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How to Sleep Better with The Sleep Mums' Cat & Sarah
Episode 9820th April 2023 • How Not to Screw Up Your Kids • Dr Maryhan
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Sleep and routines are probably the two biggest challenges we want answers to as parents regardless of how old our children are! Cat and Sarah's approach is refreshingly honest and super practical so you're in for a treat.

Listen to The Sleep Mums podcast

Buy the book 'Sleep Better Baby'


Here are the highlights: 

(02:45) Do you have a routine or not? 

(08:37) Every child has different needs 

(10:46) The difference between babies and children 

(15:11) Routine is like a crib sheet 

(17:44) Don’t get sucked into comparison 

(23:26) How to help older children settle 

(26:23) How to make sure you get enough sleep 

(32:11) Is there a difference between men and women’s sleep? 

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To access the free resources mentioned in the episodes visit https://drmaryhan.com/library  

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Transcripts

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Hello, and welcome to the how not to screw up your

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kids podcast. So pour yourself a cuppa, find a comfy seat and

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enjoy the conversation. This is episode 98. And I get to

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interview the incredible cat and Sara of sleep mums. Now, what I

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love about the conversation that we had is that actually the idea

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was that we were going to talk about routines to routine or not

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to routine. But it was just such an easy conversation we went all

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over the place. We talked about sleep, we talked about routines.

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And what is so incredible about cat and Sara is that they're

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both experts in their field cat keybie is a BBC broadcaster

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Sarah Carpenter's a sleep expert. But they're also mums.

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And they're vulnerable, honest mums about the challenges of

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parenting, the challenges of whether we routine or we don't

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routine, about sleep about the characteristics that we bring

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into our journey as parents. And so adjust. It was such a lovely

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conversation. And I think there's some really helpful

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insights even for me with older children. And the work that I do

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with families, I got so much out of it. So I really hope that you

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enjoy this podcast. Now as ever, if you enjoy the episode, I

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would love it if you could follow and review the podcast so

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that others can find us and we can spread the love. We do share

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details for cat and Sara. So you if you want to go off and listen

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to their podcast episodes, which are incredible, then we've got

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the link as also the link to their books. So until next time,

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here's cat and Sarah.

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Well, I am so excited, because we're talking sleep, but we're

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talking sleep from the experts. Okay, so this is going to be a

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monumentally helpful podcast episode, I'm joined by cat and

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Sara's sleep mums. Oh, goodness me. I'm in slight fandom here.

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So welcome, welcome.

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Thank you so much for having us. Oh, I'm so excited. We're going

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to be talking. And I'm going to sort of put it broadly. And then

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I'm going to sort of drill down with some more questions. But I

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think this real interesting question around routine, or not

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to routine. So you come home with this tiny little baby

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bundle? And I'm I'm guessing sleep is probably one of the

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first massive challenges that we have around this. And there

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seems to be these real, very distinct camps of Do you

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routine? Or do you not routine? So I've got a bit of a broad

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question, but what are your thoughts? So I think, you know,

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it comes up at different points. And I don't think it is one

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simple answer. There are times in baby's life that you are

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going to routine and times that you're not going to routine. And

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there's also times that you'll find that your routine hang

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without realizing that you've been knitting. So it's not

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something that you need to make a conscious decision about until

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you think, Okay, this isn't working. And now I need to make

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a change. And then we're going to make a conscious decision to

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do something to make this change. But I genuinely I

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actually hate the idea that people come home with a brand

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new baby and panic that they have to do teen. Yeah, I think

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there's so much going on. When you you first come home, as you

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say and you know, the last thing really you should be thinking

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about is getting yourself into a stringent routine. If that's not

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for you, but for some parents, actually that gives them some

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comfort. Do you think that this whole notion of routine or not

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to routine comes is driven by our knee? You know, I am quite

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an ordered individual, I get safety from being a control

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enthusiast. So does routine, Is it driven by us more? Or does it

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tend to then be driven by the child? I think if I was going

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both?

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I think for some people who love a routine like cat, then I think

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it can be driven by the parent. But equally for some people who

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really don't think they like routine, just by meeting baby's

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needs. You are a new routine. So that that side of it that more

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gentle routine side, I suppose is dictated by baby. Yeah, I

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think there is an element of control and that's why I say for

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some parents, they might find comfort in it because, you know,

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in the early days of parenthood, you feel a little bit lost at

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sea Castaway, what do I do? And so the idea of okay, these

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things have to happen this time, can give you a little bit of

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comfort, it can make you feel sort of

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More anchored into what you're doing or make you feel like

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you're doing a good job because, you know, to some extent that

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your your meeting needs. But yeah, of course, the the needs

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are the babies. So it's also them that is creating the

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routine. And I love the way that you talked about that routine as

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well, both of you this idea that, you know, the routine is

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dictated by you meeting the child's needs. Whereas I think

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quite often, well, I don't know about you, but I tend to think

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of routine being and they'll go to bed at this time, and they

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will, then we'll do this, then we'll do that. But actually,

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just by meeting our baby's needs, and our child's needs,

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were actually creating a routine. Definitely. So I wonder

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if we need to change, I think the more some of the most

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important parts of the routine are, we would say are the

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bookends of the day, the start and the end, and then sort of

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how it how it gets created. And within that, obviously, is

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whether you're talking about a baby or a child is to do with

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feeds and sleep. But those those if you have those two points in

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the day where you can keep consistent, that's kind of the

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most important thing, would you say then that that's probably

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the best starting point, and then allowing that fluidity in

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the middle. And then there comes an age when it's the best

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starting point to have your start of the day and end of the

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day. But I don't think you can have that when you've got a

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newborn new newborn, that does come with time. But yes, that's

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it is definitely the best way to then have hooks throughout your

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day to start from, I think initially, when you first bring

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your baby home, your hooks are your feeds, because that is the

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most important thing far more important than anything as

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feeding your baby. So if you've got your feeds, and a sort of

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scheduled pattern, then everything else is going to

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naturally come in around that. And you don't need to think

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about anything else at that stage is feeding as the key

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thing. I think a lot of parents are you said, you know, you

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think about sleep at the very beginning, like Oh, my God,

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what's, what am I going to do? And I'm so tired. But as Sara

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says, The best piece of advice that I think Sarah gives is, you

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know, focus on the feeds, and then everything else will fall

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into place at the beginning. You know, that's the important

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thing. And then you can worry about all the other stuff and

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sleep later. That's such a different shift, isn't it in the

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way that you're thinking? Because actually, if you're

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thinking about the feeding, that's a whole different

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ballgame, then Oh, my goodness, me, they're barely sleeping.

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It's a what does that do to our behavior, and then our

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expectations, and then how things naturally progress that

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shift. I think it massively alleviate stress and anxiety and

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parents when they switch that focus, because sleep isn't

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something that you can achieve without all the other boxes

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being tagged. So if you go in thinking, Okay, I've got to get

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my baby to sleep. Of course, your anxiety levels are rising,

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and you know, you you panic, and that's it just escalates very,

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very quickly. Whereas if you give a new parent, the focus of

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feeding, they can achieve that, whether that's, you know,

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whatever form of feeding they decide to choose or as dictated

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by the baby's needs, they can achieve that feat. And that is

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key to then calming everybody down, relieving the anxiety and

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giving them a focus that they can achieve.

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I think I've just had a bit of a hard moment. I'm a big Oprah

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fan. So that's hence the old. Uh huh. Okay, so I'm also guessing

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that different children, our own children, siblings will have

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different needs around food. And so actually by focusing our

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attention on feeding, we don't get caught in the trap that Oh,

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my eldest sister sleeps straight through the night. What am I

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doing wrong with my middle one or my youngest? Is that right?

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Definitely. 100% 100% and every you're totally right, you know,

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every baby's needs are different, and how the except

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those needs be met. But the feeding is the one thing that

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everybody can do and has to do and some form and it just, you

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know, you it takes that comparison away, because you're

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taking that box.

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And I'm guessing we understand that our children I've got in it

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my daughter used to love having fish pie when she was little and

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my child did my son did not. But actually when you think that

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compat that sort of tastebuds we were quite okay with that,

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aren't we the differences? That's a much better framing of

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things than this. This child doesn't sleep and that one when

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the focus shifts to this idea about feeding. There's also a

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lot of more conversation around sleep needs. I

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think these days as well. Generally we're talking about

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you know, older older children too. But the sleep needs of a

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baby can vary as much as the the tastebuds if you like of the

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fish pie in the north of fish by

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yes a tot, because obviously, what quite often happens is we

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come home we've got we've bought books, we've reading books,

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we're looking at how much sleep we think our child needs, or, or

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what how much sleep, the book is telling us to do, how much

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variability is there around children's sleep patterns that

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we need to sort of be accepting really early on, rather than

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getting caught in that comparison of maybe our

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antenatal friends whose babies are sleeping through the night?

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There's huge differences there. You know, I think I actually did

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a post recently on social media about this, and in a roundabout

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about the sort of social media

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around about the six to nine month mark, babies, the

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difference in sleep over 24 hours can be between four and

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six hours. So when you when you actually say that to a parent,

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you know, suddenly, it's like a light bulb moment for them. So

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your cookie. So Jimmy down the road that sleeping 12 hours a

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night, that's because that's what that particular Jimmy

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needs. But Jimmy up the road, who's only sleeping 10 hours a

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night, it's not wrong, it's not too little. It's just the sleep

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needs are so drastically different. And they can also be

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split so drastically different across the day. So between your

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naps, and you've overnight, as long as you still are your baby

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still meeting those needs, it can show and such a variety of

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ways and could they can be met and very, very different ways.

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Throughout the DNA. Are those differences in needs? Met? Are

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those because of temperament? What what are the things that

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that create these big variations in sleep needs. So just like you

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and I, you know, I mean, compare Kat and I, for example, our

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sleep needs are worlds apart.

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I need a good eight hours. And I'm happy with a broken for. So

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for baby extreme.

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But, you know, babies also babies and children have those

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needs. I mean, between our six children alone, there, the sleep

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needs for those six children are just drastically varied. And

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that actually would be really interesting to do a bit of a

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graph or something because our children over you know, we've

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got four children who overlap and each is quite closely. So I

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have the sacks to actually compare those sleep needs. Now

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they're all being May, every every single child is getting

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what they need. But that varies drastically, I think there's a

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thing around needs as well in that some of them can be a bit

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interchangeable. You know, when when we're very tired, we we can

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help. You know, it's about fuel, you know, so the main main needs

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that you need to meet for a baby or for a child. And for another

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really, although they do get more complex, essentially. But

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you know, you're talking about sleep needs, their feeds, or

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solids needs and their stimulation, and that's active

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play and rest as well. And so those needs can, there can be a

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bit of interaction between them, obviously, you know, sometimes

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having food is stimulation is as well, it can fulfill a different

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part of it. Sometimes, when you're very tired, you need

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something to eat. Sometimes if you're very hungry, if you have

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a nap, it will help you know that isn't quite as always so

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clear cut. And we often talk when parents are trying to drop

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naps or, or if they're trying to keep their kids awake or

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something they can you can use food to help them through that.

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And that is because some of those needs can be

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interchangeable. You just obviously don't want to change

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them up too much. Like I know Sarah knows I've said this

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before, but my eldest, whenever she's going to bed, she always

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says she's hungry. And I'm like, You're not hungry, you're tired.

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It's your your brain is telling you that you need something and

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it's sleep. I promise you you've had you've had dinner, you've

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had supper, you're definitely hungry. And it is, but she

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confuses those needs in her head, I think and we do as well.

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We know if you've maybe had a big night out. doesn't happen

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too often now. Or if you are very tired when you've got a

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small baby that you will reach for food or maybe a coffee or

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something to try and fulfill that need of sleep that you're

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lacking. That that's so interesting about that confusion

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between that need and the fact that you say that it can be very

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individual, whether that stimulation whether that food

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then ends up becoming a stimulation and actually keeps

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you awake or whether it's then used as the

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At sleeping, how do we begin to tune into what our child needs

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so that we're responding to that rather than what we think we

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should be doing. In some ways, that's where our routine comes

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in handy, because it is kind of like having a crib sheet to

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those needs. And so if you start off with a routine, you then

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start to let you know if we're talking about babies, obviously,

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it depends on the age of your child. But if you if you have a

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baby and you start with a routine, then you can start to

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learn their cues and what they're trying to tell you,

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because you have that crib sheet. And then you can kind of

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learn more and go off book if you like, and go a bit kind of

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renegade and Chuck away the routine because you are more in

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tune with what they need. Because you've been able to hone

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that by by fulfilling their needs, through a routine, it was

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really important to have those off piece days, because that

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builds everybody's confidence as well. And because baby is so in

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tune with the routine, they will still meet their needs, they

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might be a little bit varied, you know, they may not nap as

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long as you're out and about and things like that. But actually

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have enough peace days means that everybody's confidence

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rises, it means that you can go on holiday, you can go away, you

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can do all these things and be confident, not be worried.

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Everyone's needs are being met, and everything goes smoothly. So

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a routine is great. But falling out of the routine is also a

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really big positive.

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Do you see a lot of parents becoming anxious around routine

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and then not going off piste because of that does that is

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that? Is there an element of actually do you know what I just

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don't want to disturb this?

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Cat and so this one?

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Um, I think it's quite interest. Just kind of going back to what

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you said in that about we were talking about control right at

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the start. I think if you go from, you know, some people have

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very controlled jobs before they become parents. Or maybe they

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don't maybe they are the opposite. And then they become a

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parent and they sort of feel that they need to rein that back

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in. And yeah, I would hold my hands up i floundered. I felt

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like I floundered so much at the start once I did get a routine,

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and and it worked for us as a family, I was absolutely

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terrified of letting that go. And it has taken probably well,

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I know it has taken three children, and a lot of

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counseling from Sierra to give me the confidence to be more

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flexible with in those things. And yeah, I think you can

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massively get in a rut because quite often when you do go off

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routine, when you have been following one, it will go to

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it's up. And that then gives you the fear. And actually what I

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didn't realize at the time was that that was okay. And that I

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would be able to pull it back. But I suppose until and I've

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talked about this a lot. If you're the main caregiver is

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often new that takes the brunt of that. And so if you've got

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something that's working for you, you can be very reluctant

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to give that up. And that's just my own experience.

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So did you want to add anything to that?

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No, I think, you know, it's something that we see a lot of,

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and, you know, I probably struggled to remember what I was

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like, actually, when I first became a mom, I know that

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routine was important to me. I feel like my memory is over, I

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was quite flexible within my routine. But if you ask somebody

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else, I probably was an M, you know, I would have had my panics

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as well. But as it's something that I talk to parents about a

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lot. And when I'm working with people, I generally work with

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them for a month. And within that month, I make people do

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things so I make them do an out and about nap, I make them go

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out for dinner, Chai make them go away for a night. So you have

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to really support that anxiety recognizer and help them to do

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it. But it's definitely very common.

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And it is going back to what Kat was saying, it's being able to

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recognize the characteristics of you as an individual. And it may

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well be that you've you've come from a job where you're used to

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routine, you're used to knowing what to expect, and maybe you

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quite liked the free flow that happens initially. But also it

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can be that you're then actively seeking that because it's so

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much so inherently part of who you are.

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So I think that that's it being able to kind of recognize that

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and I know that you both advocate a lot for this notion

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that no routines look the same in different families. How do we

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avoid being sucked into comparison?

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God, I wish we had the answer.

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You know that we

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we talk about that a lot. Don't we? Like we'd love it. If

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Parents could just support each other if they stopped shame. And

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if they stopped comparing, that would be the dream. But yeah,

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any ideas from anyone else we take. I just, I think that that

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mantra of not my monkeys not not my circus, and you know, to

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focus on yourself and and what you're doing. And what we

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believe, really is that that comes down to having confidence

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in what you're doing. Because then if you're confident in what

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you're doing, you're able to go okay, that's for them. And this

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is for me. And so massively what we focus on in the podcast and

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in our book is it's hoping that we can give parents the

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information that will allow them to have confidence. That's why

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the, the sort of the tone of the podcast and the tone of the book

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was so important to us, because we didn't want it to be

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prescriptive, we didn't want it to be talking down to parents,

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like they're no daft. You know, that is something that they can

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then take that information with, and then run with it. And that

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will then give the confidence that will hopefully allow them

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to not feel like they need to compare as much. Yeah, I think

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you're absolutely right, confidence is crucial. And

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confidence for some parents, I'm guessing comes from

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inflammation. And that's where the book is so key because it

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gives that inflammation. Yeah, and also, it comes from doing

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things and it working, I guess to some of those things are

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things you have to work at yourself, you know, if you're

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talking about settling techniques that you're going to

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use on your baby, they're going to be different for different

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children. And finding like the you know, you said you had an

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aha moment earlier on those aha moments in parenting are, are

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also what gives you the confidence and the strength, you

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know, and those those you know, your relationship with your baby

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or your child is forged in those aha moments, and often in the

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middle of the night, you know, that first time that you manage

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to settle them doing something, you know, that is late, you

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know, if you're trying to settle them in their, in their, their

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own sleeping space, where we talked about using the sweet,

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sweet mom sugar a lot. And that was an aha moment for me when

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when I started struggling my baby's bottom and she went to

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sleep and I wasn't feeding her 20 times.

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And getting no rest. And and there have been many aha

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moments. Following that, you know, not related to sleep we're

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talking about, we've been talking about anxiety and stuff

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as well that, you know, when when my mom she was probably

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about three started having a really big tantrum in the car on

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the way to something and suddenly going, I maybe had been

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a little bit short with her. And then actually realizing she's

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she's nervous about what we're going to do. You know, that's

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where this has come from. And having those moments where you

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understand your child are incredible, but they should

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they're also the things that give you confidence. Sorry, I

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feel like I went on often a very big sort of monologue.

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No, I love that. Tell me what is shuttling.

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I love this. This was like news two. News to me. I think it was

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news cat as well, though, that this is such a Scottish thing.

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And they've so many people ask about, I know that you don't

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you're not on camera yet. But imagine this is your baby. And

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you literally just put a nice firm hand on their bottom and

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give them a good old sugar. So if you imagine when they're in

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the pram or you're rocking them, they're getting that movement.

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And so it's just recreating that movement when they're in the

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record in their safe, sweet sleep environments to give them

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that comfort. And you just should call them off to sleep. I

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love that we're gonna have to share this video, we will share

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that clip of Sarah doing it. But that makes sense, isn't it

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because

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our children get put in a car when they go into a pram or a

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pushchair that movement is so helpful in terms of putting them

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to sleep. And yet when they're in their beds, or their cots.

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They don't there's no motion. There. They've got the motion in

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the womb they've got you know, you'd never pick up a baby and

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don't bounce or move or something. So naturally, they're

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so used to that. And it's just supporting them when they are in

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their court so that they feel safe and they feel something

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familiar. Oh, I love that. Can I ask? So we've we've talked about

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babies, I want to start talking about older children. And one of

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the common things that I get asked about and some of the

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common challenges that parents have is that how is that

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settling? So we've now got a child that's sleeping in a bed,

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they're mobile, they can get up they can come out and tell us

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that they're hungry. They're thirsty that what are the in

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your experience? All the things

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can you give us some tips about how do we what is in your

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experience some of the best ways to settle a child so that we can

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and help them as best as possible for them to go to sleep

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in their own bed. So the really key things are support, you need

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to support your older children, if they feel like they're just

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being left to go to sleep by themselves or left when they

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wake up, then the anxiety builds, and it becomes pretty

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messy. So our top tips would be using visual aids, it's really

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important that they understand and they know what their

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expectation is. So we both love photos, I love a polaroid photo.

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So take actual visual timeline. Yeah, so take actual pictures of

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your child doing the things that you would like them to do,

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including a photo of them sleeping in bed, and have that

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somewhere that they can see it and you can refer back to it. So

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you can talk about it during the day, not necessarily at bedtime,

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because as we know, that can add to the anxiety, but for

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something that they can go and check during the day, and this

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is the get that comfort from CNET. And then as they do that

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activity, so you might pick five that could be have a bath, clean

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your teeth, read a book, pick your pajamas on hop into bed,

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and they can see themselves doing those things. And so they

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can then take those things off the wall as and when they've

Unknown:

done them. And the very last thing that happens is once

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you're asleep, you remove the one of them sleeping and just

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pop it next to their bed so that when they wake up in the

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morning, they see that there and they know that they've achieved

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that. So they instantly get that excitement because they've done

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what they knew they were meant to do. But actually explaining

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that and trying to talk to children without any visuals can

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be really difficult for them to take on board, what we're

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actually asking them and what our expectation is. So just

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using lots of visual leads, lots and lots of support, lots of

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positive reinforcement, I can't tell you how many people come to

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me and see I just lose the rag when they don't sleep and that's

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understandable. But try and cling on to even the smallest

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positive thing and use that as your focus when you're talking

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about the negatives. So really encourage them and really focus

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on that one little positive and just drop in maybe tonight you

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could try this instead. So the actual thing that is the biggest

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issue for you, you talk about it in the smallest possible way I

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use a bit of a hack for for series visual timelines because

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I'm not quite as crafty as her and Mike I use my fingers so you

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know they we fold them down when we've done the thing so it might

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be you know, having a bath and then the last thing will be

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missing you know kissing them and giving them a cuddle Good

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night. And that's also quite a nice way of them being able to

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physically do something as we move through through the

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process. But also as and that's obviously for older children but

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also Sarah says that's that's what we can do for them to help

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them within kind of going to bed and going to sleep but it's also

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so important to find the things you need to do for you to make

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that process as smooth one as Sarah saying often we feel we we

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lose our Wragge when you know we want them to be asleep or we're

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tired or we've not had dinner and Sarah and I talk about this

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a lot know what you need to be able to get through that process

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as calmly as possible because that can be key, particularly

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with older children. I think that's true, probably right up

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until their teens I guess because that whole that whole

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thing is that whole energy around bedtime is so important

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because if it if it escalates that can completely derail it.

Unknown:

Yeah and thinking about it from both both of perspectives I love

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the idea that the photographs of your of the children doing it

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themselves, but I also love the hack that you've got kept with

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your fingers, it just shows that we don't have to, we can just

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adapt and we can modify what works for us as as a parent and

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but I also love how crucial it is about making sure that we

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understand what we need in order to make that happen. So can I

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just ask as an a question around how do we make sure that we get

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sleep we've talked a lot about our children and our babies what

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what are your top tips around our sleep from those early days

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right and right the way through how do we make sure that we get

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enough sleep ourselves a lot of the things we recommend for for

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babies and children are exactly the same as what what we need as

Unknown:

adults we need you know consistent times to go to bed

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and to get up in the day. We need a bed a healthy bedtime

Unknown:

routine. Ideally that doesn't involve screens and and social

Unknown:

media for the last wee while. You need to think about your

Unknown:

sleep environment, you know, is it good temperature or do you

Unknown:

like your pillow?

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You know, Is it quiet? Is it dark? All of the things you

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would you would be thinking about in terms of a baby or a

Unknown:

child's room. And and I think that that's kind of about having

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good

Unknown:

habits around sleep. But also prioritizing it for yourself,

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you know that

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we can feel quite kind of martyr ish. I think as parents, of

Unknown:

course, there's going to be a lot of, you're going to lose

Unknown:

sleep when you become a parent. But that also doesn't mean that

Unknown:

you can't say I need this and to ask for help to try and get it.

Unknown:

I'm a terrible Napper everyone was like, you know, says the

Unknown:

sleep when the baby sleeps, it's just not ridic realistic. In

Unknown:

fact, it's ridiculous. You know, you baby sleep for a sort of 18

Unknown:

hours a day and also have a tendency to like fall asleep and

Unknown:

test or something which you cannot do.

Unknown:

So, you know,

Unknown:

but, but finding the right the right environment and the right

Unknown:

space for you to be able to sleep or to get some rest is so

Unknown:

important. And to make sure that, that people know the

Unknown:

people around you, hopefully you have support the people around,

Unknown:

you can help you get that. It's key to ask for help. And even if

Unknown:

you're not sleeping, it taking the time to rest. But also being

Unknown:

a little bit selfish as well, I think you know, it's not always

Unknown:

sleeps that's needed to make you sleep. So F for you, you need to

Unknown:

ask for help, so that you can tidy the house so that you can

Unknown:

then relax and sleep. That's okay, too. I think people do

Unknown:

have a tendency when they're offering to help when you've got

Unknown:

babies and children. If it's sleep related, then the offer is

Unknown:

I'll take the baby, well, you go and sleep and actually that can

Unknown:

just add to the anxiety. So actually just thinking about

Unknown:

what you really need in order to get that sleep overnight, or get

Unknown:

that rest or downtime. And just yeah, I'd be a bit selfish about

Unknown:

that. Yeah, and definitely asking for help. Because

Unknown:

sometimes you you would, as you said, Sarah, if things were

Unknown:

tidied, you'd might then be able to fall asleep, because that's

Unknown:

less of the to do list in your head. That then means that you

Unknown:

can get then rest. So it is so crucial about asking for help.

Unknown:

Why do you think, Okay, this is completely off piste question.

Unknown:

And, but I'm gonna ask anyway, I personally believe that men have

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a whole different filter when it comes to sleep in terms of

Unknown:

hearing babies crying, and then waking up. Is there a

Unknown:

difference? I think that's a really hard one. I see. So many

Unknown:

clients, I see so many people. And we talk about sleep. And I

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honestly think it's probably 5050 as to who makes up the

Unknown:

most, I don't think it's as clean cut as men sleep more. Or

Unknown:

can sleep better. Like I have clients I've got just now, the

Unknown:

dad is one that gets up every night and he wakes up. Mom will

Unknown:

sleep through anything. I mean, literally anything, she will

Unknown:

sleep through it. And dad is a super sensitive one and jumps up

Unknown:

and deals with it. So

Unknown:

I guess I see a lot more people on average. And, you know, I'd

Unknown:

see. Yeah, I see it. i I wonder if it's a little bit about who

Unknown:

acts on what is happening. So I'm very aware that my husband

Unknown:

probably does wake up to all the shouts and cries, but the two

Unknown:

differences are, he chooses to slightly pretend that he's done.

Unknown:

And the child usually say asks for Mama. So we kind of thinks

Unknown:

it's not for him. But in a different family that setup

Unknown:

might be asking for for data or whatever. So our daddy.

Unknown:

But that's how it is. Is that more common? If you're a

Unknown:

MaineCare? I don't know, sera, sera sees more than people, I

Unknown:

guess. But I probably is. I think it drastically varies as

Unknown:

well. Because the thing for some children, you know, if Dad is

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the one who's out at work all day and mom as the main cater,

Unknown:

then they get so excited when dad comes home that they do

Unknown:

actually ask for them overnight. So I don't think there's a

Unknown:

straight answer to this one. It would be an interesting study,

Unknown:

though.

Unknown:

Well, there is a study that I think says that women lose more

Unknown:

sleep in the first year of parenthood than men. But I mean,

Unknown:

you know, you've got to tie in things like feeding and stuff.

Unknown:

If it's an average, so yeah, and as you say, it's the causes of

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that is it that they are just as sensitive to the hearing, but

Unknown:

there's a different in terms of action. So Sarah, thank you,

Unknown:

given that you have seen so many, you've got a much larger

Unknown:

sample, and apologies to all of trying to miss some bus A bus

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submit

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now you have written a book tell me about the book because I

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think that's so helpful for parents who are really

Unknown:

struggling with with what was your kind of driver? What did

Unknown:

you want to make sure that you got across in that book for

Unknown:

parents and why they should be reaching out and buying it right

Unknown:

Right now, it was really, really important to us that as as I

Unknown:

think, said that we wrote a book that was honest, that had real

Unknown:

solutions for for parents. And that wasn't kind of talking down

Unknown:

either. In all of our chapters we kind of have, it's not quite

Unknown:

homework is just what what you can do next. And we have, you

Unknown:

know, what you need, what you can do for survival and what you

Unknown:

can do if you want to change things. And people really,

Unknown:

really respond really well to that they want option, they want

Unknown:

to have the information, but they also want options. And we

Unknown:

also wanted it really to be very straightforward for people to

Unknown:

kind of dip in and out of in in those sleep deprived months of

Unknown:

early parenthood. It's called Sleep Better baby. It's

Unknown:

available in all good bookstores, online and in

Unknown:

person. And, yeah, we were really proud of it. It was an

Unknown:

absolute labor of love, we got the book deal, the month was my

Unknown:

third child was born. So we had a very intensive year, he had a

Unknown:

very intensive first year of life as well, because he spent a

Unknown:

lot of time with Syria, me writing, but thankfully, he was

Unknown:

a very forgiving writing companion. But it did also mean

Unknown:

that I was living it at the time that we were writing, which I

Unknown:

think really helped to. Yeah, and the reviews are very much

Unknown:

that it has been life saving. And so kind of instrumental in

Unknown:

getting parents through and what and what is so great is this

Unknown:

idea that you can use it for in that moment. But you can also

Unknown:

then use the book, if you want to be looking at making some

Unknown:

changes forward planning it. Because quite often with books,

Unknown:

we can end up reading them and then feeling that we're doing

Unknown:

something wrong, rather than I need some help right now and

Unknown:

fixing this particular issue. And then I might then also look,

Unknown:

and I think that's what's so incredible about this book, it's

Unknown:

a really practical, whatever you might need, and tailored to this

Unknown:

idea that it's very individual within families, it's not all

Unknown:

the same. And we will be sharing the links to where you can buy

Unknown:

the book, so that you can kind of get that peace of that

Unknown:

security and that safety and that really excellent,

Unknown:

incredible advice. Kat. And Sarah, it has been an absolute

Unknown:

pleasure. I think we could probably talk more, and maybe we

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should have you back on talking about something else. Some other

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things as well. But can you tell the listeners where we will be

Unknown:

sharing links, but just in your own voices? Where is the best

Unknown:

place for other parents who are listening to this podcast to

Unknown:

connect with you to hear your podcast to connect with you

Unknown:

socially and all across all the ways that they can connect. But

Unknown:

I think the best place to find us particularly if you're

Unknown:

listening to this podcast is our podcast, the sleep moms. You

Unknown:

just find it by searching the sleep moms. There's over 70

Unknown:

episodes on there, not just about baby sleep. We have

Unknown:

fantastic series which we're also going to have Dr. Mary

Unknown:

Hannon called the Eat disease. Sleep moms at CES where where we

Unknown:

cover lots of different subjects about parenthood. And yeah, the

Unknown:

podcast is I think our spiritual home. That's where everything

Unknown:

came from. And the book, sleep better baby, as you said you can

Unknown:

buy it online are in bookstores. We are on social channels at the

Unknown:

sleep moms we are on Instagram, Facebook.

Unknown:

We dabble in Tik Tok and YouTube. And I think once I

Unknown:

tried to set up a Pinterest board, I mean this is you know,

Unknown:

I'm feeling came having spoken to you really that we should be

Unknown:

kind of shredding away somewhere.

Unknown:

But we are in all those places and we'd love you to come and

Unknown:

find us. We keep it judgment free and hopefully funny and

Unknown:

useful as much as possible. And we also have a website this

Unknown:

week, mums dot code at UK. Well, thank you Kat. Thank you Sara so

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much and here's to a good night's sleep.

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