This week, we're joined by Black queer YouTuber, musician, model, and artist Mars Dixon (they/she/he), who streams games everywhere as @wii_gay from Twitch to PornHub (you read that right), builds computers for trans people, believes in making gaming content more accessible to non-gamers, and is an absolute ray of gay light.

Mars shares how The Sims gave them a place to visualize a queer future, and provided sanctuary and validation during a rough childhood. Then, we dive into the story of a queer game developer, Patrick J. Barrett III, who pretty much accidentally made The Sims gay and changed the landscape of gaming forever. It's a powerful reminder of how queer people have always existed and have always contributed to the creation of culture--and we will persevere!

Also, your co-hosts do a bit of a deep dive on our experiences playing Spiritfarer and its impact on our relationships to death and our mental health journeys.

Heads up: This episode contains story spoilers for Spiritfarer (20:45 - 37:30) and The Haunting of Bly Manor (29:40 - 37:30).

Follow WiiGay on Patreon and YouTube

Follow Mars Dixon on Instagram

Donate to the Homeless Black Trans Women Fund

About Pixel Therapy

New episodes drop every other Tuesday. Learn more at pixeltherapypod.com or follow us on social media @pixeltherapypod. If you like what you hear, please take a moment to rate us, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts (or your listening app of choice) & subscribe! Thank you!

The way I play video games - well I say to myself, any game

I play instantly becomes a gay video game. Because of the way I

play or like the way I interact with the game like I make it

gay. [music break]

Welcome to Pixel Therapy, the video game podcast where we

look at the games we play through the lens of the player,

where what you play is just as important as how you play it,

and where emotional intelligence is a critical stat. Usually this

is the bit where I tell you that we bring on a guest every other

week, but this week is a bit of a shake up. We've got an

interview for you a week ahead of schedule, because next

Tuesday is election day here in the US. [Spencer screams] Yeah,

and a lot of focus, ours included is going to be on that

garbage fire. So we're making a little space and taking the week

off. But we will be back with another interview for you on

November 10. And every other week there after.

This is fine.

Yeah, yep. Um, in the meantime, though, I am as always

your co host, Jamie, my pronouns are she/her

and I'm your co-host Spencer pronouns they/them.

And this is Pixel Therapy. So pull up an armchair,

feel free to lie down on the couch and let's talk about our

feelings. Spencer, what game are we talking about today?

We, Jamie, are talking about Spiritfarer.

Yes, we are. What's Spiritfarer?

The game of the summer the game of the summer of

sadness, 2020.

Yeah, so Spiritfarer, if you haven't heard of this, it's

a little indie game came out on August 18th. It's all in pretty

much all platforms, PC and the consoles. Developed by Thunder

Lotus games who I didn't realize when I was playing this. They

also made Sundered and Jotun. I don't know if I'm saying that

correctly. Have you heard of either?

What do you know? Have you played them? either of them?

I got Jotun.

Okay

a long time ago, and it's a same hand drawn animation

style. I want to say it's like Norse gods and Norse mythology.

I played like a few hours of it and ultimately dropped it

because the - like I just didn't jive with the mechanics of the

game.

Ooh, that's interesting.

Yeah it is interesting. We'll get to that in a second

here. But yeah, anyway, that's Thunder Lotus games, they made

Spiritfarer. And this game, I wanted to read the description

of the game that they've been using, because I think it's,

it's just interesting and spot on. It's described as a cosy

management game about dying. That's right, dying. Build a

boat to explore the world then befriend and care for spirits

before finally releasing them to the afterlife. Farm, mine, fish,

harvest, cook and craft your way across mystical seas. So we're,

Yeah, I just felt like when I first read that I was

immediately like, Oh, just because, I felt like the perfect

kind of combination of like, Stardew Valley, Animal Crossing

kind of vibes with like, I definitely feel like something I

look for out of games is having my heart broken or cracked open

in some way. And so this idea of, Oh, it's like a farming

management sim slice of life thing. Plus, you're processing

really deep feelings. Like I was like, Oh my god, this is exactly

what I need. So I just Yeah, when - initially the hype before

the game I was, I was very, I was riveted.

Yeah, same. No, absolutely. There were two

things that put this game like on my radar, and like I bought

it the day it came out. And I had seen a trailer for it in

advance and was like, I'm getting that game the second it

comes out. Which is not something that happens very

often with indie games, right? Like, usually you find out about

indie games more through like, Oh, this person was talking

about this on a podcast, but I saw this game. And first of all,

it's got this gorgeous hand drawn art style. That's almost

like Disney-esque. Like really bright colors

Miyazaki-ish.

Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of the characters are these

anthropomorphized animals, which is the number one way to get me.

Like talking animals? I'm in. And then a cosy management game

about dying. And there was just something about that, that I was

like, Mmm, Yes, that's what I want. That's what I need. I want

to snuggle up with a blanket and be cozy and sad. Um, yeah, so in

the game you play as this, this young girl named Stella, who's

existing in the afterlife. You get the sense that - well you

are in the afterlife, so she's

Is Stella a girl?

Yeah.

Okay, cuz I kind of am like, I'm like Stella could be

non binary I guess they use

That's true.

They use - I think they do sometimes she/her her. Yeah,

but honestly Like, I don't know, she gives me vibes. She's got

this total like BIPOC, like, chill like cottagecore. A very

like butch. Like ready to like dig a hole or mine some ore, but

also just like super chill can cook like

Yep.

She's everything. Anyway.

Well yeah, I mean that's the thing with her, right? She's

very much like a cipher for us. Like she's, she's this, you

know, bright little character who bounces around the screen.

She doesn't talk though. She doesn't speak but she, she does

smile. She does react to the other characters around her and

she always just, she just emanates like can do. Like, a

can do attitude, like I'm here I'm showing up I'm in the

moment, and I can do whatever gets thrown at me and

Empathy

Yeah

The way that she like, she has I thought the dialogue

reactions are something that I'm not used to seeing from a silent

protagonist. She will clutch, like she'll, if someone says

something hard, like you really feel the empathy coming from

this, this character, like you see in her face and her and her

stature like she's making space to hold something more painful

or she's overjoyed and sharing in someone's success or she's

listening intently when someone is being vulnerable. Like you

get a lot of emotion out of her that almost like you would be

feeling reading this text that I don't really see from from RPGs

like that.

Yeah, there's also characters later in the game who

are bombastic or who prattle on for too long and she'll be

visibly bored or just like, annoyed with them, like kind of

blowing at her hair or like just hanging down like listening to

them like, Okay, are you done now? So yeah, she is really

responsive for a silent protagonist. And you know, we've

talked about how we don't really resonate with the silent

protagonists in first player games, but you do get to see

Stella on the screen, and you get to see her react, and that

makes her feel more like a fully fleshed character, even though

she doesn't actually speak.

Yeah.

So yeah, so Stella is the ferry master. Her job, your job

in the game is to manage the ferry that goes around and pick

spirits up around the world, you know, it's this giant boat, and

you're traveling around the ocean going to these islands and

collecting spirits in order to take care of them. The spirits,

like I said, are these anthropomorphized animal

characters, they all have different challenges that

they're kind of working through as they process their life and

prepare to move on. And you're helping them through that you're

cooking the meals, you're

building a house,

building their house, decorating their house, making

them comfortable, and then doing missions for them, they'll want

to go to a specific island to see a specific thing or do a

specific thing or talk to a specific person, and you're

helping them with all of that. And eventually, at some point,

they will tell you that they are ready to move on. And you can

bring them to this thing called the Everdoor, which is this

really just gorgeously animated golden arch that sits in a lake

that's surrounded by cherry blossom trees, and the water is

like glowing red, and it's in this perpetual like sunset

golden hour kind of mode. And so you'll bring them there and

you'll release them to the Everdoor and their spirit will

ascend onto, into the next plane of existence.

I think it's interesting too, that you have

to make the choice to bring them there. Like the Spirit will come

to you when they're ready and say, I think it's time for me to

go to the Everdoor like Will you please take me there? And you

have to, you have to become ready too, to say goodbye to

this character that you've loved and cared for. And, and you

could conceivably make the choice to not take them there

for some time. But it really puts this weight on you of of,

of you know, teaching you about being open to change and

remembering that everything ends. I don't know it's kind of

rare for, for a game I feel.

Yeah, and that's like at the heart of this game there are

some really deep themes, messages, lessons about how we

process death, how we experience death, how we let go of people,

how we ignore people, even while they're still with us. How the

like callous mundanity of life pushes us to move on from the

loss of people

hmm

and so like this game, it's, it's challenging for me to

talk about this game because it is both one of the most like

deeply emotional and impactful experiences that I've ever had

with a game. And also, there were so many times that I

fucking hated it. That this game was like, dumb and annoying. And

that sucks to have to like, hold those two things because I love

this game. And also I think it's not a good game.

Yeah, can you say more about the dumb and annoying

parts?

Yeah. So as we - like when I was reading the

description, it's like farm, mine, fish, harvest, cook,

craft. Yeah, there's a fucking lot of that. And it's not really

that fun to do.

Yeah.

And like, I love Stardew Valley, like you mentioned

Stardew Valley at the top, I played a lot of Animal Crossing,

like, those games are my jam. Like I'm here for some resource

management. This game has too many resources.

Yeah

There's too many resources to manage. Like,

there's at least 30 to 50 different resources you have to

keep track of, you can build all these different types of

crafting structures on your boat to build all these different

things. The recipe book is like 100 recipes long that you could

learn to cook and the map is huge - all of these islands to

explore. The boat doesn't move that fast. And there's no,

there's no like just one log book that you can go look and

keep track of everything that you might need.

Oh my God, yes that's what I need

to gather. Everything tha you might like - I literally -

I couldn't make progress in this game until I started keeping

track on my phone. Like I had to create a note on my phone, and

start jotting down what resources I needed and where to

find them so that I could keep track. Because it's like, I need

20 silver ingots for five different projects that I'm

trying to build. And I can't go to one place in the game and see

all the projects that might need silver ingots. No, I have to go

over to the carpenter station to see what things I can build. I

have to go to the kitchen to see what things I can cook I have

- it's - nothing is like house in one place to keep track of

it. And so it just make it confusing and daunt

ng, especially in the earlier g me, which I know Spencer,

you specifically you got kin of stuck on this game. Well,

we both did. But I kind of moved on from it. But yeah, do you w

nt to say more about th

Yeah, it's just what you're saying definitely

resonates. I think, for me, I love the farming aspect and

creating things and I - but I also am driven by my

relationships with the characters. So what happened to

me was that I had - I was inviting, I was finding spirits

and inviting them onto my boat because I was lonely on my boat

and wanted my - I wanted to have like community on the boat so

that people would have people to talk to while we're traveling,

like I'm very into the characters. And what I found was

that like when you invited spirits onto your boat, they

have needs, and they would become unhappy if for example,

you hadn't built their house yet, or you hadn't created a

meal they like in a while. Characters also like can't, they

don't want to eat the same thing twice. So I had to make sure to

keep a rotation of different dishes. And what I found is that

things like farming and cooking kind of fell to the wayside

because I was so busy criss crossing the map trying to find

different resources I needed or figure out how to progress

certain storylines that it's like. It's almost like I don't

know, I don't know, if the game was trying to fit too much into

the - it's like, you can either focus on the character stories

or you can focus on you know, building up your resources,

building up the amenities you have on the boat. But I also

found that, like the ore that I needed to build someone's house

could only be obtained after I learned a certain skill, but I

wasn't progressed enough in another character's story to

unlock that skill. So I was sort of stuck in this loop of just

trying to slowly traverse the map trying to piece by piece

find the resources I need. Meanwhile, my spirits are

getting unhappier and unhappier. So I think I wanted, I was

expecting a little bit more freedom to sort of one day at a

time, similar to like the Animal Crossings and Stardew Valley

like, focus on my farm a little bit focus on my resources, focus

on my relationships, but it felt a little bit like the game was

expecting me to do it all at once. And so it was a little bit

more stressful than, than the story would initially have you

believe it to be. It wasn't very cozy, it gets kind of frantic.

See, though, I think and this is another reason I'm torn

on this game, because like, for me, the issue is not that they

have that tension in the game. I think that tension is actually

important to the, like, what I took away from the game. Maybe

I'm giving the game too much credit but I think that it

intentionally wants you to be engaging with that tension of

getting caught up in the mundane shit and forgetting about the

spirits. I think it actually wants you to have to try to

balance both of those things because that is emblematic of

real life. And I found myself really like, when I did finally

start clicking with all of the resource management that they

wanted us to do and I was keeping track of it on my phone,

and I was doing it, I found that I was forgetting to feed the

spirits.

Yeah

I was forgetting to interact with them. I was

letting their missions languish, I was forgetting to - and we

didn't mention it, but you can hug the spirits in this game,

which is one of the most interesting mechanics I've ever

seen in a video game. You can hug them. And for nearly all of

the spirits that increases their mood. They all have these

different hug animations that are specific to their character

and how that character responds to a hug that are just, I don't

know, this game does a lot with a little. Like the way a

character hugs you tells you so much about that character and

who they are.

And sometimes they don't want a hug

Yeah, they don't always want a hug, right? Like th

re's a timer when you hug so eone, they're not gonna let yo

just hug them all the time. So you can't be like cloying, yo

can't just be like trying to hu them all the time to make th

m feel better, like the hugs ar limited. But yeah, when I wa

getting really sucked into th management sim portion of the

ame, I was forgetting to take care of them. And like stri

ing that balance, I do thin the game is intentionally tryi

g to say like, this is what real life is like, there's peop

e here with you, that you' e actively ignoring, beca

se you're so caught up in your own busy-ness. And some

imes that busy-ness is fun. A d sometimes you're just doing i

because you have to do it. B t it still is a distraction f

om the actual people in your l fe. But you also can't just h

ng on the people in your life, b cause that's not going to get a

yone anywhere. So I do think t ey want you to engage with t

at tension. But to my mind, i 's just, it's just too much.

ike the game is 30 to 50 hours ong. And I really think if they

ad pared some of that back and ade it more like a 20 hour, 15

to 20 hour game. I think they could have told a really

compelling story that I think more people would be engaged t

participate in. I'm just worrie that they leaned so hard into t

at and made the game so long a d bloated, with that stuff t

at a lot of people are going t give up on it.

Yeah, yeah, it gets a little tedious and, and I found

that I wasn't sure what I needed to do to move forward. And then

like you said, the boat doesn't move very fast. So I would be

criss crossing the map, trying to figure out what I needed to

move forward and then getting frustrated, because I'd wasted

all of my daylight getting to this island that didn't actually

have what I needed. And so it's like, ugh. But that being said,

I - that - those parts are frustrating, but I did find

myself forgiving them because I was so moved by, by the stories.

You mentioned earlier that the spirits will tell you

that they're ready to leave. Did you ever try to hang on to one?

Um, I didn't. Because of guilt. If anything I'd maybe

hang on for a day, just because I'd be like, Oh, no, already?

Like, it's time. I wasn't, I wasn't expecting that I wasn't

ready. But I guess I just, I was taking it very literally. And I

was imagining, you know, in my own life like if I love someone,

um, you know, I wouldn't necessarily - like holding them

back is selfish. It's for me, it's to make myself feel better.

It's to tell myself that things aren't changing that things can

be this way forever. And we all know that's impossible. So it

was painful. But that doesn't mean that I shouldn't do it. So

I did. I did do it. But it was always a bit of a, a bit of that

pain each time.

Yeah. There were there were two characters near the end

that I hung on to because I was getting close to the end of the

game. And I didn't want to go down to just like one spirit

that I was still working on on the boat and both of the

characters were ready, and they they just retreat into

themselves. Like they kind of stopped coming out of their

houses and interacting. So it's like you have to take them. It

doesn't work if you don't.

Wow.

Yeah. It's really moving.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, so those those Everdoor scenes, when you

do take someone to the Everdoor. You'll, you'll arrive at the

Everdoor, and they'll give you a dialog prompt and you can go

talk to them and they'll basically say, Hey, We're here.

Are you ready to take me? And you say yes, and you go get in

your little rowboat and you paddle them out towards the

Everdoor. And this like haunting melancholy like bells, music

plays and as you paddle across the lake, they'll give you this

- you have this really extended moment with the character where

they're reflecting kind of on their life as a whole. And then

processing these final moments before their death. And like, if

the game was only that, it would still be stupid powerful. I

think there were so many characters, like even characters

that I didn't like or that I liked, less like found

redemption at the door. You know, there's like, there's this

guy who's like a philanderer who's like cheating on his wife.

And I just kind of like, like, you're just kind of an asshole,

you're just kind of like a flatterer. And as we rode to the

Everdoor, he just spent the whole time talking about, just

like all these little details about his wife, about how he

fell in love with her and why he really cared for her. But he

just had always been called to live his life to the fullest

because he fought, it's implied in World War Two, and had

watched people die and just couldn't not pursue the things

that he enjoyed. There's these brothers who were like these

gangster guys, and one of them is personified by this giant

bull. And the other brother is this little hummingbird. And the

bull, the bull doesn't move, he doesn't even walk, the

hummingbird carries him around. He doesn't talk.

Wow.

And the hummingbird does all the talking for both of

them. He's the one who's constantly telling you on the

ship, like, My brother is hungry, you need to feed him.

And you realize, as you get on, as you're bringing them to the

Everdoor, the whole time, the little Hummingbird brother has

just been - he's been a jerk. Like he's been a jerk the whole

time on the boat. And you're rowing them out there and you

realize as he's talking that the bull is, is dead, or in a coma,

like he's gone, he's not there. And the little hummingbird

brother is like struggling to process that.

Wow.

And that's why he's been a jerk the whole time. So it's

just like,

It's these little animals. And so you're not

necessarily expecting the writing to come through and just

pierce right at the core of your humanity. But, um, yeah, there's

this character, on the boat named Summer. She's a snake. And

she is a vegetarian, or she's vegan. And she is like an

organic farmer. And she's a lesbian, and she was married.

And so I immediately just really bonded with her. And it's funny

because I just spent a week on an organic farm, like learning

how to work the lands and stuff and something that you said

earlier about time management about how you get so caught up

in the mundanity of your everyday tasks that you sort of

can forget the people and having to balance that, like, I

definitely felt this, like, while I was on the farm, I was

getting really into the rhythm of farm life of working and

sleeping and, and being really connected to the land. But I did

realize like, you know, I went a week without really talking to

any of my friends or being connected to the world outside

of the farm. And so I don't know, it just when you said that

it really made me think about, like, especially when you're

working in something that's so all encompassing, it takes so

much effort and presence like it can be a very much of a split of

sort of supporting those two worlds. But anyway, lots, like

just lots of funny parallels. But with Summer's story, um, she

is someone who is pursued by this dragon, and you encounter

the dragon various times throughout your journey and, and

you - when you encounter this dragon, it's diseased, and you

work to sort of chipping away at these rock, almost like tumors

that are on the dragon. And when you do that, um, it's sort of

intimidating, scary exterior melts away. And it sort of looks

very relieved at you and then it quietly swims away. And every

time that this happens, Summer becomes very upset. She retreats

into her house, and she comments on how she keeps hoping that she

won't run into the dragon again, but knows that she will. And

each time even though it hurts her to have to encounter the

dragon, she knows that she needs to help in some way and so

eventually it gets to the point where Summer comes to you and

says, You know, I, I can't outrun the dragon anymore. I

wanted more time with you. But I think it's time for me to go. I

know that my wife, like, I would hope that she doesn't think

poorly of me for giving up or for stopping, but I just know

that my time is over. And, you know, it's time for me to go.

And like I was very, I guess there's a lot of ways that you

can interpret what the dragon is. It could be. It could be an

illness that returns. It could be, I, I very much interpret it

as someone who lives with major depression and PTSD, and

generalized anxiety disorder. I don't really talk about it much

because it freaks people out. But I think of my anxiety as a,

as a beast as a dragon that lives inside me and I and I, I

think early in my mental health journey, I thought that getting

help meant that one day, I would not have to deal with anxiety

anymore, that it would be cured. But what I've learned instead is

that this beast is always there watching me. And some days, it's

stronger, and some days, it can't be contained. And other

days we're able to coexist. But even things like what I eat, how

I wake up, what's in my surrounding, that can stir up

the beast that can make it see me that can, you know, I've

really been struggling to sleep these past few months. And I,

and I find that it feels like this presence, like if I move

too suddenly, and it sees me that I'm not able to go back to

sleep like it's there, it's with me. And so, I've often felt

like, I've often been afraid that there will come a day that

I'm too tired to fight it anymore, or that I'm too weak.

And I and you know, people like me, sometimes they commit

suicide. And for a long time, I thought that would never be my

reality. But there have been times where that's a

conversation that I've had to have with myself of what might

that be like, and I am not, like, all that I'm trying to say

is that I've had to learn that my relationship to my mental

illness is never gonna just fix itself. There may never be a day

where the anxiety is gone. Instead, I have to live with it

and, and communicate with it. Um, and if I ever were to not be

able to go on anymore, that's not necessarily a failure on my

part. I will fight however hard I can. I'm not saying that I

want to, that I want to die. But, but mental illness can be

really hard. It's like I - it's hard in ways that I can't even

always articulate. Um, yeah. And so it is scary to be confronted

with, with that. So in some - with some - in the case of

Spiritfarer, you know, reading this, watching this story

unfold, it just sort of, it just sort of landed, how it doesn't

matter how old you get, it doesn't matter how much

knowledge you have. We are all fighting internal battles. And

that's just something that is a truth. And the battle may not

ever get easier, you just get stronger, or you just learn how

to endure. And it was interesting because I was also

watching The Haunting of Bly Manor on Netflix.

Mm hmm.

Which is another story that kind of has a lot of

interesting parallels to our journeys with, with mental

illness or with marginalized identities. And something that

happens, I guess, if if you want to avoid any major spoilers for

The Haunting of Bly Manor, feel free to skip ahead to the

interview. But essentially, the end game sort of centers around

this main character who, in order to sort of save the

people, she loves from this ghost, who has become violent

and consumed by its rage, she invites the spirit into herself

in order to stop it from wreaking havoc out in the world.

And as a result, in the sort of epilogue of the story, she

starts a life with her partner, who is also a woman - love that.

But, um, she mentions to her partner, like, you know, this

spirit inside me - I feel like I'm in, I'm walking in the

jungle, and there's a beast stalking me. And it's waiting

for me to put my guard down. And one day, it's going to be too

strong, and it's going to take me. And that immediately just

hit me because that's something that I've thought just in my

darkest weakest moments, like, it's gonna take me and, and this

woman, you know, she lives, like 10 years of happiness with her

partner. Knowing, like seeing the ghost having moments where

she can't control the anxiety, she has anxiety attacks, she has

trouble sleeping, she has moments where she doesn't know

who she is, or where she is, which are all things like I can

certainly relate to. And it gets to the point where she can't

fight it anymore. And in order to stop the ghost from coming

out and, and causing more violence, she takes her own life

in order to protect the life of her partner, and, and the other

people that she loves. And so, you know, that was a quite

literal, like another example of this, this thing, and I don't

know if I necessarily have a neat, like lesson that I, that

I'm taking from this. I think, again, it's just something for

me to meditate on in terms of - we all only have a certain

amount of time on this world.

Yeah.

You really do in some ways have to take things one day

at a time. Some days will be good, some days will be bad. But

it's never just - like that sounds cheesy to say like, it's

not your fault. Like I think. There's just forces operating.

And we just have to do the best we can, I guess.

Yeah. And like what I think, what I think one of the

ultimate messages of - I don't know, there's so many messages

that I can pull from Spiritfarer, but I think one of

the, one of the messages that's in there is that like, there is

a time to move on. And like that's okay. Like none of the

characters are seen as failing for reaching the point - like

that's what you're - that's the goal that you're working towards

is to be ready to ascend to the next plane. And, and something

in Summer's story that, that resonated with me personally. I

mean, I've said like, I also deal with anxiety, our anxiety

is different. You and I have talked about that a lot. But one

thing that Summer said that really resonated with me was

that she'd been trying to learn to love it.

Yes

To love that piece of herself. And I feel like that's

something that I'm constantly challenged by like. So, yeah, I

don't know, this is a powerful game, and it fucked me up. But

kind of like one of the things that I was left thinking about

after beating this a week ago is like, that cozy bit. Like, why

is it cozy? Like why is it comforting to wrap ourselves in

this kind of sadness, to watch this kind of stuff play out,

like to feel close to that to see that kind of darker stuff

reflected. And I was thinking on a - near the very end of the

game, you start to realize that Stella's going to have to move

on as well. That she's working towards her own ascension into

the next plane. And there's these scenes that happen

throughout the game where you're visited by this giant white owl,

who is - you realize is like symbolic of death, like as an

entity. And one of the last times that he comes to you - to

Stella - he's asking her why she chose this life. Like why she

has chosen to be a Spiritfarer, why she's doing this for the

spirits, and he says, "Was your vocation an affectionate duty

born of compassion? Or a display of selfishness, of everlasting

uncertainty? Did you do it for them or for yourself? To know me

and grow accustomed to my presence? To conquer me? Am I

less daunting to you now? Or am I still a ghastly shadow, a

deafening absence?

Hmm.

And I've been thinking about that a lot, because I feel

like that's death talking to Stella but it also feels like

the game talking to us, the players. Like why are we drawn

to stories about sadness and death and darkness like this.

And I feel like part of what makes it comforting is that in

putting ourselves in proximity to these kind of almost

untouchable, unknowable things, we can pretend like we have some

level of familiarity with it to try to make it less scary. Like

if we can find the beauty in transience, it can feel less

horrifying. So that's, that's kind of the thing that, that

I've been sitting with, because it is sad to know that

everything passes. And I think, you know, even if you haven't

experienced a lot of death in your life, there's a lot about

Spiritfarer that just speaks to the way people move in and out

of each other's lives, how we'll be a part of each other's lives

and will do things for each other and will impact each other

in ways we understand and ways we don't and then we'll move out

and you might never see that person again. But like, knowing

that it's all temporary, knowing that you can and will lose

someone - I think that's part of like that reminder to invest

deeper, that reminder to put down the mundane shit, and try

to connect with people.

Yeah, yes, people make life worth living. And when I am

in like, a really dark place and feeling weak and feeling like I

might be consumed, it's people that make me come back to

myself. Like, it's not like, Oh, I have to stay alive for my

apartment. And job, it's, I have to stay alive because of Jamie

so that she can be at my wedding. For my cat so that

someone will feed her. For my partner, because we have this

whole life together. And yeah, you know, it's like those are

the connections that give life meaning. So yeah, I love that,

that what you just said about encouraging you to just dig

deeper, because it is all temporary.

Yeah. So on that super peppy note.

Damn.

Yeah, thanks for hanging with us for that. That heavy

conversation. I promise. This interview we're about to go into

is not quite as heavy as

Sorry, Mars! [both laugh]

Spencer and I got to chat with the wonderful Mars Dixon,

who is a streamer, game streamer. Wii Gay is the name of

their channel - W-i-i Gay. And we had an awesome conversation

with Mars. Mars really is - there's a lot of synergy between

why Mars got into streaming and why we got into podcasting. And

this idea that we just want to broaden the idea of what a gamer

is and invite more people into that space. And so we had a

really awesome conversation with him.

Yeah. And Mars uses they, he, and she pronouns. They

are an awesome Black, queer streamer, gamer, musician. They

are in the band Aye Nako. They are also Filipinx, which is an

awesome way we also connected. They're just really cool. Highly

recommend that you check out their channels, and that's at

Wii, W-i-i-, underscore Gay, G-a-y. We get into just awesome

discussions about identity, why we game as well as talking about

the Sims, which has a surprisingly interesting gay

queer history.

Yeah.

That we're just really really excited to dive into. We

loved hanging out with Mars. We hope to have them, to connect

with - or collab with them in some other way in the future. So

yeah, we can't wait to share this with all of you. [music

break]

Hello, Mars. Thank you so much for joining us in the Pixel

Therapy studio. We're so happy to have you.

I'm happy to be here.

Thank you. Um, for those who don't know you, do you

maybe want to maybe start by telling us what you were up to

before quarantine hit. And then what you're up to now?

Okay. So my name is Mars. Usually, I'm playing music. But

I started a gaming channel on YouTube and Twitch but more

active on YouTube almost two years ago now actually. I

haven't been playing music so much since quarantine. I haven't

been working. So I've been recording a lot for my channel.

And I also started doing adult rated video games for - I have

like a Pornhub channel where I'm not naked, but I'm like playing

like adult games.

Cool. Yeah? With friends?

Um, with myself. [all laugh] Like it's just like an

extension of my YouTube channel. But just like games that YouTube

will definitely not allow me to post.

And have you always identified as a gamer?

I have. I've been playing video games since maybe like I

was five or something.

Mm hmm.

And yeah, I just like fell in love, in love with them. Like

very early on. When I was younger, I had older brothers

who were in high school. And like stoners and like, into 80s

metal and stuff like that. And like, they definitely loved

video games. And when they weren't playing, I was playing

their video games, like when they left the house.

Yeah. And what kind of significance do games have to

you now as an adult?

I guess when I first started playing games, it was

kind of more just like, escapism, but now it's kind of

like, I don't know, like, I mean, it's like a way to like,

connect with other people and video games have kind of helped

me rekindle my relationship with my little brother. We've been

playing, we've been playing video games a lot. Like online

because he - we don't live in the same place. But it's really

like kind of like, glued back, like glued together our

relationship playing video games together.

Yeah.

And we talk to each other almost every single day now. But

like after I moved away from home, which, I don't know, we

like kind of stopped talking to each other as much.

Yeah, that resonates like I, like my whole family

lives - I'm from Delaware. And my whole family pretty much

lives in the kind of Pennsylvania and New Jersey,

Delaware area. And there was definitely like, I have eight,

nine cousins and that's just the ones and like my first cousins

and growing up. Yeah, like you said, like, I have so many

memories of like everything from like Dr. Mario to like Super

Smash Brothers. And I've certainly especially, I mean,

the quarantine has brought this into even sharper focus, but I

just feel the distance. Like I really feel like wow, like my

cousins are getting older. I think too, like I never really

explained - not that I should have had to - but I never really

explained to my cousins, like, Hey, I'm trans. I'm non binary.

I'm on testosterone. I look really different. I sound

different. But we haven't been around each other enough for it

to be like a casual thing I can bring up especially when I'm

home. And I feel like we're at the point now where I guess what

resonated was just that lately we've revived this, like cousin

group chat. And the thing that has not changed between us is

that we can instantly talk about Naruto or we can talk about

games so.

Yeah

Like, if anything else, like, even if I haven't talked

to some of them in literal years. Like we can still just

connect over that. And it's just really cool.

Yeah.

So tell us about your channel.

My channel. Okay. Yeah, my channel's called Wii Gay, W-i-i.

And hopefully Nintendo won't get me for that. But I - it's like a

small, it's a pretty small channel. But yeah, I started it

- I actually tried to start a channel like years and years

before, but I just didn't really - I guess I didn't have the

patience to figure out how to record everything and put it

together. Um, but then around the time my band broke up,

because I was like, all about like music. Like, I even stopped

playing video games for a while to focus on music.

Yeah.

Um, but then my band broke up. And I was like, well, this

is something I've always wanted to do. So now I have time to do

it because I'm not playing music. And so I just like, got

just like, cheap versions of things to like, help me record.

Yeah.

Um, and yeah, I started it because I just like didn't see

people who look like me or like, had politics like I do. Like,

and also I just love video games and the way I play video games.

Well I say to myself, any game I play instantly becomes a gay

video game. Because of the way I play it or like the way I

interact with the game like, I make it gay.

Right, because you're an integral part of - the game

doesn't exist without you putting yourself into it. So

Exactly.

Oh, something I love about your channel too is your

channel description. Which says:

"A gaming channel for LGBTQ

channel description. Which says:

people who aren't yet gamers." And that really, I love that

channel description. Which says:

because something that we talked about in like, our first, very

channel description. Which says:

first episode of this podcast was, like, I, Spencer, don't

channel description. Which says:

necessarily feel comfortable identifying as a gamer, because

channel description. Which says:

I think it carries a lot of connotation, and it also just is

channel description. Which says:

a community that's very, it's a lot sometimes. And so I'm just

channel description. Which says:

curious to know, like, what, what your intent was, when you

channel description. Which says:

were writing that and kind of like, what kind of space you're

channel description. Which says:

trying to create with the channel?

Um, yeah. So I don't have a whole lot of gamer friends.

But I feel like a lot of people who a lot of my friends who

think of video games they think of like, like, stereotypical,

like, slacker, or like, gross, like, white men, or teenage

boys, like, sitting in their mom's basement or, you know,

think of, only think of like Call of Duty or like other like,

violent shooting games, or whatever. And I just wanted to

show like, there's different kinds of video games out there.

I don't know, I just kind of think that anyone could be a

gamer. When I've talked to some my friends who've been

interested in video games, they're like, yeah, like, I

didn't feel like there was space for me. So I never played video

games growing up. And yeah, I just want to make the space more

welcoming. And I just, like, tell people like, you don't have

to be into video games or know anything about video games, to

watch my channel and also, a lot of the guests I purposely

invite, or people who aren't - don't identify as gamers.

Because I just want to like, just like, open it up. And also,

I just kind of hate gamer culture. Like it just like,

really bothers me. And so I want to help change it.

I love that. We need you on the show. Cuz like

[laughs]

A lot of similarities in terms of why we started this

podcast.

Yeah. [music break]

Tell me about like, when you say you hate gamer culture, like can

you say more? Like what's up there?

There's just so much garbage. There's so much garbage

in gamer culture. And I yeah, it's just like so male dominated

and just like, feels so like, icky, and like, racist and like,

women hating and it's just like, I don't know. I'm just like, I

guess I used to think like, oh, like video games are for like,

the outcast, like the weirdos, the nerds. But I'm just like,

you're just like, the jocks or whatever, like

Wow, yeah.

You're no different. Like, you're not unique. You're not -

you don't think differently. Like, you're not an outsider.

Yeah.

There's like a culture of people who have latched so hard

on to that nerd identity that the idea of anyone else that's

not like them coming in and trying to lay claim to it too

and saying like, Oh, we're we're on the same page. We're nerds

too. That they just immediately feel like they have to put up a

wall because they feel like they've claimed this space as

theirs and now they need to defend it, instead of just

opening it up to more people. Yeah.

You know, okay, it's so funny that we're talking about

this because - so the game that you wanted to talk to us about,

Mars, was the Sims 1.

Yeah.

And are y'all familiar with the frought, gay history

drama that surrounded the Sims and its inception? Cuz I was

reading about it, and, Okay, I'm gonna take the silence as a no

and I just

I'm not sure. I, I'm not sure. I'm curious to hear what

you're gonna say.

Okay, so Maxis, right? The original developer, they

made SimCity, which was a very high level. I mean, it's not

that high level, but you're not right there in the moment with

folks you're hovering above and you're managing your bustling

metropolis. And so this was like 1999, and EA had just purchased

Maxis and Will Wright, the creator of the Sims, had been

working on his what, at that time was his concept for the

Sims. And he, because he wanted the Sims to be something

different from SimCity, he wanted it to encapsulate as much

as it could of the human experience in a natural way. It

included the ability to make a trans character and to make a

gay character. And Maxis, like, at that time, they were like -

Will was like, you know, this game is gonna be great. It's

gonna attract female gamers. 'Cause today, like, like, what,

like 60% of gamers identify as women and, or, along the

spectrum of womanhood. And Maxis was like, No, no, no, no, no,

no, like, women don't play games. Like, that's ridiculous.

We can't have this gay shit in here, like, take that stuff out.

And so the game was planning to go to production with the like,

all the code for being able to be gay, like, taken out. And

shortly before that happened, they hired a developer named

Patrick J. Barrett, III who happened to be gay. And shortly

after he came on board, he was given this old design document

to work on implementing social interactions for the Sims. And

the document was old so it still included the code for making

them gay. And he didn't know like, he was like, Oh, well,

this seems like it should be in the game. And so he put it in.

And it wasn't until a demo of the game was unveiled at E3 in

like 1999, and in the background of the video, there were two

women, Sims kissing. And so at that point, it was basically too

late. And they're like, Oh, fuck, there's gay shit in the

game. And it became like, I think, like, for you, and which

I would love to hear you talk about but for me and a bunch of

other people as well, like, it was the place where we learned

that we were queer, or was the only safe space in our rural or

super suburban homes, super Roman Catholic, or whatever

surrounded you like, it was the place to like, figure some shit

out. And so I just think the fact that not only was the game

almost killed multiple times, not only was Maxis a company

that had a history of - like another person in 1996, a gay

programmer was fired when he put, just implied like two men

were like too close to each other in a Sim copter game, and

he was fired. This is a company that was intent on not having

any, you know, homosexual content in these games. But then

when this game came out, it was the very first game that

facilitated same sex relationships. And it defined an

entire generation of games after that, so like, it's just like

queer people rock. But I love to hear. I feel like everyone

remembers where they were the first time they played The Sims.

Like, how did this come into your life? Tell us about that.

That's really funny. I actually do kind of remember

that story now from listening, because I'm also a podcast nerd.

I think I heard about that story on a podcast that was

specifically about the Sims.

Awesome

and how they were like, going to take it offline. And

how people were like, getting so sad. Anyways, I got into the

Sims. I was at a barbecue. I was visiting my sister in Kentucky,

me and my little brother, we always like, so I'm from

Arkansas, but we, in the summer, we would go visit my sister in

Kentucky. And we went to one of our friend's house and they had

two sons. And we - Yeah, they were having a barbecue. And most

of the time, or like when we got there, we were just kind of like

outside on their like dock. And then I go inside and one of the

kids was like, Hey, you want to see this game? And I was like, I

love video games. Like Of course I want to see it. And it was the

Sims and yeah, he just like boots up the computer and like

shows me his world. And I was like, What? Because I - it's

it's funny because like, I always imagined this game like,

as a young gamer like, I was like, I wish there was a game

where you could like go to the bathroom, 'cause you never get

to see that kind of stuff and like I like - this was like the

game I'd been dreaming of since I was a little kid. And

That's kinky.

the thing. Yeah. At the time, I was maybe like 13 or 14,

or something around there. And I didn't have a computer at the

time at like, at my own house. And so I was like, I, I have to

I can cook my own food.

get a computer, I have to get this game. And so yeah, he was

like, showing me the game. And then I was immediately like, so

addicted and like, everyone left the room and like, they were

like, went down to like eat 'c use like we're at a barbecue an

I was like, I don't need to at ever again. I have the Sims n

w.

[laughs] Yeah. And so yeah, I played for hours, for

hours. And everyone else was like, already, like, we were

like, outside. And I was like, nope, nope, nope, I'm playing.

And yeah, when we got - I eventually did have to leave,

they had to like pry the mouse out of my hand to get me to

like, leave their house. And I just couldn't stop thinking

about The Sims. And I was like, begging my sister. I was like,

Can I like, I will do extra yard work if I can, like, you will

pay me so I can like save up for a computer. I need to get a

computer. I need to get The Sims. And I remember later that

year, seeing The Sims on - it was like in Best Buy or

something there was, they were like doing like, it was like a

Black Friday deal. I was like, I will go I will wake up early. Go

and wait in line with you because my sister also really

loves to like, take us to these like Black Friday deals. And

then yeah, wake up at like, four in the morning or whatever. And

like stand in line.

Yeah.

And yeah, I that's how I got the Sims was at a Black

Friday deal at Best Buy. But then I didn't have a computer

yet. Um, but I could like play on my sister's computer. But

then when I went back to Arkansas, I didn't - I had the

game but I didn't have a computer

Were you just carrying it around to people's computers?

[laughs] Eventually my sister like gave me her old

computer. And yeah, I did not stop playing and like I remember

there's a website called "Seven Deadly Sims", and you can like

get different like skins and stuff. And there was, they had

like Britney Spears. And I was really into that pop group

Dream. If you remember they had a song called "He Loves You

Not". Um I was gonna sing it, but I'm too embarrassed.

Oh?

But it was just like, it was like P Diddy or Puff Daddy,

whatever he's going by now. His like, project, like girl - like

for, like, teenage pop group girl group. But anyways, there

was a skin for them. And so I had like Dream in my game and be

like, in my house.

Second life.

Yeah, so I could like, be their like girlfriend, because

well I identified as a girl at the time. Um, but yeah, like so

many lesbian households like I was. Yeah, yeah, I was taken

away.

The way that they built that system too is really cool.

Like, just in reading about the game like it feels so - even

though it was like 20 plus years ago, like it feels progressive,

especially now. Like there was this quote in this article in

The New Yorker that I was reading and Barrett, the

engineer who had managed to get the gay code back into the game,

said "EA was more worried that the Sims would flop and hurt the

SimCity franchise. It was a different time, people weren't

so violently for or against same sex relationships. They didn't

go out of the way to find it and react to it. The right wing

press didn't have the platform they have today to scream. There

was no Twitter, no Facebook, no blogs. I kind of hoped that

people would come at night with pitchforks and torches, but it

never happened." And I just think it's like today I feel

like - I guess what I'm trying to say is that like, the Sims

was the first game where I like was able to actualize the like

Twinkie gay boy that I saw myself as in my head but that no

one in real life saw me as or would validate.

Yes

And like when I constructed that character in

the game, it was like alchemy was happening in my bedroom and

my parents - no one was there to stop me and it's like, like,

there is something so radically queer about just being able to

Spencer