This one's for my city folks - nature isn't just for the burbs! And BTW, I thought I knew what I meant by "plant time" but this chat with my friend, the ever-poetic Joél Leon, put it on a whole new level.

[marked "explicit" for its authentic NYC language only]

For a constant feed of wisdom from Joél Leon, check out his Instagram.

Want to see pics from the garden? Instagram: @freshclippings

Show art by Alison McKenzie

Production guidance from Evan Roberts

Special thanks to Jeremy Bloom

Episode music from Blue Dot Sessions:

Our Son the Potter (Love and Weasel)

Pigpaddle Creek (Sour Mash)

Gamboler (Pglet)

Pili Piper (Pglet)

Frank and Poet (Reflections)

Tofa can you hear me?

Yo.

Yep.

Yeah.

I can hear you.

Can you hear me?

Yeah, man, loud and clear.

Good to see you

Likewise man, you look great.

You sound great.

yeah.

Back at you.

Yeah.

Discovering my new hometown of Portland through working with my garden has

been so beautiful and satisfying.

But lately I've also been thinking about where I've come

from before moving out here.

I lived in New York City for 15 years, and so that's why

I called my friend Joel Leon.

Besides being a prolific Instagram poet and brilliant speaker,

He actually gave a TED Talk.

He's a lifelong New Yorker, and I wanted to talk about

gardening for all my city folks.

We connected earlier this summer and our call had all the sounds that brought me

right back to Brooklyn, the window AC unit, people moving in other rooms of the

apartment, even a classic door buzzer.

Our conversation took turns I never expected

and actually left me feeling really deeply moved.

I think you'll enjoy it too.

So come on, let's get back to Brooklyn.

Introduce me to your plant that you got going on in the back too.

Well, so I think this is, is this Tina or Aretha

Bria named these plants, man.

So like, I think this is Aretha.

Aretha is the one that's actually doing better than Tina.

Tina is in the, um, in the living room and like the way, the way the plant

is situated, it's getting the right amount of light, but the kids just

be walking and running through it.

And now we got a puppy.

So they like, he be trying to chew on shit.

This is, you know, but this one, but I think this is aha.

Aretha is doing well.

I don't, I don't talk to her.

I don't, I mean, not cuz like I'm ignoring her, but like that's this is Bri's plan.

Like I just be chilling, you know, it's just black here

in the background, you know?

Yeah.

Well, she brings a lot of dignity and a lot of gravitas to the frame.

So

I love that.

I love

she's well named

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

. Look at you.

Exactly name, perfect name perfectly.

Like, should I give you a little bit of like a, a, like a

heads up of like what the podcast is about and stuff like that?

I mean, I, I, I, I mean, you kind of gave me, I feel like you gave me a

pretty good, um, synopsis of the DMS, but Cuz I did what, what I did after we

DMed, I went, I went to the page cause I there's like a there's um, I just

love the idea of, um, like plant time in general, cuz I think plant time with

the way you're speaking to it's really interchangeable with anything that allows

us the opportunity to be present and like find like, you know, joy in that presence.

You know, whether that's like, if that, but it's, it is rooted in

something it's rooted in something that I think is very, um, important.

Right.

Which is like nature, you know, like even when, when we're talking

about climate change, it's, it's, it's easy to take for granted, um,

how much we need the earth, right?

Like how much it feeds us on a daily basis that we take for granted in

so many ways, especially, and it it's easy to, to do I think in urban

environments because it's like, oh.

I don't have a backyard or, oh, I don't have this much access to nature in this

way or that way, but it's like, you know, what, how much trees affect, um, trees

affect environments and neighborhoods, which, which environments, lack trees and

you know, who has access to a park and who doesn't like so much of this is, is, is

also like so much of what you're talking about is also a bigger conversation around

why nature is important to communities.

So, yeah, I, I, I love this man.

I think that's, I mean, some of the stuff you're bringing up is

exactly why I wanted to talk with you.

One of the things that I was actually curious about is just in terms

of born and raised in the Bronx,

Yeah.

when you think of sort of like, it's easy for me to be like,

oh my mom and I would go in my backyard and she would show me how

to like plant cucumbers or something.

And that is my upbringing as a person who grew up in a position of privilege and if

a certain like income level, family level, et cetera, um, that isn't something that's

necessarily available for everybody, . So for me, there's two questions.

One is that like, I'd love to hear a little bit more about.

Your upbringing was like, and how you interacted with nature in that

regard, like what was nature and gardening to you in the Bronx?

Um, and then related to that is like, , even though I lived in

New York for 15 years, I still have like a suburban bias, right.

Where I'm like, emotionally having a response sometimes that's like,

when I think about the urban L.

sometimes I can think about it and think that it like feels

like it's different than nature.

And when in fact nature is still all around you in an urban environment too.

So I'm curious to kind of run those two ideas by you and see

where some of that takes you.

. ? Joel: But I think so.

I mean, lets I mean, first of all, I mean those are really great questions

and I think the suburban bias is what also thank you for acknowledging that.

I think also, I mean, cuz I think growing up in the, growing up

in the Bronx, we didn't really.

Okay.

Nature was different for us.

And depending on where you grew up in which neighborhood you grew up in, and

even honestly, what school you, you grew up in, um, in like who your teachers

were so much of the environments.

And I think this is why they, I mean, some of the suburban biases justified

is because depending on the environment you grew up in and who you had access to

determined your relationship to nature.

Right?

cuz most of my friends growing up, our parents were immigrants.

Like they came from the Caribbean, they came from environments

where it was like, you know, they were fully immersed in nature.

Right?

Like my mom grew up in Dominica like an island, you know?

So like she could go climb a tree and grab a coconut or a mango or the

beach was literally right by a house.

Like my mom grew up.

Like we had a lot of land.

And so, you know, my, my, my grandfather had chickens and Brewsters and goats.

Like you would just go in the backyard and, and, and kill a goat.

And that was dinner.

Like that's, that's why my mom grew up.

Um, but that, wasn't a thing that was necessary possible here.

. , . like New York makes you just work a little bit harder for things.

It's not like there isn't nature, but in order to get to it, you have to take

the Metro north or you have, or you need a car in order to drive an hour to

upstate or go to the outskirts of like Westchester or like Dobbs ferry, where

you're going to be engaging with nature.

That's essentially in your backyard.

Um, but I think, I think people run amiss when they don't realize that there is

nature here, you know, it's different and it's not the same as the nature you

would get growing up in, uh, you know, a Maine or, you know, um, or Utah, like

where, like, you know, you could almost look out of a window and, and see mountain

side, like California, you can just hop in your car and drive up and down to PCH.

And like, you're already there.

You know, um, this is more work required here.

It's not as accessible.

Um, but it's here just requires people being invested in

nurturing the nature around us.

Us and making a commitment to expose ourselves and each other to it, you know?

I was curious if you had any community gardens in your area, because

that was one of the things that challenged my conception of what a city is and looks

like, is that when I moved to the first place I lived in was basically east

village right above the lower east side.

And there are tons of community gardens, every block or two there's a

different community garden tended by different people in the neighborhood.

And that was really mind blowing to me that actually, once I kind of got it and

realized that if you were in a helicopter and pulled up and looked down, you were

looking at this patchwork quilt with a lot of little blocks of green and together.

That's why you have birds when you wake up in the morning

Mmm.

Mm.

just pigeons.

That's why you can have this smell of green.

Or you can have people who have fresh herbs or fresh tomatoes.

And that really challenged in some ways, my assumptions that I

had been given about, like what.

And urban landscape is supposed to look like.

you know, like even when we think about farmer's markets now, right.

And when we talk about access to herbs and you're also seeing, I think even

now the proliferation of a lot of black folks, black and brown folks,

especially trying to get back to the root.

Right.

And so like, oh, if I'm not living in the south, I can still tend to a garden the

same way my grandmother used to do back when, you know what I'm saying before,

before the great migration happened.

And so you're starting to see a lot of black folks investing in, oh, I, I have

a little piece of slice of a, of a, of a garden that I can put on my fire escape.

Or if I have, if I have property or if I'm renting a place that has a

backyard, oh, I can maybe grow some herbs here, maybe some onions here.

I can figure out what works here.

I think it's really interesting that you mention that because to me,

that's one of the things that I think is fundamental about gardening that.

Is healing is the ability to interact with land, even if it's on your

fire escape and in a little pot

Mm.

like rooting and you're connected to something that is longer

than just that day, that week it's connected to a year, a season, um,

your ability to be in that place.

. Joel: Yeah.

how that connects to your concept of maybe gardening or being with nature.

And there's elements of that, that feel true for your backgrounder

that you see in your life now.

Well, I think, you know, the, the first thing that

comes to mind to me are trees.

You know, I kind of, I spoke to it earlier, but like I love trees.

I love trees.

And I think when I think about roots and soil and dirt, there's so much suit to

your point over there's so much history.

Right.

And, and there's so much.

Seru history, even in just like a tree, right?

Like you look at a tree, it's easy to forget how long it's been here and how

long it's gonna be here after we're gone.

Right.

There's like a whole, there's like multitudes of lives lived in,

in, in these pieces of, of earth that are coming from the ground.

And like also too in the dirt, you know, like gardening and you kind of

touched on this, even if we're doing it separately, you know, gardening

is a very communal experience.

Um, I think because there is this, there is the, the process of like

uprooting the process of preparing land dirt for the arrival of something.

Um, I think that is a process that is a shared thing.

Um, and then I think too, there's like, you know, you know, already

there's a community, right.

And I think the more we can find ways to.

embrace the communities that mean and speak to us the, the better we are, right?

Like you, you kind of touched on it earlier as well, that

makes the world better.

And it can easily feel like this small act of planting a seed, you

know, um, is not doing anything.

But like planting seeds is very much a thing that comes from the idea

of earth, where like, we're talking about plant seeds that are going to

grow into something that are going to grow into a harvest of things.

And that, that harvest could be something that's as small as like a

container that's like three by four, or it could be the planting of a

business or whatever, but all these things live in community of each other.

And I think for me, when I look at a tree, I think of how a

tree exists in all these things.

. Topher: Yeah.

That makes me think.

A lot of, one of the reasons that I wanted to talk with you in the first, that kind

of inspired me to be like, I need to get Joel and like kick ideas around with him.

Um, you know, you're talking about creating life.

Um, and one of the areas that I feel that very emotionally.

Yep.

Is when I read your Instagram post, like, I feel like that is an act

of creation and an act of kind of like sharing and love, um, that, and, and

specifically I went back and hunted cuz I was like, I know there's like a post.

And I found the post that was like, okay, I need to unpack this more with you.

Cuz it feels so timely to not just what we're talking about, but also in general

sort of like the vibe that I get from reading, what you share on Instagram.

Um, and so it's life hack name one of your plants after you.

So when you talk to it, when you feed it, love water, light and affirmations,

you'll be telling and feeding yourself, all the things you need.

And I think that is beautiful.

Cuz I name my plants.

You name your plants.

You've got Aretha hanging out right behind you.

Yeah,

Um, but I'm wondering if you sort of share, like, what were you

thinking when you went into that?

Like, you know, what does that bring back for you?

I don't know if you've thought about that idea in a while.

I haven't.

But you bringing it up has made me try to recall where that came from.

And I feel like,

I think it literally, I, I can't remember who it was.

A friend of mine, I think had bought a plan and.

, they put up one of those like prompts on, on like a IG story.

Like what should I name my plant?

And I was like, oh, well, you know, actually it might be a good idea.

And I think I started typing it.

And then I was like, oh wait, I think this is actually a great way for people to come

back to self, you know, because you know, I mean to, you're familiar with like how I

show up in social and just, I think in the world in general, and it, it was like, how

do we, how do we best affirm ourselves?

And for me, it was like, oh, you talk to a plant.

And I think that's what it was to knowing.

Like there's certain things you're supposed to do in order to help

nurture the life of a plant.

And it's like, oh, you should name the plant yourself.

If you're going to, and, or name it something, that's going to be a reminder

to you to pour love back into yourself.

Cuz you have to take care of this thing in the same way you take care of a

plant, you absolutely should be taking care of yourself in the similar fashion.

Like you have to water your plant a certain amount of times over the court,

depending on what the plant is, right.

Whether it's every day, every week, once a month, whatever.

Um, but there's still an intentionality behind it.

Like there's a focus behind it.

And I think so.

We get caught up in the, the, the, uh, the elevator, right.

Of like, I gotta do this, I gotta do this.

I gotta do this.

Or we're stuck on the hamster wheel of like, where's the next thing.

And the, the plant time is essentially you asking folks to slow down and

be intentional about the time that's invested in the personal care.

You know, and for me, naming a plant yourself is it's more, it's not even

really about naming the plant after you.

It's the reminder that you need to be taking care of yourself as much as you do

this plant that you've put a lot of money into probably, you know, like there's

like, and like now having a plan, like having a house playing is like a thing.

Right.

It's cool.

You know?

So like people take pictures of it on Instagram, they take care of it,

but it's like, when's the last time you ordered yourself, you know, and

wanting to get, like, I try to create.

Prompts for people that are servicing them in a way that's like, oh, I need to

slow down for a minute and not get caught in an algorithm and ask some of these

questions and part, like, part of that was like the life hack, I think in that way.

I mean, it's, I like, it's making me smile from my heart.

Like I'm not even just like smiling on my face, just like that idea, because it's so

connected to like a totally different way of thinking, you know, like that idea of

the love that you put into something first off, recognizing that it's love, rather

than thinking about it, like a chore.

Mm.

Yeah.

that you can turn that into something that you do for yourself as well

Mm.

something that we, it looks like easy to double tap on Instagram,

but actually, if you think about it, it's really revolutionary to think

about how you bring that into it's like small little practices into your life.

Like , all you do is give it plan a nickname.

And then that unlocks a totally different way of thinking.

You know, I mean, there's a, there's a lot of reasons

why I, I, I, I love utopian.

I'm a fan of you.

I, I think part of that, like how you frame that I think is important

because like you choosing to garden that's, that is an act of love.

Like when we talk about the bell hooks of the world, the RJ Lords of

the world, what I've been employing a lot of us to do more of is yes.

Like it put it in your safe thing on Instagram, share it on IG stories.

But Tara Brock talks often.

Taking the practice off the mat.

Right?

Like we do these things and it's like, oh, I engage with this post.

Yes girl.

Yes.

Queen.

Yeah, my brother, I love this.

And it's like, then you go to work and you're a douche bag.

it's like, like, what are you doing?

Like, how are, how are we implementing the practice?

And I think part of that is recognizing that everything we do gets to be a

revolutionary act of love everything.

And I think so often people would ask me, um, like, how do

you show up as yourself at work?

And I was like, what I, for me, what I do is I don't, I take

my practice with me everywhere.

There was no place where my practice is not going to be valid and valuable.

And so much of what we forget to do is like, I show up with love because I want

folks to feel like they can embrace that the totality of that, wherever they are.

So like, if I'm in a, if I'm in a meeting about, I don't know, cars and

we're talking about cars and it's like, there gets to be love in this space.

And like, I want us for like really quickly just to remove ourselves from

the idea that the work that we're doing is only about the work that we're doing.

You know, like it can be so much more than that.

And if we allow just a small kernel that.

Into the room.

If we in, if we create the invitation for that, if I do that, somebody else

might feel inclined to do that too.

Maybe not on the call, I'm on with them right now, but maybe three

calls later or a month later.

And that's what seed planting is.

It's like, I'm not, you know, we want this, like the act of gardening is so

beautiful to me because what you're saying is I am investing in this process and I

don't necessarily know what the outcome, even if I do all the things, you know,

like it might not be successful, but I'm invested in the process, you know?

And you know, that's what love is, it's the process.

Yeah.

You know,

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's beautiful.

Well, I'm gonna let you get back to being a human and a dad and like a,

a, a person who has other things in their life, uh, besides just talking

with me, but I really, I appreciate you spending this much time with me.

I feel like.

This, uh, exploration of these ideas has really been a blessing.

And I just am so grateful to have like shared this time to just kinda like,

talk about all this crazy stuff with

Same, same Trevor.

This is beautiful, man.

And like, I'm glad that you do reach out to me about this and like I'm, I'm

always gonna be here for that work.

So like, anytime, man, this is, this is great.

For Clippings, this is Tofa Burns.