In this episode of 'More Than Work,' host Rabiah engages in a profound conversation with Kileen Barry, founder of Kaizen Collective and a sex therapist. They dive into Kileen's journey from digital marketing to therapy, exploring her motivations, influences, and the pivotal books 'Come As You Are' and 'Maybe You Should Talk to Someone.' The discussion covers Kileen's academic path, her unique approach to therapy, which emphasizes a holistic and salutogenic model, and her passion for integrating mental, physical, and nutritional care. The episode also touches on the importance of boundaries, Kileen's self-care practices, and her aspirations for Kaizen Collective. Join Rabiah and Kileen as they uncover the layers of professional and personal evolution, making this more than just work.

00:00 Introduction to More Than Work Podcast

00:34 Meet Kileen Barry: Founder and Sex Therapist

02:04 Kileen's Journey into Therapy

02:20 From Digital Marketing to Therapy

03:18 The Impact of Books on Kileen's Career

04:16 Personal Experiences with Therapy

09:21 Kileen's Nonprofit Work and Its Influence

13:57 Understanding Salutogenic Model in Therapy

24:26 The Importance of Discussing Sex in Therapy

27:36 Generational Shifts in Attitudes Towards Sex

30:34 The Wire Monkey Experiment

31:42 Attachment Styles and Personal Growth

32:31 Book Recommendations and Attachment Theory

34:01 Transitioning Careers and Education

39:27 Starting a Private Practice

40:02 Holistic Mental Health Approach

43:31 Maintaining Boundaries as a Therapist

48:37 Fun and Personal Insights

53:34 Final Thoughts and Contact Information

Note from Rabiah (host): It seems that though there are huge gaps between episodes lately, they are also somehow coming right on time, especially since I know what is coming next. Editing this one was a joy and gave me a sense of normalcy that I haven’t had in over a month. I broke my leg and left A&E at 2:30am on my birthday. That wasn’t how I planned to start my year of being 45. But in listening and editing, I appreciated the conversation that I’m now sharing with you because this is a conversation with a friend who I got to learn a lot about and who I wouldn’t have been able to engage with in the same way at 35 or 25. Kileen is full of grace and her career change more than made sense. I hope you enjoy this one as much as I did and am curious about what you, the listener, will take from it.

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Find Kileen

PHIIRST

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Mentioned in this episode:

polysecure by Jessica Fern

Dr. Aaron T Beck

Salvador Minuchin, MD

Katy Milkman

Katie Porter

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More than Work Facebook, Instagram, Twitter: @morethanworkpod Please review and follow anywhere you get podcasts. Thank you for listening. Have feedback? Email morethanworkpod(at)gmail.com!

This is More Than Work, the podcast reminding you that your self-worth

is made up of more than your job title.

Each week, I'll talk to a guest about how they discovered that for themselves.

You'll hear about what they did, what they're doing, and who they are.

I'm your host, Rabiah.

I work in IT, perform stand up comedy, write, and of course podcast.

Thank you for listening.

Here we go!

Welcome back to More Than Work this week.

Everyone, this is a guest that I know personally, but we've never really gotten

to detail about what she does, really.

We've always talked about other stuff, so I'm really excited to

explore all this with her and learn more about her work life and also

how it's affected her personally.

It's Kileen Barry, she's founder of Kaizen Collective and a sex therapist.

So thanks for being here, Kileen.

For having me on, I'm happy to be here.

And where am I talking to you from today?

I am from, uh, Philadelphia.

I'm currently in my clubhouse, which is also my working space.

Nice.

Clubhouse?

It feels more fun to call it a clubhouse than an office.

So that's what, and it's the, it's the attic part of our trinity,

so it feels very like clubhouse ala nineties family sitcom.

So that's,

Very cool.

All you need is like some sharpies to draw on your jeans or something

and you're all set, right?

yeah.

Foosball table, right?

Exactly, exactly.

Oh, I'm kind of jealous.

I should call my, well, it would be like my, the one room in

my flat that's not my bedroom.

I would have to call it something, but Oh, that's fun.

Keep me posted on the new title.

I will, I will have to rename this and let the landlord

know next time he puts it up he can actually say he has three rooms.

That's awesome.

Well, so, okay, so I guess we'll just get right into it,

I have a therapist.

I don't have a sex therapist.

Not that I'm bragging.

I think everyone could probably use some kind of guidance

around certain, certain things.

But how did you get into therapy first of all?

And I mean, not as a patient, but as a, as a practitioner.

I could tell you I got into therapy as a patient, but because when I first

met you, that's not what you were doing.

Yeah, no, definitely in a different field than when we first met.

So yeah, at that time I was, uh, I had a digital marketing company.

I was doing a lot of design work.

I was doing a lot of brand development, so a lot of creative

work, which I thoroughly enjoyed.

And part of that was really satisfying, especially when I got to work with some

smaller clients and some nonprofits, which was more, in terms of my original

roots, um, being in the nonprofit world.

And then kind of the, the reality of any company of, in order to

take on those jobs, I would have to have some larger clients.

You know, working with banks, working with ESPN was one of them, which

I had torn feelings about . But so really being attuned to kind of feeling

that I got to do my creative work, but that I felt kind of disconnected.

It's a very isolating job especially when you work from home

which now is more commonplace.

But, you know, 10 years ago that was less commonplace.

So at the time I was kind of reflecting on what felt right in

terms of next steps, and I read Emily Nagoski's book " Come As You Are".

I read that in 2017.

Learned all about the depths of the clitoris, which was

just an amazing journey, and an important one for everyone.

And then a few years later I read "Maybe You Should Talk to Someone"

by Lori Gottlieb she talks about her journey as a therapist and as a client.

And then tells, uh, the story of a few of her other clients.

And it was the culmination of those two books that I was like, oh, I wanna be

a sex therapist.And I had in my Apple Notes from years ago of just putting

that in my notes, bolding it, and then having the talk with my partner that I

was like, I think this is my next move.

And he was like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

That's cool.

And so did you, did you, have you, I don't know if this is okay as a

question, but have you been in therapy?

Like is that something you've done personally?

So you kind of had been experienced it on that side of things and then

kind of I think, knew that that was something you wanted to do for other

people, because I think the therapist, that that relationship, if you have

a therapist, you re, that resonates with you, at least in my experience,

is like one of the most important relationships you'll have, really.

Yeah.

Yeah, I, I appreciate that question.

So my background in therapy was actually not a great one, and it was very fleeting.

It was more I had been to a family therapist a handful of

times with my family, but more specifically with my sister...

mm-Hmm,

who in therapy lingo would be called the "identified patient".

So it was mainly work that my parents had her go in and then I supplementally

would go in for family sessions which, just different dynamics.

It was early high school, so there wasn't a lot of autonomy or power,

so it was actually quite a not ideal experience terms of therapy.

So I had a very negative opinion of therapy for a while.

I saw it kind of utilized as a way for my parents to navigate a situation

that they just didn't know how to navigate, didn't want to navigate kind

of offloading, fix this kid narrative.

In my graduate school, I was definitely the anomaly in

terms of my fellow classmates.

A lot of them had more of the path that you were kind of describing

in terms of being in therapy throughout their teens, their early

twenties, loving their therapists.

Several therapists were in there because they had such a

great impact through therapy.

So definitely my scenario was not, uh, true to a lot of my classmates.

Oh, that's interesting.

And then, yeah.

And I've seen what you're describing and I think especially at least as I've

gotten older, I've seen, you know, that kind of situation with, with other people.

And I didn't go into therapy until I put myself there when I was

like, in my early, early twenties.

And it was like I had access to it via student health.

And then, yeah.

And I've had a couple that weren't, weren't great, but I think that

it is interesting that you hadn't really experienced that yourself,

but you still wanted to help people.

Or do you see it as a way for you to help people?

Or what kind of, other than you read the two books, but what was it, especially

in the second book, I guess, that, that Gottlieb wrote, that, that made

you think, oh, I wanna be a therapist

Yeah, I think for me it was, well, I, I've always had an interest

in how people work and how people think and why we choose the behaviors

that we do and the influence of our relationships and family of origin and

how all that makes us who we are and really impacts us for better or for worse.

And so I think for me, I was always intrigued in terms of consuming a

lot of that type of information.

Psychology Today-- I, I asked for that for my birthday when I was like 13

. Um, So that was always kind of like in , in the types of

things I would like to consume.

And so I thought I was gonna do research for a bit, but that felt very distant.

So I was consuming these things, talking about these things with my

friends, with my partner all these, uh, podcasts and books that I would

be reading through in my spare time.

And I really wanted to have an understanding of how to bridge

that disconnect of like, okay, what are ways that I could actually

apply this to not just my life, but maybe other people's lives.

And the really strong pull about therapy for me was how direct it is.

In doing creative work in the past it was like you'd see your work out

there and you'd, you'd get feedback, but it kind of felt like it was just

like floating out in the world, right?

At least in my experience.

And then with therapy, you're like in the space with someone and you're, and

you're getting to meet with them weekly.

You're getting to talk about all the things that I was

spending time researching that I was, I was doing myself.

"Me search", right?

And really getting that back and forth, that interaction,

which is just so connecting.

Especially as an extrovert , which was just kind of the added, uh,

you know, cherry on top for me.

Yeah, yeah.

'cause you at least like spending time with people, which is probably important.

at some point.

So that's what you to do.

That's really cool.

And you did mention . that you did nonprofit work in the past,

like far past, and can you talk about how you got into that?

And then I want to see if there's a connection I guess, between

that and then helping people now

Yeah, right.

The, the, the wavering red thread

Yeah.

If I, and if I'm not right, then that's all right.

But I'd like to see if

Yeah.

So I, uh, worked for a company called TechnoServe, which is still around.

And I was working on a bill and Melinda Gates, uh, foundation grant.

The coffee initiative, we worked with coffee farmers in East Africa Kenya,

Tanzania, Rwanda, and Ethiopia, and got to go to coffee farms during my time

there, it was a very meaningful project.

It was kind of on the back of having done my undergrad with political

science and conflict resolution.

So political science, you can typically go into the nonprofit

world or you become a lawyer.

And my liberal wanting to change the world heart didn't wanna

do the law path at that stage.

So nonprofits, it was.

And that was a amazing experience and quite a sad experience because the

coffee initiative essentially ended because our grant money was canceled.

Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation decided to do a pivot in terms of the types

of projects that they were working on.

So they did a full focus on malaria efforts during that time, which, kind

of killed the coffee initiative and, uh.

then that was a very, like, sad period.

And I was like, okay, I need to take a pause from the nonprofit Thankfully

got to do some creative work.

While I was there, I designed some coffee bags for Starbucks because I

was with a bunch of McKinsey people who were just very logically fo focused and

didn't wanna do any of the creative work.

So it got put on my table, which I happily said, yes, would love to do this.

So that kind of sparked the, okay, let me see how I can navigate doing more

of this creative work that is enjoyable.

Yeah.

Oh, wow.

So, yeah.

And I'm, uh, also, I don't know if we've discussed that before.

I was a political science major as well.

Yes, I, thought so.

Yeah.

yeah.

And ended up in tech somehow.

And then, you know, but then also, like, I just constantly do work with

nonprofits, like as a volunteer.

And I think it, it is true, like if you, I think political science is an

interesting major because it does allow you to, to see things from various

perspectives and see world events and see, you know, your own politics and as

well as others like in a different way.

And I think then it is hard to not want to make an impact.

'cause you're applying the knowledge you get.

Right.

And you did conflict resolution too, so, I mean, even places you went kind

of, I'm sure were related to that.

Absolutely.

Yeah, I appreciate that so much.

'cause seeing the, the systemic components of where we are, how

that varies place to place, and then seeing the ways that it could maybe

be a little bit more inclusive,

Yeah.

and helpful to more people.

So yeah, that pull of like, how can we use the system that we're under,

at least in the nonprofit world, use the resources of wealthy donors to try

and make an impact for those who have often been left behind, unfortunately.

So.

Yeah, a hundred percent.

So then going back through, you know, what you did, and thanks for also setting up

what you were doing before and, and how you decided to go in, into what you're

doing now with the sex therapy like . and choosing that, that aspect of therapy.

I mean, you're still dealing with a holistic person regardless of if there's

one aspect of them that you're, or their life that you're focused on, right?

And I saw on your website, I mean, a lot of very familiar terms just

because of the, what I've done and either read or, or done myself.

But one word that came up was salutogenic.

Uh, yeah.

I don't know if I even said that correctly, but I,

saw that word and I didn't know what it was and I looked it up.

But you, and, but I want you to explain it, like that's one , basis of the like

work that you do with people, but can you talk about what that word means?

I thought it was very interesting.

Yeah, absolutely.

I, I appreciate that.

I learned that word in graduate school when I was writing

about post-traumatic growth.

And so often throughout grad school and all my kind of learnings

about the mental health field is they talk about pathologies.

That we had a whole class on just that, the DSM pathologies

which I would call symptoms,

Yeah.

and symptoms of, maybe there's a, a root concern going on

there and be curious about that.

Not say how dare you have anxiety, you know, let's give

you some medication for that.

But the salutogenic model is looking at kind of the wider components of health

and strength and resilience that go into the current status of where a person's at.

So rather than looking at, you know, what's wrong, it's looking at where

they're at what are the ways that maybe some of the things that came up for

them, these symptoms helped them get to where they're, where they are and

how can they flourish because of those attributes and because of maybe some

other things that need to be learned.

So I think it's definitely more of a strength-based and more

holistic view of a person than kind of the, the pathological stance.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah.

And it, and that is interesting 'cause even if, if you look at someone who,

they do have anxiety, they do have depression or something, there's

still aspects of them that are dealing with that, I guess in a way.

Or where they're still achieving, like they have some kind of strength

that that's getting 'em through that they can continue to build upon.

Or you have resilience.

I mean, I know going through a lot of depressive episodes, like you do

build a resilience because you, well, you have to really, mean, in a way.

But like looking at that and, and highlighting that,

that's an, that's interesting.

And then were you surprised, like in grad school, just 'cause you had to

have learned a lot and a lot of, I guess would it be modalities, probably.

And a lot of . Different ways of, of looking at the person

holistically or otherwise.

Was there anything that surprised you in your learning or that you, you saw that

you were like, wow, I need to investigate that further, either because you agree

or disagree or anything like that?

I mean, the , one of the things that was funny to

me, and I think part of it is I hadn't been in school for a while.

I did undergraduate and then a span of time before graduate school.

So I was like, okay, how much of this is me being older and a different version

of myself that I, I had much more of a not skeptical, but um, critical, and

not critical in the, in the negative sense, but like a critical, like, let's,

let's ask some questions here, not just take the teachers at face value

kind of, um, and for me, academia, right, the, the number one thing you,

you're told not to do in academia is plagiarize, which is important.

And yet I'm learning these modalities and I'm like, wait, so there's a

schema and then there's a lens.

And like, just like, I'm like, tell me the difference between these two

things or just how much overlap there were in the modalities that I was just

like, huh, this, it feels like we're talking about the same thing, just with

different vocabulary and maybe different stages of like historical development.

So I, I thought that was kind of funny.

And I always giggle to myself about that, about when people are like, oh, I

do Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, or Cognitive Behavioral Therapy or

Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, and you like, it's good to have all the different

ones, but I guess it would be a flag for me if anyone was like, I only do

Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, period.

I would be okay...

Yeah, how are you doing that?

So, that, that was kind of interesting to me.

And then I, I hinted on this before is my, my research there was about

post-traumatic growth and how little that's talked about versus

post-traumatic stress disorder or trauma.

And so I was really surprised that that wasn't talked about, more

about resiliency training, as well.

That was like a really big intrigue for me in terms of like I.

It's important to understand the impact of, uh, stimulus stressors

that it has on a person, right?

Having the experience of trauma or having the experience of post-traumatic

stress disorder, and also that there's lots of factors that come

in to kind of what we were speaking about before in terms of that

resiliency building that often occurs.

And we see this with grief often, or when people have near death, uh,

experiences, that there'll be this whole new quest for meaning and

assessment of values and these positive things that can come with it as well.

Yeah.

I mean, I, yeah.

'cause when you said post-traumatic growth, I, it did strike me, and

that was a little earlier, but that, I hadn't heard that phrase before.

I always heard about post-traumatic stress disorder and how it, and

also just that it is a disorder when it's kind of like just something

happened and that's the state, right?

But, and then you hear about triggers and these are all like,

just words that have become part of our just general nomenclature.

It's like, oh, don't trigger that person.

Or they're so triggered, or things like that.

But then it's a really a thing for people.

And yeah.

And then these things happening and you not reacting.

I mean, I.

and we've talked about it, but I, you know, I, and I'll I'll say it

here, but like, 'cause you mentioned grief, but like I was talking to my

friend who was visiting me and like my brother died 15 years ago, right?

And which is unbelievable, was 15 years.

But, and it was a, it was a drug overdose and accidental, I should say.

And...

yeah.

my relationship with that is much different today than

it was 15 years ago and even, and now it's like really hard.

'cause all the stories about opioids, all the news articles,

all the films, everything.

And there's some parts of that I can't, uh, watch or, and it's

not like I'm even triggered.

It's like I don't want it to be part of what I'm taking in, but some of

it I watch with great, you know, interest and say, oh yeah, 'cause I

want to keep helping impact people.

But I think that that just shows that there's like a, a, a resilience that

builds over time where you couldn't ever see a story like that and that you can,

and, and there's so many ways that it manifests for people and . . I think

it's important that you're acknowledging that rather than just seeing it as

a disorder, that they're just kind of have, and that they will have.

Right?

That's it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I appreciate that so much.

One, in just hearing the level of attunement that you have in terms of

noticing how you respond to what you are consuming and that some things feel more

okay or even intriguing and some things that are just, they're not of service

to you, so you just don't consume them.

So I, I appreciate hearing that.

And then the, the second bit of right that the unhelpful of a fixed

mindset when it comes to some of the language surrounding disorders.

And again, I personally would say like symptoms, right?

Like, the symptoms that come up after a really stressful

event make a lot of sense.

You know, we see this in, in wildlife all the time.

There's a very famous video of a polar bear that it's on YouTube.

There were a, a group of researchers and they were kind of tracking polar

bears in the Arctic to see longevity, everything to do with climate change.

And they needed to tranquilize, the, the polar bear to track all

the data that they had little tag on and the video um, of when the polar

bear wakes up from that tranquilizer.

So it's not, it wasn't awake during that state, but its body was present and it

does this very vigorous shaking method to kind of release all that excess

cortisol and get out of that stress response, right, that it was stuck in.

And it's so instinctive for animals to do this.

We even see when, you know, dogs go up to each other and maybe they feel a little

uncomfortable, they'll do a shake as well.

Yeah.

Or if someone almost gets hit by a car, sometimes they'll

do this laughing reaction, which is actually moving you from that

sympathetic to parasympathetic state.

So I think it's so interesting to just, when we can think about things as,

as the symptoms, it really just, it, it takes out that like, you have this

disorder or you don't have this disorder.

It takes out this fixed mindset, but rather says, okay, why

is this coming up for you?

And what are some things that we can help with you during this growth stage?

And also be attuned to like, what is the root situation coming from?

Yeah, it almost, it's almost sounds like a shifting of blame, uh,

of like, oh, it's because I am this.

So it's shifting the blame off of you and that shame that comes with

being a label, like being a thing.

And then also like blaming that condition rather, because if I say

I'm like this 'cause of my depression, like there's still something there.

And so like I can either do that and say, well, that's what it is.

Or I can say, well, I've got that.

And so that's making this thing harder for me, I guess, right?

Yeah.

Absolutely.

And I appreciate that, that space there too, right?

Like also not taking on like it as an identity, but rather that a part of you

feels depressed and and that means that informs kind of how you're navigating

that given week or those given months.

And that is a, a really helpful component in terms of especially

showing yourself the kindness and compassion that is extra necessary

if part of you is feeling depressed.

Yeah.

Hmm.

That's really cool.

So then as far as getting into the area of sex therapy specifically versus other,

you know, other, like you could have been, I mean, it could be part of marriage and

family therapy anyway, to be quite honest.

I'm, it probably is, but how did you get into that area?

I guess you read the, the book you mentioned at first, but what,

what brought you into that space?

And I saw like you talk about inclusion as well from a gender and sex perspective

and sexuality perspective and stuff.

But yeah, just if you can talk about being in that area, in that space?.

Yeah.

So I think what brought me there is my Catholic school education,

which is why that book was so impactful.

But I'll say.

I, I put sex therapist down, most specifically because my background

is in marriage and family therapy, and sex therapy as well.

So working with individuals, working with couples working with all sorts

of relationships, friendships as well.

Really that's systemic thinking about that nothing happens in a silo, right?

We're not just anxious because we're contained and we're feeling that way.

Like there's factors going on, you know, there's, there's our, there's our

government, there's the, the climate that we're in, there's our relationships.

All of those factors are things that get brought up in therapy, and

oftentimes sex is not brought up.

Thankfully the place that I work first, Sex is right in the

title, the Philadelphia Institute for Sex and Relational Therapy.

So.

People who are coming there, typically that's, that's, that's known to be there.

And if we were in my, my office in Rittenhouse, I have a clitoris, a

three D printed clitoris that I have And I have a penis and I have a vulva

and they're very prominently there.

So part of that is bringing that aspect of the person into the therapeutic space,

whether it's individually or with couples.

And so I really wanted to make sure that I had that foundation because

it's not directly in most curriculums.

And that was something that I really wanted to specialize in because

to, to work with couples or people and then not bring up sex at all

Yeah.

is just, it, it feels like a really large

misstep and missed opportunity.

So that's why I kind of lean on that framework to make sure that

it's known that that's gonna be included and that I've done my

work really be educated on that.

'cause it's not always part of that curriculum.

Yeah.

And well, that's, yeah, and it is funny because, I mean, so much of

our, our lives or conversations or even things that happen to people

are, are sex, like because of sex.

Like, you think about, like, if you talk about dating, you know, you talk about

that, and then even if you look at, you know, cat calling, that's about sex.

If you look at other behaviors that, or just what we do or what we do in

our home, you know, in our homes or.

You know, pornography, whatever.

That's all sex.

It's not, it's not like, it's not part of people's lives.

I mean, yeah.

'cause even if you, if you go on a date basically and tell your friend

I on a date, oh, what happened?

And they, that's what they want to know or why think lot of, like, even people

not understanding just things outside of straight relationships, a lot of

it comes to them not understanding the sex part or having a problem with that

when it's really no one's business.

'cause you don't go around to straight people and asking

them how they're having sex.

And I mean, you can assume a lot of 'em aren't, I'm just kidding, but like,

But but

send them my way.

yeah, I'll send to you if you're not having sex, to her but

yeah, so that's interesting that, and even in school, thinking about, well

so you said Catholic school, so, but I went to a public school so you learned

these parts and then they did talk about like male ejaculation, but they

never talk about anything as a woman...

enjoyment, whatever.

And I think you know, I do hope that the generation after mine, 'cause

I'm in my forties, I think you're in the generation right before mine or,

you know, I'm in the edge of mine.

But, you know, maybe you guys learned a little bit more.

But then I hope this one, I mean, as much as I don't like how much

information kids have in a way at such an early age, it's a lot to process.

I do hope that they do have healthier attitudes towards each other,

especially regarding this, you know, and towards themselves, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, and I've witnessed that just even in my, my younger clients, my

clients who are in their early twenties.

Just how they talk about their identity and how they relate to others and

what gender means to them and what presenting a certain way means to them

in a way that's helpful or not helpful.

And it's just so much more expansive and nuanced.

And, and these are generalizations, these are clients specifically.

But also just so much more inclusive and curious and how consent is talked

about and how we can learn so much from the BDSM world about how to

better navigate conversations about sex and negotiating and aftercare.

So yeah, it's, it's very promising in terms of the experiences

I've had clinically in seeing how the new world can look.

And obviously, yes, access to information is definitely scary, especially

thinking about social media for like middle schoolers that, uh, would've

been terrible, at for me as a kid.

Oh, for me too.

And, and it is funny, the, not funny, but the, it is interesting with the

consent thing because if you, well, I'm like, ah, I don't really talk about my

personal life too much on here, but like if you're with someone who's younger like

my age, and you're with someone who's a little bit younger, not not too young,

like with someone even 10 years younger, there's a different language that they're

speaking than, than someone my age.

I mean, it's just like, what?

Why are you just get on with it, you know?

And they're like trying to be careful and it's really interesting.

It's, it's fascinating and I, I think yeah, I just, I don't know.

I think it's great that there's different language and, and people think about

how they're interacting with each other in this way 'cause it's such a,

whether you're, whether you're having sex just for fun and that's it or

not, there's still like these basic things where it's a very intimate

thing no matter what it is, right?

And or I think so.

And so, yeah, I think it is good that there's more people talking about it.

More people offering help like you are, or you know, just more

information that people can access.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And being such social creatures, right?

The, the drive for connection is so real and full.

And I, I just think about the, the Harlow, Harlow monkeys.

Do remember that experiment from like Psych 1 0 1?

Um.

back when ethics were not as maybe spelled out for some of these testings,

which we got a lot of information from the research, but also very problematic.

So like problematic.

But they had a capucci monkey that was orphaned.

And so they took this beautiful capucci monkey and they put it in a cage.

Now again, like this is a terrible experiment.

And they had two wire monkeys in there that were about the size of what a

mom would be for the capucci monkey.

And one was wrapped in fur that would feel very indicative of being like close

to a mother, like character or caretaker.

And then the other wire monkey was just bare wire, but it had a bottle.

Hmm.

And so the monkey would spend almost all of the time on the fur

monkey cuddling next to it, wanting, you know, the softness, and then just

when it needed energy, it would go over to the bottled monkey, wire monkey and

have some of that, and then go back over immediately to the fur monkey.

And it just reconfirming what we know as social creatures is this desire

to be close and connected, whether that's coming through with sex, a lot

of people feel more connected during that, or it's coming through in terms

of just physical proximity and, and feeling emotionally connected as well.

So I think they're all interwoven and we don't have enough time for

attachment, so I won't get into that.

Oh gosh.

Well I know there's that book "Attached" that my friend read and

I just, I think if we talk about it enough then I don't have to read it,

but still . I still probably should.

But he has explained to me attachment styles and how anxious attachment

styles and avoidant and, and I've seen how my behavior based on my

understanding of his reading of the book and his explanation, changes.

And sometimes I'll be like, oh, you're being anxious and

I like, don't send that text.

And it's like, it's so almost rewarding to not send it now instead of send it . then

I'm like, or just being this way anyway.

But you know, it's um, well, I wanna, I know I do need to read

that book "Attached", I think, but.

Well I'm sure you have a whole list of books

that are piled up "Attached".

I do like, I would say while so I would say my favorite book on

attachment thus far is actually "polysecure", which does more of a deep

dive into polyamorous relationships.

But they do an excellent job about, I think the first two chapters are

on attachments, so you can get like two chapter condensed version of

attachment and then they go into things like boundaries and negotiation

and move more into polyamory.

But they do such a excellent nuanced way of talking about attachment

that's very anchored in examples.

So it really feels more concrete.

I felt, sometimes with some of the other ones, they feel

very floaty and disconnected.

Like you're like, okay, I get that in theory, but what does that

actually look like in reality?

Totally.

Oh, interesting.

Okay.

So that's good.

So maybe I will read that book, or at least I'll read the cover,

which I do with most of my books.

And then I just have them sitting there on the shelf and it looks, I look

more well read than I am, you know?

Like my friend though, they was saying she has reading glasses, and I was like, why

Like, you know, because I know , she does not read

Uh, yeah.

No, that's, that's really cool.

And of course, I, I love book recommendations.

I love, I love giving 'em to people just because I, I think they also should

have a list of books that, that they need to read that they haven't done.

But other than a lot of reading that you've done, and I'm sure that you

continue to do, what change have you found in your life that that's come

as a result of, of changing careers?

I mean, one thing you had to do was go back to school.

How long was school, by the way?

Your master's?

Two and a half years with a year long internship.

Wow.

Okay.

And then is that you don't have to have a doctorate after that, right?

For practicing.

It's

Right.

So in, so schooling can be done for me right now, the stage that I'm at is doing

all the clinical hours and supplemental continuing education, it's called, it's

like having, education whether seminars or conferences outside of school.

So I have to have a certain number of clinical hours to get licensure,

and that is different per each state.

Okay, gotcha.

So when you were working in your, in your job and looking at that and then making

a decision to go back to school and doing that was just a huge commitment.

And having done just like some little grad classes here and there,

I know it's a huge commitment.

And then you were doing it full-time and then now doing the work you're doing,

what was the change in your personal life as far as just how you felt because

you were doing work you didn't hate, but it just wasn't resonating with you

anymore and now you're, you did something really hard going to school and, and

to do something that, you know, you weren't, you couldn't have been to totally

sure about 'cause you hadn't done it?

So what, what's the impact been to you though?

Like just in the work you're doing now versus then?

Yeah, I, I appreciate that, that question,

especially the last bit, right?

Because there is some imaginal element of like, okay, I, all signs are pointing

that this would be good, but then it's not for another, you know, year and

a half did I actually get to sit in a therapy room and be the therapist.

Like, you role play and things like that.

But that's just awkward and fake like, nothing, none of that

feels real till you're like in the room alone with a person.

You're like, oh, now I'm doing this.

So I appreciate that last aspect, uh, especially.

But yeah, so a lot of changes.

There was a lot of just like, what is it like to go back to school after

you haven't been in school for a while?

What is it like to write a paper?

I, I hadn't written anything longer than an email, right?

I mean that I was not doing that kind of work at all.

I, I, you know, I could do engagements with clients, but

like there was no paper writing.

So it was a Okay transition at first in terms of, that was still during COVID and

so most of my classes were via Zoom, was just an interesting phenomenon in general.

Not having done school in a while, and then it's via Zoom and people having

cameras on, cameras off, trying to engage with teachers things like that.

So that was just interesting.

And then when things started opening back up, uh, I mean, Paul and I were living in

DC at the time, but the program I chose was in Philadelphia because it's one of

the oldest programs in the United States.

Like Philadelphia has this weird mecca for psychology people.

Beck is who did CBT, founder of CBT.

He's out of Philly.

Minuchin, who's the founder of, uh, family therapy is out of Philly.

Katy Milkman, who does the behavior change research is also out of Philly.

So lots of programs here.

So we kind of then decided to move to Philadelphia.

I had torn feelings about kind of shutting down some of my work with

my company, so I kept some clients on like, and just petered out a

little bit to, I mean, financially support, then going on to school and

navigating how much could I continue to work while also going to school.

So that was, that was a, it was a lot of checking in

yeah,

to see how things were feeling.

It wasn't very black and white in terms of like, okay, I'm gonna be done

working and I'm just gonna go to school.

And that's how it's, so that was a bit of a moving assessment.

Yeah.

And then how is it now that you're, now that you are seeing.

I don't know if you call them clients or patients, but how now

that you're seeing people, like how, how is it, I mean, are you, was

it the right decision?

that's a loaded question.

Rabiah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I, I feel very just thankful for my job.

I think it's just amazing that I get to do what I do.

It is so rewarding and fulfilling and I get so excited.

And when I have any space between seeing clients, I'm always

like, oh, does this make sense?

And then as soon as I am like back seeing clients, I'm just like, I love this work.

I, dearly love my clients.

Some of them have been with me since day one of my internship and stayed through

in terms of me going on to have a private practice and not have the internship fee.

So that was a, a big testament as well.

But it's just, it's, it's amazing work.

It's so amazing to, to get to sit with people and get to know them and

just see how much they're growing and just like rooting for them and

just being so excited about the process and feeling so connected.

So I absolutely love my job.

That's great.

I'm glad to hear it.

And you did mention private practice, so we at the start, I, I mentioned that

you're founder of the Kaizen Collective.

So can you talk a little bit about what, what that is?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

So Kaizen Collective is the, the name of my LLC, which for right

now is Mental Health Services.

So that's what I practice under.

I have a space at Phiirst, which is the Philadelphia Institute

for Sex and Relational Therapy.

So it's more of like I'm part of their group practice and I have my

own LLC to practice in Pennsylvania.

And my hope with it right now, we're early stages but in how I practice

with clients is really wanting to weave in a, a holistic approach, which

not just treating the, the brain as if it's not connected to the body.

But really integrating the two of having practices that talk about nutrition,

that talk about people's work with either functional medicine doctors

or their primary care doctors, their psychiatrists, other factors if they

have allergies, how that comes into play.

And also like what are things that they remain connected to their bodies.

So what are some physical practices that they do, whether it be

tai chi or stretching or yoga, going outside, being in nature.

These things that are on every list of things to do, but sometimes get

missed out on when talking about treatment, more widely speaking.

So my hope with the Collective is to, to bring together professionals who

take more of that full body approach.

it be um, Reiki masters, massage therapist, biological dentist, like

really the whole aspect of the human.

And have that network where they're all talking to each other.

And how that looks right now is that for clients that are okay with

it, which course back to consent, I talk to their primary care doctors,

whenever something's coming up.

We talk about labs.

We talk about effects of things like magnesium and vitamin D and how that

can affect mental health greatly.

I talk to psychiatrists.

We talk about titrating medicine, if that makes sense.

So really looping in people so it's not siloed off

That is important because it, when everything's done in a silo, and

it's interesting, so being you, being in the US and then me being in London, like

the NHS cuts off a lot of silos, right?

Because my neurologist can see my blood results from my GP and stuff like that.

And which is helpful kind of because I mean, they can't see, they all can't see

everything, the doctors, but they can release stuff to each other really easily.

And from a medicine perspective, you're not gonna get prescribed

a bunch of stuff randomly because they're just not gonna do it.

So that is interesting, like to help the person kind of

manage their care holistically.

That's That's good.

And yeah, especially what you do put in your body does affect things and maybe

you'll be able to identify something they couldn't or didn't at that time.

That's great.

yeah, yeah.

And I appreciate that.

'cause you have such a interesting insight in terms of your experience

of living in the US for a while and now living in London and experiencing

both of those healthcare systems.

I'm sure like they're equally as great, right?

Yeah.

Wonderful.

I did have, I, I'll say I have wonderful doctors in the US

Hmm.

but it's such a different system to be in and there's definitely

a, a privilege in being able to go to the university doctor in the US versus not.

And you know, I live in London, so there's a privilege there too that

I'm not in, you know, someplace that doesn't have access to UCLH, you know,

the . University College, London.

So, but there's those things, but then also, yeah, the

systems are very different.

So this is more affordable.

as I pay taxes, I get care.

But,

Yeah.

So one thing I've talked to actually my therapist about,

I don't, I don't know why I just try to like, offer her something

when I'm talking to her and paying.

but, you know I've just talked to her about boundaries 'cause I just

setting boundaries, but then I, you know, I've related it to her like that

for her it has to be such an important thing or hard thing to do because like

as an empath personally, I will take on other people's things and, and, and

knowing when it's mine and theirs is hard.

And so for you now, you've gone into a, a profession where you are

constantly, like your job is to work with other people on their stuff.

But that has to be, to me, I think it has to be kind of difficult or

something to like maintain boundaries, but also maintain care for yourself.

So is there anything you're, any practice you have or anything you

do that kind of helps you do that?

Yeah.

One I wanna highlight your giving tendencies of, of course, that you wanna

offer up something to your therapist, , even though you're paying them

Yeah.

I think sometimes people can talk about boundaries in different ways,

I always like to remove the shaming aspect of "you need stronger boundaries"

versus it sounds like you really care about others, so it might be a little

bit more difficult to navigate that space between you and another person.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so for, you, how does like.

that work?

I mean, as far as you just talking to other peop talking to people and

listening to whatever they have going on, is there anything you do outside of

work to kind of help you manage that?

Because I think even, even when you had clients, you did the same thing in a way.

I mean, I, we could have talked about that actually.

'cause a lot of times you are counseling clients, right?

But now you're like clients, meaning for graphic design and for branding and stuff.

But now it's like people who are seeing you as a therapist.

But is there any, any trick, and maybe it's something you did even

before that you used to like, maintain kind of happiness or health

in your life that you wanna share?

Yeah.

Yeah, I think there's two parts to that.

For me, there's kind of like navigating the, the boundaries within the

space and then having boundaries.

So when I'm outside of the space, I can kind of leave it there and

do some restorative practices.

So I, I think with the first is, it is tricky 'cause you're,

you're sitting in a room with.

The person that you care about and like, you wanna, you know, you,

you wanna like, take it all on and you wanna make it all better.

And, you know, that's not helpful even that instinct is there, right?

Like, no one, like the fixing instinct is because of typically your

own discomfort with the situation.

So in the space I try to be just very attuned of like how I'm feeling in my

body of noticing like am I taking on too much of this energy in a way that I'm not

allowing them to have the space necessary?

And I think some of those more like, I mean, to be blunt, like

ego things can come up as well.

Like, am I personalizing the fact that they canceled or am I personalizing

the fact that they don't wanna talk about a, a given, you know, topic,

you know, like really being like, no, this, this space is theirs.

Like, leave your ego aside and really be attuned to what's happening.

So doing that work.

In the room of really being attuned to myself, reregulating when I

need to, so I can be as present as

Hmm.

Yeah.

And then outside leaving that there and then doing

the restorative practices that I do.

I walking the talk that I talk to all my clients about doing things

that just bring me great joy.

Joy.

And part of that is being outside, you know, going for a run,

making sure that I always allow myself to have time and nature.

Doing hobbies that don't involve podcasts about trauma.

Yeah.

you know if, if you could see in the back, I have a sewing

machine that I just got at a, a tag sale that I'm really excited to bring back.

Sewing and knitting and, and cooking and things that just

are, are not for productivity or to advance my intellectual

understanding about mental health, but rather they just make me happy.

Nice.

That's cool.

Nice.

That's great.

Awesome.

So the last or the first, first question I ask of my last question, I

suppose I like to ask every guest if they have like any advice or mantra

that they like to share with people, which I know I'm not expecting you to

work right now, but if you just have something that, like a phrase you like

It's one I say a lot speaking of boundaries.

It's respectful and benevolent to let another adult human

have their own feelings.

Yeah.

And I like that.

'cause sometimes we don't want people to feel sad.

We don't want people to feel angry at us or disappointed, but letting

them process, that is the kind of respectful thing to do, even if

it makes us feel uncomfortable.

Yeah, that's, oh, that's great.

Yeah.

And especially if their feelings are towards you, it's hard, but

Oh yeah.

You know, like, oh, can you be mad at someone else?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Okay, cool.

So the last set of questions I have are a fun five.

And they're fun for me.

Hopefully they're fun for you and they're just to ask every guest.

So, uh, the first one, what's the oldest t-shirt you have and still wear?

And I don't know if I've seen you wear a T-shirt other

than for running, but anyway,

That is very true.

I have a okay.

Can a tank top count,

Yeah, that's

Same.

Okay.

It was a T-shirt and then the sleeves got cut off, but it is a Snoop Dogg shirt.

When Snoop Dogg was probably like 14 that I got at Forever 21, I

think when I was in like school

Oh my gosh

and.

Somehow it still exists.

It has like these huge gaping like arms where the sleeves were and

it's just like very oversized.

It's very, people always give me a double look when I wear it

because there's a disconnect there.

But it survived eight moves, so I feel very proud that it

still exists in my drawer.

I mean, it's almost like I would consider Forever 21 kind of

fast fashion, but this was definitely when it wasn't, I guess, because

would not be lasting, you know?

Yeah, it's holding up and it was indicative of my budget then,

Yeah, Awesome.

Alright cool.

So it, during the . Part of the pandemic where we were all inside all the time.

It did feel like Groundhog's Day, you know, where same day

repeating itself over and over.

So what song, if it was Groundhog's Day, what song would you have your

alarm clock set to play every morning?

Yeah, so I would have it's a song by Max Richter and

it's The Four Seasons Spring Number One, which is a total mouthful.

But if you've watched The Crown, there's this beautiful scene on a motorcycle

that goes through the landscape of London and it just has this music that

builds and it just totally sweeps you.

And I was trying to think of a song that I could hear every day and

not get so annoyed by, and knew there couldn't be lyrics because

the words would start to bug me.

this song just feels so beautiful, especially first thing in the morning.

It just feels very uplifting, but also calming at the same.

You know, it's funny, I, I'm pretty sure that people I know

from the pub that where I hang out saw him at Koko, and I'm pretty sure he

played there, like, and they, they went because I, now that you said that name.

So I'm definitely excited to add that.

There's a Spotify playlist.

I'm excited to add that and check it out.

Cool.

Yeah, it's smart with the words 'cause they will annoy you for sure.

Okay, so then the next question, coffee or tea or neither?

Both pending where I am, whenever I am abroad and there's a

kettle in my hotel room, I like do the tea thing 'cause it feels very proper.

Mm-Hmm.

And coffee everywhere else.

But I love them both.

They're both warming and just aromatic and wonderful.

I know.

So good.

I know.

I make tea.

Who says neither?

Oh, people do?

Because they say only water.

Oh.

Yeah.

I've never had someone say, only gin.

I'm waiting for that guest.

I think that'll be amazing.

But they say not that they have water, which is fine.

You know, people stay away from caffeine, whatever.

But I'm definitely a both or all three, like ev everything.

alright.

And then can you think of something that like either a time you laugh

or you cried and you just wanna talk about it, or something that just,

just undoes you, makes you crack up, you know, when you think of it,

I will as part of restorative practices rewatch

episodes of Fleabag just to like laugh.

I love her.

I love her character.

I love her type of humor and like, yeah.

So that just always makes me just like giggle and feel happy and all of those

Awesome.

That's great.

Yeah.

She has, I don't know if you saw, so that there's an hour long one woman

play She did of that first that you can,

I had heard that and she redid it in London like a few years ago.

Yeah

because she was at Edinburgh.

So anyway, if you can catch that, I saw it during the pandemic an online

date that I did, but literally an online date that was online, like,

and we watched Fleabag together.

But yeah.

It's cool.

Alright, the last one.

Who inspires you right now?

Katie Porter

Oh, oh my gosh, she's

TikTok has thrown me a bone and given me some, uh, content

outside of just therapy talk, which is great, it can get a little intense.

So I am also on Katie Porter talk and I am here for that.

She is amazing.

I just like love her so much.

She gives me so much hope Poli sci background for the future

accountability, and she's just wildly intelligent and poignant and strong.

Yeah.

Oh, she's fantastic.

Cool.

Awesome.

All right.

So Kileen, if you're

not a big social media person, but if someone wants to get in touch or

find out, find out more about you, or find you in a way that's healthy

and respects your physical space how do you want them to do that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Social media is tricky as a therapist.

So right now I have Instagram, but it's private So I do you

can head to the PHIIRST website which is P-H-I-I-R-S-T dot

com.

Awesome.

Well, this has been great.

It's been so fun to get to chat with you.

And also just thank you for sharing.

I'm really glad that you, you were on the podcast, so thank you.

Thanks so much for having me on, and hopefully next time

it's in person that I get to see you.

Exactly,

You can learn more about the guest and what was talked about in the show notes.

Joe Maffia created the music you're listening to.

You can find him on Spotify at Joe M A F F I A.

Rob Metey does all the design, for which I am so grateful.

You can find him online by searching Searching Rob, M-E-T-K-E.

Please leave a review if you like the show and get in touch if you

have feedback or guest ideas.

The pod is on all the social channels at at More Than Work Pod

(@morethanworkpod) or at Rabiah Comedy (@RabiahComedy) on TikTok.

While being kind to others, don't forget to be kind to

yourself.