Upcoming Trends in AEC with Gregory Hart

Episode 82 • 19th April 2023 • Construction Disruption • Isaiah Industries

Intro/Outro:

Welcome to the Construction Disruption podcast, where we uncover the future of design, building and remodeling.

Todd Miller:

Welcome to the Construction Disruption podcast, where we uncover the future of building and remodeling by interviewing some of the top movers and shakers and disruptors who are impacting our great industry. I'm Todd Miller of Isaiah Industries, a manufacturer of specialty metal roofing and other building materials. Today, my co-host is Ryan Bell. Now, before we get started, though, I want to remind everyone that the Metal Roofing Summit is coming up April 25th through 27th in convenient Dayton, Ohio. I keeps saying convenient, Dayton, Ohio, because it is a very convenient airport. But this is a annual conference that is held at the beautiful University of Dayton Marriott. We've got some great speakers lined up like Frank Farmer and Megan Beattie and David Yoho, but just a great time. If you are in the home improvement or roofing space, this is a great opportunity to hear from some great speakers and also to connect and rub elbows, as they say, with some other great leaders from our industry. So check it out at metalroofingsummit.com. Hope you will join us. So we're going to start something a little different in this show that I think we might do on an ongoing basis, at least when we have something to share and talk a little bit about maybe some products or services that we have found in our lives that are fairly new and we've found them to be game changers, found them to be disruptive, as we say. And so I want to start out today by talking about one that I had shared with Ryan. So my wife, she and I mean, here we are late fifties. We always struggle with what to get each other for birthdays and things. So sometimes we just literally go to Amazon and buy what seems hot or what other people are buying. And so one of the things she bought me for my birthday last year was this little thing called Peeps. And no, it's not the marshmallow candy that's about to come out here at Easter time, but Peeps are eyeglass cleaners and really revolutionary. I think they were on Shark Tank, if I'm not mistaken. But anyway, it looks like a pair of plastic tweezers. And you take and you put them over your eyeglasses and rub them back and forth. And I have to tell you, these things were a game changer for me. I don't know how they do what they do, but they not only make your eyeglasses incredibly clean, I even find that my eyeglasses stay cleaner longer. It's almost like they become sort of, you have this surface that repels dirt. So I got a pair of these for someone else for his birthday, and he was pretty smitten by them also. And the other day I was telling Ryan about them a few weeks ago. So Ryan, what has your experience been with Peeps.

Ryan Bell:

: 00:03:15

Um, game changing for sure. I am OCD when it comes to having stuff on my glasses and it drives me nuts and...

Todd Miller:

: 00:03:23

Oh Ryan, you're OCD about more than that, but I'll let you get by with the glasses.

Ryan Bell:

: 00:03:26

Yes, you're right. The glasses is just one thing, but it's a constant battle. And, you know, my wife wears glasses, too, and we have those cleaning cloths all over our house and they never quite do the job. Now, you know, I probably clean my glasses. I oh, gosh, who knows how many times a day and drives me nuts. But when you told me about these, I was like, I'm getting some right away. And finally had them in my Amazon cart for a few week or a week maybe before I or actually ordered them. But they came in last week or was it earlier this week maybe? I don't remember. But they've been game changers for sure. I'm baffled by them too. I don't know how they work, but pretty incredible.

Todd Miller:

: 00:04:07

Do you find the same thing, though, that, you know, they not only do a great job of cleaning your glasses and you see better than you've ever seen. Do you also find that your eyeglasses stay cleaner longer?

Ryan Bell:

: 00:04:18

Somewhat.

Todd Miller:

: 00:04:19

Yeah.

Ryan Bell:

: 00:04:20

Yeah, I, I get a lot of we have we have kind of a big puppy and she is the one that gets my glasses dirty with her wet nose hitting me in the face. But so I don't know that I can, I can attest to how long they keep my glasses clean, but they work wonders. And we should probably mention too, this is not like a paid sponsorship or anything. It's just a been a life changing product. If you're someone that wears glasses, it's well worth it.

Todd Miller:

: 00:04:48

Yep, Peeps, P-E-E-P-S. They're on Amazon for what, 30 bucks? Something like that?

Ryan Bell:

: 00:04:54

Yep.

Todd Miller:

: 00:04:55

They're not inexpensive, but they're not. They're not going to break the bank too bad either. But now what I found too, is, you know, I used to have to, I would typically just clean my glasses once a day, but now sometimes I'll find, oh, I forgot to do them today. And they're really not that bad yet. So pretty weird. Okay, on with the show, as they say. So today's guest here on Construction Disruption is Greg Hart. Greg is president of the Boston-based PSMJ Resources. Now, PSMJ is a firm dedicated to improving the business performance of architecture, engineering and construction organizations worldwide. Greg has been with PSMJ for about 12 years, but before that he also worked primarily on making businesses better. Now, he recently stepped into the lead role at PSMJ, following in the footsteps of company founder Frank Straczynski. Greg has his bachelor's degree in Environmental Science from the University of Massachusetts and an MBA in Operations Management from Syracuse University. Greg, welcome to Construction Disruption. Appreciate you joining us today.

Gregory Hart:

: 00:06:07

Thanks, Todd. Glad to be here. I am actively looking up Peeps as we speak.

Todd Miller:

: 00:06:14

Well, you don't have eyeglasses on.

Gregory Hart:

: 00:06:16

Well, my wife's birthday is coming up soon, so there you go.

Todd Miller:

: 00:06:21

They are a game changer and I don't have a clue how they do what they do. I guess I don't really care, but they work exceptionally well. So it's interesting, I appreciate having you on the show today. I have known PSMJ, of course, for a number of years because your organization co-owns and manages the MetalCon trade show, co-owning it along with Metal Construction Association, which I've been on the board of and involved with for many, many years. But I know that realistically that trade show, of course, is a very, very small part of what PSMJ does. And when I when I look at PSMJ and think about you guys, though, I often think about another business that also has initials only, BASF. You guys maybe don't necessarily make anything, but you make things better for the entire industry. So can you kind of give us a quick overview of what PSMJ does?

Gregory Hart:

: 00:07:18

Yeah, absolutely. And you're right, over the years, we've added so many different facets of the business that it can be hard to kind of keep it all straight. But it's funny, it didn't come out of any real initial overall strategy to become who we are today. We just kind of followed our customers and it got us to do all the stuff we do. So I think the first thing I should probably mention, which almost nobody knows, is that PSMJ actually stands for Professional Services Management Journal, which was the initial product. And as Todd kind of alluded to, we focus on the entire architecture, engineering and, you know, heavier on the construction side. A lot of what we do in our publications and our research, so annual salary surveys and financial performance surveys and all sorts of best practice stuff also involves architects and engineers that stemmed out of that Professional Services Management Journal, which is a newsletter product that still exists today. Fast forward over the years, we got into training and project management training and business development training and then to beyond that into advisory services and consulting. You know, if you had to paint it with one big broad brush, it would be that everything we do is focused on improving the business performance of architecture, engineering and construction organizations. We don't get much into the design technical stuff. It's much more focused on the business performance side of AEC.

Todd Miller:

: 00:08:57

Very interesting. And I know that you guys also run conferences and educational times for folks from AEC, correct?

Gregory Hart:

: 00:09:05

That's righ, yeah. We have several conferences. Our annual AEC Thrive conference attracts about 300 CEOs, CFO, CMO, CEOs of architecture, engineering, construction organizations. We have a talent acquisition conference. We have a mergers and acquisitions conference. So that is one part of the business in that events and education bucket that brings people together, sharing best practices, sharing what's working, sharing what's not, making connections, networking, connecting with peers, all that sort of stuff. The conferences are a great part of the business. As you've seen with MetalCon, there's nothing like that in-person experience of getting people together and energized about trends and the future and what works and what doesn't. It's an exciting part of the business for sure.

Todd Miller:

: 00:09:57

Well, I know one of the first times I was ever up at your office was a few years ago. Yeah, it quickly dawned on me, Okay, there's a lot more about PSMJ than just what I knew with MetalCon. But, you know, one of the things that was always struck me with your organization and this has to be from Frank's leadership, is just the quality of team members that you have there. And the quality of people I've worked with at PSMJ have just always been off the charts I've felt. So I'm kind of curious what motivates you and what makes you want to work for PSMJ?

Gregory Hart:

: 00:10:31

Yeah, it really is that, you know, we have built a fantastic team and we really do hire for talent and energy and skill, and we hire for open positions. When we meet somebody who's got a lot of fantastic energy, we find a home for them somewhere in that Swiss Army knife that I explained of all the different things that we do. So that really is a big part of it, because once we have that great team, the ability we have to really impact these organizations from the smallest of architecture firms to the biggest, to multidisciplinary kind of AEC organizations, it really is a lot of fun seeing the impact we have on their success, their growth and their financial performance. And our team gets a buzz off of that too. And when we have an impact on the organization, on the industry, we really thrive on that. And even though we've been around for so long, we're still a very entrepreneurial, nimble and kind of team-focused company. Like you said, even just a few years ago, we still really, really, really try not to get complacent and sleepy and bureaucratic and all those things you expect with companies that have been around for a long time. For sure. I think sometimes I feel like we still have that 'we're gonna get out of the spare bedroom' mentality, even though we've been around for nearly 50 years.

Todd Miller:

: 00:11:52

Yeah, it's interesting that you use that word bureaucratic. And I have to admit, I, okay, I'm going to I'm going to probably show a pet peeve. But, you know, as I work with so many companies, mainly suppliers on my end of things, who, you know, have been taken over by investment groups and different funds and things. And, you know, one of the things I find is their organizations just become so bureaucratic that they do lose sight of the customer. And so there's something different when you've got a closely held or privately owned organization that doesn't necessarily have all those hoops that everyone has to jump through. And you can focus on the customer instead. Is that kind of what you find? I mean, do you think that that's also a good hallmark for anyone in the AEC world?

Gregory Hart:

: 00:12:39

It really is. You know, and that's a comment I hear quite a bit when I talk to the customers, the consumers of architecture, engineering, construction services about the firms that they're using, that as they grow, they become much more inwardly focused. They ain't what they used to be. Change orders, all that kind of stuff becomes much more complicated as as organizations grow. And absolutely, you know, that's a real, real Achilles heel, especially with the consolidation that's happening in the industry. We often ask the question, how big is too big? You know, is there a cap when you just can't get any bigger because you've sort of lost the ability to actually be a true architecture, engineering, and construction organization, so. Being entrepreneurial, and there's all sorts of kind of cliches around that growing big by staying small, that kind of thing really is key. If you can grow to be a mega company and still have a soul, you're doing something right.

Todd Miller:

: 00:13:45

I like that. So would you say that M&A activity is one of the major things that sort of impacting the AEC industry right now? Or are there other things also having big impacts?

Gregory Hart:

: 00:13:57

Yeah, consolidation probably is one of the biggest, you know, and that's it's not driven just by that. Look, we're we're in a boom/bust industry. There are boom periods, there are bust periods and there's a little bit of that. But the bigger picture and this isn't exclusive to AEC, this is pretty much the entire economy, is this bubble of retiring baby boomers that we've seen coming for years. You know, that they started these organizations and built these organizations. And the problem you've got is there's just these companies end up with almost like an hourglass org chart by virtue of the fact that there just are a lot fewer Gen Xers than there are baby boomers or millennials. So it's putting a lot of strain on that traditional internal ownership transition model, and it's leading to consolidation. That's not the only reason there's consolidation. Obviously, there's tech, there's innovation, there's client pressures as well. But I would say if you have to draw one trend that's kind of big right now and going to stay big for a while, it's consolidation. We, you mentioned Frank at the outset, Frank wrote a book in 2009 where he made a kind of prediction of what he called the death of the mid-sized firm. And he was talking specifically about in the architecture and engineering space, you either have to be a small, nimble, low overhead niche provider or a big multidisciplinary, multi-service, resource-rich powerhouse. And if you get stuck in the middle, you have neither. You have the worst of both worlds. And that's that's definitely playing out. And some of that consolidation is a lot of the big, big guys gobbling up those those mid-sized companies that have unfortunately gotten themselves into a little bit of a corner.

Todd Miller:

: 00:15:49

Well, you touched on a couple of interesting things there. You talked about that hourglass shape of the workforce that's out there. Never thought about that before, but you're absolutely spot on. We we still have a pretty big group of baby boomers still hanging on up there at the top and then they're in the middle you don't have a whole lot. And then you've got your millennials that are a pretty big group at the bottom and very, very interesting. But so you talked about that and you talked about some other things that are creating challenges. Anything else that you're seeing really creating challenges today for AEC firms?

Gregory Hart:

: 00:16:29

Well, the closely related cousin to that issue of consolidation is a it's an issue of recruiting, of finding people to do the work. And, you know, there's definitely again, because of that hourglass org chart, just fewer graduates that graduated 10 or 15 years ago into the industry, into the, especially into the engineering and especially into the building systems engineering, mechanical electrical plumbing, things like that. So, you know, but this industry has always had issues with finding enough people to do the work. And that kind of, I think, plays into the tech, the opportunities with the tech issue a little bit. But that's you know, there's a whole bunch of different reasons that's the case. Obviously, we lost, especially in the architecture engineering side, lost some talent. Whenever there's a recession, there's a flight from the industry a little bit and in some cases we lost them to the clients, right? We lost them to real estate developers and owners and things like that. But at any rate, I mean, there is always going to be a recruiting issue, but there's some solutions to that that. We're starting to see the more forward-thinking firms embrace. But yeah, I'd say that's, that's another factor that's, that's bringing that consolidation for sure. I've never, this is the in the past two or three years it's the been the first time I've ever seen at the level I'm seeing buyers buying companies just to get the talent. They used to be the old saw that if I'm acquiring a company just to get the talent because I have more work than we have people do the work, well, any firm worth buying is going to have the same problem. So I don't want to buy a company with just those people sitting around with nothing to do, because there's probably a deeper issue than that, that issue's been thrown out the window. Companies are clamoring to find somebody with people sitting around with nothing to do because they they would argue organic growth is just getting harder and harder and harder.

Todd Miller:

: 00:18:29

Well, you mentioned that there are some folks finding unique solutions to the work force. Is acquisition one of those or what are some of the other things you're seeing folks doing out there?

Gregory Hart:

: 00:18:42

Yeah, you know, as an incremental solution, acquisition is one for that reason that I just mentioned. But I think when you look at it as a bigger, bigger opportunity, that's where you are starting to see technology. And I play a role, you know, especially on the architecture and engineering side. It was never a very scalable business. If you wanted to double the revenue, you had to double the number of architects or engineers you had, and they're starting to break away from that. I'm starting to hear conversations now that if we're a 5000 person engineering firm, engineering construction firm right now, doubling in size doesn't mean we need to be a 10,000 person firm. And where that's coming in is companies are starting to use AI and machine learning to do some of the more repetitive, the less safe, the more ripe for human error tasks. And the conversation is starting finally, in some ways shifting from who will do the work to what will do the work. And that has really picked up in the past 12 or 24 months.

Todd Miller:

: 00:19:48

Well, I definitely want to come back to that AI and machine learning and the impact that you're seeing there and think is going to be there in the future. But one thing I want to touch back on a little bit, So a while back I started following the guys at John Burns Real Estate Consulting quite a bit because they just have some amazing information as far as projecting what's going to be happening in terms of, you know, what types of buildings are we going to be building over the next five years or ten years? And we had Eric Finnegan from that organization on the show a while back, and that was really interesting. But, you know, one of the things that gets touched on a lot from our guests is the lack of affordable and livable housing. And, you know, it seems like that's something that's definitely going to be driving AEC going forward. But what do you see as some of the big opportunities? I mean, what what are the things that firms now should be thinking, okay, we need to position ourselves to be stronger in this niche, you know, in the future? What are some of those areas?

Gregory Hart:

: 00:20:56

Right now, it's 100% infrastructure. Anything government infrastructure is just on fire. And specifically, you know, transportation, water, wastewater, things like that, that obviously there's a ton I mean, unprecedented levels of government investment and stimulus in that and coming from a few different places. And that's going to come out over many, many years, right. So, I mean, there's a, we're woefully behind on a lot of infrastructure work, and that faucet is starting to open up and will continue to open up for the next decade plus. I don't disagree with the affordable housing piece. I think that's absolutely true that this, when we're talking specifically about the US economy, has been kind of under-housed for many years and we have an affordability crisis that's only getting more exacerbated as time goes by. But the interesting thing we're starting to see in the market data that we track specifically on kind of upstream proposal activity data. So now we're talking, okay, work that's going into construction over the next 12, 24, 36 months, it is all infrastructure. Of course, the the client markets that are highly dependent on speculative work, which is being hit kind of hard by that that interest rate wrecking ball that the Fed keeps swinging are cooling rapidly. What we're seeing is projects that are going into initial design and then stop and pause because of the uncertain economic environment we're seeing there. And affordable housing is tricky because there's a lot of different moving parts to make those projects work. But government infrastructure for firms that can pivot into it, you know, for for companies that have an ability to to make opportunities there, it is just so hot that I think the only bottleneck is going to be the ability of AEC organizations to do the work. I think that's going to be the only constraint. And I mean that largely getting back to the talent issue that we talked about. If we look around the industry, particularly on the design side, on the architectural engineering side, that they're already maxed out with the work they've got, then it's going to be hard to push those projects through the system as fast as maybe the government and others would like to see it. But yeah, infrastructure has a lot of opportunity for sure.

Todd Miller:

: 00:23:25

Are there any, what I want to say, geographic, I mean, particular areas of the country where the infrastructure seems to be really going to be the hot thing? I mean, has it the coasts first and going to go more inland or do you have any ideas on that?

Gregory Hart:

: 00:23:42

Yeah, so that's where it does depend on a few different factors. Obviously, the really population-dense areas are seeing the most opportunity for that. Some of this plays into the state political environments as well. That is, some are going to be, you know, have more opportunity to access than others. But absolutely, you know, airports, highways, those major infrastructure areas, I mean, there are some, you know, rural Internet and things like that. But I think the real big megaprojects that you're going to see are in the mega cities, the large-scale urban areas. There's still you know, you look at any of those real estate trend kind of charts and you see the net migration towards kind of the Sun Belt area and places like that. And that will continue to be the case, I think. But nobody is immune from some of the investment that's going to happen here, that it's going to happen across the board, even in the smallest municipalities with some of the water, wastewater, cybersecurity, and things like that. So it's going to be everywhere. But certainly the major metro areas are going to see the brunt there, the bulk of it.

Todd Miller:

: 00:24:55

Sure, that makes sense. So you work with a lot of different firms and familiar with a lot of different firms across the country. Just kind of curious as you look at sort of big picture, what really sets apart the top performing, the high performance AEC firms versus the so-so ones?

Gregory Hart:

: 00:25:15

You know, it's funny, especially on the professional services side of architecture and engineering, there's always been this what I would call a commoditization pressure. In fact, there have been so many cases where the realtor who sells the building ends up making more money than the architect who designed it. And that's nobody's fault but the architect. You know that, but not the architect, individually. It's more the architecture as a profession. And that ties back to really selling the value and not just the time. I think architects and engineers especially have always, have been unable to convey and sell and articulate the value that they bring to a project. So one of the things that I noticed time and time again is that the firms that are really and this is across you, this is wherever you look, the companies that are really able to sell and deliver value versus input plus a profit are going to always outperform the ones who are just selling time or materials or time and materials or whatever the case may be. That has to be the one big thing that's consistent time and time again. But also too, that means that they're getting into markets that that allow them to command that value. Look what I just spent a few minutes talking about, how great the infrastructure space is for the opportunity. It's also one of the hardest places to convey that to sell on value versus time and materials. In fact, there's straight-up regulations to prevent some of that. So you got to look at what markets you're in. If you're in some of those permitting, and we have plenty of companies we look at that are working on the land development side. When that market's hot, time is money. And the faster you can move and the easier you make it, the higher value you bring in, the more fees you'll be able to command. So and that starts with not just selling architecture, engineering, construction, that starts with selling the solution. The value that you're delivering has to be the number one every single time.

Todd Miller:

: 00:27:21

Makes a lot of sense. There's an architect on the West Coast guy by the name of Evan Troxel, and Evan was one of our early guests here on the show, actually, and he was kind of ranting. I'll use that word loosely, on LinkedIn the other day, just about, you know, how many architects just kind of play it safe and just kind of look at themselves as well I've got a job here and time and material and, you know, and so they're not really pushing the envelope. And he was encouraging everyone to be a little bit more forward-thinking in terms of pushing the envelope, bringing more value. And I commented to him, I said, Yeah, it's almost like we all just want to be on the the humdrum pathway to mediocrity. So they use that line more in the future. I don't know.

Gregory Hart:

: 00:28:09

Yeah. You know, whenever we ask the question when I'm speaking at a conference or something like that, how many folks have raised their fees in the past 12 months and you get a show of hands and there's usually a pretty good show of hands. And you ask, okay, how many regret doing that and almost never get a hand up.

Todd Miller:

: 00:28:25

No one, yeah.

Gregory Hart:

: 00:28:26

And, you know, I think that there's a lot more opportunity. And in fact, it's a lot more opportunity to get involved in more strategic projects and ditch some of those, that work that is this kind of lower margin, higher maintenance, all that kind of stuff. So for sure, that's a chronic issue in the industry.

Todd Miller:

: 00:28:44

Good stuff. Well, good reminders for all of us, I think. So. Whenever you look at any industry, you know, the movers and shakers, the ones disrupting, the ones pushing ahead or are always the ones you remember for the most part, sometimes for good reason, sometimes for bad reasons. But we always remember them. So what do you see as some of the major disruptors in the AEC field right now?

Gregory Hart:

: 00:29:09

Yeah, you know, it's it's funny, just like with that bubble of retiring baby boomers, which we've been predicting, not even predicting, we just did math and you see it coming. Tech and A.I., you know, we've been talking about for the past ten years or so that there will come a point where we no longer need architects, you know, we no longer need engineers, you know, and and I don't think we ever get to that point in our lifetimes. But quickly, as we've all seen with ChatGPT and all that kind of stuff in the past few months, the ability for companies to leverage tech is amazing and really can lead to higher profits and solve some of those issues. One good example, a company we spoke with that does a lot of municipal work and some of that work is scanning city roads for potholes and recognizing where road repairs are needed. Historically, it's been a very manual process where you have two or three people going around in a truck, human error all over the place here in terms of looking for potholes and then getting out to measure them and all sorts of subjectivity and mistakes that can happen there. Plus, it's just really labor intensive. And several firms are now moving into technology where it's simply a smartphone mounted on the dashboard of a truck that's scanning the road ahead and not only spotting the pothole deficiencies or the pavement issues, it's measuring them as well. So now you have not only fewer human resources required, but much faster, much more accurate than than was ever done before. And that gets back to this value piece. You know that in one of the discussions I had with a fellow at one of the big engineering construction firms just talking about how they're using machine learning for you, for other cases like that. And a question came in that if you're doing this stuff and it's only taking one engineer and they're doing it half the time. Then, are you? How are you making more money? It seems like now you're cutting your revenue. And his response was exactly what you and I just talked about, that you get to sell the value and not the time. And the reality is that every in a lot of these cases, especially on the private sector projects. Every day that this project is delayed, it's another $100,000, $500,000, and the client doesn't care how many hours it takes. They care how quickly they're going to get the solution. So in that case, they're actually able to command a higher value than than what they would have been able to do before. So it's kind of rethinking the business model. But we're just at that leading edge of it to, you know, even even two or three years from now, we're going to see a lot of evolution, which is going to introduce a lot of questions. I mean, like I said, it can, it can alleviate some of the human error piece. Does it stifle the creativity? What does it mean for liability? What does it mean for ethics? And all those other questions that we've got, we've got to unpack and figure out. But the organizations that embrace A.I. are. Here's the way I look at: A.I. isn't going to replace architects or engineers or constructors any time soon, but companies that are leveraging AI are going to replace the companies that aren't, you know, that are that are ignoring it or thinking it's only for the big companies and all that stuff.

Todd Miller:

: 00:32:55

Wise words. That's good stuff.

Gregory Hart:

: 00:32:58

Yeah, thanks.

Todd Miller:

: 00:32:58

Well, what about PSMJ? What do you think the future holds for you folks? Any exciting things coming up or things happening?

Gregory Hart:

: 00:33:06

Yeah. You know, it's funny. Like I said at the outset, one of the things that makes us really, really a fun place to work is we're always going to where our customers want us to go. And when we see some of this consolidation that's happening, that's what prompts us to develop a merger and acquisition conference or, you know, that that kind of stuff. So I think now more than ever, the industry is looking to us to help them navigate this change that's happening with consolidation and private equity and technology and AI and globalization. And obviously there are issues with material costs that are in on-shoring of production and manufacturing it. There's just a lot of change happening right now. So now more than ever, we're in a position through everything that we do, I think, to help companies find out what's working and what's not in that. And we will continue to, whether it's a conference or a best practice or a trade show or whatever it is, we're going to continue to kinda help wherever we can. We've never been ever about, you know, growing to a certain number or getting to a certain size. It's just as long as there's organizations out there that need our help, we'll continue to do what we do and go where they need us to go.

Todd Miller:

: 00:34:26

Well, I love that and it certainly serves you well, that idea of responding to the, you know, to where the industry's going and what your clients and your folks need. Good stuff.

Gregory Hart:

: 00:34:37

Yeah.

Todd Miller:

: 00:34:38

Well, we know that many of our audience members here at Construction Disruption are folks who are just kind of young, getting started out in their careers related to design or construction or engineering. Any advice you'd have to someone getting started in this industry that may help guide them to a successful career?

Gregory Hart:

: 00:34:59

The biggest thing is, I think, kind of across the board to be a bit of a sponge, you know, and get exposure to all different parts of the of the business and not just the design piece. I think that's one of the biggest frustrations I hear from C-level executives in looking for that next generation of owners and leaders is they feel like they don't have the financial, business development, you know, whatever the case is with non-technical skills. And to be sure, of course, you know, to some extent that fault lies on the key C-level executives to provide that kind of training. But also the individuals that seek out that sort of training and learning will outperform the others, you know. So any opportunity to learn about the business and the good thing is it's never been easier to learn about the business with podcasts like yours. And there's all sorts of blogs and social media accounts and YouTube videos, and there's never been more places you can go to learn about these sort of not even software skills, just the business skills of architecture, engineering, construction do that. You know, really, if you really want to have an opportunity to grow, you will always be more valuable than the individuals who don't have that skill set.

Todd Miller:

: 00:36:25

Love it. Well, this has been great. You know, we're here at a point where we're close to wrapping up what we call the business end of things. And this has been a real pleasure and a joy to have you. Is there anything we haven't covered yet that you'd like to share with our audience?

Gregory Hart:

: 00:36:41

You know, I don't think so. I think that one other thing that I would mention is because of the consolidation, we are seeing private equity really reshape the industry as well, which they really wouldn't touch this industry five or ten years ago. And in you know, there were really some horror stories where it went really, really bad and there was a lot of money lost. But there could come a time in the next five or ten or twenty years where the employee-owned firm is the exception rather than the norm, and there's much more private equity ownership that we have just never seen. It almost seems like every day I'm hearing an email or getting a call from a private equity firm I've never even heard of. They're just kind of popping up everywhere. So I think private equity and tech are two things you got to watch in this space because they will upend it potentially over the next even, I mean, I know five years doesn't sound like a long time, but I think a lot's going to happen in the next five years.

Todd Miller:

: 00:37:54

Speed of change keeps getting faster. And you're right, those are the thundering footsteps and you know, they are going to continue to be here and with us and are going to shape the future. And yeah, like any time you go through change, there's going to be a few aches and pains along the way and a little bit of grimacing. But I think ultimately it all just keeps advancing, hopefully to a better, better place. So that's good.

Gregory Hart:

: 00:38:18

I think so.

Todd Miller:

: 00:38:19

Well, this has been fantastic Greg, thank you. So I have to ask you, before we close out, if you're willing to participate in something we call our rapid fire questions. So these are seven questions, some may be silly, some may be serious. All you got to do is give a quick answer and our audience has to understand Greg has no idea what we're going to ask him.

Gregory Hart:

: 00:38:40

Alright, here we go.

Todd Miller:

: 00:38:41

Are you up to the challenge? Okay.

Gregory Hart:

: 00:38:43

Yeah.

Todd Miller:

: 00:38:44

Let's go. Well, Ryan and I will alternate. Ryan, you want to ask the first question?

Ryan Bell:

: 00:38:48

Sure. But before I do so, I have a transitional question that's kind of, that's not really a rapid fire question. But all this talk about architecture and you being in Boston, I have to ask, have you been to the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum there?

Gregory Hart:

: 00:39:03

You know, I haven't, but I really want to I did watch the Netflix documentary on the heist.

Ryan Bell:

: 00:39:10

Okay.

Gregory Hart:

: 00:39:11

I forget what the name of it was. But my wife and son went last year and I hear it's amazing, but I really would like to go there.

Ryan Bell:

: 00:39:18

Okay. So we just started the documentary last night and have only made it through one episode. But man, the architecture of that place, I'm like, I want to I want to go there. Even after just seeing one episode.

Gregory Hart:

: 00:39:29

Yeah, especially in the middle is that courtyard area that yeah, this from what I hear is, is beautiful. And even just seeing the spots where the paintings are missing and its...

Ryan Bell:

: 00:39:39

Yeah, yeah, it looks so bland from the outside and that's how it was designed. But yeah, completely incredible. And the documentary is called Watch This Robbery, The World's Biggest Art Heist on Netflix, if anybody wants to check it out. But sorry, I was just thinking about that the whole time you were talking. That's my contribution to this episode is I'm mentioning a big art theft. Alright, so, on to the rapid fire questions. If you find yourself in a zombie apocalypse, what one person do you want to be certain to have on your team?

Gregory Hart:

: 00:40:14

Oh, my God. One person, I think the one person I would want on my team. Whether you like him or not, would be Jeff Bezos, because it seems like he's got lots of money and lots of access to a lot of people. I think that's who I would choose.

Ryan Bell:

: 00:40:28

Solid choice there.

Todd Miller:

: 00:40:30

Question number two, What is your favorite pizza topping?

Gregory Hart:

: 00:40:35

My favorite pizza topping is meatball and onion. Toppings, I guess plural there. So if I had to choose one, I would choose the meatball, but you got to have the onion on there as well.

Todd Miller:

: 00:40:45

Good answer, okay.

Ryan Bell:

: 00:40:48

Question number three, What is a product you have bought or used recently that really changed or disrupted your life?

Gregory Hart:

: 00:40:56

You know, it's not related to work at all, but I think that's the best part about this is I bought a new pair of snowshoes. Living here in New England, these MSR lightning snowshoes have a little, a heel lift, as they're called. So it's a little metal bar that pops up on the back so when you're going up a mountain your foot isn't as inclined. These MSR Lightning snowshoes, which have just been a game changer this winter.

Ryan Bell:

: 00:41:22

Do you climb a lot of mountans?

Todd Miller:

: 00:41:24

Yeah, that's a good question. Do you climb a lot of mountains?

Gregory Hart:

: 00:41:29

S,. So here's the thing. When you live up here in New England, it's a long, long winter if you're not doing fun stuff. So we have the in the White Mountains of New Hampshire. So about 2 hours north of Boston, where I am, we have these the four there's 48 4,000-foot mountains. Which, 4,000 doesn't sound like that high compared to, say, Colorado with 14,000 footers. But certainly some of the world's worst weather, obviously, Mount Washington being one of the 4,000-footers. And it's just, it's an experience in the winter that is unlike anything else. You know, it's it in the right conditions with that bluebird sky and the fresh, white powdery snow. When you're up there and there's no wind there, just it's an amazing experience. So I've done 32, I think, of the 48 4000-footers. So my hope would be, I turned 48 September 10th this year. So I want to get all 48 done by September 10th of this year. So we'll see; the bar has been set.

Ryan Bell:

: 00:42:26

Good for you.

Todd Miller:

: 00:42:27

Very neat goal. Very good. Well, the next question. What would, now I don't think you just answered this, but what would you say is the most out of character thing you have ever done?

Gregory Hart:

: 00:42:39

The most out of character thing I've ever done was I've run one ultramarathon, and I'm not sure I'll ever run a second one. It was a 50k, 31 mile race in 20. It was actually November of 2019, right before we started, a few months before everything shut down. And it seems like obviously, because so much has changed outside of that, it seems like it was a world away. But I never, ever, ever would have thought myself ten years ago being able to do that. But it was fun and I don't even know if I have another one in me, but it was fun.

Ryan Bell:

: 00:43:16

What bucket list vacation do you have?

Gregory Hart:

: 00:43:19

Bucket list vacation, I think is probably one that we're doing in a few weeks or in about a month. Going to Barcelona. I've never been to Spain and we're going to go spend the week there in mid-April and it should be a lot of fun. It's funny, the only other time I've been in a country that doesn't speak English was when I went to France with my wife, but she lived there for a while, so she spoke French. She doesn't speak Spanish. I took Spanish in high school, so Hola, me llamo Gregorio, but that's about it. So that'll be, and actually Barcelona isn't, it's not really Spanish. They have another language they speak that's a slight variation of Spanish, so it'll be fun. It'll be really fun.

Todd Miller:

: 00:44:05

Fantastic. Well, I hope that goes wel,. That's good. Let's see, it's back to me, I think. Okay, what would you like to be remembered for?

Gregory Hart:

: 00:44:16

You know, the one thing I'd love to be remembered for is, is the impact that I've had on others here at PSMJ and obviously outside of business as well. Really and that's why I say earlier that, you know, we don't focus on topline revenue and we really focus on the team. I mean, nothing makes me feel better than when I hear folks who worked here years ago and have gone off to do other things and point back to some of the things they learned here as helping them so much in their career. And I really, really, really do enjoy, as I've advanced up in the organization, seeing stuff happening that I had nothing to do with and seeing folks kind of take ownership and run with things. It's funny, Frank always has this kind of tongue-in-cheek comment that he likes to be as lazy as he can and get other people to do all the work. And what he means by that is obviously build a team that's really motivated and empowered and and it is really gratifying, but not just inside the organization too. I mean, even the impact we've had outside, when I'm in an event and, you know, I get a hug from somebody that I helped ten years ago or something like that, that's what it's all about. It's certainly not about trying to be the biggest or the best or make all the money, but it's the impact we've had on the lives of those around you.

Todd Miller:

: 00:45:37

I love that. Good answer.

Ryan Bell:

: 00:45:40

Yes, great answer. Final question, if you could suddenly instantly gain one skill or talent, what would you choose?

Gregory Hart:

: 00:45:52

You know, I'm always jealous of people who can snap their fingers. I just can't even come close to doing it. I don't know what it is. I can whistle, I can do things. I can do that thing where you make your tongue into, like, a little circle. But I could never snap my fingers. And when every says, Oh, I could do it like that. But I'm like, I can't do the snap to make it. So that would, that would be a fun thing to learn how to do. Or I don't even know if you learn, I think is it one of those things, you either can do it or you can't, and that's it? I don't know.

Ryan Bell:

: 00:46:23

I, I don't know. But I almost phrased the question with the snap of a finger, what skill or talent would you choose? I wish I would have said that.

Gregory Hart:

: 00:46:32

Yes. I feel like it'd b,e I'd have so much more impact to speaking if I could just snap my finger. And I'm trying to make a point, but we'll see.

Todd Miller:

: 00:46:41

Well, Greg, thank you. This has been great. We have learned you are a man of many talents and interests and abilities, and yet you're still in search of that elusive finger snap. So this is good stuff. So for folks who want to get in touch with you or just a follow what PSMJ is up to what are some of the best ways for them to do that?

Gregory Hart:

: 00:47:04

You know, one of the best ways to do it is to find us on social media, largely Facebook and LinkedIn, as we are quite active with sharing some of our research. So if you just search PSMJ Resources on either of those or just go to PSMJ.com and you'll find their handles there. Or you could always email me, ghart, G-H-A-R-T, @psmj.com. We often like to comment that if people don't quite, especially when you're on the phone and you say PMSJ, not sure if it was P or B, Please Send Me Jelly. That's the, and maybe it doesn't stand for Professional Managment Services Journal. Anyway, psmj.com is the place to go.

Todd Miller:

: 00:47:47

Good stuff, Please Send Me Jelly. I'll never forget that.

Gregory Hart:

: 00:47:50

There you go.

Todd Miller:

: 00:47:52

Well, thank you everyone for tuning in to this episode of Construction Disruption with Greg Hart, President of Please Send Me Jelly Resources, PSMJ Resources. So please watch for future episodes of our podcast, we're always blessed with great guests. Don't forget to leave a review on Apple Podcasts or YouTube. Until the next time we're together, keep on disrupting, keep on changing things and forcing things forward. And don't forget to have a positive impact on everyone you encounter. Make them smile, encourage them; simple yet powerful things we can all do to change the world. So God bless and take care. This is Isaiah industries signing off until the next episode of Construction Destruction.

Todd Miller:

: 00:48:37

Intro/Outro: This podcast is produced by Isaiah Industries, a manufacturer of specialty metal roofing and other building products.

Share Episode

Shownotes

Transcripts

Chapters