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Identifying future leaders
Episode 4 • 21st December 2023 • How to Take the Lead • Lee Griffith and Carrie-Ann Wade
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Are you spotting future leadership talent?

And if so, are you clear what to do next?

In this episode we discuss how you can identify future leaders in your organisation and what you can do to support them.

We cover:

  • how you can identify future leaders
  • what happens when you spot leadership potential
  • how to ensure your leadership aspirations for someone are aligned with their own
  • recruitment processes and how they can help or hinder your leadership recruitment
  • ensuring you are looking for leadership potential that brings diversity.


Resources and helpful links

About How to Take the Lead

How to Take the Lead is a show exploring all things leadership.

Every episode we explore a different part of life as a leader, questioning everything we've ever learnt and sharing a few of our own stories along the way.

If you want to learn how to do leadership your own way, join hosts Lee Griffith and Carrie-Ann Wade as they debunk myths, tackle stereotypes and generally put the leadership world to rights.

Get involved

If you enjoyed this episode why not subscribe to the podcast. We would love it if you left us a rating or review and feel free to share the link to this episode with anyone else you think would find it interesting.

If you want to watch this episode, subscribe to our YouTube channel to make sure you don't miss out.

And you can be a part of our Substack community, where you can get extra bonus goodies, network with a community of leaders and get direct access to us both.

We're also over on Instagram for more behind the scenes, news and views.

Plus if you want to work with us to challenge and change leadership in your organisation get in touch by dropping us an email howtotakethelead@gmail.com or DM us on the socials.

Transcripts

Speaker:

Carrie-Ann Wade: Oh, it was meant it wasn't meant to be a

Speaker:

sign. I don't know what that was an exhale of something.

Speaker:

Definitely not a sign because I'm excited about future

Speaker:

leaders. Okay. So that's what I wanted to talk about today. So

Speaker:

hopefully that's, you're okay talking about that today. Is

Speaker:

that so my line of questioning is gonna.

Lee Griffith:

I'll give it my best shot,

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: give it your best shot,

Lee Griffith:

you're never an expert in everything. Welcome to

Lee Griffith:

how to take the leap, the podcast where we challenge the

Lee Griffith:

myths and stereotypes of what it means to be a leader today, and

Lee Griffith:

help you to succeed in post without compromise. I'm Lee

Lee Griffith:

Griffith.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: And I'm Carrie-Anne Wade. And together

Lee Griffith:

we will be your guides question everything we've ever learned

Lee Griffith:

about leadership, sharing our experiences along the way, and

Lee Griffith:

inspiring you to make a real impact in your role. Visit

Lee Griffith:

house,

Lee Griffith:

take the lead.com For show notes, past episodes

Lee Griffith:

and join our community enjoy

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: this episode

Lee Griffith:

Hello, everyone, welcome. Wave from Lee. How are you, Lee?

Lee Griffith:

I'm good. I'm good. I'm doing this I'm not

Lee Griffith:

going to be I felt like I've been out practice the last

Lee Griffith:

couple of episodes in slightly having some existential crisis

Lee Griffith:

within as we've talked. This

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: sounds terrible, but you're on it now

Lee Griffith:

you've really focused you're ready for it. I felt a bit rusty

Lee Griffith:

myself. I've got to be honest. And and like, don't know why.

Lee Griffith:

Because we're just having a chat. Like we always do. We just

Lee Griffith:

happen to be recording it for the podcast. So I'm not really

Lee Griffith:

sure what's going on there. We're just out of practice. It's

Lee Griffith:

because we've done our own and we've been talking to ourselves

Lee Griffith:

and other people and we've not not got back in the swing yet of

Lee Griffith:

talking to each other. But hopefully we don't sound too

Lee Griffith:

rusty and out of practice to the listeners. I've got to make a

Lee Griffith:

disclaimer, I have a neighbor who is appears to be doing

Lee Griffith:

something with wood and there's a I was about to say there's a

Lee Griffith:

sort of random on and off. Buzzing high pitched buzzing

Lee Griffith:

sound that's happening. So if you can hear that listeners, I'm

Lee Griffith:

very sorry. It's my neighbor's wood has nothing to do with me.

Lee Griffith:

And but I just thought I'd apologize for that in case it's

Lee Griffith:

off put in for anybody and particularly off putting for you

Lee Griffith:

Lee. So just throwing it out there. So

Lee Griffith:

you know, it's very Divine Comedy there.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: I guess about the woodshed. Something's

Lee Griffith:

happening out in the woodshed

Lee Griffith:

getting number 90 is nice reference there. Yeah,

Lee Griffith:

for any

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: listeners get that reference, please do let us

Lee Griffith:

know on the socials or drop us an email. And And of course do

Lee Griffith:

do use all of those methods and more to get in touch with us

Lee Griffith:

because we'd love to hear what you're thinking of this series

Lee Griffith:

this episode. If there's stuff you want us to talk about into

Lee Griffith:

the future, you can get in touch via our socials, you can drop us

Lee Griffith:

an email, you can even engage with us over in our substack

Lee Griffith:

community, which is very exciting. And yeah, I don't know

Lee Griffith:

why I feel I take a lot of comfort from the substack

Lee Griffith:

community. So I'm hoping some of our listeners will join us over

Lee Griffith:

there as we go through this series. And of course, we would

Lee Griffith:

love it if you if you're watching on YouTube. Or if

Lee Griffith:

you're listening on your favorite podcast platform. If

Lee Griffith:

you could do whatever you do to make sure these episodes are

Lee Griffith:

always first and foremost dropping in every week when they

Lee Griffith:

land. So you don't miss any. And we'd also love a rating or

Lee Griffith:

review. So that sounds like enough at this point to keep

Lee Griffith:

people busy

Lee Griffith:

yet have you mentioned youtube or on YouTube

Lee Griffith:

or new churches if you want. Although I have to say I don't

Lee Griffith:

know if it's my image of you, but I think you might smudge

Lee Griffith:

your lips. Start Wow. Bottom the other side of the side. There we

Lee Griffith:

go. That's bad. I see. Yeah.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: I didn't tell you in whatever episode it was

Lee Griffith:

where you have bad hair because I didn't even notice. Just my

Lee Griffith:

lipstick. Say thank you. That's the sign of a of a true friend

Lee Griffith:

there the whole lipstick on your teeth thing. Thank you. So

Lee Griffith:

that's improved things for our YouTube viewers. podcast

Lee Griffith:

listeners don't care at all. So on that note, shall we crack on

Lee Griffith:

and get on into the meat of this episode, which I wanted us to

Lee Griffith:

talk about future leaders. And when I say you

Lee Griffith:

said that was such a sigh. Yeah.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: It was meant it wasn't meant to be aside it know

Lee Griffith:

what that was an exhale of something. Definitely not aside

Lee Griffith:

because I'm excited about future leaders. Okay. We have talked

Lee Griffith:

before about leadership development in lots of different

Lee Griffith:

forms throughout how to take the lead. And we even had a whole

Lee Griffith:

episode on what organizations can do to help to develop

Lee Griffith:

leaders and of course, what leaders can do to do that. But I

Lee Griffith:

didn't think we'd really focused on actually how you start to

Lee Griffith:

identify leaders for the future. And that's something that I

Lee Griffith:

loved in particularly in their communications base, but also

Lee Griffith:

just a bit about like, how do you build that pipeline or

Lee Griffith:

succession plan or whatever you want to call it in terms of kind

Lee Griffith:

of future leaders and leadership for your organization. So that's

Lee Griffith:

what I wanted to talk about today. So hopefully, that's,

Lee Griffith:

you're okay talking about that today. Because that's where my

Lee Griffith:

line of questioning is gonna go.

Lee Griffith:

I'll give it my best shot, give it your best

Lee Griffith:

shot, you're never an expert in everything. So we'll get we'll

Lee Griffith:

get an answer for it's the best.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: You are, you are the go to guru on all

Lee Griffith:

things. Leadership, please. So look at the face. Again,

Lee Griffith:

listeners can't see that face. But viewers can on YouTube. So

Lee Griffith:

I'm just gonna get straight in there to say, does this all

Lee Griffith:

start from the point of recruitment? So are we

Lee Griffith:

considering when we are in our leadership positions, how we are

Lee Griffith:

actually recruiting leaders for the future, and that might mean

Lee Griffith:

us personally. But it might mean our organizations as well. And

Lee Griffith:

we've had conversations this series about not every leader is

Lee Griffith:

in a hierarchical position of leadership. But that doesn't

Lee Griffith:

mean that they don't have potential to be leaders in your

Lee Griffith:

organization. So I would just be interested to know your views on

Lee Griffith:

kind of, are we recruiting in the right way to pick out our

Lee Griffith:

leaders of the future?

Lee Griffith:

So there's two different ways. There's almost

Lee Griffith:

two questions in that isn't there? There's the IS, IS

Lee Griffith:

recruitment, how we find our future leaders? And then the

Lee Griffith:

other question is, are we recruiting in the right way to

Lee Griffith:

find our future leaders? So I'll kind of try and tackle both if,

Lee Griffith:

if I may?

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: Yes, you may I give you permission. That was

Lee Griffith:

super polite of you. Just roll straight on in there haven't

Lee Griffith:

whatever you think.

Lee Griffith:

So I think recruitment is part of it.

Lee Griffith:

Because Absolutely, organizationally, you need to

Lee Griffith:

make sure you've got the right people serving in your

Lee Griffith:

organization to begin with. But whether you're you recruit with

Lee Griffith:

the mindset of is this a future leader is the questionable bit.

Lee Griffith:

So I think you need to recruit the right type of people for

Lee Griffith:

your organization, where you are and where you want to get to in

Lee Griffith:

the future. But aside from that, there is the question around

Lee Griffith:

recruiting leaders. If I could park that bit for a second, I

Lee Griffith:

also want to caveat that I don't think the focus of identifying

Lee Griffith:

future leaders can just be to look from the outside. And a lot

Lee Griffith:

of people do tend to and I'm certainly guilty of this in the

Lee Griffith:

past that short term, thinking we've got a gap we need to feel

Lee Griffith:

rather than invest in

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: it that will come on shore.

Lee Griffith:

So I think there's a lot of people that will think,

Lee Griffith:

oh, we need to recruit leaders from the outside and bring

Lee Griffith:

something new and fresh in from the outside. And so I think it's

Lee Griffith:

a really nuance, as all of these conversations around leadership

Lee Griffith:

are is very nuanced. You need the right person for the role,

Lee Griffith:

and for the organization. And they need to be aligned with

Lee Griffith:

what the organization is aspiring to be able to do. But

Lee Griffith:

we know that being a leader isn't the as we said in the last

Lee Griffith:

episode is not a one size fits all, affair. It's you know, you

Lee Griffith:

as a leader, you've got your own strategy and your own approach.

Lee Griffith:

And then the organization and the that leadership team, the

Lee Griffith:

board or whoever are going to have who they are looking for.

Lee Griffith:

And it's about how how do you align those two things? And so I

Lee Griffith:

think, some points, often when you're recruiting, you're

Lee Griffith:

recruiting for the here and now, you're not necessarily always

Lee Griffith:

thinking about the longer term goal. Have I answered that

Lee Griffith:

question? Yeah, I

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: think you have answered that question. They and

Lee Griffith:

I guess I would just build on that bit. Because it's

Lee Griffith:

conversation I've had with a couple of people over on the

Lee Griffith:

other podcast, if I may say that, around that kind of

Lee Griffith:

spotting future talent, I guess, and how, how do you recruit for

Lee Griffith:

that, as you say, because you've got a specific role that you

Lee Griffith:

need to fill in your team or organization, and that's what

Lee Griffith:

you're recruiting for. And we've had some quite interesting

Lee Griffith:

conversations in that space about actually how much of it is

Lee Griffith:

about sort of technical skill and expertise and how much of it

Lee Griffith:

about a bit is about getting a good fit somebody with the right

Lee Griffith:

attitude, the right values, and you can teach them the technical

Lee Griffith:

skill, but maybe you actually might be looking to change your

Lee Griffith:

recruitment focus a bit and to recruit for somebody who, you

Lee Griffith:

know, you can see is going places and it's got that

Lee Griffith:

appetite and that that right attitude and those right values

Lee Griffith:

So I guess a lot of it also is down to kind of the

Lee Griffith:

personalities as part of that recruitment exercise in terms of

Lee Griffith:

what they're looking for, and whether you are all aligned with

Lee Griffith:

your thinking there. But you also, I guess, need some of that

Lee Griffith:

challenge, because equally, you don't want to end up recruiting

Lee Griffith:

a person that you think it's got loads of potential for the

Lee Griffith:

future, but then can't actually do the job that you need them to

Lee Griffith:

do in the right now. So there is always that balance to try and

Lee Griffith:

strike isn't there? So I think

Lee Griffith:

that that also begs the bigger question around

Lee Griffith:

recruitment practice, and, and where responsibility for

Lee Griffith:

recruitment sets. And I had a really interesting conversation

Lee Griffith:

with a chief executive who is basically saying, you know,

Lee Griffith:

operational managers are good at doing operational management

Lee Griffith:

things and not necessarily they're good at recruiting that

Lee Griffith:

isn't recruiting for values recruiting for all of those

Lee Griffith:

other skills, without they'll be better at recruiting for their

Lee Griffith:

areas of expertise. And don't fit organizations necessarily

Lee Griffith:

think of that matrix of we need skills sometimes. But we need,

Lee Griffith:

what's the fit? Or the kind of what's the rest of the thing

Lee Griffith:

that this person will bring to this organization? Yeah. So

Lee Griffith:

there's a whole other debate, I think about recruitment

Lee Griffith:

practice. Absolutely.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: It could potentially be a whole other

Lee Griffith:

episode could net because as you were saying that I was just

Lee Griffith:

thinking about having the opposite experience as well,

Lee Griffith:

where actually the recruitment processes and the way in which

Lee Griffith:

an organization wants you to manage the recruitment of

Lee Griffith:

somebody can sometimes feel quite stifling, because it's

Lee Griffith:

based on scoring people based on their examples they give around

Lee Griffith:

their technical ability, for example, rather than being more

Lee Griffith:

values based, or you being able to have that conversation about,

Lee Griffith:

okay, they might not have scored the highest and being able to

Lee Griffith:

demonstrate they can do that very practical task, but

Lee Griffith:

actually, in terms of fit for the team and organization. They

Lee Griffith:

seem perfect. So I think there's there is lots isn't there around

Lee Griffith:

that sort of recruitment practice them that needs to be

Lee Griffith:

explored in that sense. So and So yes, thank you. I did think

Lee Griffith:

that you answered that question there. In response to the

Lee Griffith:

question you asked me when I went off on a bit of a tangent,

Lee Griffith:

but um, you've touched on this already, in your sort of caveat

Lee Griffith:

to responding to that, that first topic around recruiting

Lee Griffith:

leaders for the future, which is around, not always looking to

Lee Griffith:

the outside to kind of do that and bringing in fresh. So my

Lee Griffith:

approach when I've built teams, and I've recruited is that I

Lee Griffith:

don't always just focus on, you know, recruiting the right

Lee Griffith:

person, as in the role as my deputy, for example, and how I'm

Lee Griffith:

supporting that person in that role to grow. But I'm always got

Lee Griffith:

an eye on that broader team. So for example, if someone was

Lee Griffith:

promoted, in my team or externally to my team, are there

Lee Griffith:

people in the team who are ready to step up? Have we prepared

Lee Griffith:

people to take on that next step in their career or in their

Lee Griffith:

leadership journey internally? And I guess, I wonder, to some

Lee Griffith:

extent, whether that's easier to do in the context of a

Lee Griffith:

professional specialism so mine would be communications rather

Lee Griffith:

than that broader context of perhaps an organization's

Lee Griffith:

leadership team. But I would just be interested in your views

Lee Griffith:

about how we can go about building that sort of internal

Lee Griffith:

pipeline of leaders who might be ready to step up into the

Lee Griffith:

future.

Lee Griffith:

I think that point you make around Is it easier? If

Lee Griffith:

you work in a specialist area, I mean, organizations are made up

Lee Griffith:

of specialist functions. So every every pipeline is coming

Lee Griffith:

from a specialist. And we always talk about the fact that you

Lee Griffith:

kind of funnel up, don't you through your area of expertise.

Lee Griffith:

And I think this then demonstrates where the gap is,

Lee Griffith:

which is that if we invested more in the broader skills, and

Lee Griffith:

the development of those broader leadership skills, the softer

Lee Griffith:

skills, whatever you might want to call them, if that's what we

Lee Griffith:

focus on deliver on, it doesn't really matter whether you are

Lee Griffith:

nurturing them within your specialist pipeline, you're

Lee Griffith:

getting them ready for the organization, the organizational

Lee Griffith:

preparedness comes with it that doesn't it and so I think

Lee Griffith:

organizations would have more ready made leaders that are well

Lee Griffith:

rounded in the way they need them to be. If they thought at

Lee Griffith:

an earlier stage about how do I support specialisms to, to

Lee Griffith:

nurture specialist and generalist in one. So I think

Lee Griffith:

yeah, I think that's an interesting thing around

Lee Griffith:

pipelines, I suppose the other issue is this hierarchical

Lee Griffith:

nature of organizations and when you think of a pipeline, you are

Lee Griffith:

just reinforcing I suppose that hierarchical nature because I

Lee Griffith:

suppose when many people are recruiting, they are looking at

Lee Griffith:

the context and the nature of the type of leader that is

Lee Griffith:

needed for that particular thing, usually within their team

Lee Griffith:

and area. And even when you talk about the broader team, you're

Lee Griffith:

still talking about it in the context of the broader team of

Lee Griffith:

communicators, rather than the broader team of

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: no guessing the question it was, is it easier to

Lee Griffith:

think about it in a sense, rather than as an an

Lee Griffith:

organizational leadership team? So I guess there's two elements

Lee Griffith:

to that question, isn't there? Because actually, when you're

Lee Griffith:

part of a broader organizational leadership team, how are you

Lee Griffith:

thinking about how you're growing and developing people to

Lee Griffith:

step into that space, but I guess the natural way of leaders

Lee Griffith:

stepping into spaces because someone moves on and they get a

Lee Griffith:

promotion. So even if you're being promoted beyond your

Lee Griffith:

specialism because there's something that's seen in you

Lee Griffith:

that you fit into a role that would be really good in that

Lee Griffith:

leadership team space, that actually that's only happening

Lee Griffith:

because of that hierarchical structure still, rather than it

Lee Griffith:

being Yeah, more, more broad brush, I suppose. I

Lee Griffith:

think there's also a snobbery, though, as well,

Lee Griffith:

about progression in fields and areas. And as much as we talk

Lee Griffith:

about border skills and preparing people for border

Lee Griffith:

organization, we do look down and and I know, we've done this

Lee Griffith:

in the kind of communications field when I was working in in

Lee Griffith:

corporate. I know other professionals do this as well,

Lee Griffith:

if someone comes in from outside, there's the oh, they

Lee Griffith:

don't have the necessary skills and experience. So it's like we

Lee Griffith:

can't have our cake and eat it. Yeah.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: So how do we how do we challenge people in

Lee Griffith:

that space, I guess is the next follow on from that in terms of

Lee Griffith:

you can't have your cake and eat it. So you're wanting to think

Lee Griffith:

about supporting people in your own organization to develop so

Lee Griffith:

that there are opportunities that open up to them. But same

Lee Griffith:

time, as you've said, you know, sometimes that can feel

Lee Griffith:

challenging and can and feels like it's only about stepping up

Lee Griffith:

into the next level of role that's available to you. So I

Lee Griffith:

guess one of the things I was thinking about is we've talked

Lee Griffith:

in an episode around leadership development, and what

Lee Griffith:

organizations can do to develop leaders. And again, I think

Lee Griffith:

organizations probably offer quite a lot to people from we

Lee Griffith:

talk about this a lot as well. Management versus leadership. My

Lee Griffith:

experience for organizations is they often offer a lot of

Lee Griffith:

management, development opportunities, and training and

Lee Griffith:

all of that kind of stuff quite early on in people's careers. So

Lee Griffith:

people can start to get a sense for what it might be like to be

Lee Griffith:

a manager. But actually, anything that's that's happened

Lee Griffith:

in the leadership space, in my experience has always been for

Lee Griffith:

people who are already at a certain level of leadership. So

Lee Griffith:

there's that mismatch there as well isn't there that you're

Lee Griffith:

kind of investing in, in identifying managers of the

Lee Griffith:

future, but maybe not giving people the opportunity to

Lee Griffith:

understand more about what it would mean to be developed as a

Lee Griffith:

leader? So yeah, I guess Sorry, I've gotten I've answered my own

Lee Griffith:

question, when I was asking you the question, no, but I guess

Lee Griffith:

it's about, you know, how do we get that balance and start to

Lee Griffith:

think about how we grow in our own and supporting and

Lee Griffith:

developing people in our organizations. But

Lee Griffith:

that's got to be role modeled from the top. So

Lee Griffith:

you need you need that executive board level to be looking at

Lee Griffith:

their deputies, and how they develop their deputies,

Lee Griffith:

recognizing that they've come up through a specialist route and

Lee Griffith:

given them the broader skills, and then that being a thing that

Lee Griffith:

is focused on every stage and step of an organization. So at

Lee Griffith:

any point that you're recruiting, how are you testing

Lee Griffith:

for those broader skills that you might need in leadership?

Lee Griffith:

And I think even when you work in a specialty, we often talk

Lee Griffith:

about, if you're aspiring to move into a more senior

Lee Griffith:

leadership role, you're going to need to take on an

Lee Griffith:

organizational perspective, not just your specialists

Lee Griffith:

perspective. And so the burden gets put on you to think about

Lee Griffith:

how do I step into that space? But if we flip it the other way,

Lee Griffith:

where's where are the leadership teams, helping people to

Lee Griffith:

understand what they do in context to the bigger picture?

Lee Griffith:

Where are they helping them to articulate and test or try

Lee Griffith:

different projects, that is outside of their area of

Lee Griffith:

expertise so that they're getting the broader leadership

Lee Griffith:

skills that they might be? I think, even as managers or

Lee Griffith:

functions we can be very protectionist of our teams. And

Lee Griffith:

therefore we're not helping them in that preparation. And I say

Lee Griffith:

that as someone who probably talk to X team members would say

Lee Griffith:

Yeah, I didn't know that. But I, you know, that was I did think

Lee Griffith:

short term sometimes. And this is what we need to think I

Lee Griffith:

didn't always think, particularly in my early years,

Lee Griffith:

so much in the long term nurturing. And I think that is

Lee Griffith:

the shift that needs to happen. And that's

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: not about creating those opportunities for

Lee Griffith:

stretch isn't there but you know, might sometimes feel a bit

Lee Griffith:

risky for you organization, they are as a leadership team. But

Lee Griffith:

it's not sometimes until you take those risks that you spot

Lee Griffith:

the opportunity and those people with potential to go beyond the

Lee Griffith:

immediate sphere that they're working in, I guess. So. On that

Lee Griffith:

note about spotting leadership potential and nurturing it, I

Lee Griffith:

guess, like, how do we do that? And I'm thinking about that in

Lee Griffith:

the context that we operate in with how to take the lead, where

Lee Griffith:

we talk a lot about doing leadership your own way, and not

Lee Griffith:

necessarily conforming to traditional leadership

Lee Griffith:

stereotype. So tip kind of taking that on board, you know,

Lee Griffith:

how are we spotting leadership potential that might actually I

Lee Griffith:

guess, be different from our own style and approach to

Lee Griffith:

leadership? If you can answer this million dollar question,

Lee Griffith:

you're being employed by everybody to spot all of their

Lee Griffith:

leaders for the future, Lee might be a money making

Lee Griffith:

opportunity? Well,

Lee Griffith:

I think there's that thing isn't there around.

Lee Griffith:

Understanding where it is that you want to get to as an

Lee Griffith:

organization, and recognizing each leader in that most senior

Lee Griffith:

leadership team need to know, this is the I suppose the

Lee Griffith:

dynamic we're seeking to create in our organization, this is

Lee Griffith:

where we need to get to, and these, this is the people that

Lee Griffith:

we need to have around us, in order to get us to that space.

Lee Griffith:

And, and having the willingness and the maturity, I suppose to

Lee Griffith:

know that it's okay to have different different thoughts,

Lee Griffith:

different views, different approaches, as long as we're

Lee Griffith:

aligned in where we need to get to at the end. As long as

Lee Griffith:

there's maturity around, risks that we're going to take, as

Lee Griffith:

long as there's maturity around, I'm going to create a safety

Lee Griffith:

culture that we can speak up and challenge each other in a

Lee Griffith:

productive way. That's, that's still respectful, and kind and

Lee Griffith:

all of that kind of stuff, but that we are being honest about

Lee Griffith:

what we do well, where we need to grow, and all of that kind of

Lee Griffith:

stuff. So that's that's the headspace that that senior most

Lee Griffith:

senior leadership team needs to get in. And then you start to

Lee Griffith:

role model that down in the organization, if you're, you're

Lee Griffith:

behaving in that high performing state as a senior team, then

Lee Griffith:

that should be how your deputies and that next kind of tear, if

Lee Griffith:

we talked about in hierarchical sense. I think the problem with

Lee Griffith:

creating pipelines in organizations is that people

Lee Griffith:

look to nurture their own, and they perpetuate bias and

Lee Griffith:

behaviors, I suppose. So that's where the self awareness comes

Lee Griffith:

in. And all of that I worked in an organization where we had a

Lee Griffith:

potential future leaders matrix, where every director had to map

Lee Griffith:

out where direct reports. Now that could be really powerful if

Lee Griffith:

you had the right mindset and approach of that most senior

Lee Griffith:

leadership team. But if you don't, you've got very

Lee Griffith:

subjective views. You're not doing it in partnership with

Lee Griffith:

your deputies, you don't really understand where they want to

Lee Griffith:

go, where they want to develop, and all of that kind of stuff.

Lee Griffith:

And so I think there are exercises you can do, but you've

Lee Griffith:

got to do that work as a senior team. Get to set my sense. Yeah,

Lee Griffith:

absolutely.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: It absolutely does make sense. And I think

Lee Griffith:

there's something as well about not making assumptions in that

Lee Griffith:

space. There. So you just talked about if you're not doing that,

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in collaboration with those people you're identifying as

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future leaders, like what's the point in doing it like what's,

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what is your intended outcome. And I've worked in organizations

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and lead teams where I think I've spotted some potential

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future talent in that leadership space and got really over

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excited about it and making all my plans for like, how that

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person was going to be able to step up into a different

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position and you know, be more kind of visible in that

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leadership space and and then I've got all over excited and

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then gone and had the conversation with the individual

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and actually the individuals like that's not for May it's not

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my aspiration, it's not where I want to head, I'm very

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comfortable operating in the space that I'm operating in, I

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don't have any desire to want to be in any sort of leadership

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position in the future. So thanks. but no thanks. So

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there's also that element of needing to have those sorts of

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conversations and creating an environment where it's okay to

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have those conversations as well, rather than making

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assumptions that like, right, I've spotted a brilliant person,

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I'm now going to invest all my time in forcing them maybe into

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a space where they don't actually really want to be

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because then you're not actually going to get the best out of

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them, are you so I think that awareness of other people's

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intention and desire for the future is also a really

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important part of kind of spotting and nurturing that

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talent, I guess, I

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think it's important to I suppose it all,

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which was down to you can't have a pipeline without awareness. So

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there's awareness of the individuals, as you've said, and

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what their individual needs are, there's awareness of your own

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bias, and making sure that you're not creating an echo

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chamber, that you're creating diversity of thinking and of

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approach and all of that kind of stuff. But then there's also

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this awareness around not confusing people's desire to

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manage. We're sharing leadership ability, or someone's

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professional expertise with leadership potential, because I

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think that can be and it ties into some of those other

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conversations that we've been having of someone might be

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really excelling in their role. But that doesn't mean they've

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necessarily got those border skills you need to to reach what

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it is you want to reach as an organization. Yeah. And you

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you've set them up for a fall because you put them on this

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pedestal. Yeah,

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Carrie-Ann Wade: that is that setting up for failure, isn't

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it? And what support do you put in place if maybe somebody is

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technically an expert in their field, and maybe does want to

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move into a different type of position more in that leadership

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space? Like, what support are you giving them to enable them

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to do that and learn those skills, and that maybe comes

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back a bit to the point around? Generally, organizations are not

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very good at having leadership conversations with people until

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they're in a leadership position. And that doesn't feel

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quite right, because that's not helping you to spot and nurture

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that that potential leadership talent for the future. I guess.

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One of the things that you touched on when we were talking

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earlier is about that reaction, sometimes, particularly when you

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work in perhaps a specialist field or profession, of bringing

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new people in, who maybe don't have, perhaps it's sector

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experience, I don't know what you know, and kind of going

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like, oh, that doesn't seem right, because they haven't got

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that knowledge and skill. But hopefully, they've been

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recruited because they've got the right values, attitude, all

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of that kind of stuff, and, and potential. And I guess there is

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something around, being wary about, you're building your own

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internal pipeline that you don't miss out on the opportunity to

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bring different experience and talent into your organization,

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because you're so focused on all we want to do is grow our own,

Lee Griffith:

because I think that can be quite dangerous as

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well. Yeah. Yeah, completely. I think that we've

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everything, there's a balance, you've got to strike. So you

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always want to be challenging your thinking your reference

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points? Are you just doing the same old, same old? Or are you

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looking for something new and different and new and different

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can be investing in your people to explore what new and

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different looks like and set them up for success in the

Lee Griffith:

future, new and different can be bringing someone in who's going

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to challenge you, and your thinking and the way that you

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work? And I do think you need a bit of churn and a bit of fresh

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blood being brought in. But it's yeah, what's your intention

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behind it?

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Carrie-Ann Wade: So as we're talking about churn, people

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coming in, there's a natural, I guess, element to the next bit

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of the conversation about people moving on. And we have done an

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episode entirely, I think about moving on as a leader and what

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that looks and feels like previously. But if we're talking

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about going down that route of building your own pipeline, and

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positioning your deputy, for example, to be your natural

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successor, or maybe not your natural successor, but have the

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best opportunity to step into that space when you move on.

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Because that's why you've hopefully invested in in that

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individual. Gee, that. I guess the question I wanted to ask is,

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if you're moving on for a positive reason, you've got

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different role in that organization, you've got into

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promotion, whatever, then great. And you've identified that

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you've got somebody who perhaps could step up now and have that

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opportunity to lead that feels really natural and like a good

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positive progression. But if you're moving on maybe for more

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negative reasons, because perhaps you Your experience as a

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leader in that organization hasn't been that positive,

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perhaps in that leadership space that maybe your deputy is not as

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exposed to on a regular basis, there is perhaps a poor culture

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or some bad behaviors playing out? How do you manage that

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situation without compromising your integrity, because there's

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a bit of you as a leader, that's like, I've got you ready to take

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on my role when I move on. But there's also maybe a bit of you

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that feels challenged, because you're like, This person is

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really good. And am I throwing them to the wolves? Let's be

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really, let's just say it like that, like, you know, what do

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you think in that sort of space,

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or? I think that, well, I suppose my first thought

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is, I think there should be no surprises. So if you're doing

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the nurturing work to build up your pipeline, that includes the

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warts and all understanding of them understanding the

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organization, so it shouldn't come to this, there shouldn't be

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such a disconnect between their experience of the organization

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and your, I'm going to say your experience. But I'm also then

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going to talk about perception, because I think this is this is

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the difference. I can't assume how I think and feel about an

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organization and my reasons for leaving an organization is going

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to be the same as my deputies. And what I feel I am willing to

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tackle or not willing to tackle or willing to handle or not

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willing to handle that they are going to think and feel the same

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because hopefully, I haven't created someone in the same mold

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as me. So I think there is something about we have to

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accept that our deputies are, or whomever it is that's coming

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into that role, are their own human beings, they have their

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own thoughts and feelings and their own ways of responding to

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situations that may be similar, but they may be very different

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to ours. And I think if you've given them a good grounding in

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your role, then they're gonna have an awareness of the reality

Lee Griffith:

of the role and of the organization, it's their choice,

Lee Griffith:

then what they want to do with that, and I don't think you can

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take on the burden of guilt or otherwise, if they decide to

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stay or feel like you're handing over something toxic to them,

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because as I say, there should be no surprises. And I've been

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in places where I've recruited, you know, deputies with a view

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that at some point, maybe they could be the one to take over

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from me. And I was preparing them. And part of that

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preparation was about me backing away, more and more from the day

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to day running of the team and being very light touch in my

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management approach that they could shape the function as they

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wished, allowing them more access to the senior team so

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that they were building that trusting relationship with them

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directly. And so therefore, they were experiencing similar things

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than that I would have experienced or understanding of

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the personalities. And I had various reasons for why I

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decided I needed to eventually leave the organization. But it's

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always been really, really important to me that my

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experience wasn't the thing that influenced how they felt about

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their role or the organization. Yeah,

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: I think that's a really good point, isn't it

Lee Griffith:

about not wanting to overly influence on the day, these

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people can operate with their own individual kind of judgment

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and exercise their own individual choice. And it's

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important that actually, they go into that, like you say, with no

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surprises, because that would be a weird dynamic to have with

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somebody who's Yeah, that pity or a broader senior leadership

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team, if actually, what you're presenting to them was a totally

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different picture of, of what your perception is of what's

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happening in the organization. But equally, you know, they,

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they have the right to make their decisions as an

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individual, and you almost don't want to bias that too much with

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your own very personal experience of that, because it

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will be that person's choice to make when to hopefully they've

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been positioned to be potential good candidate for that role on

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your departure, then it will be their choice to make whether

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they feel like they want to step into that space and, or not, and

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how that works for them. And I, I have been in that position

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previously, where I've worked for an organization where my

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boss left the organization and I had quite a bad experience

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within the organization. And we had been quite close. So I'd

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heard quite a lot of that. And I probably had some preconceived

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ideas about what the chief executive might be like to work

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with and what some of the other directors might be like to work

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with. And I was asked to step up and head up the team and be more

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in that leadership space. And for my own growth and stretch. I

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wanted to do that but with some apprehension, I would say

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because I was like, oh my goodness, I'm gonna have to deal

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with this. Chief Executive now he's been portrayed to me to be

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a certain way. And actually, my experience of that individual

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was completely different. Because as you quite rightly

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said, I was a completely different individual to my boss

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who, who then left. So actually, me building a relationship was

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different because of, you know, it is just, it's unique to

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everybody. So I do think it is about individuals kind of making

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their own way, isn't it and making their own decisions not

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being untainted by your own personal experience and

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feelings? It's probably more of an emotive thing, isn't it that

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gets transferred like you're transferring your emotions about

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something, which probably isn't, isn't a fair thing today. Yeah.

Lee Griffith:

At the

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end of the day, you should be nurturing adult

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adult relationships with your team. This isn't about parent

Lee Griffith:

child, you shouldn't be seeing yourself at the end, if you are

Lee Griffith:

you've got you've got work to do in your self awareness, space,

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and all of that kind of stuff. Because you, you shouldn't see

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yourself as protector of the team, it should be an adult

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relationship. Yes,

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Carrie-Ann Wade: I love that. I could talk about this forever.

Lee Griffith:

But I'm conscious of time and the fact that our listeners have

Lee Griffith:

probably got other things they want to do, as well as hearing

Lee Griffith:

us have these insightful leadership conversation. So I

Lee Griffith:

think that was a good note, to finish that kind of last bit of

Lee Griffith:

the conversation on but as always, we like to try and be a

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bit more action focused with our thinking and give people a sort

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of how to take away. So what action could people take, having

Lee Griffith:

listened to this episode, to consider how they are

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identifying future leaders for their organization?

Lee Griffith:

I think for me, it boils down to how are you

Lee Griffith:

focusing on the broader skills, develop development, you know,

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those soft skills, whatever you want to call them? How are you

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getting your team to understand the importance of those? How are

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you demonstrating the importance of those in the way that you

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work so that you're role modeling. And I think in some

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ways, if that becomes more of the focus, you are naturally

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helping the evolution and pipeline of your team because

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you're creating those well rounded leaders that you're

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going to need for your organization.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: I think that's really brilliant advice and a

Lee Griffith:

good action. And I guess the only thing I would add would be,

Lee Griffith:

make sure you're having those conversations with the people

Lee Griffith:

that you are potentially spotting as leaders for the

Lee Griffith:

future to understand where they're coming from, and what

Lee Griffith:

they might need in terms of that support. And even if it's on

Lee Griffith:

their radar to want to, you know, want to be in that space

Lee Griffith:

in the future. So there's definitely lots in there about

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kind of listening and creating the right environment. So thank

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you, Lee. I've locked up in that conversation. I know we could

Lee Griffith:

carry on having it for the rest of the day, but we won't, we'll

Lee Griffith:

let listeners get on and go about their business. But I'd be

Lee Griffith:

really interested to hear about listeners experiences. So drop

Lee Griffith:

us a line, get in touch with us on the socials. And we will be

Lee Griffith:

back again with another episode very soon.

Lee Griffith:

Thanks for listening. Don't forget to hit

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follow to make sure you get the next episode. And if today's

Lee Griffith:

discussion resonated, please leave a review on Apple

Lee Griffith:

podcasts.

Lee Griffith:

Carrie-Ann Wade: We also have our substack community where you

Lee Griffith:

can bet behind the scenes info, Ask Us Anything session and

Lee Griffith:

build your network of like minded leaders. Visit how to

Lee Griffith:

take the lead.substack.com To find out more.

Lee Griffith:

And if you want to work with us to challenge and

Lee Griffith:

change leadership in your organization. Get in touch by

Lee Griffith:

dropping us an email how to take the lead@gmail.com or DM us on

Lee Griffith:

the socials. Until next week. Get out there and take the lead

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