In this podcast, you’ll meet Carrie Uhl, Chief Procurement Officer for GE Healthcare. Carrie is one of the most impactful supply chain leaders in not one, but two different industries. She shares with us her belief in bringing her best self to work, being tough on issues and not people, and being relentlessly positive.

02:24 – Carrie’s formative years in Pittsburgh

04:15 – First job in Supply Chain, with Guardian Industries

05:31 – After many years in Automotive, moving on to healthcare

08:46 – Carrie’s leadership style

10:14 – How Carrie creates a safe environment

12:50 – Building high-performance teams

17:48 – Lean Thinking

18:30 – Carrie’s definition of Gravitas

22:17 – How Carrie’s leadership style has evolved

28:16 – Developing people globally

31:14 – Work/Life balance

36:15 – Carrie’s surprising morning routine

40:47 – Carrie’s advice to her 25-year-old self

42:38 – Carrie’s legacy

Please share your thoughts on this episode, email me at Jan@gravitasdetroit.com,  I'd love to hear from you.

[Transcript]

Get ready, Finding Gravitas audience because you're about to meet one of the most dynamic and impactful supply chain leaders in not one but two different industries. You're going to meet Carrie Uhl. Carrie today sits at the top of her game as Chief Procurement Officer for GE Healthcare. She is extremely well known and respected in the automotive industry. And when you listen to this podcast, you'll understand why Carrie believes in bringing your best self to work. She is tough on issues, and not on people. She is relentlessly positive. You'll also hear the personal side. And you'll hear something about how she starts her day. And you'll hear the shock in my voice when she shares with us exactly how she does that. Carrie Uhl, welcome to the show.

Thanks Jan. I am an avid listener of the podcast. So I'm super excited to be a guest today. Thanks for having me.

It's great to have you here. We've known each other for several years in many different capacities in the corporate role in automotive on supply chain boards with Wayne State and OESA and others. And we've had many conversations about leadership. But I've never had the opportunity to ask you this question, so here it is. Carrie Uhl, what is your story?

What is my story? Well Jan, my story started in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, it’s one of my favorite towns, shaped a lot of who I am. I grew up with a younger brother and two working parents who always were very intentional about working different shifts, so somebody could be home with us. I grew up with family, grandmother who worked at night cleaning bank, grandfathers who worked blue collar jobs in steel and copper mills, and really learned a work ethic. I studied a lot, I was kind of a geek in high school, but I was also the head cheerleader. So I had a wide variety of friends that I liked to learn from.

And as much as I love Pittsburgh, I always feel like if you grow up in one area of the country, and you have the means you should experience something different. So I wanted to go to the southeast, I thought about the West Coast, but I wanted to go somewhere warm. And make sure that that I got a chance to see a new region of the country. So I went to college at Vanderbilt University and I thought that I was going to be a chemistry teacher after my four years there. I quickly learned that as much as I love chemistry, I don't want to be in the lab all day. That's not me. And so I decided to switch to human and organizational development. Something that most people don't even know exists as a field you can study at an undergraduate level. But I really love the theory of how intentional strategy around people and how they're organized and how they communicate can really make or break an organization. So I loved my study there.

I worked my way out of college into a headhunting job for my first year and a half kind of using those people's skills. I had this vision of headhunting being going to networking breakfasts and shaking hands, and I didn't realize it was going to be being on the phone all day. So I quickly realized I need a little more face to face interaction. And I found supply chain. And I moved to Guardian Industries, fantastic company, privately held, you might remember Bill Davidson, who owned the Pistons, Bill was the CEO and the owner there. And I spent six years there back in the time of business process reengineering, if you remember that from the 90s. And my role was to really look at how our purchasing and accounting functions were flowing, and re-engineer them with the team, and roll that out with a new ERP system. And I had a chance to do that in factories all around the world. I think I had been to like 13 countries before I was 25 it just a phenomenal experience to work for a global company. And I knew after that I could never work in a company that's not global.

I wanted to learn the auto industry, had some experience with it through Guardian, so I moved over to Lear, which was a great place to get into the fundamentals of what it means to be an automotive. And after three years at Lear, I found my way to Magna International and I spent 14 years at Magna, just a phenomenal company, I had a chance to come in and buy resin, and really learn the interior space, and then eventually be our VP of Purchasing and Supply Chain for the last nine years.

And then as much as I love the automotive industry, I started to get a little itch to do something different. So a couple of years ago, I moved over to healthcare, completely different. And I've been here as our CPO at GE Healthcare. Nobody could have predicted that I was going to join healthcare right before COVID hit. So it's been a wild ride, talk about an incredible time to learn a business under fire. So it's been very exciting. That's how I got where I am, Jan.

The transition from automotive to healthcare, that had to be quite something. Share with us some of the differences that you saw moving from the automotive industry to the healthcare industry.

Sure Jan, it was quite the transition. I remember, coming in on my second day, first day you're just finding your way, the second day starting to look into what is our buy, what is our spend. And the first thing that struck me was how different the mix is. So I'm used to automotive, we're used to very high volume, kind of a low mix. Medical is the opposite, medical device technology at least, where it's low volume, we may only make a couple thousand of a piece of equipment a year, let alone a day. And it's very high mix. And I think the other thing that that really struck me was how long products are in the market. Some of our equipment’s in the market 20 plus years. And so it really changes the way you have to think about your supplier relationships and the way that you build your product roadmaps. So that was probably the biggest difference for me. There's a lot of things that are the same though, they're both industrial manufacturing, you can apply lean, very similar in regulatory requirements, very tough regulatory requirements in both industries, medical’s extremely tough, almost every part on your equipment is going to be safety relevant. So it's really changed the way I think about supplier relationships to change industries.

The one thing that doesn't change, I'm sure, are people. People are people, it doesn't matter what industry they're in. Did you have to change your leadership style at all?

No, I didn't. Because you're exactly right. People are people. And I will say, having worked in both industries now, the level of talent in the team that surrounds me, has blown me away. I think that the other thing that's very in common between both industries is people feel a real passion for the product. When you're in the automotive industry, you often hear about people who, you know, I grew up around cars, I'm a car gal, I'm a car guy, people in medical technology, also extremely passionate about their products, a real connection to the patient. And knowing that what we work on could be the very thing that improves the life of you or your family member in a moment that matters. So very similar engagement from the people and I really didn't have to change my leadership style at all.

Tell us more about that leadership style. I know, I've known you long enough to know that you are indeed an authentic leader. But tell us what that really means to you. And what is your leadership style?

Yeah, Jan, if I had to sum it up, I would say for me, being an authentic leader really means you're bringing 100% your best self to work, and that you put in place the freedom for your team to bring their best self. I think that's the hallmark of being authentic, so that no one's got to put on any kind of a facade, they can really speak their mind, share their ideas, that's super important to me. Being transparent that no one needs to guess what you think. Whether it's good news, whether it's bad news, giving your team the safety to tell it like it is. And I think the way you build that trust is really showing genuine care and respect for each other not just professionally, you can build a professional only relationship but it's not nearly as strong as if you really try to get to know a whole person. Another thing I try to do

And how do you do that? You know, I'm imagining here you are right, you come from this this big automotive job, if I was a buyer at GE Healthcare and here you know, I read all about you I check you out on social media on LinkedIn because you're coming in as the new boss right? I'm gonna be a little guarded at first as I think we all are when we meet our new boss, you know, let alone when they come from a different industry. What do you do to try and let the team know that you really a human being and it is okay, and you want to generate that safe environment? What are some of the things that you do to make that happen?

I think the first thing that I did when I came in was just talk about myself as a person, right? I talked about being from Pittsburgh, I said, look, if we ever have a meeting, and you're gonna bring lunch in, make it pizza, that's my favorite thing. Right? And just be relatable. Because it starts with that. And then I think, also listening. Oh, you got to listen more than you talk. That's so important. You can't get to know someone when you're the one talking. So, where do they come from? What's important to them? What are their challenges? What are their wins, and celebrating people's wins, and celebrating each other's wins as a team, I think builds a lot of trust. So that's what I tried to do.

You know, we grew up in automotive with a leadership model that said that you need to be tough, you need to be strong. And I would say many years ago, if you showed care and concern for your people, and you really connected with them at that deeply human level, that that was often considered a sign of weakness. That you were soft if you did that. How did you manage to, if you will, get over that to become a really authentic leader, and to switch that into being a strength of leadership?

Yeah, Jan, for me, I just never bought into that in the first place. I just didn't, it's not my style. It's not the way I work. And I don't think I could be in an environment trying to pretend to be something I'm not. So I've just embraced from the beginning, that you can be tough. There's nothing that says you can't be nice to people and be tough at the same time. You're tough on issues, not necessarily tough on people. And I think that's really the key thing, know when to be tough. And know what your result is, if you're trying to be tough. When addressing people leadership, yeah, it's really important to trust the team, and be yourself. And look, caring about people, if you look at any of the workplace indexes today that measure level of engagement score, which directly correlates to profitability, there's no question on there about is your boss tough and do you respect that? There's a whole lot of questions about, do I have good relationships at work? Is there someone who cares about me and my performance? So the data proves out over and over that developing those relationships is what makes high performance teams.

High performance teams, there’s a subject. What is a high performance team to you, and how do you create it?

You know for me, there, let me tell you what has to happen to have a high performance team, and coming through COVID, particularly, I'm convinced if you don't have one mission, one team, you're not going to perform. If you've got people worried about their own metrics, their own way of being measured, you're not going to have a high performing team overall. So you've got to really rally around and be very clear about what is our mission as a team, I think it starts with that. When I look back through the last year, coming through COVID, and at GE we make ventilators, so obviously that was a product much needed for public health and in high demand. And it was an incredible task to ramp the volume from, you know, several thousand to unconstrained demand in a very short period of time. So that was our one mission. And what I saw in the people rallying around that when it was very clear, this is our purpose, this is what we need to do, you see communication multiply, you see the energy level go through the roof, you see a level of positivity, when you're focused on one mission, and you see a level of speed that, for me, was just incredible to witness. And I think the key is how do you take those crisis situations where you're rallied around a mission, and translate that into every day? So that's something our team's thinking about. How do we keep this going?

I love what you say about the mission and rallying people around that mission. And one of the things that's always, quite frankly, impressed me about you, is the fact that you're able to have your hands into the detail. You've always got the data around you. Yet you're able to look forward, look onward and upward strategically as a leader, it's very difficult to manage both. How do you do that? How do you stay so in touch and connected with the detail, and performance a leader looking onward and upward and developing that mission and getting people behind that mission. How do you do that?

Jan, I think for me, it's, first of all talking about being into the detail, you have to know the important detail. And that is the differentiation, you've got to know what level of detail is going to impact today, and what level of detail is going to impact where you're going tomorrow, and be very specific with your team also, about what you need to know, and what you 100% trust them to handle, and you don't need to know. So I think that's the first thing is being very clear about that with yourself and with your team and with the people that are relying on you, your superiors as well. So that's the first thing. In terms of strategy, boy, when you get into the detail, it can be very hard to think five steps ahead. Right, it's very easy to say I don't have time for that. I'm very intentional about carving time out no matter how busy and how many fires there are, you've got to carve time out to think and plan. And I think without that it's just too easy to get caught in the day to day.

So I'll give you an example. Right now our teams are working, as all teams are in any company around the clock, right? We came out with, as best we can do it, let's try to have meeting free Fridays, right? Let's give ourselves that time to really focus on our strategy, on what we're doing, on getting some work done, on taking a breath. And I've seen a real difference in the motivation level of the team, knowing that it's okay for them to take some space, just as I take space to really think about where we're going and what we're doing.

Yeah, I think that's a really important point, taking that time to think, and having, actually scheduling the time to think. And so often, I know from my experience in automotive, you just went from meeting to meeting to meeting. And you were judged by how much of the detail you were actually into. If you didn't know the detail about multiple different things that you were somehow considered not a good leader, you know that you were meant to be down in the detail, in the weeds. And I don't agree with that at all, I agree with you, I think you need to go down, you need to drill deep on the important issues. But you've got to stay focused on the strategy. But I do love this idea of creating that white space and not feeling guilty about it. It is actually a strength to be able to step away from the day to day and say, okay, we need to breathe, we need to focus on who we are and where we're going. But that is very, very difficult to do.

It is difficult to do. But it's super important. And if you look at lean thinking, right? And you really embrace the concept of lean thinking, you have to step back and do that, you've got to look at the big picture, you got to do your value stream maps, you've got to recognize where lack of upfront strategy is causing you downstream waste, and be very intentional about calling it out and fixing it, because otherwise you just get caught in the loop.

Yeah, yeah. Well said Well said. We talked about authentic leadership. And as you know, Gravitas is the hallmark of authentic leadership. What is Gravitas to you?

You know, to me, Jan, It is a combination of different things. I think you've got to have some command of your subject, and be a subject matter expert. I think that's important for you to really display Gravitas that people are going to trust you and believe in what you're saying. That's important. I also think you really need to find the right balance of vulnerability and strength. This goes back to the question you asked earlier about, you know, how do you make it okay to have that balance? It's a balance, you can't go one way or the other. Certainly clear and concise thinking and speaking is important. And then I think the other thing that underpins it all, a lot of people think when you have Gravitas, it means you're always confident. I don't think it does. I think it means you're relentlessly positive. And with that comes success that breeds confidence. But it doesn’t start with confidence, it starts with relentless positivity.

Yeah, and being comfortable in your own skin. Yeah, I like that, relentless positivity. I see that as a quote out there on social media some point soon. Let's go back to your background for a moment. Because you mentioned Pittsburgh, and you know, Pittsburgh is a town as I'm sure you know, you grew up there, that's known for coal mining, right? There's actually a lot of Welsh people in Pittsburgh. There is because of the coal mining because Wales is all about coal mining. And I often talk about my background, you know, my parents were farmers and how that farming background influenced my leadership style and my work ethic. But how does your background really influenced your leadership style? Do you think?

Yeah, you know, I mentioned when I, when I talked about where I grew up in Pittsburgh, that, you know, I come from a family of really hard working people and my grandfathers, you know, worked in the steel mill, or the copper mill. And, you know, I watched that, so I grew up around it. The other thing that I love about Pittsburgh, it's like no place in the world, Jan, and I've lived in a lot of places. If you're from Pittsburgh, you don't care if somebody is a janitor or CEO, you really don't care. It's not about status. You get along with everybody, you respect everybody. The only exception I can think of to that is if you don't use Heinz ketchup, then people have a problem with you. But other than that, I grew up around respecting people for what they bring and for their, their talents, regardless. So I think I've really brought that into, into the way that I lead. The other thing was my study and my degree in human and organizational development. I can't say enough about that field. And it sounds like a soft field, what are you going to do with that degree? Well, you know what, you learn to be a leader. And no matter what you do, in your career, you have to have that leadership skill. So I think that study really helped develop my EQ, I read a lot of books, I just am fascinated by human and organizational development.

And how has your leadership style evolved over the years? I find, one of the guests I had on the show was Andy Palmer, the former CEO of Aston Martin. And it was amazing to hear how his leadership has evolved from the very aggressive British automotive industry back in the day to Nissan, and then back to Aston Martin. How has your leadership style evolved over the years?

I think the biggest change for me, Jan is I've gotten a lot better at giving difficult feedback. That was something early in my career, because I try to be relentlessly positive, right? It's difficult to give negative feedback. And I've really learned someone's, you know, they say feedback is a gift. It really is. And if you think about how you're developing yourself, I want feedback all the time. Good, bad, I want it all. So I've learned that I've got to give it all as well, and really get better at coaching. So I'd say that's how my leadership styles evolved. I've gotten a lot better at coaching.

Coaching is important. Having a mentor is important. Some of your mentors over the years, who would they be?

Oh, absolutely one that comes to mind. Guardian Industries. So my first real job when it came out of headhunting, I worked for a man named Joe Bruce, who was the VP of purchasing at the time. Joe, phenomenal leader, I count him in probably my top mentors still today. And very simple. You know, there was just a way that Joe had about making you feel as a as a 23 year old, that you own your work. And I remember, there was a presentation that I had worked on that was going to the president of the glass group at the time. And you know, I put some of the information together, I gave it to Joe and he said, you walk down that hall and present that to Russ. And of course, I'm shaking in my heels, right? I'm not ready to go talk to the president of a business unit. You know, and Joe said to me, if you mess it up, I have your back, and you won't mess it up the next time because you'll have learned. And that's such a simple, yet impactful thing to say. And the thing is, he really meant it. So, you know, through the years, I remember when I took my, when I was getting my promotion to VP at Magna. And of course, like a lot of people you don't feel ready, you are ready, but you don't feel ready. And I reached out to Joe and, you know, he reminded me, yes, you are ready, and he sent me one of those cards. They're called successories, do you remember, you've probably seen them on the wall and an office and, you know, with some motivational things. I've got mine still. This is 13 years later, I have it in my laptop bag. I carry it around with me. And he just had a really incredible way of encouraging you to take risks. And I think that's such an important quality in a mentor.

I agree with you and that I've heard that term now several times, just in the last few weeks, I've got your back. I use that a lot. And I think it's so powerful because you really are, you're empowering somebody, but you're giving them safety, you're giving them psychological safety. And as we both know, at Google project Aristotle, the number one trait of a high performance team is psychological safety. When people feel safe, they will go that extra mile, they will push through that wall, they will make a decision, even if they feel a little unsure, because they know that you've got their back.

So true. And, you know, when you talk about Gravitas, and how to develop Gravitas, and a lot of what we talked about is having that confidence. If someone doesn't have your back, you won't develop that confidence. So they're really tied together.

Yeah. I see, I have some clients right now that are moving, making that switch from manager to leader, right. And this idea that there's a mold that you're supposed to be a tough boss, right, they're supposed to be in charge in control, you're supposed to know what's going on with the tasks and drive achievement, right. And that if somebody makes a mistake, you know, you're supposed to, you know, tell them that they made a mistake, and deal with that, and hold them accountable. As a leader, it's a switch, and we talk a lot these days about servant leadership, but it really is more about, you said it earlier, listening. It's about understanding, it's about connecting with a human being, very few people come to work to do a shitty job, right? Most people come to work, they want to do the right thing, either they didn't understand what it was it was supposed to do, the manager didn't support them, they didn't have the tools or the skill set. I think that's what it is.

100% agree. And, you know, I mentioned books, there's a book I read, I don't know, 12 years ago or so, maybe longer. And it's called First Break all the Rules. And it talks about the subtitle, what the world's greatest managers do differently. And there's a nugget that I took out of that I carry with me, along the ways of developing people, and that nugget is that most managers spend time trying to fix their low performers. And you really ought to do the opposite, you really ought to be spending time with your high performers. And the quote that I love from that book, I might get a little bit wrong, but the gist of it is, you know, don't try to put in what's been left out. Your real challenge is try to draw out what's been left in. And I think if you can approach development and feedback in that way that really creates your high performing teams and your high performing people.

Yeah, well said, I love that. It really is. It's about finding strengths and building on strengths.

Yes. But it also is about understanding, you know that someone's greatest strength, if they use it, if they overuse it, it can become a weakness. So making sure people know that as well and that you know it in yourself.

How do you develop people now, at this point in your career, and as a senior leader as a CPO in a large organization? How big is GE Healthcare these days?

Oh, gosh, enormous. We are about 19 billion in sales. So thousands of employees around the globe, it's a very big global organization too and so I think when you think of that, how do you develop people globally is very different than how do you develop people just in your own region? Yeah, that's something that is difficult when you're not in the same timezone. And also, when cultures are different, so I think you've got to develop people in the context of the culture they're in, but also help them develop globally, and to know that they have to change their approach sometimes. And that's okay. And that's how you're effective. The other thing with developing people, the first question you should ask is, what's their own self assessment of where they think their gaps are? Right? It's easy to come in guns blazing, and say, here's where I think your gaps are, what do they think? And where do they want to go? So that's really the first step is understanding that. And then you can together put together a plan of how they want to learn and grow. The other thing that I see a lot of companies do is they'll do great job of training, but not as much job and maybe some bubble assignments here or there. But you've got to develop people every day. It's not a bubble assignment. It's not a take this role for a few months. That's important. That can be very important. But truly, how do you carve out a piece of your day to work on something unrelated to your current job, and kind of do that continuously? That's always my advice for people on how to develop, okay, you're interested in program management, go find a really good program manager and ask if you can take on a little bit of a piece of it, and learn and shadow. So I think that's for me important in developing.

Wow, that might indicate to me that you don't like to work in strict silos?

No. That stifles me, Jan, I can't, I like to think of myself as a silo buster, for sure. I think most people don't like to work in silos, but we come we become accustomed to it. And you grow according to your surroundings. So you've got to, you've got to make your surroundings big. And when you do that, you'll grow into them. And that's a key part of development.

Yeah, well said, Well said, Let's switch and talk about the personal side of Carrie Uhl. And let's start off with this idea of, you know, work life balance, which is a bit of a myth, because there's, there are choices that we make in life. And it's different for everybody. Now, you are a chief procurement officer in a large organization, you are a wife, you are a mother, you are also a major contributor to several other organizations, such as the supply chain board at Wayne State, and I think several others. How on earth do you manage all of that?

I think the comment you made about work life balance being a myth, first of all, you have to acknowledge that. Stop striving to strive for it, because it's work life integration, not balance. And there are going to be times where you switch from one to the other, and you've got to make that okay. So that's the first thing. I have a lot of energy, you know, and I'm passionate, and I try to only get involved in things that I am passionate about. But the other thing I think, is just being very intentional. The same way I'm intentional about scheduling time for strategy and really thinking, I scheduled time for my family, I scheduled time to be in some of those volunteer organizations. Last, it was about two weeks ago, my son's playing baseball, he's 10. So he's playing Little League. I'm so glad they can have a season this year, because it was in question with COVID, right, so that's great. And I knew I didn't want to miss any of his games. But I also knew I'd have a lot of pressure to miss those games, because they start at 5:30 or 6:00, and I work with a lot of people that are still on central time. And you know, we're working till 7:00 or 8:00 Eastern. So on a whim, I said, I'm going to sign up to be the assistant coach. So now I'm the assistant coach of the baseball team, because sometimes you just have to make a commitment. And once that commitments made, you will find a way. And I think that's true of anything with work life integration, you make commitments to the things that are most important. And you schedule everything else around it. That's how you do it. That's how I do it.

Yeah, I agree. You're right, you need to be intentional. And I found that, I found that when I was in the corporate world, there were sometimes decisions that I would make that day that were in favor of my corporate job. And sometimes there were decisions that day that were made in favor of the family. And what you can't do is to tear yourself apart thinking that you've got to be in both places at the same time. There are decisions that you make based on your value system. Sometimes it favors one area of your life more than the other. But that's it, you make a decision and you live with that decision, and you move on.

You do. And I think the other thing, I try to be very vocal about times when I choose family over work, because I used to hide it. You asked how my leadership style changed earlier. I'd say earlier in my career, if I wanted to go see a play ,my daughter's play, you know, and it was at 4:30. I mutter something about having an appointment. Now I'm proud about it, I'm going to see my daughter's play. And as a leader, particularly, I think it's so important to do that, because it gives your team not just permission, but encouragement to find their own work life integration. So I think a big part of a leader is you have to model what you preach.

Yeah, well, well said. And I remember those days to carry it early on when Gwen was a baby, and she's 18 now. And if she was sick, and I was going to stay home with her that day, I would never say I was staying home with a sick kid. Never. Because people would think you were weak, and then it would reinforce the stereotype. See, I told you we should never put her in that role, because she's going to take time off to be home with the kid all the time. And you knew that comment was coming. So it's much easier to say, yeah, you know, I'm sorry, I'm sick, I'm sick today or there's an appointment or something, which is terrible. But the one thing I gotta say is that in my last few years in the corporate world, what I saw in the men, I was very proud of the younger men on my team. They would say, they will come to me and say it's my turn to watch the kids because we have a sick child at home. And they were taking it in turns. So it was the wife's turn, you know, because she had a job as well, one time and then it was his turn. And he had no problem coming to me and saying that. Another one had no problem coming to me telling me that they needed time off to go to their kids soccer game, which I applaud them, not only the women and having the strength to come forward and own the fact that they are mothers and talk about that. But the young men also really embracing their responsibilities as fathers and recognizing they're not just in a position in a corporation, they are fathers and husbands as well.

I see the same thing. I have someone that's on three weeks of paternity leave right now and I couldn't be happier. It's, you know, we're not mothers or father, we're parents, and we're children. And you think about, there's a lot of elder care that our generation and the next generation needs to do, this is something that needs to be not just okay, but encouraged. Because, talk about bringing your best self to work. You can't bring your best self to work when you're worried about all those things.

Yeah. Well said Well said. So how do you start your day, then what is your beginning of your day look like?

Well, I'd love to tell you that I'm one of those people that wakes up early and gets on their treadmill, or does any of those super motivating morning things. I am absolutely not a morning person. I'm a night owl to my core, I am at my most creative, I can't go to bed till one o'clock. It's just in my DNA. So for me waking up looks like hitting snooze a couple of times, dragging myself to the shower. And I find five minutes before I get on the computer to play Candy Crush, my favorite online game. Because it gives me a little, I know, it's silly, but five minutes of Candy Crush till I lose my five lives. It's just a routine. It's part of my routine. And occasionally you clear a level and you know you've accomplished something for the day at least. That's my morning routine.

That is so don't what I was expecting. But you know what? You say it's sort of a mindless activity. It's kind of a warm-up. But you're doing the most important thing, which is your you're making a commitment. You know, you're doing something, right, even though it's a bit mindless than expected. But you're doing something and it's part of a morning routine. You're programming your mind for achievement.

Yeah, that's why what it is, I mean, I get so excited when I clear a level before I come downstairs and, look, I don't drink coffee. I'm not a coffee drinker, I don't need that coffee, I need my Candy Crush.

I'm so gonna make that into a quote for social media, as well. It's gonna be the Carrie Uhl picture with “I need my Candy Crush”. But that is funny, you know, but everybody's different. And that's what I love about leadership right now. Right? It's about celebrating those differences. It's not about one mold. You know, it's not about, this is the way you're supposed to start your day, you know, and this is the mold that you're supposed to be when you're a leader. It's about recognizing and celebrating differences. And some people are morning people, some people are night owls. And it's all okay.

And I think if you try to do it a different way, you try to fight your own circadian rhythm, you know, you're not productive, and there already aren't enough hours in the day to get done what we all need to do. If you try to work on a task, if I tried to work on a, I needed super clear focus in the morning, forget it, right? I'm just wasting time. That's when I need to talk to people. That's when I need my staff meeting. That's when I need, because I'm an extrovert, I need the energy and the motivation of others. So I try to do those things in the morning. If I've got to work on a presentation or a spreadsheet or something that requires a lot of thinking, I do it at 10 o'clock at night. That's just because I know that I'll get it done in half the time because I'm working with the way my body and brain work. And I think that's important in how to balance things and be productive.

Yes. And great leaders know that, they know their rhythm. They know how to work to their rhythm. And they also know to understand that and respect that in others. And I think we're seeing that coming out of COVID and the pandemic now as people start to plot a path back to the workplace maybe, or maybe a hybrid model, that it's this idea that it's not a cookie cutter approach anymore. It's not all in the office or all at home. It's recognizing what works for different people embracing that and not being afraid to set up a company or team that works that way.

I agree. And I, it's gonna be really interesting, I think, to see some of the studies and the statistics and the analysis come out on productivity levels of the last year. I know there's probably a lot of companies consulting firms working on that right now. But I'll tell you, everyone I talked to has said they're just wildly more productive. Wildly more. And so how do we harness that, while also getting back to some degree of you know, you need human interaction face to face as well?

Yeah, yeah. There's a hybrid model in there for sure. So tell me, what advice would you give your 25 year old self in today's environment? If you were looking at 25 year old Carrie Uhl what would you tell her?

Well, first of all, what you wouldn't give to go back to 25 again, right? What a great time in life, you know, what a great time. I think, I wouldn't change a lot of the way that I was. But I think I'd give myself a little bit more reassurance. And I would say, you know, make sure you're, first of all, listen more than you talk. Listen more than you talk, I like to talk. And I would have told myself to listen more. I think, you know, I had the real fortunate advantage of being able to travel the world at that age. And that's so pivotal, and not everyone's got that opportunity. But I would say even if you can't physically travel to a lot of places, find a way to experience them. Right, find a way through seeking out those in other cultures and other regions and learning from them. Because learning from everyone you can you've got to have a diverse circle. So I would encourage myself to do that, really. And then, you know, don't worry about the how. Life has a way of working out. Just focus on what you want. And the How will work itself out.

Yeah, as I look back in my early 20s, I came to this country, you know, and worried about a lot of things. I think I would just say it's all gonna, it's all gonna be okay. It's all gonna be all right.

It will, though, like the positivity, right, it's gonna work out. I don't know how I just know that it will.

Yeah, when I left my corporate job and started this business, every once in a while, I have to remind myself and say, it's all going to be okay. As you look to the end of your career, which certainly is no time in the future, you've got a long way to go yet. But what do you see is your legacy?

Oh, I think for what I'd like to be known for Jan, is somebody that was always a collaborator, that really wanted the best outcome, and knew that she needed a strong army around her, whether that's co workers, whether that's friends, family, but somebody who was a collaborator. I'd like to be known as somebody who inspired the next generation of women, as so many have done for us, right? To set an example for my own children of how they can have work life integration. And, you know, at the end of the day, I'd really like to hope to be a mentor to someone like Joe was for me, somebody that you quote 25 years later, that's what I'd like to be known for.

Oh, that's it right there. Yes. Somebody that you quote 25 years later. I love that. Well, it has been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. Carry Uhl, thank you.

Thank you. time flew. I could talk for hours. Thank you for the honor of sharing a microphone with you.