Jay sits down with Counselor and Author, Crystal Renaud Day to discuss the surprising statistics on porn addiction among women. Crystal shares her own story, the shame associated with struggling with a "male sin" and what it took to break free.

You can find Crystal's websites, Summit, and books below.

RESOURCES

SHE Virtual Recovery Summit- October 17-21, 2022

purchase tickets here- https://shevirtualsummit.eventbrite.com/?aff=jaylowder

Crystal Renaud Day | Pastoral Counselor | Life Coach | Recovery (livingonpurposekc.com)

SheRecovery.com | Pornography & Sexual Addiction Support for Women – Help, Hope & Healing for WOMEN Struggling with Pornography & Sexual Addiction

BOOKS

Dating Done Right- Available Now

90 Days to Wholeness- Available Now

Dirty Girls Come Clean- Available Now

Dirty Girls Renewed- Available Nov 2022

Living or

welcome to this week's addition of Taboo Talk with Jay.

Louder, really fascinated today and I, I think we're talking.

A very important subject.

We have a guest today by the name of Crystal.

No, she's really an expert in this field.

She's been featured and everything from Christianity Today to

ABC News, The New York Times.

She's got a very effective ministry and she's helping women

all over the United States.

Crystal, welcome to today's podcast.

Thanks for having me, Jay.

It's good to be with you.

Yeah,

I'm really excited.

And really honestly I think today not only are, are listeners gonna be educated, but

I, I think I am and you're dealing with a, I mean, you're helping a lot of people.

With something that quite honestly, most people don't think is an issue with women,

and that's an addiction to pornography.

Of course, we know that this is an issue that men struggle with and

from all ages and all walks of life.

And of course that's been accentuated.

Really since the invention of the internet, and especially I think the

cell phone, because I know even when I was growing up, the only way that you

could view pornography would be if you were to go to a store and buy a magazine.

And a lot of people wouldn't do that for fear of being seen.

And it really wasn't something that you could do in a clandestine way.

I mean, it was rather harder to hide it than it is now where

you can view pornography from a tablet or your back pocket.

and not only that, it's really in today's society, of course we use social

media and, and I know you do as well, Crystal but we use social media for

our ministry and to get the word out.

And I know that even on social media, I mean, you don't even

have to be looking for pornography and most of it's soft porn.

But just even on social media, you.

Often stumble into pornography and not even being looking for it.

So I, I, what I'd like to do, Christo, if we may, let's just start out and,

and let's hear, We want to eventually get around to talking about your

ministry and about she recovery.

But let's start off today talking about how did you get in introduced

to pornography and how did that really translate eventually into an a.

Yeah, you know I'm 30, almost 38 years old, so my first exposure

to pornography was before the real age of the internet or social media.

I was only 10 years old when I was exposed to pornography and

was exposed by a magazine that had been left out and available.

By one of my older brothers, he had left it in his bathroom obviously by accident.

He didn't want anybody to have found that.

But I did and I was home alone and basically was flooded with kind of

this mixture of like immediate just excitement, intrigue, like what is this?

But also kind of for the first time, kinda experienced shame.

There was a feeling that came over me that said, This is

not for you and this is wrong.

And yet I wanted to still engage with it, which of course the nature, but also

it's the nature of being 10 years old.

And so I decided to that day kind of feast on this material and this

wasn't what you would consider.

Your typical Centerfold kinda Playboy magazine.

This was a more harder core magazine that that depicted actual

sexual acts between men and women.

And so it wasn't just centerfold models, this was sexual acts.

And so it really was kind of my first exposure to sex.

So my sexual education, This magazine and these sexual acts taking place on paper,

which is obviously, it's very tainted.

And I think especially some younger people don't realize that, that

pornography is not a realistic picture of what sex really looks like.

Right at all.

Mm-hmm.

. So now, now backing up a little bit, Crystal, were you a believer at this point

in your life or were you a non, a non.

. Crystal: Well, I grew up in what would

At that particular time, I, we weren't attending church.

My mom had fallen into clinical depression.

Mm-hmm.

, and she really was kinda a spiritual leader in her home.

My dad was not, and so she once, once she kind of fell into that we

fell away from church for a while.

But I do remember going to church early on, you know, in my life and,

and knowing right from wrong and kind of having that, you know, the,

the conscience of that obviously but not at that particular point.

What I truly have identified myself as like a Christ follow.

But certainly grew up with, with the right information in my, in the household.

But

it was later in life when you became a true believer.

Yes.

Okay.

So here you are and you're, you're pretty young.

You, you weren't looking for pornography.

You, you kind of stumble onto it and, and take us from there.

How, how does it unfold?

You know, it's, this is, you know, almost 30 years ago now,

kinda the whole kind of framework of what, of the progression is a little

fuzzy in terms of timeline and time.

But certainly as much as I could and as long as I could, I would engage with

whatever material I could find in the home for a number of months and years.

One day the magazine wasn't there and so I had to kind of figure

out what else can give you?

These same feelings, the same kinda high, the same, you know, intensity.

And, you know, my parents did the right things.

They had, you know, they had a code on the cable box we had once

we had internet in the house.

It was quote unquote filtered internet.

They did the things that they thought they were supposed to do with parents,

but we kids are sneaky and we, I know how to get around all of those things.

My brothers actually had, they had figured out the code to the TV a long time ago.

They shared it with me so I could watch mtv, like just all those types of.

So I was able to kind of crack the code on the tv, watch movies, watch

stuff that wasn't appropriate.

Rate my dad's movie cabinet, which he did not have pornography, but he had

movies that I knew it wasn't supposed to watch cause had nudity in them.

So I would fast forward to those movies and watch whatever I could.

And then eventually, once we did get internet in the home

filtering is only so good.

It's easily maneuvered around.

And so I was able to navigate the internet and really even at age, you know, 11,

12, 13, as internet is in our home.

I still don't have a word for what I'm looking at.

I don't like pornography was not in my vocabulary.

I didn't know what I was looking at, but it was naked people, it was

sex, it was those types of things.

So I would just look those kind of things up where I go to chat

rooms and find links that people were, were sending back and forth.

And so I would engage in this behavior for, you know, nearly

every day, at least in some parts every day throughout my adolescence.

And of course through with that came.

Compulsive masturbation.

Sometimes I would do sexual chatting online with strangers.

I would do phone sex lines whatever I could to kind of get that same

feeling, that same connection, that same drive forward with my behavior.

Wow.

And yeah, and at 15 years old, I have the opportunity to go

back to church with my mom.

She was getting well and she was, she thought we should go back to church.

And so, When started visiting a new church in town that was recently

opening and was able to engage in kind of that more, again, more religious,

more Christian influence into my life.

And so with that came a compounding shame because I, knowing that what I

was doing was wrong, but then adding on the sexual sin factor to that

compounded the shame that I experienced.

But then also, you know, I like, I can vividly remember one sermon

from the pastor, probably I was about 16, and I am hearing him talk

about pornography from the stage.

And actually he's telling me for the first time what this material is called.

And, but he's talking about pornography, which is great for a pastor.

Talk about pornography especially that at that time, this is,

you know, again, 20 years ago.

And, but he's mentioning it only to the men in the room,

you know, in the congregation.

He's talking to husbands and, you know, young.

Pornography is, is bad.

It's adultery.

It's all these things.

And it's, it's, it's not honoring to women.

It's not, you know, and all these things.

And, but I'm hearing as a 15 or 16 year old girl, you're

watching something that men enjoy.

You're watching something that men use.

And so to me it was, there's something wrong with me.

Not only am I engaging in sexual sin, but it's sexual sin that only men should be.

Or supposed to be what I'm, you know, engaging in

it's only compounds.

I'm sure you're feelings of guilt that you already have.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That compounds of shame even further.

So I have these heap, this heap of shame on me, just, you know, extra scoop on top.

And finally I decide to go to church camp and really the idea going to church

camp was the very first time that.

And this is, this is five or six years into this behavior that I really

started to realize I have a problem because my first thoughts of leaving

home for a week is I can't watch porn.

And I'm like, I can't go to camp.

I can't watch porn.

But I obviously, I couldn't tell somebody a good re good enough

excuse for why I couldn't go to camp.

So I ended up going, which I ended up being the best decision of my life.

It was at that camp experience that I genuinely came to a division of faith

and came to accept the Lord as my as.

Jesus and the Lord Savior.

Of course, I

would imagine Crystal when that happens.

So you, you, you develop a real relationship with Christ.

It's legitimate.

And now, you know, I mean, you already had those feelings of guilt, but now you

know that, okay, this has gotta stop.

But as you, you would know this, well, a lot of people with whatever

their struggle is, have that desire and say, Okay, this is not right.

I need to stop.

, but how do I do it?

Wanting to stop and being able to stop or are two different things.

So yeah.

Yeah.

Keep going here.

And

just becoming a Christian did not mean that I was without sin.

Right, Of course.

And so for me it was more of the issue of, I.

My father, my, my, my earthly father, my dad he was a good man, but he

was not available to me emotionally.

He traveled full time in his career.

And so, like, he wasn't engaged with me in a way that my young

heart needed for, for a dad.

And so this camp pastor was explaining that I have a father in

heaven who loves me and who loves me unconditionally and was available

for me whenever I needed him.

So that really was kind of, The catalyst too that did that faith

decision was, I want that, I want to know that I have a father who loves

me, loves me unconditionally, but knowing and then knowing my condition.

was a porn addict.

It was, you know, Because he loved me as I am.

Cause he loved me even as a sinner and that's what I was told he would

love me even while I'm still a sinner.

And and so obviously it did, it compounded again that shame of

like, Hey, I'm a Christian now.

I should be able to get a grip on this.

You know?

But I couldn't.

And part of that was again, that isolation of not knowing who was safe to tell this.

Because I, again, I felt like I was the only female, and so there was

something like innately wrong with me.

So if I told someone, I kind of had irrational thinking in terms like,

what would that, what would that mean?

Well, what would happen?

Would they do, would it be sent away?

Like, you know, what would happen if I, if I, if I told this?

And so really my secret became between me and God and, and I didn't

tell anyone and I prayed for the opportunity, be able to tell someone.

But it took three years for that prayer to, to come to

fruition.

And I presume that during that time that you, although you were wanting to stop,

I presume that you were not able to, that you were still struggling with conviction?

No.

Yeah.

Yes, absolutely.

I still engaged in that material and those behaviors, and really there was

kind of this, I really had this idea that if I did enough good stuff, so I

did, if I did enough church stuff and.

That maybe through osmosis like this would stop.

Like I would, I would, I would, I would lose the taste for it.

And so I would, you know, I would sing on my, on the worship team.

I would leave the, the Christian club in my high school.

I did all these things, good, godly things, hoping that I would get, become

sinless and I would get over this.

That didn't happen.

But God did intervene eventually.

And I think he probably provided other ways outta that

sensation many, many times.

But it was, My my will that didn't choose to accept them.

And I, at 19 years old, I met a woman at church at a, an

event that I was volunteering.

Who shared her story with me.

And when you tell your story, especially in the church,

sometimes we tell our testimony of faith, which is largely flowery.

I think, and we don't necessarily talk about the, the hard and

deep things that we've been through that has seen us through.

But she did she shared with me, you know, about her pornography history, her, her

years of pornography use in high school and how she was addicted to it and that

it was this whole struggle for her.

And still, but she knows kind the steps out of that temptation.

And I was dumbfounded when she told me her story.

I was like, Did she somehow know me?

Like, does she, does she know my story?

And just trying debate me.

But I really had the decision in that moment to either kind of walk away from

this opportunity to really, you know, enter into some confession or I could

just say the two, the two most powerful words in English language, which are too.

And thankfully I went with the latter and said, Me too, and

share with her my story that day.

And that really was kind of a jumping off point for me to enter into recovery.

And to fully surrender, not just the behaviors, but really the things that

were driving me back to pornography use, which are largely emotional issues,

and was able to go to counseling and have accountability and thankfully

have been porn free now for about, 17.

So when you began recovery Crystal, did you go to a person who

specialized in porn addiction, or was recovery with a, a spiritual leader,

or was it just a normal counselor?

Or how, how did you, what kind of therapy did you, did you seek for your recovery?

I don't think I have the, the thought of is there such a thing as a

sex addiction counselor at that time.

So I really just tried to find someone who would pour into me as

a person of new and growing faith.

And so I did go to Christian counseling, but with Christian mental health

counseling, not just biblical, you know, counseling was with a pastor.

It was true.

You know, Clinical counseling, working on the deeper woundedness that I'd had,

which speaking to my father, my father wounds, but also my mom, you know,

the way that, you know, her clinical depression played a role in my young life.

Just, just the isolation and loneliness and even feelings of abandonment that I

had experienced from both of my parents.

Were kind of driving that need for kinda a false intimacy through pornography.

And so I worked.

True those issues, which was really, really important.

And when you work on the kinda the four wounds of what's driving you

back to pornography, you don't need it so much anymore cause you've

worked on what's underneath it.

And so for me it really was important that I, that I worked on the true underneath

issues with a trained professional.

Right, right.

So you feel like that part of what led to this addiction was an absentee father

that your mother's clinical depression.

That you feel like because of the, the fracture in those relationships,

that's part of what caused you, that you see it as you were seeking an

intimacy, I guess, that you were not getting from your parents.

Do I understand that correctly?

I mean, it's how it started obviously.

There, there's, there's a point of, of.

Accountability and age of accountability where you know better and you're, but you,

you're an active addiction at that point.

But I think in those early years, I, I can look back and see myself,

you know, at age eight nine with an unhealthy relationship with food too.

You know, just kinda food for comfort.

And I think that when.

I found pornography replaced that and became kind of this, this false

intimacy, this false sense of affection.

Because it said that of the brain for me, and it made me feel comfort, it me

feel good even while also me feel bad.

So there's that, there's that tension between the two.

Right.

But certainly those, those core wounds are important, you know,

that they played a big part in, in.

What would have caused me to stumble into an addiction behavior.

So you feel like if, if I understand you correctly, you're

saying that that's kind of what was the launching pad, That's really kind

of what started it was that need for intimacy, but it kind of grew from there.

Yeah.

Where that maybe that were, that's what instigated it.

That's not what continued it.

Is that correct?

Yes.

Yeah, that's correct.

Yeah.

And then I, I would assume also as with any believer who's struggling

with any sin, regardless of what it is, not only is there.

This battle that goes back and forth of I'm doing something that I shouldn't do.

And not only that, but I'm a believer.

But then there's this one side that it brings some degree of comfort or pleasure,

but then there's that flip side, that there's this condemnation and this guilt.

Mm-hmm.

with.

, I'm a Christian.

I shouldn't be doing this.

I know better.

I'm a bad person.

I'm a bad follower of Christ.

I'm unworthy.

I'm assuming that you must have dealt with some of those emotions

that people deal with regardless of what their addiction is.

Just that condemnation, and I would assume even because I know in my own

life with the struggles that I've had in different areas, that some of the

things that the enemy tempts me to do that as soon as I've given to those

temptations, then he beats me up and tells me what a terrible individual I.

Absolutely a hundred percent that, That is the

tension I lived in every day.

You know,

I've been reading up on you Crystal, and I'm really fascinated and.

You know, you talked about the beginning of your story where this

pastor was talking about this addiction that men had, and obviously I'm very

uneducated in this as well because I know that it's a struggle with men.

But I really haven't realized until the last few years that there is a significant

portion of the female population that struggles with pornography addiction.

I know that, that women.

Stimulated by sight.

I, I don't think that women are stimulated by sight to the degree that men are.

I may be wrong about that.

It's just a perception that I have.

Mm-hmm.

, do you, do you, do you adhere to that?

Do you think that's correct or, because I know you've mentioned that women

seek out porn for different reasons.

But do you feel like that, that that's an accurate assessment?

That, that men probably are a little bit more stimulated by sight and women.

The motivation for women is completely different than it is for men.

I don't know.

The motivation is different.

I think that your, your assessment is correct in that men are more visually

stimulated, but I don't think that it, but women still are, you know, the degree.

Um, And I do think that if you're talking about pornography from

an addiction standpoint, I.

The core wounds are the same.

You're still medicating something, men and women both.

And but certainly there's, for women, I a more emotional component where we are

seeking a intimacy and relationship or relat connect relationally, whereas men,

you know, it is largely more physical.

Connection with what they're looking at and visual connection

with what they're looking at.

And women are more emotional, but that's how, that's how God's

created men and women differently, that we're more emotional, men are

more kinda the physical and visual.

So, yeah.

You know, I get that.

And.

On one, it, it's hard for me, and maybe it's hard for me to

understand because I'm a man.

I, I get the fact that men are, are, are visually stimulated and

that there's a satisfaction, you know, that that comes from that.

And I can even see where it makes common sense.

It's very pragmatic to think, okay, a man could, since he is visually

stimulated, could look at something visually and that fill a gap in his life.

But it's hard for me.

I, I know it's true what you're saying.

It's just hard for me to wrap my mind around how.

There is a emotional connection, you know, emotional fulfillment from pornography.

Is there any way to explain that?

Because again, it, it's, it's very practical to think that if, if what turns

you on is what you see, well then it doesn't take much other than you seeing.

But when I think of an emotional connection, I, I think of it

in the terms of communication.

I think of it in terms of tangible interaction, whereas obviously,

pornography's not that so.

Is there a way to explain how there is this emotional satisfaction that comes

about for women by viewing pornography?

Yeah, it is complicated.

I don't have the science really, you know, to, to walk you through it, but

women's brains actually are, are designed differently in that we can, we can create

and retain images and, and have, and have deep fantasy in a way that men cannot.

And so that's part of why we can think of a thousand things at once, and men

are kinda singularly focused, . It's, there's more capacity for storage

in the women's brain than there is for men, and that's just science.

I can't give you the, the citation at the moment, but I could if you gimme a second.

But.

With women, because we are more mostly connected, we have a deep

ability to retain and create fantasy.

There is a, there is such a thing as we are creating in our

minds what we are longing for.

So for women, there's this longing to be known, to be connected to, to

receive to receive love and affect.

You know, tension, affirmation, and affection are kind of those,

the things that drive us forward.

And the way that pornography hijacks that is, that it's giving us a,

a false sense of, of intimacy.

And so even though it's obviously pornography is a counterfeit of

what true biblical sexuality looks, It's still sex in that it's, it's

what we have been exposed to.

It's what we've seen at what we've experienced.

And when you are engaging this material as a woman, and I'll back up a little bit.

When you are experiencing sex in general and you're experiencing

an orgasm, sorry for to be blunt you are experiencing a, a flood of

neurotransmitter response in your.

And that's all taking place in the pleasure, in the

pleasure center of your brain.

And part of that, of that, of that chemistry mix is called oxytocin.

And oxytocin is nickname the cuddle hormone.

Cause it.

Cause it bonds you to the thing that you're looking at.

And so with pornography, you can become bonded to pornography

through the act of masturbation because that oxytocin hormone.

Is being activated.

And so you're being, you're, you're being bonded to pornography and so

largely women have been ex if you, and this also makes a difference of when a

woman has been exposed to pornography.

And what was her first exposure to pornography?

For me, it wasn't romance novels and like story and all this romance.

It was hardcore pornography, and that's unfortunately the

case for most young women today.

That's their first exposure to pornography.

It's not some romance story, It's not twilight, it's porn.

It's hardcore pornography.

And so we're becoming bonded chemically in our brains to be bonded to pornography.

Where yes, it doesn't make sense that we would.

Emotionally connected to hardcore pornography that actually demeans

and objectify and abuses women, but we are, we are becoming bonded to

it through the active masturbation and by use of pornography.

And so, does that help a little bit with kind of understanding how that works?

Yeah.

I

mean, Wow.

I, I'm, I, I'm just, it's just amazing to hear that perspective.

And I, I've never looked at it from that standpoint.

Of course, I, again, it's, I guess there's some limitation here because

obviously I'm wired different, mm-hmm.

, and for a long time I thought, I'm sure a lot of our listeners are going

to be a little surprised to hear this because I think a lot of people don't

think that this is an issue with women.

I, I, I think part of that comes from bad example, but I.

If, if, if a woman walked down the street outside of my office building here on

the 11th floor with no clothes on, I think probably there would be a lot

of men that would find satisfaction in that and would probably stare at her.

Whereas there's this thought process that on the flip side, if there

was a handsome man walking down the street with no clothes, That the

response of most women would be, Oh, you know, put your clothes on.

So , you know, it, it, it's a little difficult, you know,

to, to wrap my mind around.

I know it's true.

I've heard mm-hmm.

, I've heard this on the road as, as, as a traveling evangelist.

But yeah, it, it's, it's so fascinating to hear what the takeaway is for

men and what the takeaway is for.

And what is the motivator?

What bring, what part of it brings satisfaction?

Because although they're both, I, I, I agree with you.

Both of 'em are, are coming from core wounds.

And, and I I, I do agree that they're both being hijacked, obviously from,

from a different angle, though.

A, a completely different angle.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

, one of the comments that you made just in reading some of the articles

on you, Crystal, is you made this comment that porno is not sex.

Elaborate on that.

If you.

. Crystal: Yeah.

Pornography is not sex in that.

It's not sex as, as it's intended to be.

You know, pornography is, yes, what's happening on the screen is real.

And I want people to understand that it's not like watching a, a movie

or a television show where, where it's stimulated sexual activity.

Pornography is, it's hardcore and it's sex.

But it's not.

Biblical sexuality is that biblical sex is a counterfeit cause.

What you're seeing on, on the screen is they're not in

relationship, they're not connected.

It's just body parts coming together.

And so it's not as it attended to be, and largely that depiction

is going to be more violent.

It's going to last longer than what is real life.

The, the things that you're, you're, you're watching.

The woman is not, doesn't look like that.

She doesn't act like that.

She's, you know, in, in real sex requires consent.

If you're talking about pornography, largely these women and men who are

on the screen, they're not really consenting these to these acts.

It is an act of, of human trafficking.

They are being coerced, they're being drug or being.

And so there has to be a, an element of consent as well.

And so sex, as we should look at it, is not what is pornography sex, as we

should look at it, is what the biblical definition of sex is, which is men.

You are responsible for the sexual needs of your wife and wife.

You are responsible with sexual needs.

Your husband is giving, not receiving.

And in pornography it's all about what can I.

And how fast can I get it?

Right?

And and so that's not what sex is supposed it is or what it's supposed

to be.

Right?

Well, and I think it's important and I, I was having this discussion with

the other day I've got a younger son and there was some guys over the house

and somehow pornography was brought up and, and I made the comment, you know,

that it's important to understand.

This is that when if you watch pornography, you've gotta understand that

it is acting that kind of what you said.

This is not realistic from the standpoint of what happens between a marriage, a

committed husband and a committed wife, that these are people who are, are acting.

And so, The, the whole component of that that is missing in pornography.

And I, I think somehow people, I, I, I don't think that people really

care, but that, that the true intimacy is missing the true connectivity.

Yeah.

Which obviously is God's purpose in that, is beyond just having children,

but it's, it's the unity, it's the connectivity that comes about, you know,

even the scripture talks about in the New Testament, When two people come together,

that there's a bond that comes together.

And of course, pornography is absent of that bond.

Yeah.

Another thing, Crystal in reading information about you that,

that I, I, I find interesting is that part of your story is that.

You eventually went to a hotel room to meet someone and they knocked on

the door, if I read it correctly.

They knocked on the door, and then you kind of bailed out at the last minute

and, and decided, I guess, had a fear or, or, or what might have happened to you.

You bailed out of that situation, but mm-hmm.

What I read in the information was, is that women tend to be less successful

than men in recovery, and that women tend to be more likely to have multiple

partners, casual sex and affairs.

I'd be curious why is that?

I, I, I mean, I was a little surprised by that takeaway as well.

It, it said that roughly 81% of women who engage with

pornography will eventually escalate to an in person encounter.

And again, that goes back to the need for connection that women have the need

for, you know, to actually experience the things that they're watching because

it's not enough just to watch it.

And the same thing happens with men as well.

There's a whole, you know, men.

With prostitutes and affairs and all kinds of things, because

eventually porn is on enough.

I don't have the stats on men, but 81% of women who engage with pornography

will eventually escalate that behavior to an in person encounter.

So whether that is an affair, whether that is an emotional, it

doesn't have be an, a physical affair, can be an emotional affair.

But, you know, physical affair, emotional affair it could be sexting,

you know, anything that it's more, more of an engaged behavior where

you're engaging another human.

And again, that that speaks to their women's unique need

and desire for connection.

And then, and that one on one intimacy connection, the pornography

stopped satisfying that eventually.

And that was true for me.

You were talking about the stop story of me in the hotel room and so this was just

before I met that woman at church who shared a story with me and I really love

my rock bottom experience was I had had this these years and they were talking.

You know, nine, we're talking nine years of behavior with pornography

that did escalate into sexual chatting and phone sex and things

like that where I was connecting with people, but it wasn't, you know, it

wasn't tangible in, in front of me.

But I couldn't shake this addiction, this feeling that I needed more, I needed.

Different.

I needed to connect and on deeper level.

And so eventually I kind of came to the conclusion that I need to get it outta

my system or need to figure it out.

If that's going be the thing that will, that will take me over, over the

edge, will, will it finally be enough.

And so I went on to a a porn site and oftentimes porn sites also have,

you know, hookup links, you hookup.

As ads on them where you can basically arrange to meet up with somebody

for a hookup, a sexual hookup.

And so I went on that website.

I met somebody, chatted with them for a little bit, and we arranged

to meet at a, at a local hotel.

And the thing about this was, you know, I was a Christian.

I knew it was.

I have been told through purity culture, you know wait till marriage

to have sex and even while walking, pornography, I wore a purity ring,

you know because I felt I was chased because I was still argent.

Never mind the fact that my mind was not pure.

And even the, the behaviors I was doing were not pure, but I had my

virtue because I was a virgin, right?

In my.

And so I'm making this decision to meet this person and I'm,

I got to the hotel first.

I arranged it.

I wanted to feel like I had more control over the situation and which I didn't

but arranged it and I waited for them.

I told them what room I was in, and so they're knocking on the.

Expecting to have sex with me.

And here's the thing about this too.

This was potentially extremely dangerous, no doubt, because I

didn't know who this person was.

This person could have just been there to rape me or kill me, you

know, abduct me for trafficking.

Who knows?

You know?

So you don't know what was, what was happening with this person,

who this person really was.

And so this was a, it was reckless, it was dangerous, and it was just stupid.

And it was sinful.

And so I am, I am waiting in this room for this person to, and I'm

sitting on the edge of the bed.

I look looking of the kinda, the mirror is, is right in front of

me and I see myself sitting on this bed looking at myself in the

mirror and I just shaking my head.

I'm like, How did you get here?

How did you get to this place where, you know, a little bit of

porn at 10 years old has brought.

To this place.

And I, and I think for the very first time I've really heard,

and I've been a Christian now, you know, for about three years.

I think it was the first time I really sensed the Holy

Spirit really speaking to me.

And it was kinda that rock bottom moment where the, since I had the

impression of me that came, you know, if you, if you walk away from

this, I will provide you a way.

I have so much more for you than this, and that was really

the sense that came over me.

And so I, I just kind of collapsed, you know, I cried.

I was kinda, I really was in my desperate place at that point and

just heard the knocking and I just ignored it until they went away.

And thankfully they did go away and I was able to wipe my face and, move on.

Unfortunately, you know, I walk away from that and I still d

know what I'm supposed to do.

Like I still dunno who to what, and I'm guessing it was

within a week I that at church.

And so I do think that it was my final, it was my, it was a true surrender moment.

It was like, Okay, I'm, I'm done, but I don't know how to be

done, so I need your, and he, he provided that through that woman.

Wow.

Let me ask you this, Crystal, do you ever, in your ministry obviously

dealing with pornography addiction, do you ever deal with couples?

Because I know that there are some couples who, as a married

couple, watch pornography.

Mm-hmm.

. , Crystal: We do get quite

I would say probably the majority of our clients are single.

But I, we do get we do get women coming to us who are married fairly regularly.

I don't find that their husbands even know about it.

And that's what I find interesting.

There might have been a season where they engaged in it together, but prob,

but their husbands didn't know that they had taken that behavior to a you know,

individual level where now they are engaging the pornography without him.

Mm-hmm.

. And that's kind of what takes place is that it might start out

as they're watching it together, thinking it's going to be good for

their marriage bed, which it's not.

And that woman is now engaging in, in, in pornography by herself, engaging

in masturbation by herself, you know, no longer engaging with her husband.

Which obviously becomes a problem and becomes a problem for the men as well.

Men become hooked on porn and they interested in their wives.

Same thing happens to women, is that they end up kinda internal internalizing

with their sexual needs and they don't express them because pornography provides.

Different satisfaction.

It's a stronger bond even than what they experience with their husband.

Right.

Yeah.

I knew a couple that I, I, you know, she, they had told me we were talking

and they had broken free from that, but neither one of them, they said, watched

it independently one another, but they had watched it together in the, in

the hopes that it was going to kind of spice up their, their, their sex life.

And I just wonder if that's so, It is something that you see on a common

basis where couples do engage in that.

It sounds like from your experience, that the couples that do engage in that

eventually it translates into one or both beginning to view it independently of one

another.

Yeah.

That, that is what I see most, most frequently.

Right.

Another thing that I, I read was that 80% or close to that, close to 80% of

women who struggle with pornography of have had some form of abuse.

. And that, that figure to me was significantly higher than what

I would've expected it to be.

Yeah.

We have that statistic as well, and I think that's something that does

translate to our clientele that we see that there is some form of, of abuse

that might not be sexual, but there's some form of abuse, whether it's

physical, emotional even spiritual abuse.

Um, And sexual abuse, that there's some kind of trauma in the, in the early

childhood or adolescent that they are not satisfying medicating rather with

pornography or acting out behaviors.

And such as that.

It's, it's terribly sad and I think that if we, if we had enough men, and

this is the thing about men as well, is that men don't talk about their sexual.

At all.

So while, while women might eventually admit to a sexual abuse encounter, men

don't, and I do kind of wonder how deep of an issue it's for men as well who

are hooked on pornography or, or have, have an inappropriate sexual conduct.

How often sexual abuse is a factor in their child, in their c.

As well.

Unfortunately, child childhood sexual abuse is, is so

prevalent and so widespread.

I don't think it's just girls, it's it's boys as well.

Correct.

And but yes, I, I do think that there, there's a factor there that might cause

a, a propensity towards pornography use.

And a lot of the times you would hear from young who have experienced abuse

that they did engage with pornography.

Seeking out pornography and almost as a way to understand what happened to them.

Kind of learning, trying to figure out through research almost like

what was it that I experienced?

And so engaging in pornography And so that, that, that trauma, that

early trauma, again, speaks to the fact that wounding is what drives

the addiction forward, is that need to medicate and have that shock.

of neurotransmitter response to the brain to help you cope and to, and

to just deal with what's happened instead of dealing with really what's

underneath that and, and working through the sexual abuse issues.

Crystal, obviously, from the time that you began recovery, I mean, it was

a long road and didn't happen overnight.

How long was it from the time that you began recovery till the time that

you completely broke free from porn?

. Crystal: Um, Thankfully pornography

kind of break free from fairly quickly.

Mainly because I had accountability software put on my, on my

computer, my devices at that time.

And I had that woman at church who she became an accountability

partner and eventually a mentor and a friend to support me

through as, as an act of account.

The things that were harder to overcome were, were the masturbation

issues, which we could have a debate on whether masturbation or

not, but I consider it a problem.

And so for me it was an ongoing issue for a while.

And again, talking about women's brains fantasy, I didn't need porn, right.

To kind of create, to, to refer back to those images, to have the fantasy,

to, to accomplish the task at.

And so masturbation was harder cause that really was the thing that

actually causes the brain to respond and to have that, that the TER Center

neurotransmitter response to feel better.

And so that was the harder part for me.

I think it took, you know, off and on.

I had success with the variety with that, but it really was working through

other issues that, that helped me to eventually let that go as well.

And I would say if I, if I entered recovery at 19, I probably had

full sexual wholeness probably within 18 to 24 months from there.

Again, that's.

That's having accountability and support and him working through issues.

So if you're not doing that, if you don't have that, it's much harder.

Yeah, and I was gonna, That's what I was gonna say, that part

of the reason for your success.

I mean, obviously God played a role in that and obviously therapy did.

But yeah, that accountability was obviously a huge part of that as well.

Accountability's good for anybody?

Crystal talk a little bit.

We're gonna have listeners today, people who are believers, non believers,

and are listening to this podcast.

You have a great ministry called She Recovery.

I want you to talk a little bit about that and just also how people

could connect to SHE Recovery that may have this same struggle.

Yeah, she recovery.

It was birthed out of my own experience, my own story.

I started this ministry, it started out as a recovery group at my church in 2007.

So I've been doing this, doing this work one on one with women for.

For 15 years now, but it started out as just me and a few women in a, in a, in

a church classroom meeting eventually became what it is today we offer we

have, we're entirely virtual, so all of our services are available worldwide.

We have an online community where you can chat with women who are in your

own kind of situation and just has kinda sticking your, your tiny toe

into recovery is that online community.

And then we also have virtual recovery meetings that take place

every single day of the week.

And that is kind of sticking your whole leg into recovery.

You're jumping in your, your waist deep now into recovery working with

our ladies to facilitate those and.

They're facilitated by women who are either have, have been in

recovery for a number of years.

They either have a counseling degree or a coaching certified.

And so they are Able to help you and work through that.

It's a great time for prayer and discipleship, and again,

accountability and support.

Those meet every day of the week.

We also offer virtual counseling and coaching services as well.

If you're ready to like, like jump your whole body into the water and you're ready

to really dig into kind of the what's underneath your acting out behavior.

We have both services as well that we offer, again,

entirely virtual, all online.

So there really.

There's no, it's all telehealth for that and secure and safe, and we are ready

and able to help you out@sherecovery.com.

Man, I love what you're doing, Crystal, and I love the fact, I think

one of the problems in today's church is that, issues like this, and this is not

the only one, but there are many issues that are almost, Well, that's why we

call this taboo talk because some of the issues that should be addressed in the

church that should be talked about in the church are not, and I think this is one

of those issues, and I love the fact that.

You're doing what I believe God wants everybody to do, which is

take their pain and take their story and use it as a sounding board, as

a platform to help other people.

I think that's biblically true from Second Corinthians one, three, and four,

where it talks about that God gives us help so that we can transfer that help to

other people who have the same struggles.

And I think your ministry is extremely important.

I think there's a lot of people who don't understand that this is not just

a man issue, that this is an issue with.

and that it should be talked about and that there is help available and just

kudos to you much respect, Kristen, as we kind of wrap this thing up today I

know that obviously recovery's important and accountability's important and a

network of other people who can relate and understand, but I also know that

part of the reason that you were able to break free and, and find this freedom

is because of your relationship to.

I know people, especially who listen to this podcast, who are believers,

regardless of what their struggle is, have gone through some of the

same condemnation guilt, where they feel as though they're a failure.

They can't seem to get success.

over the issue at hand, but what would you say to people from a spiritual context,

Crystal, who are struggling with this?

Who, who are believers, who are sensing the guilt and

condemnation, who maybe feel there?

There is no escape, or I'm afraid to come out and I'm afraid to tell anybody.

Where would I go?

Who would I talk to?

What would you say to them from a spiritual perspective?

I mean, you and I both know that the scripture teaches that the

son of God came to set people.

But is there anything that you would say from a spiritual context?

I mean, I know your relationship with Christ just played a huge role in who

you are today and the success that you're having in ministry and the help

that you're able to give to others.

But I just wondered if there's anything that you would say from a spiritual aspect

to people who are struggling with this.

Maybe it's in regards to guilt.

Maybe it's in regards to condemnation.

Maybe it's in regards to forgiveness.

Yeah.

Scripture tells us there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus.

So the condemnation and the shame that you feel are not from God?

That that's something that I had to learn myself is, is to really discern

the voice of God from the voice of the enemy who is speaking over me.

Cause even in recovery, There was a point where I was like, I can't help others.

I can't be in, I can't be in ministry.

But there's no condemn, no condemnation in Christ Jesus.

There is wholeness and help and hope in Christ Jesus.

And so if you're experiencing shame and you have this voice in your mind

saying that you're dirty, that you're bad, that God doesn't love you, that

you are too far from God to come.

That's, that's a lie.

It's a lie from the pit of hell.

And it's not what Christ is saying to you.

Christ is saying, Come to me.

Come back to, and I will give you rest for your weary spirit, because

I've experienced that for myself.

And the thing that you're struggling with, pornography, all of these, those other

just behaviors, it's not who you are.

Your identity is not, I'm an addict.

My, your identity is not, I am a sinner.

Your identity is, I am a and I'll speak to women who are listening.

You are a blood bot daughter of Jesus Christ.

You are fearfully and wonderfully made.

You are the the head, not the tail.

And you are able to, through the help of the Holy Spirit and through

the help of others, find freedom.

And if it was true for me, it's true for.

And there are resources, resources available to help you take those

next steps in front of you.

Well, Crystal, that's a great word.

And it's especially to those ladies who have a relationship to Christ.

And I would add for those that maybe listen today that don't

have a relationship to Christ.

You may remember earlier Crystal talked about that there was a

fracture in the relationship with her father and that maybe initially

that this may have instigated.

Wanting that, that father figure, that relationship that

she didn't have with her dad.

I would say to those that are listening today as I on top of what Crystal's

already said, that if you don't know Christ, that there is a father who

does seek a relationship with you regardless of your baggage, regardless

of your struggle, regardless of even your addiction, that, that he loves you

and that he wants to set you free and.

He wants to connect with you.

And the way that he does that is simply by your willingness to turn to

him asking for forgiveness, believing that he died for you, that he rose

again, believing that when he hung there on the cross, he was hanging.

Not just so you could have a ticket to heaven, but so that you could know

him intimately in a personal way.

And that he says that if you would be willing to come to him to simply

call out and put your faith in him and him alone, that he would heal.

And he would forgive you and even restore your crystal.

So much respect to you.

Thank you so much for what you're doing to help people with this addiction.

I hope many people will reach out to you again.

That website is, Say it again, one more time.

Crystal for our listeners.

Yeah.

It's She Recovery, so just like she as in com.

And if I can just real quickly.

Just promote our summit.

We have a virtual summit, so if you're looking for kinda a next step on your

recovery or to learn more about these issues we do have a virtual summit.

It's entirely online for women, for teen girls, parents, counselors, church

leaders to learn more about these issues and to get the help that they.

Taking place October 17th to the first two, and we'd love to see you there.

Crystal.

Thanks so much.

Continued blessings on you and what you're doing.

Thank you for being a voice, especially in an area where a lot of people are

afraid to come out and talk about it.

And

you for having me, letting me share about it.