This is the Part 2 of a discussion with Pejman Mirza-Babaei. Pejman is an Associate Dean, Industry Partnerships and an Associate Professor of User Experience Research in the Faculty of Business and Information Technology at the University of Ontario Institute of Technology. In the Part 1 he talked about his research and getting to tenure. In this second half we explore Pejman’s experiences in navigating life post-tenure, working out how he can have the biggest impact, and learning to become an academic leader, in particular what it is useful to focus on and how to get the best out of people.

“I need to constantly remind myself that I can take a break [at evenings, on the weekend, taking holidays]… It’s becoming more normal now and I’m actually enjoying it.”

“I know what I don’t want to do but too many things that I want to do.” 

“I try to understand the impact of the choices that I make but also knowing that I cannot predict the future so the thing that I decide to do at the time is probably the best.”

“It sometimes takes years to understand if a decision you made at some point was a good decision or a bad decision.”

He talks about (approximately): [You can download a full transcript here]

1:30 Until his tenure he always had very clear goals. Then suddenly it’s ‘what do I do now?’. He really enjoyed preparing his tenure application because it was an opportunity to step back and look at what he had done and figure out the story to tell. Thought about it for 2-3 weeks without writing anything. Then in a matter of a few hours he drafted a couple of pages. Found it very rewarding to see what he had done and think about them. But afterwards no clear task. How to prepare to be a full professor? Tries to figure what gives him satisfaction, that have a bigger impact. And what are those? Not only to figure out which ones he cares about but how fast do you see that impact to get the satisfaction?

5:20 One reason that the academic job is so challenging is that the feedback loop [re the impact] is quite long. Cares about having an impact on someone’s life eg for a student. “That’s my highest priority. What I also found myself being interested in is how can I help others like a junior faculty.” More papers, he will be happy but not sacrificing the other things for another paper. Now more selective, which student to accept, what paper to write or what grant to apply for. Now feels better about the papers he submits now. Tries to submit papers with a good chance of being accepted vs all accepted. Now only go to conferences he cares about. So a change in strategy.

9:10 Aim is trying to bring that balance back in his life. All positions come with sacrifices until you reach a level where you feel more stable. He talks about working really hard up to tenure and now not working so hard, not weekends or evenings any more as he used to do up to tenure. Used to neglect relationships with people he cared about. Now trying to rebuild those relationships. Trying to have his life back.

When he tries not to work on the weekend can feel bad but has to constantly remind himself that he can take a break. Becoming more normal now and actually enjoying it.

13:55 Talks about scuba diving that he used to do, that he has returned to post-tenure.

15:00 Discusses moving into admin and postponing his sabbatical for this. Wanted to see if he could have a different type of impact. Also trying to figure out if uni admin leadership role is something he wants to do as a long term career path. Still trying to figure that out. Still works closely with industry partners and really enjoys solving industry problems through lends of academic research.  “I know what I don’t want to do but too many things that I want to do.”

17:40 How will he make choices? Tells story of not being able to decide re Masters – what if I choose the wrong thing? Advice from cousin about you are only making a choice on the information you have at that time and that will be the best choice you can make. And if you don’t make that choice, other factors will make it for you. A factor that shouldn’t be determining your choice. Now one of his decision-making strategies. Tries to understand the impact of the choices he makes but knowing he cannot predict the future. One thing he tries to do is try to influence or manage his manager to make that decision together. Talks about book on how to get a PhD with a chapter on how to manage your supervisor.  Very helpful to know how to get what you want from other people.

21:30 Key skills learnt as a manager? First thing he learnt is that he doesn’t know anything about academic leadership so started training himself. Sees a big difference between academic and industry leadership positions. In industry have duties and power. In academic set up the power balance doesn’t exist. ‘I am one of the faculty members similar others. Some are higher ranked and now I have to ask them to do something.” In the company call a meeting and everyone comes. In the university, call a meeting and 2 out of 10 come and you can’t do anything to the other 8. Still learning. Most managers try to figure out how to do tasks and processes more efficiently but you can’t be efficient with people. Efficient way might not be the effective or best way.  The other thing, we often aim for perfection. But you realise soon to aim for ‘good enough’.

25:30 How to judge good enough? At the beginning he thought if he could do everything himself he would achieve the perfect result. Very soon he realized it is not doable. One of the weaknesses he tries to improve is how to delegate to people. And give them the space for how they would do it and then accept the result. It might be different to what he wanted but it does the job. Needs to keep reminding colleagues we are not trying to run the best faculty or ideal … we are not trying to be a modern democracy but still need to decide what tasks are important and where to put the effort because we don’t have unlimited resources. That’s the role of a good leader.

At the time we all make decisions hoping for the best result.

29:42 Finally highlighting that sometimes listening to people’s stories feels like they make all the right decisions because we usually tell the successes. But it sometimes takes years to understand if a decision you made at some point was a good decision or a bad decision. Looking back you can then realise the things you can learn and the dots you can connect. And that’s the exciting part. He always asks for feedback from mentors. The things he wants to do and things he should do. Choices as part of the job you want to do.

36:40 End