In this episode of the Professional Photographer podcast, Pat Miller sits down with Mary Fisk-Taylor, a 30-year photography industry veteran, to discuss the often-difficult topic of pricing your work. Mary shares her journey of transitioning from pure passion to running a profitable photography studio, offering advice on overcoming the fear of charging what you're truly worth. She emphasizes the importance of balancing creativity with data-driven business decisions to ensure long-term sustainability in a competitive market.

Mary also highlights the impact of industry trends, including the rise of Artificial Intelligence (AI), and how staying authentic and knowing your numbers can give photographers an edge. From delegating tasks to prioritizing profit over passion, this episode provides practical strategies for photographers looking to thrive financially while still pursuing their creative dreams.

Episode Highlights 🎤💡:

(09:15) - Discover why passion is key to overcoming sacrifices and delivering photography that clients will cherish for generations.

(19:37) - Learn how valuing your skills can reshape client expectations and improve fair compensation in photography.

(35:55) - Explore three simple strategies for paying yourself as a photographer and improving your financial stability.

Connect with Pat Miller ⬇

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Connect with Mary Fisk-Taylor⬇

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I'm Pat Miller, and this is The Professional Photographer Podcast. You're not building a garage sale or something that you'll make money on just for a few months. No. You wanna build a studio that supports you and your family for years to come and something that can grow and meet and eventually surpass your financial goals and dreams. We're not here to play business, but it seems that every time that we turn around, there's some new challenge or unprecedented news events and everything seems to be getting harder. Well, what does it take to build a studio that can stand the test of time? What's important? Maybe better yet, what feels important but really isn't? On this episode of the show, we're talking with Mary Fisk-Taylor, who's built and operated her studio for decades. And we're not just gonna talk about that feel-good stuff. Uh- uh. We're gonna ask the real questions about focus, decision-making, and finances, so you can get what you need to build and sustain your studio for decades to come. If you're curious about what it takes to build a studio that lasts, you're gonna love this episode. We'll be back with Mary Fisk-Taylor. Mary, welcome to The Professional Photographer Podcast. How are you today?

I'm great. How are you, Pat?

I'm good. I'm excited to have this conversation because it's kind of a weird time. Does it feel like a weird time? Like, we have business coming in, but when we look forward into fourth quarter, things might get a little bit weird. Are you feeling that way too?

Yeah. So full disclosure, Pat, before I ever dreamed I was gonna be in the photography industry, my majors and my degrees are all in political science and international affairs, so I'm still a big political science nerd. I'm still a politics nerd. So, yes, I, and because we've been in business for a while, I've got the data. Election years are a little funky, especially when you're working with people's disposable income. So, yeah, it's a little weird. I'm very optimistic, and I'm manifesting amazing things, but it's a little weird. It's a little bit weird. I was just, you know, I was mentioning that I try trying to be as busy as possible now. I'm pretty much telling my clients, let's just get it over with now because we may not feel like it early November, late October. So, yeah, I'm just trying to really kinda get ahead of it. And that way, if I decide I need to crawl into a ball in November, I can just relax and be okay.

Today's interview is about building a studio that stands the test of time that's seen multiple elections and economic events and wars and pandemics. And you've had yours open for a long time. How long have you been in business?

Well, we are almost 3 decades in, so almost 30 years since we opened our doors. 30 years. It's insane. And it, because I'm only 25, so it's really strange. No. Yeah. 3 decades and the same location. It's a home studio, by the way. My business partner, Jamie Hayes and I, he actually opened it. I came in about year 2, so I've been there about 28 years. And I know that because I started bringing my daughter there when she was born, and I became a part-time employee. And then here I am. I'm still there for, you know, almost 28 years later. But, yeah, it's been a minute. It's been a rewarding journey. It's been a challenging journey, and we've seen a lot of things. Like you said, the locusts are next. That's all I, it's like, I'm not sure. It's you know, we've seen a lot of things, and I'm like, well, bring on the locusts. We're ready. Let's go.

Well, and I'm sure we could say how the pandemic affected you in different elections and wars and all that kind of stuff. But let's talk about the industry. You've been open that long. How have you seen the industry change over the 30 years?

Well, I mean, it's been dramatic at times. Right? You know, we over 30 years, you know, we started with film. We didn't have a website. I know this is crazy. You know, no social media. Did not have a website. Did not. And, you know, we were film photographers, and then we went through the digital transition. And, you know, technology kept advancing and changing. And believe it or not, guys, when we went digital, you're talking a $60,000, $80,000, $100,000 investment to buy digital cameras back then. And I think there are a whopping, like, 5 megapixels. I mean, you know, when you talk about it today, it's like, huh, was that one of our smartest decisions? I'm not sure. But we went digital early on. We built a web. We were the first people in our area to have a website. It was mostly text because back then, trying to put images on a website was really, really hard, so it was a lot of text. Everything you're not supposed to do. But we had one. And, you know, the shift in all of that, the shift in styles of photography, you know, going from a more looser people would call it candid, but it's really just, you know, orchestrated images, and then you said the pandemic, economic downturns, upturns. Now we're in AI world. Right? We're in a whole different space. So, yeah, lots and lots of changes and challenges, but great things, you know, because I do think we have to embrace progress, and it's just how you embrace it, I think, is the real key. You know?

This episode is about helping someone build a studio that stands the test of time, and we're gonna ask some focus questions and a little bit about decision-making and finances and stuff. But a few just big picture questions before we get into it. We talked about how much the studio and the industry has changed over the years. I want you to think back. You mentioned digital back in the day. But are there any next big things that everyone said was gonna be the wave of the future that ended up fizzling out? Because you mentioned AI, and it probably is going to be the wave of the future. It's everywhere. You've seen these movies before. Can you think back to one of those that everyone thought was gonna be the deal and it turned out not to be the deal?

Yeah. And this isn't huge. I don't know that it's, but there's been some things. And I guess one of the biggest ones that I think we really, kind of, well, there's a couple, there's 2 that I can think of, but one would be video. And all of a sudden, for some reason, and our industry as a whole, by the way, it was just video, and then drones became huge. And all of a sudden, it became this huge trend that in order to be a professional photographer, you also had to be a professional videographer because you were gonna absolutely need to start doing these mixed media things where it was your images and video and all this stuff. And so, all of a sudden, you know, you're in a deep panic, and then drones came in. And, well, you also need to have a drone. And not just in the wedding and event world, but even, like, there was a big push about senior portraits. They were gonna want it all. They're gonna want video with it. And so, all of a sudden, I'm like, okay. Now I need to learn how to, you know, do video. But then the editing part, like, I don't know how to edit video. And I had to put the brakes on, and Jamie got certified with the drone stuff. We did all of it, and I'm like, your clients don't want this. I'm like, nobody wants it. I got a few really good marketing pieces from it, and that was about it. But I'll never forget, we spent, like, a year just head down. You know, we're gonna essentially become videographers. Then all of a sudden, I'm like, why don't we just let videographers be videographers? We'll just be photographers. Let's just do that for a change. So that was one that we really fell into. You know, I think when we first went digital, we absolutely all of a sudden thought, oh, we could do all these things because we could. You know? We had a printer, an 8650 KODAK dye sub printer. I mean, look at it today. It's a, you know, it's a hippo. It's like the biggest printer in the world. And we carry that around, and we were gonna do all this stuff. And we really took ourselves off track to what our core brand and our identity was. So we nixed that pretty quick. So those are the 2 things through the years that we probably invested a little bit too much time, money, and energy into that, got us off course from our brand, which is never a good thing for a business, particularly a small business, and things that I definitely think we should have stayed away from. But that's okay. You either, you know, you either what do they say? You either succeed or you learn or you, you know, whatever. So we learned, and then it made us more committed to staying on track with what we, our brand and our identity was. So, you know, that was a good. I'm gonna chalk that up to the learning part.

Yeah. That was learning.

Yes.

That info? Learning info that we had.

Yeah. I have some for sale if anybody would like one. Just let me know.

Yeah, hippo, cheap. Please.

I've got a very inexpensive 8650 dye sub printer. Yeah. You can have it.

Exactly. Alright. Let's ask a big-picture question here. If we wanna be open for about 30 years, let's talk about the most important thing that we need to pay attention to. What is the thing that keeps you open that long?

So, like, what is our, well, I'm gonna have to go with passion only because undoubtedly, you know, if you were running a small business, especially in my opinion, a small creative business, that passion has to be there. It's not enough, by the way, because we can be very passionate about things. It's not enough. But, you know, the passion to do it because it's hard. I mean, you know, it's still hard. I mean, and I think we would be considered a fairly successful business just from our profit margins and the amount of money we keep and the life that we've led and all that stuff. And I'm not talking about because we win awards. I'm talking about just our finances and being a mainstay business here in our little corner of the world. But you have to have the passion because sometimes it's just really tough. You know? And you have to sacrifice things. Sometimes it's family time. Sometimes it's, you know, your own sanity or whatever. But you have to be very passionate about getting up every day and continuing to service those customers that you wanna take care of and creating work that they love and you know carry through generations for them and all that stuff. So I think passion sounds like a really, like, maybe cop-out or cheesy word, but you know, the passion to continue to present a quality product, the passion to stay in your own lane and not get, you know, diverted by those shiny things, and the passion to, you know, keep going through a pandemic or the digital transition or whatever AI is gonna bring us. You know? It's easier. A lot of days, it would feel, a lot of days to me anyway, and I'm someone that definitely has major anxiety and depression issues. So I have to sometimes dig deep for that passion to, like, get up and, you know, put on my lead shoes and, like, continue to walk through it. But I do because I love my clients. I love what I do. I believe in what I do, and I wouldn't wanna do anything else. But it's sometimes just a little bit hard. Some days are harder than others. Right? I mean, that's with anything.

The point of view of the show is to help people go from passion to the business. The passion seems to be the table stakes. And if you don't have the passion, you can't be a creative. But you can't stay in business if you don't have the passion and the drive to sell and to follow-up and to do the stuff you don't wanna do and go out and meet new people and leave the cave and sell something. I mean, that has to be a part of it as well, doesn't it?

Oh, my gosh. Absolutely. I mean, it's so easy to say, oh, I want to take pretty pictures, and I want my, and I love it. My clients cry, and they love it. That's all so easy. But it's, you know, making sure that the phone is still ringing or the email box or your message, you know, message box is full. It's networking. It's making sure you're staying, you know, grounded in the brand that you've built. It's understanding and not getting overwhelmed and scared by new things that come along. It's having the bravery to price and pay yourself and all the stuff. There's so much more. The passion is just the easy part. It's the other stuff that I think essentially separates us from the ones that don't make it, and I don't mean that in a bad way. It's just I work with a lot of studios across the country, and I love the fact that I get to teach and share. But one of the hardest things, Pat, is for people to say, you know, might be to say, well, you need to get out and you need to ask for business. They'll say, what's your number one marketing tip? I know this isn't a marketing, but what is your number one? And I'm like, ask. Ask for the business. Pick up the phone. Ask for that lunch meeting with that like-minded business that maybe you could partner with in your community. Ask that client that hasn't been in 2 years to come in and update their family portrait. Ask to be a part of a group or a networking group. Just to ask is hard. I think it's so easy to sit behind our camera. Like, we as photographers have a barrier in front of us so much. It's either our camera or we're in front of our computer. And it's really hard to get out there and do that other stuff that most successful businesses just flat out have to do. And I don't know why. I don't know why we're so afraid of no. I mean, that's the worst thing that can happen. Right? If someone says no. That's it. I mean, they're not gonna kill you. They're not, you know, it's not, it's just, but it's a really hard step to take. I think that a lot of people just really would just rather hide behind that lens, behind that computer, or whatever. So that's a hard part.

I wanna dive into this for a second.

Yeah.

Because there are many photography shows out there. And you said, yeah. You gotta go ask for the business. And almost reflexively, it was almost an apology. Like, you know, well, I don't wanna go there, but this show, I wanna go there.

Yeah.

If you wanna learn how to take beautiful pictures, God bless. Go find 1 of the thousand podcasts on the Internet. If you wanna make some money because this is The Professional Photographer Podcast, we want you to go out and ask for the business. So can you talk a little bit more about when you're coaching other studios and they kinda shrivel up when it's time to go ask for money? Why is that there? If they know they're doing fantastic work, why are they allergic to go out and ask for more work to shoot?

Well, I wish I had the magic pill and the answer to that question because I feel like I could solve a lot of people's angst and problems. However, for some reason, specifically in our industry, and I do, I mean, I'm a lifelong learner. I'm in classes right now. I'm always in mastermind groups. And this is something that, because I do a lot of groups that are outside the industry, because I wanna hear about other small businesses that you know, but outside the industry people. This is not something I'm hearing. Like, I'm in a group that I was just, like, within DC last week or whatever. And nobody in that room said they had a problem asking for business, charging what they needed to charge, etcetera, etcetera. For some reason, us, as artists or creatives, struggle. We struggle with the ask. We struggle with paying ourselves. We struggle with charging what we need to charge. And when I ask that question, just what you asked me, it's, well, maybe next time because I'm gonna get better. My photography is gonna get better. I can't do it yet because I'm not a professional. I'm only doing this part-time or there's just, we come up with 3,000 reasons why we, as human beings, don't deserve to make a living for what we do and why we're not good enough to go out and stand up and say, I create a pretty awesome thing here that you can't get from anybody else because guess what, no one's gonna compose it, light it, you know, take it the way I do. No one can. I am the only one that can take it the way Mary does, and Abby's can take it the way Abby does and Jamie, etcetera, etcetera. But for some reason, we completely discount that. We completely discount ourselves as creators. And I don't know any other industry where I would call and say, hey, landscape architect. I would like for you to give me an entire, give me a couple different designs of what you would do for my house, and then I'm gonna take a look at it, and I might buy something. They would think I was nuts. Right? Like, no one's gonna do that. No one's gonna do that. If you want me to design something, I wanted the landscape architect or anybody to design something custom for me, you gotta put money in the game before they even will talk to you. But for some reason, us, as photographers, we'll come in on a Sunday afternoon, not go to our kids' soccer game. We'll photograph you every which way to Sunday, literally, and then we sit down with our fingers crossed and go, I hope you like it. I hope you buy something from me. And that's something I've just never understood. And I think because I didn't mean to become a photographer if that makes sense, I was always in that space that this is my job. And you know what? If my husband went to work and worked as hard as I work and didn't come home with a paycheck, I would not be happy. It would not be okay, and I'm not gonna do that to myself, my family, my partner. So I always came into it where this is our job. This is what we do. We deserve to be paid and be profitable and sustainable. And we've had that mindset since day 1, since Jamie and I started working together, and we've never wavered from it. And I'm really grateful. I didn't realize that was such a rare thing until I got out in the peep, you know, got out with peep, go to Imaging and start talking to people or go out and talk and I was like, what do you mean you don't pay yourself for do this or that? Because you talk about, we talk about sustainability, and we've been here for 30 years. And I have a lot of thoughts on why, but I think the number one is, and the bottom line is, if we hadn't built a business where we took care of ourselves first, I mean, our clients are crucial. But if we weren't getting paid, if we weren't getting profit because we were business owners and all that stuff, I wouldn't still be here. I would have gone and gotten a job. Like, you know, a real job because it's a job. And I think that at the bottom, at the core, when I hear people leaving the industry, it's because their family can't sustain it anymore. They can't sustain it anymore, and they love what they do. And they may be 10 times more talented than most, but for some reason, they just struggle with that, that key ingredient, which is profitability, sustainability, you know, taking care of yourself first and having enough faith in yourself and your art and what you do that you're willing to go out and ask for it and work for it. You know? It's not easy. I mean, nobody's phone, I think, these days is just ringing off the hook because people are dying to come in and pay you for something they can do all day long on their own. Right? It's gotten harder and harder. And if you're not out there advocating for yourself, no one else is. Because everybody's just trying to get by. We're trying to, like, keep our kids healthy and safe. We're trying to keep our bills paid. We're trying to keep the lights on, all this stuff. And if no one's gonna advocate for you unless you're willing to do it. Now you'll start getting those fans. Right? It starts happening as you get in business and you're there longer, but you gotta start. And if you're not doing it, why would they? You know? You can't just post something online and people are gonna just go, oh, that's amazing. I need this in my life. No. It's, unfortunately, it just doesn't work that way. I sound really negative. I don't mean to be negative. It's just, you know, this is something I am very passionate about, obviously, because I believe in our industry, and I want everybody to be successful in it. You know?

But this is why I wanted to go back to it because it's not talented behavior. You could be talented till the end of the earth, but if you don't have the behaviors of a business owner and you don't prioritize profit over the transformation of making your client happy, you're not gonna make it 30 years.

That.

And I feel like this show, this little corner of the Internet, is designed to lovingly put our arm around a photographer and say, you do great work. Now go get paid for it, and that's, and that's okay. It's okay to make gobs of money. We want you to make gobs of money.

I know. I know. It's never, I've never understood. And I don't know. You know, we, people, we could call it impostor syndrome. We could, you know, lack of, there's a lot of things that we could label, but let's just stop labeling it. Let's just stop normalizing that, oh, which is how photographers are, or just, it's just really hard. Well, let's just stop. Why don't we just stop making excuses and just decide, you know what? This is what we deserve, and this is what we're gonna do because, you know, collectively, if we could just all do that, guess what? The public is gonna go, well, that's just how it is. I mean, I know that if I need a plumber or I need somebody to take care of my lawn, or if I hire someone, I'm hiring them to do what they do best, and they deserve to be compensated. How we got out of that mix is beyond me. And I will tell you this, I think because we have been around so long and because think about it. If we're going back 30 years, it was different. You kinda had to hire a photographer if you needed a new headshot or you were getting married or your kid was graduating from high school because everybody wasn't a photographer. Right? So I think that helps me have that, because I started that way. I never changed that mindset even when we went digital, even when things started changing. So I fully honor and understand that newer people coming into this industry, they don't have, it's harder to obtain that mindset, if that makes sense. Right? Because everybody can do it type of thing. Everybody knows how to open and edit an image or whatever. But if you set yourself apart, if you start building a brand, if you establish yourself in a niche, one of the things I'll say is if you start offering products that aren't readily available in the marketplace, meaning, you know, I went out, I get, I went out of the, like, gift prep business years ago. Meaning, I don't try to compete on selling 8 x 10s and 5 x 7s. That's just, for me, that just would not work. But finding something or putting yourself out there and building this brand and telling this story of what you can do for someone and fix that problem they have, and I didn't even know they have it. Now people are like, ooh, yeah. Because I truly believe, even in this AI world, even with the fact that everybody owns, you know, a camera, that people do wanna hire people to do what they do best. There are enough people out there. That is never gonna go away, regardless of the access that they have. You know? I could cut my own hair, but should I? You know? Like, I could. I could even do my own nails. But you know what? Why don't I let somebody who does it? You know? It's, we don't consider ourselves in that space. And I'm not generalizing all photographers, obviously. There's some amazing, really successful photographers out there. But, I just wish. I wish I could just get a, you know, megaphone and run around and say, charge what you need to charge, be profitable, understand pricing, build a business that's yours, and be proud of it. You know? I don't know. Obviously, I have lots of thoughts on this, Pat.

Let's move on to decision-making because if you don't stay open for 30 years without a long string of mostly good decisions. So think back and talk us through how you and your partner think through big decisions in the business to make sure that you're making the best choice.

Yeah. It's a great question. So, you know, when you're evaluating and making a big decision, it's gonna involve several things. Right? It's gonna involve, in my opinion, data. I understand if you're newer, you may not have as much data, but you can find research or use what you have. But try to come up with some data, some numbers. And I know that we are artists, but there's some science there too. There's, you know, math. Let's math, put some math in there. You know, your intuition. You know, you're smart. You're smart and you're talented and you built this, but you're smart. Your intuition, and I would say the 3rd piece is consultation. And what I mean by that is being a part of your local state association and relying on people that you look and you think, ooh, there's their success. Let me really into that. Or being in a BNI or mar or a mastermind group or PPA, going to the resources that PPA has. But consultation from people who've been through it. They've already been in that arena and got their butt kicked, and ask them how they got through it. So it's those three pieces. You gotta gather the data. You have to understand the impact of the decision and what that, you know, will or won't look like. You know, leaning into trusted advisors or trusted mentors or team members, and making those decisions. And then your instinct. I mean, you have to. It's yours, you know, and at the end, you know, it sounds cliche, but that gut instinct, really, I think 9 times out of 10, I think 9 times out of 10, we know. We just wanna doubt ourselves. We're really great at doubting ourselves but leaning into the instinct. And then consider it all together and make sure you understand the potential risks as well as the potential success and leap. You know? Make the decision. Don't get moped, and nothing is on fire. And if it is on fire, that's a different conversation. But a lot of times, we make it a lot more than it is. I think we also can, you know, paralysis by analysis, and that we're really good at that sometimes, I think as small business owners. Just sometimes just trust your gut, lean into some data and some counsel, and move forward. Don't just get stuck in that space of not making a decision because that's a really tough space to be in. You know?

I wanna offer this show as a resource. Now this is breaking news. PPA has given me my own email address, podcast@ppa.com. I'm kind of a big deal.

You really are.

Really a big deal now. So if you hear Mary or you hear Kira or Gary or Absay say or Marnie Clagett or some of the Jason Marino, some of the awesome people we've interviewed and you have a question for them, email me, and we'll facilitate it. Because everyone that's coming on the show has the heart of a teacher, and they want to help you get further down the road. So if Mary says something that makes you go, oh, I wanna know more about that. Podcast@ppa.com. Address it to Kind Of A Big Deal. I'm sure you'll get your question answered.

I'm emailing you later today just so I can use that.

Please do it. Dear Kind Of A Big Deal. I have a question. Anyway, one of the big decisions facing us is AI. Are you using it? How are you testing it? Are you avoiding it? What are you two doing?

AI. So I kinda chuckle every time we get so wrapped up in this because it's machine learning and, newsflash, it's been around a long time. Like, it's not, it's really not, you know? And I just get the imagery part and all, but that doesn't scare me at all. Like, it's not something that I'm personally incorporating into my business. But I can understand use, the usefulness of it, especially, like, if you do dance schools using it for backgrounds and using for stuff. It's not what my brand, but absolutely, I'm using AI. I'm, you know, and also been using it for a while. If you've ever used something called Grammarly or you spell-checked something in Word Perfect when that was still a bang, it's AI kind of. It's machine learning. So absolutely. I mean, using it for customer engagement, meaning, helping me do a better job with, copy or using tools to help me get more reviews or, you know, anytime I can just, helping me with SEO keywords. I am 100% leaning into AI is, helped me save hours of time. So that's what I do. And the other stuff, so it's like, oh, are you afraid? Like, look what you can do with headshots. Okay. You know what? If it's good enough for them to have an AI headshot, good for them. I'm not for everybody already. So if the person that's okay with an AI headshot, let's say, they're never gonna be my client. With or without AI, they weren't gonna be my client. They probably, before AI, were taking it with their cell phone themselves, you know, and that's okay too. I'm not for everybody, and I think we get so wound up in that. You know? Also, just a few statistics on this since we're talking about it. If AI was so threatening to us as photographers, then why do we see a swing more than ever in decades, a swing back to real? And what I mean by that is they're making LPs again. My kid only listens to vinyl, and my daughter only reads books. She doesn't wanna nook or one of the readers or whatever. People want real. There is always gonna be, in my opinion, a buying market out there, a contingency out there, that want authentic and real, and I think now more than ever. So dig into the real. We're the real deal. We create really, in front of our camera, in our studio, wherever we are. We're the real deal. Lean into that. And if anything, you know what? Use that as, lead with that. You know what? This is all great and fun, but when you want something authentic and real, because the love you, for your family or your wedding day, or what is real, or it's important for you to make a really great first impression, then come to me. It's kinda like, okay. Go ahead. Play. Have fun. But when you're ready for the real deal, come to us. And that's kinda how I've leaned into it. I just know.

I'm not a photographer, but I'm photographer adjacent.

Yes.

My wife is a photographer, and she had something happen that talks to this. She was taking a picture of a 30-something woman, and it was a headshot. And Abby pointed out to her after she took the headshot. The woman reacted in a way as though she was seeing herself for the first time because every photo she had ever taken of herself was with this. And when she had a picture taken with a real lens in a real studio, she saw herself in a completely different way. Now I can't explain that as a photographer. I know you can, but that's the real image, not the flat cell phone image.

Exactly. The high angle. I mean, I do it all the time. Don't get me wrong. I mean, I'm all about it. Like, me and my friends, let's get a selfie. I mean, I love it. I do it all the time. I mean, I think it's great, but you're so right. When you have, I had a bride a couple of weeks ago that came in, and I'm gonna get emotional, like, but she was very insecure, and I felt for her because I was that bride one day. You know, 3,000 years ago when I got married, I was that bride. I did, I felt so, I hated being in front of the camera, all this stuff. I said, trust me. Trust me. I got you. And when we went in and saw the images, she literally just could not believe how beautiful she looked. And I thought, ugh, how have you gone 28 years and never felt this? So what we do is incredibly real. And all the great AI stuff and all the machine learning, all the things out there are awesome tools. Use them like you use garlic or salt and pepper. You know what? Spice it in when it's gonna help you. And outside of that, just go, okay, you're cute AI. Thanks. Bye. And I know I'm, maybe I'm, I hope I'm not being naive about it, but I do believe there's always going to be a certain amount of people out there that want real and they want to make sure they really have a professional handle it. And I'm that professional if you want that, so.

So we've talked about decision-making and passion and all of these other things, but now we have to talk about money. You can't keep a studio open for 30 years if you have bad books. When you're coaching people when you're talking to colleagues inside PPA, are people spending enough time to know their numbers?

No. You know, at PPA right now, and thank you PPA for this podcast. I am so excited about this, by the way. But also PPA has a great service. They have the benchmark survey, which they're working on right now. So for 2024, there's a new benchmark survey that'll be coming out, I'm sure, sometime next year. Such a great resource. But I think creators, we often overlook the financial aspect. It's just very easy to overlook. It's very easy to try not to understand it, not understand our numbers, but it is essential for sustainability. Knowing your numbers allows you to make informed decisions, identify your profit areas, and then more importantly, your nonprofitable areas, and it makes sure that you can understand your costs. I can't tell you how many times that people go, well, my book, the books are balanced, so it's all good. And I'm like, it's not. Because you're looking at you're selling this product, product A, for example, and you understand that product A costs you this much, and you're charging this much. It's costing you money to do this. And a lot of times, it's for portrait photographers, it's an album or something because they're spending 10 hours designing it and all the stuff, and they don't count the fact that there's credit card processing and there's shipping fees and all the stuff. Plus now, prices have gone up quite a bit, specifically in those areas in shipping and production. But when you break it down and really look at it, I'm like, do you understand that you're charging x and it's costing you x plus 20 to make it? And they'll, and it's always this shock, you know, but because they don't sit down and evaluate their numbers. And at least every year, you need to do that. Honestly, these days, I feel like you need to look at it at least twice a year because prices are fluctuating so much, specifically because of shipping costs and things like that. So, you know, hire someone if it's not for you. Hire an, I mean, hopefully, you have someone helping you with your finances, at least for your taxes and stuff like that. But understanding your numbers, it's so important. I can't tell you, Pat, how many times I've sat down and looked at my numbers and thought, ugh, I need to get rid of this product, or I need to find a new resource for this product because the pricing isn't working, or I need to raise my prices. And if you don't know your numbers and you sit down and look at them, then how the heck can you price? And, but the other piece of that is if you're not tracking your session numbers and your averages, how can you forecast your goal set for your business? I have to have a median of what my, you know, this type of session, what it averages, because then I can say, okay. I need 10 of those a month or a year or whatever so that I can be profitable and make sure that I pay myself, my business partner gets paid, and besides keeping the lights on and all the stuff that you just have to pay. So, yeah, the numbers thing, it drives me bonkers. I don't know any other businesses that just kinda wing it and go, well, you know, let's just you know, I'll just double it. And I'm like, that's not how it works. Like, that's not called profit, you know, just because it only costs but, well, it only costs $10 and I do all of this myself. And your point is, you know. Your point is, just because you're doing it yourself doesn't mean that you're not paying yourself, right? And they'll look at you like, that's the craziest question in the world. And I'm like, but if you're not paying yourself, but I do it myself. I just do it when the, I put the kids to bed, and I'm like, yeah. And you sit at your computer, and you take time away from your spouse or your partner or you're just rest. You know? Yeah. Numbers are obviously very important, and that's something that Anne Monteith was one of my original mentors, and a lot of people may not even know Anne at this point. And we used to do this with paper and pencil because, again, we didn't, you didn't carry a laptop everywhere you went or a phone or iPad or whatever, and we would write it out. And we knew all of our costs, and we would multiply it by 5 or 3 or whatever. And every year, we would sit down and do that. Now it's easy. You know? It's really no excuse. But, yeah, understanding your numbers and evaluating them, making sure you have that data so you can make decisions. How can we make decisions if we don't have data? I keep doing it all the time.

As we make that computation for what we're going to charge, you mentioned glossing over our personal time. How do you allocate money for the time that you're spending? Do you like to identify an hourly rate that you're charging? Or is it just another cost of doing business that you just compute into your session and your print charges?

Yeah. That's a great question. So I'm a Profit First girl. I'm a big Profit First person. I went through all the training with Mike Michalowicz. And, so I pay myself. Right? Just like any, like you would if you had a job. So I have a salary. So my time is worth x, and I get paid. So that's one way to do it, to set aside a salary for yourself as an employee. If that's not a comfortable space for you, then exactly what you said. Say, okay. If I do this job, I believe that 10% of that needs to go in my pocket or 20% or whatever it is, and you could take a percentage of each job. Because a lot of times when you're starting out, you don't have that confidence to just say, well, I'm gonna pay myself $50,000. Like, that's a really scary number, and I understand and respect that. So if you can't do that, then say, okay. But every time I sell something, if I sell something for $10, every time I sell something for $10, $2 is gonna go in my pocket. Well, that leaves you $8 that you need to keep the lights on. You need to pay the lab. You need to pay the credit card. Do you see what I'm saying? So you could do it that way. If you wanna do it by time basis, I think you could. What you could do in that situation is you could evaluate what it would cost you to hire that out. Meaning, if I had to pay someone to do this job, what would it cost me? And at least use that at your bare minimum. You know, I think my time is worth more than what I would pay someone to, for example, retouching. I could do retouching myself, but why would I when I could pay someone x dollars an hour? I could spend my time going out and getting a new client, which is gonna give me way more money at the end of the day than retouching stray hair. Right? So there's that give and take. But as you get used to paying yourself, whichever way you choose to do that and I've given you 3 options. You can evaluate your time on time and, you know, base it on what you would have to pay someone. You could do a percentage of every sale, or you could just set a salary. Those are 3 options. Just pick 1. If you pick 1, you're doing great. But that's what I would recommend. And when I instruct and when I teach that, those are the three options that I would give someone.

That's one of the things I wish more small business owners knew that the complete unfair advantage is delegation through contractors or virtual assistants. If you have something that can be delegated, it's a requirement to do that. If you charge this and they charge this, that's profit for every hour. You have the ability to stop time because someone else is doing the work while you go do what you do to make money. It is something I wish everyone knew. Buy Back Your Time by Dan Martell. Every book in the living room.

Such a great book. Such a great book. Yeah. That’s a good one.

Got to read it. It’s right here on the bookshelf. Right back there.

I might have it back here somewhere. I don't know. There's a lot of books back there. But, yeah, you're right. It's a good one.

Gotta have it. Alright. Let's land this plane.

Let’s do it.

And let's go back in time. So it's your first day in business, and Mary today gets to go back to the beginning on your first day. What would you share with her that you've learned that you think she needed to know but didn't fully understand?

Well, there's a lot of things I would tell her. You know, I would tell her to embrace the journey and enjoy it a little more than I probably did, including I think in the beginning, so when I first started, it was definitely a male-dominated arena, which not, that's not the commentary. But I, for some reason, spent way too much time with that imposter syndrome that a lot of us have in this industry or and beyond, in life, really. But to enjoy more of it and enjoy the good stuff and the bad stuff. Adopting the, like the learning from your mistakes philosophy came to me later in my journey. I wish I'd had that earlier on because I probably would a lot, made a lot less mistakes. Building a business is a marathon. You know, it's not a sprint. I know that's cliche, but it's the perseverance that's key. Stay true to my vision. You know, don't try to become a videographer. Don't try to become a mini session factory and all the stuff that, you know, I wish I'd, you know, stay true to the vision and the brand that we started building. And don't be afraid to make mistakes and don't be afraid to be wrong. I'm a Virgo, so whatever you buy into that or whatever. But being wrong was a hard thing for me. And for some reason, I took so much shame in it. And I'm, get older and you learn, and I'm like, ugh, it's really not that big of a deal. I'm okay being wrong. I'm okay. I'm sorry. Move on. And then, try to do better with balance. I definitely, this is where I get really upset. As an empty nester now, 28, the proudest parent of 2 of the most amazing children in my world, I wish that I'd done a better job with balance. I spent a lot of time trying to be one of the boys essentially, or the, you know, I don't know, get in this race of, you know, just one more session or meet this goal or break this, you know, record or do whatever in our business financially that I wish I'd struck a better balance. I definitely missed out on things that I can't go back. They're gone. You know? You get 18 summers, and your life changes forever. Well, that 18th summer, that 19 summer when you're driving them off to college, it's a gut punch, and you go, ugh, I wish. So when I get out and I have a chance to work with other young photographers starting out or specifically if their parents, that's the number one thing. You know? That there's nothing in the world. There's not one sale or one session or one conference, or anything in the long run that's worth missing that. So, yeah, I have a lot of things. I have a lot of thoughts on mistakes I made. But you know what? I've always, I had this conversation with my kids not too long ago, and I said, you know what? I'm sorry. I really wish. I hope you all don't do this. And the good news is I think my kids learned from my mistakes, and they won't. They're much more protective of their time and their energy, and they're much better about balance. So it didn't work out for me, but I think I taught them to do better. And that's, at the end of the day, that's just gonna have to be enough.

Small businesses are dreams, not jobs. On this show, we talked about process. We talked about pricing. We talked about methodology. But when it came back to the end, what did you wish you knew back then? It came back to the journey that we're on. And I hope for the person that's watching this, and I know today, you helped someone on their journey.

I hope so.

So for the viewer that's watching this, thank you for your time. Mary Fisk-Taylor, thank you for joining us in The Professional Photographer Podcast.

Thanks, Pat.

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of The Professional Photographer Podcast. I'm already looking forward to the next time we get together. Before you go, can I ask a small favor? If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe and leave us a comment. Those, like, really help in the world of algorithms. Wherever you're watching or listening, do that, because it really helps us out. Your feedback helps us also make sure that we're picking the right topics and bringing you the content that will help your business. And if you're not yet a member of Professional Photographers of America, you're missing the boat. PPA offers incredible resources like equipment insurance, top-notch education, and a supportive community of photographers ready to help you succeed. It's perfect for photographers who are serious about growing their business in a sustainable and profitable way. At PPA, you belong here. Discover more about membership at ppa.com. That's ppa.com. I'm Pat Miller, founder of the Small Business Owners Community. Thank you for joining us on this journey. We appreciate your support, and we'll be back soon with more tools to help you build a better business with The Professional Photographer Podcast. See you next time.