When She Leads and He Follows (Biblical Marriage Roles)

Ever written off Christianity because you assume biblical marriage is oppressive? Or maybe you're a Christian who feels awkward defending what the Bible teaches about marriage roles? Join Matt Edmundson for an honest conversation that challenges cultural caricatures whilst unpacking what Scripture actually says.

In this refreshingly honest message, Matt tackles Ephesians 5 head-on - yes, the bits about headship and submission that make everyone uncomfortable. But instead of religious jargon or defensive posturing, he demonstrates how these instructions were radically counter-cultural in the Greco-Roman world and remain revolutionary today. You'll discover why mutual submission changes everything, how biblical headship is about wearing a crown of thorns rather than gold, and what happens when both spouses compete to put each other first.

Journey with us through:

• [03:00] Why we struggle with biblical roles
• [08:00] Submit one to another
• [12:00] Headship isn't a crown of gold
• [18:00] Real life examples that work
• [22:00] What the research actually shows
• [28:00] Your questions answered in Conversation Street

[03:00] Why We Struggle With Biblical Roles

Matt addresses the elephant in the room: have we connected 1950s stereotypes to biblical teaching and become ashamed of both? He shares the story of when he and Sharon decided she'd stay home with the kids - not because the Bible demands it, but because they felt God's leading. People's reactions revealed the cultural assumption that someone has to lose.

"We've bought into the assumption that someone fundamentally has to lose. That Sharon somehow lost by staying home with the kids. But that's not biblical thinking at all."

What we explore:

• Why marriage roles become zero-sum games in our culture
• The difference between biblical teaching and cultural stereotypes
• How relationships shift from serving to scorekeeping
• Why we feel we have to apologise for biblical roles

Key takeaway: When we approach marriage asking "What am I losing?" someone will always lose. But that's not what the Bible teaches.

[08:00] Submit One to Another

Matt unpacks Ephesians 5, starting with the crucial first line that changes everything: "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ." This is mutual submission - both husband and wife submitting to each other.

"Submission doesn't mean passively giving up all your rights and becoming a doormat. It means to willingly yield, to give way, to serve one another out of reverence for Christ."

Real talk about:

• What submission actually means (not what culture says it means)
• Why wives submit to their own husbands, not to men generally
• How submission is about actively seeking the other's good
• Why both partners asking "How can I put you first?" transforms marriage

Key takeaway: Biblical submission is the exact opposite of asking "What am I getting out of this?" It's about both spouses putting the other first.

[12:00] Headship Isn't a Crown of Gold

The verse that makes everyone squirm: "The husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church." But Matt demonstrates this isn't about power or hierarchy - it's about modelling Christ.

"Biblical headship isn't about wearing a crown of gold. It's about wearing a crown of thorns. Christ's headship over the church wasn't about dominance or control. It was about grace and sacrifice."

Discover:

• Why headship means dying to self, not getting your way
• How "love your wives as Christ loved the church" changes everything
• What servant leadership actually looks like in practice
• Why this was radically counter-cultural then and now

Key takeaway: Men, headship is about ensuring your wife's needs are met, even at cost to yourself. That's not dominance - that's sacrifice.

[18:00] Real Life Examples

Matt shares practical examples of what this looks like: Sarah and Abraham's partnership, the Proverbs 31 woman running businesses and making decisions, and the Edmundsons' swing seat story.

"Whoever gets outside first has deliberately sat in the seat facing the house so the other person gets the nicer view. It's both of us competing to put the other person first."

What works in practice:

• Biblical women who had voice, authority, and agency
• Small daily choices that demonstrate mutual service
• How partnership honours both people's callings
• Why focusing on serving increases what you receive

Key takeaway: It's not about hierarchy or keeping score. It's about both people looking for ways to serve and seeking the other's happiness.

[22:00] What the Research Shows

Does this actually work? The data says yes. Matt shares research showing that when both spouses focus on serving rather than getting, marital satisfaction increases dramatically.

"When husbands actively serve and sacrifice for their wives, studies show wives have much higher relationship satisfaction. When wives respect and support their husbands, husbands become more loving and self-sacrificial."

Evidence that God's plan works:

• Couples who serve together have significantly higher relationship quality
• Service generates service in an upward spiral
• Love creates love, respect builds respect
• You sow what you reap in marriage

Key takeaway: When you give in marriage, what you get increases. That upward circle just keeps going.

[25:00] Understanding Love Languages

Matt introduces Gary Chapman's Five Love Languages, showing how we naturally give love the way we prefer to receive it - but that can create mismatches with our spouse.

"Understanding your spouse takes effort. It's not automatic. It takes intentionality, humility, and submission because you have to learn a different way to communicate love better to your spouse."

Practical application:

• Why acts of service don't work if she needs words of affirmation
• How learning your spouse's language requires humility
• The importance of intentionally practicing their love language
• Why this connects to embracing God-given roles

Key takeaway: Both spouses embracing their roles as opportunities to serve opens the path to brilliant, God-designed marriage.

[28:00] Conversation Street Q&A

Sharon and Jan join Matt to tackle the tough questions from the community about biblical marriage roles.

How did we get to the point where husbands wanted to dominate their wives?

Matt explains that men have an inherent desire to lead, which when taken out of God's boundaries becomes a thirst for power. Values like achievement aren't wrong, but without Christ at the centre, they quickly get distorted. When men take "headship" out of context, ignoring Paul's explicit call to love wives as Christ loved the church, distortion happens rapidly.

How do you make decisions when husband and wife disagree?

It depends on the level of decision. For smaller things where one person feels more strongly, sometimes the answer is simply "You care about this more than I do - go for it." For bigger decisions: pray about it, talk it through and listen to each other, don't make rash decisions, and if you still can't figure it out, seek outside counsel from trusted friends and church leaders. The husband pulling out the "I'm head of the house" trump card? That's never the answer.

What if one spouse is a Christian and the other isn't?

First Peter 3 addresses this specifically - wives can win unbelieving husbands "without a word by their conduct." Matt shares the powerful story of Polly and Smith Wigglesworth. When Smith forbade Polly from going to church and locked her out overnight, she slept on the doorstep. In the morning, she simply stood up, brushed herself down, and made him breakfast. That act of winning him over through respectful conduct brought him back to Christ and kickstarted one of the world's most incredible healing ministries.

How do you respond to people who think biblical marriage is outdated?

After 27 years, the proof is in the eating. People who initially didn't understand have come back to say "You and Sharon are one of the few couples we can look to and see what good marriage looks like." It's also worth asking questions: Why do you think that? What do you mean by outdated? Often people carry opinions they don't really understand. When you drill down, the discussion runs out of steam because fundamentally, if the Bible is being made the enemy, we need to ask if we've misunderstood something.

Is it too late to change if you've been doing things differently?

It's never too late. Matt has seen marriages a few years old where God gets involved and does something amazing, and marriages on the rocks for 20, 30, 40 years where God restores and does incredible stuff. No one's ever too old and it's never too late for God and the gospel.

Nobody Loses, Everybody Wins

Matt brings it home: we've confused stereotypes with biblical truth. Biblical marriage isn't about returning to the 1950s - it's about discovering God's original design. When both spouses embrace their roles as opportunities to serve rather than restrictions to break free from, nobody loses and everybody wins. Your marriage becomes a living picture of the gospel itself.

My name is Matt Edmundson, and whether this is your

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first time or whether you've been part

of our journey since the beginning,

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it's brilliant to be with you.

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We are a community of people figuring

out what it means to follow Jesus in

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real life, not the polished, perfect

version, but you know, the messy,

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genuine, brilliant reality of this

whole thing called Christianity.

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So let me give you a little

roadmap of what's gonna be

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happening over the next hour.

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We'll have a talk last about 20 minutes

looking at the topic of relationships,

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which is the section of our series

becoming whole, that we are looking

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at exploring how Christ makes us

whole across every domain of life.

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After the talk, we've

got Conversation Streets.

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Oh yes.

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This is where we dig into what

you've just heard, and you get

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to be part of that discussion.

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So if you're with us live, jump into

the comments, share your questions,

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your thoughts, and your stories.

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And of course, if you are watching on

Catchup or listening to the podcast, then

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thanks for being part of the Crowd too.

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Right.

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Let's meet your hosts

and let's get started.

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Sharon Edmundson: Well, hello

everybody and welcome to Crowd Church.

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I'm Sharon, and I'm hosting tonight,

along with the fabulous Jan.

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Hi everyone.

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Jan Burch: Good evening.

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Sharon Edmundson: Uh, um, I hope

you appreciate that me and Jan

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have color coordinated tonight.

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Yeah.

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You'll notice our speaker

did not get that memo.

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But anyway, um, so at Crowd Church,

uh, a long, long time ago we started a

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series on biblical wholeness and we've

already covered spirit, soul, and body.

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And we are currently in a, um, a section

of this about relationship wholeness.

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And last week, my lovely husband Matt,

started us off talking about marriage

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and Jan, what have we got tonight?

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Jan Burch: Yeah.

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Um, Matt is continuing, um, the topic

on marriage, but we're talking about the

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different roles, um, within marriage.

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Sharon Edmundson: Yeah.

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So quite controversial, uh, contentious,

but he kind of loves all that.

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Mm-hmm.

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So, um, yeah.

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Do, uh.

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Yeah, comment in the comments.

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Um, tell us your thoughts, um,

where you are in the world.

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Um, yeah, join in any thoughts, questions.

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We'd love to hear from you and get

a bit of that interaction going.

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Mm-hmm.

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But for now, we will jump

straight into the talk.

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So over to Matt.

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Matt Edmundson: Well, good evening.

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Welcome Crowd, Church.

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Good to be with you.

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And yes, I did not get the memo.

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Uh, I'm very sorry ladies, uh, that

I did not get the memo and I've

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not participated in the blue tops.

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Uh,

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we should maybe do the communication one.

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Anyway, let's jump into this.

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Uh, as they said, we're talking

part two of marriage Now.

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Have you ever seen right, this

kind of poster floating around?

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Uh, it's the 1950s housewife.

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In the fluffy dress and the apron standing

next to her Hoover, with that perfect

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smile, beaming, like she's just discovered

that the secret of eternal happiness is

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actually found in household appliances.

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We've all seen them right now.

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What do you think, right when

you see something like this?

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Um, I tend to see these kind of

things these days on Instagram, you

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know, and, and they, they come with

all kinds of captions attached to

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them, you know, from the tra wives

to the patriarchy, everything.

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But one thing that it does make me

think about, and that is weather.

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As Christians, we have connected

stereotypes like this to

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biblical teaching about marriage.

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Have we taken that idea from the 1950s

and decided that actually that's what.

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Christian marriage is all about because

if we label that stereotype as something

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like it's old fashioned or even something

that is wrong, or dare I say it,

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potentially harmful, and if that's, if

that stereotype is something that we're

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ashamed of, then we subconsciously do

the same thing to the biblical teacher

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and we've connected to it right.

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But what the Bible teaches us

about marriage and specifically

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our roles in marriage isn't about

keeping women in pennies or men

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on pedestals far from it in fact.

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And as you would expect this being church.

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Um, you know, I think actually

that what the Bible talks about is

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actually the most liberating thing.

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For your marriage to understand biblical

roles in marriage, which is what we're

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gonna look at tonight here on Crowd.

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And if you'd like, if, like Sharon

said, if you're joining us live, say hi.

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In the comments, write your questions.

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If you have any questions as we go

through, we would love to answer them.

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It is obviously worth saying

that wherever you find yourself

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relationally, I believe that God

has got something for you tonight.

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So if you are married and

things are going well.

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Excellent.

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This might help you to understand why.

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Of course, if you're married and

you are struggling, I think this

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could actually offer your marriage,

uh, some hope, you know, a hope for

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something better if you're single.

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Um, it gives you a vision, I

think, of what you can look for

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and build towards in marriage.

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If you're divorced, then this is

definitely not about condemnation, uh,

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on any kind of level, but understanding

may be where things went wrong, uh, and

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what healing could potentially look like.

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And of course, you might be in a

relationship or maybe you might be like

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my son who's just gone and got engaged.

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Congratulations, Joss.

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Uh, this is about discovering God's

design before you make it official, right?

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Because here's the thing.

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An important truth to remember as

we get into this, I think the word

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of God can bring conviction, but I

don't think it brings condemnation.

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So conviction shows us

a better way forward.

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Condemnation just makes us feel well,

just makes us feel a little bit, Pence,

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a bit rubbish about where we've been,

and today is about moving forward.

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It's not about beating

ourselves up for the past.

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So with that caveat over, let's jump

into it and address the elephant in the

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room and ask ourselves the question.

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Um.

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Why do we struggle so much with

this idea of biblical roles?

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Why do we find it such a

hard question to answer?

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Right?

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It's a really interesting

question, isn't it?

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Why do we struggle with this?

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Why do we struggle with this

as Christians, uh, and why do

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we struggle with it as maybe

people outside of the church?

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Now, when Sharon and I started family

planning, which I think is a really

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great phrase for, to describe what is

actually going on, uh, family planning,

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uh, when we decided that we would

start a family, well, Sharon would,

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was gonna stop working okay, uh, and

stay at home with the kids full time.

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Now there are a number of reasons we made

that decision primarily because right.

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Uh, we felt God was leading us

there, which gave us the faith

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to embark on that journey.

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Also, it was something Sharon

actually wanted to do, even though

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none of her work mates were doing it.

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And it would actually be quite

difficult for us to do, especially

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'cause Sharon was actually earning

more money than me at the time.

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So we were given up a key income,

uh, but we felt God was in it and

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that it would be an adventure and

that we could believe God in that.

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Now, people's responses, uh, to that

decision, though I we're interesting.

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Um, most people were just

like, that's brilliant.

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That's wonderful.

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It's great.

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Go for it.

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See how you get on.

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Let us know if we can help.

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Some people responded with,

well, is that a bit outdated?

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Is that a bit old fashioned?

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You know, and you can see people sort

of wonder, um, whether Sharon was being

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held back from a career, whether this

was somehow my decision imposed on her

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rather than something she had chosen.

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Now to clarify here at the start, I

personally do not think that it says

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in the Bible that women should stay at

home, uh, and that men should go to work.

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You know, I just, that's not what I think.

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I know couples where the guy

stays at home with the kids and

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the wife works, and that's great.

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Um, but also it's important to recognize

that we live in a society where two

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incomes are often essential, right?

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I mean, super essential.

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Um, and I believe that God leads each

family to what's best for that family.

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I really do.

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So I don't think.

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To clarify, the Tread wife idea is

what the Bible explicitly teaches as

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the only way forward for Christians.

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But I do think as Christians,

like I say, we get uncomfortable

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about this conversation.

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We almost feel like we have

to apologize for the idea of

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biblical roles in marriage.

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But why?

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And why do progressives

look at them with disdain?

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And I think the reason lies in the

idea, or maybe even the assumption

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that someone fundamentally has

to lose, that Sharon somehow lost

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in staying at home with the kids.

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So marriage roles then become a zero

sum game where one person's gain is

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automatically another person's loss.

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And in that instance, relationships become

about getting my needs met rather than

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serving, which is the foundation of the.

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The covenant relationship we started

to look at last week, and if you've

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not heard that, it was a good talk.

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Even if I do say so myself,

do go check that out.

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Now when we approach marriage,

then through this, through

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this lens of what am I losing?

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What power am I giving up?

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Um, what freedoms am I sacrificing?

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Then of course someone's going to lose.

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But I don't think that is biblical.

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I don't think it's

biblical thinking at all.

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And in the New Testament, the Apostle

Paul, Saint Paul, the aged Paul, uh, who

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wrote quite a few of the letters in the,

in the New Testament, he put it this way,

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went right into the church in Ephesus.

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He said, uh, submitting to one another

out of reverence for Christ wives, submit

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to your own husbands as to the Lord.

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For the husband is the head of the wife,

even as Christ is the head of the church,

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his body and is himself its Savior.

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Okay, so let's tackle

then some of these things.

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Head on.

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Yes, the Bible talks about headship

and yes, it talks about submission.

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But there are some really, really crucial

things to note down before we go down the,

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you know, the patriarchy at work thinking,

which is not to say that men have abused

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these verses because they absolutely have.

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And I think shame on you if you have, if

you've taken the Bible out of context.

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Um, but we do need to address 'em

and we do need to talk about them.

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So let's jump into what

they actually mean.

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Now at the start of that verse,

the first sentence that we read

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out, uh, notice what it says.

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Submit to one another out

of reverence for Christ.

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Okay, so these verses, these

instructions, uh, from Paul were

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written, uh, in this place of what

we would call mutual submission.

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This idea of submitting one to another

mutual submission, men submit to your

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wife, uh, and wives submit to your husband

mutual submission, submit one to another.

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So what does submit mean?

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As well as just being a, you know, a

button on an HTML form on a website.

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Send my form off.

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Uh, what it does, what it doesn't mean

is passively giving up all of your

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rights and becoming a doormat, right?

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That's not what it means, but

what it does mean is to willingly

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yield, to give way, as we would say

in England, uh, and to serve one

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another out of reverence for Christ.

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So in other words, it is the exact

opposite of asking the question,

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what am I getting out of this?

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Right?

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Because submission is actively seeking

the good of the other person, the good

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of your spouse, putting their needs

ahead of your own, and relating with

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humility, with respect, and with service.

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Not demanding of your own rights, but

being willing to put them aside for

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the sake of your spouse, because your

ultimate motivation is obviously.

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Honoring Christ.

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That's the goal in your marriage.

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So in this area of mutual submission,

Paul now specifically talks to

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wives and he says, wives submit to

your own husbands as to the Lord.

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So what's he talking about here?

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Well, first and foremost, he

starts off with your own husband,

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not somebody else's, right?

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Uh, and not men.

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There's a big difference.

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Submit to your husband

is not submit to men.

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This verse is in the context of marriage

and not life generally, but it's also

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in the context of mutual submission, and

both are really, really important points.

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As we read on it says, uh,

for the husband is the head.

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Of the wife.

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So we're getting in deep now, aren't we?

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So husbands, I really want you to

pay attention here because I don't

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think Paul's point is about power.

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It's not about hierarchy or some

kind of unilateral authority.

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I don't think it's that in the slightest.

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You cannot, you cannot talk about headship

without referencing the entire verse.

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Okay?

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Um, so the entire verse reads for the

husband is the head of the wife, even

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as Christ is the head of the church.

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Okay, so Headship Men is about you

modeling Christ in your marriage.

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Biblical headship is

then, how can I put this?

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It's not about wearing a crown of gold,

it's about wearing a crown of thorns.

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Christ's headship over the church was

not about dominance, it was not about

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control, but it was a, it, it, wait.

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It wasn't about getting

his own way, was it?

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But it was about grace and

it was about sacrifice.

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And Jesus literally sacrificed everything,

his life for the sake of the church

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and for the church's flourishing

and for the church's wellbeing.

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And that is what headship is all about.

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And just to really press this

point home, Paul goes on to clarify

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for as men, because we often need

clarification over these points.

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Uh, husbands love your wife as Christ

loved the church and gave himself for her.

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So that's not dominance, right?

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That's like a dying to self.

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That's a, that's not about getting your

needs met, that's about ensuring somebody

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else's needs, your wife needs are met,

even if that's at a cost to yourself.

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So headship is not about

controlling your wife.

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It never has been.

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It's not about you telling her what she

can and can't do, or what she can and

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can't wear, or who she can and can't see.

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And if you do that, stop it.

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It's not good.

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Biblical headship is about modeling

serving first and foremost, because

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in the kingdom of God, right?

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Jesus told us, leadership

is based on serving.

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You wanna be a leader, you

have to be servant to all.

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That is the word of God, right?

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So men, you have to give yourself

up for your wife, and that

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is a very, very high calling.

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And so when you look at this

through that lens, right?

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When you, when you, when you understand

this through that lens, you get to

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understand that when Paul wrote this,

how radically counter-cultural in a sort

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of Greco-Roman world where men dominated

and women were treated like second class

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citizens, how radical this was, how

countercultural it was to bring women into

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this environment of mutual submission and

for men to lay their lives down for her.

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And I still think it is very, very

radically countercultural today.

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And I do wonder then if we've been afraid

to use biblical terms like headship

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and submission, because then of some

cultural narrative, which is at play.

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So we live in a time when any talk of

authority or any talk of hierarchy,

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well, it's a suspect, isn't it?

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Where submission is seen as

weakness maybe, or oppression.

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We don't like it.

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We don't wanna talk about it.

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But the problem isn't the

words themselves, is it?

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It's more the cultural baggage

that we've attached to them.

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Just food for thought.

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I think we've allowed secular culture

to define these terms and these

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ideas for is instead of letting

God define 'em through scripture.

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So biblical submission isn't

about becoming a doormat.

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It is not about losing your voice.

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It is about both spouses, the

husband and the wife asking

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the most fundamental question.

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How can I put you first?

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It's about voluntary and mutual

service that flows from love and

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respect and not from fear or coercion.

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Which to me sounds amazing.

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Like that's how marriage should actually

be if we could get that working, you know,

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which is not always easy to do when you're

dealing with selfish people like me.

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But you look at Sarah, right?

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She submits to Abraham.

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So in the Old Testament, the patriarch

Abraham married to Sarah, she submits,

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but she's also trusted to run entire

aspects of their household and their life.

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She has influence, she has a

voice, she has responsibilities

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and authority in her own rights.

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If you look at the woman in Proverbs 31,

which is a chapter in the Old Testament,

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uh, that we often referred to as,

you know, the, what do they call the,

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the wife of good character, the wife

of good character, the wife of Noble

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character, depending on the translation.

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Um, well, she's hardly sitting quietly

in the corner waiting for instructions

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from a fellow, let me tell you.

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She's buying field, she's running

businesses, she's managing staff,

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she's making decisions, and

she does it all in partnership.

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With a husband in a way that honors their

relationship and their shared calling.

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You know, at our house, there are

two swing seats in our back garden

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positioned sort of opposite each other.

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So the two swings are made during COVID

and you can sit and you in one seat and

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you can look at the other person, uh,

in the other seat and just chat away.

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And it's great, you know, how, how

these two seats face each other, but

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one seat faces out towards the garden,

so you get the nice view of the garden.

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The other seat faces the house.

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And so you get this rather

average view of bricks.

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It's not as quite as enticing really.

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And Sharon and I will often

sit in these swings, right?

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We, we like to catch up, pray together.

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Um, it's our little spot.

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And lately it seems that whoever gets

outside first has deliberately decided

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to sit in the seat facing the house.

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So the other person gets the nicer view.

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And it's a small thing where

we're both trying to ensure the

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other person gets the better deal.

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And I think this is, this is

just a real suite example,

339

uh, of what this is all about.

340

It's not about hierarchy

or who's in charge.

341

It's not about tallies or it's my turn

'cause you sat in that seat last time.

342

It's about both of us competing

to put the other person first.

343

Both of us looking for ways to

serve both of us, seeking the

344

other's comfort and happiness.

345

And so we know from the data that

when we do this, right, when both

346

spouses focus on serving rather

than getting, well, guess what?

347

It's not rocket science, but the

satisfaction and marital satisfaction

348

increases and it increases dramatically.

349

God's plan works, right?

350

I mean, what a surprise.

351

Couples who serve together, whether that's

volunteering, helping others, or simply

352

just prioritizing each other's needs, have

significantly higher relationship quality.

353

Submit one to another.

354

Husbands, love your wife as Christ

loves the church, and take that mandate

355

seriously, because when you do, when

you actively serve and sacrifice

356

men for your wife, guess what?

357

All the studies show that your

wife will have a much higher

358

relationship satisfaction,

which is not a surprise, is it?

359

And when wives respect and support

their husbands, guess what?

360

They become more loving.

361

They become more self-sacrificial,

and it creates this sort of

362

beautiful upward spiral where

service generates service and love.

363

Creates love and respect, builds respect.

364

Which is why in marriage, I don't

have to focus on what I'm not

365

getting or what I am getting.

366

Because when I give, what I get

increases that upward circle.

367

It just keeps going.

368

You sow, you reap.

369

But yeah, I mean, you know, let's be real.

370

I have needs in our marriage.

371

Of course I do.

372

But guess what?

373

God's model works for

getting those needs met.

374

It's all about what you give, right?

375

And it's not about fighting for them, but

it's about sowing and then reaping Now.

376

I do appreciate.

377

With all of that said,

all very high level.

378

There is often in my experience, um,

a mismatch between how we communicate

379

love, or how we give love, and how

our spouse wants to receive it, right?

380

Um, you just read the book of Song of

Solomon, you'll see what that's all about.

381

You can also read a book called

The Five Languages of Love.

382

And if you haven't read either

the book of Song Solomon or the

383

Five Languages of Love, I would

recommend that you do read both.

384

Now, the author of The Five Languages

of Love, uh, Gary Chapman argues

385

that most people naturally give love

the way they prefer to receive it.

386

Okay, but.

387

If you have, if you are in a

relationship where you, you have a

388

different love language to your spouse,

that can lead to misunderstanding.

389

And so the solution is to discover

and intentionally practice the love

390

language most meaningful to your spouse.

391

So a classic example would involve a

husband, for example, who expresses

392

love by doing acts of service like DIY.

393

But if his wife's primary language

of love is words of affirmation,

394

we've got a bit of a mismatch.

395

He's doing acts of service,

but she receives love

396

through words of affirmation.

397

So if he only focuses on acts of service.

398

There's a good chance her wife may

still feel unloved because what she

399

wants is that verbal expression of love.

400

And of course, he may feel

unre, unappreciated if his

401

actions go unnoticed, right?

402

Uh, and so according to Gary Chapman,

if she starts affirming him verbally,

403

and he continues acts of service, but

adds into that express, um, sort of

404

expressions and appreciations, uh,

with words, both will feel more loved

405

and both will feel more connected.

406

But understanding your

spouse takes effort, right?

407

It's not automatic.

408

They didn't teach me this at school.

409

They just, they should have done

maybe, but they didn't, right?

410

Um, it takes effort.

411

It takes intentionality, it takes

humility, it takes submission

412

because you have to learn a

different way to communicate love

413

better to your spouse, right?

414

And it starts with both spouses embracing

their God-given roles, not as some kind

415

of restriction or limitation, but I think

as the path to the sort of brilliant

416

God design marriage that he wants.

417

So if we look back at that Instagram

418

ideology, which you could blame for,

you know, a whole bunch of things that

419

are wrong in the world today, which I

think is what we've done as culture.

420

But if we understand that we've

confused stereotypes with biblical

421

truth and in rejecting the stereotype,

we should ask, have we thrown out

422

God's good design for marriage?

423

So biblical marriage isn't about

returning, and let me be super

424

clear, biblical marriage is not

about returning to some imagined

425

golden age of the 1950s, right?

426

But it is about discovering

God's original design.

427

For marriage, right?

428

You think about Adam and Eve.

429

Man, those two, right?

430

They were married before the fall.

431

That is like crazy old fashioned.

432

I mean, it's super old fashioned.

433

Two people in perfect complimentary

partnership, each seeking the

434

other's wellbeing and both

reflecting the incredible love

435

story between Christ and his church.

436

That's what marriage is all about.

437

So the question I don't think is

whether biblical marriage, uh, biblical

438

roles are outdated or whether they

need to be modernized in some way, or

439

whether they need to be apologized for.

440

I think the question is more, are

we ready to discover the freedom

441

that I think comes when she leads

in her calling and he follows God's

442

design for servant leadership.

443

Because when that happens, when

both spouses embrace their roles

444

as opportunities to serve rather

than restrictions to enjoy, you

445

know, like chains to break free

from, nobody loses and everybody.

446

Wins and your marriage becomes a

living picture of the gospel itself.

447

So that's it.

448

Back to you ladies.

449

Sharon Edmundson: Wow.

450

Oh, thanks for that babe.

451

Um, we've been married 27 years, but

it's still fabulous just to hear like

452

biblical truth and uh, yeah, it just

makes me kind of go, oh, wonder what

453

reactions, uh, you've had listening.

454

Um, which point, I'm gonna take a moment

just to say hi to everyone in the comment.

455

So we've got aid and Heather, MK.

456

Jody, welcome.

457

We've also got me.

458

Hello.

459

Me.

460

Yeah.

461

So, um, as usual, so many

points we could pick up on.

462

Yeah, I think, um, I just wanna

start really, I've got a question.

463

So when Matt's explaining to do

with headship and submission here,

464

it gives a very different picture

to what The abused version of it.

465

Yeah.

466

But from, from those verses, it looks

so clear that it's not about dominance.

467

So I'm, I'm just wondering how did

we get to the point where people,

468

like husbands especially, just

wanted to dominate their wives?

469

Any, any ideas on that?

470

You two?

471

Jan Burch: I I think one of the

things that, that, uh, came out

472

to me was Matt said it takes

humility and it takes patience.

473

It's, it's something that you

have to make a real effort,

474

um, to understand one another.

475

And, um, so I think in the busyness

of the world now, in our society

476

and our culture, I think people have

less and less time or, you know,

477

that that's an excuse in one sense.

478

But I think people would say, I haven't

got time to, you know, we're like, ships

479

that pass in the night or whatever.

480

So I think it's.

481

What Matt said about intentionality,

about trying to understand each other.

482

I think it's an effort.

483

It doesn't just happen overnight.

484

Yeah.

485

Sharon Edmundson: Matt, being a man,

what, why would you say that in the

486

past, men have had a, or some men,

not all men have had a tendency

487

to try and dominate their wives?

488

Matt Edmundson: Uh, this is a

very deep question, isn't it?

489

I think, I think in some respects,

um, we start to look at the

490

biblical role of men in this, right?

491

So, um, there is inherent in

men that desire to, um, win.

492

To, to Do, you know what I mean?

493

I'm, I am appreciate, I'm stereotyping

here, but if you put, put a bunch

494

of men together in deepest, darkest

Africa, they're gonna find something

495

and turn it into a game and there'll

be rules and somebody wins, right?

496

Yeah.

497

And you'll come back a few months

later and somebody will be in charge.

498

There's something about this desire to

lead, um, which is in men that I think

499

when taken out of context, and I think

when taken out of the, the boundaries

500

that God imposes on that leadership.

501

So you, you take men out

of the biblical narrative.

502

Well, that desire to lead becomes

a thirst for power in many ways.

503

And I think it's a fine line, isn't it?

504

So, um, you wouldn't associate,

for example, values like hustle

505

and achievement with a church.

506

Right.

507

It, you would associate values

like community and respect and

508

humility and serving, um, and being

an entrepreneur myself, then I

509

quite like things like achievement.

510

I am slightly competitive

and I think this is okay.

511

I think this way God made me.

512

But I can see how if you don't

have Christ at the center, how

513

that quickly gets distorted.

514

Right.

515

And so because of that, because

men are on the whole, not always,

516

but on the whole stronger.

517

Um, and because men on the whole see

words like headship and take that to

518

mean what they want it to mean, right?

519

And take things outta context,

even though Paul explicitly talks

520

about this as Christ is the head

of the church and love your wives.

521

He said it twice.

522

I mean, that's, you know, that

says something men, doesn't it?

523

Um.

524

I think there's something in that.

525

And I think, um, I think, like I say,

long answer to your question, part of

526

it is God's, um, creation in man, but

outside of God's boundaries, I think

527

that gets distorted quite rapidly.

528

Mm-hmm.

529

Sharon Edmundson: Yeah.

530

Heather's put a comment in his saying

it's interest, an interesting view

531

because Paul has taken hammering within

feminism as being the arch misogynist.

532

Um, and this has been a nice eyeopener.

533

Yeah.

534

I think sometimes we, um, we don't

always understand the culture behind

535

or we don't look at the whole picture.

536

And then if you do just take little

snippets here and there and don't

537

understand the cultural background, it's

quite easy to get the wrong idea, I think.

538

Yeah.

539

Um, I really liked what you said

about headship being about wearing

540

a crown, not wearing a crown of

gold, but wearing a crown of thorns.

541

So Jan, I've got, I wonder

what have you got thoughts on?

542

Um.

543

So he, obviously Matt said about

mutual submission at the beginning, but

544

then it talks about wife submitting.

545

Um, but in the context of how easy

do you think it is to submit to

546

someone who's wearing a crown of

gold as opposed to a crown of thorns?

547

Jan Burch: I think it

would be very different.

548

Um, yeah, I mean, just, just someone

almost demanding, you know, um, submission

549

because of who he is or status, you know,

automatically is, especially in Liverpool.

550

I don't think it would go down very well.

551

I think most women would, uh,

knock it off his head very quickly.

552

But, um, in seriousness, yeah,

obviously you're gonna, the more

553

humble, um, someone is a man is, you

know, in a relationship in a marriage,

554

then you, you're gonna want to.

555

Um, submit.

556

You are gonna want to meet him halfway.

557

Whereas, you know, when someone's

lording it over you literally,

558

it's provokes a different response.

559

Sharon Edmundson: Yeah.

560

It really gets you back up, doesn't it?

561

Yeah.

562

It makes you kind of

wanna do the opposite.

563

Yeah, absolutely.

564

Yeah.

565

The, the story has come to mind of, um,

I'm gonna get my stories mixed up now,

566

but, um, the woman who brought perfume

to Jesus and poured it on his feet and

567

then like, washed his feet with her tears

and like this just act of love and I, I

568

guess submission in a sense in that she

was at his feet and they weren't married.

569

So we're not talking about marriage

here, but, um, I think it's just that

570

whole thing of Jesus is our model and he.

571

He's so servant hearted.

572

He's not a pushover by any means.

573

No.

574

He was very good at calling

people out where they needed it,

575

but with people who needed that.

576

Um, you know, that nurturing, that, that

gentleness, that that's the response that

577

he, you know, brought out of this woman.

578

And I, I kind of feel like that the

crown of thorns, you know, if a husband's

579

wearing that, that gives, that, that kind

of, maybe not quite that extreme, but, um,

580

I've not washed your feet with my hairs.

581

Have I, um, washed your feet with

my tears or dried it with my hair?

582

Matt Edmundson: Uh, and

long may that continue,

583

let's not go there.

584

Yeah.

585

Yeah.

586

I thought it was an interesting comment

though from, um, from Heather about

587

the association of Paul and feminism

and how, um, with feminism, and don't

588

get me wrong, I, pardon me, would say

that I'm a feminist, but I think when

589

feminism and when the patriarchy.

590

Create an enemy.

591

If that enemy is poor or the enemy is

biblical teaching, I think you have

592

to stop and ask the question, why?

593

So why are we, why is, why are we

making the Bible the enemy here?

594

And this comes back to this fear that

if I do this, I'm losing some things,

595

so therefore I have to fight for it.

596

And therefore, to fight,

I have to have an enemy.

597

Right.

598

And I just think as a rule of thumb,

if you trace some of these things

599

back, if the enemy is the Bible,

we have to stop and go, I wonder if

600

we've misunderstood something here.

601

Right?

602

Because when, when we, and I've

heard it, I've heard all the

603

arguments, you know, um, around

this, and I get it and I understand

604

it, but the Bible wasn't written.

605

To us.

606

It was written for us, but

it wasn't written to us.

607

Yeah.

608

And we have to understand who it

was written to in the culture.

609

And so on one hand you have an

outcry saying this is keeping

610

women oppressed, this teaching.

611

I would say what's keeping women

oppressed is the false understanding of

612

that teaching, not the teaching itself.

613

Absolutely.

614

And I think actually when we understand

the teaching, it is insanely freeing

615

for women at that point in time.

616

And even today, I still think so,

but I think, especially, like I say

617

in that Greco Roman world, it's,

it's insanely freeing this idea.

618

I mean, Paul doesn't use the language

obviously of wearing a crown of

619

thorns versus a crown of gold.

620

We use that analogy of,

of Christ, don't we?

621

That he didn't come and rule with a

rod and became, he came to serve and

622

he and he took on the crown of thorns.

623

And I think, I think actually that's

what Paul's getting to, which.

624

There's no argument then again.

625

Well, I mean, you could argue again, did

you, maybe you don't want to go like that.

626

I dunno.

627

But I, I can't understand why not.

628

Sharon Edmundson: It's reminded me of

another passage that I think often gets

629

misinterpreted and used in a wrong way.

630

And that's where Eve is created

for Adam as a helper for him.

631

And we've talked about this

on Crowd before, haven't we?

632

A few times, but, um, I think that's

a, a, the helper word has traditionally

633

been seen as she's subservient.

634

Like she's not that capable.

635

She's like mommy's little

helper kind of scenario.

636

But actually the word helper there

is the same one that is used of God

637

help his people, as in it's somebody

who has, um, some characteristics,

638

some power that he is able to use to

help someone who doesn't have that.

639

Um, and how actually women are created

with things that men need, as in like

640

we, and, and the other way around that.

641

Together.

642

We are like a representation

of God on Earth.

643

We're not God, but we are here as his

rep representatives and that we need

644

each other, whether that's in marriage

or society as a whole, and for us not to,

645

oh, I think in society now we can get, um,

polls apart where like men are looked down

646

on or we've got the extremes, haven't we?

647

Where men are idolized or men

are looked down or on as the, the

648

sole source of evil in the world.

649

And the Bible has neither of those.

650

It's like actually we are created to

work together that we need each other.

651

It's the same in society.

652

It's the same within marriage.

653

And that's more beautiful, I think.

654

Jan Burch: Yeah.

655

Um, I agree.

656

Uh, a hundred percent.

657

Um, I was, I've been talking to a

couple of people over the last week

658

who've, um, a single parents and, um.

659

You know, it's, it's very, very difficult.

660

Um, or, you know, a single parent could be

male on his own or it could be a female.

661

Um, and it's very difficult being all

things to your children, um, without

662

the other, your partner being there.

663

And, you know, physically it's harder.

664

Emotionally it's harder.

665

And, um, I just think

it's a similar thing.

666

You know, society is used to single

parents and, you know, I just think, I

667

think you all deserve an absolute medal.

668

Um, but what I'm trying to say

is, you know, we can recognize

669

that that's a struggle.

670

Someone doing it on their own, but.

671

This shows how God intends

family or marriage.

672

Really it's two people,

um, helping each other.

673

So it's not all on the woman to

do everything, nor is it the man's

674

responsibility to do everything.

675

So we work as a team.

676

How much easier is that?

677

You know, that's how it should be.

678

And, and I'm not, you know, I may

have said that in a confusing way.

679

All I'm saying is single parents.

680

That was an example of someone

doing it all, or you know, I'm

681

sure that they sometimes wish

that someone was there to help.

682

Sharon Edmundson: Yeah.

683

And we're gonna get onto, um,

parenthood in a few weeks, I think, um,

684

looking at fatherhood and motherhood.

685

Um, yeah.

686

So we'll pick up on Yeah, yeah, yeah.

687

Threads of that again.

688

Um.

689

Another just, um,

switching tracks slightly.

690

Another point that you said it in

the talk was that, um, some people

691

assume that having marriage roles

means that somebody has to lose.

692

Um, yeah.

693

Again, any thoughts on that?

694

Jan Burch: Again, I, I totally,

totally understand that.

695

Um, you know, in our house it's the,

it's my husband who takes the bins

696

out every week, and I, but I tend

to, you know, do the hoovering and

697

polishing and whatever, and I, in one

sense, I think he's, he's lost there

698

because I hate taking the bins out.

699

Um, but that when you divide things up

and that's your role and that's, you

700

know, the woman's role, I think, um, if

you view it like that, and he's done less

701

than me or she's done less than me this

week or whatever, but I just think, um.

702

It's, it's something unique to

each couple that you need to

703

talk about, um, to each other.

704

You know, if, if she loves

taking the bins out, great.

705

And if he loves cooking, great.

706

You know?

707

Yeah.

708

It's what works for you as a, as a couple.

709

Sharon Edmundson: Yeah.

710

Yeah.

711

Ellis has put, I think it's interesting

how the wives submit technically applies

712

to men as well as we're part of the

church, which is the bride of Christ.

713

Interesting thought I'd not considered

that one, but I guess that's where

714

the mutual submission comes in.

715

Yeah.

716

Interesting.

717

Like that.

718

Um, okay.

719

So just wanna switch to kind

of a more practical level.

720

So how do you make decisions when.

721

Say if the husband and wife

disagree, how do decisions get made?

722

Is it a case of he pulls out

the Trump card of like, I'm

723

head of the house or what?

724

Matt Edmundson: That

has never worked for me.

725

I just, I just, how we do that is,

I was joking earlier on, wasn't I?

726

How do we make these decisions?

727

Well, we, we disagree.

728

We go away and then I come back

and apologize for disagreeing.

729

We just agree that you were

right in the first place.

730

Sharon Edmundson: He is joking.

731

That's actually how we do it.

732

But you've never actually pulled

out that I'm head of the house.

733

Trump card, have you?

734

No.

735

Matt Edmundson: No.

736

I mean, what would happen if I did?

737

I'm just, I'm really curious.

738

Sharon Edmundson: I think

I'll probably laugh.

739

No, no.

740

Um, no, seriously, so let's

actually answer this question.

741

So disagreements.

742

What's, what do you think is, um, a

healthy, biblical way to deal with that

743

when you kind of, like, maybe you've

discussed it and you've like, reached

744

this point of going, we just don't agree.

745

Jan Burch: Um, I, I just think how,

you know, it depends on, you know, we

746

talking about what, what to have to

eat tea or are we talking about which

747

school to send our children to, or,

you know, whether we should, one of you

748

should take the job at, in New York,

you know, they, they're obviously very

749

different in, in the consequences.

750

Um, I just think it, it, you know, what,

what you said, um, what Matt said about

751

going away and praying about it, um,

and discussing it without getting angry.

752

Yeah, and maybe I think if it's something

big, um, like, you know, one of you

753

thinks God's calling you to Australia

and the other one doesn't, then I would

754

consult with, um, really good friends

that you trust, or your pastor or

755

someone who knows you both really well.

756

Yeah,

757

Matt Edmundson: definitely.

758

Don't call your pastor if you dunno

what you're gonna eat tonight.

759

Like, if you're having that

argument and you call the pastor,

760

then that's just wrong on Sunday.

761

The answer is pasta.

762

Yeah, sure.

763

Yeah.

764

But I think, I think I, I mean,

it's sound wisdom, isn't it?

765

You know, you're gonna pray about it.

766

What does God say?

767

We're gonna talk it through.

768

Right.

769

Um, and we're gonna listen to each other.

770

Um, we're gonna talk it through,

not make any rash decisions.

771

And if we still can't figure it out,

we're gonna go and seek outside counsel.

772

Um, and we're gonna go listen to,

um, people we know, like, and trust,

773

especially in, in, in the church.

774

And it may be husbands that in that

context we go to our church leaders

775

and collectively there might need

to be some mission there, right?

776

So, um, I think that's where you've gotta

be, I think a member of a good church.

777

That's where you, you've gotta

get good people around you.

778

Um, but I, I think those three

things collectively, I think

779

27 years we've done that.

780

Right.

781

I don't, I don't think we've

done anything outside of that.

782

Sharon Edmundson: No, and I think

Jan's right in that there are different

783

levels of decisions, aren't there?

784

I think there's been times where

we've disagreed about stuff and, but

785

it's not like of massive importance.

786

It might be like how we

decorate the house or whatever.

787

And if one of us feels much more

strongly than the other, we've

788

just kind of gone, you know what?

789

You care about this more than I do.

790

So even though I don't agree, you know?

791

Yeah, just go for it.

792

So it does depend.

793

Matt Edmundson: Of course

there's always AI now as well.

794

You can always ask chat GPT, the answer.

795

Sharon Edmundson: It's your new friend.

796

Matt Edmundson: That was a joke.

797

I'm just, I just wanna clarify.

798

Don't ask Google.

799

Don't ask GPT.

800

Sharon Edmundson: Okay.

801

Different question for you.

802

How do you, how could we respond to

friends or family who think that biblical

803

marriage is outdated or oppressive?

804

Jan Burch: It's their opinion.

805

It's getting new friends.

806

Yeah.

807

Yeah.

808

Good for you.

809

I'm joking again.

810

Joking.

811

Uh, it wouldn't alter anything

really, but it would be interesting.

812

Um, know it depends how, how close they

are to you and how important these people

813

are in your life, um, that you would want

to explain why you live the way you live

814

and why you believe what you believe.

815

Um, obviously the closer the relationship

with the person, the more important it is.

816

Um, but I think if you've

got a good stable marriage.

817

Um, you know, like Matt has ex,

you know, talked about today, then

818

I think they will see that you are

happy that you're both doing well.

819

Um, it does, you know, people will

always disagree with our choices.

820

Um, that's, that's okay.

821

Matt Edmundson: I think

it's a fair point, Jen.

822

I think the conversations I've had

with people over the years, it's like

823

after 27 years they can't argue because

they're the ones that have been divorced.

824

They're the ones that have, not all

of them, but you know, a chunk of

825

them have had bad relationships.

826

And so I think the proof, proof

is in the eating, isn't it really?

827

And so, um, I've had a few people come to

me and say, I didn't get it at the start,

828

you know, because they knew me when I

was younger, but they've come and gone.

829

You are, you and Sharon are probably

one of the few couples on the planet

830

that we, we can look to and go,

that's what good marriage looks like.

831

So that in itself speaks

volumes, doesn't it?

832

I think that's, um,

that's a wonderful thing.

833

I think a good thing actually to also

do with people that have questions about

834

it, for me, especially if they're outside

of the church, is why, um, and to ask

835

questions about what they think is wrong.

836

Because fundamentally, like many of

us, we carry opinions that we, we don't

837

really understand why we have them.

838

Yeah.

839

And so when you, when you get the

opportunity to question that and to say,

840

well, why do you think the way you do?

841

And they, and the response

is just a generic response.

842

It's a bit old fashioned, isn't it?

843

Yeah.

844

But what does that mean?

845

Why do you think it's old fashioned?

846

What's old fashioned about

what we're doing and why?

847

And you can start to

drill down that naturally.

848

I think their argument.

849

Uh, not that I've ever really had

arguments about this, but I think that

850

discussion quickly runs outta steam.

851

Sharon Edmundson: Yeah.

852

There's a book that I really love

which, um, is called Tactics.

853

It's by Greg Coco, and I think he's

got a 10th anniversary edition,

854

um, which is the updated version.

855

And it, it's written for Christians

actually to help them share their

856

faith in terms of having the

tactics to be able to have difficult

857

conversations without being horrible

or without getting people's backs up.

858

But it's actually, I

think, really useful for.

859

Um, teaching us to have those difficult

conversations about anything with

860

anyone, not just about faith, but

whether it's politics or whatever.

861

And it, it teaches about asking those

different questions to actually,

862

you know, really help clarify what

somebody means by what they say and

863

help them to clarify their thinking.

864

And also, you know, just to

have those questions to move on.

865

So, yeah.

866

Definite recommendation on that one.

867

Um, I thought of another question then.

868

Oh yeah.

869

Um, so what about if, um, a couple

have been married for a long time

870

and, uh, doing things differently,

maybe not the biblical way?

871

Is it too late to change?

872

Jan Burch: Yeah, no, of course it isn't.

873

Um, it's never too late to change.

874

Um.

875

Which is great news.

876

Um, you know, it, the, there are

many, many reasons why peop some

877

people didn't get a really good, um,

pre-marriage advice or, you know,

878

lots and lots and lots of of reasons.

879

Um, but you found yourself, you

know, 20 years on, um, in a bit of a

880

sticky patch and it's, it feels, you

know, what, what does God really say?

881

We've, we've never really asked

the question in this area.

882

Um, so no, it's never too late to, you

know, to ask God and look at it afresh.

883

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

884

I've just seen way too many people,

way too many marriages get restored

885

and you can, you can look at marriages

at are a few years old and God gets

886

involved and does something amazing.

887

You can look at marriages.

888

That have been on the rocks for

20 years, you know, 30, 40 years.

889

And God gets involved and restores that

marriage and does incredible stuff.

890

So no one's ever too old and it's

never too late for God and the gospel.

891

Sharon Edmundson: Um, to backtracking

to a previous, um, point that

892

we made, Heather's written in my

marriage, the big things have always

893

been discussed and worked through.

894

It's the small things we falter on.

895

We've almost come to divorce

over selecting paint color.

896

Matt Edmundson: You know what?

897

I remember a few years ago, we were, um,

there was a couple that I was talking to,

898

uh, they were, they were having issues

in their marriage because he squeezed the

899

toothpaste tube in the middle of the tube.

900

Do you remember?

901

Um, so rather than he, she wanted

it squeezed from the end and

902

he squeezed it in the middle

and he just could not change.

903

And they came to blows so much over this.

904

It was the most extraordinary thing.

905

And, and there's a, there's a,

there's a phrase in marriage,

906

uh, when, say marriage, there's

a phrase that we use a lot.

907

The issue's never the issue,

but it is a good place to start.

908

Right.

909

So I find in situations like

that, that the issue's not

910

actually about the toothpaste.

911

I mean, it, it might be that really

might be the root of it, but usually

912

there's something else driving it.

913

So talking about the toothpaste

is a good place to start, but

914

usually the issue's not the issue.

915

And there's, there's usually

something, one or two runs down.

916

Yeah.

917

Um, that, that needs to

be sort of weeded out.

918

Um, but yes.

919

Uh, Heather, I don't know if we've

come close to divorce over paint color.

920

Sharon Edmundson: No.

921

I think think maybe a few other things.

922

I, those are the ones that we've more

or less just let go and let the person

923

who's got the, the biggest desire for it.

924

But as you've said that Heather, loads

of things have come to mind in our house

925

where not necessarily through marriage.

926

'cause there's six of us in our house and

there's a whole list of things that I'm

927

like, why have they done it like that?

928

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

929

Sorry babe.

930

It's usually me.

931

It's usually my fault.

932

Sharon Edmundson: I don't think

it actually is solely you.

933

Actually there's a, I.

934

Yeah, there's a, it's not, so

935

Matt Edmundson: you heard this on camera?

936

It's not just me.

937

That gives me a way out.

938

That's awesome.

939

Jan Burch: What,

940

Sharon Edmundson: what

sort of things do you mean?

941

Oh, have you start a, like, you know,

in the bin gets full and somebody just

942

waits for the bin ferry to empty it,

or, um, towels just left in a little

943

bunch where they can't dry out properly.

944

Or the toilet roll not

replaced when it's run.

945

Oh, we could go on.

946

Let's, let's move on.

947

Yeah.

948

This is not therapy.

949

Matt Edmundson: I just want,

950

Sharon Edmundson: could go on for a while.

951

I think we've probably

got time for another one.

952

Um, so, okay, so we've been talking

about, uh, marriage from a biblical

953

point of view, but what about, say

if you've got a couple, one of them

954

is a Christian, the other isn't.

955

Mm.

956

How does that work?

957

Do they need to just give up

on it or can that still work?

958

Jan Burch: I, I have some experience

in this, not, not personally, but my,

959

um, my parents initially when my mom

became a Christian, my dad wasn't,

960

he believed in God, but he wa he

wouldn't have said he was a Christian.

961

Um, and this was something

that she really struggled in.

962

But the advice, um, the council

that she received at the time, um,

963

from her pastor or, you know, people

that she trusted in the church was

964

to, to really respect her husband.

965

And, um, obviously not to deliberately

go against, violate God's laws or

966

anything, but as much as possible she

needed to, you know, um, listen to

967

her husband and be a, be sort of a.

968

Sympathetic to his needs or,

um, submit to his, his requests.

969

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, there's, um.

970

There's a verse in the Bible one Peter

three, where, um, Peter the Apostle

971

Peter is one of the disciples of Jesus.

972

Um, he talks about this.

973

He's, he's talking to wives specifically,

uh, and you know, being subject to your

974

own husband so that even if some do not

obey the word, they may be one without a

975

word by the conduct of their wives when

they see your respectful and pure conduct.

976

Now, it's an interesting translation,

so let's not get on some word semantics,

977

but it's an interesting idea that, um, we

were talking about it earlier, weren't we?

978

There's a lady called Poly Wigglesworth,

who I think is a great example of this.

979

Um, Polly Wigglesworth was married to

Smith Wigglesworth, and, um, if you dunno

980

who Smith Wigglesworth is, I strongly

recommend you read some of the books

981

about him, because this guy had one

of the most extraordinary ministries.

982

Um, healing Ministries, didn't he?

983

Just incredible miracles, healings,

people being raised from that.

984

All kinds of stuff happened with

Smith Wigglesworth and actually he

985

used to roam around the docks here

in Liverpool for a little while.

986

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

987

And Bradford and stuff like that.

988

He was some great stuff going on.

989

But there was a point for Smith

Wigglesworth where he started

990

to sort of lose his faith.

991

Um, and Polly, his wife, kept going to

church and it, and one night she came

992

back from church quite late, and Smith is

getting more and more agitated by this.

993

And so he says to Polly,

Polly, I know the Bible.

994

I'm the master of this house.

995

I'm the head of this house.

996

I forbid you for going to church.

997

Right.

998

And Polly just looked at Smith

and said, you are not my master.

999

Jesus is my master.

00:55:52,965 --> 00:55:55,125

And it's, it's an

interesting thing, right?

00:55:55,125 --> 00:55:58,275

So this whole thing about headship

that he, again, he misplayed the

00:55:58,455 --> 00:56:00,375

misplaced the card or misplays the card.

00:56:01,950 --> 00:56:04,500

Um, Polly goes to church, right?

00:56:04,500 --> 00:56:07,200

Because she's like, God's told me to go

to church, so I'm gonna go to church.

00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:11,280

So she goes to church and Smith

locks her out the house, right?

00:56:11,850 --> 00:56:19,140

So she sleeps on the doorstep of their

house overnight, and in the morning,

00:56:19,140 --> 00:56:23,400

Smith comes down and he opens the door,

and his wife, who's leaning against the

00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:25,620

door, falls into the kitchen, right?

00:56:26,790 --> 00:56:29,310

If you are the wife, what do you do?

00:56:29,310 --> 00:56:30,180

At this point?

00:56:30,510 --> 00:56:32,160

It's a really interesting question.

00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:37,980

Polly Wigglesworth, who is the most

extraordinary lady, stands up, brushes

00:56:37,980 --> 00:56:42,240

herself down, doesn't say a word

about it, and make Smith breakfast.

00:56:43,110 --> 00:56:45,060

Just give, gives him a kiss on the cheek.

00:56:45,270 --> 00:56:48,150

I mean, I, I dunno the exact details,

but in essence, this is what happened.

00:56:49,050 --> 00:56:52,605

And actually it was that act of.

00:56:53,384 --> 00:56:59,115

Herb winning him over by acting with a

respectful conduct that brought him back

00:56:59,115 --> 00:57:02,805

to Christ and kickstarted one of the

ward's most incredible healing ministries.

00:57:03,375 --> 00:57:11,415

And it was all down to, um, the incredible

humility of this lady, Polly Wigglesworth.

00:57:12,044 --> 00:57:17,835

So, um, I think one Peter three

chapter, one Peter one chapter,

00:57:17,835 --> 00:57:21,345

three verses one through two,

three, whatever it was, I just read.

00:57:21,645 --> 00:57:22,785

They're really good verses to read.

00:57:22,785 --> 00:57:26,685

I think if that's you, if you have an

unbelieving spouse, it's like the Bible

00:57:26,685 --> 00:57:28,424

tells you what to do in that scenario.

00:57:28,995 --> 00:57:32,535

Um, and I think just let

your conduct win them over.

00:57:32,595 --> 00:57:32,774

Sharon Edmundson: Yeah.

00:57:32,779 --> 00:57:33,089

Mm-hmm.

00:57:34,305 --> 00:57:38,595

Yeah, you can, even if the other

person doesn't wanna follow this

00:57:38,595 --> 00:57:42,464

bit, you can definitely do your

bit, um, as far as possible.

00:57:42,495 --> 00:57:45,464

And I think it's, it's always

about asking God for wisdom.

00:57:45,555 --> 00:57:49,755

Um, James one verse five says, if

any of you lacks wisdom, um, he

00:57:49,755 --> 00:57:51,855

should ask God who gives it freely.

00:57:52,125 --> 00:57:54,315

So yeah, it's always a good way to go.

00:57:54,645 --> 00:57:59,145

Um, Heather's put, I think in

relation to the paint selecting,

00:57:59,745 --> 00:58:01,245

just said, this is important to me.

00:58:01,545 --> 00:58:04,245

Um, yeah, certainly not wanted to

make light of that at all, Heather.

00:58:04,634 --> 00:58:05,295

Um, yeah.

00:58:05,295 --> 00:58:09,915

The, the little things sometimes can be

the, the, the massive bits that, yeah.

00:58:10,335 --> 00:58:10,665

Yeah.

00:58:10,694 --> 00:58:12,825

So apologies if it's come across.

00:58:13,005 --> 00:58:13,634

Um, otherwise,

00:58:13,634 --> 00:58:16,484

Matt Edmundson: people that it took 'em

years to redo their kitchen because they

00:58:16,484 --> 00:58:21,615

couldn't agree on how to do the kitchen

and they, because they couldn't agree.

00:58:21,855 --> 00:58:24,375

It was decided, well, we'll

just live with what we've got

00:58:24,674 --> 00:58:25,725

until we can get an agreement.

00:58:25,725 --> 00:58:26,625

It took a long time.

00:58:26,685 --> 00:58:28,275

And you're like, I get it.

00:58:28,275 --> 00:58:30,375

Those things are

important from both sides.

00:58:30,464 --> 00:58:32,535

And, um, you, you've definitely

gotta work through them.

00:58:32,775 --> 00:58:33,945

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:58:34,665 --> 00:58:36,015

Sharon Edmundson: Um,

just noticing the time.

00:58:36,525 --> 00:58:38,715

So any last comments before we go?

00:58:39,405 --> 00:58:39,795

No, just,

00:58:40,245 --> 00:58:44,715

Jan Burch: I think, I think you did

a really good job, Matt, and, um, um,

00:58:44,805 --> 00:58:49,785

yeah, and don't, you know, I don't

want people to feel, or my, my marriage

00:58:49,785 --> 00:58:55,485

isn't the way Matt described and, you

know, it'll never get be like that.

00:58:55,485 --> 00:59:02,115

Well, you know, none of our, no one has a

perfect marriage, um, you know, for sure.

00:59:02,565 --> 00:59:03,105

But.

00:59:04,140 --> 00:59:05,795

With Gods at the center of it.

00:59:05,995 --> 00:59:08,850

I think that was another

key thing that Matt said.

00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:15,420

You know, when God's at the very center,

um, you know that everything else can

00:59:15,420 --> 00:59:17,819

be worked out if you're both willing.

00:59:18,390 --> 00:59:20,819

So, um, don't, don't give up hope.

00:59:21,569 --> 00:59:22,799

You know, there's always hope.

00:59:23,250 --> 00:59:25,200

Um, tomorrow is another day.

00:59:25,860 --> 00:59:29,759

Um, so, you know, I don't

want people to be discouraged.

00:59:29,765 --> 00:59:30,035

Yeah.

00:59:30,930 --> 00:59:31,230

Matt Edmundson: Yeah.

00:59:31,230 --> 00:59:35,279

And I, off the back of that, thank

you, Jan, but I, I would also say.

00:59:35,925 --> 00:59:39,855

If you feel like your spouse is

not doing what they should do,

00:59:39,855 --> 00:59:43,665

based on what I've talked about,

don't send them a copy of this.

00:59:44,265 --> 00:59:44,655

Right.

00:59:44,745 --> 00:59:46,965

With a note saying, you

really should watch this.

00:59:47,055 --> 00:59:48,435

You selfish, so and so.

00:59:49,125 --> 00:59:54,735

Um, I think, um, I, I remember being

in, uh, listening to a talk once

00:59:54,735 --> 00:59:57,405

about marriage and the, the pastor

said, listen, here are the rules.

00:59:57,405 --> 01:00:01,635

Wives, you're not allowed to elbow

your husbands and says is for you.

01:00:01,635 --> 01:00:02,625

You just need to listen.

01:00:03,375 --> 01:00:09,495

Um, uh, but I think, yeah, I think

the Bible gives us an idea of

01:00:09,495 --> 01:00:17,265

what marriage can be and we, we

miss that to a whatever degree.

01:00:17,355 --> 01:00:17,775

Right.

01:00:18,015 --> 01:00:18,465

Um.

01:00:19,815 --> 01:00:22,485

But I think that doesn't

change the will of God.

01:00:22,485 --> 01:00:23,654

And I think there's hope.

01:00:24,015 --> 01:00:27,075

I think there's always hope, and I

think God can do incredible things

01:00:27,464 --> 01:00:30,825

both in your marriage and because of

your marriage, through your marriage.

01:00:31,455 --> 01:00:38,475

Um, and so yeah, I, if you focus

on you and let God change your

01:00:38,475 --> 01:00:42,464

spouse would be my best advice

and, um, and see where it goes.

01:00:43,485 --> 01:00:43,575

Sharon Edmundson: Mm-hmm.

01:00:43,815 --> 01:00:48,795

Yeah, I think, um, one of the encouraging

things about the Bible is it, it both

01:00:48,795 --> 01:00:53,775

describes God's ideal and the way things

were set up, but it also describes some

01:00:53,985 --> 01:00:59,835

very messy situations where God comes

into those messy situations and deals

01:00:59,835 --> 01:01:04,245

with us as imperfect people, which

we all are deals with our imperfect

01:01:04,245 --> 01:01:10,305

situations and can work through all of

them, and, um, promises that he will

01:01:10,305 --> 01:01:15,944

lead us and guide us, and that he's a God

that redeems so many difficult things.

01:01:15,944 --> 01:01:18,165

So yeah, hopefully.

01:01:18,525 --> 01:01:21,585

Hopefully everybody's found some

sort of encouragement here tonight.

01:01:22,185 --> 01:01:23,654

Um, yeah.

01:01:23,654 --> 01:01:25,485

So we'll finish a discussion for tonight.

01:01:25,485 --> 01:01:26,384

What have we got next week?

01:01:27,495 --> 01:01:29,775

Matt Edmundson: Next week is Dan.

01:01:29,985 --> 01:01:34,785

Uh, you're talking about conflict,

how to argue clean, right?

01:01:34,875 --> 01:01:36,194

How to argue, clean and fair.

01:01:36,615 --> 01:01:38,535

So that's what we're

talking about next week.

01:01:38,924 --> 01:01:40,785

Uh, that's gonna be with Dan.

01:01:41,475 --> 01:01:44,235

Um, I would love to tell you

who's hosting, but I genuine.

01:01:44,235 --> 01:01:45,525

Do you know who's hosting next week?

01:01:46,335 --> 01:01:46,515

No.

01:01:46,515 --> 01:01:46,935

Me either.

01:01:46,995 --> 01:01:47,685

I can't remember.

01:01:47,955 --> 01:01:48,404

Sharon Edmundson: It changes.

01:01:48,404 --> 01:01:48,765

Anyway,

01:01:48,890 --> 01:01:51,255

Matt Edmundson: it, it does,

'cause it should have been two

01:01:51,255 --> 01:01:52,515

different people hosting tonight.

01:01:52,515 --> 01:01:54,795

So thank you ladies for

stepping into the breach.

01:01:55,424 --> 01:01:59,805

Um, but yeah, uh, Dan's gonna

be talking about conflict, so

01:01:59,835 --> 01:02:01,335

marriage part three if you like.

01:02:01,335 --> 01:02:02,985

And again, there'll be

something for everybody, even

01:02:02,985 --> 01:02:04,065

if you're not, not married.

01:02:04,065 --> 01:02:05,745

So do come join us for that.

01:02:05,865 --> 01:02:06,635

Um, so yeah, that's next week.

01:02:07,725 --> 01:02:07,905

Sharon Edmundson: Yeah.

01:02:07,905 --> 01:02:10,755

So we have finished for tonight, but

if you'd like to connect with us, we've

01:02:10,755 --> 01:02:15,555

got, uh, Google meets now, um, straight

after this, just for a few minutes.

01:02:15,555 --> 01:02:19,305

If you wanna come and say hi, um,

get to actually chat to us in person.

01:02:19,605 --> 01:02:22,215

So thanks for joining us and

hope to see you next week.