Shownotes
In this episode of the Self Care Series, I’m excited to share my conversation with meditation teacher, Jude Star.
We are both entrepreneurs, psychotherapists, and adults with ADHD who practice meditation and mindfulness.
Many people with ADHD are confused or intimidated by meditation, have struggled to figure it out, or flat-out refuse to try, even though it can be incredibly helpful in managing our busy brains.
My hope is that this conversation will bust up some of the myths and misunderstandings, offer practical solutions, and show you how to make meditation and mindfulness fun.
Jude and I share and compare our personal journeys and the role that mindfulness and meditation play in each of our businesses and lives.
We discuss the critical role of experimentation in finding the meditation style that truly resonates with you and the power of adopting a playful “and that’s OK” approach which Jude reminds us fosters more consistent long-term motivation.
We debunk some common myths surrounding meditation, like the idea that you must adopt a particular posture, and practice dogmatically, and stress the importance of weaving mindfulness into routine activities, such as taking mindful walks.
We also tackle the misconceptions associated with meditation and ADHD, emphasizing the need for a joyful, light-hearted approach, and the remarkable brain chemistry changes that consistent meditation offers. I loved hearing Jude talk about introducing meditation to a client using what he calls the “Do Nothing” practice.
Connect with Jude Star:
Mentioned by Jude during our convo:
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Transcripts
H: So, Jude, I wanna start our conversation off by going directly to the myths and misunderstandings when it comes to mindfulness and meditation. I know that's a lot of M's, and we both have a lot of say on the topic.
G: Well, there's so many, I think one of the big ones is just that it's about concentration or that it's only about concentration, and I feel like the word concentration is very triggering for a lot of people, myself would be one of them. So, yeah, I have ADHD, and that just that word just does not sit well with me. It's very effortful right? It's like something like, oh, we gotta, like, try really hard and make our mind focus, and it's not that at all, it's actually the opposite. It's about more so about relaxation right? It's more so about letting things slow down and learning how to relax, learning how to slow down.
So I'd say, like, that's one of the big ones I'm sure there's countless more. Like that you have to be sitting in, a proper meditation posture is another one, which I think is one of the biggest, like, ones that is so challenging. Everyone's oh, my back hurts, my legs hurt. My hips hurt and it's like, no, just sit in a chair, even lie down. Like, there's so many comfortable ways. It really is about relaxation. And sure, if you're a long term kind of practitioner, you really wanna, you know, make a part of your life, sure, work on your meditation posture, work on your seated position. But I think, generally, you can meditate in whatever way is comfortable for you. So I think those are 2 big ones I see a lot of the time.
H: Some of the feedback that I get from people when I even mention the word, they're like, wait, wait, wait. Don't tell me about anymore about this. I have ADHD, I'm like, I know, you hired me. I can't do that because that means, like, sitting still, can't do that, and making my mind go blank. And I'm like, yo, the only time your mind is ever gonna be blank is when this life has come to an end so that that's not the goal here. I also think some people think it's like a gateway to trying to convert you to an eastern religion. Now it just so happens, and we'll share our personal stories a little bit later on. But I did eventually become Buddhist as a result of learning mindfulness and meditation practices. But there are people of all religions who meditate and practice trying to convert people.
G: Absolutely, I love Buddhism. I read Buddhist books still to this day, but I actually don't consider myself Buddhist, and, and my main teacher, Shinzen Young, also does not consider himself Buddhist. So it's you don't need that, I mean, it's awesome. I love Buddhism. It's informed so much of my perspective on life, on the world, on myself, on everything. But it's just ideas and even the Buddhist said, like, just don't take this stuff at face value. Try it out, see what works. If it doesn't work, then toss it out. So it's really not meant to be taken on faith. It's not meant to be dogmatic. It's meant to be, kind of like early scientific. Like, let's try things out and see what happens.
H: That was one of the first things that appealed to me was, like, wait a minute. The leader of Buddhism says, don't take my word for it, check it out for yourself. And I'm like, oh, I did not have that experience in other religions for sure. Another myth or misunderstanding, I think, is that if you don't do it every day, why bother? It's kind of like exercise a lot of people talk about. We've had a recent episode in the self care series on being much more forgiving and, going easier on yourself when it comes to movement, even calling it movement instead of exercise. Same thing with meditation, I'm curious if you think there's, like, a minimum amount either you know, does it have to be daily for is, like, a minimum amount of time or a minimum amount of times per week where you can not only get an immediate benefit, Jude, but also a lasting one where you're starting to teach your brain different ways of being that are maybe a little bit more relaxed, what do you think?
G: I mean, I love this question because it's actually maybe a little more complex in, like, a fun way, where so I go in and out of having a daily practice. I don't always have a daily practice and this is something maybe, you know, because I've been practicing over 20 years now, and I have not been practicing that entire 20 years. I can do that for sure but what I think really is most important is, well, one, that you're starting out, that there is some degree of consistency even if it's just 2 minutes a day, even if it's not every day, even if it's just 2, 3 times a week right? So there's some degree of consistency, whatever that looks like for you. And then the real game changer for me was that, learning the real kind of skills of it, learning how these things translate into our everyday lives, and then practicing throughout my day as I'm doing things.
So I go for walks every day and on these walks, I'm not like rigidly practicing mindfulness, but I'm very much practicing mindfulness. I'm really, attuning to my environment, attuning to my body, to the sensations present, noticing thoughts come and go, and, like, that's so enjoyable. It makes the walk more enjoyable because I'm more present. I'm more engaged in it, and, and it's very much a practice. It's very much a mindfulness practice, and I think when I started doing that more and more, finding the ways to bring this in, like, little, my teacher Shinzen Young, calls them micro hits where you're just in the day and you just take a moment and be like, oh, well, okay, I'm here.
I'm present. I'm feeling into my body. I'm feel I'm noticing what's happening in my mind, and that's it and then you can go back to work. And even just those micro hits kind of add up and bring more general, mindfulness or awareness to your life, and that for me was the most transformative thing. And so what happens is as you practice, your baseline of a of kind of presence or of awareness improves. And so then you don't have to actually practice as much. I mean, it's still good to practice a lot, but because your baseline is like, you don't need to eat as much, I guess, is the sense that I have.
H: Oh, so I wanna unpack this a little bit more because there were so many great points there, and I wanna make sure that listeners grab a hold of everyone. I do think we probably need to take a moment to maybe clarify what meditation is and isn't, and also what mindfulness is and isn't. Because there sometimes these two things are used interchangeably. They are related, but not completely interchangeable. But I think this notion that you need to be consistent in however it looks for you. So maybe you decide ahead of time, I have the bandwidth to start exploring mindfulness or exploring meditation.
And I'm gonna do that Monday, Wednesday, and Friday morning. And I'm gonna do it for at least 2 minutes or I'm gonna do it for at least 5 minutes because actually, everything counts. It's not like, if I don't do this amount, why bother? Because I think we like to say that to ourselves. We think something might be harder that we might fail at it. So it's kind of a way of salvaging our ego and not setting ourselves up for failure. But the way you're describing it, I love the flexibility and the consistency. I think there's a sweet spot for people with ADHD where we do need structure.
We do need systems. We do need some degree of consistency or we're likely to forget our best intentions but it doesn't have to be rigid. It looks for you like, however it looks for you is going to be beneficial. And because it's beneficial and because you get those micro hits, and I'm wondering, are we talking hits of dopamine or hits of serotonin, like all the joy juices that our brains naturally make for us like, why wouldn't we wanna do it more?
G: Yeah. It just this thing that we just tend to avoid it and this is just universal. Everyone's like, well, when some people, even when they sit, they really enjoy it. And they're like, well, why don't I sit more even though I do enjoy it? And but the reality is, first of all, it's not always enjoyable. We're not sitting to try to create enjoyment. We're sitting to really connect with ourselves, our present moment experience, and doing that regularly makes things more enjoyable. But it's it that's like a, you know, like a kind of a long term goal, not so much in the short term. So it's really so that to it's really is about kind of consistency, and I could say, like, that I've gone through phases, and I've had phases in my life where my ADHD was just so so so terrible.
Like, now it's like, 10% or less than what it was right? So it was just, you know, extremely difficult and during that time, my thing was I'm just gonna sit and take a few mindful breaths. That's it. That was, like, the only bar I set for myself and if I sat for 2, 3 breaths, that was okay. Usually once I sit, I take at least 10 breaths, sometimes a bit more. Sometimes I'd even sit for a full, you know, 10, 20 minutes. But, yeah, it's just really even just one mindful breath, you know, is like a good start right? So it's the whole thing is the hardest part is typically going from like, you know, no motion to motion. It's going from, like, totally stagnant to moving.
Once you start, usually things are easier and I think at that stage, you just have to have a general guidelines to have enough confidence in, like, I'm doing this. Because the thing is what the other thing that people always do is, like, I'm doing it wrong. This is the most common thing of, like, I don't think I'm doing it right, I think I'm doing it wrong. I tried meditation. I couldn't do it. And it's, like, exactly like you said earlier about, kind of relating to, like, this idea that, oh, my thought should stop or I shouldn't be thinking. And exactly so it's really about, yeah, it's really about, I mean, there's so many ways to approach it.
There's so many ways that you can set a small goal. Like, I'm just gonna sit and try to slow down just a little bit and I think for me that's often it right? It's like, oh, I feel the buzz, I feel the restlessness. Yes, I'm just gonna sit with it, take a moment, be present with it, take a few breaths, and there's a little bit of relief. And that little bit of relief is really significant. So even just noticing little changes is very significant and very helpful and can start to make those changes bigger and bigger over time.
H: It's such a wonderful way of, you know, caring for yourself and accepting yourself moment to moment. Most adults that I know who've grown up with ADHD have internalized a lot of negative feedback, especially the men. You know, because males in general, painting with a broad brush here, tend to be more physically hyperactive, a little bit more emotionally dysregulated, and oftentimes come to the attention of parents and authority figures earlier in life because it's hard to teach someone who's having a hard time concentrating and sitting still.
So the negative voices that we internalize over time, that eventually becomes our voice and how we talk to ourselves. One of the first ways that I started practicing mindfulness was not even trying to slow my mind down, but being present to that negative voice without trying to clap back, without trying to defend myself, without having any kind of reactivity. Like, oh, I guess I really am a piece of shit. It was like, I'm just gonna act like I'm listening to a recording of someone else hating on themself. And I'm just gonna sit here and feel whatever I feel, think whatever I think. I'm just not going to engage with that voice. I'm just gonna be present with it. That was actually really powerful.
Now this is not necessarily for everybody because if you have a lot of childhood trauma, that might actually be traumatizing to just try to do that. But it can also be an avenue for healing when you can think whatever you're thinking and not feel any particular way or feel you need to do something about it or fix it in that moment, there's a lot of freedom that comes from that.
G: So first, like you said, like, yes, with in some cases with trauma, there are some actions that can be taken or some perspectives that you could explore that could be really helpful. And I'm a therapist, so I work with people with childhood trauma pretty much every day. And yet, there so there's this being and doing right? So the doing is, you know, like, okay, there are things to do, but also you have to practice just be. And the way that I am kind of conceptualizing meditation now to try to make it really clear to people what it's about, if you could just make it about one thing, it's about letting go right?
It's about and letting go is not pushing over. It's not rejecting. It's not trying to make things a certain way. It's just about not gripping so tightly. It's about, you know so if you're holding on to something, to let go doesn't mean it's gonna you know, it's not throwing it away. It's letting go and it may fall then drop to the ground. It may not but either way, you're just not holding on to it anymore. And then, things there's this natural magic that happens and it's so counterintuitive. It's so counterintuitive that we think there's this thing I don't like. I want it to go away and we try to, like, push it away or we try to reject it and what we do is we just tighten up around it and we make it more stuck you know?
So like you feel like let's say you're feeling, like anxious and you're like, oh, no, I hate you. When I feel anxious, here comes the anxiety. Oh, damn and you're just what's happening is that attitude towards the anxiety is just adding to it. It's throwing fuels on fuel on the flames. And so what we're really doing is we're just saying there it is, and that's okay. It's this attitude, and that's okay. Like, that's the fundamental attitude of meditation is, and that's okay and it's like a maybe a little smile there. Maybe, you know, depending sometimes I like to add the smile. Some days, like, a smile is not even it's a little triggering or something. We just wanna like, okay. I'm depressed today, and it's okay that way.
But it's just letting yourself be as you are and as you do that, the layers start to come off and things just magically start to shift, like, the patterns slow down and then they don't repeat themselves so intensely and we just get more space. We get more perspective, and there's just a magic that so fundamentally, like, this is true in meditation but also in therapy, that it's actually awareness that catalyzes change. So if we want something to change, the best thing we could do is bring awareness to it. And that, again, is counterintuitive because sometimes we're holding on to things. We want them to go away and so we're just constantly not looking at them.
We're constantly avoiding them but by opening to them, by sitting with them, sure they may you know, rise. We may feel more in the moment but in the long term we're really processing that thing and we're moving, you know, through it. And we don't know how long that's necessarily gonna take and that's the whole attitude is like and this is okay and this is okay and then things just become less intense. They become softer and they we move through them more easily like, life just becomes more fluid and easily. It’s just, I quit I can't begin to explain, like, how deeply my life has transformed, you know, over the last decade or so, because that's when I really ramped up my practice, like, a decade ago where it's like thing things just feel easier, like, fundamentally. Even challenging things feel easier and it's just beautiful. It's like, who doesn't want that?
H: I've had a very similar experience, and I think I'd love to unpack a little bit more of our ADHD diagnosis stories and how we came to understand that meditation and mindfulness might be a way to work with that. But you're reminding me as a fellow therapist and meditator and person who has ADHD, we have so many, commonalities. I remember the first time I took a dose of stimulant medication, and I literally thought it improved my vision. I'm like, oh my God, I can see so much better on this medication. Of course, I realized that's completely crazy, it makes no sense. It's that it slowed my brain down enough that I actually noticed this leaf on this tree has, like, all these little designs in it. I never saw that before.
So the ability to really pay attention to the leaf, to the tree, to the present moment was so clear for me with the medication. And then I wanted to be able to recreate that with or without medication. But I didn't initially find my way to mindfulness and meditation because of my ADHD. I found my way there because of chronic pain. I had a pretty serious car accident, over 35 years ago, and wasn't able to work for a year was left with permanent nerve damage and things in my neck, which is kind of an important part of the body, no matter what you need to do.
And so my doctor, after trying so many different things, so many different medications, procedures, techniques, said, we're at the end of the road here, you're not a candidate for neurosurgery so it is what it is. And I said, do you really mean to tell me there's nothing else we can do? And he said, well, some people seem to get benefit from meditation. And I thought, what have I got to lose so that was kind of my gateway. Now you happen to grow up in a household where this was being practiced. Did you, like, take to it as a kid, or was it not cool because it was something your family did you had to discover it in adolescence for yourself? How did that all work?
G: Yeah. So me and my sisters I have 2 sisters and we always just thought it was kind of interesting or weird and we'd make jokes about it right? My parents wouldn't meditate so much at home because I think there's too many kids in the house. They would go to a meditation group once a week, and we'd ask questions about it, that kind of thing. And, so I remember my parents went to Tibetan Buddhism, and we would to these, Tibetan kind of bazaars with these cultural events, and they once had a guided meditation for kids, which was the first time I did one, and I remember I felt like I was floating. It was like a visualization, just visualizing like light coming out of your heart, just a simple compassion meditation, but I felt my whole sense of like orientation completely different.
And I was like that was really interesting and, but I didn't you know, I was a kid, I didn't take to it at all at that age. And it was, it was years later that I actually started reading eastern philosophy. It was more so just like being in high school being like the world this world doesn't make sense. Because, like, having ADHD in high school, I'm sure you know, is not easy. And it's like and I'm just like I was so, like, oh my god, this is so stupid. None of this makes sense. Like, this is not how education systems should work. This is not how we should be learning, and this is not what we should be learning. And so I started getting into eastern philosophy, and I found this guy, Krishnamurti. He's you know, a great kind of teacher, you could say, but very radical and very against authority and I just loved it at that age. I was like, yeah this guy's, like, sticking it to the man.
Like, he's, like, do not you know, he's, like, basically saying you need to discover your own inner authority that you can't take authority on from outside. And Krishnamurti also spoke at length about meditation and so after reading, I was just so into what he was writing, but not into meditation, and after reading a few books because I was like really into it, I was like, well, I guess start exploring this. And so that was the beginning of me exploring meditation, and it was very much an on off thing through my whole twenties. I went all the way to like a very serious practicing under a Tibetan teacher in a very traditional way, doing my daily practices, going twice a week to meditations and everything, like, doing all of that and then going completely the other direction and then coming back finding another teacher who is a zen teacher doing that again.
So it was, like, kind of in and out, exploring life because I'm not, like, one of those meditation where it's, like, gonna solve all your problems you know? I think it is a deep problem to the humanness of, you know, just being human. It it's like there's nothing it doesn't work with, but it's not the answer to all your problems right? And so, for some people, it could be the answer to some of their big problems though, you know, but very much depending. So, so I was in and out of it and was exploring all these other things, psychotherapy and other, you know, other growth modalities and just, you know, art and all my someone, you know, typical ADHD person with many interests.
But it was really, you know, really around 30 that I really, came back to it, and I found this teacher, Shinzen Young, who, you know, was spoke about it in such a clear way, in such clear terms, that it really just opened up a whole new dimension for me that got me really excited about it again and got me really integrating these things into my everyday life. And so that's, like, my approach now is his approach, which is teaching, like, the fundamental skills, the underlying things that make it work so you can understand them better with understanding, it kinda comes into every aspect of your life. It's more transformative for me, at least.
H: There's so much clarity here because I think a lot of people, like, try it, and they think they know what it is. But they only know what their experience is in that moment of their life, in the conditions of their life at that moment, the type of meditation or mindfulness practice they were exposed to, and whether it resonated with them. And it's such a good point, Jude, to try different forms, try different teachers, try it at different times of your life. Because so many times we try something, it seems too hard or boring or irrelevant or it just doesn't land with us. We somehow can't connect with the teacher, and we move on, and we just take it off our list of options. But in reality, there's so many different ways to learn this skill, to develop this skill, to incorporate it into your life.
It doesn't have to be your daily life. It doesn't have to be every moment of your life. I think of it as a skill in my life's toolkit that I find I do rely on more and more as time goes by. I find more and more people are curious about it and see how it could be helpful to them. But like you, I'm not dogmatic about it. I don't feel like an asshat if I don't meditate today or even this week, because I trust that it's always gonna be available to me, and it will always help me when I remember to use it. But if once I make something dogmatic, and I think this is true of many people I know with ADHD, once we feel like we have to do something in a really prescriptive, rigid way, it becomes a hard no in spite of the many benefits. And I think your approach to making it flexible and kind of user friendly gives people permission to not resist.
G: Absolutely everything you said really, really resonates with my experience, and what I see out there. And it's true that there are endless forms and types of meditation. It is insane. I've always learning about this and always learning new practices, and you can see, like, once you start to understand the underlying principles, you can see them take all these different forms, but nonetheless, it's like I'm always like, oh, that's a cool practice. And so I think that it's great, but it's daunting. And me being an ADHD type who's into these things, it's like an endless thing I could explore forever which is fun. But when you're new, it's like overwhelming. You're like, what like, should I start with this one? And what I say a lot with the ADHD is that a lot of ADHD people, the med they're like, oh, well, you're a beginner, so we're gonna start you on the simplest meditation. But what I found is the simplest meditation is also the most boring meditation.
H: So glad you brought that up.
G: And instead it's like, well, maybe don't go for the simplest one. Like, try out different ones, and now there's a lot more kinda openness and freedom. It used to be that UK, if you wanted to practice meditation, you had to join a Buddhist group and you had to do this very structured, you know, kind of rigid system, but now it's so much more open and this is what I do. You know, this is why I teach and what I do for clients is like, okay, what are your goals? Alright, what is let's try some things out and see what lands you know? And we kinda make we try a few things out and it might be the first thing might really work for them because it's really aligned, but some often not. And, you know, like one of my, clients is a long term meditator, very serious meditator, and he's constantly shifting between practices.
And I'm guiding him too, I'm like, yes like, okay, if this is working and then as soon as it's not working, he has his other one. That he goes, okay well, this one's not working. I'm just gonna do there's this really simple one. We call it do nothing where you just sit and you just let whatever's happening happen right? So you can't do that one wrong because, like, of course, you're always gonna be doing things. Your thoughts come up, everything, but that's all okay. You just bring this attitude it's all okay and you just you're just trying to sit there and trying to let things slow down and what happens then is over time, you might feel that more of a bit of a spaciousness, a bit of a relaxed ease in your being, but that one, for some people, is the most difficult one or the most aggravating right?
Because they need more structure, so it's it really there's so much so many different directions you can go. You can go for the very focused structured ones, or you can go for the more open, kind of even playful ones, and so I have a lot of fun with it myself. I do a lot of, like, visualization stuff and have fun with the visualizations, you can do that
So I think that's like a lot of people like, they're not doing it in an insight way. They're doing it in, like, I've been reprimanded and I have to focus. But it's like, no, no, this is a place where you can be curious. What is, you know, the subtle aspects of my experience? Like how much can I feel in my body? What do those feelings really like, what are those sensations really? How big are they? Are they expanding? Are they do they have a vibrational quality? Are they heavy or light? It's like getting really curious about different aspects of your experience is so fun for me at least.
H: No, I'm with you, it's totally fun. And the curiosity and the I mean, I love that you brought up the curiosity, the need for many of us for it to feel fun. I love that the way you teach your clients is basically you can't fail at this. Like, you can't disappoint me or yourself with this. Like, let's make this as frictionless and fun as possible. Like, there's no way to do it wrong.
G: Exactly. And if it's not working for you, there's something to be learned there. It's not a failure. It's a learning experience, and you can take that and allow it to inform your practice going forward.
H: I totally agree and I think the boredom aspect, I refer to most of my clients and certainly myself, as a result of ADHD, I treat boredom like a life threatening condition. So it's like I have to avoid being boredom. So, you know, when you say if you find something that resonates with you, if you find something that's working, stick with it, I will change it up even if it is working because it starts to feel like a little boring or a little mundane or a little, like, tedious or, you know, the shiny, the sparkly, the novelty has worn off. So I will try something else that maybe won't work as well. Maybe I won't like as much, just to give my brain, like, a refresh.
So that when I go back to the one I like that was working, I get more natural dopamine. It's like I'm rotating, you know, what works with what doesn't work. And you're right some people need, like, the lowest barrier to entry because they have a lot of self doubt. They don't want to fail. They were worried that they won't do it right and all of those unnecessary burdens, but they're very, very common. For that person, the easiest one is the best place. For someone else with a different makeup, they're like, don't give me the baby steps. Come on, like, if we're gonna do this, let's freaking do it you know? Give me something I can sink my teeth into.
So that's actually more appropriate for them as a starter dose. I'm curious to know what your definition of mindfulness is. I have a very classic definition. It works really well for me. It works really well for me to teach and to mentor other people, and it comes down to 3 things. Being open to your reality right in this minute. Not what happened a minute ago, not what's gonna happen a minute from now, but, like, what is your reality in this very moment? Your body, your mind, your emotions, like and don't fight it. Don't resist it. Don't push it away. Just like, be open to whatever is because fighting with reality is a losing game every single time to be curious.
So I'm feeling kind of pissy right now. I'm feeling kind of meh. I'm feeling kind of angry. I'm feeling frustrated, why that is. Like, I wonder why I'm feeling this weird kind of pain in my right hip that I usually don't feel when I sit in this position. That's kind of interesting and then I think the 3rd necessary ingredient is you're not judging any of it. You're not judging your reality. You're not judging where your curiosity leads you. There's, like, zero judgment, you just are. And I think this is challenging, but I find the longer I'm practicing it, the more naturally it just comes with almost no effort or even having to, like, push my mind in that direction. That's just kind of how I naturally show up more and more over the next few years.
G: That’s perfect, I was just gonna say to the openness and the nonjudgment are two sides of the same coin right? Because judgment is closing your mind, literally. So, yeah, I don't I use you know, I have a different like, I have could figure out a really comprehensive, definition. But same as you, I just have simple kind of working ones. And it it's simply, I mean, well, it's kind of the there's different ones I use in different situations, let's say, but I think if I'm gonna make it as simple as possible, it's meeting our experience with openness or with an open heart.
So it's like, yes, openness, like, ng you're noticing if there's any resistance in you or judgement or you know? And you're softening that and if you that doesn't soften, then you just accept that. You're open to that right? So it's like you're basically, being as open as you can and then any, you know because sometimes there's just closeness and that's just what there is. And then you're just open to that closeness right? And you're just like observing that and being with the closeness.
H: That's so good.
G: So, so yeah it's just really about being intentional with our awareness or our attention. And yeah, I'll often say, yeah, meeting it with an open heart. The one the term that I use a lot I kind of, you know, I avoid using it because a lot of people don't it's not well defined, you know, collectively is the term equanimity. And the Buddhist kind of way or at least some Buddhists because it does have different definitions depending on who you ask, but it's really about not it's about being experienced fully or, like I said earlier, this is okay, just allowing things to be okay. It's that fundamental attitude right? And it's just not trying to change things, it's like we're not trying to make anything go away.
We're not trying to make anything happening happen at all. It's just allowing everything to be as it is and that is, like, an attitude right? It's a fundamental attitude and we're always coming from, like, an attitude. We meet everything sometimes we just aren't aware of that what our attitude is because it's so normalized or so ingrained right? But there is an attitude, and so it's being aware of what attitude am I meeting my experience with and can I meet it with a little more, you know, openness or ease or allowance or okayness? Whatever word resonates, but those are all in the equanimity kind of pool.
H: I think you're right. I think you're right, equanimity is, it often sounds like a goal. I'm working towards more equanimity. I remember hearing a lecture once that said, you know, the goal of equanimity is for you to be just as okay with hearing that you've been diagnosed with a terminal illness as hearing that you just won the lottery. I'm like yeah, okay I think that's, I mean, it might take me a little bit of time to wrap my mind around that because I don't think the goal of any insight is to deny our lived experience and to deny the reality of our emotional reactions. But to just be with them and not judge them, hate them, push them away, cling to them, just kind of have a loose and open hand that they can rest upon, and you can take a look at them.
And, you know, I just think there's so much to be gained, in terms of awareness. I don't think too many people think that the goal of meditation and mindfulness is insight, but that is inevitably a result. I think a lot of people think, oh, I would I'd like to be more patient. I would like to be less anxious. I would like to not be so restless. I would like to not be so troubled by my racing thoughts. But insight is the way through those things. And I'm sure you've heard the expression, what we resist persists. I don't think I ever really understood it until I started meditating and really started becoming more aware of just how much I was resisting things while thinking of myself as a very open minded person.
G: Yeah. Absolutely.
H: Do you have a similar experience?
G: Actually tell you what, one of the one of the most common things is that the misunderstandings about equanimity is that people think it means not being reactive. And this is the thing is equanimity leads to non reactivity. That's where it eventually goes. But the practice of equanimity is actually just being okay with your reactivity right? So it's not trying to stop. If you are a reactive person, you're just like, okay. You know, when this happens, I get really angry and then you you're not trying to stop the anger. You're just noticing the anger and you're letting it arise. And as you do that, as if you're not feeding it, if you're not thinking thoughts that are throwing fuel on the fire, then it will just kinda fade more naturally than if you're feeding it.
So it's just recognizing, yeah, we are reactive and that's okay and then it's learning to watch your reactivity. And when you do these things, these are where the insights come and the insights come around, you know, our reactivity kinda cause and effect and all of these things that starts to loosen up and create more space and then there's just naturally less reactivity when you practice this way, when you just practice being aware and okay with whatever is arising.
H: This is such a good explanation. I do think that a lot of people have that confusion and they'll say, well, why would I want to, like, learn how to meditate in practical night mindfulness? I don't wanna be like a bland, passive person who just doesn't actually give a shit about what's going on in them or around them and I'm like, oh, no that's not where we're going. It's that you're not more self aware. You're more other aware. You're more reality based, and you can actually choose how you want to react instead of just going with the neural pathways that you've created over many, many years where you're really unconscious to your own existence moment to moment and you think it's your personality. Most of it is like learned responses that you've just practiced over time unconsciously. It's not who you actually are, which can feel kind of threatening when you encounter these teachings in your thirties, forties, fifties, and beyond. Like, what do you mean I'm not, like, this guy?
G: It's funny like, the fundamental thing it gives you is freedom right? And in that freedom, you can choose. You can choose whether you're gonna be this or that. And what you realize is that, you know, this is I've really had this experience where I realized that I was not aware of so much of the so many of the factors that were motivating my behavior you know? And I and I think when I was young, I would get in these situations where I was really trying to, like, prove myself, you know, and really try to show how smart I was or how cool I was or whatever it was. And, you know, the more I meditate, the more I have self awareness, you know, the more I watch my thoughts and feelings, and the more I just become aware that that's the motivator, and the more I become just okay with who I am fundamentally and less of a need to prove myself.
And so, yeah, I'm not as, like, engaging like I used to be, and I'm not like you know? But I could be if I wanted to. I just don't feel the need to prove myself anymore. I don't feel the need to go over the top, and I still love to, like, you know, have engaging, like, conversations. I love to talk about this stuff all day, but it's not coming from a place of, like, I'm gonna show everyone, you know, how much I know and they're gonna think I'm a real smart important person. That used to be there very much so. And that's, like, faded and faded and faded and now it's just like I'm just enjoying myself. It's a totally different energy. I'm just enjoying life, and it's so liberating. It's so freeing to just, do things for their pure enjoyment of them.
H: I don't think too many people realize that a lot of their interactions with other people are trying to get needs that weren't met in childhood met in adulthood. Like, need to feel important, need to feel accepted, need to feel like you belong, need to feel enough, need to feel admired or respected. Or and it's like when you don't have those needs driving your behavior with other people, you're probably way more interesting to the people that you actually want to get to know. Because otherwise, they're just coming to the Jude show or the Diann show or, like, whatever performance we're running at the time because hey listen, I know plenty of a people with ADHD who are, like, performers in in all kinds of arenas. You know, we kind of like that, that fires a lot of us up.
Like to be public speakers, podcasters, you know, actors, athletes, dancers, whatever. We kind of like getting that attention from other people. But, you know, it sounds like mindfulness and meditation has been a way for you to maybe see yourself in a way that you're like, I don't know if that's the person that I need or want to be and I can kind of release that and bring it to myself. Like, my opinion of me is actually a whole lot more opinion. I think that's one of the things that I've loved about getting older. I don't love all of it, to be clear. But other people's opinions have become so much less important, and that has freed me to accept myself more and be okay with me, even if I can tell someone else isn't.
It doesn't trouble me the way it used to and I didn't feel like I needed to change me so that other people would like me more. It's kind of like, you know, I'm like, I'm not for everybody. Everybody's not for me, that creates a ton of freedom too. And I think, who knows, if I hadn't been meditating for the last 20 years, maybe I wouldn't be there by now. Because I see plenty of older adults who do not appear to have gotten off that particular bus. They're still trying to impress and perform and pander to other people's opinions. I always think that's kind of sad when I see that in a much older adult you know?
G: And, yeah, I think fundamentally, it's just like again, this is, like, over time with practice. It's just so clarifying. It's so clarifying on, like, oh, wow. Like, I'm putting so much stock into to what these people think of me or I'm so driven by this. And, you know, it's again, we're not trying to change these things when we notice them. We're just noticing them, and then over time, they just change organically. Like, we just grow so I'll often use this metaphor. It's like a plant growing, where if you look at a plant and you're trying to see it grow, you're not gonna see this plant grow in the moment. You know, you look at it the next day, you're gonna be like, it's the same plant. It hasn't grown at all and that's what it's like with meditation. It's like your day to day like, don't get me wrong.
Actually, some days you have a good practice and it really puts the day into motion in a great way. But your fundamental being, like, who you are is always growing. It's always changing, and it's either becoming more rigid and more locked into these, like, patterns that, you know, might not be helpful or you're becoming, you know, more free and more aware and more open. And so it's just like we're guiding our growth in the direction we want and when you practice, there's so much clarity around like, for me, it's values right? It's like, what do I really care about? What do I really want out of my life? And my values, you know, I think I would have been shy to admit it like, you know, 5 years ago about how much I wanted success and, validation from the world out there.
Just, like, not from any one person in particular, but just from the world. I wanted to be seen as, like, someone who had done good in life, had had, you know, become successful and was smart and had knowledge and wisdom, whatever it is. And, and I think I got, you know, enough of that that I'm like, that's good. I'm good now, I think a lot of people get to this point where it's never enough. It's like they're like, it's like, okay. I got validation and then it fades. And now I'm like, no, I've actually I've literally got all the validation I need in this lifetime. Like, I'm happy with what I did, I'm so proud of the work I do with clients. I'm so proud of the work I put out on my YouTube channel, on my Substack. Like, I'm very proud of this, but there's not a need for it anymore, and this is why you'll see me not post for months at a time.
And, like, I'm not doing a good job of growing my stuff, like, because I'm just I'm actually, like, pretty content with the way my life is balanced, and it's always changing like, it you know? So I think I'll go through periods where I work more and I'm more, like, really focused on these projects and I really wanna get them done and I'm really, you know, working on them and then times where I'm like, no. I don't really care about work so much, I'm going for walks. I'm enjoying my friends. I'm enjoying the parks, you know? It's just like the simple things can be just as they're just as necessary, just as important. I give them just as the quality of attention I give them is just as much right?
It's like often we don't see these little things because we're so focused on some big goal that's so far off that our day to day is just so, like, wrapped up in this idea of I'm gonna be happy in the future. And so it's just really, like, actually, like, my life is good. And, actually, it's not perfect and, you know, it does it has its challenges. It there's so much that I want to change. I'm in the process of changing it, and yet I still totally appreciate it the way it is today.
H: I was planning to ask you as a wrap up question, this is so I'm smiling so hard right now. Because I was planning to ask you what you think about this. Like, I personally do not think there is a contradiction between loving and accepting myself exactly as I am right now. I call it radical self acceptance. Whether I'm having a great day, I'm having a shit day, whether I'm productive, whether I'm slothful, like, I refuse to blame, shame, or hate on myself one more moment of this precious human life. I'm just gonna accept myself as I am right now. And I'm usually working to develop or grow some aspect of myself, I don't see a contradiction. To me, those two things, like, are side by side and fit neatly together and I was going to ask you what you thought of that. But the last 3 minutes of what you've been sharing, like, dude, like, you anticipated the question and just delivered the solution. It's like you’re content and growing.
G: Well, let me say to you that the contentness, the kinda, you know, the self love, self acceptance, that was a long journey. It was a long process. It didn't happen overnight. But it did happen or it's in the process of happening more and more. I don't know if it's ever done. I don't know if you're ever fully and there's always deeper you can go maybe you could say. But yeah, no, it's a 100% that it's like we think and I've encountered this so much with clients that we think that to be motivated to change, we need to not be happy with our present, and it's completely there's no science fact. There's nothing and for some people, that can work, I think, in a as a short term motivation. But I think as a long term motivation, if you want consistency, that is not the way to go. That you can see that you can be like, I think was it Ram Dass? Some one of the greats, was it Ram Dass or Alan Watts? Someone said, like, life is perfect, and it can always get better.
H: It's so true. It's so true, so so true. So if people want to hear more from you, get to know you better, possibly consider working with you, where would you like them to go? What would you like their next step to be to find out more about you?
G: I think Substack and YouTube channels are where, like, most of my work is. And before, it was more YouTube now it's a bit more Substack. But it's just kinda moving between right so it's Being Integrated. If you search Being Integrated on another Substack or YouTube, you'll find me, and my website is beingintegrated.net. And that's if you wanna work with me or, you know, kind of learn more about my background, but those links are there on both my Substack and YouTube.
H: I have been so delighted with this conversation. I knew I would be because we have so many commonalities. But just hearing the way you describe your experiences and I'm just picturing, you know, you having a t shirt or a coffee mug or maybe a forearm tattoo that says, and that's okay. Like, I'm gonna hear your voice in my ear saying, and that's okay, I think, for a good long while after this conversation.
