Welcome to another bonus episode of How Art is Born Season, continuing our reflection on some highlights from season 2. We had ten amazing, insightful, and inspiring guests on our show this season that we wanted to relive some of those moments. In this episode of How Art is born we’re revisiting some highlights from the last five episodes of season 2 with guests, Cami Galofre, Sofie Birkin, Maia Ruth Lee, Finnegan Shannon, and Eric See. We hope you love listening back to these moments as much as we did.

Dele Johnson:

Hey! This is producer and editor Dele Johnson welcoming you to another bonus episode of How Art is Born Season 2, continuing our reflection on this past season. We had ten amazing, insightful, and inspiring guests on our show this season that we wanted to relive some of those moments. In this episode of How Art is born we’re revisiting some highlights from the last five episodes of season 2 with guests, Cami Galofre, Sofie Birkin, Maia Ruth Lee, Finnegan Shannon, and Eric See. We hope you love listening back to these moments as much as we did.

To start us off, we’re revisiting an interview with artist Cami Galofre. Alan and Cami’s conversation touches on creating art from a place of optimism, the intersections of art and commercialism and capitalism, and how Cami defines success for herself as an artist.

R. Alan Brooks:

Today I'm joined by Denver based visual artist and educator, Cami Galofre. Say hello.

Cami Galofre:

Hi.

R. Alan Brooks;

Alright Uh, I guess to start us off, can you tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do?

Cami Galofre:

Yeah. Um, I'm a visual artist. I am foremost a painter. You could say that's my trade. Um, but lately I've been working with a lot of installation art, which has been really exciting to kind of work beyond the picture plane. Um, but a little bit of background on myself. I'm originally from Columbia, born in Bogota. Uh, and I grew up in Quito, Ecuador.

R. Alan Brooks:

Oh, okay.

Cami Galofre:

Yeah. So Latina, here,

R. Alan Brooks:

Were you, uh, well since we're starting now, let's talk about like, uh, did you, did you get involved in art? Well, I guess my first question is what was the first art that moved you in your life?

Cami Galofre:

Mm.

R. Alan Brooks:

And it doesn't have to be like a specific thing you could say, like a type or a period or whatever.

Cami Galofre:

No, I actually do have a specific Oh, yeah. Like, like memory triggered .

R. Alan Brooks:

Oh, cool.

Cami Galofre:

Yeah. Um, weirdly enough, um, my parents had this painting and it was of like a plaza you could say, full of like different people and colors. And it was like, the people were very abstract, so it was kind of like a big picture. And I remember sitting in front of it for hours. And my dad would sit with me, my mom would sit with me and I would just sit in front of it and just like, imagine like the story that that piece was, was telling. And it was kind of like a folk art piece. You could say, um, who knows where that painting is? They probably still have it, honestly, cuz it meant so much to me when I was like a toddler.

R. Alan Brooks:

Well why do you, what do you think spoke to you about it? Like what

Cami Galofre:

I, I think a lot of it was like the colors and like, it was so abstract, but I could still put myself into it. Huh. And so like, there was like a lot of movement. I don't know what was so magical about it. But I still, like, it's one of those things that as a kid I have, I have that as like one of my first memories. And I can still visually see it in my head. And I guess that's probably the first art piece that truly moved me .

R. Alan Brooks:

That's cool. Okay. So. Was there a point for you where you were like, I'm gonna do that? Or was it like always with you that you wanted to create art?

Cami Galofre:

I didn't know, I think at that time that I wanted to create art. My mom is an artist. Oh, okay. And so I've always been around. What

R. Alan Brooks:

Kind of art did your mom do?

Cami Galofre:

Um, a lot of, um, craft pieces. Um, actually don't know how to answer that. . Um, yeah, she, yeah. Mostly craft, I guess you could say. Um, but she would do like decorative pieces, that's the word. So she would do decorative work and, um, for either like other people's homes or whatnot. But she was really skilled in creating realistic pieces as well. So I grew up in a studio. Um, so she had her own studio and I would always see her like paint or draw, um, or make costumes for me. So she was very crafty, very artistic. And I think that's just kind of like something that I always like look towards, but I didn't really know that it was like an actual, like, career path you could say. Um, cuz she also, she was an architect by trade. I see. So that's what she did Yeah. As a job. Yeah. So I kind of like got that from her. But when I was little I was like, I just wanna be an astronaut. I don't know. I was like, living in the space. I'm an Aquarius, so I was in the stars. Yeah.

R. Alan Brooks:

Um, do you have a message in mind when you're creating art? Or is it just completely open and you're okay no matter how people interpret it?

Cami Galofre:

Yeah, I think I'm gonna answer that question a little bit backwards. Okay. Um, just because something came to mind. Yeah. I think that something that I've always up until recently kind of came to terms with Uhhuh, um, was the idea that art and good art should come from a place of pain or hurt. Or whatever. And there is a lot of incredible art that comes from those places. My art has always come from a really, with a place around positivity and not one that is meant to be like, I'm not trying to tell you to smile or be happy or whatnot. You know, I'm not trying to like, say anything particular about that, but in my experience, the best work I've ever done has always been when I'm like clear minded, positive, engaged with it. So in terms of like a message and what I'm trying to say a lot of the times is to pay attention, relax, enjoy, and like let the, let the vibe like welcome you, I guess. Which is why I've led a lot to like this installation art, because I can do that a little bit more obviously. Um, but

Cami Galofre:

Um, there are different themes that go into my work that are a little, you can say a little bit more academic. But without all that BS in a way. Like, I think that making art from a positive place that is just something beautiful and emotional in that positive way is important.

R. Alan Brooks:

Well, it's interesting that you bring that up. Cause I, I find that people, um, don't always recognize that being optimistic is a choice and it requires a particular type of strength. You know, particularly if you are aware of the world around you. Uh, I think a lot of times people think that optimism is, um, it comes from ignorance or weakness.

Cami Galofre:

Or privilege.

Cami Galofre:

Um, so I'm kind of like in this transition place in my studio practice where I'm trying to work on different things and new things that without the stress of how they're gonna be received. In a way, But that's very recent granted.

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah. Well now you bring up a lot of really interesting things, right? Because there's this whole idea of, um, art as commerce, right? Because I, especially I would say in America, it feels like we're, uh, raised with this idea that art has no value unless you can sell it or make a lot of money off of it. And, um, I think it is good to present the paradigm that if you don't want to create art to sell, then you can just work a job and create art because it's healing to you. Or, um, cause it's cathartic to you And then sometimes that paradigm shifts, sometimes you wanna sell more of it, you know? Like, it just kind of depends.

Cami Galofre:

And it's always like a, a give and take and a balance. And, you know, I always tell friends that are like, "Oh, I just make art as a hobby." And it's great because like, I also make art as a hobby, Right? Like, what distinguishes me from you is that maybe I've sold a couple more pieces that you , but we're all artists and we're all creating. And it just depends how much time you're able to put into the work, how much time you're able to put it out in the world as well Um, but it is a balance of switching between that, you know? I mean, capitalism is a very real thing, so we have to think about that,

R. Alan Brooks:

It is, yeah.

Cami Galofre:

And in the most purest form, we like to make art because we wanna make art .

R. Alan Brooks:

Right. Right. And if you decide to make a living at it, then you can approach it differently. You know, like I have friends who, uh, are like big indie comics people, um, so, you know, like some of the hallmarks of indie comics is that they're largely, they're less accessible art-wise, less accessible story-wise. You know, just a lot of like, um, it's not like reading Superman or something right. And it's fine. Like it's great. But I think if you are making those kind of comics but are mad that you're not doing Superman sells, then you may maybe think differently about how you approach it you know?

Cami Galofre:

It's like how you, how you think about commercialism With your own work.

R. Alan Brooks:

And how much of it can you, how much of it can you engage in and still hold onto your voice. You know, which is always a difficult balance.

Cami Galofre:

Yes. Because you get to a commercial point where you're like, Oh no. Or the opposite where you're like, no one gets me . So it's like a nice balance.

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah. And I guess how all of that really ends up being sort of the journey as an artist. Hmm. Okay. So you said that, uh, when you were a kid you didn't necessarily think of yourself as an artist. Uh, when, when was the point that you decided, Oh, I'm gonna do this, or it means something to me?

Cami Galofre:

Yeah. Um, I don't think is that, I didn't know that I was an artist. I think I've always been creative and I always had art. And so I think when I was a kid and growing up and whatnot, art was always something that perhaps I took a little bit for granted because I was naturally talented. Um, through like whatever validation or praise you could say. But I was also really proud of whatever works I did in high school or whatnot. When I went to college, I really wanted to pursue science. Had an amazing science teacher in high school and just opened this world for me. And I thought it was so cool.

R. Alan Brooks:

What kind of science?

Cami Galofre:

Just biology. And so I was always like, Oh, biology, ecology, like, you know, the ocean. Like anything that had to do with that I was like.

R. Alan Brooks:

Sounds like the elements of your art.

Cami Galofre:

Yes. . Exactly. Um, so I, I did wanna explore that and like, I love seeing nature documentaries even to this day because they're so fascinating to me. Um, and then in college I had the opportunity to go to a liberal arts school so I could explore different things. And my schedule always ended up being like science and art. Science and art. I took chemistry

R. Alan Brooks:

Cami Galofre:

And I was like, this might not work for me. . And it's not that I didn't like chemistry. My just tiny little brain could not get through some concepts. And I still have a degree, like a minor in environmental science from that. But it was one of those things where I'm like, you know what, why don't I major in what I'm good at and see what happens. And the thing with art is that there's no clear trajectory, right? There's no path on how to become an artist. There's things that I eventually kind of played around, again with this idea of commercialism and capitalism. It's like, how can I apply my creativity to a job that would give me some money. And so I went through like maybe potentially architecture, maybe potentially graphic design. And I kind of just thought through all of that and I just came- kept coming back to painting and I was like, I can't work for a client. Like I can't work for somebody else. I have to make it for myself. I wanna have the creative choices for my myself

R. Alan Brooks:

I'm, I guess I'm really fascinated by you being in this period of creating work that is personally fulfilling , um, what feels like a success to you? You know, like when something's finished, how do you like or does that even matter to you?

Cami Galofre:

I think a successful work for me would be something that, I mean, it's so, so basic, but something that just like makes me relax a little bit or like, or like smile or like, or like whenever I'm impressed by myself, I guess it's just like, oh hell yeah. That was successful in whatever ways. Um, but I think in working with the self fulfillment, I wanna leave room for play and experimentation. And that's something that maybe the goal isn't success. The goal might be just to trust that process, as cliche as that sounds. And maybe the success is learning from that process right now currently.

R. Alan Brooks:

That is great. I think that cuz that, that applies to like, even life, right? The idea of, um, seeing the value in the journey , you know, cuz like we can always be very focused on when I get to X when I reach this point, you know, then I'll finally be happy Yeah. When most of life is the journey.

Cami Galofre:

Absolutely. Yeah.

R. Alan Brooks:

Thank you for taking the time to talk to me. I really appreciate it.

Cami Galofre:

Thank you!

Dele Johnson:

Our next interview was with Denver-based, British-born illustrator Sofie Birkin. Sofie has worked with clients like Apple, Google, Nike, and Planned Parenthood. You can also find her work in Meow Wolf’s Denver location, Convergence Station. Alan and Sofie talk about how she got into illustration in the first place, her creative process, and themes she explores in her work.

R. Alan Brooks:

Today I'm joined by Denver based illustrator, Sofie Birkin. Say hello.

Sofie Birkin:

Hello.

R. Alan Brooks:

Okay. So Sofie, to start us off, can you tell us a little bit about who you are?

Sofie Birkin:

Yeah. I am a British illustrator and I've lived here for about eight years and I've been working as an illustrator for about five years. And I guess I'm also an artist, but I'm only just learning to call myself that

R. Alan Brooks:

. Well, okay, so that's interesting. What is the distinction for you between illustrator and artist?

Sofie Birkin:

I think illustration, I don't wanna say illustration is inherently commercial because I really love, and I respect illustration as an art form, but I think that there's a very big element of design to it where it's like for a purpose and it's meant to illustrate something, right? Tell a story in some way and to convey information. Whereas I feel like fine art doesn't automatically have to do that, right? It can, but I feel like there is a little bit more kind of leniency with it. And I love both very much. But I feel like it, because I used to work at a graphic design agency and my background was in fashion design and just that whole kind of design world that working, creating art to a brief is something I've done for a long time. Something I'm really comfortable with and pushing myself out of my comfort zone to make much more personal work that's more vulnerable and maybe not as pleasing to everyone automatically is something I just really wanna make myself do now. Yeah.

R. Alan Brooks:

Do you find that you're taking, so all the work that you've done before, you said to a brief, it was something where somebody gave you some description and had to serve some function.

Sofie Birkin:

Right. Exactly.

R. Alan Brooks:

So now in creating your personal stuff, are you writing out a description of what you want or how are you approaching it?

Sofie Birkin:

It's funny. I actually do that and I hadn't thought about it in that way, that I am essentially writing a brief for myself, , because I feel like anytime I want to do something, there's always a lot that I have been learning about around it. It's like something I take a really big interest in. And then because I have so many thoughts, I just want to contain them all within one place and try to understand myself better. So I do end up writing out, I guess, the way I would want to describe a piece of work once it was finished. And kind of going backwards from that.

R. Alan Brooks:

So your illustration stuff, , is that digital or traditional?

Sofie Birkin:

It's all digital. Yeah. And I love digital illustration. Yeah. I'm not trying to get away from it, but I think something I really enjoy about it is how well it can translate to other mediums. Whenever I do murals, , I create digital illustrations and then project and paint them so they're super clean and I know exactly what they're gonna look like.

R. Alan Brooks:

Well, okay. So when I'm looking at your art, I notice that there's very, well, it has a very distinct voice even though you're illustrating, as you described it, it's still very much your voice in a strong way and highly emotive, powerful colors, that kind of stuff.

Sofie Birkin:

Thank you.

R. Alan Brooks:

Oh, no problem. But I wonder how you got there? What kind of started you down this path? What spoke to you in the early days of art?

Sofie Birkin:

I think when I was, So I got very, very lucky with my old job because I was originally trying to do, like, lean more towards a graphic design. And my boss at the time was like, Hey, you're pretty good at drawing. Do you want try being our illustrator? And I was like, Fuck yeah, that sounds awesome. And so I got tons and tons of practice in, but I was working in different styles all the time. They, like, our kind of art director and creative director would figure out the direction they wanted to take, and they would give me a lot of source material of a lot different artists. Maybe it was historic stuff or just someone else's, and just be like, do this kind of a thing, which was great, and a really good learning experience. And then I got to a point where, I mean, I have this Pinterest board that's illustration inspiration that has about 9 million images in it. And I started to feel really itchy about, Oh, there's all this work I love so much, and I don't feel like I have a distinctive voice at all. And I started trying to develop it and seeing what I liked in other people's work, not in the way of copying it, obviously, but just all these different elements of what I really like, how this person frames up their figures and the way this person uses color online and just kind of spiraled from there. And I think, yeah, it's developed over time, obviously.

R. Alan Brooks:

Well, this is really interesting cause I feel like a lot of artists in various disciplines are like, How do I discover what my voice is? And so for you it put together the things that resonated with you, , and then processed them through your own creative soul. Yeah. And this is what came out

Sofie Birkin:

Very, I think I undertook it very methodically. Yeah.

R. Alan Brooks:

Do you feel like that's sort of a common theme with how you approach your art?

Sofie Birkin:

Definitely. Yeah, I know. I think part of the reason I've been so hesitant to call myself an artist for so long is when I was in more formal art education, even in high school and things like that, the way that I understood art and was taught to understand art was as this very kind of loose free process and you know, see artists in movies and they're just throwing paint at canvases, and it's this raw expression of emotion. And I kind of don't really think like that. And I think a lot more not, how do I phrase this in a good way? I like to put things in boxes. I could never make a sketchbook that was just amazing drawings and pictures and just this big collage. It was always kind of neatly laid out. And I really thought that was to my detriment. And I think when I realized, no, I can use that to my advantage and make that work to create what I wanna create, is when I started being able to develop my own stuff.

R. Alan Brooks:

That's cool. You're really touching on something. So I find a lot of artists, because inspiration is so unwieldy and unpredictable, they're afraid that any type of technique that's put on top of it, or any type of order or formality is mathematizing the art too much and it will take away the purity of it.

Sofie Birkin:

Right, exactly.

R. Alan Brooks:

I run into that with writing. For me, I have to outline things very formally in the way that you're describing. But then I tend to think of the outline as a map if, and I decided we were gonna drive to Mexico or something like that, right. We could plot out where we're gonna go, but while we're following that plot, we can say, "Oh wait, there's a sign that says world's biggest piece of yarn," and we can stop and be Check that out.

Sofie Birkin:

Yeah, exactly. That's exactly how I like to go on vacation.

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah. . Well, so when you are coming up with a formal plan for how you approach art, do you find new things, new things come up in the actual execution of it?

Sofie Birkin:

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, there's this piece, collection of pieces I guess, that I've been working on and just thinking about, I mean, kind of daydreaming about for the better part of two years. And the whole time I was kind of concepting it, I want, is that a word? Concepting? Conceptualizing is what I meant to say. The whole time I was conceptualizing it, I was thinking it was gonna be kind of quilts. And I started putting it together and I was like, I want so much more going on here, because now I'm looking at all these other fabric artists and I'm like, why not bring all of these historically feminized crafts in? Why not do bead and embroidery and painting on leather and things like that? So yeah, I think once you start rolling on something, your idea changes a million times and snowballs into something much bigger than it starts as.

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah, okay. Yeah. So for me, structure is a way to execute or to carry me forward into places, because you know, can't depend on inspiration. It's fleeting by nature. And so there's so many people who come up to artists and are like I have an idea for a thing, and this idea's revolutionary, I just need somebody to do to make it. But the idea's not the hard part, the making it is the hard part.

Sofie Birkin:

Absolutely.

R. Alan Brooks:

So what kind of themes are you finding yourself interested in exploring as an artist now?

Sofie Birkin:

Obviously all of my work is very queer and I feel like that is what people most often want to talk to me about. Yeah. But yeah, I feel like anything I made would be . You know what I mean? Even if I was like, I'm gonna do fantasy comic strips, they would still be super queer. Cause that's just the world around me , and that's my people. But one of the big themes that I'm super interested in at the moment is domestic labor and the overlap between domestic labor and artifice and industry . I'm like, how can I summarize this without going off on a huge tangent for an hour? , I think it's really interesting that we have this whole kind of mid century period that we think about as this relic of the past where you have all this new technology being developed and it's all described as being able to liberate women from the burden of domestic labor.

You've got washing machines and Jell-O and things like that, but what they're really doing is they're just raising the bar. So it's like this will stop you from having to do all this housework, but what they're doing is then they're selling you this idea of what a clean house should be or what a good mother should be. So you have Jell-O being like, We have this amazing convenience food. Are you tired of standing over the stove and cooking for hours? This will be so quick and easy, but they're advertising it with this incredible towering jello monstrosity with shrimp climbing up the sides and something that would take fucking hours to make. And it's all kind of under this veneer of artifice, these ads that you look at from the fifties of happy housewives and things like that. And I think we're all familiar with those images and some of them are so explicitly misogynist that they're self satirizing.

So we can look at them and it's easy to try and create distance and be like, Oh my God, can you believe we used to be like that? But I think that that pattern has repeated itself with every generation because if you look at the eighties, you have women overwhelmingly entering the workforce more than ever before. And there's this idea of this kind of bombshell in a power suit who can have it all. But under the surface of that women were doing just as much domestic labor as before, doing both things. And then you have beauty standards and diet culture skyrocketing. So it's this burden of labor has actually been increasing. And then you come to now, and there's this thing that I've seen people calling the fourth shift of you're doing, the women are still statistically doing the majority of the housework still generally in the workforce there are still all these kind of beauty standards to a adhere too.

But then on top of that, there's the burden of emotional labor of being a therapist and a mother to a partner. And I just think you look at that now and I think about all these kind of family influences and you have these very fucking hardworking women who are filming themselves, making all these beautiful lunches for their children and their husbands and neatly stacking name brand products in these little boxes that you can buy on their Amazon storefront. And it's a full-time job on top of a full-time job. And it's seen as really glamorous and aspirational. And I'm just, the way that those all connect to each other and the way that pattern keeps repeating itself, but we still try to distance ourselves from it is really interesting to me. So that's what the things I wanna make are about.

R. Alan Brooks:

That was a good explanation.

Sofie Birkin:

I'm sorry if that was very long.

R. Alan Brooks:

Hey, well Sofie, I appreciate you taking time to talk to me.

Sofie Birkin:

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah, it was a cool conversation. , this was your first time talking to a microphone

Sofie Birkin:

I know, it's very big, thank you,

R. Alan Brooks:

.

Sofie Birkin:

That's a stupid thing to say.

Dele Johnson:

R. Alan Brooks:

Today I'm joined by Salida, Colorado based artist Maia Ruth Lee. Please say hello.

Maia Ruth Lee:

Hello, . Thanks for having me.

R. Alan Brooks:

I appreciate you being here. So, uh, Maia, just to start us off, can you tell us a little about who you are?

Maia Ruth Lee:

Well? Um, I am a mother. I'm an artist. Um, I currently live in Colorado, um, as of two and a half years ago. And, um, I'm a thinker. Uh, I like to make stuff. Um, and I, yeah, that's, that's about it.

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah. No, I mean, I think that's a good baseline. So I wanna know, uh, what, what was sort of your, do you remember the first time that art spoke to you in a particular way or inspired you?

Maia Ruth Lee:

You know, it's funny how art or, or how I was introduced to art. Um, it wasn't really introduced to me as art, but it was introduced to me through culture and I guess living. But yeah, I grew up in Kathmandu, Nepal. Okay. And just by being in Nepal was just full of inspirations, um, through, uh, celebrations, through tradition, um, just walking the street, just knowing Nepali people, um, their traditions, um, and their religion. It was just part of life, I think. And just by, by being there, by growing up, being there at such a young age mm-hmm. , um, I was there from about five years old until 18. Okay. So it was kind of the most spongy years, you know? Yeah.

R. Alan Brooks:

Like formative years, definitely.

Maia Ruth Lee:

Mm-hmm. , I really soaked it all in. That was my introduction to sort of creativity, I think.

R. Alan Brooks:

Okay. So that's interesting. Um, the idea that it wasn't introduced as art that you absorbed through culture. So I guess what specifically moved you? What, what did you feel most connected with in all of that?

Maia Ruth Lee:

I was really moved by, um, mostly people, but, you know, it really, you know, art wasn't hanging on the walls in museums or galleries. I had very little access to anything like that. Um, and Catman do, now, there are a number of museums and contemporary art galleries, but when I was there in the late eighties and nineties mm-hmm. , that just wasn't a thing, you know? Right. So for me, it was really just by participating in the everyday activities in life and by being around people. Um, you know, I grew up watching Bollywood and Yeah. Eating the poly food and, uh, walking by temples and secretly joining in, in ceremonies. Um, and, you know, in Nepal, art is prevalent in the by way of religion in terms of, you know, uh, monasteries, murals, um, Tonka paintings, crafts and arts. So it was really just like everywhere. Everywhere I turned to was like a beautiful shrine. Right. Uh, you know, kind of decorated with, you know, incredible ornaments. And I would turn around, there would be a beautiful temple with like beautiful ceremonies. Um, the streets were filled with color and, and beautiful sense. And to me, I, that was it. It's wild to think back on how that was my everyday life. Um, yeah. And only by leaving did I actually realize how unique and special that was.

R. Alan Brooks:

I, I wonder, uh, was there a clear moment for you where, uh, you decided you were going to make your own art, or whether you identified it's art? Or was that just kinda always like an organic thing for you?

Maia Ruth Lee:

Um, it's funny because, you know, I think my parents being very conservative Christian, I think in their mind they really wanted to rear me towards that direction. But we just happened to be living in Nepal where it was so rich with culture . And so it was impossible for them, you know, it was just like I was seeped in it. Um, but I remember, you know, I think as part of their, uh, just sort of more like didactic or kind of more of like a disciplinary, um, uh, approach, they put me into an art school, which wasn't actually an art school. It was, um, a monastery where Buddhist monks painted Tonka paintings. ,

R. Alan Brooks:

Huh. Wow.

Maia Ruth Lee:

The Tonka paintings, if you're not familiar with it, they're, um, a style or a type of painting that is done by, uh, Buddhist monks and used for very specific, um, like meditation processes or, you know, depictions of deities in Gods mm-hmm. . Um, and they're beautifully painted in terms of like, you know, they, it's, it's prepared for days. The pigments are all natural. Um, the brushes are used with, you know, horse hair or yak hair, and, you know, these monks actually, uh, sit and paint these beautifully elaborate paintings for over the course of three, sometimes six months. So it becomes part of their meditation process. So they kind of like ushered me into this process mm-hmm. . And during that time, I just remember at first I was like, oh my God, like how am I gonna sit through this? I have to like, draw line by line. It's very delicate process. Right. Um, and then through it, I feel like I kind of gained this confidence of, oh, I kind of get it, you know, um, this is a really beautiful process and I was very young at the time, so, um, I think they accidentally put me into this situation where I became more connected with, with, with Buddhism or the process of, of art making in that kind of spiritual realm. So I think that was my first connection to art making in a way.

R. Alan Brooks:

Hmm. Okay. So you had this education in arts, um, that obviously, uh, taught you some things. And then you had the 10 year break. You come to New York, you come back into it. How did you find what your medium was gonna be or what kind of art you wanted to make?

Maia Ruth Lee:

I started just like, you know, looking for materials that were accessible to me. The very first piece I made, can I explain it to you?

R. Alan Brooks:

? Yeah. I Believe in you.

Maia Ruth Lee:

I actually ended up showing it at the MCA Denver 10 years after. Okay. But the first piece I ever made, um, um, you know, I had this, it was, it was actually from a dream. Really? Okay. I had a dream. I walked into the studio of this person I know. And she had this zine that she made, you know,

R. Alan Brooks:

Uhhuh.

Maia Ruth Lee:

And each page was heat sensitive. So you would touch it and the colors would change. Yeah. It was like this really tripped out thing. And I was like, oh my God, that is so smart. I wish I had thought of that. Huh. And I woke up from that dream and I was like, oh my God, it was a dream .

R. Alan Brooks:

I can do this,

Maia Ruth Lee:

I can do this. And so I started researching if anything like that existed, like Right. Heat sensitive thermal chromic materials. And ala Yes, there is, there is, you know, fabrics, papers that change color with touch. And so I thought about it for a while and I decided to make an installation, which was basically a electrical heat blanket plugged in on the wall

R. Alan Brooks:

Okay.

Maia Ruth Lee:

And laid over. It was the thermo chromic fabric, which was in different colors, say red, which you laid over the electrical heat blanket. The part that changes color is the wire that's embedded in the electrical heat blanket. And the wire looks like a wine, like a snake.

R. Alan Brooks:

Like a s Yeah. Or,

Maia Ruth Lee:

And it just goes like this, you know, curly. Yeah. And that part turns to blue, for example.

R. Alan Brooks:

Uh,

Maia Ruth Lee:

And that was it.

R. Alan Brooks:

Huh.

Maia Ruth Lee:

And I was like, I have no idea what this is . Like, what the fuck am I supposed to do with this now?

R. Alan Brooks:

?

Maia Ruth Lee:

But that was my first piece I made in New York. And yeah. I remember just being like, I'm just gonna try stuff out. Huh. I'm just gonna like experiment, you know, pick up materials, but whatever I could afford too

R. Alan Brooks:

I hear your exploration in, in these pieces. So I'm interested about what it meant to you. Right. Because, um, I'm talking to a lot of artists who had a lot of struggle with believing that they were an artist and, um, then have a struggle with thinking that their art should, should do something, um, and what, whatever that is, whether it's, um, share a message with the world or, uh, whatever, you know. But it seems like for you, the creation of the art is a large part of what is, uh, significant to you. Is there, is there something else?

Maia Ruth Lee:

I think that's, I mean, you know, again, it kind of stems from curiosity first. Mm-hmm. , I almost, it's, you know, when I see or maybe come up with maybe an idea, I have to try it out,

R. Alan Brooks:

Huh.

Maia Ruth Lee:

Like, is is it gonna work? Like, is it gonna look okay? Um, and then, you know, there's like a bunch of things I've tried that have never seen the light of day because it sucks, you know, . Um, but I think by trying out and experimenting it invokes like this playfulness.

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah.

Maia Ruth Lee:

That is very, um, private for me, I think.

R. Alan Brooks:

Hmm.

Maia Ruth Lee:

And if that reaches outside of myself, then awesome.

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah.

Maia Ruth Lee:

You know, that's like, I, I couldn't, I couldn't be more happy.

R. Alan Brooks:

I love that.

Maia Ruth Lee:

But if I'm able to keep that for myself, that's also very special for me.

R. Alan Brooks:

That's a really cool place to be as a creative person.

Maia Ruth Lee:

I think so. And I try to remind myself that, you know, as I get older and I kind of, you know, accumulate more experiences, I don't want to lose that, you know, approach of, of, of playing.

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah. I gotta say my, the, your approach to it is, uh, very, um, it's inspiring honestly, cuz I, I feel like you're forgiveness or, or gentleness with yourself, like allowing yourself to just create and not, not, uh, feel like you have to fit into some standard, or it just seems like you just let your creation be your creation. And, uh, I just think it's cool. Thank you. Giving your air high five air high five days. Yeah. .

Maia Ruth Lee:

Thank you. Um, I feel blessed, you know, um, because with that comes a lot of support and people that love you, um, because, you know, I'm not saying that I'm, you know, I don't have my days when I think everything is bullshit, you know?

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah. Right.

Maia Ruth Lee:

And I wanna throw everything against the wall, but I'm, you know, I think I've been blessed enough to have a steady, sort of a steady career. It's not been fast, it's not been slow. It's just at the right pace, I think for me.

R. Alan Brooks::

Yeah.

Maia Ruth Lee:

And, you know, in my mind, I've always, even from the beginning, my mantra is I love, I'm in it for the slow burn. You know, if I'm able to do this age 80, 90 until I die, I'd be stoked. , I'd be very stoked. You know, I'd be, I'd be a lucky person if I could do that. And so in order for me to do that, I know that I need to pace myself. I need to really just take it slow, take it easy.

R. Alan Brooks:

You hit him with the, uh, tortoise and tortoise versus the hair philosophy. Yeah.

Maia Ruth Lee:

Yeah. I'm in no rush. I'm, I'm here. .

R. Alan Brooks:

Hey, Maia, I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me. Oh,

Maia Ruth Lee:

Well thanks for having me. That was fun. Sorry if I just blabbed on and on.

R. Alan Brooks:

Hey, you know, that's, that's, it's just kind of the cool thing to be able to talk about your process and journey and stuff like that.

Dele Johnson:

The penultimate episode of How Art is Born Season 2 featured artist Finnegan Shannon, who at the time was going by Shannon Finnegan. Finnegan is another artist whose work has been on view at MCA Denver. In their conversation, Finnegan talks about how their disability has influenced their artwork, issues around accessibility in the arts world, and not keeping themselves in a box as an artist and creator.

R. Alan Brooks:

Today I'm joined by Brooklyn-based artist Shannon Finnegan. Say hello.

Shannon Finnegan:

Hi.

R. Alan Brooks:

Okay, so to start us off, can you tell us a little bit about who you are?

Shannon Finnegan:

Yes. I consider myself a project based artist, so I'm often kind of working with a set of ideas and thinking about a form for those to take, and then thinking about a new set of ideas and a form for those to take and kind of so on like that. I think about, I think sometimes there's this word, visual art mm-hmm. . I think my practice is related to the visual arts, but I've also been doing I'm disabled and I think about cross disability solidarity a lot. And I've been kind of inquiring a little bit about, about centering visual visuals in art making. And so I also like the term studio artist kind of someone who's yeah, in, in a room making some things . but yeah, I, I think an important piece of my practice is that I'm disabled and that's something that comes into my work a lot and thinking about access and especially I think a lot of the forms of access in the world are come from these compliance models. So they're, they're this very kind of check a box minimum effort kind of approach to access. And I'm really interested in access that is creative and collaborative and an ongoing process and rooted in relationships and things like that. so that's something that I'm always, I'm often thinking about my work is kind of experimenting with different forms of, of access.

R. Alan Brooks:

Okay. Well, cool. So we're only gonna be as specific about your disability as you wanna be, but I'm most interested in how it works with your art. so for the purposes of that question, has the disability been lifelong or was it something that came sort of later in life?

Shannon Finnegan:

Yeah, I've, I've been disabled since I was born, but I think my awareness as like a politically disabled person or as, as a disabled person kind of understanding my experience as socially and culturally shaped was more in adulthood. I was, I was often I actually, I was thinking about this recently. I actually knew a lot of other disabled people growing up. Like kind of family friends and, and other disabled kids and stuff like that. But I wasn't really encouraged to make connections between our experiences. and I was, I was really pushed to try to be as kind of normal as possible.

R. Alan Brooks:

Oh, that's a thing.

Shannon Finnegan:

but yeah, I'll also say like, my, my disability is like mobility related. So it's mostly impacting kind of like walking, standing movement. Muscular, skeletal stuff.

R. Alan Brooks:

Okay. Well, so then we'll come back around to that as a theme, but I, I often ask like, what was the moment that art first spoke to you? And then also what was the moment that you knew that you wanted to create art? And for some people that moment is the same moment. For some people it's different.

Shannon Finnegan:

I think. So I grew up in a pretty creative household. there are kind of artists and creative people going back, like my grandmas on both sides were, were artists, or not like artists as a career, but were were artists. And and so it was a big part of my childhood and kind of just like what I was doing to entertain myself as a kid. Like, I remember if there was no school, one day I would go with my mom to her office, and one of the things I would do is I would make cards for all of her coworkers during the day. And then at the end of the day, we would go and go around and deliver them. so things like that where I was just like drawing and making things was a big part of how I was kind of like passing time as a kid.

Mm-hmm. . And so I actually can't really remember a time where like, that kind of making wasn't a part of my life, but I think it wasn't until later that I understood that art could also really say something or be a, a kind of vehicle for communicating ideas.

Shannon Finnegan:

and so yeah, I think it was at a moment where I was thinking about art in more conceptual ways and exploring that more, and thinking of it as maybe a bigger part of my life rather than something that I was doing alongside other things, though I still feel like I'm doing art alongside many other things.

R. Alan Brooks:

Okay. So you do work that is can be big, it can, it can use different mediums. where do you start? Like are you starting with the message? Are you starting with the art and then sort of discovering what the message is in the art?

Shannon Finnegan:

Maybe? Yeah, maybe I'll talk about a specific project. Okay. so I have this series of work that was at MCA Denver. Mm-hmm. that's called "Do You Want Us Here or Not?" And it's benches and seating. And so that was a project where I had been going to museums in New York City and I had just been feeling so frustrated with the lack of seating and places to sit and rest in the galleries is, you know, it's this big fancy museum. There's tons of space, they've spent tons of money on all these different things. They have all this messaging of like, we wanna be welcoming, we wanna be inclusive. And then even something like so simple

R. Alan Brooks:

Right

Shannon Finnegan:

Or how, you know. And so I was kind of like collecting ideas for how you can make a bench . And then in 2019 there was like an exhibition opportunity and I was like, okay, I'm just gonna make two. Like, that's what I can afford. That's what I feels like somewhat manageable though they're still like big objects that are hard to store. Right. and so I made two and I painted them myself. And the other one in that set said I'd rather be sitting said, if you agree. Like, just very open-ended. so it was kind of a long process to get from the idea to an actual object. And actually I made a zine in the middle. That was kind of my first step was like, okay, I can't build a bench, but I can draw some ideas for a bench and I can put those in a zine. Huh. and yeah. And then I think once those pieces were built and in the world, I started to understand way more about them, about, you know, talking to other people about their experiences of galleries and the kind of talking to curators about why there isn't more seating and, and stuff like that. And understanding that there is kind of a strategy there in terms of like using the artwork itself to get more seating into the space that kind of like works around some of the norms of exhibition design. yeah.

R. Alan Brooks:

It's really great to hear that process. okay. Shannon, have you ever, did you ever have a point where you struggled with calling yourself an artist?

Shannon Finnegan:

Yes. .

R. Alan Brooks:

Okay. I love to hear about that. Cuz you know, I think there's just this way that we as creative people have these sort of intangible goals or like, when this happens, then I'll be real. And so yeah. I wanna, I wanna know what that was like for you.

Shannon Finnegan:

I think, yeah, I think I really had this idea that to be an artist, it had to be your career or it had to be your job mm-hmm. , and that's just such a silly idea because that's, you know, when right out of college I worked at an artist residency program and it was really amazing because I got to know a lot of artists who were like five or seven years older than me and I had such an abstract idea of what an artist was at that time. And then I was able to meet all these artists and understand like, oh, okay, what what does that actually look like in your life? And like, definitely one of the things I learned is that like almost everyone has a day job, right? And like, everyone's trying to find the day job that they like the best or like, you know,

R. Alan Brooks:

Or hate the least.

Shannon Finnegan:

Yeah. Hate the least , cobble different things together, like a little of this, a little of that. and I think that was something that helped me understand like, oh, this isn't about having a certain career level or, or something like that. And it's more about what is my focus or what, where am I putting my energy or how I wanna relate to the world. And when I started talking to people being like, oh, I'm an artist, it was so cool to then see where the conversation would go from there and get like kind of opens up a space to like talk more about my ideas or, or share some things that I'm thinking about in that space or, or things like that

R. Alan Brooks:

Makes me think about, there's this movie by Lake Bell actress, it's called In a World. And the premise of the movie is that her father is like a movie trailer guy, like in a world. Right. and she wants to sort of follow in his footsteps and everybody's saying, you know, like, as a woman, you can't do it and things like that. the, the movie's. Okay. But hearing late Bell talk about making it, she said that the way she came to it was that she found that she was sort of raised to not speak in her real voice, to speak in like a high baby voice as a woman. And she went through a process of sort of recovering her own voice, which obviously is fascinating for, for that specifically. But also I think as an artist particularly as an artist who is marginalized, as you mentioned there is this process of finding what is the most authentic version of me, what is my trues voice. So it's cool to hear, you know, you talk about what it meant to you and finding your way in that same thing.

Shannon Finnegan:

Yeah. And I feel like that's such an ongoing process for me. You know, I'm always finding new pockets of things where I'm like, oh, right. Like that's some kind of like norm or expectation that I got from somewhere else that actually isn't serving me, or I can try doing it in a different way, or I can experiment with this. And it's like, yeah. It feels like kind of peeling back layers and layers and layers.

R. Alan Brooks:

Well Shannon, I appreciate you taking time to talk to me. It's been, it's been cool. It's been cool to hear about like your artistic journey and all of That.

Shannon Finnegan:

Yeah. Such a pleasure. I'm excited to follow your social media and get those little bits of joy with you .

Dele Johnson:

R. Alan Brooks:

I'm your host, R. Alan Brooks, artist, writer, and professor. Today I'm joined by Brooklyn-based. Chef Eric See. Say hello, Eric.

Eric See:

Hello, everybody.

R. Alan Brooks:

. Hey man. So to start us off, can you tell us a little bit about who you are?

Eric See:

Oh, that--. What kinda podcast is this? Cause there's a lot to unpack there, , But, um, I guess on the surface level, superficial level, I'm a, I'm a chef in Brooklyn. I have been here for 12 years. I'm originally from New Mexico, from Albuquerque. And, um, I imagine that I am here because I opened a restaurant called Ursula. Mm-hmm. , uh, named from my grandmother that, uh, I opened at the beginning of the pandemic in Brooklyn. It's a celebration of the intersections of my New Mexican heritage and background and, um, the queer community here in Brooklyn.

R. Alan Brooks:

Hmm. Okay. That's really cool, man. I gotta say, uh, you know, we had a, a chef on last season and, um, my ignorance around the culinary art rings true and consistent. But one of the things that I think is really dope is hearing about, um, how this is an expression of what you believe, um, and looking into your work, I know activism's a big part of it too. So I guess one of my sort of beginning questions is how did you first sort of define your relationship with food? What was, what stood out? What was the first time it spoke to you?

Eric See:

Um, I, to be honest, I don't know that my relationship with food was defined, uh, early on. It was a relationship with hospitality.

R. Alan Brooks:

Ah, okay.

Eric See:

And also, um, I think that food is like the great connector across cultures and languages, uh, false boundaries of nationalism. And I used to want to be a travel agent when I was a kid. That was like my dream . I'm glad I didn't necessarily follow that route. I might be jobless today.

R. Alan Brooks:

. Right.

Eric See:

But, uh, I just, I always love the idea of, uh, cultural exchange and, and traveling and getting to hear and listen to new stories about people that I was unfamiliar with their traditions, because you really only know what you know

R. Alan Brooks:

Right.

Eric See:

Until you know something else. And so I really loved getting to experience, um, cultures outside of mine. And I used to work in an airport diner when I was 11. And, uh, there would be these pilots landing, they're all from different parts of the US just for a couple hours. They'd be exchanging stories about what they did in Nebraska or El Paso or wherever they were coming from. And just that exchange, I think kind of, of really kind of, uh, catalyzed more of my interest in, in travel and food and cultural exchange. Um. And I spent 14 years in the front of house, um, doing service and hospitality. I used to work at a, at a hotel in the front office. And I loved that. I just, I like taking care of people.

R. Alan Brooks:

So was, was that like the, the interest in hospitality, the interest in exchange and cultures, was that something you discovered in that position when you were 11? Or do you feel like it was just kind of always with you?

Eric See:

I, I, I get, I would imagine that it's always been with me. Oh, there's, there were a few pieces of that. I had a very like, entrepreneurial spirit when I was a kid too. And maybe what clicked then was like having cash in my hand, .

R. Alan Brooks:

Right.

Eric See:

Because being a little server at 11 years old and people giving me cash tips, I'd go home and like, with little wads of, of dollar bills in my hands. And that was really, uh, energizing my entrepreneurial spirit. I used to sell newspapers outside the grocery store. I used to host little fundraisers at my elementary school to raise money for clubs that I made up, um,

R. Alan Brooks:

.

Eric See:

But I think it was just, uh, the things that you don't necessarily understand to connect were probably the connectors when I was younger.

R. Alan Brooks:

Hmmm.

R. Alan Brooks:

Um, I want, I want to hear a little more of like what's your journey was. So like in high school, were you connecting hospitality with food? Did you--was it college? Like, how did you kind of find your way on this path?

Eric See:

I would say that, yeah, it's kind of always been, it's always, it's been omnipresent my whole life. Um, wanting to be part of celebrations when I was a kid. Um, but I've, in terms of hospitality and getting to like, run my own show or like be my own act, uh, I've worked in restaurants, um, since I was like 14 outside of this, uh, illegal trade of child labor when I was 11 . Right. Um, but, uh, I, uh, I used to run like the drive through counter at, um, uh, a fast food seafood spot. And even that was like really fun for me. I just liked giving people their food and talking to them through the menu. Uh, I worked at a new Mexican restaurant in the takeout counter and I was a busboy. I loved being able to talk to people about the menu and help them, um, find the things that I thought they would like.

I grew up outside of Old Town Albuquerque. So the restaurant that I was working at was, um, in a very like, tourist heavy area. So I got to talk to a lot of people about the culture where I come from and the menu that I'm very familiar with. Uh, and that was exciting. I think, um, I've always, even when I didn't think I was gonna go into hospitality, cause it was never, it was actually never a, a career path that I had envisioned. I went to college to study linguistics and I thought about doing kinesiology. Um hmm. And it wasn't, I was always waiting tables or like in a restaurant part-time from 14 on. And, uh, it, it didn't ever strike me as a, as a career choice. In fact. Like I kind of looked down upon people that were career waiters when I was younger and it was like, oh, how sad to be in this position and be 50.

And now to this day, I'm like, I get it. It's a love, it's a passion. And also I have, as a business owner now, I kind of envy those people that were career servers cause they have so much freedom in their life. Mm-hmm. , they get to come and show up to work and do what they love to put on an act, to put on a show for somebody every single night. Right. Um, and then go back. Then they get to clock out and go home. Huh. And not have to have to worry about anything else. And they have financial security and freedom from their job. And I envy that that was a, something that I wish I had grasped onto at a younger age. But, um,

R. Alan Brooks:

Well, you know, it's interesting cuz there's a lot of people who, uh, look at food service as a career that you do while you're trying to do your real thing. Um, yes. And it sounds like you might have had some of that, but now you've found a life and passion within it. Um,

Eric See:

Yeah. I don't know. I think I always wanted to be adjacent to food because it was, uh, because it was adjacent to travel mm-hmm. , um, and, and it was adjacent to linguistics. It was like all of those things were combined in the, into this, um, industry in hospitality that I was like, wait a minute. I could do all of these things at the same time.

R. Alan Brooks:

Okay. So you went through this thing of, um, working in different restaurants. Um, so was the next step for you to start your own? Or was it to grow within and establish one? How did that kind of work?

Eric See:

Well, so I was waiting tables in New Mexico, uh, 12 years ago. Um, and my journey to the kitchen was a result of a failing relationship. Uh, I, I was dating somebody who was a hairstylist and they didn't like that I worked at night. The impetus was on me to change my life and my schedule. Right. And so I was exploring other avenues for, um, what my career or future might look like. And so I decided to go to culinary school. Um, and I started that and I was like, wait a minute. Uh, I, I started with the, the idea of going into food and beverage management. I want, I wanted to be like a sommelier or work with uh, like a bar program.

R. Alan Brooks:

Right.

Eric See:

And then I was like, wait a minute. They work at night too, so that's not gonna work. . Um, and then I was learning how to cook and same thing. I was like, well if I'm a chef I still have to work at night and work on the weekends, on holidays. And so I decided to go down the route of pastry and I spent six months in Vermont doing pastry at a culinary school there. Cuz I felt like that was a little more, um, variety of what your career could look like in pastry. Cause if you're a baker, you might be up at 3:00 AM mm-hmm. . Um, if you're a pastry chef, your work is doing prep during the day and then your pastry cooks work at night. Um, so I thought, I thought, I was like, well, let me tinker with this. I was never really that interested in pastry . But going to pastry school and seeing the way that you could like, manipulate these ingredients in such unique ways, definitely caught, uh, my attention. Hmm. I came to New York to intern. I was supposed to leave after six months. Um, but I, um, had also realized that in New York and in these big food cities, it's, uh, your network is paramount to your pedigree. So I didn't go back to school cuz I had started to make some good connections here and I wanted to keep them intact rather than having to start over in 12 years later I'm here still.

R. Alan Brooks:

I gotta say, like I said, it's fascinating. It's really dope to hear like, uh, I dunno how you approach your art with this stuff now. Uh, I know a big part of, uh, just your life is, uh, activism, um, specifically, uh, well particularly in the LGBTQ plus space. So, um, I, I want to hear about how that connects with your, is it, is it part of your culinary work? Or is it, uh, sort of just like parallel to it?

Eric See:

Um, it's both. It's both because it's my, it's part of my identity. And you--that's inextricably tied to my, to my lived experience, which then is manifested in my food . Um, but it's also the people that are around me. And my restaurant specifically, it's, um, the people that work for me , most of my staff is queer and trans identifying. Um, a lot of my friends here in New York are, and I think that, um, I've always wanted to have some connection to community at every point in my life. Um, but, uh, there's so much going on. There's so many things, so many people, so many organizations and communities that need help, that need resources. And it can just become very overwhelming. If you don't, um, focus your energy into something that is actually tangible. Cuz it's like, well, if I put 25 cents over here at 25 cents over here, like that's not doing anything. So I am like, there, there are people that have better resources or information to coordinate and help this organization and I let them do that and I can focus on my community because I'm in touch with it, because I'm part of it. Um, and I'd rather focus more energy on this one part. So it's been a cornerstone of my business for the last seven years. Even before I opened Ursula to, um, connect with, to fundraise for, to advocate for queer based organizations here in New York and around the country. It started actually with a fundraiser that I did at a market. Um which it's really odd to have this conversation today given what happened in Colorado Springs yesterday. But my first big fundraiser was for the, um, uh, the victims of the Orlando massacre.

R. Alan Brooks:

Oh, wow. Yeah. Uh, I, I guess, uh, just for people listening, we should note that we're recording this just a couple days after the, uh, Colorado Spring shooting in the Club Q um, . So, you know, I, I've been thinking about that a lot and I'm thinking about how that, so, okay. So for me, when I, when I want to address a social issue or, uh, try to make change, it is composing a story that captures some aspect of humanity, um, in a way that hopefully, uh, creates unity or compassion or empathy. Um, it seems like a lot of your creation is about community connection, hospitality, things you mentioned. And specifically since this, this bar, uh, Club Q was about community and gathering, I want to hear like, I don't know how, how it is, how it sets in your mind. Like when you want to use your creativity to engage with social issues. Obviously it's not gonna be like me writing a story. So what is that process like for you?

Eric See:

Um, I think that that's a, again, it's like inextricably tied to my work because food is political. And, um, it's the access to food, it's the access to, um, who, who gets access to it, who's making the food, who is growing the food and harvesting the food, um, who's creating the policies, um, surrounding the way that our food systems work and distribution. So it's like you can't get away from politics and food and uh, so I think that it's on us to make sure that we, um, continue to advocate in ways that are supportive of our communities internally. Um, cuz yeah, you can't really get away from that. Yesterday, actually, the day, the same day, the same morning that we found out about the news in Colorado Springs, I was part of a big fundraiser here in New York for the Ali Forney Center. It's a, it's the country's largest, uh, LGBTQ+ homeless shelter and transitional system. Um, they provide medical services and gender affirming care for trans folks. They have, uh, temporary and long-term housing for queer and trans people here in New York. Hmm. And we had spent months and months working on this danceathon, um, where it was gonna be this day long event where there were different drag queens and DJs performing. They had, uh, like a culinary corner with different queer chefs serving food. And, uh, we raised about half a million dollars from this event . Um, but I remember waking up and reading that and, uh, then having to go to this event and like, be cheery and happy. But I was like, no, this is the reason that you have to have these events so you have to continue, um, expressing joy. Because joy is a form of resistance and the people that are threatened by that are the ones that want to take it away from you. So you can't stop.

R. Alan Brooks:

Cool. Hey, well, Eric, I I really appreciate you talking to me. It's been a, it's been a cool conversation.

Eric See:

Thank you. I appreciate you all having me. And I, I was really excited to, uh, have a connection to the Rocky Mountain region. So thank you Denver.

Dele Johnson:

Thanks for taking a trip down memory lane with us, and reliving some great moments from season 2 of How Art is Born. We'll be back with season 3, more interviews with artists about their origins and creative and artistic practices with your host R. Alan Brooks this spring.