32. Building a Career in Curriculum Development with Jasmine Gibson

Lily

Jasmine Gibson is the editorial project manager for the Educator Forever Agency and a curriculum coach for our Curriculum Development Foundations Program. She started her career as a kindergarten and first grade teacher with one of her very first placements in my classroom many many years ago.

Lily

And she then transitioned outside of the classroom to work as an educational consultant with expertise in early elementary education, editing and curriculum design. Her passions include incorporating nature and art into everyday learning environments, infusing diverse children's literature across subjects and creating accessible learning platforms.

Lily

Welcome, Jasmine, I'm so glad to have you on the podcast.

Jasmine

Thanks so much. I'm really glad to be here.

Lily

Yay. Well, we were just talking before recording about how our paths have crossed many times in our journey inside and outside of the classroom. So I would love for you to take us on your journeya s an educator. I know that's a very big question. But tell us a little bit of how you got started in education and through to what you do now.

Jasmine

Yeah, so I actually started in education, I think as a teenager. I used to teach swimming lessons to little kids. And then I worked at a lot of summer camps, and always really enjoyed it. And my very first semester in college, as a freshman, I took an education class where I volunteered in the classroom.

Jasmine

And I had a great time. And it was like, Oh, I'm totally going to become a teacher. This is great. And then I just didn't. So I went a different direction. But through that, I actually started doing a lot of outdoor education. And I really enjoyed it.

Jasmine

But I found that I would do these week long trips with kids, and especially middle schoolers, and I really enjoyed it. And it was like, Oh, this is so great. And the minute that I started really feeling like we were making connections, and like building our community, the trip would be over. And so I did that for a couple years. And finally, I was like, I think I just need to circle back and become a teacher.

Jasmine

So I went back to school for my teaching credential in California, which is how we met and started teaching in your classroom. And from then I taught kindergarten and first grade in a couple of different classrooms for about six, six years, I think, or seven years before fully transitioning out of the classroom. So that's sort of the medium length answer.

Lily

Yes, that's awesome. And Jasmine, yeah, as you said, started, as I guess it was assistant teacher, is that what it was called? In my classroom when I was teaching kindergarten and first grade, and it was amazing having her in the classroom and seeing her shine as a teacher. So it's awesome to hear kind of the before. And then what about when you made that decision to leave?

Jasmine

Yeah, so it's interesting, I didn't really go from like teaching full time to full time contracting. And I was talking about that this morning when I was thinking through this podcast. So when I was teaching, both of the schools that I taught at primarily, had really flexible curriculum models. And teachers were expected to write a lot of the curriculum.

Jasmine

Which I think was a struggle for many people, but I actually really liked that part of it, because it allowed me to be really creative. I went to a lot of really interesting trainings, including the Harvard Project Zero training, and through that, I was like, wow, I really like writing curriculum.

Jasmine

And so it was one of those things that I was already doing as a teacher in the classroom. And I was supporting other teachers at my school who maybe weren't as excited about it or weren't as comfortable doing it. And so through that, I had a couple of different opportunities to do freelance work while I was still in the classroom, like early on.

Jasmine

And so I started working at a couple companies. One was an ed tech company that you kind of hook me up with where I was doing more of like item driven work, I guess, where we're, you know, a lot of assessments, very short projects. You know, I did it maybe five hours a week.

Jasmine

And then I also started instructing and writing curriculum for the Girls Leadership Institute, which was more of an after school program, and it was outside of the classroom, and a lot of it was on the weekends. So I was doing these like little freelance projects while I was in the classroom. And I did that for a couple years.

Jasmine

And so I sort of was like, Oh, this is interesting. And I liked doing this, but I was primarily teaching. And as I did that for a couple years, I decided, like, Oh, this is interesting. I'd like to do more of it. And it sort of coincided with the birth of my first child. And so when he was born, he was born in May, and I obviously already had the summer off.

Jasmine

And so I sort of thought, like, well, maybe I'll take the fall off, and I'll see if I can freelance for the fall and how it feels. And if I really want to go back to the classroom, freelancing isn't working for me, then I can go back in January. And if it does, then maybe I'll try it out for a year. So I went ahead and did that. And over the fall, I really hustled and got a couple more contracts and started really writing curriculum and really liked it, and I just never went back.

Lily

That's awesome. I mean, I think that is similar to how I got started too. I mean, everybody's situation is different. But it is really awesome when you can try things out while having the security of being a classroom teacher.

Lily

And I think it's funny sometimes how it's like you reflected on even though it was like you were supposed to create curriculum as a classroom teacher, and it seems so extra and like all this other stuff that we have to do, but then actually, it's like, amazing, and also how you learn how to do something.

Lily

So I think either whether you're taking on work on the side, or learning something new while being a classroom teacher, even though it feels like a lot, it actually can be totally worth it.

Jasmine

Yeah, and I think you can really, like use those skills, right? Like, we've talked about this before, but it's like, not only curriculum writing, but like coaching, right? Like, I've done a lot of coaching for teachers. And that started in my classroom, right? Like I, I participated in the same program that I went through, but as a teacher, where I had, you know, student teachers in my classroom, and I started coaching them.

Jasmine

And then through that, you know, there'll be new teachers at my school, and I offered to be, you know, their in house coach. And so there's also those opportunities that can come to you when you're out of school, and it's maybe not part of your job, but it's sort of like, does anyone want to do this thing, or here's this opportunity?

Jasmine

And you can think about that, like, Yeah, that's really interesting. And maybe I'd like it. But also, I could use that later. And that might really be a skill or something that I can add to my resume or my experience, or I can make these connections, and then it can, it can lead me in other areas. So I think you're right.

Lily

Yeah, awesome. So I know you kind of hinted at some of the things that you've done outside of the classroom in curriculum whether it be items or lesson plans. Are there any other kind of buckets of curriculum that you've dabbled in?

Jasmine

Yeah, and so this, I was thinking about this this morning. So I feel like I've done kind of everything, and it's helped. Like, I can talk through what that looks like. But it's been really helpful, because I said yes to everything in the beginning, right, like in the beginning of this, especially when I wasn't teaching anymore.

Jasmine

And I was really trying to supplement the income that my wife was bringing in. You know, I wanted to say like, yeah, of course, I'll do this one. Yes, I'll do this one. Yes, I'll do this one. So I tried a lot of different things. And through that, I've been able to say like, oh, here's what I really liked doing. Here's what I'm really good at doing. And here are the kinds of things that I might say no to.

Jasmine

But in the beginning, you know, I said yes, to all the things because I didn't really know. And I also needed the work. And so you know, you sort of like, you don't want to be so choosy in the beginning, that you cut yourself off from opportunities, but then you also can kind of hone in on what you really like.

Jasmine

So yeah, I've done, you know, high level edits and overviews of existing curriculum where it was like a copyright update for math for a full grade level. And it was, you know, a year long project, I've done a lot of professional development, where I'm training other teachers on new and existing curriculum.

Jasmine

And so I, for the last couple years, I've done that on like a monthly basis where I'm, you know, training 60, or 70, teachers in a grade level, via zoom, or like distance learning. I have taken things that are existing in a text format, and translated them on to a digital format. So writing storyboards, and translating things and sort of gamifying them so that it goes from like, this is something that a teacher teaches you in a school to something that a student could do at home.

Jasmine

And I think a lot of that a lot of things changed with COVID in the last couple years, I think there's a lot of curriculum companies that had great teacher based resources that are trying to translate their stuff to a student more of a student focus, right. And so there's a lot of opportunities, I think, for teachers now or people who want to get into education writing and work that you could do that kind of work.

Jasmine

Where they're saying, like, here's an existing product, how do we make it more student facing, I've done a lot of editing, so taking, you know, other people's work and going through different checklists, and, you know, Adobe editing and all of that, and then some project management as well, where I'm, you know, coming from a project from the, from the beginning, and, and helping organize other writers. And, you know, going from those, those pieces, so all over the place.

Lily

So many things, and I feel like all those things, too. Like I didn't know they existed outside of the classroom when I was teaching. And so I love how you reflected on just saying yes to things of just like, Yes, I'll do this. Yes, we'll do this. Yes, I'll do this.

Lily

And I'm curious of kind of how did you learn how to do these things? Was it through that process of just saying yes, and I guess did any feelings come up through that process? I know, somebody's saying yes to something and being like, oh my gosh, maybe I don't know how to do this. Any advice you'd give people with those kind of things?

Jasmine

Yeah. So a lot of it I didn't know how to do I think that I am a person who doesn't mind making mistakes. Like I'm not a perfectionist. And I think that's really served me well, actually. Because if I spent all of the time to make something really perfect, I don't think I would do very well in being a freelance writer or editor or any of these things, right? Because you sort of have to just try something, get feedback and then revise as needed.

Jasmine

So I think part of it was knowing that like, I know content really, really well. And I started out really saying yes to things that were K-2 because I was like this is my expert area I, I know this I know the Common Core standards, I know the California standards. I know the NGSS, I can really say yes and feel confident about that.

Jasmine

And so I did that for a couple years of like really only saying yes to K-2. And through that different projects that I would have, maybe there would be things like I didn't know how to use Adobe, or I didn't know how to use Canva. Or I didn't know how to, you know, Google Docs, I was like, Yeah, I kind of know how to use this or Excel.

Jasmine

And so I would just learn through the project. So some of it was training, I think from the, you know, editors of project managers, and just being willing to say, like, I can read these directions really closely. And I asked a lot of questions. And I think that's something really important, you have to be willing to say like, Hey, I don't understand this, what does this mean? Or I'm going to try this. Did I do it right?

Jasmine

You know, and I, what I've realized is a lot of people don't mind helping you like, if you're being honest and you're saying like, Yeah, I think I followed your directions, or this is really unclear. They're very happy to come back and say, like, oh, actually, we want it to look like this, or here's an example. You know, can you do it again. And so if you don't mind getting that sort of constructive feedback, then you can learn a lot of a lot of skills.

Jasmine

And I think that's kind of goes along with my advice, right? Like, I think that if you're able to sort of take yourself out of it, and not take feedback personally, then you're gonna do a lot better, right? You're gonna say, like, I may not know exactly how to do all of these things. But I know that I can learn, and I know that I can redirections very thoroughly, and I can ask a lot of questions, and I, you know, can go and do you know, trainings on my own.

Jasmine

Then that's really all you need to be able to do. Whereas if you go in saying, like, well, I don't know how to do this, or I'm not going to be good at it, then that's just gonna shut you off from a lot of opportunities.

Lily

Absolutely. Or that perfectionism too, I'm like, Alright, I'm gonna do it. And I'm gonna do it perfectly, but it's gonna take me 20 hours to write a lesson, and it's not gonna be fun.

Jasmine

Well, it's not sustainable, right? Like, no one's paying you enough to do that, right? And they don't want you to spend 20 hours on it, either.

Lily

No, absolutely. And so I think, knowing that you can learn through doing it. And it's freeing, I think, to be able to be like, alright, like, I'm gonna get feedback, and I'm gonna make it better. It doesn't have to be perfect. But like, I know that I can implement feedback, I know, I can learn new things.

Lily

So I'm gonna have a growth mindset and like, try and figure things out through doing it, and definitely a more sustainable way of going about things and learning new things. It actually reminded me of like, what we were talking about at the beginning of our conversation of learning about curriculum, while classroom teaching, same thing, it's like learning something you don't know, while doing it can be such an asset.

Jasmine

Yeah, exactly. And I mean, that was something I really loved about the schools that I taught at. You know, I had a lot of freedom and flexibility. And so I would say, Oh, I really want to learn, I really want to do this, like ocean unit. And that's super cool. I don't know all of the science behind different parts of the ocean or ocean conservation or about these animals.

Jasmine

So it's like you do research and you find experts, and you bring people in. And so I think you just have to kind of go at it with the same perspective, right? Like, I may not know exactly how to do this, it's interesting to me, I want to learn. So I'm gonna figure out how to do that.

Lily

Absolutely. And we are lucky enough to have you now on our Educator Forever Agency as our editorial project manager where you manage many different curriculum projects. And I'm wondering if you can tell people kind of about the work you do now.

Jasmine

Yeah, so I feel like a lot of the work I do now sort of brings together all of the things I talked about before. So one of it, you know, we do a lot of brainstorming together about possible projects, and how projects might look. And the templates we're going to use in the organization behind that.

Jasmine

When we have a project that we're going forward with, we might be meeting with clients or stakeholders and talking to them about their vision and what they need and what they want, what information they have. And then, you know, part of my job is then coming up with the systems behind that.

Jasmine

So I, you know, make the spreadsheets and I figure out, okay, what do we need to write? What information do I already have for the writers for bringing on writers and setting everything up for them, and then, you know, bringing those writers on providing training, if needed, on that project and information, checking in with them.

Jasmine

And then I think a lot of it too, is, is a little bit of coaching, right? Where you're saying like, Okay, I'm going to edit this lesson plan, I'm gonna give you a lot of feedback on it. So you can kind of see what we need for this particular project. You can make your work better, we bring it on, and then give it to a client. And if the client says like, oh, yeah, this is great, or actually, I need to change this, then coming back and making those changes.

Jasmine

And that actually brings me to to another piece of advice I would say to somebody thinking about this kind of work is, you know, especially in the beginning, if you're doing freelance work for other organizations, or companies, like letting go of thinking like the ownership idea, like if you write a lesson plan, instead of thinking like, Oh, this is my lesson plan, and I'm gonna write it the way that I would imagine teaching it and it's exactly the way I want it.

Jasmine

You don't want to do that, right? Because every company or organization or school that you're working with, is going to have a very different idea of what that might look like. And so it's really helpful to let go of that. and say like, I'm doing this for you. So what do you need? What are you looking for? How do you teach? What background and knowledge and standards and whatever those things look like, and really like writing for them.

Jasmine

And knowing that once it's written, you're letting it go. And you're like, yep, that's great. I feel really good about this. And it's for you. And so I think that's really different than if you were starting your own business and saying, like, I'm creating something that I'm gonna sell, and it's got my name attached to it. And it's, it's mine.

Jasmine

And so that's been really helpful too where you're, like that idea of perfectionism, right? You're saying, like, I'm making it, it may not be exactly what I would do if this was my product, but that's okay because I'm doing it for the specifications of somebody else.

Lily

Yes. So interesting. And I think it's true, you know, a being and that's different for being a classroom teacher, also, where it's like, we're teaching lessons, how works for us and how it works for our students. And so getting kind of out of that mindset, of course, that informs everything we do of what happened in the classroom and all of our classroom experience.

Lily

But it's not exactly the same. Like it's not for your use only. For a broader audience. Yeah, definitely. Awesome. So we've kind of talked about this a little bit, but I'm curious if there's anything else professionally or personally that you've learned from working beyond the classroom?

Jasmine

Yeah, I mean, I think this goes along with what you said earlier about advice for teachers, because I think it's, it sort of goes together. So I think one thing that I learned was that it was really helpful to start early and start in the classroom. And the other thing that I've really learned is that it's really important to leverage your network.

Jasmine

So you know, a lot of people and they're doing a lot of really interesting things. And so you know, one thing, most teachers don't have a LinkedIn account, like, make a LinkedIn account and connect with everybody, you know, that are in the education world, and talk to people and tell them that you're open to work. And you're curious about these different kinds of projects.

Jasmine

So I think that's been really helpful. And I would say, especially, you know, coming into this, almost like seven years later that I've been doing it full time. Network is really important. And that's, you know, how I get a lot of contracts and jobs and, and the work that I do now.

Jasmine

The other thing I would say is like thinking about if it works for you. So, you know, for me, it was really helpful that I had done it for a while before really transitioning full time outside of the classroom. And I knew that I liked that kind of work. And it was interesting to me, and it worked with my personality and my lifestyle, I was also lucky enough to have a spouse who was working full time and provides us with insurance, so I don't have to worry about that.

Jasmine

So that's been, you know, if I was in a different situation, maybe that wouldn't work. And I think also thinking about your personality, right? Like, I feel pretty, I'm lucky, I'm flexible, it's okay with me if things are a little bit inconsistent, because I plan things out in advance. So I might have a really slow month or a really busy month, and it all sort of balances.

Jasmine

But there's an amount of risk tolerance for that. Right? Like, it can feel really risky. And it would be really different if I was saying like, Oh, I'm quitting my teaching job. I don't really have contracts lined up and like, Am I okay with that? Like, is that going to work for me? Is that going to stress me out? Because if I was a different kind of person, that might be really stressful.

Jasmine

And so I think, you know, there's, it's good that there's not it's not just freelance contract jobs, right. Like, there's a lot of people I know, who went from the classroom and decided that they didn't have that kind of risk tolerance, but they really liked writing curriculum. And so they got full time jobs in, you know, Ed Tech, or curriculum writing or, you know, that sort of thing.

Jasmine

So I think just thinking through those things, like what does that look like for you? Is it something that's going to work for you, and trying it out. Like, I mean, I really, I really do feel strongly that trying it out while I was in the classroom was the most helpful thing.

Lily

Mm hmm. And I would even say, trying things out beyond the classroom, too. Sometimes you don't really know what your personnel how your personality fits in with these different opportunities. So maybe you would try out the contract work and be like, Oh, actually, I need something more consistent. Like this doesn't work for me, or vice versa.

Lily

Like trying out something full time be like, actually, I want way more flexibility, and freedom and control over what I'm doing. So I think again, it's not like the decision you make right away has to lock you in forever. Like, it's just the next step that you're deciding. And through that you can build your path.

Jasmine

Yeah. And I think too also just having support, right, like, I was really lucky that I had you and I had other people in my life, who were also doing these kinds of things.

Jasmine

And I think that's a really nice thing about that, like our, you know, Beyond the Classroom Course, and all of the courses that Educator Forever has, because it provides you with this community of support, where you're not like, oh, my gosh, I'm alone and I don't know what to do. And I don't know how to do this because it can be really scary to try something new.

Jasmine

And I think it's really easy to feel locked in as a teacher and say, like, I'm a teacher, and that's, that's what I am like, I went to school to become a teacher. The only jobs I've had, you know, I've been in the classroom. And it's easy to, like, have that very limited mindset of like, it's I'm just a teacher, where you're not just a teacher, right?

Jasmine

Like you what you said earlier, you have all of these other skills and you're practicing and doing them all the time. And so I think it's really helpful to have, you know, a community whether that's a friend or colleagues or you join a course, but to really talk through that and feel like, you know, you have other people to to show your resume and bounce ideas off of and build that network.

Lily

Yes, community is so key and just to know what's possible. Yeah, I remember when I first started doing work out of the classroom just being like, is this a thing? People do this, like, who does this? And so just seeing other models, and so even if you're not the one taking on all the different opportunities, you can see like, Oh, my friend did this. Would I be interested in doing this? And learn through other people's experiences as well.

Jasmine

Yeah, aboslutely. I think that that was super helpful for me. And seeing like, you know, oh, wow, that's a really interesting job you have and how did you get that? And what do you do? What? What kind of skills do you need?

Lily

Yes, absolutely. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for sharing about all of your wonderful experience with us. Is there anything else you'd like to add or share as a final thought?

Jasmine

Yeah, I think just don't be afraid to try. You know, like you said, like, it might be something that's really great for you and work and it may not be and either way, it's okay. Like there's no harm in trying and I think just being open to try new things, is just, you know, a really great place to go.

Lily

I love that. Absolutely. And you don't know until you try, so you don't have to commit to it. Just try it out. See what happens. Yes. Awesome. Well, thanks again. Jasmine.

Jasmine

Yeah, thank you, Lily.

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