The core theme of this podcast episode revolves around the significance of legacy as articulated by Pastor Mark Batterson. We engage in a profound discussion that delineates the distinction between success and legacy, emphasizing that true legacy is defined not by personal accomplishments but by the impact one has on others. Throughout our conversation, we explore the concept of "cathedral thinking," which encourages a long-term vision that transcends individual existence, advocating for actions that benefit future generations. Pastor Batterson shares his insights on decision-making processes, underscoring the importance of humility and the necessity of discerning God's will as we navigate life's complexities. Ultimately, this episode serves as a clarion call to cultivate a mindset oriented toward enduring influence and the nurturing of a legacy that will resonate through time.

Takeaways:

• The concept of legacy was thoroughly explored, emphasizing its profound significance beyond mere success.
• Listeners were encouraged to engage in cathedral thinking, envisioning long-term impact beyond their immediate context.
• The dialogue illuminated the importance of humility in leadership and its foundational role in spiritual growth.
• Mark Batterson's insights on decision-making reveal the necessity of aligning choices with divine purpose and peace.
• The podcast underscored that legacy is fundamentally about what others achieve because of our influence and guidance.
• Listeners were inspired to consider the long game in their personal and spiritual endeavors, focusing on enduring faithfulness.

Hey there and welcome back to the Clarity podcast.

This podcast is all about providing clarity insight and encouragement for life and mission.

And my name is Aaron Sanemier and I get to be your host.

Today we have the phenomenal opportunity to have with us back on the podcast Pastor Mark Batterson.

Many of you know he's been on the podcast before.

We got to sit down, him and Dick Foth and I, and it was a great convers.

Today we're going to learn and get to learn more about his book gradually, then suddenly how to dream bigger, decide better and leave a lasting legacy.

And that's what we kind of focused in on on this podcast was legacy and the what that looks like.

What's the difference between being success and legacy?

Right.

So successful life might mean things, but legacy is really the, you know, the impact that we have on people and the importance of focusing in on that.

So looked at questions like what is cathedral thinking?

That was a new concept for me.

Thinking for term this idea of what he thinks of when the word legacy comes to mind.

Has he had any shifting mindsets as he's done?

Mark has been persistent.

He's walked through this with a view, a long view in pastoring and mentoring and dreaming and writing and parenting and being a spouse and just very intentional in the way he does life.

So it was great to learn from him once again and just have the honor to sit down and ask him questions, get his gets his feedback from it and just a joy.

Obviously we share mutual friend Dick Foth and Dick is the one to help connect me with Mark in the beginning.

And so we have some fun also reminiscing about Dick and thanking him for the friendship he's been to.

Both of us do want to ask you also to continue to send in your questions for Backchannel Foth.

That's where Dick jumps on the podcast and we sit down, answer questions that listeners send in and that's been fun.

We've done that over the the course of the podcast and we are entering pretty close to to six years and getting up to that time, which is hard to believe.

So I do want to thank you all for listening in.

Some of you listen to every episode, some of your new listeners just jumping in and we're 300 and man 50 some plus recorded, not yet distributed, but they're not, you know, made live yet.

But we, we've done a lot of episodes.

It's been fun.

Thank you for listening in and looking forward to the days ahead.

Do have some exciting guests coming on the podcast and do want to keep the mission of providing clarity and life mission in the forefront.

Well, there's no time better than now to get started.

So here we.

Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity Podcast.

So excited to be here again today with a friend of the podcast.

Mark.

Welcome back to the podcast.

Hey, it's great to be back, Aaron.

Mark, it's probably unlikely that somebody listening into this podcast has not read your books or listened to a sermon or heard you speak before.

But if someone hasn't, if they're in the unlikely case of that, will you share just a little bit about yourself before we jump into?

Yeah, I got a lot of questions for you.

Well, been married to my wife Laura for 33 years, which says more about her than me.

We have three kids, got our first grandchild about a year ago and had the joy of pastoring national community church in D.C. for 29 years.

About to celebrate our 30th anniversary.

Wow.

Wow.

Well, looking forward to our conversation today.

Gradually, then suddenly.

That's the new book coming out and I got a lot of question for you.

So for the first one, it would be this, you share that spiritual transformation follows the path of gradually, then suddenly.

How have you seen that play out in your, your, your life, Mark?

Well.

Rarely do things happen faster than what I wanted as we'll start there.

We want things to happen at the speed of light, but seeds still grow at the speed of Eden.

And generally speaking, you know, God, God works through mustard seeds of faith.

And so you're going to overestimate what you can do in a year or two.

You're going to underestimate what God can do in 10 or 20 or 30.

And I think it's about playing the long game.

You know, we're in a culture that a lot of people aiming at that 15 minutes of fame and I would say, why don't we target a lifetime of faithfulness, long obedience in the same direction.

Well done, good and faithful servant.

And so really it's a book that's aimed at, at that long vision, long obedience and long legacy.

And a book that's countercultural, as you just highlighted, because that's that that's not what the culture, culture is about today.

One of the things you mentioned was this idea of cathedral thinking is new concept for me.

You're.

Yeah.

So sure.

What's cathedral thinking?

Well, the Cologne Cathedral is probably a good example.

About 623 years to build it.

You know, you got to have Long vision beyond your death date, so to speak.

I, I think that we've got a dream.

International and intergenerational.

We tend to think right here, right now.

God is thinking, nations and generations.

So cathedral thinking is this idea of, hey, we drink from wells we didn't dig.

Let's dig wells for the next generation.

Let's do what we do for the third and fourth generation.

So I'm just so grateful for pastors and churches that pioneered in the nation's capital long before we showed up.

And, you know, I think, you know, we have the joy of hosting the Easter sunrise at the Lincoln Memorial.

Well, we didn't start that, that, that we don't get credit for getting that off the ground.

And we just inherited their tremendous faith and obedience.

And so the goal is always setting up that next generation.

And I think that mindset's pretty critical.

So what we're trying to do in D.C. is not just build a church, bless a city to the third and fourth generation, this is Jeremiah 29, plant G, build houses, seek the peace and the prosperity of the city where God has planted you.

And it's that kind of mindset that, that I think is really important right now.

And Aaron, you, you are a Bible scholar.

So you know that, that, you know, a false prophet named Hananiah said they'd only be in Babylon two years.

Well, if you have a two year mindset, you don't even unpack your suitcase, you just rent the city.

But if you have a 70 year mindset, you do things that will make a difference to that third and fourth generation, I think that what, that's what God's calling us to.

In our present day and age, in this cultural moment.

Wow.

Wow.

And Mark, as you shared that the word that came to mind was humility when you talked about things that people had started, you have the opportunity to serve and lead now.

It takes humility to say, not just take all the credit and to point to the, Recognize the past, recognize what you get to steward in the present, but also leading towards the future too.

So is that something you've learned over time that, that humility, or is that something just.

Any thoughts on that?

Well, my first thought is you can do the will of God and God can oppose it because God opposes the proud.

So I would say humility is pretty important.

If you do the right thing for the wrong reasons, it doesn't even count in the kingdom.

So one of our core values, Aaron, is if you stay humble and stay hungry there's nothing God can't do in you or through you.

So I think humility is a really high value and it's, it's modeled by Jesus himself.

Like when you reach the highest level of leadership, it gives you the right to relinquish your rights and to wash feet.

And I think servant leadership is where it's at.

Like we were grieved by so many high profile failings and fallings and a lot of them are self inflicted.

Like if you let celebrity culture into the church, put people on a pedestal, it's not going to end well.

And you know, I would just remind us the ground is level at the foot of the cross.

Every one of us is a sinner in need of a savior.

And so I think humility is kind of that, that foundation for almost anything and everything that God wants to do in us and through us.

Yeah, good word, good word.

You know, I, I share frequently that when things are predictable and preventable, we shouldn't be surprised by them.

You know, and, and I think a lot of times in life where, you know, we see things and they're predictable and they're preventable.

But sometimes I think we, we think we're unique and it's not going to be that way for us.

But yeah, God gives us opportunities to see and the wisdom to act on it.

So small decisions.

Do you have a decision making matrix that you run through when you're making small decisions?

Because I think those small decisions, obviously they add up.

But what's the process that runs through your head?

Yeah, I might back out a little bit, wide angle lens and just say.

Big decisions, little decisions, daily decisions, defining decisions, pre decisions.

I mean, these are the things that determine destiny.

Destiny is not a mystery.

It comes down to decisions.

A guy named Crawford Laritz said when we're born, we look like our parents.

When we die, we look like our decision.

So decision making is pretty important.

You know, I, I like everybody else, I have a certain matrix when I'm trying to make decisions because you have to discern God's good, pleasing and perfect will.

And you're always deciding between here or there, now or later, this or that.

You know, these decisions never end.

So I think at the end of the day.

You know, I want God's will, God's way, nothing more, nothing less, nothing else.

And how do you discern that will of go?

Well, someone that both of us love and respect.

Dr. Bob Roden, I think is the person who told me about the peace test out of Colossians.

Let the peace of Christ rule in your heart.

And so like, do you have peace in.

In going to the mission field?

Do you have peace in.

In whatever it is that God's called you to do?

I think there are other tests, like, you know, mad, sad and glad.

What makes you cry or pound your fist on the table.

That's a professor in seminary that gave me that little matrix.

But Frederick Buechner adds the voice of gladness, like what puts a smile on your face.

So I think these are ways to begin to lean in.

And is the Lord calling me to do this?

I'll share one more.

And this is a Peter Marshall.

He said the will of God is discerned two ways you have to be released from and called to.

And he said there are going to be moments in your life where you might be released from something, but you don't know what you're called to.

And those are scary moments, like you don't know where to go, what to do next.

But that's when you really have to trust that God is ordering your footsteps and preparing good works in advance.

And then there are going to be moments where you feel called to, but you aren't released from.

Yeah.

And that.

That's where you gotta stay faithful, right where you're planted until God gives that release.

So, Aaron, those are a few ways that I think about decision making in my life and a couple of things that have helped me along the way.

No, good word, good word I shared.

I've probably prayed Psalms 32, eight more in the last year and a half than I've ever prayed it in my life.

You know, just that idea of guiding.

Direct me in the way I should go.

Counsel me with your loving eyes upon me.

But it's a prayer that I whisper throughout the day in those decisions because it's.

Wow.

Yeah, just vitally important.

So you've been.

You've demonstrated persistence in longevity and pastoring, mentoring, dreaming, writing, and I'm sure parenting and being.

And a husband.

There's the personal areas of life also.

Is that something that was gradually, then suddenly, or was that something that you saw before in the past?

I had a front row seat to long obedience in the same direction.

Don't despise the day of small beginnings.

You know, that church in the 80s would become leading missions.

Giving church in the Assemblies of God and missionaries had no better friend than Calvary Church.

And.

And I saw what God could do over 30 years, Aaron, and it really gave me a certain perspective or patience that man.

Our first five years were hard.

They, there wasn't a whole lot to show for it.

But for what it's worth, for pastors who are listening, I, I don't think it's about growing a church the first five years.

I think it's about growing a pastor.

It's about growing the leader to be able to handle whatever growth God wants to give that church.

So.

And then we have a mutual friend.

He's a spiritual father to me, Dick Foth.

And I think I saw someone who just lived his life with integrity.

Now in his 80s and still preaching at NCC multiple times a year.

But I saw what long obedience looks like and just really committed myself to that.

I said lord, if you would let me, would you let me pastor one church for life?

And he's, he's given us that joy and privilege for the last 29 years.

So I, I think it's playing the long game.

You're going to get discouraged if you focus on two or three year results.

You really got to think longer than that for sure.

Mark, you, you mentioned your, your, the family you married into and you mentioned Dick, are those people you saw?

Well, I don't know the family you married into.

But Dick, did you look for somebody that you pursued a relationship with, somebody that would be able to give you that, that, that vision for the long obedience in the same direction?

Or is that for somebody listening in?

They might say, well Mark, you had the opportunity to be around Dick Foth.

I mean how, you know, I mean that's a phenomenal opportunity.

Is that a God thing for somebody saying yeah, I want that in my life, I just don't know how to find it?

Well, I, when, when the, when the student's ready, usually the teacher does appear.

And I, I will say I was hungry in my 20s to any and every opportunity to spend time with the Dick Foth with the Doc Rhoden.

I'm someone that just, I love studying other people.

I hack their habits, I watch them.

I've watched for years how Dick Folk treats people and the questions that he asks.

I watched my father in law and the way he prayed at the altar and I, I took notes and so I, I was raised in a family that was all about honoring your elders, Aaron.

And I think what that opened me up to was hey, I'm going to honor these, these people in my life.

And when you honor the older generation, man, usually they're pretty Quick to share their wisdom and sometimes share their resources.

And what a, what a blessing that's been.

And I would say that National Community Church is a dream within a dream.

That was Calvary Church.

And for what it's worth, when Bob Schmidgall and Dick Foth were in their 20s, there was a district superintendent named E.M. clark who said, come and share your dream with us.

And so really then it's a dream within a dream within a dream.

And you can keep going back generation after generation.

The truth is all of us are beneficiaries of what happened at Azusa Street.

All of us are beneficiaries of, you know, generations who have been faithful in seeking the Lord and that's whose shoulders we stand on.

Yeah, and such a good word.

Such a good word.

And you talked about, you said about sharing resources.

I think one of the thing about Doc Rhoden and Dick Foth is they, they share friends, and that's probably one of the greatest resources you could ever share with anybody is connecting.

And Dick has such a gift of connecting people, connecting friends and.

Well, he connected us, Aaron, didn't he?

That's true.

That's truth.

That's the truth.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So one, one or two more questions I have for you.

When you think of legacy, what, what comes to mind?

Well, legacy is not what you accomplish.

Legacy is what others accomplish because of you.

And so the truth is the jury's still out.

Like when, when you, when you cross that space time continuum, enter a dimension called heaven, like the story is just starting to be written.

I don't think you have any idea at that point what your true legacy is.

So, you know, Elijah, 14 recorded miracles, Elisha, 28 recorded miracles.

And so God really did deliver on that prayer of Elisha.

I want a double portion of your anointing.

But Aaron, I would argue that's not a testament to Elisha, that's a testament to Elijah.

That Elijah is the upline.

I think Elijah gets credit, partial credit for those miracles that, that Elisha perform.

I think all of us need somebody who believes in us more than we believe in ourselves.

And so I think that's the way the kingdom works.

Like, you need spiritual fathers, spiritual mothers, you need heroes in the faith, and so many of them that I just have learned to love and appreciate.

I'm having an interesting flashback that when I, when I started dating Laura, my future father in law would invite Me to join them.

For usually it was Sunday night that missionaries would come in and we would go to a place called Rascals and we would order an onion loaf and we would just sit around the table and we would talk life, leadership, ministry, missions.

And I don't even remember saying a word.

I don't think I said much.

I didn't have much to say it.

1920, 21.

But, man, I was.

I was impacted by.

Legendary missionaries who advanced the kingdom.

In ways and in places that were so inspiring.

And.

And so I think in many ways, those conversations left their fingerprints on my soul.

And, you know, you.

You know, that ncc, I guess we're known for a handful of things.

Like we're pretty creative.

You know, we have this now.

We met in rented facilities for 23 years.

Now we have a city block that's this incredible venue that we get to host this gathering next March, agwm.

And so maybe we're known for a few things, but if you asked us, like we're all about missions, like that's what it's all about for us, that not about seating capacity, about sending capacity.

And so taking more than 300 mission trips and the purpose there it is, man, one trip is worth more than 52 sermons.

And it's not just to go and serve, but to learn.

And what happens is people get a heart and now they're a shareholder in that vision.

And then the giving side of the equation is the great joy of our lives that to be able to give to missions is easily best investment, highest roi, return on investment.

And that really is our heartbeat as a church.

And that's.

I think that's what legacy looks like.

Yeah.

Yeah, good word.

You know, since.

Since reading your book, it's made.

It's.

I've went.

Started making a list of the people probably the people might never know, know their name.

The people that have influenced my life and left the legacy.

I think of Sunday school teachers, I think of royal ranger leaders, I think of nursery workers, I think of youth pastors, people that all throughout your life, it's an amazing.

I don't know, since reading the book, it's kind of led me down a trail.

But this idea of the people that have impacted your life and they've left a legacy and they might only been in my life for two, three months, but God ordained people to come in your life at a significant time, significant reason.

And one of them just passed.

His name was Deltar.

And Heather and I, when we were our early days in Burkina was not the things the missionary newsletters would be written of.

It was more about trying to keep our head above water.

And as you said those years God was making a missionary, it wasn't about being on mission and he did a lot of work.

But Del came in.

Del and Dolly, they were there for a month each January they came critical time of our life, made an impact in our life and just taught us how to be parents on the field, how to live and work in Burkina and such a blessing and God ordained things that God, yeah.

You get to rub up against people that are leaving a legacy and the impact they make.

And I guess my prayer from all that has been is man.

I hope that God gives me those opportunities to have to impact people's lives in that way.

So Mark, I got one last question for you and then I'm going to ask you to ask you to pray.

How is legacy thinking impacting your current season and the season you're in?

Is it impacting you any differently or you, you've.

You've been thinking about legacy for quite a while.

I think we've been thinking about it for a while.

That success is succession.

Yeah.

And I'll give an interesting example, Aaron.

So it's a 130 year old building and there are 96 columns that support it.

Well, we have an acre and a half a roof deck.

If it was, it would be worth.

It would sell for 25 million.

And so we made a decision that we would dig 109 micropiles 40ft deep to reinforce those original footers.

Yeah.

So that we could build on top of the building.

Here's the catch.

We have no plans on building on top of the building.

So why would you spend a million dollars to do that?

Because the next generation might.

And that's the challenge of thinking about how do we set up the next generation.

Like very few people will influence a million people, but a lot of people influence one person who influences a million people.

And, and so I think it's really important just to.

Long vision times long obedience equals long legacy.

It's about playing that long game.

And don't get too discouraged at the early returns.

Don't even get discouraged if, if you feel like, man, was that really worth it, you're going to be shocked someday, I think at the marriage supper of the lamb.

First thousand years over appetizers, we'll probably just begin to talk about connect dots between nations and generations and how someone that influenced us, was influenced by someone who was influenced by someone who was influenced by someone.

And I, I think that mindset, I think helps us just remain faithful.

It's not our job to, to control the outcome.

All we can do is try to be faithful right where we're planted.

And when we do that, God has a way of writing.

God is always writing a bigger story, better story, longer story.

Amen.

Mark, will you pray for us?

Yeah, Lord, thank you.

For each and every person listening to this podcast, God, I pray a renewed spirit, a renewed mind.

I pray that the encouragement that can only come from the Holy Spirit, that from the outside in you would remind us of why we're doing what we're doing.

You're the one who called us.

You're the one who saves, heals and delivers.

And we're doing what we do for the applause of nail scarred hands.

So God, pray that you would get the glory, get the glory for the blood, sweat and tears that we're investing.

And Lord, I pray anointing on each one to do what it is that you have called us to.

And at the end of the day, we want to hear those words.

Well done, good and faithful servant, in Jesus name, amen.

Amen.

Sam.