Artwork for podcast So Curious!
Is Marriage Worth It?
Episode 1130th August 2022 • So Curious! • The Franklin Institute
00:00:00 00:32:56

Share Episode

Shownotes

In this episode, Kirstin and Bey are talking all about the marriage. Historian Dr. Rebecca Davis shares about her research in how the institution of marriage has changed over the years. Later on the episode, Dr. Das shares her research on how mammals create relationships with one another.

Links for this episode:

Transcripts

Speaker:

Hello, friends, and welcome to So Curious, presented by the Franklin Institute.

Speaker:

We are your hosts- I am the Bul Bey.

Speaker:

And I am Kirstin Michelle Cills.

Speaker:

Bey and I are so stoked to bring you this

Speaker:

season all about the science behind love, sex, and relationships.

Speaker:

So far, we've talked about everything from

Speaker:

your brain on love, to why we obsess over our favorite television characters to how

Speaker:

science and tech are changing our relationships with each other.

Speaker:

Okay, so all season we've been talking

Speaker:

about science and all different aspects of relationships.

Speaker:

I think it's time to tackle the elephant in the room... Marriage.

Speaker:

The ring on the finger.

Speaker:

In this episode, we are talking to historian Dr.

Speaker:

Rebecca Davis about how the institution of

Speaker:

marriage, as we know it actually came to be.

Speaker:

And later, Dr.

Speaker:

Jayatri Das will be back to talk to us

Speaker:

about what the science world is saying about marriage.

Speaker:

Okay, so do you want to get married now?

Speaker:

This is so sudden.

Speaker:

We work together, be professional.

Speaker:

I'm sorry.

Speaker:

I don't really know what I think about marriage.

Speaker:

Both my parents have been married three times.

Speaker:

I definitely think that marriage is great if you find the right person.

Speaker:

I also think that there's a lot of room in the world for marriage to not necessarily

Speaker:

be to one person for the rest of your life.

Speaker:

It often isn't that way, whether that was by design or by things not working out.

Speaker:

I sound like a downer.

Speaker:

No.

Speaker:

I'm going to be Kirsten's translator- nah- it's a no for me.

Speaker:

Not for me dog. Yeah.

Speaker:

No.

Speaker:

But it was definitely interesting to understand and know that all the things

Speaker:

that we don't talk about, what we know, people get married for status, resource,

Speaker:

all these different things have always been at play.

Speaker:

So it's nice to know that we weren't crazy and we haven't been crazy.

Speaker:

But it's also nice to know we're all considering different things.

Speaker:

I don't think I'm getting married for money or titles or anything like that.

Speaker:

And it's nice to rethink and assess these things personally, individually.

Speaker:

Yeah, there are definitely benefits to

Speaker:

marriage in many ways, but also there's a lot of societal pressure.

Speaker:

Also, a lot of people get married because they're like, well, all my friends are,

Speaker:

and I don't do it now, when am I going to do it right?

Speaker:

And it's nice to have historical context to even project into the future.

Speaker:

It's like, what is marriage going to look like 50 years from now?

Speaker:

Because these behaviors are going to change and that's going to change how we

Speaker:

interact with our environment in so many different ways.

Speaker:

All these different things were really

Speaker:

interesting to kind of, like, delve into and navigate.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

And our first guest is a true actual expert on marriage.

Speaker:

So let's introduce our first guest, marriage historian Dr.

Speaker:

Rebecca Davis.

Speaker:

Thank you so much for having me on the podcast.

Speaker:

One of the books that you have here in the

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

the American Search for Marital Bliss".

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Tell us about the findings in the book,

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

your research, and reflect on that book a little bit.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

This is a book about how self styled experts of various kinds taught Americans

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

how to be husbands and wives in the 20th century.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And they did that very often through what we know as marriage counseling.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And marriage counseling could be something that's called marital counseling or

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

couples counseling, but it was very often less formal than that.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

It was ministers and rabbis meeting with couples in the weeks leading up to their

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

marriages or meeting with them in crisis counseling afterward.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

It was social workers at family service agencies, and it was professional

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

psychologists and psychiatrists in other formats.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And it really takes off in the United

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

States in the 1930s, and of course, it's still around today.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

So what I found in the book was a surprising concern with heterosexuality.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

I wanted to know what ministers and rabbis who were starting to

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

get more and more open to psychology ministers and rabbis said, we need to get

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

a little bit more savvy about how to give counseling.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And so they started to read up on social science and psychology.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

They formed journals and societies, and they started to introduce psychology

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

classes into their seminaries to train rabbis and ministers.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And so I was really interested, well, what did they think about homosexuality?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Because in the 1930s, 1940s, 1950s,

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

professional psychology was starting to define homosexuality as a mental illness.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And that was all sort of happening then.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

The shift from seeing same sex desire as either just an aberration or more

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

negatively, as a sin was becoming more defined as a psychological problem.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

What happens by the period that I was

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

starting to look at in the was a fear that there was latent homosexuality present and

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

that that was explaining people's levels of dissatisfaction with their lives.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

So what I found I was looking through the indexes of these journals.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

This is the nuts and bolts of historical research.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

It's not a Google search.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

It's hours and hours in dusty libraries,

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

pulling journals off the shelf, looking at the index, all of the articles in these

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

journals where clergy are trying to learn how to be psychologically more astute

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

homosexuality is mentioned in articles about marriage, why on earth were they

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

talking about homosexuality in the context of marriage?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

This is obviously decades and decades

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

before any sort of national debate over same sex marriage.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And that was not what they were talking about.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

They were worried about a sort of psychoanalytic idea of the latent

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

homosexual, that children have a sort of innate

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

bisexuality, but you're supposed to mature into heterosexuality.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And so adult maturity and heterosexuality go together.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

This was like understood science of that.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

This was understood mental health sort of baseline of the time.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And so that homosexuality then means that

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

a person hasn't fully psychologically matured.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Their psychosexual development has been,

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

quote unquote, arrested in an adolescent or stage.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

You are blowing my mind right now.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

So then if you say, okay, why is this woman hesitant about marriage?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Or why is she really dissatisfied with her marriage?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Maybe she has latent lesbian tendencies as they would talk about it.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

So one of the things that has changed

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

that's in the background of all of this is that it's become easier to get divorced.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

I remember seeing something online, I don't know the exact date that they were

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

saying, but it was like when people say people who are maybe like elderly now

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

well, in my day people didn't get divorced like this.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

It's like, well, women weren't allowed to

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

have their own bank accounts until 1970 something.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Is that correct? That's correct, yeah.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And so it's like it really has nothing to

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

do with people being less happy with each other.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

It's just a matter of logistics.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

So one of the other things though, that's happened is that this idea that "you're

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

supposed to be happy in your marriage" had to come along first.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

So that is also changing.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And so the idea that marriage is about romance, that marriage is a choice that

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

two people make and that they should expect a certain level of happiness and

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

companionship has been around for about 300 years in any sort of broad way.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

That doesn't mean that there weren't

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

couples thousands of years ago who loved one another.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

But the broader purposes of marriage were not mutual compatibility and emotional

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

satisfaction, let alone sexual satisfaction.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

That's far more recent.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

That's also when you have easier divorce options.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

You have women's increasing economic

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

independence, and then you have all these experts saying, "oh wow, we've got to find

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

a way to keep these people together" and there you have marriage counseling.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Good point.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

If making the decision about marriage is not financial anymore, what would you say

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

are some of the main factors that you see people are getting married?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Why are people getting married in 2022?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

I think marriage still is an economic strategy for a lot of people.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

I was just listening to a radio story, I

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

think yesterday about what the student loan repayment reprieve has meant for

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

people in their twenty's and their thirties over the last 18 months or two

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

years or however long it's been and I think that we can't underestimate the

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

degree to which pooling resources remains a strategy for a lot of people.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

The acceptance around cohabitation though,

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

is completely different now than it was in years past.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

This idea that you and a person you're

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

affectionately bound to, someone you love, to put it simply, could live together.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

I like "affectionately bound to".

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Yeah because sometimes these relationships are sexual, sometimes they're not.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

But this idea of setting up house with someone because you want to live with them

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

and make a home with them, I think that's still very appealing to a lot of people.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

I think it's still an economic strategy.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

There was always jokes when I was living in New York City in my early twenties, and

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

there was always this joke that people moved in together so quickly because rent

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

was so high, and it was like you couldn't afford an apartment on your own.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

I think this idea of

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

building a lasting relationship with a particular individual that will bring you

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

all kinds of community and satisfaction, I think that remains very appealing but

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

we have a legal structure that still privileges marriage.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Makes it so much easier in so many ways.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

If you want to have certain parental rights and if you want to

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

have certain understandings when you pay your taxes with Social Security- there are

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

all kinds of ways in which marriage remains economically beneficial

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

and just sort of legally simplifies a lot of stuff.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

If you want to be recognized as somebody's

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

person, it's much easier to do that if you're legally married to them.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Yeah.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And so I know you serve as a producer and a story editor for a podcast.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Could you tell us a little bit about that? Sure.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

The Sexing History podcast started in 2017, and it was an effort by a group of

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

historians of sexuality to take some of the audio archives of this history and

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

bring them to a wider audience and to tell stories that we don't otherwise hear and

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

to show in many ways how this history is still relevant.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Wonderful.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Yeah, I definitely got to take a listen to that.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

What do you hope your students take away

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

from your teachings and your findings and research?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

One of my very favorite classes to teach is an introductory survey course called

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

American Sexualities, and I'm happy to say its a very popular course.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

I had 165 plus students take it online the last time I taught it.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And what I teach in that course is that, all of these things have a history.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

That the things we might think about, but when people talk about what's natural or

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

traditional, that doesn't really mean anything to a historian.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Historians don't talk about, you know, whether we've lost a tradition.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

We see all these things as ever changing.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

So what I hope my students take away from it is

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

I hope that the next time they hear someone talking about, well, that's not

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

natural or that's not traditional, they have the tools to stop and say, in fact, I

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

think I understand that's an a historical way to think about that question.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

I hope my students, particularly a lot of my students, are

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

themselves in the process of coming out, or they're transitioning, or they have

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

loved ones and family members who are LGBTQ plus, or

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

my students who have had abortions, my students who've had various experiences

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

with using different kinds of contraception.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

The students are in the room because

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

something very close to them relates to the topic of the course, and

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

they're there to try to figure out, am I new?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Is there a history to me or to my loved one or my friend?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

How do I fit in? Where is my story?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Where is my history?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

What's the answer to some of those questions?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Am I new? Where's my history?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Where's my story? Yeah, I love those questions.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And what I tell my students is this, that, for instance, with trans history, which is

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

really exciting, there's tons of new work being done in it right now.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

With trans history, I can talk to them about a person

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

who arrived in colonial Virginia around 1620, I believe it was 1627 or 1628.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And this person

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

changed their name and their gender during the process of immigration,

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

but also had previously had multiple gender identities prior to emigrating and

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

fought as a soldier, but also worked as a seamstress and would wear the attire

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

appropriate and the hairstyle appropriate and the gender pronouns appropriate to

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

those roles and was a domestic servant in a female social role in Virginia and

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

got caught in bed with a maid, another indentured servant.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And the question was, could fornication have occurred?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Fornication in colonial Virginia meant sex outside of marriage?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And that's especially for indentured

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

servants the landowners wanted to control their working population, and pregnancy

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

really affects the management of your household.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Right.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

So, like, we're getting historical tea right now.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Yes.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

So this person who goes by the name Thomas or Thomasine is brought before the court

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

and basically asked, "are you man or woman?" And Thomas Thomasine says, I am

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

both, and I have parts of both and refuses the question.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And there are these invasive bodily

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

inspections of them by local women, which was a practice dating back to

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Middle Ages in Europe, that midwives and the local women would be called upon to

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

provide evidence and allegations of impotence and other things like that.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

There are other people who decide it's up

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

to them to sort of pull up the pull off the bed sheets and inspect Thomas

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Thomasine's body- and ultimately, the court rules that

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

this person must wear elements of both genders clothing.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

At the time there's no androgynous clothing in the 17th century.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

There's very much females and dresses and

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

people understood as men in different breaches and other clothes.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And then they kind of go about their life, and there's no other record of them.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

They're not jailed.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

They're not expelled from the colony.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

What an icon.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Wow.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

I tell my students, so if you feel that your gender is nonbinary, if you feel that

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

you are trans, there are people in the past who also felt that.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

That said, they didn't have the word transgender.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

There was no sense of trans rights.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

There was no sense of a broader queerness that would have given someone

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

a man who desired sex with a man, would not have had any social framework, any

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

idea that he had anything in common with this non binary person.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

So I tell my students, I'm a little

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

hesitant to say there are transgender people throughout history.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

I'm absolutely comfortable saying there are people who lived outside the bounds of

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

their time's gender norms throughout history.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

I would ask you, as a historian, how important is it to have these stories

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

documented, saved, shared, and disseminated?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

What's amazing is that the courts in

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

colonial Virginia, a lot of those records survived.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Even in the case of Thomas Thomasine, there are places where the

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

document is so frayed or parts of it have ripped off that you lose part of it.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

There's a place where Thomas Thomasin describes their body, and we only have

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

part of what they said about how they understood their body.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

So that's a loss.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

But there's so much more now that you can get from these sources from 500 years ago

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

that have been digitized, and you can find them online.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

I'm curious. So you expressed to us off mic when you

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

first got here something that I found really interesting, which is that people

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

tend to ask you, how do I make a marriage work?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Which is not your field at all. Right?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

You're on the historical side of marriage.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Is there any research in what you've been doing about how people have answered that

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

question in the past and how it's changed over the course you've been looking over?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

One of the big theories around the mid 20th century was that the more alike you

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

are in every way except gender, the more likely you are to have a good marriage.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

So you want men to be manly and women to

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

be feminine, but otherwise, same religion, same race and ethnicity better.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

That both.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Either come from rural or both from suburban, you know, on and on and on.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And so a whole host of people start to

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

create tests and questionnaires that they give to engaged couples to see.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Well, before you go to the altar, let's

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

double check that you have a chance of sort of longterm happiness.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Wow.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And psychologists had been working on personality tests by that point.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

The 1920s is sort of when the first intelligence tests are rolled out.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And by the 1930s, they've taken some of

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

those questions and others and created personality tests.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And they also thought that they could

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

administer modified versions of these personality tests to engage people to

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

figure out if their personalities were compatible.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Is this science?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Would you consider that science?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

They considered it science.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Yeah. Nice answer.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

This is a great segue into our last question, which is, what can you tell us

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

about the very sought after narrative of finding a soulmate?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Has there been research on that data history?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Great question.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Thank you.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

It was something that I tried to think about when I was writing More Perfect

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Unions- this idea that marriage will bring you this ultimate happiness.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

it is both a motivating drive for a lot of people to go out and date and find

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

a partner, but it also becomes a source of a lot of disappointment and frustration.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

So I don't know what it's like today to be

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

going through that, but it becomes a source of dissatisfaction for a lot of

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

people when they find out that people with the sort of cliche, the

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

honeymoon is over and they have to deal with life as it is.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

So this idea that there is someone who is a soulmate is probably I don't actually

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

know precisely, but I'm guessing it's an idea about 100 to 150 years old.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

In the 19th century and early 20th, we

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

have lots of examples of men writing passionately romantic letters to other men

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

and then getting married to women and vice versa.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And we sort of have to guess about when

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

those passionate relationships were also erotic or in fact, realized as sexual.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

But what's totally obvious is that people found passionate intimacy from a variety

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

of people, not just their spouses, and that it was important to them that these

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

friendships were central to how they got through the day.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

So there are letters from two young men

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

from Michigan who served in the Civil War together.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

They went all the way with Sherman's Army down to Atlanta, and they wrote letters to

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

one another where they referred to one as husband and wife.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

They talked about their

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

keeping warm together in the tent on the march, and they showed these letters to

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

their sisters, who would add postscripts because the families knew each other, so

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

there was no secrecy around this and then each young man got married.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

They continued to write letters, but they

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

said, well, maybe don't show your wife this one in some of them but

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

marriage was the way you went about for these men going to the Dakota Territory,

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

getting some land, starting an adult life but their passionate relationship, their

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

greatest emotional intimacy, was with another man.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

So this much more 20th century idea and now 21st, that you have one person

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

with whom you're supposed to have your most intense sexual, emotional,

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

coparenting or cohabiting relationship is all in one person.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Is that's a lot?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

That's a lot.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

So I don't know if people are finding their soulmates more than they used to or

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

not, but this very notion is part of the way in which we've moved

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

our culture has been very negative toward kinship based models.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

The whole negative connotation around African American family

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

strategies that comes out from the 19th century into the debates over social

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

welfare programs in the 20th, that denigration of alternate family forms

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

happens at the same time that people are saying, no, it's just marriage.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

It's a man and a woman in one household raising their children.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

That's what a healthy household looks like.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

That's what happiness looks like.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And that's where you find your soulmate is

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

through that rather than through broader networks of kin or a wider number of

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

people with whom you have different kinds of intimacy.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Incredible. Dr.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Rebecca Davis, thank you for coming in.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Thank you so much.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

It was a real pleasure.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Thanks so much to Dr.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Rebecca Davis.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Now that we have an understanding of where

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

marriage came from, let's talk about cockroaches.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

I say we jump right into our next segment to debrief about the science side of

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

marriage with chief bioscientist at the Franklin Institute, Dr.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Jayatri Das.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Or a segment we all know and love called Body of Knowledge.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Hey, Jayatri. Hi, Kirsten.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Hi, Bey. Hey, how are you?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Good Good.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

This is a topic that I am fascinated by

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

because it's a place where the advancement of scientific technology has really

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

changed scientists perception of relationships in the animal world.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

So let me tell you a little bit what I mean.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

So before the advent of DNA fingerprinting, scientists thought that

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

there were lots of species that were monogamous for life.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

So if we think about what we perceive as marriage, as having lifelong relationships

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

with the same mate, people thought that there are lots of

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

species that had that same kind of behavior.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

But then in the 1990s, we developed the

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

technology to do DNA fingerprinting- imagine a simple way is just think about

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

how paternity tests work in the courts, right?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

So imagine that we now have the technology

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

to do paternity tests not just for humans, but for any species.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And suddenly we realize that all of these animals that we thought were getting

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

married, so to speak, or being monogamous throughout their life, we're not.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

We were fingerprinting their offspring and

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

realizing that females were mating with different males.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

So even if there's what we call pair

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

bonding between a male and a female that raise offspring together and spend time

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

together, they still occasionally mate with other animals outside of their bond.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And so that really changed the perception

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

of what we think of as monogamy and marriage in the scientific world.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And some scientists now are thinking that,

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

well, maybe we had those assumptions beforehand because of our own bias of

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

thinking about marriage from our human experience.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

I was going to say every cartoon loves to portray this happy husband and wife fish

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

in the sea looking for their son Nemo or whatever.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And it's like, no, they probably have plenty of other people on the side.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Right?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Bunch of other fish. Yeah.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

So to put that into perspective, let's look at mammals first.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

If you look at any two individuals of a

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

monogamous species, they may have made it for life.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

But if you look at the entire species, not a single mammal species has been

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

definitively shown to be actually monogamous.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

So even if you look more broadly at thinking about social monogamy, where you

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

do kind of maybe hook up with other animals here and there.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

It's still only like three to 5% of all

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

the mammal species on Earth practice any form of monogamy.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Wow. Damn.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

People aren't ready for that conversation, are they?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Well, hopefully they're having that conversation.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

It's important to add.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

It's really important.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Can you give me a few minutes to talk about cockroaches?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

As I was reading about this, this one species of cockroach just hooked me

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

because I'm so fascinated by how their mating systems work.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And it's a species of a Japanese cockroach

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

that are one of the only species that have been found to be truly monogamous.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And we know this because after they mate,

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

they eat each other's wings so that they are literally locked into where they live.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Literally tied down.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

They are literally tied down because they can't leave.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Oh, my gosh.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Sounds like a toxic relationship to me. I don't don't know.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

They eat each other's wings.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

There's lots of examples where like, the

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

female might eat the male or things like that.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

But no, this is mutual.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Yeah, because I was thinking about is it

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

grasshoppers that the female rips the head off of the map?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

I like praying mantises.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Yeah, but this is a mutual understanding that they're both going to.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

That doesn't sound pleasant. And it's like, you know who goes first?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

We don't shame what anybody's into here.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

This Japanese researcher named Haruka Osaki discovered this and she videotaped

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

pairs of cockroaches and found out that they literally eat each other's wings.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And it's probably beneficial for them

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

because they live in these really tight spaces.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

So once you've found your mate, you don't need to look anymore.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

So why not just get rid of your wings by eating them?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

And then you are a better fit for your

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

house and you don't need to go anywhere anymore.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

That resonates. Right?

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Because once you're in a relationship, delete that tinder app.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Delete all those other things, man, this is permanent.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Yeah, but there are other examples of animals that practice some sort of

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

monogamy, like prairie or another example of a rodent that does this.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

So I wouldn't classify them too

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

specifically, but this particular behavior is really unique.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Yeah, because I'm not biting anyone.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Just not going to do that.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Well, now that we've heard from the science world, we are going to take this

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

time to see what average people are thinking about as it relates to marriage.

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

For this segment, we are going to take to the Internet to see what the most popular

tudio is "More Perfect Unions:

Google searches are surrounding our episode topic.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Google Autofill.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

So we went into the old Google and typed

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

in "Is Marriage..?" And let Google fill the rest for us.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

So the first thing that came up was "is

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

marriage for me?" Question mark- maybe in like 30 to 40 years, right?

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Pairing and bonding and being with someone.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

We're still social animals.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

We're asking really good questions about

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

monogamy, really good questions about polyamory, but we're social, so

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

hopefully you'll be around someone or group of people into your golden years.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Maybe we learned a little bit about the history of marriage and how those social

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

pressures influence that kind of a decision.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

You know, there's some social pressures.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

There's always a grand mom around like, I want some kids.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

So the Googler Engine then told me, I just

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

wanted to know, "is there a marriage for me?

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

quiz- a lot of people wanted to know this, is there a marriage for Me quiz?

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

There probably is. I don't know.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

That's kind of interesting.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

I bet there are some correlations to personality traits and psychology that

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

predict whether someone is more likely to get married than somebody else.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Yeah. And there's like Love Language Quizzes and

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

everything where you can find better the way you want to be loved and all of that.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

But the way that this is phrased makes me

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

think someone's looking for a BuzzFeed quiz.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

It's like, tell me your coffee order and

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

I'll tell you if you're going to get married.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Ice grande. Yeah.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

What is it? Two pump.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

This is not I'm just making this up.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

You're not getting married.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Just give me a straight black coffee. That's all I want.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Okay. You're getting married.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Okay. So moving on.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

We put into the Google Engine, is marriage religious?

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Is marriage religious? Used to be, right?

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Probably. Yeah.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

And yet we have adopted it as a non religious custom.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

There's some definite interplay between how religious norms get integrated into

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

broader culture and how that may have evolved from some

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

sort of social benefit of long term monogamy.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

The church. Yeah, right.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Because it was at one point a religious

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

thing, and now you don't have to be religious.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

You can get married by anybody.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Not necessarily a clergy person. Right.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Yeah. Marriage is a mystery to me.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Certainly that pressure for marriage goes cross cultural.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Not necessarily one religion here.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Yeah. Right.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Somebody who's not coming from the Christian church.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Big thanks to Dr.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Davis, Dr.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Das, for joining us on this episode of So Curious.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

And next week will be our final episode of the season.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

And in true dramatic, theatrical fashion,

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

our final episode will be all about Ghosting.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Because when this season ends, isn't that really just Bey and I ghosting?

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

This and more on next week's episode.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

So please subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen to rate us.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Talk about how fun we are.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Talk about how great my voice is.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Talk about Bey.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Ask him to rap for you, all those things. Okay.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Yeah. Leave us some messages.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

We want to know how much you love this podcast.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Yeah. And I am the Bul Bey.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

And I am Kirsten michelle Cills and we will see you next week.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Bye bye.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

So Curious is presented by the Franklin Institute.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Special thanks to Franklin Institute producers Joy Montefusco and Dr.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Jayatri Das.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

This podcast is produced by Radio Kismet.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Radio Kismet is Philadelphia's premier podcast production studio.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

Head of operations is Christopher Plant.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

The managing producers Emily Charash the producers Lilianna Green.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

The lead audio engineer and editor is Christian Cederlund.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

The editors are Lauren DeLuca and Justin Berger.

So this is Body of Knowledge:

:

The science writer is Kira Villette and the graphic designer is Emma Sager.

Chapters

Video

More from YouTube