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Professionalizing Risk Management | Dr David Rubens
Episode 52nd February 2022 • The Circuit Magazine Podcast • BBA Corporate Ltd
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If risk management underpins everything we do in the security industry, why is the delivery of high level training so underserved? And why are the requisite skills not valued more by all practitioners?

We're joined by Dr David Rubens, founder and executive director of the ISRM (Institute of Strategic Risk Management), as well as MD and CEO of Deltar Training Solutions. 

On today’s episode, we’re going to explore what the the professionalization of risk management means to protective services and why it’s relevant. We’ll also be asking…

  • Is there's a shortage of risk management skills within the industry and why?
  • Why are there not more compelling arguments for acquiring recognised risk management qualifications earlier in a career? 
  • For operators wondering where to spend their CPD budget? Is risk management something that is going to have immediate returns or do the rewards come later into your career?
  • Should RM Training be incorporated into the basic training modules of executive and close protection? 
  • What is the ISRM doing to address the skills shortage and plug the gaps?

Today's episode is very much for anyone looking for longevity in the industry. If you value professionalisation and are prepared to invest in yourself, this one's for you. And as David reminds us...

“Qualifications don't get you a job. But not having qualifications will stop you getting a job when you get to a certain level.”

More about David:

Dr. David Rubens DSyRM, CSyP, FSyI is a leading authority on the strategic management of complex operations in crisis environments. He gained his MSc in Security & Risk Management from Leicester University in 2006, and was subsequently a Visiting Lecturer and Dissertation Supervisor on their Terrorism, Security and Policing MSc programme (2006-12), and a Visiting Lecturer on the Strategic Leadership Programme at the UK Defence Academy (2010-11).

David has worked with academic institutions including John Jay University (New York) and Stellenbosch University (South Africa), and has recently worked with the Arab Urban Development Institute (AUDI) on developing a multi-stage programme that can support regional implementation of the Sendai Framework. David has also consulted on major national capability development programmes in West and East Africa, Middle East and SE Asia.



More about the Circuit:

The Circuit Magazine is written and produced by volunteers, most of who are operationally active, working full time in the security industry. The magazine is a product of their combined passion and desire to give something back to the industry. By subscribing to the magazine you are helping to keep it going into the future. Find out more >

If you liked this podcast, we have an accompanying weekly newsletter called 'On the Circuit' where we take a deeper dive into the wider industry. Opt in here >

The Circuit team is:

  • Elijah Shaw
  • Jon Moss
  • Shaun West
  • Phelim Rowe

Connect with Us: 

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Dr David Rubens: it's how you've visualized the world. It's how you conceptualize. What is happening around you? The language you use, the terminology you use, the way you structure, what you're doing. The 


Phelim: professionalization of risk management and its applicability to you, the CPO out there, I'm here with Jon Moss. And today we are very fortunate. We are going to be speaking with the one and only Dr. David Rubens, founder of the Institute for strategic risk management. And of course his own consultancy massive name in the industry. 

What an exciting episode we're going to have today, 



Yeah, absolutely. 

David is a big supporter of what we're doing here at the circuit. And likewise, we've had a very close working relationship with David and ISRM and Deltar training for a number of years. And it's no surprise to us. 

What a great speaker he is, what a great thought leader on the subject of risk management and the industry in general. So the hardest thing about having a guest like David is knowing where to start 



indeed. That professionalization piece, I think will capture a lot of people's imaginations because it's a nice positive image out there. 

And, if I am on the ground level, if I am new in my career and I'm thinking, where do I go? Or the professionalization of my own craft is going to be in my mind. And and, doing some sort of risk management as a profession, surely that's quite a pull factor, isn't it? 


Jon: Yeah, absolutely. 

When you think. It would be maybe more obvious or more stated within the protectors career path. And I think that's something we'll get into today, it makes me reflect on my own career. And actually the first time that I undertook formal risk management training was purely because I was operating in a capacity internationally where overnight the rules changed and the title that I was operating under changed to risk manager the next day. 

And I went, hang on a minute. I'm not I'm not a risk manager or at least I didn't consider myself to be one simply because I hadn't done the formal training. So put myself on an available course, got trained up. And the first thing I realized was actually, the tools of risk management can be utilized from day. One of being in this industry, no matter which budge you are and what level you are. 


Phelim: And of course those tools help you see yourself in the bigger picture don't they. And when you start to see yourself as part of the whole, then you know, your day gets smoother. 

Your day gets easier. You see why you're developing X, Y, and Z for the entire project. I think this is fantastic. And of course it would be remiss of me not to mention, the great work of the som we have had Joe Saunders from the. Australian chapter we've of course had either to it, many hats, including the Israeli chapter, , but I've had Dr. 
Gav Snyder as well as Ken Smith on a number of different events. I mentioned them because I love this cross-pollination I want to do a shout out to them because they've shown us a lot of love. And I think that's one of David Rubens, his themes, collaboration, and cross-pollination, which is why this partnership has been so great. 

Just just a snapshot, if you will John or off of the BBA and ISRM partnership what are we, what have we been doing together and what should our membership and listenership, really 


Jon: It all goes back and builds upon that gap between a protector coming into the industry and the length of time before we hit. 

They even put themselves on some formal risk management training or realize that they have a skill shortage in that area. And so our relationship with ISR M was purely to bring a trusted source to our members, to our readers and our list. 

A lot sooner in that career development.


Phelim: that makes absolute sense. And so that keeps us relevant that keeps out listeners and members relevant, which is why this is such an exciting episode to have. Without further ado, let's talk to Dr. David Rubens and look at the professionalization of risk management 


Intro: and now let's meet one of the contributors to the circuit magazine. 


Phelim: professionalizing risk management today, we're here with the one and only Dr. David Rubens founder and executive director of the ISRM Institute of strategic risk management, as well as MD and CEO of Deltar training solutions. What a pleasure to have you on Jon and myself? We are excited to have you, how are you doing? 


Dr David Rubens: I'm doing very well. Thank you. I'm I can't believe we're in February, but besides that everything is going very well. Thank you. 


Phelim: It is zooming past isn't it's a it's an action packed year. And in fact, many people are, coming good on their commitment to further development and training in this year 2022, which is a very good segue into sort of asking our three quick fire questions. 

We're interested in the professionalization of risk management. And number one, what is your biggest gripe with the industry as it stands? Or what problem do you think we need to solve or professionalize? 


Dr David Rubens: I think the biggest problem is that we, as an industry, as a sector, don't recognize or respect our own professionalization. 

ring committee, I think about:

We've had a revolutionary change in the, now you have master's degrees, you have, charter security professionals. You have a whole range of higher end professional development programs at the low level. We've had absolutely no progress whatsoever the last twenty-five years. 


Phelim: Okay. No, that's a crucial, that's a crucial point. 

But on a more happy note, what about you? Where does your passion for this actually come from? Why are you leading the way in so many chapters around the world for the IRM? Where does your passion for this come from 


Dr David Rubens: the officers? I don't know, but it's a word that people have always used about me from the very first beginning. 

program. Trainer list back in:

And I've been very lucky. I spent many parts of my life with fantastic teachers, people who I respect until today. I, for some reason, I have no idea why I've been very lucky that I've gone through the professionalization from my perspective, having done door supervisor courses in close protection courses, then a consultancy, then my masters, then a doctorate. 

Would you believe? So over the last 25 years, I don't think I've ever, I've never been on the first way, but I've always been on the second way. There was other people who've done stuff before me, but I. ridden the second wave, for example, the second wave of close protection training programs, the second wave of getting your master's program. 

Besides that Phelim why me? I have no idea. 


Phelim: That's a that's very humble. A very good explanation. I think what about then those out there who are uninitiated in risk management and particularly I'm thinking, what you referred to as not the executive directors, but the the sort of more ground level of the industry. 

What should those more uninitiated colleagues better understand about risk management as a discipline? 


Dr David Rubens: It is a discipline it should be done like any other discipline. You have a program and you stick to it. It takes time. Things on LinkedIn. People say how can I get a job? 

People won't take me on. And the truth is you've got to hang around, you've got to stick around. You've got to serve your time. The advice I always give to people is hang around with good people. If you want to if you want to do good stuff, hang around with good people. That's probably one of the best things you can do. 

The other thing is do training, get qualifications and people say what could that potentially can teach a lot? Qualifications, don't get your job, but not having qualifications stops you getting a job when you get to a certain level. And it's just part of your professional development. 

If you're getting older and getting some more experience, getting those letters after your name or doing those programs brings you benefit. And so I would say in the truth is invest in yourself, good training and professional qualifications is never a waste. And it doesn't just give you skills. 

It gives you the opportunity for a different future. You're creating a new possible, a life possibility for yourself, which you will not have if you don't have those qualifications. Then the thing about it is that as you go through your career, you will find that the people you're going to either work with or for they will have qualifications. 

So if they do have qualifications, they're much more likely to take people on who also have qualifications. Then if you don't have qualifications, you should see it as a part of the selection. It just allows you to say, yes, I've done that. I'm part of that group, which do have it, rather than that group, which don't have it. 

And when you do have it, Then you've passed that almost barrier to entry. And I think it's it's one of those two things, A: hang around really good people and B: investing in yourself will build a future for yourself. 


Jon: Fantastic. So much that I want to sink my teeth into that, David, but I think I'll start with R invest in yourself because, I would say that's quite a big motto of what we do, both with the associations and here on the circuit podcast, we're always trying to bring new perspectives to our listeners. 

And obviously having the benefits of experts like yourself is a great opportunity to do that. So I want to dive into this and I guess I just want to jump straight in and ask you, do you think there's a shortage of risk management skills within the industry at large. 


Dr David Rubens: I think there's a shortage of risk management skills within the world at large. 

You look at the way that the UK government has handled. COVID, there's a lack of risk management skills there, which has an incredible impact. You look at a whole load of other issues and there's a failure of risk management. And absolutely there is a lack of risk management skills within this sector, which is part of the overarching lack of again, professionalization and respect for professionalism. 

I think it is changing. We mentioned offline before to people who've you've had on your podcast previously, which is Ivor Terret. And Dr. Gav Shnieder both of them. I've known for many years, and I consider them as good friends. But above that, I consider most as, as world-leading excellent professionals. 

If you were to look at what a professional looks like, those people. Embody it for me, then you can see what they've done and what they have achieved. So let me, if I can just take a couple of minutes. I want to tell a story that somebody told me, which just encapsulated it. And it was about doing training programs. 

This is basically doing a training program programs a bit like walking through the forest. You're walking through the forest every day. You walk through the forest, you got it. There's trees. Okay. Trees. It's nice. And then you walk through the forest with somebody who really knows the forest and it goes on. 

Look, you can see, you always learn where south is in the forest, because moss, always grows on the side of the tree towards the sun. So in the Northern hemisphere, the moss is always on the south side. Then you said, I didn't even know there was moss. Now I can see what every tree moss. I know where the south is said you see those little shoots, just the tops being eaten off yeah. 

Deer school. They're the ones that been grabbed out Badger. That's a Badger. Now if there's a Badger or a deer or the way it's been taken out, that tree larch tree. What is it a larch tree Owls? So you look up, you see Owl far owl nest, what else do they drop pallets? Yes. When they eat, they drop pallets full of nutrients, who is the pellets mice. 

So if you want meat quick, look for larch Tree, look for an owl nest, put a trap down. Then you got yourself three mice in an hour. The next day you walk through the forest, completely different comp your experience and your engagement with it's the ability forest is completely different. The forest is the same, has not changed, or your recognition of what you're looking at is, and when you get to a certain level of professionalism, it is your ability to make sense out of those signals. 

And that comes in incredibly important to things like close protection. Whereas what is it different between a good close protection officer? And a less good, your ability to read the signal it's your ability, to see ahead to look into the future, to understand things. And so there's no magic and there's no voodoo, but it's something like that can change it. 

And often it's just somebody saying something with new terminology, a new word, when you analogy like I've just given and I think that just, that is that's where incredible value can be added very quickly. And I think one of the things that we do not really have is we still out, really have a body of knowledge and accepted body of knowledge. 

People do things in their own way. And we know the open view and the closed box. We know these sorts of things in driving schools, et cetera, et cetera. But if you look out on the market and this is up to the top level, who are the people getting senior positions in global corporate organizations, ex-soldiers ex-leuitant colonel here, or ex Colonel there, or chief superintendent this and. 

I really respect what you did, but I don't understand why that makes your corporate security manager. And such, I don't know, someone reaches strategic security, that's a different skill. And so at the top level, we're doing that. And at the bottom level, we're doing that as well. We're taking people on, who in my opinion, without any disrespect to anybody, do not bring the same level of professionalism to the game as anybody else does. 

Now, those people you're looking after. If you look at everybody else around them, their tax advisors, the best in the world, they're marketing people, the best in the world, the people who cook in their corporate kitchens are the best in the world. What do they have? Second rate, third rate, cheap security. I don't know, but my feeling is that is hopefully changing, but I've been saying that for 30 or 30 years. 

So I'm not sure if it is, but people like Ivor Terret , people like Gabriel Snyder and others like them. Add yourself, Jon, who I've known for many years, and I've seen you. And the contribution you've made to this. And, to which the only thing we can do, which is try to move the dial. What can do is try to move the dial a bit, which you've done And then you just hope that the good people come with you and the others listen, good luck, God bless them. They'll go their own path. 


Jon: Absolutely. That's all we can try and do. I really liked the, walking through the woods analogy and the picture you painted is certainly a very compelling reason for why we should open our eyes more, why we should understand what we're seeing and interacting with. 

but why do you think there's such a shortage in the first place? Is it that the, the compelling arguments and reasons for doing good training in risk management aren't made well enough as well as what you've just stated there, or is it it's the shortage coming from training lack of qualifications, career paths, not being structured enough? 

W what's your thoughts on that? 


Dr David Rubens: The truth is that security in general is considered and it still is overall overarching, a low, skilled, low paid low status job. That's what it is. And almost all contracts are taken on a lowest cost basis. You have a 50 PNL and certainly if you look at the lower levels, frontline people, they're making less money now than we were 20 years ago, to be honest. 

So the first thing is without compunction, there's almost no, there's no push in order for people to do it is exciting, especially when you're a lot of security, special, close, but close protections. There's very few people making a full-time professional. It's a case by case job by job contract, by contract thing. 

So to invest a couple of thousand pounds, that's a serious commitment when you're not sure when they come back, it's going to be on that. But the thing about it is is that the world we're living is becoming more complex. There's no doubt about it. And so therefore we need to be able to bring something to the table, which is appropriate to the risk environment, what principals are operating in them. 

And I think more and more that is happening. I think, nowadays the people doing this stuff, they know about it, they understand it. There's some really, we've spoken with maybe dispariginly . There are some really good players out there. Some really good professional players who bring honor and integrity and discipline and professionalism to the game. 

And what you can do is hope that they can. And to support those people. So when we're doing stuff, we should be supporting those people as well. 


Phelim: But David, in terms of supporting those people, if I put my mind in, the frame of mind of an operator who might be not very far along in their career would I treat risk management training the same way I might treat a master's degree. 

It might not get the, a job now, but as you said, later down the line, it will differentiate you. But in my life, actually nobody's ever really asked about my master's. So my undergrad, the no one's, I'm a bit disappointed in that respect, but for the poor operator that is thinking, where should I spend my budget? 

Would you say risk management is something that yes you might do now, but you're going to have it returned rewards later or will they see something. Now as they are in, in, in their operational career, I 


Dr David Rubens: think that's a good, that's a good, that's a good question. I think both apply. You both had immediate feedback or return on investment if you wish. 

And of course, longer term, one of the things that changes when you do good training is it's not just what you know, but it's how you've visualized the world. It's how you conceptualize. What is happening around you? The language you use, the terminology you use, the way you structure, what you're doing. And so if you go in and somebody says, okay, what do you think your role as a close protection officer is?, Well, you'll say, it is to look after the principal and that's fine. 

And then you do a course and they say what'd you think the role of a close protection officer is? I think it's to create a safe environment where the principal could live their life as normal, as possible in accordance with the perceived level of threat and the ability to move up or down, depending on the changing risk environment, we're operating in, that is a different level of conceptualization of what you're doing. 

And I think that will get recognized. And the fact that you have a deeper, stronger, more sophisticated or developed understanding. The second thing about it is to go back to building your career, you don't do the training to get the job you're doing. Now, you do the training to get the next job or the job after that, you're building for the future. 

One of the words that one of the words we all use is resilience is the word is always resilience. Resilience is something you have to pay forward for. If you're not resilient, Five minutes before something happens or the day before something happens, you don't start to become resilient. You don't suddenly become fit, suddenly learn how to dance. 

You don't suddenly learn a language, you pay forward. And I think that in your career, you pay forward, and so you're thinking about what is a job I want to do now. I imagine I know that John and myself, and probably, I imagine if you look at the people you were hanging around with 15, 20 years ago, and you can say, okay, out of those hundred people, how many have moved on maybe 20 and then okay. 

How many have moved on in the next five years? Maybe three or four. They also move on. You have to pay for it. You have to invest now. I did my doctorate, which is something I'm very proud of. 28 people started on that program, paying full fees, which is a lot of money for people for. For people. Yeah. 

So basically that's a selection process, like any other selection. And the reason that I do what I do now, what I do now with the ISRM is because of my doctorate. If I've stuck with my masters, I would not be doing this now. Now I didn't know that was going to happen when I did my doctorate, but I trusted that if you do good stuff will come out of it. 

And so you're investing in the future and then you have to decide what are you going to do with it? 


Phelim: Indeed. And I think that's key because if we can help paint the picture or the vision, the pull factor for today's operator, then they can say, ah, yes, I'm going to be a CSO in the future. 

And yes, there is a massive jump between private and corporate security. But maybe that's a painting we can do, but at the same time, people are suggesting that tomorrow CSO, for example, doesn't have to have any security background whatsoever. They could come from another discipline. I'm not personally a fan of that angle, but some people have put it out there. 

Some people have said why don't you just get the actuarial scientists to turn their guns on to some other form of risk? Which is where we are. I'd be interested in your thoughts of, this super leader of the future. That's got all sorts of hats and things, what do we think they could look like? 

And could a CPO aspire to be that 


Dr David Rubens: many organizations are asking themselves. And certainly within the academic world, I'm involved in a number of dialogues, which is saying, what is it that we need to do? How do we create, as you said, and I think we have to differentiate between the chief security officer and the chief risk officer. 

I think those are two separate branches, but that's okay. But I certainly think that you need to bridge, we need to go to bridge those two gaps, the operational side of things, and then the. Management side of things. And in order to do that, you've got to fit into that world. One of the things about a close protection officers, you have to be able to fit into the environment that your principal is operating it. 

It's I go to the opera house. Can you bring up the opera house? And if they could have down in funky rave in New York, you've got to go to fit in there as well. And you can't do both, you to know the world that you're living. So I think that the conversation we've been having for 30 years, literally a certain for 25 years is how did we get our voices heard in the boardroom? 

How do we get there? And the truth of the matter is, and I've been saying this for 25 years, We need to belong there. We need to belong to any, you need to wear the right shoes, new music daily with the right title, and you'll be able to speak properly in the right terminology. 

And I think that's true within any context that one of the things absolutely that you've got to get right, is that when you walk into that room for the first time, whatever you do with your CEO or CSO or somebody just coming into the team for the first time, when you walk into that room, people are going to look up and they've got to believe you. 

They've got to believe you. And it's not because you're bluffing or because you're putting a show on, or because you're putting your shoulders out. It's because you have that confidence and that integrity that you know how to do your job properly. One of the major differences, and you're welcome to cut this out if you don't like it. 

But one of the major differences is between now and 25 years. Was it twenty-five days ago, 60% of the people that I met were wankers. They were just, they were assholes. I used to have, man, I don't hang on, do I want you on my team?, no, I do not. Do I want you around my principal? No, I do not Do I want to do business with you. 

No, I do not. I can genuinely, I do this all over the world. I can genuinely not remember the last time I met someone. I didn't like, I can generally not remember because you get to a certain level and being nice as part of the package. People got to people got to think that you're professional because everybody's under pressure everybody. 

And to bring you onto my team is a high risk bet. Because if you blow it neat set up late, or you turn up, whatever it might be, if you don't in the wrong shoes, that's not your problem that loses me. Can I tell a story about, a story about JP Morgan, which I've told before other things, but I think it encapsulates it. 

We were given the task of looking after Jamie diamond, the head of JP Morgan. And he was going to be in six countries, nine countries over six days in the middle east. And they wanted from us eight, three car team, plus it team leader in nine airports all over the middle east for six days. No security. 

Just so wherever he was flying with his Leer jet, flying in the air, flying in there, we would have a three-car teams. It's great. Fantastic job. This was 20 years ago. So anyway, we had that sets it all up, had all the teams on everybody do and keep a record. Jamie flying here, Jamie flying there, everything went well. 

Six days later, wheels up end Op. Thank you very much. I spoke to the guy in London, the head of security, and he said David come in for a chat. Okay. He said first of, all, David, thank you very much. Great job. By the way, Jamie says, this is Jamie diamond, right? CEO of JP Morgan's, meeting principals and presidents. 

And he said, Jamie said, day number three, driving number two, top button missing. 

And not only did he notice that, but he put in his report because his attitude was, I thought you said these guys were good. If you said these guys were good, why the hell is he turning up with a button missing? And what else do we need to worry about? Now? I always give that as an example, Hey, that's the level you need to work at? 

And B I love. And like I said, first of all, my apologies and I will speak to the team leader about that from the ground. Secondly, to be honest, if that's the only thing that went wrong, except fair enough, but it shouldn't have happened. And my attitude is mate, you want to be in this world. You've got to live like that. 

That's what you're going to live at. That's minimum 

and that gives you a chance. And that's true on everything. I remember teaching 30 years ago, 30 years ago, I used to say, there's three things you got to get right. Turn up on time. Whether I close when you brush your teeth in the morning thing, what's one thing I can do better today. 

If you keep doing that, you're in you room with the chance? 


Jon: I liked that a lot, David, and it brings us kind of bike round to the early stages of the career. So we've, we went on a trajectory that to see where, not just risk management training and qualifications can take us, but just generally, planning a career on having that foresight. 

And that got me to thinking, there's a lot of people who come into the industry either with a military or police background 

for myself it was the military. And when I first joined up I wouldn't have hired I as a private, any vision at that age of myself becoming an RSM, for instance, 

and I guess no one does really. And so probably we would have no RSS. If it wasn't for the fact that the military has created a structure whereby you're, you start taking on the training incrementally, as you suggested before you need it, but at a time when that level of training is relevant and you keep progressing. 

So then we come into the security industry. Even though we've been part of this, system, with this very successful formula for training people incrementally to take you throughout a career and build on that, step-by-step we don't necessarily employ that. And I can understand certain factors for that. 

The career progression isn't as obvious in the security industry, it's more competitive. And of course, you're paying for it out of your own pocket, but thinking of that comparison, that's really a good analogy for anybody with that sort of background to say this is how I can take myself from one place to another and how perhaps I should be thinking about having a career in the industry. 

And I know you were involved in, early discussions with the SIA. I know you voiced that. I haven't exactly been overjoyed at what transpired in that, the SIA have blown, what could have been a very good opportunity to create something, but, going back to the, basic training required to become a frontline operator in this industry. 

And of course this is relevant across the world and across the pond, even though the same structure, isn't there to, to our brothers and sisters across in the U S but do you think that at that basic level, we should be incorporating risk management early into the protectors training? 

It sounds like a no brainer, but of course, it, it is a big meaty subject, right? If we do, how would we go about that? Would it be something that should be, mandatory, and compulsory as part of the training or something that should be left down to the operator to progress with once they've completed that basic training 


Dr David Rubens: Again, John, really, insightful questions and questions which have significance. 

I'm going to jump to that at the end, then we'll come back. If you look at the protect duty, this just come out, which is basically come out of Fagan's law, Martins law. And it says that now venues have the responsibility to do a risk assessment and you go surely they should have done that before. 

And now they say who does the protect each and Martinez will apply to doesn't apply. For example, to parks, does it apply to beaches does apply to open areas. Is there a risk? Do you think that there's a possibility and it's actually made in a park or, or a patient has at risk, then why wouldn't you want to do a risk assessment? 

ack, as you said, back in the:

And then you do a venue manager. 30 years later that hasn't happened. Basically you come in, it's not a professional training program. It's a license to work program, which is minimalistic in skills. I think absolutely everybody should be taught how to do a basic risk management within your own venue, within your own venue. 

What are the risks? And to start thinking about that, to take proactive ownership and to give people the skills, what we saw when the SIA came in there, they gave the ownership of writing those programs to various people who put their own stuff in there. And it was actually ridiculous. You have people talking about psychological things like that, I can't remember now, but the language was just wrong and they were trying to impress everybody. 

with how clever they were, rather, than say, what does our door supervisor on the ground need to keep people safe? And I think we still have lots of those questions. You look at the SIA and I haven't been involved in the SIA for many, many years, you still could see. Every couple of years, they try and rewrite this way of framing it like that. 

It's like sticking bits of piece of plasticine on, that's not how you create an integrated body of knowledge, and it's not how you create a body of knowledge that allows people to create at the start of their career and understanding of the professionalism. There's no question about it. Anybody who comes to fit your kitchen sink in has more training and qualifications than a door supervisor. 

There's no question about it. They've been through a training program, they've been through our apprenticeship program. They've been, they have skills if they can demonstrate, in my opinion, the SIA has never achieved that. And I think it was a missed opportunity. 


Phelim: David I'm interested then to ask a nice sort of question that sort of encompasses a lot of what we've been talking about. 

What is the ISRM doing to further this em, and plug the gaps where perhaps some jurisdictions, have gaps. And of course it's great to, to highlight the kinds of support that that you've shown for the BBA in the Circuit Magazine. 


Dr David Rubens: I think what we've done is we've created a platform. 

We've offered a platform. And so we now have as pretty well, everything I do and that's both Deltar and the training. ISRM, and even. My biggest consultants is everything I do is collaborative. I believe in collaboration. Absolutely. And we got out of the way to make ourselves available for collaboration. 

So we now have we work with people like if frontline offices potential emphasis, we work with NES associate of healthcare security association, university, chief security officers Institute of hotel, security management, UK crowd management association, et cetera, et cetera. We work with all of these organizations to try and create a platform and an opportunity and a space where good things can happen. 

And I think that each of these organizations individually has an understanding of. And the benefit that increased professionalization can bring what they're often missing is a pathway or a structured framework, which will allow that to happen because of course everybody's incredibly busy. 

Everybody's under pressure, everybody's stressed, nobody has any spare bandwidth. So I think that the first thing to do is to have had that conversation and then over time that would develop forward. So I think what we're doing is we're creating a space. We have, for example, on LinkedIn, we have the frontline security Alliance. 

People can just join up in that and have a conversation, et cetera, et cetera. So I think we're trying to quite actively collaboratively create networks and frameworks and structures to allow those conversations we had. And then if you are interested in that conversation, you've got somewhere to go to. 

If you're, if you think that either you're interested in that, or maybe you could benefit from it or you could contribute to it, then there's a home for you. There's a place. I think probably that's that we can say, that's what we're trying to achieve from this. 


Jon: that's fantastic. 

David, and one of the big reasons why we wanted to firm up solidify our relationship with the association and the magazine with, the ISRM was because we realized clearly there's a gap here between the two factors between operators coming into the industry. 

And at the point at which they realize that risk management skills are useful, as well as the training, as well as the qualifications in terms of their career prospects. And so to be able to begin that education process as early as possible, I thought that was fundamental. In terms of our reach and mine, my personal knowledge, there was nobody better for us to connect with than yourself on that. 

And, in drawing this conversation to a close, I think it would be really interesting to get your thoughts on where you think, risk and the threats are in the current landscape. obviously we've seen a lot of change over the last few years. We've had the Manchester arena incident. 

There's the storming of the Capitol. And of course we're just coming through a pandemic. As we're maybe starting to come out of that now, where would you say people should be focusing their attentions globally on, on different risk factors at the moment? 


Dr David Rubens: I think what we're seeing is the growth of instability in general instability. 

Maybe you could get an plane anywhere in the world, but it's when you get off that plane, they could've changed the rules. You know what I mean? You could be going into a flight lockdown. You could be not be able to come back. We see, for example, more and more countries are very quick to close down the internet, close down, communications, close down borders, and you can be caught. 

You can be caught up in instability anywhere in the world. There is nowhere in the world that is more than 24 hours away from instability. You look at Holland. Poland went nuts at the end of last year and suddenly having riots, and fighting the police in Holland. So I think. 

It is the ability to basically it comes back to it. John, there's no magic, there's no voodoo. It is the ability to give a professional service. That is what it is about. It is the ability to understand it has always been to understand the life and lifestyle of your principal and behave accordingly and to have an understanding of the risk environment you're 

because things can change very fast. 

and the truth of the matter is that anybody who's working with a principal who is using personal protection has to recognize the fact that at some stage you're going to have to make a move. You might make a move. Now making a move is not knocking somebody over making a move is, getting them out of a building. 

Okay. Do you know where the back entrance is? Do you know where that is? One of the questions we ask people to look to see if they're any good is, do you know where you are? And it is unbelievable how many times people cannot answer that question. And if you don't know where you are, if you cannot tell me where you are, my friend one day that sort of get into trouble, definitely get into trouble. 

So getting those basics works as a matter of course, turning up on time, thinking about what you're doing, knowing where you are understanding the local culture, et cetera, et cetera. I understand local culture is incredibly important. There was something recently about people working in the west bank in Israel. 

My friends, if you don't know how to work in the West bank, do not claim that you can go to the west bank and work in West Bank because you cannot, and you're going to start a lot more trouble than you're gonna solve. so it is basically if, as it always is. Be good, be nice. And when you get an opportunity over deliver, and hang around and look after people do favours, there's nothing wrong with it, but to do the basic thing to the good things and trust in yourself, invest in yourself. 

That's it. 


Phelim: Fantastic sentiments. And 100% made the case for professionalizing risk management. Just as much of the industry wants to professionalize itself from barbarians to the boardroom. As that book title goes it's been an absolute pleasure having you on I'm really excited about our strategic partnership. 

I really love meeting all of the different cream chapter heads. There's too many to dimension in one go. But but it's fantastic each time. So from John and myself this has been a fantastic addition to the Circuit magazine podcast and we look forward to more collaborations with you, David 

I feel motivated to undertake further risk management training. I think it's crucial for you wherever you are in your career to say, you know what, further down the line I'm going to need this. But actually right now it shows me where I am and how important my work is. What have you taken from it today, John? 


Jon: I really enjoyed David's analogy of walking through the forest and, being able to get yourself from a, to B from one side of the forest to the other is maybe what a lot of us are doing in our protector careers. And it's only once you realize that actually there's so much more going on around you and so much more that you can be aware of that the value of getting those risk management skills earlier in your career is understood.. 


Phelim: It isn't it well talking about getting value earlier. We had a great number of new professionals come to the seventh annual executive security and close protection technology forum last week in person. Which I think is a great segue to celebrate the industry coming together. I was very pleased to see you in person again, which you know, we haven't done in a few months. 

How has everything. 


Jon: Yeah, it was fantastic. I really enjoyed the day. It was so good to be in a room with so many colleagues, so many friends, so many familiar faces that I hadn't seen for such a long time and also so many new faces as well. And a lot of those were part of our community. It was really great to hear so much fantastic feedback about the podcast and the magazine. 

And it's the kind of feedback that you only get when you're in person, when you're stood, looking at somebody face to face so that it was a brilliant day for me. And of course, underpinning all, that was a fantastic day of education and learning as well. 


Phelim: And we did try to bring some new topics, some bold topics which did generate a lot of debate, shall we say? 

And it was particularly nice to see, as you say, new faces and old faces come together and debate it. I know that at least two people joined the BBA just recently, and this was their first sort of exposure to the community this way. So that was lovely to see. And then of course we had some fantastic speakers including Ivor Terret, Mac Segal, Jackie Davis Mike O'Neill, but we also had colleagues from across the pond Brian Leek Brandon Shaeffer, Carney and and then in the afternoon I thought it was quite nice longstanding friend. 

We had Collin singer talking with me a little bit about canines and and so on. So a lot of food for thought. Interesting topics and interesting speakers. And it was fantastic to see everyone in person. And by the way, just as John mentioned, we are very keen to hear the feedback. 

Now, a lot of people are delighted. I would hope I'm just assuming this other delighted by what we put out, but then they, then don't give us the feedback about how delighted they are. So it was really nice to get that. But I guess what I'm saying is you, the listener you're sitting, walking, running out there, listening to this do get in touch good, bad, ugly. 

We want to hear all about it and your suggestions. So John, I know we also received a few articles from the events. So thank you very much, who you are. It's fantastic that you're now contributing. But what have we got coming up that that you want people to be aware of? 


Jon: You mentioned the articles. 

Yeah. We have pulled in a few good articles and we were in the final the final stages of production with issue 61, which is about to go out. But I've actually held things up slightly just so that we could get one of those articles in there because it's a fantastic piece and I'm really excited about it. 

And I just wanted to get that out sooner. So if you're waiting on issue 61, it is going to be a few days delayed, but don't worry. It will be worth the wait. 


Phelim: Worth the wait indeed. And, I love how we're drawing from, different people's experiences and people are really writing about new things as well as things that you might expect. 

But it was fantastic to see everybody. I know some people haven't seen each other in, in, in two years. So thank you for making the trip. We had colleagues from Europe, colleagues from the states one from Asia, at least. So definitely gonna build on that. And of course we are planning our next virtual circuit magazine event on a very relevant topic. 

I'm very much hopeful that it's very much relevant to today's podcast guests, Dr. David Rubin's. But we will release more on that as details come through. Thank you very much for being such an engaging community. Napa protects the app and the BBA connect app are really lively and people, of course, from the owners, shared some fantastic photos and that testimony. 

So keep that going. We know that you are a part of this community, that we're listening to you as well as us talking to you on this podcast. So keep it going, keep listening. And we look forward to welcoming you on another fantastic edition of the Circuit magazine podcast.



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