 01:18:59,699

and get something to, for the conference.

: 1452

01:18:59,709 --> 01:19:04,979

So I took, that was my first Uber and,

uh, but to the, to this context, it's

: 1453

01:19:04,979 --> 01:19:07,269

like, that was a weird experience, right?

: 1454

01:19:07,519 --> 01:19:11,389

The first time you have those kinds of

experiences, it's like, this is strange.

: 1455

01:19:11,389 --> 01:19:12,049

This is weird.

: 1456

01:19:12,068 --> 01:19:12,359

But,

: 1457

01:19:13,089 --> 01:19:17,829

but man, you know, within a year,

I'm sure it was like, this is the

: 1458

01:19:17,829 --> 01:19:19,389

best thing since sliced bread, right?

: 1459

01:19:19,789 --> 01:19:20,229

Uh,

: 1460

01:19:20,249 --> 01:19:25,889

so, so I think we're, I think, you know,

that those experiences and the positive

: 1461

01:19:25,889 --> 01:19:30,959

part of those experiences, you know,

moved, moved everybody along very quickly.

: 1462

01:19:31,068 --> 01:19:35,879

I mean, I can remember my, my, uh,

in laws they were like, You know,

: 1463

01:19:35,879 --> 01:19:37,269

you would get in somebody else's car.

: 1464

01:19:37,269 --> 01:19:39,679

It's like, so I always think

about these things as risk.

: 1465

01:19:40,068 --> 01:19:45,209

It's what you're really asking

somebody to do is how risky is

: 1466

01:19:45,209 --> 01:19:46,999

it for me to trust that thing.

: 1467

01:19:47,229 --> 01:19:51,534

So as you go on that risk

continuum, You're going to

: 1468

01:19:51,534 --> 01:19:53,534

say, well, trust, but verify.

: 1469

01:19:53,874 --> 01:19:56,023

I need two or three more eyes on this.

: 1470

01:19:56,244 --> 01:20:00,134

I'm not going to completely trust that,

but things that are not that risky

: 1471

01:20:00,264 --> 01:20:03,184

down the other end of the spectrum,

you're just going to say, all right,

: 1472

01:20:03,224 --> 01:20:04,374

I'll move on to the next thing.

: 1473

01:20:04,374 --> 01:20:09,374

It'll either, either it doesn't really

matter or it'll get caught, right?

: 1474

01:20:09,404 --> 01:20:10,724

At some point in the process.

: 1475

01:20:10,724 --> 01:20:15,193

So I think, uh, I think that stuff's

going to move along, uh, pretty quickly.

: 1476

01:20:16,443 --> 01:20:16,693

Carl Veillette: Yep.

: 1477

01:20:17,434 --> 01:20:17,624

Randall Stevens: Anyway.

: 1478

01:20:18,874 --> 01:20:19,434

Well, great.

: 1479

01:20:19,544 --> 01:20:23,744

Well, uh, I took, I took what was

supposed to be done 20 minutes ago

: 1480

01:20:23,744 --> 01:20:27,584

and turned it into another part of the

conversation, but this stuff's fun.

: 1481

01:20:27,594 --> 01:20:28,414

You know, this is fun.

: 1482

01:20:28,594 --> 01:20:33,734

I'm actually at the, uh, I'm at the, I'm

about halfway through an eight and a half,

: 1483

01:20:34,094 --> 01:20:38,474

eight and a half hour podcast from Alex

Friedman talking to the Neuralink team.

: 1484

01:20:38,784 --> 01:20:41,044

It's like a, it's not one giant interview.

: 1485

01:20:41,054 --> 01:20:44,689

It's like a series of interviews,

but man, it is so, Interesting.

: 1486

01:20:44,689 --> 01:20:47,659

It's like, I just sat last night and

watched like two more hours of it.

: 1487

01:20:47,659 --> 01:20:52,349

It's just, these guys are uber, uber

smart and it's fun, uh, you know, to

: 1488

01:20:52,349 --> 01:20:56,068

get people like yourself, Carl on here

talking about these things and, uh,

: 1489

01:20:56,739 --> 01:21:00,669

uh, little, little glimpse of behind

the scenes and, and just a free flowing

: 1490

01:21:00,679 --> 01:21:01,909

conversation about these things.

: 1491

01:21:01,909 --> 01:21:03,589

So, uh, appreciate you being on.

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