The discussion delves into the significance of hermeneutics, highlighting the necessity of thorough scriptural analysis to discern the intended meanings of terms and their implications for theological doctrines. Engaging in a robust dialogue, we address the assertions of various theological perspectives, ultimately advocating a careful, respectful approach to understanding Scripture. The episode serves as a clarion call for all believers to engage deeply with their faith, fostering a culture of inquiry and intellectual rigor. Join us as we navigate these complex discussions, striving to uphold the truth of the Word of God with clarity and conviction.

In this session, we engage in a multifaceted exploration of apologetics, emphasizing the need to answer challenging questions about faith and the Bible. I assert that every inquiry posed can be addressed with a thorough understanding of scripture, encouraging participants to confront their doubts and uncertainties. The dialogue unfolds as we tackle various theological issues, including the implications of supernatural gifts and the historical context of scriptural interpretation. By referencing specific passages, we challenge the notion that contemporary theological movements diverge from traditional interpretations. The discourse serves not only as an informative exchange but also as a clarion call to believers to ground their faith in robust biblical understanding, reinforcing the notion that apologetics is not merely about defending beliefs but actively engaging with the sacred text to illuminate its truths.

Takeaways:

• In this episode, we delve into the intricate relationship between hermeneutics and biblical interpretation, emphasizing the significance of context in scriptural analysis.
• The discussion highlights the term 'perpetual' within the biblical narrative, particularly in relation to themes of hell and divine judgment, sparking debate on its intended meaning.
• We explore the implications of spiritual gifts in the contemporary church, particularly the cessationist-versus-continuationist debate, prompting reflections on modern theological divides.
• Andrew Rappaport underscores the importance of apologetics in addressing challenging questions about faith, encouraging listeners to engage thoughtfully with their beliefs.
• The discourse navigates the historical development of the church, examining the distinctions between early Christianity and contemporary denominational practices, illustrating the evolution of doctrine over centuries.
• We conclude with a strong emphasis on the necessity of grounding faith in scripture, advocating for the ‘sola scriptura’ principle while recognizing the diverse perspectives within the Christian community.

Links referenced in this episode:

• apologeticslive.com
• westminstereffects.com

Can you show me?

Because we're going to use some hermeneutics.

Can you show me anywhere in the Old Testament where that word perpetual is not perpetual?

Because again, I understand you're appealing again.

Sure.

Any of God.

Hold on, hold on.

Wait a minute.

I thought I was going to get to have a talk here.

You asked a question and.

Hang on a second, sir, be quiet.

Okay, There you go.

I will mute you because it's not your show.

Yes, you ask the question, I'm going to give you the answer.

Genesis 6, 4.

The word olam is used referring to those who were of old Deuteronomy.

I'll get.

Just rattle off all the ones where it's used, not referring to perpetual.

Should I go on for more?

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

This is Apologetics Live to answer your questions.

Your host from Striving for Eternity Ministries, Andrew Rapaport.

We are Live Apologetics Live here to answer your most challenging questions that you have about God and the Bible.

We can answer any, any question you have, whatever it may be here, no matter how hard you think it is.

I can answer any question that you have about God in the Bible.

And if you don't believe me, just go to apologetics live.com click scroll down, click on the duck icon and you can join us and ask me your hardest question.

Just remember one thing I don't know is a perfectly good answer.

I missed the, that intro there.

That was.

I think his name was Bill.

Super Sunday schools Batman or Batman.

Sunday schools.

He taught Sunday school.

But he, he wanted to say that the word perpetual doesn't mean perpetual because, well, he didn't believe in a perpetual hell.

And so, yeah, I don't think the Bible agreed with him.

And his brilliant response to Scripture was blah, blah, blah, blah.

Oh, you gotta love it.

All right, so we are going to talk about Apologetics and I have a friend backst that decided to jump on last minute with me.

Now, I would love to say that he and I have a lot in common.

We're both musically talented.

Well, okay, at least he is Cody Feels from Westminster Effects.

How are you, sir?

Andrew.

What's up, man?

Good to see you.

Yeah.

So look, I can count 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 guitars behind you.

Yeah, those are the ones behind me.

I have four more plus a bass on the other side of the room.

So.

Yeah, and those are actually my favorite on that side.

But they're shaped funny and they won't fit in that kind of stand, so.

You'Ll have to send me a picture sometime.

So.

So you and I have gotten to know each other through Going to Fight Laugh Feast.

Yep.

And you.

You.

Last time you even picked me up and gave me a ride, which was very kind of you.

Yeah.

And I got the privilege of being on your pod.

And so I. I do have a question.

I've been wondering.

We, you know, we're in a private chat and you guys talk and I know you already know I'm pop culture illiterate.

That's true.

But I gotta ask, who is Skillet?

Because clearly I'm the only one in this group that doesn't know who Skillet is.

Yeah.

So Skillet is pretty much the largest Christian rock band on the planet at the moment.

And.

And let me grab this.

So, John Cooper, their frontman and bassist, lead vocalist, he's.

He's been very active in combating deconstructionism, wokeness and whatnot.

He's written a couple of books, done a fantastic job.

But I have with Westminster Effects, Seth Morrison, their lead guitarist, signature distortion pedal.

Okay.

James White provided the Greek in the background.

That's Codex Sinaiticus does Nerd alert.

And.

Yeah, so there you go.

Well, we, we.

We have.

We have a stalker here.

Someone who should come in here and stop stalking.

But Dead Man Walking podcast, Greg Moore says Andrew and Cody is a dangerous combo.

I think the only thing that would make it more dangerous is if Greg Moore came in here.

Yeah.

Hurry up, Greg.

Get in here.

That's what I think.

So.

And.

And Brother John, I see your question already.

I'll get to that in, in a bit.

And thanks for.

I should welcome Brother John for coming in.

He's a Canadian fellow.

I don't know what he's doing in the communist country of Canada.

Come.

Come south, my friend.

Come south.

We're a little bit less communist.

He's.

He's got a big evangelism field up there, so he's probably going to stay up there.

So before we get into the topic tonight, which is going to be about Evangelism just in general.

I, you know, I've been dealing with different topics and I realized, you know, we really didn't cover what evangelism itself is.

That'd be a good thing to do when we talk apologetics is talk Apollo what apologetics is.

And so I think I said evangelism, I meant apologetics.

But I wanna, I wanna let folks get a note to know who you are.

Oh, Greg is saying I'm listening.

While packing for a Northern Michigan hunting trip.

I'll try to think of a good question.

Love you guys.

Okay.

No excuses, Greg.

You gotta have priorities.

Well, I mean, I don't know why he packs.

I mean, he's just gonna go hang out and come back.

It's not like, you know, it's not like he's actually gonna get anything.

Right, right, right.

He's gonna get some sleep, wake up early, have some coffee, you know, go.

Up there and miss.

Yeah, yeah.

You do realize he's gonna like, he's gonna snap some picture of like a 15 point buck that he hits.

Yeah.

We will take full credit when he does.

It was because of our, our jokes dragging him on.

Yeah, but, but otherwise someone will be memed into oblivion.

Yeah.

Troy says that's a burn.

So let, let folks know a little bit about you, about Westminster Effects, if there's any folks who are.

I'm totally into guitars and music.

Yeah, no, so you had to explain to me what a pedal is.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

These things that you step on and it changes how the guitar sounds.

So.

Yeah.

I'm Cody.

I live in the Greenville, South Carolina area.

I'm a deacon at my local church.

My dad is one of our pastors, been married for 11 years.

And I own Westminster Effects for the glory of God and the tone of his people.

Everything's church history, theologically themed and all that good stuff to equip the saints for the work of sounding good effectively.

And so it's.

It's just that Westminster Effect sounds a whole lot cooler than Second London Baptist Effects.

And, and in the guitar world, it's all about sounding cool.

So there you go.

Oh, that's great.

That's great.

All right, so Greg, Greg is saying that I, I don't, I don't know that I agree with this, but he says you guys are brutal.

Does, does count.

So if he, if he doesn't shoot anything, it's because of us.

And if he does shoot anything, it's because of us.

Because of us.

Yeah.

Either way, like, he dishes it out just as much as we give it back.

Well, typically he starts and, and we just give it back.

That's true.

That's very true.

Well, let, let's, let's start.

Well, I did.

Since we did have a question come up early, I'll.

And I know that brother John sometimes has to go out and do some evangelism.

And so let me put his question up here that he had.

His question is this.

Now, this is, this is a trick question because he already knows my answer.

And so he, he must want me to explain what the Bible says to him.

It's.

It must be.

But First Corinthians 13:8.

And I don't, I don't know actually Cody's position on this.

So Cody Fields, you will have to give your own answer.

But First Corinthians 13:8 says and 8.

No, I'll go a little bit further.

Love never fails.

But where there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away.

Where there are tongues, they will cease.

If there is knowledge, it will be done away.

For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the teleos comes, the partial will be done away.

Yes, I, I used a Greek word in there because people get confused on the word perfect.

It.

That word for perfect means.

It's the teleos means complete, mature, or perfect in the sense of something that's coming to completion or maturity.

It doesn't mean absolute perfection.

So I would, when I look at this and in my evaluation of it, that teleos is scripture, so when the canon was complete, no, there was no more need for the, the prophetic gift of writing scripture or the knowledge.

Both of those are revelatory gifts or they were partial.

This says when, when we, we know in part, we prophesy in part.

But when the perfection, the maturing, the completion of something comes, what's partial is done away.

So whatever the telios is, it has to be directly tied to the fulfilling the, to the completing of both parties, prophecy and knowledge, those two being revelatory, then the completion of it would be revelation.

So you already knew that, John, but I know you just wanted to hear the truth again.

But Cody, you, you agree?

Disagree.

What are your thoughts on that?

So first I would, I would note the actual wording of the question.

Andrew you being a dispensationalist, you should have taken that literally.

So regardless of one's position on cessationism or continuationism, we.

You're right.

The answer has to be yes.

Yes, yes.

Good.

Good play, my friend.

Yes, you are absolutely right.

Got him.

Yes.

I mean, I'm a little bit of an oddball.

I don't.

And this is something I've been chewing on processing for several years.

I don't think the terms continuationism and cessationism are really all that helpful for me because I think you have to go farther in First Corinthians 13 to get the full context.

For now, we've seen a mirror dimly, but then face to face.

And I think personally that that passage is pointing toward the return of Christ, the consummation of all things.

So I don't necessarily the perfect there is scripture, but I think the better way to think about spiritual giftedness is what is absolutely necessary for the administration and functioning of a local church and what are really nice add ons.

If God decides to do something out of the ordinary.

Right.

And so can and does he still heal people?

I think, yeah, we would absolutely agree.

Maybe it's not on command like the apostles, but he heals whenever he wants.

Bingo.

The, the preaching of the word that, you know, that's a gift.

Right, but.

And that has to happen for a gathering on the Lord's day.

Right.

Stuff like that.

And so ultimately I think those, those two terms aren't all that helpful in the grand scheme.

I could be wrong.

A lot of people disagree with me.

A lot of really smart people disagree with me.

John MacArthur used to agree with you.

He agrees with me today.

Oh, wow.

I see what you did there.

But no, so, and, and partially because of what, what you said.

So let's, let's deal with the first part where you said.

And then the labels, because I think you make a really good point with the labels.

All right, so if we look at this text, you're one of the things we have to do hermeneutically, right?

We look at this, the, the whole thing.

If you look at First Corinthians 12, 13 and 14.

Let's back up even more.

The entire book is a book of correction.

The whole book?

Yeah, the whole book.

It's like you knuckleheads don't get a single thing right.

I mean, that's basically every chapter you.

Can summarize it with.

Are you serious right now?

We well, you know, since we have a stalker and we could summarize it by.

Are you Greg Moore?

Oh, no, sorry, sorry.

That's a little far for some of those things.

We'll get him to come in and comment sooner or later.

Oh, that's good.

That's good.

So.

So what I.

What did you.

You have to realize is that this is.

The whole book is a book of correcting them on.

On bad theology, on right things that they're doing wrong.

There's not a single praise, kind of, it seems, through the whole book.

I mean, like, every chapter is like, another thing you knuckleheads did wrong.

So when people say, oh, suddenly in.

In the middle verse, chapters 12, 13, 14.

Oh, that suddenly is all instructional.

And he's praising them for what they're doing.

It.

It doesn't fit.

I mean, chapter 12 is all about guys.

Love is primary.

Right?

So.

So, like, you read that, and he's constantly emphasizing love.

That tells me that it's like, you guys are not loving one another.

You're failing in the area of love.

Chapter 13.

Well, most people know that only from weddings where they.

They re.

Have the first part of that red.

When my wife and I got married, I explicitly told my pastor I didn't want.

Want First Corinthians 13.

Read.

That's.

That's my only thing.

Like, don't read that one.

Yeah, well, you know, when my daughter.

I'm gonna.

I hope I don't get in trouble for telling the story, but my daughter, when she.

She got married, she was very explicit that she did not want me doing the wedding.

And at first, I was really offended.

I'm like, I'm a pastor.

I know how to do a wedding.

She's like, dad, you.

You can't do what we want done in our wedding.

I'm like, what can I do in a wedding?

I know how to do a wedding.

Right?

And then I. I saw her wedding, and she.

She wanted to kind of surprise me a bit too, with it.

And when I saw her wedding, after the wedding, I said, you're right.

I couldn't have done that.

The.

The entire wedding.

There was.

There wasn't scriptures about love and things like that.

All of the scripture was Old Testament prophecies and New Testament fulfillments.

The entire wedding was geared at evangelizing my unsaved family.

Wow.

And had I done it, they would not have heard any of it.

They would have.

They would have assumed I was behind it all.

But that's funny.

With my daughter being behind it all, they were okay with it.

Yeah.

That Andrew guy.

Yeah.

So.

So when we look at first Corinthians 13, it again, now it's not focusing on love being primary, but what love is.

And then chapter 14, it's going to talk about the order of service and the way things should be and what we, we see.

And Troy, Troy is saying that what my daughter did, he says, praise the Lord.

That's awesome.

It was, I mean, it was so well done, Troy, that my, my sister in law, some of the guys that are on my board of directors, they were like, hey, who's, who's this person?

I said, that's my sister in law.

Like, man, every time scripture was being read from the New Testament, she was like telling the kids to quiet down real loudly.

When the kids weren't making any noise, she just was like, will you guys stop?

She was just trying to drown it out.

So it was like, clearly the point was made.

All right, so first Corinthians 13, we, when we look at 8 to 12, that's the passage that deals with this, talking about the gifts.

Now in, in chapter 12, you're seeing that the, the emphasis on love as a primary gift, that, you know, that we all have different gifts, which.

Right.

There is an issue when, and not all charismatics do this.

I've talked with brother John.

John would say that, you know, he doesn't think everyone should have all the gifts.

Not everyone should speak in tongues.

But.

So there.

Not everyone says that, but the first.

But chapter 12 clearly says we shouldn't have the same gifts.

Now you brought up the point.

And, and John brings this up as well.

He says here, similar to you, he says First Corinthians 13.

But Paul is talking about seeing Jesus face to face, not the Bible.

And honestly, I can name even.

I cannot name even once he says I can.

But I think I cannot name even one cessationist in my church history who held the view appealing to scripture.

Well, actually there's, there's many who held to that view, but I do it because of the, the just looking at it one by one.

So let's break this down.

The, the direct question is, what is the teleos, the word perfect in our Bible?

What I can see clearly is that it is tied directly to the knowledge and prophecy being partial.

So whatever it is, it has to complete the knowledge and the prophecy.

Now, the mistake I think that people make is that when you look at verses 11 and 12, you have three illustrations there and what do they illustrate?

Something coming to maturity or completion.

Okay.

Or if you want to use the word perfection, it's, it's the idea of it.

It's coming to completion.

Right.

You have a child to adulthood.

You have a mirror to face to face.

Now, the reason I, I don't think think this is speaking of Jesus is because it very clearly says, for now, I see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.

Now, the mirrors that they had in that day were not the mirrors we have today.

And I think this is why people have struggled with it, because they look in a mirror and they can see very clearly, but go take a spoon, flatten it out, and then look at it.

And that's what they would have.

Right.

You don't see clearly.

So there was a big difference between seeing in a mirror and it even says dimly.

And that's being compared to seeing face to face.

So you have childhood compared to adulthood, maturity, seeing dimly versus seeing clearly, completion or maturity.

And then the last one that he says is for I know in part, but then I will know as I'm fully known.

Again, it's the idea of partial to completion.

So you have three different ways he illustrates the very meaning of the word telios.

And so you never take, I mean just a rule of interpretation, you do not take the illustration and, and make it the main point.

The it's.

What does it illustrate?

And what this was illustrating is the main thing of, of the completion.

Now why is it future?

Well, because it hasn't been completed yet.

He's saying when the teleas comes, that's future.

So where we're looking dimly, we'll then see clearly where we're acting, as it were as a child in our thinking now, will be complete as it.

As an adult, then as we partially know, we'll fully know.

But all of that has to do with the idea of something coming to complete completion.

The only question though is what is the teleas?

Right.

And so the teleas has to be tied to the prophecy and knowledge.

So let me, let me throw you a big curveball.

Sure.

Just because this came to mind.

So in Doug Wilson's commentary on Revelation, when the man comes around, which he argues for a partial preterist view, he says that Revelation 21, particularly with the new Jerusalem being labeled the Bride.

So the new Jerusalem is the Bride of Christ, the church.

Revelation 21 is describing the Bride of Christ making her way down the aisle in history.

And so if the church is making her way down the aisle, then that's some maturity there as well.

So I think if we're talking maturity and there's some kind of gradualness to it.

Not only does that lend itself to a more continuationist perspective, it also lends itself to post millennialism, where we get in First Corinthians 15.

Well, see, but he starts with the post millennialism and then reads it back in.

But you know that it's, it can't like, so there's, there's.

I have a paper if, if anyone wants on at Striving Fraternity.

If you look up first Corinthians 13, just put that in the search.

I think it's, I think the other, I think it's titled what does the word perfect mean?

If you search for that.

But basically I give.

There's about seven different views.

It could be, as John is saying or you were saying, and I think Brother John holds too is it could be the second coming of Christ.

It could be the church being fully developed.

I do struggle with that only because I don't see how that's tied to knowledge and prophecy.

Right.

The, the coming of Christ.

The reason people mostly say that it's speaking of Christ is because they see the idea of seeing face to face as being literal instead of a, instead of an illustration.

And the note, as I'm fully known, they say, well, I'm only going to know fully when I'm in heaven.

And so therefore it really wouldn't be the second coming, it'd be the moment we die.

Right.

Because I wouldn't go with that one.

Yeah, but that is one that many hold to.

Yeah, go ahead.

Yeah.

I think one of the things that gets people stripped up here as well is a lot of times the extremes in the argument are all that's presented.

And so you've got like the abuses of Pentecostalism, charismatic theology, and then you've got like the rigidly cessationist guys where it's, where there's, there's only like four of them.

But there are guys out there there who say that there are no gifts of the Spirit at all now.

And, and that's silly.

And so I think taking a more down the middle approach of yes, God gifts people.

Now how does he gift people?

And then getting our terms correct helps with all of that because I don't think the gift of tongues is the gift of saying hakuna matata on repeat.

Right.

Like, I don't think it's a personal prayer language.

I think it's actual human languages and furthering the spread of the gospel.

So I think when you get those straight, I think that's I think that starts to inform your understanding of how the rest of it should work anyway.

Yeah, I think that we have, there's rules to interpretation, right.

And we have to apply those.

Now you and I would apply them a bit differently, right.

As a dispensationalist versus someone who is a covenant, you know, covenant theology.

But there, there we do have to recognize that we're going to come to things differently.

Right.

But we, you know, that's why I, I think the mistake many make though is to take the illustration and make that literal.

And we don't do that with illustration.

Right.

I mean no one thinks that, you know, no one takes the, the, the parable of the sower, the seeds and says, well, Jesus was like literally throwing seeds and, and that's produces the.

You know how we get saved.

When you evangelize on a college campus, you have to take bird seed and throw it at people.

Yeah.

That's how you do it.

Right.

That would be fun.

We could.

So okay, so Brother John and we'll.

We'll finish this up and then get to.

I think.

I think Dead Man Walking had another comment.

But he says, can you name one reformer who taught First Corinthians 13 is the Bible?

And, and then he said so no words of wisdom or knowledge since John died.

Notice I didn't say since John died, but before I get to a list, Troy Dickinson said there's plenty of reformed commentators that held to this passage speaks of the, of the, of the knowledge.

John Gill, Jameson Foster Brown, Matthew Henry.

So th.

Those are a few.

Let me give some that I, I quickly looked up some Jonathan Edwards, John Owens supposedly.

And I'm going to say that this is, this is from Chat GPT.

So we know it could lie, but we'll have to check.

You know, we have.

I did tell it to check its sources, but I forgot to tell it to cite the sources so I'd have to look it up.

But they, they, they do provide some of the, some of the quotes so we could check.

But supposedly Jonathan Edwards, John Owens, Thomas mathen, Charles Hodge, B.B.

warfield, Louis Schaefer Sperry, Charles Ryrie.

That one I think I know.

Dwight Pentecost, Robert L. Thomas.

Well, Robert L. Thomas was a professor of Greek at Master's University, Master's Seminary.

I wouldn't be surprised he holds that.

Now I like this one one.

Some King James only independent Bible teachers.

And I only I, I only know one name on here, Peter Ruckman.

And I wouldn't hold him.

So I, I do like that, that is funny.

You gotta, you gotta like that in.

Fantastic company at that point, right?

Hey, I'm not gonna just give the names where it's, you know, we're just, it makes it look good.

But I, you know, I'm saying that say, though I would have to check the, the citations on, on all those to, to see if that's, that's actually valid.

And as, as Greg was trying to pack.

So he says he, he did post a, a question.

He says, what are your thoughts on Luther's writings stating that the Jews of Jesus day were not in fact Jewish, but Edomites having been descendants of Isaac and not Jacob where Jesus was the true.

Let's put the next part of it up.

Jesus.

G. So whereas Jesus was in fact a true.

As having been descended from Jacob and the true house of Israel.

Of course he went there.

Of course he did.

Thank you, Greg.

Yeah, so I, I actually, so I have to be honest, I have not read a lot of Luther to.

On the issue of, of his view on the Jewish people at the time.

I, I read a little bit and it seemed most of his views were more political in nature.

Right.

And not really theological so much.

And so the argument that he made that if he made that argument, and I'm, I'm just not sure, but if he made the argument, I, I think that I'm looking at that and saying, is he, is he holding to a view that he sees these people in, you know, that politically he has an issue.

And then because of that, he's starting to read in a theological view.

Because I think we see this today, Cody.

We see people today who take a position of covenant theology, see that the church is Israel and then take that to say, well, the Israel that exists today is not Israel.

Okay, so now there actually was a guy that told me that the people, people there are, are not Israel.

I said, it's, it's not this.

There's.

There's no state of Israel today.

He goes, no, like, then what are the people that live in a state in that area that's called Israel?

Right?

I mean, it's like now, yes, anyone can claim, okay, I, I can set up a state and say this is Israel.

Does it make it.

Yeah, I think a lot of it is a. I do think there's a struggle with the way we use words Israel.

There's a spiritual connotation to Israel.

There's a national connotation to Israel.

There's, there's, you know, there is a country or state, you know, nation of Israel.

There's also a people of Israel.

Then there's this, the spiritual Israel.

Right.

I think we dealt with some of this on, on your podcast when you had me on the Westminster Effects.

Yeah, some what.

Which, by the way, I loved you called it.

Sound like you know how to fight or something like that.

Fighting fair, I think.

Fighting fair, yes.

Nobody had bloody noses after that one, we'll say that.

But.

But what?

I think one of the things that trips people up is that we, we interchange Israel and Jewish so often, and we, and we don't grasp often where the term Jew came from.

I said that a little harshly, like, yes, I'm not, I'm not buddies with Nick Fuentes, I'll say that.

But.

But when, when Abraham's, When Abraham was originally called by God, his descendants were not called Jews, they were Hebrews.

Right.

And then on down you get Israelites, and then it's only after the kingdom splits that you get Jews because the northern, what was it, eight and a half tribes or so were, were mass deported.

Yeah.

Trump was previously incarnate as a Babylonian king deported them all.

And they were lost to history for all intents and purposes.

And, and that's where you get new.

Right.

And so that's, that's part of the, the fight over the dictionary with what a Jew is, what an Israelite is and all that kind of stuff.

So Maba make Babylon great again.

Is that.

That'S what our R2K friends.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

So actually the, the word Hebrew, we, we think from what we've looked, you know, from what archaeologists have studied and people research it, the word Hebrew.

Well, so the word Israel we have from scripture, right?

You have, you have God changing Jacob's name to, to Israel and so his, so his descendants become Israelites.

Right?

Now.

Prior to that, they were called Hebrew because what we, what it seems is when Abraham was wandering around on his way to Canaan, he went to an area that's where there was a similar language.

And the language would be Hebrew.

It actually wouldn't have been.

It would have been herbu.

It would have been close to that Is.

Is.

And so the idea that, you know, Abraham probably was called a Hebrew because of the language.

Right.

The Israelites are called Israelites coming from Jacob because God changed his name.

I don't know whether.

I think you're probably right.

I haven't, I have never researched this part, but that the word Jew or, or Jewish or Judy, Judaism would come from Judah because that there was a split in the kingdom.

So the northern Tribes were called Israelites, and the southern tribe, which was mostly Judah, were called, you know, Jewish.

I could see that, you know.

Yeah, I think, I think it pops up, I think it originally pops up somewhere around second Kings.

I could be wrong.

It's either that or like Ezekiel, but it's, it's deeper into the Old, into the Old Testament than, you know, like Exodus or Joshua or something like that.

So what.

One interesting thing, because I can't say you're my favorite Jew because my wife is part Jew, but hold on.

The question is, was her mother Jewish?

I don't, I don't remember.

But she's part Ashkenazi Jew.

I don't.

Yes.

Judaism is the only religion passed on from the mother to the child.

Interesting.

But.

So here's, here's the really funny thing though is she's part Jewish, but she also has a, like a great uncle who is like fourth or fifth in line to Hitler in the ss.

So her, her sense of humor is pretty dark.

But.

But when it comes time to pay reparations, she's going to just pay herself and call it even.

Yeah, but, but you are my favorite dispensationalist.

And so you, you actually do.

You don't see this in most pop.

Dispensationalism is.

You actually do recognize the difference between spiritual Israel, physical Israel, ethnic Israel.

A lot of, A lot of dispensationalists just flatten that out.

And, and what you're doing actually helps the conversation between dispensationalists and covenantalists where you can actually find a little bit of common ground in there.

Well, thank you for that.

Yeah, I mean, that's what I'm trying.

I am partially because I'm sick of all the tribalism that we have because it's just.

We're dividing, dividing.

But if we talk past each other, you know, I, I find that we have a lot more agreement in the different camps than we disagree.

It's just we're often talking past one another.

That's so true.

That.

And that's kind of what I was getting at earlier with the continuationism versus cessationism definitions is so often we're just talking past each other, not actually like listening, letting each other use terms as we're using them.

Yeah, because as you brought out the, the and I, we didn't get back to the terminology because you, you brought a good point even when you were describing.

I clearly, as a cessationist, believe that God can heal.

But as you said, it's just, I Don't believe God gives the gift of healing where you can, you can heal on command.

Sure.

Right.

It's, it's only these miraculous gifts that somehow people are like, well, those are different than all the other gifts.

But then they want to say, but they continue because all the other gifts continue.

But it's like, if they continue because the other gifts continue, then they should be like every other gift where you can do it on command.

Right.

And we seem to see that.

But at the same time, it still has to be fueled by the spirit.

Right.

So there are definitely times when I lead my small group Bible study where we get in the car and I'm just like, what was that?

And then my wife was like, that was really good.

And I'm like, were you in the same Bible study as I was?

Because that I felt herky jerky and just stumbled over questions and whatever.

And then there's times where I feel like I absolutely nailed it.

And it's like, that was okay.

Oh, I've had times, I've had times where I, I preached and I'm like, where did that come from?

Like, I, I, I.

It wasn't in my notes.

And, and I remember there's one specific message where I said something.

I'm like, I, I literally want to stop preaching and write it down.

And I was like, well, it's being recorded.

I'll get it from there.

And it wasn't recorded.

So, so, yeah, I'll throw this up for now.

We'll see if he comes in.

But destroyer of Protestant heresy says, what faith are you defending?

The true faith of Scripture, not that of the Catholic Church.

That's the heresy.

Or is it Eastern Orthodoxy?

Orthodoxy, yeah, either one.

But if it's, if either one, they base it off of a church, not the Bible there where we would be sola scriptura.

They would be sola ecclesiastica.

So, yeah, but he can come in and discuss it.

One, one thing.

I've been perusing this.

It's, this is one of my favorite books.

It's a dictionary of early Christian beliefs that, and so it's, it's just.

So I flopped open to Israel of God.

And you've got stuff from Justin Martyr and from.

Oh, goodness, this entire first page is Justin Martyr.

Second Clement, even though we know that's not actually Clement, but Irenaeus and so on.

And so one, this is my, one of my favorite things because you can just find what did the early church guys think about X?

And then you can obviously go back, check the context and Stuff like that.

And by the way, they agree with me.

Oh, yeah.

I'm not surprised.

Wait, let me.

What.

What is that?

Give that again.

The Dictionary of what?

Yeah, a Dictionary of Early Christian beliefs.

A reference guide to more than 700 topics discussed by the early church fathers.

The editor is David W. Burcott.

Yeah.

Okay.

And so, I mean, you've got Israel of God, you've got pagan gods, you've got the Depravity of Man and Book of Daniel, like, just all kind of stuff.

And it's been.

It's been really helpful for me.

All right, so you looked up Israel.

Yeah, yeah.

So we.

Yeah, I just pulled it up.

By the.

By the way, this character.

Where.

Where was it?

He.

He says, I'm not gonna just.

I won't read all of this because I don't use foul language.

But he says Protestant faith, the destroyer of Protestant heresy, says Protestant faith, question mark.

I don't think I said that we're Protestant faith.

Did I said the faith of the Bible?

Because I'm not a. I. I'm not really protesting.

I'm a dispensational, so it'd be a separatist.

So he says that's true.

Protestant Protestantism has many faiths.

And the Pentecostal faith, the evangelical faith, the Mormon faith, the Baptist faith, etc.

Can you leave that up?

Can you leave that up?

Yeah, yeah.

So this is what so many, I guess, whether he's Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodox guys get wrong is scratch Mormon, because that's a cult.

Everyone knows it's a cult.

But when you start talking about Baptists, Pentecostals, Evangelicals.

Actually Orthodox Methodists, Presbyterians, Anglicans who still believe the Bible and.

And whatnot.

It's not different faiths.

It's just different takes on the same faith.

Just like how I'm covenantal, you're dispensational.

We still agree on 95% of stuff.

It's just the stuff where I'm right that you disagree with.

Yeah, but.

But we would both see that we're.

That we're both saved by Christ, by the same faith that saves us.

That.

That is Even.

Even Brother John up there in Canada, who has the questions about the.

The gifts.

Yeah.

I believe he's saved.

Yeah.

Even if his family is good friends with, you know, Kenneth Copeland and, you.

Know, it even could be that this guy at.

Destroyer of Protestant heresy.

So edgy.

It could even be that he's saved because we're saved by.

By grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

We're not saved by the perfect understanding of those doctrines.

Correct.

And so I would destroyer of Protestant heresy.

I would back off of the arrogance a smidge.

Well, I would, I would say come on in, apologize live dot com.

You are more than welcome to join and challenge us.

I don't mind.

I love a good challenge.

So.

But yeah, no, you bring up a really valid point because the fact is is that when we look at, when we look at what we hold to, there's only two religions in the entire world and that's it.

Yeah.

There's man made religion and there's divine religion.

And you and I may have different ideas of how to, how to work things out in as far as scripture, but the reality is, is that we both believe that God, God does the work of salvation, not by works.

And every man made religion, Roman Catholicism, Islam, like if he wants to throw in all these things and say they're all different faiths, well then you know, Catholicism, Islam, modern Judaism, which I call Rabbinic Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, they're all works based salvation.

You get right with God by do you can have faith plus works.

But they'll say you have to do works.

And so because of that it's a man made religion because they always put human effort in and diminish God's effort.

Have you ever seen the, the YouTube channel is heliocentric.

It's a guy's music project but it's his main thing that he does is the, the atheist church audit.

Have you ever seen that guy?

No.

So he, he was in, let's see, he went to the fire School of Ministry, so Dr. Michael Brown's school in the Charlotte area.

And I want to say he went to Wheaton and it was while he was at Wheaton that he deconstructed, lost his faith.

But he still, he still somehow finds religion attractive.

And so he'll go to different churches in his area or like farther out, whether it's Anglican or mega church or he actually visited Catherine Crick's quote unquote church.

But he went to his statewide Jehovah's Witness convention.

It was like the three day thing in the Raleigh Durham area.

And at one point he got a little more candid with some people he was talking to and he said what's actually beautiful about this, about this thing that you believe?

And they said, well we're not falling apart like the rest of the world.

And that's, that's about all they could do is we have a better life kind of.

Yeah.

As opposed to the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ, the second person of the triune God who's put his glory on this.

Right.

And yeah, something like what we would say.

And so even that guy recognizes there's something entirely different about like reformed theology or even like general evangelicalism as compared to pure works based trash.

Yeah, well he, he says this since we're saying there's you and I would have the same faith.

He says if there's no difference in faith then one, why even leave the Catholic Church if it's the same faith?

Well, okay, I'm going to leave this up so we can go through this.

He says if there's no difference in faith then why leave the Catholic Church?

Well, actually we didn't leave the Catholic Church.

We.

But Protestants left the Roman Catholic Church.

Right, exactly.

Because Catholic just means universal.

And so the Roman Catholic Church wouldn't be part of the Catholic Church because they have a different gospel.

Galatians, the whole book of Galatians talks about this.

When you add works to the gospel, you have a gospel that is anathema.

That's what scripture says.

And I, I believe that Roman Catholics can be saved, but it's in spite of the gospel that Rome preaches.

Right.

So the Roman Catholic Church absolutely preaches a false gospel, but I believe that there are absolutely Roman Catholics who are saved in spite of that.

But, but even looking, looking at his question, his question doesn't even recognize history in the first place because like Pentecostalism didn't come out of Rome.

Right?

Correct.

Like you have, you have.

No, but it did go back, it did go into Rome.

Yeah, they're, they're now, they're now copying the Pentecostal movement.

Right?

That's true.

Where you've definitely got like the charismatic movement infiltrating practically everything if we're honest.

But that's neither here nor there.

It's not different faiths.

Like let's not pretend that the Roman Catholic Church is all uniform.

When you've got, when you've got like active homosexuals, unrepentant homosexuals being confirmed in the Roman Catholic Church by liberal priests on one hand and then you've got your South American Mary Mariology or Mariolo tree is what I'm trying to say.

The over emphasis on Mary in South America and then you've got like all kinds of different sects within Roman Catholicism.

It's not uniform at all.

No, look, anyone that's, that's, has anybody that has watched this show historically knows that we've had bunches of what's Called I mispronounce.

I can't properly pronounce it, but set of a cantists, which are people that believe that ever since Vatican ii, the Church is not the church.

Right.

So they're protesting too.

Yeah.

Right.

And, and what someone that would be most well known in that is Mel Gibson, who doesn't think the Pope is Catholic.

Oh, I didn't realize that.

Yeah, I didn't know that he was in that group.

That's interesting.

Okay, so, and this is the one thing I love about the show.

You and I had a plan, right?

I, I of talking about what is apologetics.

We may never get there.

And that's fine.

We, we.

The show notes will be for next week.

All right, so, and, and maybe, you know, as destroyer of Protestant heresy, you're more than welcome to going to apologetics live.com and, and join us in, in the discussion.

And in fact, if you, if you feel, hey, you want more time, you know, you can email me, just, you know, email, you know, the ministry at Apollo, at Striving Fraternity.

I'll let you on for two hours.

We'll make you a special guest and let you make your case.

So have no problem doing that.

If you want to email me, just in email.

Show at SFE Bible.

So SFE stands for Striving for Eternity.

So in.

So show@sfe.bible.

all right, now here's his question.

Answer me this.

Ephesians 3:20-21.

To him be the glory in the church by Jesus Christ to all generations, forever and ever.

Amen.

What Protestant sect is this?

All right, all of them.

Yeah, so let me back up, because he mentions verse 20, but he didn't quote that.

So let's look at this.

First off, the focus is not on the church, it's on Christ.

Yep.

Okay, so that's the first thing, right?

And you know, this is where, you know, we, we have to look at how, what scripture actually says.

And so the issue here also you have to recognize is what does the word ecclesia mean in the time this was written?

Now, the word ecclesia, the first time that we see the word ecclesiastical in history happens to be in Ephesus.

And it was the, it referred to the gathering together for a vote.

Okay, so that's what ecclesia would mean it's.

It's the gathering together Y.

It has through.

And if anyone wants you can get my book what do we Believe?

There's.

I have a whole chapter in there on what is the Church.

And I explain how that word has changed historically.

Okay.

And so.

And I hope we.

We're going to get soon to Dave V. His comments.

They'll be.

They'll be fun.

The.

But what we have is you.

You have to see it.

This word is.

Is the idea of church is a gathering.

It is not what the Roman Catholic Church has become.

Okay.

And so the Catholic.

The Roman Catholic Church that we think of today really didn't exist until after about a thousand A.D. it was really Pope Innocence II that.

That gave us all the things they hold to today.

So they try to go, oh, we go all the way back.

No, the Roman Catholic Church was an offshoot from Christianity.

The earliest seeds of it were when you had a Roman emperor that just decided everyone's Christian in the nation.

And you had a whole bunch of unbelievers that started becoming pastors and bishops.

They started making bishops and a hierarchy things that didn't exist in the Scripture.

And they started creating all that to give themselves more authority over each other.

That's what men do.

And so when you, they.

They didn't believe the real Bible Bible, they believed in the church.

And so when you see, when a Catholic sees this word Church, they're thinking the focus is on the glory of the Church.

When it's the glory of Christ, the focus is all wrong.

What this is saying is to Christ, to him be the glory in the church.

So he glorifies himself in the church.

Church.

So when the church does well, that's because Christ is working through the church.

The other way this can be interpreted is that he receives glory from the Church.

There's two different ways that I've seen this explained.

I tend to think because of the word.

The usage, you know, here of the word for in.

I think that it's more He's.

He gets his.

He's glorified when he is working through the church.

Yeah, that's entirely reasonable.

But again, the, the emphasis is Christ.

Particularly like the.

When.

When Paul takes this.

He takes a praise break right in the middle of this letter.

Now, to him who is able, right.

According to the power that works within us.

That power being the Holy Spirit.

Right.

The third person of the Trinity to him, to this God be the glory in the Church, in Christ Jesus.

Right.

Well, he's emphasizing.

He's rehearsing the gospel there is all he's doing.

Yeah.

And the fact that it's going to reverberate through all generations until he comes back, it's not that difficult.

This is.

This is all about the glory of God and the joy of his people, which is literally every Protestant denomination.

Yeah.

Let me bring in Mr. Aaron Brewster.

Welcome.

Hey, you were.

I'm here.

You're here.

Finally made it.

It's been a while.

You just had to go up to New York and do some preaching.

And Aaron Brewster is one of our speakers at Striving Fraternity.

He is the host of, well, two podcasts, but the one that he's actively doing now is the Truth Love Parent.

But I got to tell you something, Aaron, I'm going to do.

I was going to.

I was supposed to call you and tell you this, but I might as well do it live.

So you came to our church.

You came to the.

To our church to speak to the church I attend, and we.

And now they've church disciplined you out of the church?

No, not yet.

But they would do that for me, not for you.

That's next week.

Yeah, but we.

I had a woman that came up to me at church and said, you know, I've been listening to Aaron's podcast on the celebration of God, and I just love it.

It has caused me to.

To look at every day and.

And see how, you know, God working in, like, every day is a day of celebration.

So that's exciting.

That's really cool.

Thank you for sharing that.

Yeah.

Okay, so the.

I just.

I love it.

But this.

It's just so funny to say his name, but.

Destroyer of Protestant heresy.

He says, you Protestants don't accept James 2:24.

A person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Now here's the thing that he does again.

It's.

It's the same as the before, but not exactly.

He.

He.

He takes things out of context.

Context.

No, I don't know if he, he or she.

I should be fair.

I don't know.

I mean, I can't tell from the name destroyer of Protestant heresy if it's male or female.

Arguing like a woman.

Oh, oh, that's.

That's offensive to everybody.

I do not end that statement.

That's one, Cody.

That.

Whether.

Whether male or female.

Yeah, so.

So the.

The.

This whole section, I mean, you have to understand something.

The Bible didn't come with chapter breaks and verses.

That was something that was added in centuries later, and it was to help us find things quicker.

However, if you want to get the context.

Because, destroyer of Protestant heresy, I'm sure you don't like being taken out of context.

God doesn't like it either.

And so we don't want to take him out of context.

And so if we're going to look at the context, it starts in verse 14, where he asks the question, what use is it, my brother brethren, if someone says he has faith but has no works, can that faith save him?

So the question he's asking is, he's got someone who claims to be that they have faith, but they don't have the works that go along with faith.

So the question he's asking is, can that faith save him?

The answer to the question is no, that faith can't save him.

And so that's the whole emphasis of what he's saying all the way down to 24.

So the problem you have with this is he's talking about what happens after regeneration, and you're talking about using it for regeneration.

Two different things.

Regeneration is what happens in how we get right with God.

That moment we go from being an enemy of God to a child of God.

We go from being an enemy to being justified that moment in time, that is regeneration.

Sanctification comes after that.

Sanctification has works.

And that's what James is talking about, the works of sanctification.

There should be works after someone's regenerated, and if they don't have those works, but they say they're saved you, does that kind of faith save them?

No.

And that is what.

What the rest of this goes on to say.

Because he says, if a brother or sister is without clothing or in need of daily food, and one of you says, go in peace and be warmed and filled, and yet you do not give him what is necessary for the body, what use is that?

He's not saying it saves them, he's saying that this is the behavior of someone who is.

Who does have faith.

They would do these things.

Verse 17.

Even so, if it has no works, the faith is dead by itself.

But someone may say, but someone.

But someone may say, may well say, you have faith and I have works.

Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

In other words, how do you know someone has faith by the works?

And that's consistent with the entire book of James.

The entire book of James is, is asking the question of what is genuine faith.

And he gives a, like 13 different ways of testing that.

So Protestant destroyer, Protestant heresy, you could say Protestantism is a joke.

And it's you could say it's a man made religion.

The difference is we get all of our doctrines from scripture alone and you get all of your doctrine from the church the a bunch of men alone.

Because you cannot interpret the Bible on your own.

You need your church to tell you the meaning of the Bible.

So if that means that the scripture is not your final authority, what is your final authority is your church because you need the church to interpret the scripture.

Therefore it is a higher authority than Scripture itself.

I think we should start calling him DOTH for the acronym of destroyer of Protestant heresy.

And we can doff our metaphorical hats to his terrible arguments.

Yeah, so let me.

There were some great comments or questions from someone else and I, I actually I do have to.

I, I should correct something.

Where was it from?

Brother John?

I said something wrong.

He said because I said he was family friends with Kenneth Hagen.

He says Kenneth Copeland is actually a family friend of ours and so are the Hagans.

I, I still expose their false teachings on my YouTube channel with @ great personal costs.

So I got that wrong and I will always try to correct when I'm wrong.

He did say I was friends with Kosti Hinn when I was a kid.

Been to his house and my mom taught his taught children's church at Henry Hinn's church.

That's Benny Hinn's church.

Henry Hinn is Benny's brother.

See, I know Costi now, but I don't know that counts much.

You were talking when your childhood.

So David, David V. Says the fact that people are born disabled should totally destroy the belief that your God is loving, all powerful and infallible.

Well, I could say this.

I like that one.

Yeah, I'm sure we're all gonna enjoy this one.

But I. I'll say this.

Do.

Do you believe in love?

Because if you do, God must exist.

If God doesn't exist, we're nothing but a bag of chemical reactions.

We can't produce anything immaterial like love.

So the fact that you want to identify that God is love is.

Then there should be something of love.

You're requiring God to exist first.

Aaron, I'm sure you're going to want to have something to say on this one for sure.

Well so in all fairness, just to put it, and this is generally common knowledge, something that we are open about.

My wife, she wouldn't fall under the category of disabled way that a lot of people think.

Right.

She's not in a wheelchair at this precise moment, but she does have a genetic disorder called Ehlers Danlos syndrome, that is a connective tissue disorder that affects her from her head to her toes and everything in between.

She is disabled.

She has a handicap sticker on car.

And there are a lot of ways that her world daily, moment by moment, is affected in ways that most of us who have good health wouldn't even begin to understand.

And I bring her into this because she is a Christian.

She.

Is faithfully trying to learn how to glorify God in her disability as well as obviously in every other area of life.

And in no way, shape, or form does she blame God.

Has she ever considered the fact that God isn't loving or that he isn't all powerful, that he isn't infallible?

And I think one of the reasons for this, and I think, to be honest, we haven't even spoken about this because it's not something that comes up that she's sitting there thinking about day in and day out.

One of the things I think, when people make statements like this, I think to myself, are they parents?

Like, do they have kids?

Right.

And I think that because history has taught us over and over and over again that sometimes the most loving thing that you can do for your children is to let them fail.

Now, I'm making an equivalence between what I'm saying here, letting people fail, and someone being born with a disability.

I'm gonna put this together in a second.

You'll see where I'm going.

This idea that because I love somebody, I need to create a bubble around them, that they are only ever happy.

They never encounter anything that is even remotely uncomfortable.

Right?

Even we humans recognize the fact that that type of parenting is bad.

That type of parenting, a lot of significant problems in the young people as they grow.

So from a purely human perspective, sometimes the only people capable of loving that kid, their own parents.

What you said doesn't even apply from a human perspective.

I am a loving parent who desperately wants my children's best.

And sometimes what is best for them is to do hard, uncomfortable work.

Sometimes what is best for them is to receive the consequences of the choices that they have made.

That way they can learn.

That way they can change.

Right?

So when someone makes a statement like this, you're denying some of the most basic, fundamental.

Maybe this person is a parent, and maybe you're the type of parent who only ever tries to shelter your child and you don't see any value in consequence.

And trust me, those people are out there.

They're called leftists, they're called liberals, they're called Lots of different things.

But we see our world is testament to the fact that that type of parenting is really, really bad.

It creates a terrible society.

Right.

Because people never hold responsible for their choices.

People never learn from them.

So I say all of that to get to this point that someone born.

The scriptures are very clear that that person was not born disabled because of a sin on their part.

Jesus actually told his disciples that that person, speaking of a man who was born blind, that person was born blind so that God's glory could be revealed in this person's life.

Specifically in life.

The man Jesus was talking about, because God.

Jesus was going to heal this man and he was going to receive the glory for that.

People were going to know the Messiah because of that.

But this man was born blind.

He was.

He was blind for decades before Jesus healed.

That was part of God's plan.

So God, infinitely better than a parent with their child, recognizes the fact that he's created.

Okay, so I'm gonna.

You're.

We're trying to let your audio go as much as it could, but now, now your camera went off, so your.

Your audio is really choppy.

Aaron, if you can hear us.

So I am so sorry.

Yeah, so I did not know that.

I really apologize.

Yeah, now it's good.

But it seems whenever you.

When you were talking, it wasn't.

No, it's still saying.

I'm still getting a message saying it's.

It's bad Internet.

All right, so.

So Cody, what do you think?

You.

You.

You want to respond to this one or.

I mean, we got some more we can't to respond to?

Yeah, I mean, he says the fact that people are born disabled should.

To totally destroy the belief that basically God is a thing at all.

Okay, so, I mean, so we.

So then we live in a meaningless, cruel universe.

Right?

And in that case, who cares?

Like, the.

The only logical conclusion to that is nihilism.

And so it's like there's.

There's just no point in even having a discussion at that point.

Is if every is.

If everything's meaningless, then this conversation is meaningless.

And even him saying that's meaningless.

So he doesn't even need to say that.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, the, the idea that it.

What it shows and, and this is what many professing atheists have is they want to be God.

And what they're.

What they end up doing is saying, well, if.

If God exists, he has to give me everything I want.

What does that sound like a little spoiled child?

Right?

Yeah.

And well, God loves the.

If God's gonna love.

He's got to make everything perfect for me.

Well, the world doesn't arrive around you.

Sorry.

It revolves around me.

Yeah, I mean, but, but that's, you know, and, and you'll see some of the.

Let's see.

I, we got a bunch of other comments that had come in.

Now let's see, where was it Landon said that I'm referring to me.

I'm conflating atheism with strict materialism and physicalism.

Well, atheism is the belief that God does not exist, so that only there, there is.

You know, you might want to say agnosticism, you don't know.

But if you deny, if you deny God existing, then it's, it's chemical reactions that brought about life.

It's chemicals that everything's a chemical reaction.

You don't have an immaterial world.

So now could, could he be, just for the sake of clarity, Landon, are you advocating then a non theistic spiritualism then?

Which, which is contradictory, but.

Well, you mean someone that believes in, in a spiritual realm, in a God, but not sure which God?

Is that what you're asking?

Not so much that it's, it's kind of like the, the, the Buddhist thing, right?

Like they don't believe in a personal God.

It's just kind of this ethereal thing.

Right.

So you can make a case that Buddhism is technically non theistic.

So I, I guess he could be arguing then that not believing in a personal God could still lead to some kind of belief in spiritual things.

And I guess that's where we would get things like certain, certain schools of mediums and stuff like that.

Well, he says naturalism can include abstraction, abstracts and consciousness.

The bag of chemicals trope is a strawman.

And I don't, I don't think it's a straw man because of the fact that if there is no God, how did everything come about?

It's chemical reactions.

Now if you're going to say, well, it's the natural world, you still have to account for how the natural world came about.

How did we get a consciousness?

It has to come from an immaterial source, and that's God.

He's also trying to argue out of both sides of his mouth.

Is, does naturalism result in consciousness or does atheism not necessarily lead to naturalism?

Like pick, pick Elaine, my guy.

Yeah.

And Lady Landon, you are more than welcome to come to apologexlive.com scroll down to the duck icon and join us.

Earlier he had said this the way Protestants And Catholics disagree so strongly.

Seems like a decent argument against Christianity as a whole.

I'm an atheist and.

No, you're not an atheist.

You're someone who suppresses the truth and unrighteousness.

That's what God says, not me.

God says in Romans chapter one that you know that, that God exists.

He's given evident, he's made it evident to you.

You just, just suppress that truth in unrighteousness.

But you might want to make excuses like oh look, these Catholics and, and, and Christians disagree so strongly and therefore, you know, I should just reject the whole thing.

Well some people say that two plus two equals five and some will say two plus two equals four.

You're going to throw all of math out because, or someone's wrong.

He should probably just leave America if he's American because the Democrats and the Republicans both interpret the Constitution differently.

That's right.

And it's as if atheists have never disagreed.

Right.

Like well he's pointing out Stalinism like what are we doing here?

He just pointed out the difference with national naturalism versus you know, strict physicalism.

Right.

So now we should throw some, some comments from Mr. Greg Moore.

He, he had some comments for our friend.

Catholic unity of dogma is the biggest lie ever perpetrated in any religion ever.

Because he said, because you know, our duff friend is saying that gotta use it, you know that we, you know, there's oh, all these divisions but you have divisions within the, the Catholic Roman Catholic Church.

So now Davey was made the comment saying every, everything that everyone preaches is man made a coping mechanism.

So no, that's actually not true.

I mean I, I'm not going to disagree that there is a lot of people who believe in a religious system because it's a coping mechanism for him.

That's true.

Yep.

And there's a lot of people that use religion and teach man made things.

That's true.

Yep.

I'm not going to disagree with it.

It's when he says all of them, everything.

Well that's not true.

Right.

So now it could be he just said it without.

I, I try to give the benefit doubt that he said it because he's, you know, he's just seeing it as all but not taking it literally is all.

So let's see what are some of the other comments we have?

Oh what Brother John did say this.

So this is a nice thing.

This is the previous one.

He said if I, if I had a dollar for every time I heard a cessationist say unless you clear out the Entire hospital.

Your spiritual gift isn't real.

I'd be rich by now.

Yeah, I know, but the, the reason we say this, John, is this the difference between a gift and the reality.

The gift of healing means you can heal everyone on command.

Like I can teach if I have the gift of teaching.

If I have mercy, I can have show mercy on command.

I can do that because that's, that's giftedness where when you go to the hospital, you should be able to empty it out.

Then the fact that God heals well, that's not me healing.

That's not because God gave me a gift.

That's the difference.

When you see that difference, then you'll start to understand what's wrong with the charismatic movement because they argue it's the gift.

Landon asked this question earlier and this was his first question and I didn't know his background.

So now that he professes to be an atheist, I'll enjoy answering.

He says, do you have a favorite apologetic argument?

Simply put, the argument, the argument would be that that argument proves God exists.

When you ask the question, Landon, of my favorite apologetic argument, it is the fact that you just use things that are immaterial, universal and absolute.

Like the laws of logic, knowledge, truth, morality, your ability to reason.

All of those things are immaterial, absolute and universal and come from an immaterial, absolute, universal source, God.

So even when you ask that, you're proving God exists.

This is why the psalmist in both Psalm 14 and 53 says the fool says in his heart there is no God.

Because to deny God is to use your God given ability to reason, to reason that God does not exist.

That is foolishness.

So that would be my favorite argument.

I guess I don't know.

You, Cody, you have, you have a favorite apologetic argument.

The argument from Beauty always rings for me personally.

The fact that we can actually find things and ideas and whatever beautiful and in a materialistic world and even in a, in a unitarian world, that doesn't really make sense.

But when you have a triune God and all those members are continually glorifying each other, it would then make sense for that God to continue to glorify himself in and through creation and all the things that he's made.

The family, the church.

I've got two really dumb dogs.

And somehow they glorify God in their existence and in their shenanigans.

And just the fact that creation holds together, your molecules are holding together, not flying apart, that should be, I mean, that's a Romans 1 argument.

That should be argument enough.

That.

That the triune God is who he says he is in scripture.

Now I want to make sure that we put this up to give.

Oh, no, not that one.

Where was it?

Here.

Answer is no.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

No, we'll get to that one in a second.

Landon.

Landon said.

Just to clarify, I'm not coming on this in a combative way.

Cool.

I. I would.

Sure.

Then I would love for you to come in here onto Apologetics live and.

And you know, let's have a good discussion.

I'd love that.

Yeah.

So I'll put.

I accidentally put this one up.

John asks, is your guests pre mill?

He likes to ask this of.

Of all the guests he is gonna love.

He.

You are going to be his favorite guest to make comments about soon.

Cody, what position do you hold?

Partial preterist.

Post millennial.

Yeah, he loves to pick on post mills.

Yeah.

I'm just saying he's.

Every week he's gonna.

He's gonna have an argument.

If you come on, he's gonna have an argument, you know, like, are you still post mill?

But I love more than ever.

During.

During.

So I became post millennial.

When it wasn't that I necessarily became postmill.

It was that my wife told me I was.

She's like, just admit it already.

You're postponed.

Andrew, my.

My father in law, who is, you know, I have a good relationship with my in laws, but they're premal.

They're dispensational premo.

And that's fine.

We don't hold it against each other.

But my father in law jokingly said, are you still postmill with all this stuff going on?

I was like, yeah, more than ever, man.

Let's go.

I'm having fun here.

I. Yeah, it is.

And you know, speaking of having fun, I mean, here's.

Here's John.

Brother John says, I'm fascinated by Andrew's teaching on spiritual gifts.

I can agree his interpretation is clearly his own.

And.

And a few cessationists, most of my Baptist ministers I'm friends with argue of our Are.

Are aware of these extremes.

Okay.

Oh, yeah.

I don't know.

I think he said are unaware.

I think is what he just missed.

This is one of those things where people fall into the trap of believing that just because somebody who calls themselves a Baptist holds to a position that that's what all Baptists hold to, like when you don't sit back and study, like, it's like when, it's like when those, those fundamentalists went on to Keith Foskey's show and tried to tell everyone what it is to be a fundamentalist.

And you and I watched it and we're like, we contacted Keith and we're like, no, you know, that's.

You can't just take.

What they just said was not even true.

Yeah.

Who aren't cessationists.

I've been to crazy churches that are Baptist churches.

Cessationism doesn't have anything to do inherently with being a Baptist.

So you gotta be careful because when you say things like that, you're just.

Just kind of.

Publicizing to the world, to everyone who knows that you don't really know what you're talking about.

Just throwing that out there.

Yeah.

Well, the thing is that a couple things.

It doesn't matter if I'm right, if your friends are right.

It only matters what scripture actually says.

So what you got to deal with, John, is look at the way I'm handling scripture.

Am I following the rules of language, Language and interpretation?

If I am, then I'm being consistent with the way God has spoken through language.