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Can You Lose Who You Are: Caregiver Codependency Help
Episode 125 • 26th June 2024 • Eldercare Success • Nancy May, CareManity, LLC
00:00:00 00:41:29

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Can you become Co-Dependent on the Caregiving Role? What's that about?

In this episode of 'Doing It Best with Eldercare Success,' host Nancy May addresses the profound challenges and emotional journey faced by those caring for multiple elderly family members and what happens when our “job” in caring for them is over.  Have you identified so much with being a caregiver that you become stuck in knowing who you really are?  How do you move forward?  How do you get the right support from friends and family?  When is their support detrimental to your own well-being?

Nancy’s guest in this episode is Joined by Dr. Evan Plys, a PhD a board certified geropsychologist and professor at Harvard Medical School. Listen in as Dr. Plys and Nancy delve into the impact of caregiving on personal identity and emotional well-being.

Their discussion covers the struggle with accepting the term 'caregiver,' redefining roles beyond caregiving, and managing the emotional highs and lows associated with long-term caregiving. They also provide practical strategies for dealing with grief and transitioning to a new normal after a loved one's passing.

This episode of Eldercare Success is rich with insights and recommendations for you and other caregivers to maintain balance and mental health while fulfilling their caregiving duties.

Key Takeaways: How to. . .

  • 📓 Better understand your role and position as a caregiver
  • 🌟 Redefine your life after caregiving
  • 📝 Maintain your personal identity
  •  ⚖️Normalize caregiving experiences
  • 🧘‍♀️Get the right support from friends and family at the right time
  • 💔How to move with strength.

Episode Goals:

This episode of Eldercare Success aims to support and empower caregivers like you to understand how to identify some of the key issues that will make your life easier after your care role has been completed. Even if you're in the beginning, middle, or end of your caregiving role, this episode can help you find more strength for yourself and those you love and who are dependent on your support.

Helpful Links:

00:00 Introduction to Eldercare Success

00:46 Meet Dr. Evan Plyes: Expert in Caregiver Wellbeing

01:52 What is our role and Identity as a Caregiver

02:43 Challenges and Misconceptions we face

04:48 Emotional Health and Professional Comparisons

07:46 Redefining who we are and what’s important to us

10:28 Grief and Identity After Caregiving Ends

26:48 Strategies for Coping with Loss

33:53 Final Thoughts and Resources and more.

🎤Guest: Dr. Evan Plys, Ph.D. Dr. Evan Plys (he/him) is a board-certified clinical geropsychologist at MGH CHOIR and a member of the Faculty at Harvard Medical School. He is a current Faculty Scholar with the NIA IMPACT Collaboratory. Evan’s research primarily focuses on optimizing psychosocial intervention with systematically disadvantaged older adults and aging families at critical time points along the long-term care continuum, such as post-acute rehabilitation. His research also seeks solutions to psychosocial challenges within the context of dementia, caregiving, and palliative care. Evan has extensive clinical experience providing psychological services to older adults, family caregivers, and in residential care settings. He is frequently called upon to give talks within the community on topics related to aging, mental health, and long-term care. As an educator, he was previously the Associate Director of Behavioral Health at the DAWN Clinic (Aurora, CO).

🎧🎤Host: Nancy May has gone from the Boardroom to the Emergency Room to care for her aging parents and educate business owners, corporate employees, and leaders with more strength and confidence in doing well and doing good.  Nancy is the five-star author of How to Survive 911 Medical Emergencies, Step-by-Step Before, During, After! and an award-winning expert in managing the complexities of caring for an aging parent or family member, even from over 1200 miles away, or more for a Free File-of-Life to www.howtosurvive911.com. 

Nancy is also the  Co-Founder of CareManity LLC and the private FaceBook group Eldercare Success.

#harvard #massgeneral #emotionaldependency #burnout #codependency #caregiver #YaleMedSchool Keywords: #Caregiving, Family Care, Elderly Care, Medicaid, Medicare, Financial Support, Family Caregivers, Home Care, Aging Parents, State Programs, caregivers, discounts, saving money, creative gift giving. Parents, family care, family.

Disclaimer: The views, perspectives, and opinions expressed in this show are those of the show guests and not directly those of the companies they serve or that of the host or the producer CareManity, LLC. The information discussed should not be considered medical, legal, or financial advice. Please seek advice from your own personal medical, legal, or financial advisors, as each person’s situation is different. (c) Copyright 2024 CareManity, LLC, all rights reserved. CareManity is a trademark of CareManity, LLC.



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Transcripts

Nancy May:

Hello, everybody.

Nancy May:

It's Nancy May and Doing it Best With Eldercare Success.

Nancy May:

And today's episode is one that actually started with a question I had myself.

Nancy May:

And it's all related around what happens to those of us that are not just

Nancy May:

caring for one parent or two parents, but three or four, or maybe even five

Nancy May:

family members over the course of time.

Nancy May:

And What happens with our own sense of identity and wellbeing?

Nancy May:

Do we forget who we are?

Nancy May:

Are we tied to that or not?

Nancy May:

So on that front, I have a guest here today, Dr.

Nancy May:

Evan Plyes, who's a PhD and licensed clinical psychologist,

Nancy May:

board certified gerontologist.

Nancy May:

Psychologist at the Center for Health Outcomes and Internal Disciplinary

Nancy May:

Research at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston, Massachusetts.

Nancy May:

He's also a faculty member at the Harvard Medical School and provides psychotherapy

Nancy May:

services to caregivers to improve their emotional health and wellbeing and does

Nancy May:

research on adults and caregivers as well.

Nancy May:

So this is just such an important subject, Evan, that.

Nancy May:

Let's just dive in and get dirty in a good kind of way.

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: Yeah, well, thanks so much for having me.

Nancy May:

and, uh, yeah, so I, I do a lot of, work clinically with, caregivers.

Nancy May:

So, I'm coming at it from kind of like the therapist, doing psychotherapy angle.

Nancy May:

And, the issue you're discussing.

Nancy May:

If we think about caregiving as a role that we inhabit, just like many other

Nancy May:

roles in our life, it can be, you know, employee, uh, parent, child, uh, et

Nancy May:

cetera, caregiver is another role that we add, over the, the course of our life.

Nancy May:

At different phases of life and at different circumstances, roles

Nancy May:

become bigger and, some roles emerge as, taking up more time.

Nancy May:

some roles also give more meaning and purpose.

Nancy May:

and so I think when we, when we think about that, like, feeling,

Nancy May:

very connected to being a caregiver.

Nancy May:

it, it's really being connected to that role, that you're inhabiting and how that

Nancy May:

has surfaced as something very important, and often time consuming for you.

Nancy May:

One thing I feel is very interesting for us to even talk about is

Nancy May:

how many people, although we are caring for somebody that we love, especially

Nancy May:

we're talking about elder care right now, really elderly parents, it could

Nancy May:

be a spouse, it could be another family member, older people, that the term

Nancy May:

caregiver is one that so many of us shun.

Nancy May:

I would even say I did that myself, even though I was not technically

Nancy May:

a physical hands on caregiver all the time with my folks, because

Nancy May:

I did this from 1200 miles away.

Nancy May:

I had a team of people that were working with me or aides to manage that.

Nancy May:

Daily getting out of bed, making sure they're physically clean and

Nancy May:

safe and mentally safe as well.

Nancy May:

But that term caregiver is one that I personally shunned for a long time, and

Nancy May:

it wasn't until later on that I realized, you know what, taking care of everything

Nancy May:

else is what it is, and it's almost like, I hear people say, oh, that's

Nancy May:

almost beneath me, I'm not a caregiver.

Nancy May:

Do you find people are saying that or doing that or just quietly

Nancy May:

admitting or afraid to admit that caregiver can actually be a good thing?

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: Yeah, sometimes there's people who don't identify

Nancy May:

with, uh, the role of caregiver and, also there are language preferences.

Nancy May:

Some people prefer care partner, carer, or, defining it in some different way.

Nancy May:

I think that, in my experience, most people are okay with the term caregiver.

Nancy May:

I think.

Nancy May:

I think where it become where it can become problematic is, it is kind

Nancy May:

of negating all those other roles.

Nancy May:

so when people identify, like, as I am a caregiver, then, you know,

Nancy May:

people are multi dimensional.

Nancy May:

It's like you lose your identity.

Nancy May:

I'm no longer a leader, an executive, I'm a caregiver, but we can be both.

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: Yeah, absolutely.

Nancy May:

And, where that gets people in trouble that I often see is when we actually

Nancy May:

think about a caregiver, like, that term is also used professionally, so it's a,

Nancy May:

it's a term that's coming from the field of medicine, and I think, inherently,

Nancy May:

I think sometimes we actually, when we name ourselves as caregivers, um, what

Nancy May:

are we comparing ourselves to, like, I think sometimes we're comparing ourselves

Nancy May:

to, what a professional nurse would do, what, people in the field of healthcare

Nancy May:

would do, and we're simply not doing it.

Nancy May:

In that type of role,

Nancy May:

And maybe I don't want to be a nurse and maybe I don't want to be a

Nancy May:

doctor or maybe I don't want to be an aide, but I'm, I don't want to use the

Nancy May:

word stuck, but it's the only word I can think of, like stuck in this role.

Nancy May:

It's my responsibility to do, well for somebody that I

Nancy May:

loved and who cared for me.

Nancy May:

But it's, it's almost hard to, adopt that the term, but it's really, I think

Nancy May:

the role in making that merge into now being the one that they are dependent on.

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: yeah, and it's, I mean, it's like, it's kind of like,

Nancy May:

It's scary.

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: yeah, and setting yourself up for a job with, you

Nancy May:

know, hopefully do get training,

Nancy May:

was about to say, John, with no training, you just, sometimes

Nancy May:

you're just like, Oh my God, like this, you know, it's hit the fan.

Nancy May:

I gotta jump in and fly down or fly out to somewhere to,

Nancy May:

to pick mom up off the floor.

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: and again, from the mental health, kind of

Nancy May:

emotional health side of things.

Nancy May:

It's more of that comparison.

Nancy May:

So I'm making comparisons of myself and my performance to that of a professional.

Nancy May:

And what if I fail?

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: What if you fail?

Nancy May:

Then I feel like the stakes are a little bit higher, but also it's not really

Nancy May:

a fair comparison, not just because of the training, but people who are

Nancy May:

professional caregivers have shifts.

Nancy May:

And so that's a huge difference.

Nancy May:

Family members don't.

Nancy May:

We're always on.

Nancy May:

Whether it's physically there or emotionally there, right?

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: exactly.

Nancy May:

And, and one of the things that I mentioned people as well, if you are a

Nancy May:

nurse in a hospital and your spouse comes into that hospital, likelihood is they're

Nancy May:

not going to give you that assignment because that's a conflict of interest.

Nancy May:

Mm hmm.

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: So, you're really not a truly professional caregiver, the

Nancy May:

field of medicine and healthcare has identified that, you being in this dual

Nancy May:

role is not the best way to provide care.

Nancy May:

and yet people find themselves in that dual role.

Nancy May:

That's not to say that caregiving is bad.

Nancy May:

like a bad thing by any means, or that people don't care.

Nancy May:

I think it's the, the way that you set your expectations up of that role.

Nancy May:

So I'm holding myself to a standard that really, I

Nancy May:

shouldn't have to hold myself to.

Nancy May:

So one of the things that I like to do with some folks

Nancy May:

is rename what caregiver is.

Nancy May:

So,

Nancy May:

That is.

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: about, well, it really depends on the individual,

Nancy May:

like, what is that role?

Nancy May:

because caregiver, again, that is a healthcare professional,

Nancy May:

But what does caregiver look like to them?

Nancy May:

Is that cleaning up and helping mom and dad cook meals or driving them to the

Nancy May:

doctors or helping them stay physically safe and well, or is it from 1200 miles

Nancy May:

away, paying bills and making sure that they do get to the points that they have

Nancy May:

the right care, that, that the people who shouldn't be there are not there.

Nancy May:

And the people who should be there are there kind of thing.

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: yeah, is it the, the present son?

Nancy May:

Is it the, loyal spouse?

Nancy May:

whatever, whatever.

Nancy May:

Make sense for you and in that role in that relationship, but I do think

Nancy May:

redefining it, can be powerful for people because again, when we were adopting these

Nancy May:

names and these roles that are preset.

Nancy May:

It also kind of comes with this preset, expectations for how we're supposed to do

Nancy May:

our

Nancy May:

own baggage.

Nancy May:

Yeah,

Nancy May:

so, there are a couple of different things I want to discuss,

Nancy May:

just quickly, starting out in the role as a quote unquote caregiver, whatever

Nancy May:

that might look to the outside world.

Nancy May:

One of the things that you're suggesting is that you sit down with yourself and

Nancy May:

maybe a parent or siblings or a spouse and say, this is my definition of caregiving.

Nancy May:

Is that true to you?

Nancy May:

Or just do you do it for yourself to say, this is what my expectations are.

Nancy May:

This is where I'm going to be And this is how the role is going to evolve over time

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: Yeah, having that conversation with yourself,

Nancy May:

is the thing to do.

Nancy May:

Yeah.

Nancy May:

So you don't just get into, I call it the head trash, a non professional term,

Nancy May:

but another term I, to it as like the itty bitty, you know, shitty committee.

Nancy May:

I'll, I'll bleep that one out.

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: I guess then, I would become the, uh, like

Nancy May:

a professional head trash man.

Nancy May:

Oh, so yeah, you, that turns you into human sanitation collector.

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: yeah, and see what I did.

Nancy May:

I renamed it and now I have a different set of expectations

Nancy May:

myself as a, as a mental trash

Nancy May:

As a mental trash collector versus a geropsychologist.

Nancy May:

So one of the reasons why I wanted to have this discussion to begin with, and

Nancy May:

we had talked about the other week was.

Nancy May:

Really looking at people that I have gotten to know over the years

Nancy May:

who have been in this role of, we'll use the term caregiver here,

Nancy May:

for multiple people over time.

Nancy May:

they start with a mom, then it goes to mom passes, then it's the dad, then

Nancy May:

it's the spouse, then it's, an in law or some, so now they're in this role

Nancy May:

for such an extended period of time.

Nancy May:

And.

Nancy May:

I'm not a psychologist, but there are certainly those, those highs

Nancy May:

and lows that we get addicted to.

Nancy May:

Right?

Nancy May:

it's the endorphins that come into play, the highs of the great joys and

Nancy May:

the success and even the emergencies, that adrenaline that, goes through you.

Nancy May:

And then the lows of when things don't necessarily go the

Nancy May:

way you had hoped they would.

Nancy May:

and then when those, that, that role as quote unquote caregiver ends

Nancy May:

because there is nobody else that needs your help and your family.

Nancy May:

There are two things that I've seen.

Nancy May:

It's a sense of extreme grief because now the identity of who that person

Nancy May:

is has been, and this is the exact term that I had originally heard,

Nancy May:

and which is why I reached out to you, was -codependent on that role

Nancy May:

and responsibility that you have.

Nancy May:

Not as the role and responsibility of being a leader in a corporate world

Nancy May:

or as an employee someplace else or even a cashier at Walmart, but you

Nancy May:

have become so attached to that role as the caregiver where somebody else

Nancy May:

is dependent upon you all the time.

Nancy May:

And now, poof, they're gone.

Nancy May:

And the change in personality, the grief, the wondering of who am I anymore and

Nancy May:

how to build relationships again in a way like you might have done before.

Nancy May:

Which may not be possible.

Nancy May:

I mean, how often does that happen?

Nancy May:

And, beyond the people that I've seen, is that something that's more prevalent

Nancy May:

than we realize, even as, as individuals, because we're the ones going through it.

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: Yeah, it's very common.

Nancy May:

I would say in my experience that folks do grieve losing

Nancy May:

the, you know, the caregiving activities and and caregiving role.

Nancy May:

Not just the loss of the person, but the loss of the

Nancy May:

role, uh, the need to, the, the desire to, to help somebody or

Nancy May:

the need to be there for someone.

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: Exactly.

Nancy May:

And, you, you hit on it early on of, you know, we know that caregiving is

Nancy May:

met with stressors and challenges and.

Nancy May:

Exactly.

Nancy May:

Profound insights, it, it is not all negative.

Nancy May:

There's a lot of positive that comes from caring for somebody,

Nancy May:

there's, individual growth.

Nancy May:

There's, uh, being able to restructure a relationship in a meaningful way.

Nancy May:

And, and there's also kind of this, like, Transhuman kind of meaning that

Nancy May:

can be, taken from the act of caregiving.

Nancy May:

It's, it's very powerful and it gives you meaning and purpose because it's a

Nancy May:

very powerful thing, rooted in love.

Nancy May:

And, it was a very strong emotion.

Nancy May:

So it makes sense that, we get a lot there's these really positive

Nancy May:

things that we're getting.

Nancy May:

and so it is difficult to, change that role.

Nancy May:

I, I would say, I'm hesitant to to say, kind of losing that

Nancy May:

role or abandoning that role.

Nancy May:

Because I, I think that the things that, the love, the, helping others

Nancy May:

that, generativity or family, whatever the kind of source of meaning and

Nancy May:

purpose that you're taking from the caregiving role, that persists.

Nancy May:

if, somebody in your family passes away, you, it's not that

Nancy May:

you no longer value family.

Nancy May:

it's just the particular behavior.

Nancy May:

That was scratching that itch for you.

Nancy May:

The day to day activities have changed, but the experience has

Nancy May:

ideally made you a, a more rich human being or person, not just to yourself

Nancy May:

and your family, but maybe to, to others in society that just cause how

Nancy May:

you react to them differently now.

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: Exactly.

Nancy May:

And, again, the thing about you, I would call it like a

Nancy May:

value about your value system.

Nancy May:

Do they change, you think?

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: I don't think the values change.

Nancy May:

I think the behaviors that scratch the itch of those values change.

Nancy May:

So, I may still value helping others, or I may still value, respecting my

Nancy May:

elders, even after the, caregiving role for an aging parent ends.

Nancy May:

I just need to now find another way.

Nancy May:

Another behavior to enact that's what happens in the grieving process

Nancy May:

of you're having to adapt, you're having to find new behaviors to

Nancy May:

maintain that sense of identity.

Nancy May:

Yeah.

Nancy May:

So

Nancy May:

Okay.

Nancy May:

So I'm, I, I'm going to need a little forgiveness here because that almost

Nancy May:

sounds like an addictive personality.

Nancy May:

It's like you go from, from one habit to another, to another, you know,

Nancy May:

not that I'm a drinker, although I do enjoy a glass of wine on a Friday

Nancy May:

night every day, most Friday nights.

Nancy May:

But

Nancy May:

How do you replace that?

Nancy May:

That one desire, that driving desire that you're so ingrained in

Nancy May:

now that has become a day in and day out habit with something else.

Nancy May:

Is that a fair assessment or not?

Nancy May:

Yea, so it's

Nancy May:

a little extreme in saying that's an addictive personality.

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: You know, why, why do I, why do I smoke?

Nancy May:

I'm not a smoker.

Nancy May:

I've never had a cigarette.

Nancy May:

So, but I know other people who do, and it's everything

Nancy May:

I've heard is it feels good.

Nancy May:

You know, it makes me feel good.

Nancy May:

It's that sense of whatever it is.

Nancy May:

It's, it's a euphoria that makes me feel happy.

Nancy May:

my mom who is a smoker for many years, when she quit, even after she quit, she

Nancy May:

says, Oh, I could light up tomorrow,

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: So, so maybe it's,

Nancy May:

self soothing with

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: you know, it, it could be relaxing, could be activating,

Nancy May:

could be, so there's something you're getting something from that behavior.

Nancy May:

So, if I choose then to quit smoking, I would presumably have to replace, you

Nancy May:

know, whatever I was getting with a new

Nancy May:

something else, right,

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: Or, or it becomes very challenging and, I'm not setting

Nancy May:

myself up to be, you know, for sustainability of, of quitting smoking.

Nancy May:

Um, so you can think of life changes that way.

Nancy May:

if I'm dropping the identity of being a smoker, there is a behavior that I was

Nancy May:

previously doing to get a benefit and that's why I kept doing that behavior.

Nancy May:

Now, I'm changing the behavior.

Nancy May:

And I need to do something new, replace that with a new behavior

Nancy May:

that's doing the same thing.

Nancy May:

So I might go for a walk.

Nancy May:

Um, I might stretch.

Nancy May:

I might, do something that makes me really happy.

Nancy May:

a jolt of, serotonin.

Nancy May:

so, but I'm, I'm continuing to do something in my life that

Nancy May:

is for the express purposes of.

Nancy May:

self soothing.

Nancy May:

right,

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: Behavior changes, and so it's similar in thinking about if one

Nancy May:

of the things that really has connected me to that caregiving role is being able

Nancy May:

to meet, being able to meet myself with somebody who's, at a vulnerable time.

Nancy May:

So now what that looks like might change.

Nancy May:

Yeah, I might, uh, volunteer.

Nancy May:

I might, find other ways in my life to, enact that need that I have.

Nancy May:

And I would say that's probably a little bit more specific.

Nancy May:

I would, it's probably a little bit broader of like being

Nancy May:

caring family or whatever, but you're changing the, behavior.

Nancy May:

and that happens throughout life.

Nancy May:

You know, I, if I value my health, the way that I enact that.

Nancy May:

Behaviorally is going to look different from my 20s to my 40s to my 60s to my 80s.

Nancy May:

So.

Nancy May:

In the caregiver role, because now we're going to, we're, we're no

Nancy May:

longer a caregiver, our role and responsibilities to somebody else in that.

Nancy May:

That might have been frail or need us for to survive, really,

Nancy May:

is what that is, is changed.

Nancy May:

And so we have to go back to what is a new norm and whatever that might be.

Nancy May:

You say, going back to habits that made us feel good, What if we forgot

Nancy May:

what those, because it was so long, we forgot what made us feel good.

Nancy May:

Because we do, we just don't know anymore.

Nancy May:

It's been 20 years and the friends that we had have disappeared because we don't

Nancy May:

have the chance to go out with them.

Nancy May:

And it's a job to keep relationships going, whether they're friends or family

Nancy May:

members, . How do we get over that hurdle and finding what that new norm might look

Nancy May:

like if we don't even know where to begin?

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: Yeah, so I guess it does rest a little bit on the

Nancy May:

assumption that we have a, a good sense of self and our identity.

Nancy May:

Um, and I would say it's probably a good thing to check in on yourself with that.

Nancy May:

There are a lot of websites out there that, help people kind of

Nancy May:

identify what their values are.

Nancy May:

Um, Yeah, that language again is used a lot.

Nancy May:

but even just, having some check ins and this is why I also help people,

Nancy May:

make sure that they're naming all the roles in their life and not

Nancy May:

losing, that sense of who they are.

Nancy May:

Not just having one, but having multiple, even in the

Nancy May:

course of caregiving to be able to say, you know, I like to knit.

Nancy May:

So even though mom and dad may not be doing it, I'm going to, order some

Nancy May:

yarn and watch a YouTube and get back into it because at the very least I can.

Nancy May:

Make a sweater for mom, even if it doesn't look perfect.

Nancy May:

Right.

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: Exactly, and, making sure that you, don't lose sight of,

Nancy May:

who you are and and also recognizing.

Nancy May:

I think 1 of the benefits of doing that kind of regularly with yourself is

Nancy May:

there might be times that that's not.

Nancy May:

Feasible that that has to take a back burner to other responsibility,

Nancy May:

That's a practicality of, of when somebody else is so dependent

Nancy May:

upon you to live there every day.

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: yeah, if, if I'm taking care of a parent and they're in the

Nancy May:

hospital, it may be that I can't, like, while they're in the hospital, I'm not

Nancy May:

able to, do the, the baking that I love.

Nancy May:

Um, but, that doesn't change that.

Nancy May:

That's a big part of who I am and, how I, I get joy.

Nancy May:

It's just that this other role is requiring a little bit more

Nancy May:

time and nurturing right now.

Nancy May:

Um, but that doesn't mean that that other role isn't important to who I am anymore.

Nancy May:

Well, and even we had, we had also discussed it at one point, a

Nancy May:

little bit about how you take, how you take the lessons that you've learned as

Nancy May:

a caregiver and create, I wouldn't say a new identity, but, um, A new sense of, or

Nancy May:

an additional sense of responsibility.

Nancy May:

Not that we want to pile on more responsibility.

Nancy May:

Sometimes we just like, at the end of it, just, I am so physically

Nancy May:

and emotionally exhausted that you end up being numb for a while.

Nancy May:

And I think that's a normal reaction for many who have been so entrenched

Nancy May:

in, in doing this work for, I wouldn't say it's not work, but, but having

Nancy May:

the responsibility for somebody else.

Nancy May:

And the, the only outcome ultimately in, in an older person is when they

Nancy May:

pass and that versus when you've got kids and the outcome is they leave

Nancy May:

the nest, they go to college and, and they start their own family.

Nancy May:

So it's a little bit more positive than at the end of someone's life.

Nancy May:

Although at the end of someone's life, if you make that life have more

Nancy May:

meaning at the, even at, I say even to the very last breath, then, uh.

Nancy May:

That's positive too.

Nancy May:

Creating a new, a new role or new responsibility or a new way to, to

Nancy May:

take those skills and leverage them is, is a good way to just at least

Nancy May:

make the transition, I would say.

Nancy May:

Is that correct?

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: Yeah, and, loss, grief, bereavement is.

Nancy May:

Really intense, and it may not be instant that you're, you're

Nancy May:

like, okay, now you wake up the next day and I'm starting this new

Nancy May:

Life is all better.

Nancy May:

He's gone.

Nancy May:

Next.

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: Yeah, exactly.

Nancy May:

Doesn't work that way.

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: Yeah.

Nancy May:

So, um, it, it takes time.

Nancy May:

I think.

Nancy May:

Also, the reality is it takes a lot of, legal and administrative time.

Nancy May:

I would say death does not mark, necessarily the end of caregiving.

Nancy May:

the way we set, have things set up is, there's still a lot to be done.

Nancy May:

and so, there's actually that role kind of continues, uh, for a while.

Nancy May:

And continue for years.

Nancy May:

It was at the longest I heard of somebody 17 years.

Nancy May:

And, I've shared with a very close friend.

Nancy May:

I said, you know, every.

Nancy May:

As, as not just the POA for my folks, but also their, their executor, trustee, every

Nancy May:

piece of paper that I touched after the fact in my personal grieving process is.

Nancy May:

I feel like I'm going through that last day all over again.

Nancy May:

It's, it's touching one more thing.

Nancy May:

It's just a reminder that they're gone.

Nancy May:

And that's, for those who are listening, I want to let you know that with others

Nancy May:

that I've spoken to, that's pretty normal.

Nancy May:

And since we have a geropsychologist here, I guess maybe you can either reinforce

Nancy May:

or tell me I'm full of, what, on that

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: that's normal.

Nancy May:

Yeah, no, that's definitely normal.

Nancy May:

Okay, I was like, oh my God, I thought I was like losing my mind.

Nancy May:

I'm not like a whack job here going on, but thank you for reinforcing.

Nancy May:

I have, uh, I have not lost my mind.

Nancy May:

That is a pretty normal sense of, of feeling

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: Yeah, absolutely.

Nancy May:

And, and, you know, there, there's a lot of feelings that

Nancy May:

come with, that reminder of loss.

Nancy May:

and that responsibility and other, other families, members

Nancy May:

who don't have that role will never experience that the way that you did.

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: Yes, the, caregiving, in the verb tense is, is not

Nancy May:

contained to 1 person, or very rarely is contained to 1 person.

Nancy May:

Um, but everybody does have a different experience.

Nancy May:

and that's true of, when the care recipient is alive and that's

Nancy May:

true after, the care recipient passes, everyone's caregiver

Nancy May:

role experience is, is different.

Nancy May:

And, it comes with different emotions, but I think pretty universally, loss is

Nancy May:

hard and, really challenging and, and.

Nancy May:

Associated with a lot of negative emotion, I think prevailing, there's,

Nancy May:

it's not all negative emotions.

Nancy May:

There is, moments of, joy looking back on, the person or memorializing them,

Nancy May:

remembering them, um, hopefully being able to evaluate your, actions and role in a,

Nancy May:

in a favorable way, uh, relief, uh, a lot of times that, and that's a very normal.

Nancy May:

emotion, and a lot of it's sadness.

Nancy May:

So, just before we wrap up, I want to talk about maybe three things

Nancy May:

that you would recommend people do to, to help them through this process

Nancy May:

and understand that even though you have become Well, the term I use when

Nancy May:

I reach out to you is, codependent.

Nancy May:

Maybe that's not the correct clinical term.

Nancy May:

But you have become so dependent on identifying in that role

Nancy May:

and the responsibilities that they become habitual.

Nancy May:

What are some things that you would recommend people do?

Nancy May:

I mean, we talked and I said, one of the things that I did was create this podcast

Nancy May:

to really take all the years of learning and experience and share that with others,

Nancy May:

not just through my own life, but through people like yourself to bring together,

Nancy May:

to have that conversation and say, okay, it's, it's not necessarily a new identity.

Nancy May:

It's a, it's a different, different way of taking those life lessons

Nancy May:

and hopefully making other people's lives just a little bit better.

Nancy May:

And I see people write books and some do different things.

Nancy May:

They volunteer, but what are some practical things that you would recommend?

Nancy May:

somebody do to at least honor the grief and come back to

Nancy May:

what I would term a new normal.

Nancy May:

So that, that weight of the grief is not so compressing,

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: So, I, I think 3 strategies, 1, is about

Nancy May:

memorializing the person.

Nancy May:

So, that person will continue to be in your thoughts, will continue to be in

Nancy May:

your world and your environment as well.

Nancy May:

you will get reminders.

Nancy May:

And so,

Nancy May:

like your guardian angel kind of thing,

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: it, it could be that it could also be a picture, that

Nancy May:

you see, um, and, um, And so I think having some type of way that you're

Nancy May:

memorializing the person is kind of taking more control over that.

Nancy May:

and, being able to set up those thoughts and reminders and images in a way that

Nancy May:

kind of fits for you and is, respectful of the relationship that you had,

Nancy May:

so memorializing somebody else, you taking the action to do so

Nancy May:

actually puts the control back in your hand versus the person who needs and

Nancy May:

need and care because they're gone.

Nancy May:

Is that, is that a correct, Description

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: I think it gives you more control over your grief

Nancy May:

process.

Nancy May:

it allows, you are constructing something for, a grieving process for,

Nancy May:

or and

Nancy May:

being controlled by the grief.

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: exactly.

Nancy May:

So it gives you a little bit more power in that relationship.

Nancy May:

I would also say, abandon any timeline expectations you have

Nancy May:

around the grieving process.

Nancy May:

Like, okay, it's been 6 months.

Nancy May:

I should be feeling this way, or I shouldn't be feeling

Nancy May:

this way, or it's been a year.

Nancy May:

So that

Nancy May:

weeks, I should be going on.

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: Yeah, exactly.

Nancy May:

The corporate world, like, okay, you've got your 10 days

Nancy May:

of grief, now get back to work.

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: Yeah, exactly.

Nancy May:

It's not like, uh, taking leave.

Nancy May:

Well, I mean, it shouldn't be like, taking leave where, you get

Nancy May:

an X amount of, time for grief.

Nancy May:

everyone's journey is different.

Nancy May:

And so there's no timeline when you have a timeline and you start to,

Nancy May:

evaluate your, your grief and your emotional response, then you're going

Nancy May:

to start to judge yourself and it's just going to make everything worse.

Nancy May:

So I would say there's no timeline.

Nancy May:

And don't let other people tell you that there's a timeline.

Nancy May:

I've heard that too.

Nancy May:

It's like, it's time to get back out.

Nancy May:

If you don't do that, others are going to drop you as friends.

Nancy May:

Well, if they're going to do that, Then, screw it.

Nancy May:

They are not your friends.

Nancy May:

It's time to move on, is my attitude.

Nancy May:

They weren't your friend to begin with, if they've given you a timeline.

Nancy May:

Just, Next.

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: Yeah.

Nancy May:

It sounds like not a very supportive friend.

Nancy May:

Yeah, I'm a little harsher, so.

Nancy May:

Um, and then the other thing I would say is, kind of like what we were

Nancy May:

talking about around, reminding yourself of your values, and adjusting

Nancy May:

your behaviors to make sure that, you are, enacting those values.

Nancy May:

So.

Nancy May:

the example that you raised of, doing this podcast, I'm, I'm assuming that, if

Nancy May:

you were to do a values, exercise that, generativity or, that might be something

Nancy May:

that you really value, and so, uh, you found a behavior to enact that value.

Nancy May:

I think when people do consider, this new normal, and, thinking about what

Nancy May:

does life look like now, making sure that you're keeping those values in mind, and

Nancy May:

I think the reason why, and what makes it challenging, because it might seem

Nancy May:

kind of intuitive and natural, really intense sadness is Makes us want to avoid.

Nancy May:

Makes us want to avoid what?

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: Do whatever we're doing.

Nancy May:

Yeah, I mean, it, and it makes sense from a body perspective.

Nancy May:

I don't want to, I don't want to do something that I know is going

Nancy May:

to make me feel really, really bad.

Nancy May:

So, if I took a walk after dinner every night for 50 years with my

Nancy May:

spouse, and then they passed away, and I cannot bring myself to go

Nancy May:

on a walk because it's too sad.

Nancy May:

It, the grief makes you avoid that behavior.

Nancy May:

Knowing that what I got from that walk, is maybe companionship, I value health,

Nancy May:

knowing those things allows you to replace that behavior or rethink that behavior.

Nancy May:

So, you will want to avoid things, sometimes.

Nancy May:

again,

Nancy May:

because they hurt.

Nancy May:

They're painful, right?

Nancy May:

You want to avoid pain, whether it's physical or emotional,

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: people rarely sign themselves up to, receive

Nancy May:

really painful, situations.

Nancy May:

So, yeah, we naturally avoid it.

Nancy May:

But making sure that, you know, the detriment of that is we could avoid

Nancy May:

behaviors that, give us meaning and purpose and then it creates this cycle

Nancy May:

of, now I'm not doing the things that give me meaning, I'm feeling even worse now.

Nancy May:

I'm just like stewing in those negative emotions and then we can downward spiral.

Nancy May:

So, very early on.

Nancy May:

not even forget making behavior changes, forget, finding that new normal, just

Nancy May:

being aware of what are the things that give you meaning and purpose and

Nancy May:

that you value and that you want to make sure make it into that new normal.

Nancy May:

Just knowing that is very powerful.

Nancy May:

Because, eventually you will, find new behaviors that kind of fuel that.

Nancy May:

And so making sure that you're, scratching all those itches, doing things in line

Nancy May:

with your values and and you feel like yourself is going to be really important.

Nancy May:

This has been a really fascinating discussion.

Nancy May:

And, I'd like to just add one, one point if, if I may, and you can correct me if

Nancy May:

I'm wrong, but we're talking about values and the values that we have And I guess

Nancy May:

reawakening or reidentifying what they are within ourselves after a loss, of a

Nancy May:

role or a person, whatever that might be.

Nancy May:

And understanding and sort of reidentifying what's Meaningful to you

Nancy May:

is one thing, but I also think that it's important to let others around you

Nancy May:

know what those are so they don't try and impose their values or their sense

Nancy May:

of what you should be doing on you.

Nancy May:

And sometimes that takes a little bit of firmness to say, no,

Nancy May:

that's not what I want to do.

Nancy May:

That's not what I stand for.

Nancy May:

is that correct?

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: Yeah, I think it's great to share that with with other people.

Nancy May:

And I think it gives other people, kind of a framework

Nancy May:

also it helps them support you.

Nancy May:

so.

Nancy May:

the more concrete you can be with yourself, and identifying those

Nancy May:

values, the, the more, easier it will be to share that with other people.

Nancy May:

thank you, Evan.

Nancy May:

This has been, truly, I think a very important conversation that

Nancy May:

we all need to have With Ourselves.

Nancy May:

And with other family members and our friends, not just at the end when it

Nancy May:

hurts, it hurts a lot, but throughout the whole process of caregiving so that

Nancy May:

when that day comes, it's, I don't want to say it's easier, because there's

Nancy May:

nothing that can truly prepare you for the loss of somebody that you love.

Nancy May:

And, what I've learned is that each loss is different as much as somebody will

Nancy May:

say, ah, you know, it's kind of the same.

Nancy May:

No, I think that's, I think that's butkus.

Nancy May:

It's not true.

Nancy May:

because everybody's way that we exit this earth is slightly different too.

Nancy May:

Even if, The movies say otherwise, or somebody else tells you, but are there

Nancy May:

any sort of last parting words that you would want to share with my audience??

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: Yeah, to end on a, beautifully morbid note,

Nancy May:

please, dig that hole, no pun intended.

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: if we think of, You had drawn the analogy of parenting and caring

Nancy May:

for, uh, an elder, I think that death, end of life, loss is very intimate.

Nancy May:

And yes, it's scary.

Nancy May:

Yes, it's sad.

Nancy May:

And it's extremely intimate, and that's, I think a valuable framework

Nancy May:

in, everyone anticipates grief, it, it becomes, you think about it.

Nancy May:

It's not, it's not something that, like, oh, I never expected this to happen.

Nancy May:

if you're caregiving for someone, you've had those thoughts.

Nancy May:

And, I think that, appreciating the intimacy of it, will help kind of

Nancy May:

frame your experience around that.

Nancy May:

And so I think rather than viewing it as the, worst possible emotional

Nancy May:

experience, it may be the worst possible outcome, or the, the most challenging

Nancy May:

emotionally outcome, but also appreciating that it is, Truly the apex of intimacy

Nancy May:

on, on the caregiving journey.

Nancy May:

Even if you're not there for that final breath of that final

Nancy May:

moment, there are so many little things that happen to lead up to that.

Nancy May:

I'd say, you know, please, if, if you have missed being with somebody that you

Nancy May:

love, that has, has passed just before you could enter the door of the or their

Nancy May:

room, whatever that might be, understand that you have played such a pivotal

Nancy May:

role in their lives and they in yours.

Nancy May:

And I hope that you, you understand that that's something to be cherished.

Nancy May:

Evan Plys PhD: Absolutely.

Nancy May:

and thank you for, for clarifying that.

Nancy May:

It doesn't have to be that you're there at that moment.

Nancy May:

your physical presence is in, I would say, as important as your, general

Nancy May:

presence in the person's life.

Nancy May:

Thank you, Evan.

Nancy May:

This has been a very, very special and I, I hate to use the word caring

Nancy May:

with it because I don't have the word around it to really give it a proper

Nancy May:

due diligence or the proper meaning.

Nancy May:

But I think it's, it's a very personal discussion that we all

Nancy May:

need to have with ourselves.

Nancy May:

And I really, really appreciate and thank you for being here today as my guest.

Nancy May:

And all the work that you do.

Nancy May:

And for those who are listening, I will have a link to Evan's webpage

Nancy May:

so you can reach him and get more information on the work that he does.

Nancy May:

If you need some help, you can reach out to some of the work that's being

Nancy May:

done through Harvard and through Mass General Hospital up in Boston.

Nancy May:

And on that note, if you'd like to share a comment or a story that You

Nancy May:

think is important to us, to me and to others who are listening or just to

Nancy May:

yourselves, go to EldercareSuccess.Live there's a little blue tab on the right

Nancy May:

hand side of that page that you can click on, and there you can press it.

Nancy May:

A screen will pop up and you can leave me a voicemail message or just send

Nancy May:

me a written note that can share your comment, your ideas, your thoughts, or

Nancy May:

recommendations for other speakers and guests who can be of help to yourself

Nancy May:

and maybe other people who are listening.

Nancy May:

I'm sure they would be anyway.

Nancy May:

Also, please Please do not forget to subscribe, to share it with a friend,

Nancy May:

a family member, or even somebody who might be standing online at Starbucks

Nancy May:

because you never know who might be stressed out and freaking out thinking,

Nancy May:

Oh my God, what am I going to do next?

Nancy May:

It can be your gift to them because it's our gift to you.

Nancy May:

And do get the book, How to Survive 9 1 1 Medical Emergencies, a step by

Nancy May:

step guide before, during, and after.

Nancy May:

Guaranteed, you will be calling 9 1 1 more than once.

Nancy May:

So on that note, thank you for joining us here today.

Nancy May:

We'll see you on another episode, or we'll hear you on another

Nancy May:

episode of Eldercare Success.

Nancy May:

Take care, be well, and keep caring.

Nancy May:

Bye bye.

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