What happens when the business you built no longer feels like the business you want to run?

In this Sacred Business Calibration, Kelle Sparta coaches a spiritual entrepreneur through the tension between burnout recovery, business positioning, pricing, target markets, and the pressure to keep doing what once worked—even when it no longer feels aligned.

The conversation explores a challenge many experienced practitioners eventually face: your business may still function on paper, but internally, you’ve outgrown it.

Kelle explains why selling a $997 group program requires a very different message than selling a $5,000 private engagement, why you need one primary offer and one primary market, and why trying to speak to everyone at once weakens your positioning.

They also discuss the difference between following trends and leading from alignment, the dangers of applying generic entrepreneurial advice to spiritual businesses, and how burnout can become a signal that your business model, audience, or message needs to evolve.

Kelle shares her own experience of reaching the point where she had said everything she wanted to say to the seeker market, losing momentum, and eventually restructuring her work around professional spiritual practitioners. Instead of discarding years of content, she reorganized existing material, added new elements, and created a business model that restored her energy and enthusiasm.

For coaches, healers, facilitators, and spiritual entrepreneurs who feel trapped by a business they’ve outgrown, this episode offers a practical framework for recognizing misalignment and making a strategic pivot without throwing away everything you’ve already built.

What You’ll Learn

• Why a $997 offer and a $5,000 offer require different positioning
• How to choose a primary offer and target market
• Why trying to sell multiple offers simultaneously can dilute your message
• The “one thing, one market, one lead magnet, one platform” business principle
• Why burnout can cause business momentum to decline
• How generic entrepreneurial advice can misalign spiritual businesses
• The difference between following trends and evolving with your own alignment
• Why practitioners can become trapped in “golden handcuffs” inside their own businesses
• How to recognize when your business is running you
• Why a meaningful business pivot may take roughly 90 days
• How to restructure existing content instead of starting from zero
• Why spiritual entrepreneurs need business strategies designed for their industry

References Mentioned

• Spiritual Business Burnout
• Business Pivoting
• Offer Positioning
• Target Market
• Group Coaching
• Private Coaching
• Taki Moore
• Lead Magnets
• LinkedIn
• Facebook
• Instagram
• TikTok
• Spiritual Entrepreneurship
• Embodiment
• Somatic Work
• Burnout Recovery
• Business Alignment
• Conscious Business
• Spiritual Awakening
• 1998 Spiritual Awakening
• 2016 Awakening
• 2020 Pandemic Awakening
• Professional Spiritual Practitioner Program

Resources Mentioned

Kelle Sparta

https://kellesparta.com

Spirit Guides School

https://learn.kellesparta.com

 Welcome back to Spirit Sherpa, where spiritual practitioners learn to master their gifts, grow their businesses, and change lives. I'm your host, Kelle Sparta, transformational shaman, spiritual business coach, and today we are doing a sacred business calibration episode. If you have never listened to one of these before, think of it as a solid, strategic, grounded business consultation, business coaching, combined with intuitive hits, past life looks, uh, ancestral line stuff, co- sacred contract stuff, whatever happens to show up.

So it's a blended, uh, uh, concept of the two, and that's what we're gonna do today. And remember, guys, if you like these episodes, please like, subscribe, share. Please rate it. We haven't had a rating on Apple Podcasts in almost a year. Please, please, please, please give us a rating on Apple Podcasts. We could use another one.

That's how people find us, and it's a free thing that you can do to help us grow the podcast, and we really appreciate it.

So with that, I wanna welcome Elena to the show. Elena, will you, uh, tell us a little bit about your p- your, uh, business? Hi, everyone. Yeah. I'm Elena Su. I'm creator of Neo Dance for new, integrated, and inspired openings. And what I do is a somatic dance, and I call it visionary somatic dance. So basically, I support coaches, healers, creatives, visionary leaders to remember who they are.

They spent, you spent years building a successful business. You're holding space for others. You're, you're, you have all your responsibilities, but then there's a part of you perhaps that's just gone a bit quiet. There's a part of you that perhaps feels like, "My God, is this it now? I'm just going, kind of going through the motions."

And it's about rekindling that inner spark, that excitement, that passion that fuels you, that helps you to really show up and shine, and to really fully express yourself so that you can fully express all the gifts that you have, because maybe you haven't even expressed them all yet. Maybe there's a part of you that still needs to be expressed.

And I do it through the body, through the somatic intelligence of our body by returning back home To ourselves, reclaiming the wisdom in our hearts, um, reconnecting to ourselves. Um, especially if we've gone so busy, we've gotten disconnected, you know, we're burnt out and all the other things, depleted. B- because we basically give, give, give, overgive, give ourselves to the business and it's like, who are we?

Y- you know, we forget sometimes who we are after all this time, right? And so what I do is a practice that gives you permission to come home to yourself, to remember who you are, and to do it with lightness and playfulness and with joy, and to invite in that freedom again that we kind of, you know, we kind of put ourselves in this s- sort of cage ourselves in this kind of prison of responsibility and expectation and fear.

We all have it, and the more successful you are, I believe, um, you know, there's a new layers of new glass ceilings, new layers, new boundaries, new fears, new growing edges, right? Yeah. So we're constantly in that cycle ... No, cycle's the wrong word. On that journey, process, whatever. Um, exploration, whatever you wanna call it, right?

Yeah. Okay. So let me ask you, um, so you're working with spiritual practitioners, leaders, right? So let's, let's ask the first question, which is how are you working with them? Are you in person? Are you online? What are we doing? I'm doing both. Okay. I've created online, I've created online programs. C- I've created a main online program.

So I hold Zoom sessions, and I do do in-person things, which of course have a different flavor. Um- Right. But- So are you ... When you're online, you said program. So is it like a coaching program or is it a, uh, led body-based process or what i- what exactly are you doing? It's guided, it's coaching through, through inner guidance and through somatic movement so that you are guided to find the answers within.

Okay. So to re- to remi- to find your, to listen to yourself. To listen to yourself. Okay. Is it one-on-one or is it one to group? I can do both. Mm-hmm. Okay. So what's your preference? Hmm. I think there's something very, uh, powerful in a group dynamic, um, when everyone feels safe and it's the right group. And one-on-one is a different thing.

You give your all to that person, and they, they might have stuff that they don't want to reveal in a group or, you know, they want to have that one-on-one, right? Um, it's a, it's a different thing when it's from one-on-one to a group. And I think- Okay, so you don't have a preference is what you're saying? Well, I think it's difficult to say.

I, I wouldn't... You know, I think it's nice to... You know, it's nice to have a group with that group dynamic in, in person certainly. Yes. Okay. In person then a, a group is really- Okay. And so where are you located? Well, I'm located in Stroud, in Gloucestershire, in the UK right now. Okay. But I may, um, change, which is also why I've got online.

Yeah. Okay. So, uh, so you're looking to do an online program, uh, group-based. Uh, and so do you know your price point yet? I have a group program. Okay. It's £997 right now for the group- For how long? 90 days. Okay. And it's hybrid. There's, um, there's dance journeys, practices, handbook, and we meet live as well.

Okay. So what is the time commitment? Um, about, um, an, about an hour and a half, two hours maximum a week. There's a... We meet three, three times in a month, and then we have a month off, and there's practices. You mean a week off, but yeah. Okay. Sorry, a week. Yeah. Yeah. That's okay. Just clarifying. Yes. Okay. And, uh, how much time does it s- i- is, is that hour and a half to two hours, does that include the coursework?

Yeah, the coursework. Okay. I don't wanna call it that. Yeah, there's like, um, a total of maybe 45 minutes of recorded material that you can... You can go off screen. I have downloadable MP3s. You can put headphones on. I encourage people to go into nature, you know, and really drop in, just listen, get guidance, move, dance.

There's a handbook with, uh, s- uh, some exercises, prac- suggested practices, and there's extra. But it's the sort of program, um, that you can revisit because, you know, like life, there's, there's cycles. There's, um... And, and we- you can revisit things at a different time, in a different space, and get something new out of it.

And then we meet live for, like, an hour, um, and maybe one hour and a half workshop as well once a month. Okay. And then the rest are an hour. Yeah. And do you know how long the people that you're targeting have been in business? Um, I don't exactly because, um-

I, I haven't been, I haven't gotten that specific about the targeting, to be frank- Okay ... about how long they've been in business. I wasn't- Yeah, you're, you're gonna need to But they, they've been there- Yeah. Okay. So they're already successful. They've already spent years establishing themselves in one, in some way.

Okay. They're not newbies. They're not rookies. Okay. So one of the things that happens when people are trying to target people who are further along in their journey is that they're trying to do a design pro- uh, process that is, um, not designed for the level of person that they're talking to, right? So there are people who have been in for a long time, and then there are people who have been in for a long time and are doing financially very well.

So do you know which group you're talking about? 'Cause both groups are burned out, just so we're clear. Well, I think if they're doing financially well, but they are still feeling a bit flat, then that is more, uh... Well, that's more interesting to me because- Okay. So, so let me be... L- let me sort of give you a, a, an avatar for the two different groups that you're talking about, okay?

Mm-hmm. So group number one is the, "I've been in for a long time, I know a lot of stuff, I haven't made the business work, and I'm exhausted from trying." Mm-hmm. Okay? That group, the 997 price point works for. Mm-hmm. Okay? Um, and they're willing to do a, uh, they're willing to do a, a course per se, right? Mm-hmm. Um, when you're dealing with the upper end group, where they have made the business work, they've been around for a long time, they know their stuff- Mm-hmm

that's a harder nut to crack. Mm-hmm. And the reason for that is that they have less time than the other people. Mm-hmm. And so two hours a week feels like a strong, a big commitment. Mm-hmm. Um, and I... So I'm, I'm in your, your genre, right? So, um, you're looking at people who are over six figures. I'm over six figures.

I've been in for 25 years or so, you know. I've been doing this for a long time. Um, I'm your target market, right? And I do burn out, which is what I'm actively working on right now, which is not burning out, right? Um, and so I'm actively working on that. But- Mm-hmm ... I don't, I'm like n- unlikely to hire somebody to help me with that because I've been doing this work for 25 years.

I know what I need to do, I just need to do it, right? Yeah. And so I'm, I'm not gonna hire somebody. Um, but if somebody's been around, I don't know, 10 years, maybe five to 10 years, and they're doing well, they might hire you, but they're not gonna hire you at the 997 group rate. Exactly. They're, they're doing well.

They d- it's too cheap. They want private one-to-one. Yeah. They don't wanna be exposed because they're too visible in the world, right? Um, and so they don't wanna be exposed in a group environment, they want to have a private, you know, session. And they want it to only be what they need. They don't wanna have to take a class.

Yeah. Right? That's fine. So they, they don't want any coursework. You know, they want you to send them what they need. Yeah. And they don't wanna be opting into a hybrid program. Right. Okay? Yeah. So- That's, yeah, that's fine ... that group would be private one-to-one for 90 days for $5,000. Right Okay? But you have to have a guaranteed outcome for that money.

Yeah. Right? So you need to be able to sit down and figure out what you can guarantee. So for instance, when I was doing B2C and I had my Welcome to Woo program, I guaranteed to cut people's, uh, stress in half or their money back. Okay? So that's a, that's a guarantee you can do, right? Um, so long as people are happy with the outcome, they never exercise the guarantee, and you're good, right?

But you have to... That means you have to reserve the money aside in case that, that happens, right? So, um, but once you know you can deliver it, it's not a problem. So the, the thing that you have to pay attention to is, and this is where the crucial factor comes in, is you have to be clear about who your market is.

Mm. Because the way you sell to the 997 market is a very different sell than the way you sell to the $5,000 market. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Okay? I have two... So yeah, I mean, I have a group page, and I have a one-to-one page. Um- Okay ... you know But, but you need to pick what is your primary sell. You can't be- Uh ... selling both at the same time.

Mm-mm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Okay? You have to pick what you're selling into as your primary choice, because you wanna be known for one thing. The thing that took my business over six figures was saying, uh, Taki Moore gave me a piece of advice, and it was the best advice I'd ever gotten. And it was, "Sell one thing to one target market using one lead magnet on one platform for one year."

Yeah.

You- I've heard that before. Yeah. Yeah. That, that a- when I did that, I finally took my business over six figures. Wow. That's... You have to commit. You can't be, like, spraying and praying. Yeah, yeah. Right? No, I... Well, I... It's been... I mean, I'm on YouTube. I've been on In- LinkedIn, and I just think LinkedIn's not quite the right...

Well, it's full of business, but it's not quite right for what I do. Well, it depends. If you're m- if you're targeting the high-end people, the $5,000 people- Yeah ... those, those people will be on LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn. Yeah. Right? Um, but if you're targeting the 997 group, they are not gonna be on LinkedIn.

They're gonna be on Facebook and Instagram. Yeah, on Instagram. Yeah. Yeah. Yep, yep. Okay? Yeah, so this is- Um, sometimes on TikTok, right? Yes, yes, yes. So, but they're not gonna be on LinkedIn. Those are not your people. Yeah. So you need to decide, which one do you wanna talk about today? Today on your program, you mean?

Yeah.

Well, I've been putting more energy into my group program for now. I have more materials, if you like, for it. Yeah. Um, so it's easier for me to talk about, put it that way. Whereas the one-to-one- Okay ... it's, it's more case specific. Right. Well, and as it should be, right? So, okay, what I'm gonna say is you have to tie the burnout recovery to income at that level, okay?

You can do straight burnout recovery for the people who are already making good money. They don't... They're, they're okay with that, right? Because they know how they make money. But your other group is still desperate to make money, and so you have to tie the sell into making money, and you have to explain to them, which, uh, I'm gonna tell you exactly how you tie that in, because this is the fact: when you are fried, you will energetically shut down your business, and you will not get more business.

So the main message has, uh, is not actually of burnout and being fried. It's about having plateaued and just, you know,

a part of you is just, like, just, you know, lost, lost. Maybe this is the higher end market. Lose a sense of who you really are anymore, you know? You, you... Something's missing. Yeah. I, I get that, and the something missing is often tied to being fried, just so you know. That's been my experience when I talk to these people, is that they, they have, they have done what they thought they were supposed to do, and burned themselves out doing it, and they've lost a piece of themselves along the way.

There are, there's a huge market of people who are very well-known right now who are pivoting, and they have been for the last six months, that I'm... Even I did, right? So the end of last year, I pivoted, and I, I acknowledged that my business had already pivoted and I just hadn't pivoted the business itself.

So I stopped doing B2C, um, and I started, instead of going for seekers, I w- I started working with practitioners because they were 70% of who was showing up anyway, right? But I shifted my business to that model, and that's happening a lot, where I'm seeing people saying, "Well, this doesn't really fit me anymore," right?

And that piece is what's causing the... That's where the breakdown is happening for them. So are you telling me that you're seeing something completely different than that? Or does that feel like it could be a symptom of what you do? So sorry, I n- I, uh, I need you to backtrack a bit. You're saying that quite established people that are well known are...

You're seeing them visibly pivot. In what- Yes ... sense? I've missed something. Like, they'll change their business model entirely, or they'll change their focus entirely, or they'll come up with a completely new offer that they hadn't been offering before. But is there a pattern in the kind of pivoting that's happening?

Uh, it seems to be different for each person, um, but it is related to... Let me think about that. Um, it's a really good question I feel like it's leading, leaning them more into their feminine aspect. So, uh, not meaning like male, female, but like, uh, being-ness versus doing-ness. And, um, more intuitive based and less structured So, but I'm also seeing a lot of burnout happening.

I'm seeing a lot of retreating from things and saying, "I'm, I'm, I'm going away, I'll be back when I'm back," sort of things happening. So yeah, that's all tied to this, you know, like you say, the do, do, do, not be, be, be. The, the, the, the, the goals. The, the, the yang, the, the more male kind of way of doing things.

Right And, and whereas the coming back to yourself is more about listening to yourself and listening to what you need, which is completely connected to what I do. Um, in terms of pivoting, I think that's a part of business in general. I spent years before I was... I've been teaching dance for a long time, but I haven't been doing this online business for a long time.

But I have traveled, made clothes, right? Had a s- had stalls, pop-up stalls and shops, and I've had... My clothes, my creations, I was selling. You always have to keep changing, switching things up to keep things fresh, right? And I'm not even following fashion, I'm just talking about y- you know, people will get tired.

They, you have to keep at, on top of trends as it were. And you know, now there's more- Hmm I don't know. I'm gonna argue that. Okay. I'm gonna argue that. In our industry, trends, following the trends is gonna destroy your business. You're gonna, you're gonna spend your entire life pivoting, and you're not gonna find anything solid, because the trends change every 30 seconds.

So, but there's a... And you know, in fashion you absolutely have to follow trends, but in spiritual business, no. That, that is, that is the kiss of death, because you're constantly shifting. Because they're constantly changing the names of things. Like somebody said wayshower the other day. I'm like, "Uh, what is that?"

Right. And they were like, "Oh, it's lightworker." I'm like, "Why do we not just say lightworker?" I don't understand why we have to change the terms- Yeah ... every 30 seconds, right? But the, the, there are things that, that you cannot follow the trend, you have to lead the trend as you're standing in this space.

However, when you are out of alignment with what you have been saying in the past, it is important to transition to something that is in alignment with where you are now, right? Uh, um, yeah. I mean, this is all like really, very structural business, tactical, you know, common sen- uh, common sen- I don't have common sense.

But I mean like practical, good advice. I say that because, you know, it's a joke. You know, I'm an, I'm a recovering academic with no common sense, so it's a joke. You know, it's like, it's like the... You know? But um, there is a trend in general in that so many coaches are now talking about embodiment and calling them somatic and, but because it's c- become a bit of a buzzword.

There's a trend in festivals in that there's more conscious festivals and more awareness happening. So this t- talk of retreating back into yourself is something that's like- happening in the field. It's happening in In, I don't know, this generation, like younger people are more aware and talk in a different language to maybe our generation or people who are older, right?

a lot of people woke, woke up during that time, too. And so, um, we have a huge amount of people who are at the awakening, you know, or are at or beyond the wa- the awakening stage, and there is a push towards the tipping point, but we're not near that tipping point yet. That tipping point is still a little ways away.

However, the, the people who are waking up, and I, I... You're right, the younger generation is coming in more aware than our generations be- that came before, and so that's another factor that's coming in. However, they're aware, but they're not educated. And the challenge is that there's so much misinformation out there that they're having a hard time because they're coming in and they're being pulled in different directions and they're being told things that just patently are untrue.

And, you know, they don't know who to trust because the market is saturated with marketing bros throwing aphorisms out and pretending that they know what they're talking about, and that's problematic. Um, not just bros, but chicks too, right? Marketing chicks and bros. Uh, so you know, that's, that's its own thing.

Here's, uh, uh, the biggest challenge when you step into this work is that you come in and you start getting advice from entrepreneur coaches, not from spiritual entrepreneur coaches. And so it puts you into this, you know, run, drive, drive, drive, breakthrough, drive, drive, drive sort of approach, and this do, do, do, do, do approach to things, and, and how many pieces of content can you put out in a day?

And, you know, it's just, it puts you on this hamster wheel of insanity. And it's all in service to something that isn't even gonna convert in the first place because it's, uh, your basic offer isn't working, right? So these people have had that experience, right? They are, they've been put in a direction that is not the direction that they feel aligned with, but that they felt like they had to get aligned with in order to make sales Right?

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so that's the journey you have to talk about. You have to talk about how the advice they're getting is not valid for spiritual businesses. You have to talk about how they're, you know, they have to check in to see if they are in alignment with their business or if their business is running them, right?

Mm-hmm. And, you know, are they coming at it from a place of intuitive alignment or are they coming at it from a place of do, do, do, uh, you know, drive, drive, drive to exhaustion? Mm-hmm. Yeah, sure. Right, where you're feeling unfulfilled at the end of the day, right? Yeah. Um, if you're, if you look at your business and you say, "I can't say one more thing about this, I'm exhausted," right?

That you, you need that middle of the night thought, right? So I will tell you that back in September of last year, I was talking with my co-host on the podcast at the time about that. We were in this place of I felt like I had said everything I could say to the B2C market, to the seeker market, a- without being unsafe, right?

I can't teach them demonology, for instance, right? Um, and so I felt like I'd said everything I could say to them, but I didn't know where to take the podcast yet. And so, it, we were in that sort of in between space for several months, and, you know, he actually opted out of being on the c- on the podcast at that time, and I was just like, "Okay, I'm just gonna keep going until I figure out where I'm going."

And in January we shifted, and, and it was very much we, we had this sort of I'm keeping on to keep on, but I'm, I, I'm not inspired anymore. I'm tired. I'm, I, I don't wanna say anything else about this. I've talked about these things four or five times each. I'm just like, "And I don't wanna talk about this other stuff, and I just don't care," and it was just like I was in this aah space.

And then I found my pivot, and I was like, "Woo, the energy is back. I'm excited again," right? And that's the k- that's the piece, I think, um, that energy is what I was in. And so I'll tell you where my mindset was at that time so that that helps you, 'cause it's the middle of the night thought, right? It's like, "Ugh, I, I'm, I'm so exhausted doing this.

I'm not inspired anymore, but I can't stop doing it because I can't afford to stop doing it," right? Because that's where my income's coming from. I can't shift it. Right? That's the, the you're in the golden handcuffs in your business, right? And you don't, you don't think of it that way, but that's, that's what it is, right?

You're just like, "Ugh, I can't, but I, I can't not." You're in that, you know, space. And, and just sitting there and being like, "Oh, why can't I, I just be okay with this? And why, why am I losing momentum in my business?" Because that also happens when you're in that un- unhappy space, you lose momentum in your business.

The business drops. And that's exactly what happened. It was dropping like a rock. And I was like, "Ugh." And, and it's like the universe looked at me and said, "We've been trying to get you to make this shift for a couple of years." We're tired of you doing this, so you're gonna, you're gonna stop now. We're just not gonna let anybody sign up.

And I was like, "Ah." Right? Um, and then, you of course, you know, you do the pivot, pivot and everything explodes properly, you know, in, in a good way. Oh, so- Explodes in a good way. But yeah ... when you pivoted- Mm-hmm ... were you pivoting, you were just coming from a different direction with what you offer, or actually what you were offering was slightly changed as well?

Oh, I, I changed... So I provided, I used a lot of my existing content, but I completely restructured it in a brand-new way. Mm. And so, uh, and, and I added in additional stuff. So instead of doing personal growth and development, I actually combined personal growth and development, spiritual skill building- Okay

and business building. Mm-hmm. And I created a year-long program that's called the Professional Spiritual, uh, s- uh, prf- practitioner. Yeah, I can talk. Professional Spiritual Practitioner Program. Um, and, uh, it's, it's, it's got five certifications in it. So I'm teaching different spiritual techniques and things like that for, for people to be able to build their business from scratch, right?

So that gave me a whole new level of excitement when I did that. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And so it was new stuff and old stuff, so I wasn't, like, throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Yeah. Uh, I was restructuring my offerings, and they feel, the new en- the energy in the f- the program just feels so good. In fact, we've got our first three people in the system at this point and, and Josh got in touch with me, he's my coach, and he said, "The energy's amazing."

So, you know, um, so we know it's, it's doing well. They, so but my point is it's not about me. It's, it's about being able to show you what the energy is for the people that you're talking to. Because everyone I've talked to who's going through this process is, is having the same sort of experience where they just, they get to the point where they just look at their business and they're like, "I just can't anymore," you know?

And, and but they don't know what comes next, and they're in this limbo space. And so, and it did take me about 90 days to make that transition. Mm. Right? So, you know, the universe arranged for me to have surgery so I literally could not do anything else. Yes. So because, you know, uh, yeah, I'm like that.

Anyway, so but that's the thing. It does take about 90 days. And so, so the challenge for you with that model where you're working with people through that specific transition, is that you've got to catch them in the right place, and it's a very specific time and space, and that's a very small target market.

Right? So that's gonna be the biggest challenge for you because, you know, the, you- you're not looking for people who are still in that panic pivot point where they haven't made money yet. You're looking for people who are out of... And, and this is gonna be your biggest challenge with making sales. So is being...

If you're in that specific space and that's all you wanna work with, that market is super tiny at any given point in time. Well, to be honest with you, Kelle, I'm gonna be really frank here. I teach... Originally, the modality is dance, movement, expression, joyful, healing, empowering, confidence building, all of those things.

All of them, right? Expansive, and then connecting. And then marketing says, "No, one word, one message, one pain point." I mostly, like you say, one, one, one. Um, and so I've had to really painfully shrink down. A bit like doing a PhD. PhD they go, "No, no, no. Sorry, you've gotta make it go in like this," like a pin prick to, on your actual research topic.

That's what happens. I haven't done one, but I looked into doing it. And so that's, and so that's what I've found with it, and it's... And that was part of, that was a big part of my pain point of this business to, to, to, to, to s- And then also the whole, the ICA, the, you know, avatar, to get to that exact fine-tuning of the avatar.

And it doesn't mean that that's the only people I can speak to, of course not. When I'm in person as well, especially in person, has a different flavor, and it invites in different people. You know, online you have to be so much more precise with your language, I believe, to get- Yeah, I agree. Yeah ... three seconds flat.

In person, people will come for the whole embodied, full, you know, connection and the full experience, right? And they come out of it feeling more alive, different, more, you know, more connected to themselves. But that doesn't always translate easily and well into marketing language, and that's not clear.

That's too general an ICA. Someone who wants to just, you know, come and Do you know what I mean? And that's been a real... I have to say that's been really painful for me, and I've listened to lots of different marketing people, too many. Listened to everyone but myself, and then I listen to myself, and it, it is more about just coming back to yourself.

It's about connecting to actually your higher self, that it moves beyond fear. You connect back to your heart. That was what, what my MA research was about. But to make that, um, marketable and business savvy, like you're saying, relate it to money and how they can make money in their business- There's a lot of steps to get to that point.

Do you see what I mean? For me I do. Um, I have to say, I don't think you've got the right target market I think based on what you just said, your target market is executive women And they would have the money to do what you wanna do And you don't have to work so hard to get them, and you don't have to catch them at a specific transition point.

Corporate women, and, and not even executive corporate, I mean, y- I'm, I'm just saying, you know, anybody who's at a director level or above in, in executive in, in, in corporations. Because they've gotta have enough money and enough time off to do what you wanna do, right? They have enough, enough bandwidth to do it.

Um, and the people in survival don't have the bandwidth to do what you wanna do, okay? You need to, you need to recognize who is your client and who is not your client. Mm-hmm. And I think executive women or, you know, director corporate level women is a great market for you because they are strung out, they are, uh, they're putting on a face every single day, they're being somebody they're not every single day, and they come home and they're like, "When do I get to be me?"

And if you give them a couple of hours a week of stuff that they can do to come back to be themselves, you bring them back into life. Yeah. And they're the ones who are desperate for it. I don't think the spiritual market is your market. Well- I really think that the executive women market is your, your market.

And, and I think that you will... There's a, the, the other side of that too is that if they are also parents, they are, they spend their entire life in a role and no, no part of their life being themselves. And so it is a gift to them to do something different, right? Yeah. And that opens up your ability to market to every mommy blog, every mommy podcast, every executive women's thing, founder's woman thing.

Every place you, you go, you have very clear target market area, very easy way to target the people that you're looking for. Um, I'm one of the few podcasts that actually targets the market that I target, and the reason I have a following is because I built the following on the seeker market who grew into the practitioner market, right?

It's, it, it's, it's hard to find access points to, to the market that I serve. So the, the marketing becomes easier when you target a very specific genre of people that is highly, uh, marketed to, right? Um, sorry, can I ask you something, Kelle? Yeah. 'Cause this comes up a lot is, you know, targeting just women. I understand why so many women do women only things, but I also know, and especially 'cause in person it's not just women, men need it just as much.

And so I really don't want to just focus just on women, and I have had someone say, "Well, the language completely changes when it's for a man." But I

think it's important not to exclude them. And so that probably , you know, is another complication. But I really feel very important. I feel very strongly, even if m- it's majority of women who come, doesn't matter, I don't want to make it sound like the men can't So I have a friend who uses a marketing thing that she says, um, "I serve X women," you know, whatever her, her targeting is, "and a few good men."

Right? Yeah. And that's how she does it. And so you were... You could absolutely do that. Mm. Um, and, and do it that way, because, you know, that makes it clear. Can I use that without sounding like plagiarism? Could I say that? I love that, "and a few good men." Yeah, by all means. I don't... I, you know, it's, she's, she's serving- It works for her

a different market than you are, so. Okay. Okay. All right. I, I wouldn't worry about it. I just wanted to check. But yeah. You, you just say, you know- That's interesting ... "I serve executive," you know, "corporate women and a few good men," right? Um, or, you know, "and the men who love them," if you want their partners specifically.

But, you know, you can do whatever you wanna do in that regard. So, so then- So ... I mean, I could keep the group program, you mean, for the other market. But then the one-to-one really speak very clearly to the executive women, which is what they'd have to be to p- to pay anyway. Um, and then I keep my presence on LinkedIn.

I get a lot of, you know, I, I haven't had any traction there, but everyone always says they like... They like... They wanna join what I'm doing, and I just think, "Ugh, I'm wasting my time on there." But, you know, a part of me feels I'm not. Part of me feels like there's something there for me to tap into- So-

obviously. Yeah. LinkedIn works like T- TikTok does. So if you're not engaging with other people's posts, if you're not commenting on them, if you're not being a good citizen in LinkedIn, they limit your reach, right? So I have over 10,000 followers on LinkedIn, and I get like f- 30 engagements out of every post, because I don't spend time on LinkedIn commenting on other people's posts, right?

I just, I don't have the time to do that right now, and that's not where the market is for the people that I'm marketing to right now. I'm, my people are on Facebook and TikTok, right? Yeah. So, you know, but if I, if I wanted to grow my LinkedIn influence, I would actually go in and, and, you know, f- like and follow and, and, you know, talk and whatever.

Engage with people on their posts, and re- repost and all the things. Um, and that's how you get engagement on LinkedIn. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, but pa- so this is also part of the confusion to me, is 'cause I think, "Okay, so I do need to be on Instagram more." I have a VA who helps me a few hours a week, little bit, and I'm...

She says she's good, she's used to lead gens. Okay, she can s-... I thought I need... Because my Instagram is pitiful, and like I've just come from a big conscious festival where I want to present, and they, all they do is look at your Instagram account, which is really... What's the word? Well, it's a bit discriminatory.

It doesn't necessarily mean that you're g- but they, that's how they do it. Right. Literally how big your Instagram account is. Yeah. And so I thought, "Oh, God. I've got to go on that. I've got to bloody do the Instagram thing." Um, and, um, and I can get- Okay. So, so let me be clear. Never let somebody else tell you how to run your i- your marketing like that.

Right? I am not heavily on, I mean, I'm on Instagram. I've got about 1,000 followers. I, I do not focus on Instagram. I cross-post and that's it. And if somebody told me that, I would look at them and say, "I have 30,000 followers, and 1,000 of them are on Instagram. That's just not my market. And if that's your criteria, then I'm probably not gonna be a fit for you, period."

There are a million different places to do your presentations. You do not have to do it at a place that is going to specifically force you into a platform that you don't fit on. It's a good event. It is a good- Yeah ... it's a good event. I, but even if it's a good event, there's lots of good events. This is- There's lots of good events, and if you look at them and say, "I have 30,000 followers, and only 1,000 are on Instagram," they might look at you and be like, "Oh, 30,000 followers."

And, you know- Yeah ... "I've got 5,000 people who listen to my podcast." Yeah. "And I've got this, and I've got that." Then, then they start to go, "Oh." Because what they really want to know is, do you have the ability to promote? Yeah. That's what they want. Yeah. And if you can show you have the ability to promote, then that's really all that matters.

You have to ignore what they say they need, and go for what it is that they actually want, right? And this is what I tell people when they try to get on podcasts too. I get, I get solicited three to five times a week for my podcast, and they're all saying, "Oh, I've got the best thing since sliced bread." And I'm like, "You know what?

Everybody thinks they're the best thing since sliced bread. What are you going to do for me for the, what you're asking me to do for you," right? And that's what everybody wants to know is, what's the reciprocity, right? You know, if somebody comes to me and says that they wanna be on my podcast and they're trying to get me to interview them, which I don't do anymore, but it- when I did interviews, uh, I, I, I give precedence to the people who say, "I will actually promote the episode to my people," because they're asking to get exposed to my people in exchange for, you know, the interview.

But the interview, I can get 50,000 people to be on an interview. The question is, are you going to expose me to your people? That's a fair trade, right? And so I grow my podcast and you grow your, your views and, and your ex- your experience and, and all of, all is right with the world, right? So that's well and fine.

And so what you have to understand when you're trying to get into an event or into a podcast or on a summit is you have to recognize what the other person wants and be able to provide it to them, right? So that's, that's what I was trying to say More of a rec- reciprocity, yes Reciprocity, yes Yes Yeah Yeah So, um, don't be attached to any one thing is what I'm saying.

And if you are attached to something, just stand in your power and say, "I'm going to present here," and then have them figure it out, right? Because when you are solid in your being-ness, things just bend to that. That is how that works. So I had an event that I was clear I was supposed to be a coach at, that I had paid to be a participant at, and when I showed up, I was like, "Oh, there was an ability to be a coach?

That's what I was supposed to be here for." I wasn't sure why I had signed up in the first place. And I, I just walked in and I was like, "I'm, I need to be a coach." And they were like, "Well, we're, we're full." I'm like, "I don't care. I need to be a coach. That, that's why I came. I didn't know that's why I came, but that's why I came."

And the, the woman was like, "Well, I asked and they said no." I said, "I'd like to plead my case with the person directly." And I went in and said, "This is where I'm supposed to be." And they went, "Okay." And that was it, right? You just, you gotta stand in it, okay? Don't, don't take no for an answer if that's where you're meant to be.

Find another way in, okay? That reminds me of a funny story I heard recently, but I'm not sure I should air it on your podcast with all your viewers, but it... But I can get the gist of it. This guy was saying how, you know, he has a special gear that people wear, you know, when you're working backstage, and he gets into every event because he just literally strolls up and like, "Oh yeah, I'm looking for John.

He's got the..." And people are like, "Oh, okay. Oh yeah, I think he's over there." And they just, he just literally just w- walks past the people and he says because he, he's so, uh- Confident, yes Absolutely He's like, "I'm meant to be here. I'm supposed to be here," you know? Yeah. It's kind of like, "No, no, I'm here." Yeah "I'm supposed to be meeting..."

And I think I said to him, "I think it's easier for you guys. Women is a bit different. 'Oh, I'm gonna see Kelle.' 'Kelle who? Is she another... oh, a makeup artist?'" Whereas guys, there's always a lot more men milling around, doing whatever construction or... Do you know what I mean? It's just quite funny. It was, it was a funny, funny story and I just thought, "God, that's, that's brilliant."

I said, "You've got into loads of things that you've d- you've managed to ..." I've actually done that same thing before in different contexts. Yeah But yeah, I, it, it, it actually works as long as you're really solid Pretending you're press. Yeah, you're press or something. Or you're someone's makeup artist or...

Yeah Yeah Yeah. You know, it's, it's like, "Well, only so and sos get in here." "Well, I'm so and, I'm, I'm so and so." Or, you know, "Oh, well yeah, but so and so is expecting me," right? And they're like, "Well, you're not on the list," I'm like, "Can't help you on that one." Right? They're just like, "But I'm gonna tell you they're gonna be upset if I'm not there," right?

Yes. Yes. Then you're just, you're just solid, right? Yes. Um, not that I'm, I'm suggesting that people should sneak into places, but I'm- I was young and I got there, you know? I mean, it's like, poof, the more solid you are, the more people believe you, right? But, I mean, that's how all these influencers are getting big, I'm sorry, that are like, you know, a lot of them.

It's not- So I, I really encourage people not to try and follow influen- I'm not to like, I'm not saying don't follow influencers because some of them are entertaining and fun and in- informative and whatever, but not to try and be an influencer because that is so much more work than what you want to do.

And you have to be obsessed with what's trending, what's going viral- Oh ... what's doing whatever, right? And In our business, authenticity is what is trending. Authenticity is what makes you go viral. Authenticity is the, is the ticket to everything. And we are not influencers. We are leaders, and there's a huge difference.

And so that's the piece that I want you to remember, and, and be true to who you are in this model, okay? Because the, the pathway, especially since what you do is saying be in authenticity, you have to do that yourself, right? This is the challenge with being a spiritual leader, is that your, your business is a workshop that you have to go through every freaking day.

And you're just like, "Oh my God, what do I have to learn now?" Right? What part of my spiritual work do I have to do? What past life do I have to clear? What, what thing do I have to do that I don't wanna do, that I'm resisting? What am I in resistance around? Because it's impacting my business at a level that it doesn't for other p- types of businesses.

Because of what we do and the morphic field of what we do, we have to be impeccable about doing our work, and that both is awesome and it sucks. Because, you know, we don't get to just twiddle, right? So yeah, it's a constant evolution process. And so, um, for you, it's gonna absolutely be required that you step forward in this way and make sure that you're doing what you feel called to do, not what some marketer told you to do, including me, by the way.

So you need to do what you feel called to do. And, and I agree with you, I don't think that the answer is to do that, that small a thing. Because that thing that you've, you picked is so small that it's not gonna have enough of a market for you, because it's such a short time period in people's lives, right?

Well, um- But the, the larger vision that you had that you told, told me marketers were trying to drive you away from, I truly believe that is the right place to be. The, you know, finding yourself again. Well, yeah. Finding a place where you fit in your life, giving yourself a place to come back to you. I think that is the market, because right now everyone, especially in the US, but worldwide, everybody is strung out And overdone, and they're just trying to get through the day, right?

There is this sense of needing to have hope, uh, because there's, there's so much going wrong in the world right now that people are desperate for hope. And you can't find hope if you are, if you can't find yourself, right? I don't... Actually, to be honest, that is my main message, Kelle. It's not about the, um, depleted and burnt out and, um, just reach the plat- That's part of it, but it is about coming home to yourself.

That is my- Yeah ... main message. That is it. It's called, my main program's called Reclaim You. Yeah. In fact. Well, and- It, it, it is, but I, I hear you about the, the different levels and, um, I can offer... Anyway, sorry, I didn't want to interrupt you, but I, I can offer the, a one-to-one and I offer a VIP version. I'm s- I mean, I've been up...

A- and it's through movement. But yeah, I, I had to... It is that. It is that. And it's a, it's about if you... Yeah. So if you've lost sense of who you are, and it's not just a moment in time thing, we're talking over extended periods of time. People might have been in this state for, like, a decade. Right. You know?

Right? Easily, actually. Think about it, as you get older, decades. Yeah. Talking decades. Well, and this is kind of my point, is that I feel like having worked with both the executive women market and with the spiritual market, the executive women market is, is far more open to and, uh, n- needing what you're talking about.

I feel like a lot of the people in the spiritual market already have access points into that, and so they're more likely to, you know, do it for themselves or talk to a friend or whatever. Whereas, the executive market, they don't have that. They need it, and they're, they're willing to pay for it, and they're even potentially willing to go for a retreat for it, right?

That would be an amazing business model for you, would be to have an online version and then a let's come and do a retreat together, right? And walking them through in person. So they get w- you know, one-on-one or group, and you sell the one-on-one and then you downsell into the group, right? So y- you're, you're, you're offering both at the same time, but you're only promoting one.

Yeah. But the promotion doesn't say whether it's one-on-one or the group. It says, "This is what we're doing." And then when you do your sales call, you have the sales call about the one-on-one, and if they balk at the price, then you downsell them into the group. Right? That's how you do that model Yeah. So then I can kind of weave the two together a bit, as in the group one, reclaim, you can still be a lower level for people, and if they really want the one-to-one, if they really want the work, they could have the higher level, right?

I mean- You start by selling the higher level, and you down-sell into the group. You do not start at the group and up-sell into the higher level. Okay. So I'm promoting- Okay ... the class to then promote my group Next month, right? September, I'm promoting- Yeah ... doing class. But I can still... And the one-to-one is the skill, the sales skills I, I need to learn.

So I was taking out the word leaders, but then I was put back the leaders, 'cause I was saying, okay, coaches, healers, and creatives, but actually the lead... 'Cause I thought, "Oh, leaders just sounds too corporate, and I'm not from the corporate world." So I've had this chip on my shoulder, to be honest. Maybe my Achilles heel of, oh, I'm not from the corporate world.

But actually- I'm not either Yeah. And people are- I'm not either. I've never worked in corporate ever Okay. And I've coached many corporate women in my life. Okay. Okay? It, it, people are people. You understand the concept. It doesn't make a difference. No. Okay? I, I have never worked in corporate, but I have, I have taken people from a lower level of income to a much higher level of income and a much higher level o- of, of happiness in their lives and, and a higher quality of life in their job, right?

I've, I've helped them to transition into better paying, better type of jobs and, you know, uplevel their life in general. I, it's, it's not that difficult in terms of it's not that different from what you do in other things. There's corporate politics to consider, but if you understand people, you understand corporate politics, right?

It's really not- It's not that different, right? Yeah, yeah. Um, so you can see how the, the s- the structures work, right? But you're not actually gonna be doing that with them. You're gonna be doing work with them connecting with themselves. So you don't... It, the, the corporate stuff doesn't really matter to you at all.

No, that's very true. That's very true. That's, that's not work that you're doing. Yeah. That's very true. And someone has said to me, "Well, actually, the corporate people don't want to find someone in corporate." There's a lot of ex-corporate women who've completely gone the other way and become these super woo woo coaches, right?

But I find them sometimes, I don't know, a bit... Yeah. They're, they're not... I'm not gonna say anything. I just, I just- Yeah ... I'm the, I know. I've been doing this stuff for years and years and years, right? I have lived and breathed it, um, since I was a child, actually, dance. Yeah. So, um, it's just, um, yeah, showing up, not, and not, not carrying around my own BS, dealing with my shadows.

Yeah. Dealing with my- You're not selling into an HR system. You're not trying to get in and do group coaching for a corporation. Okay. You're just targeting people who are inside corporations right now. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Right? That you're targeting individuals. And so i- it's, it's not as corporate as you think it is Yeah, I understand.

Right? So I think I need to tweak a bit my one-to-one page. I've got a one-to-one page. I think I need to tweak it and really speak to those people, because I think it will really speak to them then. Yeah. Because I notice I get interest and... but I think people are afraid or I'm... I don't know, not i- much interest on, on LinkedIn.

You know, people... I'm

apparently one of the most highest people look at my profile all the time, but nothing ever comes of it. And I think that they're curious. So maybe, uh... I don't know. Maybe I'm not- Does your profile have your, your, uh, website on it? Is it in the About section or in the header? I've... Uh, my website is not in the header, 'cause I think you have to pay extra.

I'm not on premium whatever. No, but you can put it in the image in your header. Ah, yeah. Um- Yeah, put your website in the he- the image in your header, because what I found out recently is that e- even if your website is listed in your contact information, unless someone's already connected to you, they can't see that.

Right. Okay. So you need to make sure that it's in your, your About Me section, or it's in your header image. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, my current header image is to promote my three-part series next week, which is a low-ticket three-day live group event to promo- you know, just Yeah, see, that's... I would not be promoting that on LinkedIn.

Yeah. That... A low-ticket i- offer is not a LinkedIn offer, right? Right. It's a Facebook offer Yeah. And s- you need to do free offers on LinkedIn to, because people pay you with their time. Yeah. Right? That's true. Because their time is more valuable than the people on Facebook. The average income, like, 10 years ago on Fa- on LinkedIn was $114,000 to the $54,000 average income on Facebook.

That number has only gone up, right? So I don't know what the numbers are today, but it's, you know, comparable, right? So, you know, you've, you have to give them something in order to get their time- Yeah ... on LinkedIn. Understand. Yep, yep, that makes perfect sense. Wow. You've been amazing, Kelle. You s- you know, just, just, just really, like, straight to it and just, like...

And actually, do you know what? Nothing you're telling me really surprises me, but I haven't been hearing it clearly and directly from someone who really, you know, i- is, you know, really established, I guess. You're talking clearly, you know, after decades, and that really shows. So

thank you, I really appreciate that so much. Yeah. Um, yeah. Thank you, um, I appreciate the compliment. So, um. Hello. Um. Yeah, I mean, it, you just have to get clear, right? You gotta get clear about who you serve and make sure that what you're giving is something that really appeals to them. And so, you know, the, whatever you do for, for free, the three parts sequence thing, um, I- don't do three parts.

They don't have time for that. That's- Give them one thing Yeah ... tell them what they're not saying out loud. If you can read their thoughts, like when I was s- selling to this market, I would constantly be talking to them about how they're living with a crushing level of anxiety that nobody else knows about, but because they, on the outside, they look like they've got it all together, that they are perfectionists and control freaks, and they have a plan and a backup plan and a backup plan for their backup plan, and they get more done in a day than most people get done in a week, and, and they're left exhausted and empty, right?

When you're, you're at the bottom of your own priority list w- and all you do is i- your, your definition of self-care is that you're gonna go buy yourself a dinner and get a massage, but that's not actually self-care. That is sticking a lollipop in the mouth of the crying toddler and saying, "Please stop crying."

That's not self-care. That is damage control, and when are you going to shift from damage control to true self-care, right? Yeah. That's the message. Yeah. Right? When you can tell them all the things that they don't say out loud, and feel free to steal that book, by the way. Um, when you can tell them everything they don't say out loud, they immediately trust you.

Okay? The, the sense of lack of a knowledge of who they are as a person. They're just like, they're, they're corporate drones, they're mothers, they're partners, they're friends. Who are you to yourself? Exactly. Who are you- Right? You... Yeah. How many roles are you trying to juggle? Yeah. And do any of them have a relationship to yourself?

Yeah. That's it. Right? That's the, that's the pain point, right? Yeah. Where do you fit in your life? If your life is about everybody else, you need to talk to me, right? That's- Yeah ... that's really the thing. Yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So you're kind of getting what I do, right? Through doing it through the body and movement and somatic dance and finding that lightness again and that joy and that in rediscovering part of your inner child, in fact.

You know, the, there's your child bit that's before you got tainted and damaged and like, you know- Yeah ... all the layers of everything. Be careful n- not to go too in depth into what you do. Yeah. Just so you know, I wanna be clear about, I mean, I understand what you're talking about, um, but in your marketing- Mm

do not go into the how, right? You wanna sell them the, the beach, not the plane trip. Yeah. Right? The, you wanna sell them the act of being on vacation, not getting to the vacation. So the, you wanna be very clear about what you do, and say, you know, "I take you through this process and this is how you feel when you're done."

Your benefit statements, not how I get you there, because they're control freaks, and they've, they wanna, they wanna control everything and you're like, you, you need to look at them and say, "I understand that you're a control freak, and I understand you wanna control the process, but the whole point of this is for you to allow yourself to just be and not to have to figure it all out."

Yeah. "And so you need to decide whether I have proven to you that I know what I'm talking about. Because if I do, then you need to just surrender to the process and let this happen. If you, if you don't think I know what I'm doing, then don't buy from me." And you need to be that solid about it, right?

Because if, if they start to be like, "Well, what are you doing here, and what are you doing there?" Because I would occasionally get people who would ask me for the curriculum for, for what I was doing. Right. And every single time I would give them the curriculum, they would not buy, okay? They're, because they're looking for a reason not to buy when they ask for the curriculum.

Well, creativity doesn't have a curriculum, so I suppose- Right ... you wanna kill your creativity, or you wanna get into flow, you know? The curriculum is, is, that's like a paradox. It's like that's a complete clash of intention. Right. So you're, you're trying to ask me to kill your creativity by telling you in advance what y- what you're gonna, what incredible things can come from you.

Right. So you need to be prepared to ask the, answer that question, though, because they will ask you from time to time, and you need to look at them and say, "I understand that you're trying to determine if this is right for you. What I need you to, to come back to is n- not what I'm teaching, but did I correctly describe you?

Because if I correctly described you, this is for you." Okay? That's how you help them to make the decision. Because they really want to do it. They're looking for a way out because their, their rational mind says, "I don't want to spend money on something I don't need, and I'm bottom of my own priority list, and so spending money on myself is not really a thing I do.

And so I'm trying to justify being bad to myself again," right? And so, you know, you need to look at them and say, you know, "This is time. It's... If, if the... If you recognized yourself in this description, I... and you're considering how you can't do this, I need to challenge you and say, look, this is you putting yourself at the bottom of your own priority list again.

Again. How many times is this gonna be you? Isn't it time to be done? Isn't it time that you get to come first?" Right? That's what you have to bring it back to

Okay? Yes. Yes, yes. Okay. Anything else you'd like to talk about your business before we wrap up?

Can't think right now, thank you. I think, I think you've given me plenty to think about, and it's quite... in a way it's quite simple about it. Uh, um, yeah, I... you know this whole spaghetti thing, and then I'm thinking I wanna speak more. I've done some speaking. And then again, this question of maybe you've done it, you know, do I offer three different talks?

Do I offer five different talks? Do I have one talk that I just always do a different angle so that everyone knows me for one thing? But I think that coming back to yourself is already quite a big topic that would have lots of It is a big topic ... different angles. It's a huge topic. Yeah. There's so many ways to come through it, and maybe that is, that i- I don't need to do anything else around it in that respect.

I mean, part of... also, I don't know if this is... sorry, before we wrap up, very quickly. So because I'm British-born Chinese, that's also been a thing, the displacement. Where do I belong? And so doing this is also a way of reconnecting to finding your inner roots, your inner support, right? Your inner sense of connection, no matter...

especially, I know in the States as well, uh, people literally have felt their ground shifting with every election and this and that. And so it's about finding that inner connection. And so sometimes I think this is when my mind starts going like this, you know. Okay, do I talk about, okay, so p- you know, there are...

I could even go and focus on, but I won't because it's not my group or skill set, you know, people who gen- tr- transgender people and gender fluidity or... do you know what I mean? There's so many- Okay. No, no, no ... different... I know. Of course not. Of course not. I'm, I'm just saying that, you know, th- this is, this is how we self-sabotage.

Yeah. Okay? I will tell you that I did this for years. For years I did the, "Well, I could, I could, I could, I could, I could." You need to do the thing that feels the yummiest to you. Pick it and stick with it. Okay? The, I think it's the executive market, but you need to pick a market. Okay? I, I really think that the spiritual market is not the right market.

So, um- I'm just thinking in terms of spiritual per se- Well, coaching- ... but- ... healing- Okay ... all of that. I, I think that's the wrong market. Okay. Okay? Yeah, okay. Um, it- the, the way that you're framing it is it's too niche, it's too short a time period, it's too short. It just... And, and those people already have access to the stuff that you're talking about in a lot of cases.

And so the... it's a harder sell. You know, if you're selling to people who are already selling to other people, it's a harder sell. Unless it's gonna make them money, it's, it's just difficult, right? But if you're selling to people who already don't have access to that, that's an easier sell, right? So I want you to pick a group that isn't already doing something similar.

Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard not to... it's... I just wanna say, so in person, I'm always gonna get people who are in healing professions, and creative people, and all those kind of people, the people that all come to in-person things. Yeah. Which is why I automatically thought, "Okay, that's the group I..."

Because I know them, I'm familiar with them. I've worked in healing areas myself at festivals. I give workshops, I give talks. And so when people in that area, people come. But you're right, the people who really need it aren't those people actually. Well, and the people that you're talking to, they're probably not at the success level that you're talking about, the people at events.

That's very true. Yeah. They're still in the beginner stages. Right? And they don't have the money Yeah, they certainly don't have the money. That's always been my conundrum. Like, oh, no. Yeah 'Cause a lot of them are my friends, which is- Right ... or, or, you know, like my, you know, people I know, a lot of them don't have a lot of money.

It's true. Right. Maybe I should drop the word healer completely. Oh my God. Yes. I'll have to think about it. Um- Um, e- I think you really should because the people in the beginning stages of these levels of work, they don't have the money yet. They haven't figured out how to make their businesses work yet.

They haven't gotten the money coming in. They haven't gotten out of their way in, in anything that they're, they're trying to do financially yet. Um, and so they're not gonna have the money to do what you wanna do. They're in survival mode financially, right? So you, you can't... They're the people you have to build it into a business thing for.

You don't wanna do that, okay? So you're much better off catching the people before they chuck their lives and say, "Let me help you be happier where you are," right? Or pivot. Yeah. Well- A lot of them might decide from doing this kind of work, a lot of them might decide to go out and do something else if they have the courage.

Sure, and that's fine too. But to- That's fine ... to bring them back to themselves when they're in a place to pay for that. Yes. Right? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So I don't, I don't... Wherever you take them is wherever you take them. That's gonna depend on the person, but you want to be targeting a market that has cash. Yes.

And otherwise you're just spinning your wheels. I told you all the things, Katie. What did you think I was gonna say?

And yet, you know, I, I, I'm guilty of the same thing, just so you know. I've done that. So- Oh, yeah ... you know, this is the piece that, that I want you to really get. Okay. And this is why I was leaning into the corporate world. Yeah. Because those, those are gonna be the people who have cash. And that's why I've maybe still been on LinkedIn for some reason.

Somehow I haven't been able to completely cut myself off. Yeah. Ugh, and that's probably why. Probably. Probably. Yeah. I would say, 'cause that's the obvious place I would look for clients from there. Yeah. Wow. Lots to think about, Katie. They're also on Facebook, by the way, though. They are on Facebook. They are.

And I, I can't... Yeah, I mean, uh, yeah, I can't just... Yeah, yeah, I need to still do Facebook. And I, they all do... Ah, anyway, that, that's another- I would say- ... I've taken more of your time ... here's, here's what I would do if I was you, okay? Mm-hmm. If I were you and I had the market, the, uh, I'm targeting the market of the executive and, you know, director level and above corporate women, uh, and a few good men, uh, then what I would say is- I would test, right?

So I would test on LinkedIn. Okay, that was loud. That's very loud. Oh, sorry, sorry. The paper, yeah, sorry. Okay. So I would test on LinkedIn. I would give yourself a three-month test and do LinkedIn events, LinkedIn outreach, LinkedIn... You know, you'd get on there every day, and you're commenting on people who are your target market, and you're engaging with their posts and all the stuff.

Really go all in on LinkedIn for three months and see what you get, okay? If you get business from that, then great. Keep doing it. If it doesn't deliver what you had hoped, then I would go to Facebook and I would do another three-month all-in test and do it that way. Now, what you do on LinkedIn and what you do on Facebook are gonna be different things Okay?

LinkedIn, you're gonna do short, uh, introductory things, and you're going to not ask for a lot of time from people, right? But you're going to make posts, and you're gonna make comments, and you're gonna have events, and you're gonna do that sort of thing. But you're not doing an all-day event on LinkedIn.

People on LinkedIn don't have time for an all-day event. I mean, these, these coaches out there right now doing three-day events, I'm just like, oh my God, I'm exhausted. I do not wanna be on a call for, for more than an hour, really, honestly. And the people who are doing two to four-hour events, I'm like, oh my God, I just wanna kill myself, right?

Yeah. It's just, I'm like, why? Right? And so, you know, you gotta keep it short and sweet, but you gotta make it powerful. Yeah. Okay? So that is one piece. And then the other, i- if you're on Facebook, you're doing Facebook Lives. You're doing, uh, the posts that have a, a freebie to a, a, uh, a small upsell thing. You know, that's, that's Facebook.

But if you're targeting the person who is from LinkedIn on Facebook- Yeah ... then you have to do things that are more high-end. You have to do the sideways sales letter. You have to do the... And you can look that up. That's- Yeah ... that's a John Wall thing. Yeah. But y- you do a w- a webinar, right? Um, you're doing lives to get people's attention.

You're doing... Although lives are iffy right now. They were, they were working great, and now they're sort of like eh, right? But you'll do ads and retargeting, and you'll do things like that, right? Yeah. But you have to... I- it's more of a webinar and a live approach than a, you know, a prerecorded thing or something like that, right?

Yeah. So y- your goal is to give people a chance to know, like, and trust you. Yeah. Right? This is why I love doing my podcast is because it's my built-in know, like, and trust. Yeah. People have... You know, I've had people who have been following me for eight years, right? And then they call me, and they're like, "Oh, I've been following you for eight years."

I'm like, "Well, I did not do my job, because you should've called me long before this," right? Like... But, but I'm glad to hear from you, right? Yes, yes. Um, so you know, that sort of thing is you need to develop a know, like, trust factor for them. Yeah. And so there's gotta be a way where they can engage if they choose.

But most of these people are not going to engage on your posts. They're gonna lurk. Yeah. Okay? So you're gonna get zero engagement for a long time, and then out of the blue, somebody's gonna book. And you're not on Instagram, Kelle, or not really? I'm on Instagram, but I'm not... I don't create content for Instagram.

I cross-post from other places. Yeah. Yep, yep. Yeah. Yeah, I'm only on there because a lot of the people are on there. Yeah. Right? I don't like Instagram personally. I, I find it very shallow- Yeah ... in what it does, and I'm just, it's not my thing. Uh, but I'm on there just to have a presence, so. Yeah, I felt that.

Yeah, I've been through all of it, going through all of that shallow and this and that, and it's like hasn't helped me go forwards. Just very circular, so, but, um- Yeah. It can be. Doing your own marketing is one of the hardest things in the world. I, I have traded other marketers advice because they can't see their business clearly enough, and I can't see my business clearly enough, and so we do it for each other because we, we can very clearly see everybody else's business- Yeah

but your own, you're too close to it. It is very hard. I, I wanna just let you know that it is hard, and you should not feel bad about not having figured it out immediately. It's just, it's hard, and it's a process. I, I had to embrace failing forward. Yeah. That's how you get past it is you have to say, "Okay, what did I learn from this failure, and how do I take it forward?"

Right? Because we're all gonna screw up. We're all gonna do things that don't work. All of marketing is a test. Every last thing you do in marketing is a test. So you're testing this, you're testing that, you're testing the other thing, and you iterate. You don't throw the baby out with the bath water. You tweak this, you tweak that, you, you tweak- Yeah

one thing at a time until you figure out what works. Yeah. So you tweak your title, you tweak your image, you tweak the content, but only this line. You tweak, you know, you just- Yeah ... one thing at a time, test again. One thing at a time, test again. It, it is mind-numbingly boring. Yeah. It's just, I hate it with a passion, but it's the way it works.

Yeah. Right? Yeah, yeah. And that's how you figure it out. Yeah. Yes, I have been learning this also. Um,

yes, actually, yeah, you have to be a marketer first. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've been working on the SEO and AEO on the podcast over the last three, four months, and have doubled the downloads, more than doubled the downloads. And we're, we're only, you know, a third of the way through the process, and it's exhausting.

It's just like there's so much to do, right? It's easy. Yeah. But it, it does it, and it's worthwhile. It's just, it's- Yeah ... it's like not m- not my favorite thing to do ever. No, that's why I also, I... my new website's got a better blog. It's a WordPress, and that's why. I, I don't wanna... yeah, I wanna eventually have i- in- You know, if people coming in from SEO.

Is there a big difference between SEO and AI, AEO then? Is it more the AEO is more the phrases that people converse, SEO is specific keywords, right? Whereas the AI might be more- SEO is, SEO is specific keywords, AEO is what, uh, AI is going to find. So AEO is very much about the l- the conversation being had, the questions, the long tail questions that people ask, and having that answer pre- presented in the first paragraph of what you have on the page is really what AEO is about.

So it, it's, it's a different approach, but your, your SEO terms will be included in that AEO result, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They'll com- they'll, they'll, um, support each other kind of thing. Yes. Yeah, strengthen it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Wow. Well, that was, um, time well spent as far as for me anyway, Kelle. Thank you so much.

I hope, um- You're very welcome ... I, I hope the people who watch this will also get stuff out of it. I am certain that they did. So, uh, how would people find you if they're, if they've now heard about you and they're like, "Oh my God, I need what she has"? So my website is my name, Elena Sue, elenasue.com. And on my social...

Uh, my LinkedIn is Elena Sue. On my social media, it's all Elena Sue. Well, on YouTube, elenasue.neodance, N-I-I-O, new integrated and inspired openings, Neodance. And on Facebook and anything else it would, and Instagram, uh, Elena Sue, um, line Neodance or .neodance. Okay. So that's it really. So quite straightforward, but my website anyway is this, is, is what you can see up there, my name, Elena Sue.

Okay. Yeah. So super easy to find you. Just search for your name and, and you'll find it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Fantastic. So thank you so much for being so honest on the show and letting, letting people be able to see what's truly happening in your business, 'cause that's the way people learn, and that's the way that they get to figure things out with you while you're doing your work here.

So, uh, that is incredibly generous of you, and I really appreciate you being on the show. And guys, if you're listening and you hear- learn something, please share this with somebody who needs to know it too. Uh, there are so many people who are going through exactly the same experience that Elena's going through and, uh, and I wanna make sure that they get that information as well.

So please like, subscribe, share, and rate. And remember, what you focus on expands. What you intend is what you create, so choose wisely.