PR doesn’t belong to big brands with big budgets – it belongs to anyone willing to be clear, human, and seen. Joanna Lott is joined by PR specialist, author and founder of Hype Yourself, Lucy Werner. Together, they explore how PR, storytelling and visibility can work for small businesses and coaches, without hype, pressure, or pretending to be someone you’re not.

Timestamps

[00:00] Why PR isn’t about big brands

[04:12] What hyping yourself actually means

[10:35] Building your PR foundations

[18:40] Pitching with clarity and confidence

[26:15] Relationships over quick wins

[34:50] PR, income streams and long-term growth

[42:10] Staying human in an AI-heavy world

This episode is for coaches and small business owners who want more visibility and credibility without losing their integrity or sounding like everyone else.

Choose one place this month where you’ll share your story clearly and let the right opportunities find you.

Useful Links

Jo’s Guest Speaker: Lucy Werner, founder of HypeYourself

Learn about The Business of Coaching programme

Signature Solution Course

Download the Free Digital version of Coaches' Planner (NEW edition 2026)

Free Essential AI Toolkit – 2 Must-Have Prompts for Coaches

How to secure more coaching clients' free training

Download the 12 ways to get clients now

Connect with Jo on LinkedIn

Rate and Review the Podcast

If you found this episode of Women in the Coaching Arena helpful, please do rate and review it on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

If you’re kind enough to leave a review, please do let Jo know so she can say thank you. You can always reach her at: joanna@joannalottcoaching.com

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Today I'm really excited to welcome

Lucy Werner, who is a PR specialist,

2

author and founder of Hype Yourself.

3

I am a paid member of Lucy's newsletter,

which is called The Hype and really

4

excited to have pitched Lucy as the

first person that I've really pitched

5

to have on my podcast to talk to you

today about using PR, storytelling, and

6

smart self-promotion in your business.

7

So, Lucy, my motto is honesty, not hype.

8

So it's really interesting that your

business is called The Hype, but clearly

9

when I talk about honesty not hype,

I'm meaning hype within the coaching

10

business industry where people kind

of go six figures in five minutes,

11

but obviously hyping yourself is

exactly what I'm passionate about so

12

really excited to have you on today.

13

Thank you so much.

14

And I love like the disclaimer

of without the hype, but we've

15

got somebody from The Hype here.

16

But yeah, to me, like the hype, and

hyping yourself doesn't necessarily

17

have to be this jazz hands, you

know, all singing, all dancing.

18

If you are listening on audio, I'm

waving my hands up in the air right now.

19

I think it's really finding a way

to promote yourself in a way that

20

feels good to you and that's gonna

look different for everybody.

21

And it doesn't have to

just be, look at me.

22

Exactly.

23

I'm sure everyone will

be relieved to hear that.

24

So tell us a bit about you and how you

got into PR and what you're doing now.

25

Yeah, thank you.

26

So, in a nutshell, I actually started off

in PR when I was 17 on work experience.

27

And I really wanted to be a journalist

and or a writer growing up and that kind

28

of got knocked out of me academically.

29

Then I discovered PR.

30

I didn't even know really what it

was, and I was suddenly like, oh, I

31

actually get to chat to journalists

and I'm coming up with story ideas.

32

So it was kind of all of

the bits that I liked.

33

So half of it was kind of the

creative side of generating.

34

The ideas and the other bit was the

kind of strategic, making sure it

35

was aligned with the business goals,

putting the actual plan together.

36

So I did a degree in media and culture

studies, and then it took me a while

37

to kind of land in a PR agency.

38

I was in-house for.

39

Mr & Mrs Smith, the luxury travel

guide, when it was a scrappy startup.

40

If you can believe it, you wouldn't

be able to believe it now, but I think

41

it was like an office of 13 in Clapham

when I started, before it became the big

42

luxury travel house it is now in Chi.

43

And I worked in advertising and

then I kind of worked my way through

44

different PR agencies and then

45

Because I was getting to that point

a which I think for a lot of people

46

who become self-employed, a, we

started to become a bit disillusioned

47

of the companies we're working in.

48

And at that point, my clients

were alcohol, e-cigarettes.

49

Poker, you know, all the good things.

50

And I thought, I'm not feeling like the

soul work that I wanted to be doing.

51

And at that time I was meeting a lot

of cool entrepreneurs in London who are

52

building brands or doing pop-up events

who couldn't afford big PR agency budgets.

53

So I thought, I'm gonna start up a

boutique PR agency for smaller outlets.

54

And that kind of naturally led

to me studying PR books because

55

I was back to the shop floor.

56

So again, like many people who are

self-employed now, we quite often train

57

in one area in our corporate careers

and then we suddenly get promoted.

58

And the bit that we love doing,

we are not doing anymore.

59

So I went back to reading PR books

thinking I need to learn how to sort of

60

actually pitch to a journalist again.

61

And most of the books were

either written by men or they

62

were written by journalists.

63

Not people who'd worked in pr.

64

And for me there was a whole

strategy piece missing of aligning

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it with your business goals and

knowing what your key messages are.

66

And this whole strategic piece that

was missing outside of this is how

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you write an email to a journalist.

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So I wrote my own book and on that journey

I started to discover the world of the

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individual solo preneur, self-employed,

small business owners, freelancers.

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I think we all have a different name

for how, what we call ourselves and.

71

Even then, my boutique agency

wasn't affordable for them.

72

So I started playing with this

sort of DIY arm of like courses,

73

workshops, never really kind

of settled on the right medium.

74

And then fast forward, I moved to

France four years ago and I had a

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third maternity leave and had stopped

all my client work and thought,

76

right, what do I really wanna do?

77

And because I had time and space

here to really think, okay,

78

i'm gonna gamble on a pivot.

79

I decided I was gonna start this

paid newsletter business model.

80

I'm lucky, I do have other income streams

I've built up from being a self-employed

81

person and from hyping myself.

82

So I had that as the backup and I've given

myself three years to try and replace

83

my agency income from the newsletter.

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So each year it's incrementally growing

to be the majority part of my income.

85

But for now, it's still

a work in progress.

86

And then essentially the newsletter is

a weekly prompt or a personal essay or,

87

a resource to help you hype yourself.

88

And then I do a bimonthly directory

of newsletters and podcasts and other

89

people who are looking for guests.

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Because I think one of the hardest

things is actually the ti the time

91

to research where can I push myself.

92

So I try and curate, or I also

curate like public opportunities

93

as well because there's lots out

there and just like nudge my paid

94

readers, like here's how you do it.

95

And then we do a live class every month

as well, which can be anything from

96

me talking about how to pitch to a

journalist, to how to get paid as public

97

speaker, how to teach a workshop really

well, because a lot of us has an amazing

98

expertise, but we don't actually know how

to package it up into something sellable.

99

All kind of things in the realm

of hyping yourself, which for me

100

is everything you do in the public

eye, it's not just getting in a

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newspaper or writing a press release.

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So yeah, that kind of leads us up to date.

103

Yeah, totally.

104

And I think the approach you take

with your newsletter is something

105

that attracted me to contact you

because you actually said, my plan

106

for this year is to speak on podcasts.

107

So I think you also mentioned another

podcast interview I listened to

108

that you think we should put it out

there in the world and then we start

109

to attract those opportunities.

110

'cause we are super clear on what we

want and even you outlining there that

111

you want to grow your business and this

is your goal for the next three years

112

to, you know, have that newsletter as

the part of it is you just claiming

113

exactly what you want and hopefully

therefore attracting it your way.

114

Yeah, that's the goal.

115

That's the goal.

116

Watch this space, Joanna.

117

Watch the space.

118

Hopefully that is the goal.

119

Love it.

120

So many of my people are starting out

maybe, or even, years into business like

121

I am, but still not really focused on PR.

122

It's not something I have

personally prioritized yet, as

123

many of my listeners may have.

124

Not either.

125

What would you say to someone who's just

starting to dip their toe in thinking?

126

Should I do this?

127

But is anyone really gonna be

interested in what I've got to say?

128

Yeah, sure.

129

I think the, for me it's the really

unsexy basics, like I would say,

130

have a media toolkit, which can sound

a bit dramatic, but let's just say

131

you do land a massive podcast or a

speaking gig or a press opportunity.

132

These are things that you

are gonna be asked for.

133

So I'd have an updated

bio of about 150 words.

134

So if you haven't looked at your

biography anytime recently, get that

135

up to speed, and get some headshot,

whether that is just you on your iPhone.

136

Taking portrait and landscape shots, I

always say take a landscape shot, not of

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a landscape of you in the landscape mode.

138

Because if you are pitching to be on an

online newsletter or an online article

139

or press article, even if it appears in

print, you quite often end up dominating

140

that article and being the thumbnail.

141

So it's a really easy hack.

142

Get some more bang for your buck.

143

And your one liner, which I

think a lot of people try and

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make work really hard for them.

145

I see this actually quite a lot in the

coaching space specifically because maybe

146

they're trying to coach two or three

different types of audiences and they're

147

trying to fit that all in in one sentence.

148

Or it's, you know, they do coaching,

but they're also an author and they're

149

also a speaker, and they're also a

retreat host and they're also I don't

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know, a brand ambassador for somebody

or something, and trying to get that

151

all up front whilst to you can feel

incredibly important, to the person on the

152

other side it can be difficult to read.

153

And another reason why I think having

a simplified one-liner of what you do

154

is important is because a journalist

or a researcher for a corporate company

155

who's looking to book some talent, do

a corporate gig or an individual who's

156

looking for a specialist in that area

is gonna be doing a Google search.

157

And when we have multiple job

titles across our different.

158

Social media channels, like

maybe you've got a LinkedIn

159

and an Instagram and a website.

160

It's harder for Google to find

you if you've got different

161

bios all over the place.

162

So you wanna have it

simplified and matching.

163

And it's also the same for chat GPT now.

164

So increasingly I'm having my

audience, my paid readers telling me.

165

They're getting clients, booking

them through searching for that sort

166

of service on chat, GPT and chat.

167

GPT is looking for the same patterns.

168

You know, as Google.

169

It wants you to have the same

paragraph about yourself or the

170

one liner across everywhere.

171

So getting those nuts and bolts,

they, it seems like, well,

172

I'm not really doing anything.

173

I'm not speaking to anybody, but it's

actually, really getting, so the, the

174

foundations of your PR house, if you were

like, you need it there to be able to, to

175

do the next stages of your PR building.

176

So I would start with that.

177

Yeah, totally.

178

And another thing I heard you say

once is that it's a long-term game.

179

So in other words, like put your

effort into building relationships

180

versus just, being selfish and

just going, I wanna put be in this.

181

Like, how can we put

the other person first?

182

Tell us more about how we can build

those relationships with people.

183

So I'll give you a case study for myself.

184

So I really wanted to be on this

creative, podcast called The Future.

185

It has millions of followers.

186

And to be honest, I kind of thought,

I don't know if I can ever get on

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something like that, but I do like

to set an outrageous goal for myself.

188

And they had an Instagram channel

where at that time they were inviting

189

collaborators to give a piece of advice

that was running as a carousel post.

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So I turned notifications on for that

Instagram account for about six months.

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And then I was being

flown to LA for an event.

192

And I knew that the founder was gonna

be there, so I took a copy of my book,

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I bought a copy of his book, asked him

to sign it and do a photo with me, and

194

then gave a copy of my book and didn't

say anything else, didn't pitch, just

195

left it as a relationship, warmer.

196

And then he just thanked me

'cause I gave him a gift.

197

You know, everybody else is there going,

oh, I wondered if, whereas I just was

198

like, here's a gift, and just left it.

199

And then he invited me onto the

podcast and I ended up teaching for

200

his academy, which was kind of really

where I wanted it to end up anyway.

201

I didn't want to do the

podcast to get clients.

202

So that was probably a year in the making

of sort of stalking and commenting.

203

But there'll be other things, like I

will research topics that I think could

204

work for me, or I read the news a lot.

205

I think this is really underrated.

206

There's lots of, don't read the news,

don't consume, you know, just create.

207

So I have Apple News as a subscription

on my phone and it knows what I like now.

208

So I'm, you know, I'm interested in

first person stories and personal

209

essays and opinion articles.

210

So I noticed the other week there was a

series about people who've moved abroad

211

and so I then pitched to that because I

knew, well, I've got a story angle here.

212

So actually that was a cold contact.

213

It was a generic email address.

214

It was something like Money at Telegraph.

215

You know, it wasn't, it

wasn't an actual person.

216

And I just am really specific in

the subject line, like pitch for

217

families who've moved abroad.

218

And then I just write a couple of

bullet points, not, I think a lot

219

of people get really into this, oh,

I'm asking something from somebody.

220

I need to be like, Hey, how are you?

221

I loved your article.

222

And no, I, with journalists,

the inboxes are so busy.

223

Just get straight to

like, what is the story?

224

And I would say this applies

to being on a podcast or

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collaborating with brands as well.

226

Like what?

227

What is in it for them?

228

And then I got the interview.

229

I thought it was a really nice example

actually, that people sometimes

230

think, well, it's easy for you

to get press Lucy because you've

231

been doing PR for like 20 years.

232

But actually most of my press

doesn't come from people I know.

233

It just comes from the right

story over the right contact.

234

So for me, even if I don't have

that relationship with that person,

235

either I'm gonna try and cultivate

it, or I'm just writing the pitch

236

really succinctly about this is

what the benefit is to your reader.

237

This is what my credentials

are, this is what the story

238

is, because I think sometimes.

239

Particularly the Brits.

240

We either go a bit Hugh Grant for weddings

in a funeral, bumbly like, sorry to

241

bother you like, and we kind of waffle

around all these, all the sort of things

242

that I could maybe talk about or do.

243

We don't really get to the point.

244

And I do think Americans

in particular are great.

245

You know, they, they call it the

elevator pitch and they know, you know

246

that right out there straight away.

247

I mean, we don't even call

it an elevator, you know?

248

We're like, it's a lift.

249

It's just bringing us up to me.

250

So I think getting straight to the

point of this is what my story is,

251

this is what the angle could be.

252

And actually that's the bit that

takes the largest amount of work,

253

which I think people underestimate.

254

They just sort of think, oh.

255

I don't know the person or I need

to research the right person.

256

It's actually, once you know who

the right person is writing the

257

pitch that's relevant to them.

258

Exactly.

259

So we've got the media kit, we've

got a pitch to make it interesting

260

and useful for the other person.

261

Where else do we need to start?

262

I think it's really important to start

with what are your business goals?

263

Are you trying to get press

because you want kudos?

264

Like, do you wanna just be able to say

to your peers, oh, I've appeared in this

265

publication because actually getting in

national press is lovely, but it's not

266

necessarily gonna be the silver bullet

to sales that you are gonna be expecting.

267

So if you are really time poor,

I'm gonna be thinking two things.

268

One is like, what are my business goals?

269

What am I trying to do?

270

Am I trying to.

271

Sell a corporate workshop.

272

Am I trying to get a brand partnership?

273

Am I trying to get a

sponsor for my podcast?

274

Am I trying to get more

one-to-one clients?

275

Am I trying to sell a retreat,

whatever that is, and then think

276

about the most effective way

that you can be reaching that.

277

So maybe you're really good at

speaking, maybe you prefer writing.

278

Maybe you'd like to do creative

silly stunts and be a bit

279

imaginative and play with it.

280

Maybe the whole thing feels

really uncomfortable and you

281

really don't wanna do it.

282

So you wanna just maybe collaborate

with some of your peers to do

283

something like an online forum.

284

Like an online chat, something like that.

285

So finding the medium that you

feel comfortable doing for your

286

promotion is the most important.

287

So I can say for me personally,

that public speaking or workshops

288

works really well to convert

people to join my paid newsletter.

289

Same with podcasts, because I

think podcasts are really intimate.

290

Like we're quite often listening

to them whilst we're cooking our

291

dinner or we're in the bath, or

you know, we're driving in the car.

292

So we are in that intimate space.

293

So the listener, hopefully listener,

hi on the other side, is feeling like

294

they're getting to know me and have

that emotional connection to me, and

295

not everybody is gonna want to read.

296

You know, a long press

interview or watch a video.

297

Um, so for me, I'm focusing on podcasts

because as much as I like to do public

298

speaking and workshops, I have three

children under the age of eight.

299

I'm in rural France.

300

There's only so much time I

have to be out in the public

301

domain outside of where I live.

302

So it is also for me about fitting

it around the time restraints

303

that I have and working that way.

304

So, yeah, I think it's just getting

really comfortable and confident

305

and knowing what works for you.

306

Some of that's gonna be

testing and learning as well.

307

So some of the biggest podcasts

I've been on, which maybe have

308

had like millions of subscribers,

hasn't done that much, whereas other

309

times, a really small podcast that

is a complete match in audience

310

size has worked really well for me.

311

Like I have one podcast.

312

It was a book writing podcast, and

I was talking about how I failed

313

to become a Sunday Times bestseller

and what I learned in that journey.

314

And that led to some corporate paid work.

315

It led to, me selling a lot of one-to-one

mentoring, which I don't tend to talk

316

about those sides of my business, but

they are obviously other revenue streams.

317

But those opportunities landed

in my inbox because I was talking

318

about trying to sell my book.

319

Totally.

320

it's not always the size, not

that my podcast is super small or

321

anything, but it is like how warm,

how much they trust you as well.

322

I think, you know, that's an

ego thing as well for people to

323

remember that, you know, it's so

hard to not use vanitry metrics.

324

If somebody follows us on Instagram

and they've got hundreds of thousands

325

of followers, our Instagram should be

like, this person's following me, and

326

their numbers are huge, but actually

i've seen it even with people doing

327

stories about my books or talking

about other things, more often than

328

not, if it's a smaller audience, they

actually tend to be more engaged and

329

it tends to be more niche as well.

330

So when you know who your ideal client is,

it's much easier for you to then match it

331

against what it is that you like doing.

332

Yeah, totally.

333

If we are thinking, how are we

gonna be genuinely interesting?

334

Like who really cares

about our personal story?

335

Any tips on how we get the confidence

or how we find the angle that might

336

actually be useful for someone?

337

I tend to say to my audience,

put yourself into three buckets.

338

So.

339

Number one is business expertise.

340

So obviously I'm here today.

341

I can talk to you about PR tips or

how to go any newsletter or how to

342

promote a book, those sort of things.

343

And that's great, but in the

world of chat, GPT and ai, that

344

information can also be served up

very easily by researching on that.

345

So actually telling stories of

transformation of your clients,

346

your own personal transformation as

anecdotes within the business expertise

347

realm, I think works really well.

348

And then you don't have to turn

the torch on what you've done.

349

You can turn the torch on other people,

which I think is really helpful.

350

Then I have what I call

the human interest column.

351

So if you are wondering like what is

the human interest thing, you can either

352

sort of Google first person stories or

real life stories or the opinion columns.

353

If you Google how to write an

opinion piece for the New York

354

Times or the Financial Times.

355

All that information's there.

356

And that's normally somebody talking

about their personal response

357

to something that's happened

or that something is topical.

358

And then last but not least,

we have like passion points.

359

So sometimes people kind of ignore

what they do as a hobby or what

360

they might do in their spare time.

361

That actually can be really

interesting as a topic.

362

Podcast and then you

are cross pollinating.

363

So for example, you could argue

that I am a PR coach, so I'm now

364

appearing on a podcast for coaches.

365

I rarely go on podcasts for PRS because

I don't wanna speak to other prs.

366

I want to speak to small business owners

and self-employed people, but I have a

367

sort of specialist subject in relocating

to France, or I really love like Studio

368

Ghibli films or I love Repo's Drag Race.

369

So I would quite happily go and talk

about those things on, you know, with the

370

fandom of those things as well, because

there could be somebody in those spaces

371

that are interested in talking to me.

372

And I think a really great example

that I've used in the last week was

373

the Brooklyn Beckham story, because

yes, that appeared as news, but then

374

off the back of that we had experts.

375

From an opinion piece, talking about it

like they were either legal experts or

376

family, lawyers, branding, PR people.

377

So that was, there was that as the kind of

business expertise, but we also saw people

378

talking about it from the human interest.

379

So lots of family estrangement

stories, lots of people.

380

My mum ruined my wedding, my

mother-in-law ruined my wedding stories.

381

And if we then move from opinion to

the experts, the opinion and the human

382

interest, and then to the passion points.

383

There's just people talking about wedding

etiquette and wedding stuff in general.

384

That could also hook off that.

385

So for me, that's why I say like read

and have a look to see what's happening.

386

Because quite often a popular TV show,

remember Adolescents last year, like

387

everybody had something to say about that.

388

So it, depending on what your

area of expertise are, it's likely

389

that something in popular culture

can be a news hook for you.

390

So then if you don't wanna talk

about yourself, you don't have

391

to, you can just give your opinion

about what's happening culturally.

392

And it's then timely.

393

The other phrase I use quite a lot is

show a bit of ankle, which is you don't

394

need to reveal everything about yourself.

395

You know, I have very strict

guardrails for myself of what

396

I do and don't talk about.

397

So yes, I talk about being a mother of

three children, but you don't know their

398

names, you don't see their faces, you

don't see typically inside my house.

399

You see the view from my garden

because that's me kind of doing

400

my daily gratitude for myself.

401

So I'm like, look, I live by the

mountains, even though I've find it really

402

hard sometimes, that's a reminder for me.

403

And there are certain topics that

are all brands who were asked to

404

collaborate with me, and I have to be

like, no, that's not a right fit for me.

405

Like, I remember having a

brand come and partner with me.

406

One was a global sex toy brand and

another was a dry cleaning um, it was

407

like a bedroom dry cleaning service.

408

They actually arrived at the same

time, but they're not linked as

409

businesses that maybe they should be.

410

And I was like, I teach small business

owners how to hype themselves.

411

Like this is not.

412

There's no way I can take that

money and in good consciousness

413

talk about these things with my

audience 'cause it doesn't fit.

414

But then I do work with Adobe Express

'cause I'll talk about how I can,

415

save time or I use their branding

tools to get my work out there.

416

So with me it's having integrity of

the work that you want to talk about

417

and the work that you promote as well.

418

And last but not least, I

think if you have a win.

419

There's this kind of LinkedIn speak that

we have, like I'm excited, I'm delighted.

420

I'm thrilled to announce, which is fine if

you speak like that, but most of us don't.

421

So I think really staying true to

how you talk, which can be hard,

422

but if something good happens to me.

423

I really think about how would I

be telling my best friend this?

424

How would I be telling my

husband this or my kids this?

425

Like how would I be explaining what it is?

426

And often I will share the journey

of, you know, how it got here.

427

So.

428

A great example is gonna be like when

I share this podcast episode, I'm not

429

gonna be like, Hey, I'm on this podcast.

430

I'm gonna be like, Hey,

Joanna's one of my paid readers.

431

She saw that I was gonna be

trying to get on more podcasts in

432

2026, so she actually invited me.

433

I actually am the first person

she's invited on, so it's a win-win.

434

Here's the chat, which is so much more

interesting than I'm on Joanna's podcast.

435

So true.

436

And it sounds so obvious, but honestly,

it's so easy to forget, isn't it?

437

And I think that's why you are

so successful, because you really

438

do share your journey so much.

439

And in your newsletter you

talk about those daily moments.

440

So tell us more about how you

prioritize being real versus AI.

441

That's a really good question.

442

You know, for me, AI is

like a virtual assistant.

443

It's never gonna be doing the lion's

work, it's never gonna be generating

444

my newsletter copy from scratch.

445

But I might go in and say,

can you give this a subedit?

446

We actually had, in one of the live

calls that's in the archive on the

447

paid newsletter was with a journalist

from Forbes and she specializes in AI.

448

She has an AI coaching business as well.

449

She gave this really great example of.

450

If there is a journalist that you know

you wanna pitch to, or if there's a

451

podcast that you know you want to be

on, cut and paste the last 20 titles

452

of the episode or of the articles, and

then put your story in and ask it to

453

help you put a tailored pitch together.

454

And I think using it like that

and then writing it in your own

455

words so it's not, all EM dashes,

um, is a nice thing to do and I.

456

I'm very, uh, in a gray area of ai.

457

I'm not massively pro it.

458

I'm not massively against it.

459

I'm still very much playing with it.

460

So I quite like to do actually

my manifestation boards with it.

461

So I'll be like, here's a

photo of me put me on a.

462

Private jet on my way to

do a public speaking gig.

463

Or put me in a bookshop signing

copies of my next fiction book

464

with a queue of people in the room.

465

And so I kind of use it to create,

visual prompts for me as well.

466

So I have like a mood board

of different AI visuals.

467

I think the trick with AI as well,

particularly when it comes to press

468

pictures, is also journalists sometimes,

like Jodi for example, she would told

469

us in the chat, she uses AI to filter

all of the press requests she gets.

470

So she's giving a prompt to ai, say like,

what are the most unusual stories here?

471

So I see a lot of particularly women

who will say, oh, well my story is I

472

had a corporate job, then I had a baby.

473

I had to quit, and so I

set up my own business.

474

I'm like, unfortunately,

that is most women I know.

475

Like that's not an original piece.

476

Sadly.

477

I wish it was.

478

I wish it was unique.

479

It's actually a very typically global

thing, so then it's putting the spin

480

on it of you know, I was on maternity

leave and actually I was at my gym

481

class and it was the person next to

me who said this, and that's what

482

prompted me, set up my new business.

483

And it's just getting that

alternative narrative in there.

484

I think so many people want, and

I wish it worked this way as well.

485

Their work to speak for themselves and be

like, yeah, but I just do excellent work.

486

That should, should be enough.

487

And it can be, it absolutely can be.

488

But then there's no pipeline or

guarantee of anybody else discovering

489

you that if you then run out of word

of mouth within your your network,

490

you do start to get a bit stumped.

491

So I think being able to talk

about why you've done the things

492

you've done in your business.

493

Is the kind of antidote to AI

where it's just, here's how you

494

do this, here's how you do that.

495

Because we can just Google that.

496

Yeah, totally.

497

And it brings me back to a really cringe

moment when in COVID I wrote a book called

498

Your Dream Job Toolkit, and my cousin

is a producer for BBC Radio London and

499

said, I'll get you on what's your angle?

500

And I said, well, it's COVID,

everyone's losing their job.

501

She didn't say boring to my face, but

it certainly wasn't an interesting

502

enough angle, it just being COVID

and people losing their jobs.

503

So at the time I didn't

understand angles clearly.

504

Now I would know to come up

with something more interesting,

505

but yeah, kind of cringe.

506

No, it's not cringe I think if you don't,

you don't know what you don't know.

507

And to you, when you are working on

it, you're like, oh, this is the thing.

508

And then, you know, if you do,

then go, okay, but what do I offer?

509

What's my angle that

nobody else could have?

510

And sometimes that does overlap.

511

Like there are a lot of other prs for

small business owners out there who

512

are teaching or other PR newsletters.

513

But then I also have the but I've moved

abroad and I have three children and I've

514

gone from corporate to solopreneurship

and I also have grown my income by

515

exploring these other revenue streams.

516

So it's the whole picture together

that makes wanting to work with me

517

different to some of my peers who are

just as great, who are just as amazing.

518

They will just have a different

flavor palette to one I'm offering.

519

Yeah.

520

Such a good reminder.

521

So you've mentioned different

income streams a few times.

522

Tell us more about how PR can help

to fill those other income streams.

523

Yeah, so I think one of the things

that I've really realized is if

524

we don't tell people what it is

we do, they can't buy from us.

525

So I'm a real big fan.

526

I'm gonna get to the income streams.

527

I promise I'm getting there.

528

But like I'm a big fan of having a

ways to work with me pinned post on

529

your social media or on your LinkedIn

or you know, even right up top on your

530

website because it can often be, so,

clear to us how you can work with us.

531

But if you imagine you are a restaurant

and somebody walks past and you're not

532

there, you need that menu in the shop

window so that if they wanna come back

533

later, they know what it is that they can.

534

And I think for me, I knew I wanted

to get out of one-to-one client work.

535

I wanted to get out of the retained

agency model and I was scaling up

536

with freelancers for bigger projects.

537

And what started happening is every

time I try to dabble in building

538

this other arm of my business.

539

I would feel the need to support it by

taking on another client, and then I'd

540

be taking on a team and then all of a

sudden I was like, hold on a minute.

541

I've suddenly grown into a

micro agency again, which is

542

not what I meant to be doing.

543

So like when I set up my business,

I had three months savings in the

544

bank and I was like, I've three

months worth of income, covered.

545

I was like, I'm gonna give myself a run of

three months to try and make some income.

546

And that was to get my own clients

but I had the backup plan of if I

547

can't get my own clients, I can either

freelance with some other PR agencies,

548

or I'll go back into agency land.

549

So I always, in everything I

do in my life, I always have

550

a plan B and plan C there.

551

And then when I moved to France,

I was like, okay, I've got this

552

opportunity to start again.

553

And so you might be going, well, why did

you give yourself three months the first

554

time around in three years this time?

555

And I guess the difference was, is that

I had these other income streams, some

556

of which I cultivated, some of which

came naturally, but that gave me the

557

freedom to play around with what I wanted

to be the dominant side of my business.

558

So for me, growing different

income streams is really important.

559

And I also, I've spoken about in the past,

I don't speak about as much now, but one

560

of my children was born with a congenital

heart defect, and I was expecting us.

561

It hasn't happened yet.

562

Maybe it never will, but we

were expecting to have some

563

more open heart surgery for him.

564

So I also wanted to have a bit more

of a flexible working model in place

565

so that I could press pause rather

than have all this work lined up.

566

So there was kind of the personal

and the professional reasons why

567

I wanted different income streams.

568

So it started with,

dabbling in online courses.

569

And then I actually, when

I was writing my book.

570

The book in a way was a source of income.

571

It's not a huge source of income, but I

would say over a couple of years that's

572

generated maybe about 15,000 pounds,

like over three to four years, but it's

573

opened doors to other opportunities.

574

So a lot of people might read the

book and then book me for a one to

575

one coaching call, like one off.

576

Or I've had like brands come or workshop,

workspaces, accelerators, universities

577

who've then asked me to come in and

talk about the themes around the book.

578

So the book was actually a really good

kind of calling party to other things.

579

My issue with online courses

is if they're evergreen.

580

Which is a little bit like my

newsletter now, you have to find

581

that energy to always be selling.

582

And when you open and close it, it can

also be quite draining to have this big

583

launch moment and this big closing moment.

584

And I think we don't always give

ourselves enough time to do it.

585

And I do see a lot of people in the

service based world, giving so much

586

trying to sell that when they actually

then have to deliver the actual learning

587

part of it, they're quite burnt out.

588

So I think they're trying to find a way

of selling that course or the evergreen

589

model that you know, it can be hard.

590

And actually for me now, I do have the

newsletter all year round, but I plan

591

out my year and I'm like, these are

the key moments that I'm gonna push.

592

So maybe there's a freebie, maybe

there's a great live class coming

593

up, or like I give myself key

moments, but I'm really gonna push

594

at this time so that I still have it.

595

Same with my book as well, even the books,

six years old now, so I still do okay.

596

This is gonna be, a week where I

do a lot on the book just to remind

597

people and to get it back out there.

598

But actually I think again, it is

back to this audacious goals thing.

599

I think I started off just being

like, I wanna get on big podcasts.

600

Who's got a podcast?

601

Do anyone in my audience have a podcast?

602

I did a call out in the newsletter

saying I wanted to do more, workshops and

603

then people came back to me from that.

604

I had, this epiphany last year that

I actually live in a part of France

605

where there's loads of retreats.

606

And instead of having to put on my own

retreat, I could maybe guest speak at

607

somebody else's so I could still get to

explore different parts of France, but

608

just show up, do my thing and, and leave.

609

And that led to.

610

An American reader, connected me

with somebody else he knew who

611

was doing a retreat in Provence.

612

So I got to do a guest

after dinner talk last year.

613

Obviously now I do my own, creative

writing retreats, which that came

614

about because when I first moved

to France, I did a phone call with

615

another self-employed woman who

had moved to France and we were

616

just sharing tips on doing it.

617

And then she runs these coworking,

holidays in the summer for

618

families where you get three

hours free childcare every day.

619

And we were just chatting and I said, oh,

I want to do more in France, but I'm not

620

French enough to do it in French yet and I

don't wanna be too much in the expat land.

621

And she was like, actually, we wanna

do a creative writing retreat here.

622

Do you wanna do something here?

623

And so think sometimes just

kind of telling people,

624

this is what I'd like to do.

625

It's really underestimated as a PR tool.

626

So for me it's, it just gives you that

freedom and flexibility to use your

627

skills in a different way whilst you

maybe wanna change your business model

628

or do something else, with your work.

629

Yeah, I think it's a real skill

that you've got to be able to

630

just keep sharing what you want.

631

And even the example of how you got

into this podcast, for example, you

632

know, most of us just don't think that

way of like, oh, how did that happen?

633

Let me tell the story.

634

Any tips on how we can remember those

moments enough to communicate them?

635

I guess I think about any PR

moment as like the Holy Trinity.

636

Most of us focus on the end

and then you do it once.

637

Whereas I'm very much like, this

is the pre, so this is like what's

638

happening behind the scenes.

639

This is the during, so, I nearly took

a photo of myself before the session.

640

I was like, no, I'm gonna wait

till Jonathan, I'll take a photo

641

so I can take it on Instagram.

642

Just to be like, this is what

I've done for the last hour.

643

Then there's after.

644

And I think people are so guilty of

sharing once, maybe feeling a bit

645

awkward about sharing or don't really

know how to share it, and then you

646

never see the light a day ever again.

647

So actually I think it's really

nice to have moments to be like, oh,

648

actually, a year ago I did this, or six

months ago I did that and reshare it.

649

And the likelihood is even if you campaign

on a bit of promo, it's unlikely that

650

your audience is gonna see it all anyway.

651

I also think it's actually getting really

comfortable with repeating yourself, which

652

as mothers we should be quite good at.

653

Because, you know, we're constantly

putting coat on, put your shoes, you

654

know, I think we underestimate the

importance of repetition and to you.

655

I remember the first time I started doing

podcast, I was like, I'm just telling

656

the same story every time, but actually.

657

I'm gonna go back to my idol Ru Paul.

658

Now if you go, if you lo watch any

press interview with RuPaul from

659

RuPaul's Drag Race, it is the same

stories like he will tell a story about

660

his sisters and sitting down in the

garden and getting a blanket out and

661

them saying to him, this is a picnic.

662

So you feel like you get this insight

into his life, but it's the same story.

663

Doesn't matter if he's on masterclass or

he's on an American newspaper interview.

664

So I think there's this sort of element

of as well in protecting yourself and

665

having these guardrails of knowing, okay,

these are the sort of stories that I'm

666

happy to talk about and these things

over here are private and just for me.

667

Yeah.

668

Love it.

669

And it's so true.

670

There's a podcast I listen to and this

woman says the same phrases in nearly

671

all of her episodes and I love it 'cause

I get to say it out loud in the car.

672

I'm like, I know.

673

I know what's coming next.

674

You get quite excited about

knowing the phrases, so it is a

675

great reminder about repetition.

676

So do you think anything has

changed in pitching for PR

677

versus say, five years ago?

678

Yeah, I would say.

679

A few things.

680

One is that the press landscape has

shrunk even more like traditional press.

681

I see a lot more freelancers now,

which again, I think it's even better

682

for us as individuals because we can

find freelancers a lot more easily, or

683

freelancers are putting call outs, a

lot more for requests for information.

684

So I think that's one of the things.

685

The second thing I would say is, with the

rise of Substack and beehive and ghost,

686

this kind of independent media newsletter

territory, I would is not to be slept on.

687

I think if you don't have a pitching

to be an other people's newsletter

688

strategy, you should definitely

consider it because the reach from a

689

newsletter is often a lot higher than

the engagement rate on social media.

690

For example, my open rate on my

free to read newsletters, 50%.

691

Whereas the engagement rate on my

Instagram, on a great day will be 2%.

692

Most of the time it's at 1%, but

the audience is the same size.

693

And actually, I saw a talk

at Cannes Lions last summer.

694

There was a guy there called Sun

Yi who runs a, an agency in the US.

695

He also works in storytelling

and brand building.

696

And he said, one newsletter subscriber is

worth a hundred of social media followers.

697

Because the credibility of the

newsletter subscriber and the

698

quality of that person is much

better than a social media follower.

699

So if, for example, you were thinking,

alright, I'm just gonna try and do an

700

IG Live, for example, or a LinkedIn live

with 10 people who've got 10 K followers,

701

well, you could find 10 people with

a thousand readers on beehive and get

702

the same amount of reach, if not more.

703

Gosh, mind blowing.

704

So tell us more about why you

decided to prioritize this in

705

your business, your newsletter.

706

It was the passion really.

707

You know, right back to my origin story.

708

I wanted to be a journalist.

709

I wanted to be a writer.

710

, That was always my, my medium of

choice and to be honest, now there is

711

probably a bit of, I use it as a bit

of a creative outlet for me as well.

712

So it's never just.

713

Here's how to do this.

714

It's, there's always a personal

anecdote in there from me or from

715

somebody else again, because I

think that goes against anti AI.

716

But because I also personally

love storytelling, I've

717

been doing it for 20 years.

718

So, um, I love bringing stories into

what is quite a snake oiled industry

719

and dispelling the myths around it.

720

But like I said, you know, I always

got the, the multiple plans in my head.

721

So actually before I started it

as a paid model, I had a free

722

newsletter for five years where I

rate something once a month for free.

723

And then in that pregnancy, before

I launched a paid model, I wrote,

724

I think I tried to write a hundred

articles in three months on Medium.

725

And what was really nice about

that is like the kind of MVPing of

726

the product, like just the minimum

viable like product testing.

727

And what was really interesting

to me was it wasn't the press

728

pieces or how to get PR pieces

that were performing really well.

729

It was the ones where I was talking

about my entrepreneurial journey

730

or sharing how I had made income or

sharing how I had landed my book deal,

731

that most people were engaging with.

732

And that was a real light bulb moment

for me that sometimes we try so hard

733

to sell a product or a service and it

feels like pushing water up a hill.

734

So when you test something and it goes

really well, I think that's a really

735

good signal that that's something you

should then continue doing and like

736

a case in point, like I told myself a

story that I live in rural France, that

737

I don't have a French network, that

I don't even really have an English

738

self-employed network near my house.

739

So I couldn't do a retreat at my house.

740

I had to do it where I knew

somebody else had a retreat.

741

And then I decided before Christmas,

I wrote it down in a newsletter.

742

I want to do a day retreat at my house.

743

One person on Instagram sent me a

story and said, oh, if you do it at

744

your house, she's in Paris, so if

you do it at your house, I'll come.

745

And I thought, I didn't know if she

will or not, but you know what, I'm

746

just gonna put it up on my website.

747

And I did maybe four Instagram stories

and I sold all five spots in five days.

748

And nobody's local.

749

I've got one from Lisbon, one

from the uk, two from Exxon

750

Provence, and one's from Paris.

751

And it really sort of showed me.

752

You know, you really told yourself

you wouldn't be able to sell a

753

product like that, even though that's

something you really wanted to do.

754

'cause I don't have to leave my house.

755

I still can pick my kids up from

school after the day's finished.

756

You know, all these things

that actually stay easy for me.

757

But I had told myself, no, I

can't sell something like that.

758

I don't have the audience

to sell something like that.

759

And then I put it out there and I did.

760

And I think there's a real

lesson there for anybody.

761

If you want to try and sell something

a bit different within your service,

762

just to test it and tell people

that you're testing it, you know, I

763

put it out there as a pilot price.

764

Tell people that you're

trialing something.

765

That's what I did with the

paid newsletter as well.

766

I was like, you know,

I'm gonna try doing this.

767

This is the pilot price

that I'm offering it on.

768

If you wanna come, and I became a Substack

bestseller at that time I was on Substack.

769

I'm now on my own.

770

But at that time I became a

Substack bestseller in six weeks,

771

which I could never have imagined.

772

I thought maybe I'll get like 10 people.

773

Yeah.

774

Super inspiring.

775

And again, it's just the thread that's

run through the whole thing is just

776

keep sharing what you're doing in real

life moments, and I love the before

777

middle and after to try and help us

remember what those moments are as well.

778

So if people are now thinking,

I'd love to focus on PR, what

779

would be their next steps?

780

What to come and follow me.

781

Oh, yeah, yeah.

782

Come and follow you is

the perfect next step.

783

Yeah.

784

So where can they find you?

785

But also in summary, where

would you recommend beginning

786

if someone wants to get into PR?

787

So in summary, I'd say get your,

get your media toolkit ready.

788

Get your foundations in order.

789

So get your bio, get your headshot, get

your one liner, get yourself matching

790

across all social media channels.

791

Make sure it's super clear.

792

Make sure you know what it

is that you are selling.

793

What's your hero product?

794

What are you selling right now?

795

Not 10 things, not 20 things like

two to three things max, that you

796

hero things that you are selling.

797

Get that pinned across your social media.

798

And then know what your

business goals are.

799

And give yourself a media list of like,

okay, here's 10 podcasts I'm gonna pitch

800

to, here's 10 newsletters I'm gonna pitch

to, here's 10 newspapers or magazines

801

that I'm gonna study for the next couple

of months, just to get a feel of what

802

are the stories that they're writing and

where could I fit in that world, I think

803

look can be said for doing research.

804

Spend your time doing the research.

805

That's the hard bit.

806

You could just slap the paint

up on the wall of your house.

807

But actually the best bit is when you

peel the wallpaper off and you sand it

808

down, you get all the prep work done.

809

So you need to be

thinking of it like that.

810

And enjoy it.

811

Like try and find a way

to have a good time.

812

'cause when you have a good time,

we have a good time with you.

813

Right?

814

Nobody wants to watch somebody trembling

on stage, reading off bits of paper.

815

And don't get me wrong, I definitely

throw a bit of a Robbie Williams.

816

Adele.

817

Every time before I go on stage,

I start like cursing something

818

like, why am I doing this?

819

Even sometimes with my own group on a

monthly live when I'm teaching, I love the

820

feeling after teaching that I've helped.

821

But in that prep time before, I'm

constantly like, why am I doing this?

822

I hate it.

823

I can't do it.

824

I'm coming out in like red

patches all over my body.

825

But I do love it at the same time.

826

But ultimately you've gotta find

a way that feels, feels good to

827

you, and don't be scared to ask.

828

Like the small business world is

a really, really supportive space.

829

But you have to ask and you

have to be prescriptive.

830

And actually this is good life advice.

831

I'm not very good at taking either.

832

When you are very specific and

this is the help I need, then

833

people know how they can help you.

834

And I think especially

when we're self-employed.

835

You know, our work is so

intertwined with our life.

836

And, you know, as women sometimes

we're also not great at accepting

837

help without thinking we, we've got to

return the favor now, but I think, you

838

know, just having that confidence to

say, this is the audience I'm trying to

839

reach, and I'd love to be on a podcast.

840

Does anybody have one?

841

Worst thing it can happen.

842

Nobody responds.

843

Love it.

844

Thank you so, so much.

845

So tell us more about how we can find you.

846

Either your free or your

paid newsletter or socials.

847

Thank you, Joanna.

848

I thought you, you could see

the hype for me, can't you?

849

Yeah, I can.

850

I'm part of Lucy's paid

newsletter and I love it.

851

What works for me is making

a project for a quarter.

852

So for example, I made a quarter of, I'm

gonna be podcast guesting this quarter.

853

I made another quarter LinkedIn focus.

854

So I dunno why I am scared to make pr,

PR really, really going into your world

855

now I have your amazing newsletter.

856

I'm gonna need to hunt Joanna

down and be like, where are you?

857

Why aren't you in class?

858

But you can catch all the classes on

replay and it's all on hypeyourself.com.

859

Then the newsletter is

there as the hype community.

860

Or if you want a gentle way to

start, you can just buy my book Hype

861

Yourself, which has it all in there,

how to put a media toolkit together.

862

And I also have a lot of free to read

articles as well, so you can have a

863

dig about on the site and you can see

what's free to read or what's paid.

864

And if you really wanna hang out,

I've still got some spaces for

865

my creative writing retreat in

September, in the middle of France.

866

You can get a train from

Paris or you can fly.

867

So come and come and hang out.

868

Love it.

869

Thank you so, so much, Lucy.

870

I cannot wait to listen to this back.

871

So much gold.

872

I need to write notes next time.