This week Andy and I start out debriefing the ASU-GSV conference and explore why the open and optimistic spirit of that gathering feels so at odds with the vibe that prevails across much of ed reform these days. That leads to a discussion about Andy’s widely read article about ed reformers needing to buck up and realize the progress that has been made in recent decades. That leads me to chime in about the need to keep a decades-long view in order to appreciate the accomplishments of the charter school movement. We then talk about the fact that many ed reformers are in blue contexts, which are also the most difficult politically, and so the voice of those Folk is loud enough to drive the national narrative among ed reformers regarding prospects for continued impact, We close with Andy identifying the political folly of blues at a national level not embracing greater ed reform and charter schools as a way to win over critically needed swing voters.

SHOW NOTES:

• ASU-GSV "Brave New World" keynote from Michael Moe
• Vinod Khosla interview from ASU-GSV
• “Buck Up!” article from Eduwonk 
• Economist on YouGov Poll
• The live WonkyFolk episode where we both praise Starlee: Video | Audio
• Eduwonk’s Public Relationists V. Achievement Realists 
• Article about Proposal to change a school in Gainesville, Florida to selective admissions
• CharterFolk post about charter school history not being "a bucket of ashes."

Hey, Andy, how you doing?

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Andy Rotherham: Hey, Jed, how are you?

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It's been a minute, as the kids say.

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Jed Wallace: Yeah, it's

been a little while.

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Just schedule's crazy.

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I'm glad we found some time here.

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Andy Rotherham: Yeah, and I've been

traveling a whole bunch so it's a lot.

8

I like we really should pre plan wardrobe,

because I like that today we both

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decided to go with the with the hoodies.

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Jed Wallace: Yeah if anything comes across

as intentional at Charterfolk or Wonkyfolk

11

people are making wrong inferences.

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Yeah, no,

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Andy Rotherham: it's funny.

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I I it's unseasonably chilly here.

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We're recording on a Monday actually

was out on the water with Kevin

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Kosar, shad fishing this morning.

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It was quite cold, but so I

usually I'm one of my colleagues.

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She told me that when I wear a hoodie, it

makes me look like a Teletubby, so I tend

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to stay, I tend to steer clear of them,

but it's a little chilly, so it felt good.

20

It felt good today.

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Jed Wallace: I know that last week you

were in San Diego because I know that

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Bellwether had a big presence there.

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Andy Rotherham: Yeah,

where it was not cold.

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Jed Wallace: I wasn't able to go

because of other travel stuff.

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I'm going to start making it

now, something on my calendar I'm

26

going to plan to go to every year.

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But I wanted to ask you, given that you

were there, given that you presented,

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you had this whole AI thing going.

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I've now talked about a

dozen people about it.

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I've wanted to write about it

at Charterfolk, but I thought,

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Hey, wait, don't I, why don't

I check in with Andy first?

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Do you have any observations

you would share from what

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you're picking up down there?

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Andy Rotherham: Yeah, I

don't go all the time.

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There's that there's South by

Southwest, you can only, you

36

can only do so many of these.

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And I am to some extent of the mind

that conferences are, they're like

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they're like a socially acceptable

alternative to work, right?

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If you put on your, if you put

on your expense report, like I'm

40

flying to California and going to

happy hour for three days, your

41

boss would be like, yeah, hell no.

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But if you're like, I'm going to

this thing, which is essentially

43

going to happy hour for three days.

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People are like, Oh yeah, sure.

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And so it's, and so it's

a lot, it's intense.

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There's just a ton of people.

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And there's two kinds, in my experience,

there's two kinds of people that

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there's people, everybody's trying to

get time with, and then there's people

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trying to get time with everybody.

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I'm sure it's exhausting on both sides.

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But so it's just it's an intense

couple of days to be out there.

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But there's a lot of energy.

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What they've built first of all, is And

Deb Quazzo might deserve a lot of credit.

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It's a force of nature.

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And now there's all these

spinoffs from it and smaller ones.

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And that's remarkable and they

deserve, if you've built something

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like that, you deserve in this

field, a lot of credit for it.

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For sure.

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Yeah.

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And they're both like super

just interesting driven people.

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Obviously not surprisingly, like

the big theme this year was AI.

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We did a little happy hour for Bellwether

with a couple of folks working on

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AI to talk about is it undersold?

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Or or overhyped.

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And that was fascinating.

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And that was the theme across it.

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I will, I do have to say, I tend to agree.

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I had to ask people I've

moderated that thing.

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I asked people for a show of hands on

what percent of companies that were

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there this year would be back next year.

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Cause they would still be around.

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And they said about, like 50 percent

and a lot of people were saying like 20.

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I don't know if I'm quite that bearish,

but I do think a lot of these, it's

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more frothy than I had thought.

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And I'm not sure even because a lot of

the like savvy ed tech investors, the

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private equity and the venture folks

in that space, they're really keeping

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their powdered more dry on this thing.

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So I'm not sure where that's

exactly all coming from.

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Coming from, but there's just

a lot of AI companies, some

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that were really interesting.

81

I had dinner with the CEO of a company

that does instructional coaching using

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AI, which actually has some really

interesting benefits that including

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teachers, when you're first starting out,

I remember, when I was first learning,

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you don't want people necessarily.

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Hovering over your shoulder.

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And this is a way to get like

real time feedback, coaching all

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that, but in a more sort of almost

like private confidential way.

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And so it's some real benefits there.

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Lots of the rap, but then lots of tutoring

and instructional kind of stuff too.

90

So some really, I think some

really interesting applications.

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And some that I think are frothy.

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My own personal take

is like other ed tech.

93

It's the stuff that surrounds Classrooms,

remember you, you'll remember this.

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Like the early days, like rocket ship ever

is it's the ed tech school and they were

95

obviously doing that, but there was like

a lot of real instruction going on, really

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like in person, like it was not like

the kids just weren't like being taught.

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By computers, right?

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Yeah.

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Same thing is true.

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Like when school one got going, a lot

of these things they're tech enabled

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and tech fuel, but they're not.

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And so I tend to think though, with

this round on AI, a lot of this

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stuff's going to be all this stuff

you can wrap around the classroom.

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So all kinds of analytics, ways to

make teachers jobs so much easier.

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I think we're going to look back

on the days of like teachers doing

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IEPs the way they do in a lot of

paperwork and be like, that's crazy.

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All of that.

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That's where I think that a lot of

the action is that could actually be

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transformative transportation, obviously

lots of stuff around logistics efficiency,

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which, no one wanted to, I was struck.

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No one like the big lie that continues

is that this is going to have no

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impact on, on, on employment numbers.

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And right.

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I just don't see it.

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You've got these three trends.

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One is the immediate one, which is ESSR.

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And that was, there was

like a hiring binge.

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And that's gonna be an issue.

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Then you got the demographic

changes, just declining enrollment.

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And then third, like you have to.

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Think this is going to have some

kinds of impact on productivity.

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I don't think it's going

to eliminate teachers.

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Like I was just saying, these schools

are not, but it's going to have an

124

impact on adult employment, but like

everybody's pretending like that's

125

not the case and I'm curious when

that sort of bubble will break.

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And there'll be some sort of taboo

breaker or permission structure

127

for people to talk about that.

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Jed Wallace: There've been three

themes of conversations I've had

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for with people that were there.

130

Some were really focusing on.

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Just how real this AI thing is now.

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And it just seems like this is a

fundamentally different technology.

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And there's a bunch of like envelopes

that are being built around ChatGPT

134

and some of the other engines.

135

90 percent of those envelopes

are probably going to go away.

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But hey, there really is something

profoundly exciting and new.

137

There's the other group I would say is

Oh, my gosh, the AI is just so overhyped.

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And, it's far too early to know

what its value is really going

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to be, or, all that stuff.

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But the one that I would say is

overarching across both of those.

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is just this feeling people have

going there that it feels dynamic.

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It feels open.

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It feels moving.

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It feels creative.

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And it feels as though just culturally,

it's just so at odds with a lot of

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ed reform and just education today,

which is just so stuck in fixity.

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And so people are just wondering how the

heck These two worlds are going to have

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any interaction whatsoever or Is the

reality going to be that ai is evolving

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in such a way that it's going to be so

direct to parent And it's going to be so

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inexpensive That perhaps the ai will never

really fully integrate with our existing

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schools, you know as much as maybe

earlier technologies any thoughts here?

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Andy Rotherham: Yeah, oh my

God, that points up a few yeah,

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though on the energy thing.

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Yes.

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It, you know what it feels to me?

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Like it feels to me like new

schools, 15, 20 years ago, where

157

you felt like you didn't have your

passport, but you felt like you

158

were going to a different country.

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In terms of the way people were talking

about things in Silicon Valley felt like

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that in general, but you like new schools

was like the education arm of that.

161

And that's how ASU GSV definitely feels.

162

It's where the optimists are.

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There's, and everybody's there's

lots of people just doing interesting

164

stuff and sometimes just impromptu,

like the road trip nation guys rolled

165

up in their, one of their RVs and

they're giving out popsicles and it

166

was just, interesting group of people

standing around, talking about stuff

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and that kind of energy you don't get

at like lots of education conferences.

168

Jed Wallace: Do you have a feeling, Andy,

that the people there are so frustrated

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with the ossified public education

system that they're really thinking

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about how they make their applications

completely and utterly parallel to it?

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Just focus on private schools.

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Just focus on ESAs.

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Just focus on these other areas

because there's no progress

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to be made in this other area.

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Andy Rotherham: I don't know if it's that.

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I don't know if it's that.

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I think it's people want change and I

think you've got two pressures going on.

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You've got The desire for change

is going to go wherever they can.

179

And if they feel like that kind of change

is going to be in a different sector,

180

even like the community colleges say, or

different parts of K 12, like what you're

181

talking about, they're going to go there.

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And then you've obviously got, these

are, a lot of these are funded ventures.

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So you've got investment pressure

and there's pressure to, go where

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there's markets and so forth.

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One thing you said that was interesting,

you talked about which is obviously.

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Huge player, but there's I, one of

the things that just during our event

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that struck me is a few years ago

people thought there would be like an

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AI that would be like a thing, right?

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Right now there's like

multiple ones, right?

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Yeah.

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And so there's diff and that is

just to me it illustrative that.

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I just don't think we fully

understand the velocity here and the.

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Potential.

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So I think people are going

to go wherever they can.

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I do think you'll see some direct to

consumer kinds of applications for sure.

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I think in that a lot of ways like

that's going to mirror the old a lot.

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Some of the things we saw with Ed Tech.

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It's just did.

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This is different than older Ed Tech

because of the generative nature.

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One thing, though Yeah, I hear you on

the the sort of overhyped like that

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but the more interesting argument, this

is what Ben Riley's been was at our

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event was talking about is just simply

some of this is just at odds with what

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we know about learning science and

what we know about how people learn.

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And how is that going to play out?

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And that did not slow down some ed

tech applications that were fairly

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at odds with what we know about,

learning science and so forth.

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Give

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Jed Wallace: an example.

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What are you talking

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Andy Rotherham: about?

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Just how humans acquire information,

how we use information, how we relate

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to each other as humans, like what

effective instruction looks like.

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And Ben's, it's easy to put him like in

the overhyped bucket, but he's actually

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and this is just another sort of, there's

lots of people criticize this stuff,

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Larry Cuban, like famously and so forth.

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But it's a little different.

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He's he has some of those concerns,

but what he really is concerned about

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is how is this actually going to play

out in terms of what we know about how

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people learn, help how kids actually

operate in what they need in classrooms.

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And I do think that is

an interesting thing.

221

Conversation that it will be unfortunate

if it gets stuck in that groove of

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overhyped or not, which I mean, that

was the title of the thing I moderated,

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but it's a deeper it's a deeper concern.

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And I'm going to be looking at our,

in our, the corner of the world

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that you and I pay attention to

a lot, also charters how to what

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did charter start doing with this?

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You're seeing some AI tools or how

communicating with parents and so forth.

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What else are you seeing?

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That's in terms of.

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Using these things to build applications.

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Jed Wallace: I would say

that's too early to generalize.

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I think there are other things that

just come up that I find striking.

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That this conference happens nearly

concurrent with Height publishing his

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new book about Excess technology being a

problem for kids and then you have Vinod

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Khosla who did his Coffee chat and he

basically is saying hey All kids are going

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to have their own tutors, but not only

are they going to have their own tutors

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We're going to build in that they're

going to have their own psychologists

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Their own therapists as well.

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And so it almost feels ADE's position

is get even more technology into

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kids' hands, and it will ultimately

break through on the on the psychology

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side too, where I can imagine what

Jonathan Heit would say about that,

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Andy Rotherham: Yeah.

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I have a real concern about that actually.

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Yeah, I just, I talked

with someone recently.

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I had lunch with a woman recently,

and she was telling me about this

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like AI boyfriend she has and.

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If you think about like real boyfriends

having been one or a real pain in

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the ass and really difficult and

unmanageable really, and like she was

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saying, like this one has different

settings and you can set different

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things around boundaries and whatever.

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And so it's a very

customized, nice experience.

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And it got me thinking like, okay, you're

going to have that obviously for kids

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and you're already hearing about this.

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And so everyone's a kid.

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They have an imaginary friend, but

then you lose the imaginary friends.

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Imaginary friend fundamentally is

becomes boring and is not there.

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You can't do things and respond to you.

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So to this a little bit,

the heights concerns.

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What makes me think about this is like.

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What happens when the imaginary friend

is actually super engaging, easy to get

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along with, cool, always there, into

whatever you're into, and so forth,

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and you can see that for like kids, you

can see that for adults, replicas, this

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place where people are going and getting

these, imaginary partners and which

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aren't imaginary because it's like an AI.

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So it's, what are going to be the

compelling sort of, what do we present

266

as compelling alternatives to get

people to interact a lot with other

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humans, to go out and do things.

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And people can be like, Oh,

that's what's the big deal?

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Like you're, except we're

having that problem now, right?

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It's we can't get kids, we can't get

them off of, we can't get them off of

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screens now and as engaging and intense,

the dopamine stuff With social media

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this will all be like next level, right?

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And so what things are we going to

have on offer to compete with that?

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Jed Wallace: So I don't really know

i'm thinking about a dinner party.

275

I had just a couple weekends ago With

some of my wife's work colleagues.

276

They're all psychologists And they

are aware now of a number of different

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products using AI that are not

necessarily for improving therapy, but

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they are for managing the practice.

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If you're a psychologist, one

of the huge problems is doing

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your minutes, doing your notes.

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And as long as you're.

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As your client would be

comfortable with the A.

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I running.

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The psychologist is not going to

have to spend 20 to 30 minutes doing

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notes after their hour long session.

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That would just transform things right?

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But are the clients going to be

willing to allow technology in

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the room such that additional?

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Capacities there.

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And then also the things that it will

spit back to you as a therapist in

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terms of like, how much time did I spend

speaking this time versus last time?

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What level of emotional resonance,

was this person's voice, talking

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with at different moments, right?

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It's really great stuff, but you've

got client, you got client resistance.

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And so I can just imagine, the

parent resistance, that's going

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to be a part of this thing.

297

But the other thing too is, I hope you're

right, but do you think there will be?

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Cause

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Andy Rotherham: I'll look all like

I've written this all on up to this,

300

like parenting is like in your parent,

it's like a, it's like a, it's like a

301

constant stream of like small failures

that usually aren't super consequential.

302

And then some big wins along the way.

303

But one that like, Yep.

304

I was not as good on this technology.

305

It was hard to like constantly

be like policing it.

306

And it's so addictive.

307

So I hear you on parents.

308

I'm just not sure.

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Maybe this next generation of parents is

going to see what this has done to kids.

310

We'll be more cautious,

but it's frigging hard.

311

I think we're asking, we are

asking a lot of parents, there's a

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reason we regulate some substances.

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Cause we don't just ask parents

to keep their kids from alcohol,

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tobacco, stuff like that.

315

We have.

316

Policies to help with that.

317

Yeah.

318

Cause it's hard, right?

319

On the other hand you are

supposed to be a parent.

320

I do know parents who have done like

a much better job of it than I did.

321

So it's certainly it's certainly doable.

322

Yeah, it's not impossible.

323

Jed Wallace: And I would say that,

among psychologists right now, and it's

324

instructive, as it relates to education,

they're aware of all of these different

325

AI tools that are there, but they don't

trust anybody that's trying to peddle them

326

and they don't know which one's better.

327

And and they don't have enough time to go

in and really do the analysis themselves.

328

So it's just easier.

329

Do nothing.

330

Do nothing.

331

And so I feel as though one particular

advantage that the charter school world

332

could have is if they simply make the

choice, they are going to put enough

333

resource toward the analysis of the

different tools that are available

334

to us to start making some choices.

335

To start making some choices where I

can imagine big bureaucracies and then

336

pushing the decision through an entire

elaborate stakeholder engagement process

337

is going to slow it down so much.

338

I just hope that, what charter

schools do is get themselves into

339

a mode of not overthinking this.

340

Don't overanalyze, do enough

to know it's safe and, all that

341

kind of stuff, but then get it

operational within a couple of weeks.

342

And then pull the plug if it doesn't

work, but you're, and also you're just

343

going to have a team or a person at least,

depending on how big your organization

344

is, that's really on top of these things.

345

And it is allowing the

testing of innovation.

346

It's almost like you're not

generating the innovation now.

347

You're really trying to ride the

innovation, but which one do you do

348

and how do you integrate it into what

you're already doing within your school?

349

I almost feel like it's a core

competency that a lot of schools are

350

gonna have to get great at these days.

351

Thanks.

352

Andy Rotherham: Yeah, no, definitely.

353

And again, the velocity of it is just

so fast, you need people to keep up.

354

You can't expect people to.

355

To do that without a lot of support

and intent and intentionality.

356

I do think these for charters, these

communication devices with parents, the

357

ability to offer customized communication

with parents, coaching for kids.

358

Obviously tutoring is a big piece too.

359

Is going to be like a really resonant

thing and we'll help with engagement.

360

You can see, you can see lots of stuff

moving in, moving into the space there.

361

Jed Wallace: Let me, do you mind if

I ask you about your buck up article?

362

I feel like it's related to

this and I can like whatever I

363

like all of your Edgewalk posts.

364

I particularly liked that one.

365

And I also sense that, a

lot of people had read it.

366

I saw people, texting or tweeting

on it and that kind of stuff.

367

Can you just first share with the

audience, what you wrote generally in

368

case they haven't seen it yet, but then

also Just put a little color around

369

what motivated you're writing it.

370

And, what are you thinking now that

you've done it, what you published in

371

three weeks ago or something like that.

372

Andy Rotherham: Yeah.

373

Two weeks ago, it was right before ASU.

374

I put it on a Friday.

375

I will say it obviously hit a nerve.

376

An interesting thing I can tell

is I can look at on, on the sub

377

stack, you get Edgewonk either by

coming to the website or get, or a

378

newsletter, which is through sub stack.

379

And you can always tell when you've

hit a nerve, when the sub stack, the

380

open rates on the email, don't change

much, but the viewership, is noticeably.

381

And then I checked the tiger, the

stats, I use tiger tech and I checked

382

the stats and it was like, way out.

383

pretty good over a weekend, which

readership's usually a little

384

bit down on the weekends because

people read it, during the week.

385

And so it definitely hit a

nerve and you could see that.

386

Oh boy.

387

What, I've actually got a list.

388

I have a, I just have a spreadsheet

where I gather notes and gather string

389

on things I'm thinking about writing

and it helps me hold myself accountable.

390

To get through some stuff and all that.

391

And I'd wanted to write this one for

a while, cause I just didn't get it.

392

And the lead of it was a story that

like kept rattling around in my head,

393

which was just like, sometimes like

why there's sort of things that aren't

394

true and it, people keep saying them

and then there's things that aren't

395

true and are counterproductive to say.

396

And yet people keep saying

them and that's weird.

397

So what motivated me was just like, I'm

sick and tired of going to meetings,

398

listening to reformers bellyache, and

when they know it's not true and like the

399

more extreme examples of this are people

saying just like ridiculous things like

400

we've made no progress Since before the

civil rights act, we've made no progress

401

since Jim Crow and it's, you're just, and

actually I saw, I haven't had a chance

402

to read it yet, but I saw like a clip

from a podcast with a African American

403

woman who was like, furious about this.

404

Cause she was like, you

should be saying thank you.

405

Like the reason you're able to

like, go to these meetings and say

406

all this stuff is because of what

my generation did, older lady.

407

And she was really pissed.

408

And like all that has just, I've

been like, what is going on here?

409

And it's not true.

410

And there's plenty of evidence.

411

I didn't even get deeply

into a lot of the evidence.

412

I got into some of it, but gap, we've

got evidence on, the lowest performing

413

kids, the ones that everybody said

is the reason that they do this work.

414

We're making real gains and so forth.

415

And so I just get sick of it.

416

And it was like, and we're watching,

we're seeing this era of sort of

417

philanthropic contraction in the sector.

418

And some of that is funders

just getting sick of education.

419

Some is they're deciding climate

change or something else.

420

And like when that's happening, it

seems just completely insane to be

421

running around saying nothing works

and we haven't accomplished anything.

422

And again, I don't think

people actually believe it.

423

I think it's wearing this

hair shirt, but it's bullshit.

424

And they don't, cause these

are not stupid people.

425

These are many cases.

426

These people went to the.

427

in the world.

428

They don't believe this stuff.

429

But they're saying it cause

they're getting rewarded for it.

430

It's like this performative

thing you're supposed to say.

431

And I was just like enough,

like, why are we doing this?

432

Jed Wallace: I guess you're

you're more optimistic than me.

433

You're saying that people are being

duplicitous in the presentation.

434

I think that most of us are clueless.

435

We actually bought into this

idea that we haven't made this

436

kind of fundamental progress.

437

If we still believed it, then I think

we would see more people moving forward

438

with Moxie as they maybe, just try to

say the right thing at different times.

439

But what I really believe is that

the lack of confidence that we've

440

actually made significant progress

is leading to a dispiritedness that

441

is taking spring out of our step.

442

And it's the lack of spring and step

I worry about more than anything else.

443

Andy Rotherham: Yeah you

say that's a good push.

444

That's fair.

445

It may be in some cases people

just haven't really dialed into it.

446

And by the way, I did, I want to

make clear in the piece of the piece

447

isn't Hey, everything's gone great.

448

And if we just went back to 2004, 1996,

educational reform, things would be great.

449

That's not the point of it at all.

450

It's it, there's been plenty of

mistakes, plenty of hard one lessons.

451

Tim Daly has been doing a really good set

of deep dives on some of those lessons.

452

It's just that It is

not like, whoa, is us.

453

There hasn't been any progress has

been so slow, steady progress that

454

if you look at broad social policy

changes in the United States is not

455

like wildly out of line with that.

456

And there's been some noteworthy things,

including, charters that we've got.

457

I mentioned the jet, I got into this

when I first got to know you, like

458

people were like, I was literally

told by like the smart folks in

459

education that I was like naive.

460

One guy said I was naive to even be

that interested in KIPP because there'd

461

never be more than 15 KIPP schools.

462

Jed Wallace: Yeah.

463

There's

464

Andy Rotherham: 275 of them.

465

Now there's 7, 000 charters.

466

Nobody thought people thought

Clinton was just like, that was

467

the most ridiculous hyperbole.

468

When he said three, a goal of

469

probably be like mocked for that.

470

And like we blew past

471

So yeah, so I think it's around and I do

think so some of it may be cluelessness.

472

You may be more charitable.

473

I'd have to think more.

474

I just think a lot of people, I

think they know what they're saying.

475

The fashion right now is to

be like, nothing's worked.

476

It's all been really terrible and bad

and and you get rewarded for that.

477

You don't get where you actually

don't get rewarded that much for

478

saying everything's going well

because that cuts against the grain.

479

And people don't like that.

480

And they think you're oblivious

to the problems or whatever.

481

So people are getting rewarded for that.

482

And they're doing it.

483

I just wanted to like, hopefully

in some small way, just reset the

484

narrative to a more balanced place

that there's been like wins and losses,

485

but like a lot of wins and progress.

486

And by the way, social change in this

country doesn't happen overnight.

487

And if you were expecting that

you're in the wrong line of work.

488

Jed Wallace: Yeah.

489

I've been writing about, is Charter

History a bunch of ashes and Ramona

490

passing away, but also losing Don,

losing Linda, there's just become

491

this moment to look at at their

accomplishments, which were multi

492

decade in their undertaking which is.

493

What the charter school movement is, too.

494

And there are just very few reform

efforts that have a multi decade history.

495

Most of them fall apart.

496

They don't even make it that far.

497

And we do.

498

And we don't even, first of

all, we don't even stress that.

499

We don't even stress that, which

is bizarre, but then we just lose.

500

We lose track.

501

Ramona was so great at being able to

remind everybody about how appalling

502

public education was in the 80s and the

early 90s, and it's when you see that.

503

And remember how bad it was and then

to see, you know what it looks like now

504

after charter schools have grown to have

almost 50 percent of kids in charge.

505

And are there all sorts of

problems that are still there?

506

And is it not good enough and all that?

507

Yes, absolutely.

508

But if you look for everything going

back before that, decade after decade, No

509

progress or things getting actually worse.

510

So I've been signaling at Charterful,

I can't get it done because I just

511

cannot publish something that sucks on

something I think is super important.

512

And I feel like the Boston busing

thing is super, super important.

513

This is the 50th anniversary Of the

climactic moments of it when the

514

court cases were decided when Brett,

the Bradley case, Milligan Bradley

515

was decided in July of 2000 of 1974.

516

That's basically when the

Rehnquist court pulled back from.

517

Broad integration efforts across

multiple school districts and said,

518

No, Detroit, even though you're 97

percent black, you're going to do

519

all of your integration efforts only

within the District of Detroit, right?

520

It was a monumental decision

521

And, the Boston busing instance and,

conflict and tragedy was informing all

522

of those court cases as they happened.

523

And, if you look at Boston,

Boston is an abject, tragedy.

524

All the way to 1999.

525

They basically, the Garrity the judge,

526

There were 25 years of

busing, 25 years of busing.

527

1999, he lets it all drop, right?

528

Nothing had gotten better.

529

Nothing had gotten

better in Boston schools.

530

You go look at the press, you look at

Boston Herald, you look at Boston Globe.

531

It's just tragedy after tragedy.

532

What was made in 1999?

533

Roxbury Prep.

534

John King makes Roxbury Prep.

535

And within 15 years, the charter

schools of Boston were kicking butt.

536

They were the highest performing sector

of charter schools in the country, right?

537

And in the, in, in question two,

538

said, we're not going to allow

charter schools to grow anymore.

539

That fall, there was a larger number

of applicants to charter schools in

540

Boston than there have ever been before.

541

And I think our world

doesn't understand this.

542

We don't know this.

543

Certainly our newcomers don't know it.

544

And when those of us that have a

sense of hope, that are, that remain

545

perpetually bucked up forget that our

world doesn't understand these things.

546

It just speaks to, we got to go

back and tell the story again.

547

So people retain the sense of

optimism that if we keep going,

548

something profound will happen.

549

Andy Rotherham: Yeah.

550

I love that.

551

Yeah, that's Yeah, when I first got like

very early in my career, my boss's boss

552

had been an assistant superintendent up in

Boston during that in the early seventies.

553

And he told me about literally

redlining parents would come up on

554

the boards on these maps and they

would write with red magic markers.

555

And I remember thinking, so this is like

the nineties thinking, okay, like we've

556

at least like we've made, like I've

always been like fundamentally optimistic.

557

Okay.

558

We've made like blank.

559

That at least now the boundary

disputes are like more subtle because

560

people are scared to be like that

openly racist, which it doesn't

561

mean we've solved the problem.

562

And this is the thing.

563

As soon as you say like anything

about progress, you're like we

564

haven't solved the problem, right?

565

We haven't solved the problem,

but we have made progress.

566

we're moving in a positive direction.

567

And you just have to keep applying that

sort of sustained pressure, which is

568

why, and you talk about, which is why

like when the my, like that article,

569

like that's, was basically my point.

570

Like we've got to keep applying pressure.

571

You can't.

572

You can't let up.

573

That's how change happens.

574

And it's too easy to, I'd

add to your list of people.

575

I totally agree with your history, but

I'd also add like Linda Brown passing

576

recently, another person who just did

and the thing that like Linda, Don Ramona

577

I wrote a piece about Don that also,

I think people are a little hungry,

578

there's an appetite for this, the piece

about Don performed really well too.

579

And I think it was basically

just about Don was not fearless.

580

Or I guess reckless would be better.

581

He knew the risks.

582

He wasn't like he, but he did it anyway.

583

He was courageous.

584

He had courage.

585

He was brave is what he, I remember

when I first met Don in the nineties,

586

I was like, this guy's brave.

587

He's walking away from a

very comfortable career path.

588

All of that to do this other thing

with launching charters and I

589

think the, to your point on telling

stories, I think also because you need

590

people who are willing to be brave.

591

And if everybody thinks there's

no, you can't be brave, you'll

592

be punished for it or whatever,

then no, one's going to do it.

593

It's becomes a really unvirtuous cycle.

594

And so we need to tell these stories.

595

Linda Brown was brave.

596

Ramona was brave.

597

Don was brave.

598

Jed Wallace: Yeah, and I put a

lot of this on the leadership.

599

I don't know if it's

leadership within schools.

600

I really put it on the

leadership coming from advocacy.

601

I think those people have

got to be crisp on it.

602

And I will say I was a bonehead, at

during my 10 years at CCSA, I wasn't

603

crisp enough on this, or I didn't

get crisp enough until probably

604

the last two and a half years.

605

And and then I was getting a little

bit better, but I don't think

606

we understand when we don't have

charter school advocates that can

607

tell these stories this quickly.

608

Look at Kansas city, look at Kansas city.

609

Kansas city is every bit as bad as Boston.

610

Frickin horrible ending the amount of

money that they spent in Kansas City.

611

I'm sure you know that history.

612

There's nothing that's ever been done

in terms of volume of dollars per kid.

613

And it achieved nothing.

614

And, but now since then.

615

Charter schools that came

along and we've grown to 50%.

616

And if you look at, the credo studies

for the Kansas City Charter schools,

617

they're, I, they're nailing it.

618

Nailing it, but we won't even say it.

619

And another thing that just

drives me crazy is we have nothing

620

about what the next chapter is.

621

Okay?

622

We're at 50%.

623

Woo-hoo.

624

It's great.

625

We've got an awesome story to tell.

626

But what is the next chapter?

627

People, let's go.

628

And when we can't either tell

the history effectively going.

629

backwards or saying how continued

work is going to get us to

630

something that will long endure.

631

That's where we find people

needing to be bucked up.

632

And I put a lot of that on

the advocacy leadership.

633

Andy Rotherham: Yeah, I know

your point of Christmas.

634

I do.

635

I feel like we've, part of it is

because we got a lot of walks.

636

I don't think there's, there are

not as enough hacks in the section.

637

What I mean by that, like Bruce Reed wrote

a great piece this years ago now with the

638

Washington monthly that was about like

hacks need wonks and walks need hacks.

639

And it's less stay in your

lane than you need both.

640

And then he wrote about the

difference between and walks.

641

And Bruce is the consummate wonk.

642

And We haven't done, I think in this

sector, a fantastic job of the wonks

643

do a lot of the here's how we should

talk about this stuff, but we talk

644

about it in certain ways rather than

the hacks can teach you how to be

645

crisp and how to sell it and so forth.

646

I think that's a place we haven't

necessarily done are not just charters,

647

but had reform generally done our politics

super 1 reason the politics haven't

648

been as sustainable as they might.

649

One thing before we move off of this,

I can't with Boston and this is a

650

little bit personal to me because

these are schools that like help

651

my family get a rung on the ladder.

652

It's hard to miss.

653

Also the response.

654

This goes back to this idea of what's

politically fashionable and so forth.

655

Like Boston.

656

Now these selective.

657

So some of the schools in Boston

were just fantastic public schools.

658

So Latin girls, Latin, these schools,

girls, I doesn't, it doesn't really

659

even exist anymore in the same way.

660

Like the Response to frustration about

lack of whether we're making enough

661

progress and pressure has been to erode

the things that made these schools iconic

662

the same fights going on in New York.

663

And elsewhere, obviously, out your

way in San Francisco, they have

664

this fight, and I think it's really.

665

It's illustrative, because it's such a

counterproductive way to respond, which

666

is to try to then weaken, tear down,

go low as common denominator, rather

667

than figure out how do we like expand

excellence, expand access to excellence.

668

And it's really the antithesis of

the people we just talked about

669

and others in terms of their.

670

Their belief in what's possible for all

kids and that you can have much higher

671

expectations for kids than we have now.

672

And these systems are responding by

really doing the opposite, which if

673

you're a public school person like

you are, and I am like, it's just

674

very dispiriting to watch that.

675

Jed Wallace: Yeah, I'm not going to give

you're not, I don't think you're going to

676

budge me on selective admissions, Andy.

677

I just, this is my

678

Andy Rotherham: subtle effort to.

679

I was trying to get your, I was

trying to get your slipstream,

680

Jed Wallace: But I totally agree

with you that we keep things.

681

We got to keep aspiring

toward greater academic rigor.

682

And I just do not believe that

greater academic rigor and selective

683

admissions are necessarily inseparable.

684

And if you look, I don't know if you saw

fascinating a story down in Gainesville.

685

There's a school that's connected a

public school traditional public that's

686

operated by the university of Florida

or it's operated on the university of

687

Florida campus, Penny Schwinn, who was

the secretary of education in Tennessee.

688

And she's an old charter folks.

689

She started schools here in Sacramento

and we helped get her elected to

690

Sacramento County office of education.

691

She's now working for the university

of Florida and her charge is that

692

their school is ranked number 30.

693

38 in the state and

that's not good enough.

694

University of Florida

insists that they be top 10.

695

So what does Penny propose?

696

Let's change to selective admissions.

697

That's the way they're going to

get themselves to the top 10.

698

Then in the article that talked about

this, and there were, the article was

699

basically about all the parents in

Gainesville that were upset about this.

700

They did not want this to happen.

701

It talked about the other 37

schools that are above the

702

university of Florida school.

703

35 of them are selected admission

schools and two are in Coral Gables.

704

It's just,

705

Andy Rotherham: I look at this less.

706

I'm okay with some degrees and

you and I disagree on this.

707

I know some degree of customization.

708

And you can have different kinds

of schools and public schools

709

that have requirements around

arts and things like that.

710

I think I want to see a broad base of

things under that public education banner.

711

I think that's how you make public

education durable and sustainable.

712

But you got it to your point.

713

You got to talk about this accurately

and you got to make clear these

714

schools are not and an open enrollment.

715

School that's hitting the cover

off the ball is not the same as

716

a selective admission school that

might be getting the same results.

717

And this is sort of me.

718

I see.

719

This is like an information communication

navigation challenge, not a reason not

720

to have sort of a plethora of options.

721

But you're right.

722

We got to talk about this stuff.

723

This honestly, this was my.

724

Frustration with years ago, the way

that Newsweek was ranking schools.

725

Yeah, they were a bank.

726

A lot of traction in Florida

were a lot of the top schools.

727

And you're like, these are not overall

like great schools, high dropout

728

rates, big achievement gaps, but they

do a really good job with a small

729

set of kids, which doesn't mean like

they should stop doing a good job.

730

That set of kids, what means

let's talk about this honestly.

731

And, this is what happens in DC,

like the charts in DC are constantly.

732

compared to the selective

admissions public schools in D.

733

C.

734

And that's not a fair comparison either.

735

Yeah,

736

Jed Wallace: but I, this is one where

because we're not crisp on what we

737

believe constitutes a great public

school, I, the, I think the favorite

738

post that I've written at CharterFolk

over four years was about my dad's

739

definition of a great public school.

740

The eight public, eight words that define

a great public school that positively

741

affects the rate at which children learn.

742

And there's no reason why we can't.

743

Have the data systems that would be able

to see whether or not schools accelerate

744

the rate at which And then if we can

get a point of view that's in fact what

745

it is, then we can start just you know

taking a you know Dismantling a system

746

that just says hey if you're good at

recruiting already high performing Kids,

747

you know that doesn't necessarily make you

a great public school But because we're

748

not crisp because we're not crisp we end

up dragged down into the mire of things.

749

Andy Rotherham: Okay, so question

for you Are we like the charters

750

face an existential crisis?

751

You and I have talked about my, my

concern that when the music stops,

752

they don't necessarily have a place.

753

Do charters face, he

got all this pressure.

754

Some of them have.

755

Felt pressured to adopt

practices, not dissimilar from

756

traditional public schools.

757

You've got the ESAs and a lot

of political energy heading

758

in that direction, Democrats.

759

And we can talk about some

of the political things

760

with parents and so forth.

761

Don't necessarily aren't embracing them.

762

So you got Republicans going one

way, Democrats going another.

763

The lines are getting blurry.

764

Charters are giving up some

of the things that kind of

765

traditionally gave them their edge.

766

Do you think on this like being crisp,

which is a branding kind of thing, do you

767

think there's like an existential crisis

where like in 15 years, like charters

768

won't have a distinct if changes aren't

made and how we talk about and do advocacy

769

and so forth, the charters won't have a

distinct brand or place on the landscape.

770

Jed Wallace: I generally don't

worry about it, but it's the

771

thing I worry the most about.

772

I ultimately think we're going to be

successful, but it is possible that

773

people could refuse to arm the Ukrainians.

774

And if you don't arm the Ukrainians,

they're going to fricking lose.

775

They're gonna freaking lose.

776

It all comes down to whether Ukraine

folk are willing to keep doing it.

777

And I think Ukraine folk are willing

to keep doing it as long as they

778

got, the means by which to keep

trying to to defeat the Russians.

779

And for our stuff, this is where, it

relates to your article about bucking up.

780

I feel like the re, the reason that

you and I intuitively feel like

781

our world needs to be bucked up is

because the challenges are deepest.

782

In our bluest environments And at least

for charter schools, but I think a lot

783

of ed reform, too That's where We went

to blue context because those were

784

the ones that were the most broken and

those were the ones where the highest

785

needs kids Were and all of that and

it's the place where it's just so

786

Just it's so dysfunctional right now.

787

And so given that The vast majority of

people who are in ed reform, the vast

788

majority of them are Dems themselves, but

also they're stuck in these democratic

789

contexts that are just dysfunctional.

790

Their opinions then frame the

national chatter within the ed world.

791

And and a part of this is that Republican,

I'm not Republican, our funders are

792

saying, forget the blue context.

793

Do not beat your head against walls.

794

Go to places where you can make progress.

795

And so that's the blue.

796

Our CMOs and charter school operators

in urban context feel abandoned.

797

They feel abandoned.

798

And I don't think that's wise.

799

I don't think it's wise because

ultimately, I think things are going

800

to implode in those blue context.

801

And things are gonna open up again,

and we want those people ready to

802

pounce as soon as things do open.

803

And look at Philadelphia

just this last week.

804

It looks like the school board's

gonna change there, right?

805

But the other part of it, too, is

these people really matter to us.

806

They really matter to us.

807

They have to feel like

they're being supported.

808

They have to feel like

they're being honored.

809

And and they will rub off on

all sorts of other people, too.

810

So my sense, Andy, is as long as charter

folk have spring in step, As long

811

as we keep going forward with moxie.

812

I don't have any worry about things

I think we can keep up in florida.

813

I think we can keep up in arizona I think

we can keep up in arkansas, and we're the

814

only thing going in blue context but the

question is are we going to keep going?

815

Are we going to keep

applying for charters?

816

Are we going to keep pushing, for the

reforms that we need at school district

817

levels and that kind of stuff and

without that feeling of wind at the blues

818

backs You know That does make me worry.

819

Andy Rotherham: All right.

820

Riddle me this then.

821

Okay.

822

So if this is counterintuitive and,

I've talked about people have trouble

823

getting their heads around it.

824

One of Biden's biggest problems right

now is politically is erosion of

825

support among Black and Hispanic voters.

826

And there was a new poll, the YouGov poll

was written up in The Economist recently.

827

We can put the article in the

show notes and access the poll.

828

And basically it showed one of the

things that's highly predictive

829

of being a Biden to Trump voters.

830

So you voted for Biden in 2020 and

say, you're going to vote for Trump.

831

And that's a big deal because the

election is so tight that voters who

832

switch are especially valuable rather

than just like low propensity and

833

other kinds of voters, just because

Trump has a, he has a ceiling.

834

Both candidates are

struggling in their own way.

835

And Trump has a seat.

836

So those voters, they really,

those voters really matter.

837

Was black and Hispanic

parents, people with kids.

838

And those people said they were, some

of that was economic anxiety for sure.

839

Inflation, these people,

they were they did not list

840

education as their top concern.

841

They listed They listed economic things,

but they are parents with kids and

842

that, that stood out in the cross tabs.

843

And there's only a fraction of

them moving from Trump to Biden.

844

So like I think 3 percent sound like that.

845

We can check that, but like the red,

like 10, 11 percent moving the other way.

846

And it seems strange.

847

So that's happening at the same time.

848

The Biden administration's cutting support

for For the chart for the federal charter

849

school program, which is at once, go

through the hill and everything, but it's

850

symbolically, you don't have to do that.

851

They're really not much of a friend

of charters and the Democrats

852

generally don't have much of it.

853

And it seems as you and I think

we've talked about a little

854

bit before, education issues.

855

These, do seem like it's a piece.

856

There's a set of things.

857

These are also

disproportionately conservative,

858

Jed Wallace: right?

859

Andy Rotherham: Going to be conservative

african americans, conservative

860

hispanics who Biden is make is

losing and trump is making real

861

inroads against now in the polling.

862

So riddle me like why Hey, Why is

it such a struggle to get Democrats

863

to put forward some kind of

agenda here that's not repellent?

864

Jed Wallace: Let me first

underscore your your point with

865

some additional data from Texas.

866

Because I think that what Starling, and

it was fun for us to be there at Charter

867

School Growth Fund, and there she was

in the audience, and I don't know, I

868

was fawning over her left and right.

869

What is going on?

870

We can learn so much.

871

from the advocacy that the Texas Charter

School Association is doing right now.

872

And one of the things that

she's, you, when you're Texas,

873

you, it's just a huge state.

874

You could waste all of your money, on,

on who knows what political activity.

875

And Starley's just been like, look,

let's focus on charter school parents.

876

And we think we can turn more of

them out, and we think we can flip

877

more of them, to charter support

than than if we tried to spend the

878

same dollar on just any old voter.

879

And she's got really stunning numbers.

880

And numbers large enough to have

been the difference maker in several

881

legislative races, and I think even

a couple of their state board races.

882

And what they really found was that

these Dems, who would otherwise have

883

voted Dem, when you tell them, that

their dam is opposed to charter schools

884

and the Republican is supporter.

885

They have a significant number.

886

I don't know the exact numbers here,

but it's a significant number are

887

willing to vote for the dam right now.

888

So that just speaks to the level

of danger that I think Dems

889

have to stay in that space.

890

And I wish I could say they were getting

the message, but, you saw those posts

891

that I wrote about the hearings in

Washington on charter schools where

892

it was a very clear strategy, right?

893

The Republicans just wanted those Dems

on that committee, and I got to be more

894

precise in my language because when I say.

895

All the Dems in Congress, that's wrong.

896

No, it's the subset of Dems within

Congress that get appointed to those

897

committees, which is a function of,

the unions telling the leadership

898

who to put on those committees.

899

The voters don't know that.

900

And all they do is they

see that message come out.

901

And I don't know if you saw, if you read

the post that I wrote, that some of the

902

most ridiculous things that they said.

903

Andy Rotherham: And look,

that, that ramps up or down,

904

depending on it's hard to miss.

905

It's the Democrats with Clinton and

with Obama were like good on this stuff.

906

It tamped down some of the craziness

and like that presidential bully

907

pulpit, you get you get some

cover, you can shape the narrative.

908

You get some people will just be quiet.

909

Cause they don't want to get in your way.

910

They want to be good.

911

They want to be good foot

soldiers for the party.

912

All those things add up.

913

And so it's just it's just

inexplicable to me right now.

914

That the Dems aren't even making nominal

moves to try to use education to head

915

this off, especially because the other

guy, it's, is not, Mitt Romney, or George

916

Bush or whatever it's Donald Trump,

who I think like most people agree is

917

like a real problem on multiple levels.

918

Again, we're in election season

and the people who hate charters

919

are the teachers unions and white.

920

Progressives and they're not the

votes Biden has to worry about.

921

Like the votes he has to worry

about are the votes in the middle

922

and the votes that he's eroding.

923

And so it's just, again, like

whatever the explanation is just

924

politically in an election, you

should be doing everything you can.

925

To address whatever your

political deficiencies are.

926

And yeah, I just don't don't get it.

927

And again, this election,

actually, everyone always says,

928

yeah, every election is the most

important lecture of your life.

929

But this was actually important

considering the backdrop.

930

And yeah, I don't know.

931

I don't it's, I hear you and

I hear the frustration and I

932

don't that I it is inexplicable.

933

Jed Wallace: Listen, I

know we're, near time here.

934

I'm realizing that I'd like to just

go back and feather in one additional

935

piece on this prior conversation about

the blues and keeping, ed Reformers

936

and charters, spring in our step.

937

I just.

938

I know that many of our pros, our

advocacy pros, our comms pros tell

939

us not to say anything negative

about traditional public schools.

940

And I think that is ultimately a box that

Contributes to a lot of the problems that

941

you and I have been talking about here.

942

Why do we need to be bucked up?

943

I mean if there's not any real

big problem Why are we going to

944

run into anything anyway, right?

945

And if there's not really been any big

problem then what's been the magnitude

946

of the charter school's accomplishment

and if there's not any real continued

947

problem why do we even bother going on?

948

And I just feel like this is one of

the most I understand that ridiculous

949

toxicity and you put, you brought

that up when we were in Arizona,

950

there are some people that want to

fight just for the sake of fighting.

951

And that is totally, and they

fight for unfair reasons.

952

But if we are Chris, I come back to

this word again and again about what

953

is fair game, what is fair game and

what is something that we can do.

954

And I'm just starting to feel too.

955

Like we need different policy

proposals, ones that I've

956

never talked about before too.

957

I'm pushing myself to get new stuff.

958

We need something that rewards

those schools that are getting

959

us where we want to go.

960

And, I think there have been a

few places, Ohio tries to give

961

like a funding increment to the

charters that get good test scores.

962

But good test scores is not even

what we're talking about now.

963

What we want are schools

that parents really want.

964

That parents really want that low

income kids would be willing to get

965

on a bus or drive, across a district

line to attend the suburban school.

966

We want the suburban school to take them.

967

What do we right now?

968

What we do is we tend to penalize

that which is successful.

969

That which is successful has money

sucked away from it generally to

970

go into these really small, un,

unsustainable schools and more money

971

ends up going to the schools that

people don't want than the ones we do.

972

And I just feel like it's incumbent upon

us because to come up with new ways.

973

To reward that which we want to see

in the future and our advocacy is just

974

not imaginative along these lines.

975

Andy Rotherham: Yeah,

no I generally agree.

976

Yeah, the getting what do you do

helping parents move across these lines?

977

How do you reward?

978

I think there's a lot of things we could

do there for your more creative and

979

policy than we have been here again.

980

You're not going to you're not

going to see that the current

981

administration was all kinds of

things you could see about helping

982

good ideas, travel, helping rewarding

success giving resources to expand.

983

And that's what we used to.

984

We used to do more of that

kind of that kind of energy.

985

I do think, You know the kind of person

you can find them on Twitter who like

986

if they're a chart, if they're like

a choice person, every time something

987

happens in public schools, they're

like, they're treating it around.

988

And likewise, if they're they

consider themselves a public school

989

person or a charter critic, anytime

something happens in a charter school.

990

And these are in fact, things that happen

in both sectors, you get there's incidents

991

of fraud or graft or whatever, or adults

do inappropriate things, whatever it is.

992

Yeah.

993

Those people are obnoxious.

994

And I feel like the thing we should

talk honestly about with both sectors

995

is what's the macro performance picture.

996

I think there's places charters

are still falling short and

997

we should talk about that.

998

This place is a traditional

public schools are falling short.

999

And then there's issues like you,

you told the story of Boston earlier.

00:48:22,604 --> 00:48:27,164

And I feel like on both, one thing you

find on both sides is I wrote an article

00:48:27,164 --> 00:48:31,804

years ago called like achievement realists

versus public relationists on both sides.

00:48:31,804 --> 00:48:35,694

You find these people who like, they

think the path that this is basically

00:48:35,694 --> 00:48:39,094

a public relations problem and a

public relations war to fight out.

00:48:39,474 --> 00:48:41,834

And then you've got the people

and I'm in this camp who are like

00:48:41,844 --> 00:48:44,454

the achievement realists are like,

people are going to figure it out.

00:48:44,624 --> 00:48:45,954

Sooner or later anyway.

00:48:45,964 --> 00:48:48,084

And so you might as well just be

straightforward about the data,

00:48:48,084 --> 00:48:51,534

talk about things, honestly, drive

towards improvement and so forth.

00:48:51,544 --> 00:48:53,104

That's why I guess I'm

an accountability guy.

00:48:53,154 --> 00:48:54,134

I want good reporting.

00:48:54,374 --> 00:48:54,934

I want good.

00:48:54,964 --> 00:48:56,944

I want good data on all schools.

00:48:57,294 --> 00:48:59,614

And I feel like that's the divide.

00:48:59,624 --> 00:49:01,964

And we have too many people on both sides.

00:49:01,964 --> 00:49:04,844

We're still in this public

relationist kind of posture where

00:49:04,844 --> 00:49:08,504

this is just, it's a PR war to be

won one way or the other or lost.

00:49:09,109 --> 00:49:11,189

One way or the other, rather

than these are just like

00:49:11,199 --> 00:49:13,529

substantive problems to solve.

00:49:13,869 --> 00:49:16,209

And again, going back to the

article, which we have done a

00:49:16,209 --> 00:49:17,609

decent job solving some of them.

00:49:17,609 --> 00:49:19,309

There's a lot of lessons

and learning there.

00:49:19,359 --> 00:49:21,259

But it's getting obscured

by all this other stuff.

00:49:21,869 --> 00:49:23,919

We've probably gone, we've

probably gone long enough.

00:49:23,919 --> 00:49:24,179

And,

00:49:24,249 --> 00:49:25,929

Jed Wallace: If you have a

link to that one, send it and

00:49:25,929 --> 00:49:27,079

we'll get it in the notes.

00:49:27,339 --> 00:49:32,069

That sounds like a really interesting one

and Hey, it's great to have caught up.

00:49:32,669 --> 00:49:34,319

It's great to see you as well.

00:49:34,319 --> 00:49:34,699

I hope,

00:49:34,729 --> 00:49:36,179

Andy Rotherham: Again, soon

we've got some upcoming, we've

00:49:36,179 --> 00:49:37,829

got some exciting guests coming.

00:49:37,829 --> 00:49:40,449

So we will I've been

traveling a lot as well.

00:49:40,449 --> 00:49:43,969

And so we will get back in a more

regular cadence regular cadence soon.

00:49:44,469 --> 00:49:45,179

Looking forward to it.

00:49:45,369 --> 00:49:46,249

Hey, great to see you, Jed.

00:49:46,249 --> 00:49:46,529

Bye bye.

00:49:47,109 --> 00:49:47,419

Okay.

00:49:47,509 --> 00:49:47,769

Bye.