Let’s be honest, no one has it ALL figured out. As humans, we are constantly evolving and learning more about ourselves, others, and our world every day.

Our podcast guest this week, Lisa Jernigan, is a woman who has experienced unthinkable things in this world that most of us will never experience. She uncovers several trending topics such as forgiveness, how to look internally at who you are, and no matter what age you are, to keep learning!

Don’t miss this podcast interview with Patrick McCalla and his old friend, Lisa Jernigan on how to live a fulfilling life and to hear the life-changing 3-word mantra that she swears by!

The NO GREY AREAS platform is about the power, importance, and complexity of choices. We host motivating and informative interviews with captivating guests from all walks of life about learning and growing through our good and bad choices.

The purpose behind it all derives from the cautionary tale of Joseph N. Gagliano and one of sports’ greatest scandals.

To know more about the true story of Joe Gagliano, check out the link below!

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Hey, The week that this drops is a special week. Mother's Day. Happy Mother's Day to all of you mothers out there. But we have special guest Lisa Jernigan on This Week, and she talks about the difference between peacemaking and peace keeping and mothers.

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If there's anybody on this planet that does peacemaking, well, it's you. So listen, now,

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Lisa Jernigan, thank you so much for joining us on the No Go Areas podcast. We've known each other for how many years

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Oh, my gosh. Too many, right? But not enough.

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Yeah. Yes,

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right. Yeah. Yeah.

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trip.

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Mm hmm. And

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Right.

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kind of their identity, right? Yeah, right. That's true. Identity. Yeah. That's how we met. Cause you were in that space.

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How did you. I don't actually remember this part of your story. How did you guys end up doing that?

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You know, it was from an invitation from a friend,

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a gal that knew kind of we were in the yard for women and women and different seasons of life. And there was this group that was doing strip club ministry. I had never heard of it. And a gal that was in our church said she knew that I like edgy things, right?

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She goes, I think this would be something you might be interested in. And so she invited me, and for sure it was because then I just saw these women with a different heart. Right.

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Well, we're going to get into what you're doing now in a little bit, but. But you just mentioned that.

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That this friend knew that you liked edgy things.

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Yeah,

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years. Whatever you

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Yeah.

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You know what I would say? No, if somebody knew me earlier. I think it's always been a part of me. And then I got to a point that I let it out more.

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I started letting me be me kind of thing, you know, because I I've been in ministry my whole life and my whole adult life. I have been a pastor's wife, but I've never fit that role. But I also had to conform to that role in some things sometimes. And so I think over time I gave myself a little more permission to let that that part out of me.

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Oh, man, Lisa, we could do this whole podcast and what you just said where you said you, you, you didn't fit that role, I'm sure. I don't care what

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right.

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right?

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right?

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Okay. Decades. We have this with you. All right. Decades. Right. Right, exactly. Every wrinkle, every thing is life, right? Yes. Yes.

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Right.

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you know, that's quite a journey, as you know, because you've been in those places of ministry where you're like, How much do I push it?

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How much do I really be me? Because even in the work you were doing when you started, like in this, in the, you know, sex trafficking, that was a hard space. Anti right? Yes. Let me say that. Yeah. You weren't that anti and that's a key word.

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I think it's one of those things over time you have you know whether whatever role you're in you have a lot of voices telling you like what you should do.

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Are you feel that pressure to conform or like I remember growing up in the church, every pastor's wife I knew played the organ or piano or did something that have no gifts in that whatsoever. So I almost didn't marry my husband because I thought I can't play the piano or play the organ and organ. I'm dating myself.

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And so I thought I'd be a terrible pastor's wife because he can't do that. I don't have any outstanding gifts anybody would know about. I'm just me. And so for the longest time, I think I struggled with not feeling enough and even in that role. And then I just had to go. People are going to always have their opinions and say things.

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No matter what I do, I have to learn to be me and to be okay with me. And so one of the things even growing up and I don't know if you had this pressure like raising your kids, you have people telling you,

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you shouldn't do this or you should do that or Yes. And so when we were raising our kids, we we didn't have set schedules and stuff because we were in youth ministry.

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It's chaotic, right? And yet

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I was okay with that. And so Carl and I kind of came to that thing, like if if we're okay with it together and if I look at God and go, God, are you okay, then we're okay. But I had to get to that point. And then kind of let the other voices just kind of silence them a little bit, be informed by them, but not let them dominate.

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man. I hope anybody who's young, who's listening, can really hear that wisdom in that, because I think anybody at times and you in your twenties and thirties, you feel like I'm not enough.

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Oh, for sure. For sure

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great

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person and they have to figure that out. I asked

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family friend, couple that we spent a lot of time with my wife and I, and they were they were two or three decades ahead of us, Two decades ahead of us, I think.

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And I asked her once in like, if if you could go back, what would you what would you change?

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And she

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you figured

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Yes. Yes.

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so you, you feel like in some ways, as you started getting into these edgy things that you were running and we're going to talk about what this amplify piece, this thing that you're involved in Now, the part of that was a learning process for you to be okay with.

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This is just how I'm wired.

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Exactly.

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you know, you come to a point in life, you're like, I'm okay with who I am. Yeah, right. I don't focus on what I don't have. I focus on what God has given me, right? And I love people. I love connecting with people. I love listening to stories. I love asking questions. I started to learn to ask questions because I didn't like talking about myself.

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And when people ask me, I didn't like talking. And I had an experience where I started opening up with a friend that that was a good friend after my mom had died and I was having a really bad day and I really didn't open up and I just started. She asked me how I was doing and I started to really answer the question and she didn't know what to do with me not being okay because, you know, he's seen me as okay.

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And she flipped the conversation. And so I kind of shut down. I won't. She doesn't care, right? She doesn't really want to know. And from that moment on, I went, people don't really care about how I feel or what's going on. So I started flipping that where I go, okay, if people don't really care, I'm going to start asking them questions.

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So I started just and that's but I've loved that journey of asking people questions and learning from people and their stories.

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See, that's fascinating, Lisa, because some people could look at, you know, you're telling a story. Some people would look at that and say, well, you need to get better at sharing about yourself and miss the fact that because you were concerned about sharing with yourself, you didn't really know how to do it well or you weren't sure if people cared.

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You were learning a skill that is so underdeveloped in our world,

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in our culture, right?

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Oh, for sure. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. You know what? I don't haven't thought about that because I. But I think you're right. I think it's something you have to. You said you just asked a really good question. I love that you're leaning in with curiosity. Do you think it's a skill? How many people ask you questions? I know I'm going to flip it, though.

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Do you find that people ask you a lot of questions? Okay. No,

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My wife is amazing at asking questions, too. And I like asking questions. I've always been very interested in people, too. I don't know how many times we've gone to dinner with a couple or people and we walk away and we know a lot about them.

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Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yes, you can tell people's life story

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I've never thought of it that way, but I think when you put it that way, I think it's something I have developed and I think it is it possibly is a skill because you don't see a lot of people asking.

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You don't hear a lot of people asking questions. Right. And then taking the time to listen to them.

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Right.

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Do you think some of that comes from maybe a place of empathy or like

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reason that you're going to ask about someone else is because you. You may care about them. Like, even if you don't know them, they're

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Right.

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Oh, for sure.

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am very curious about people. And I love their stories and I learn from their stories. And people's stories take me to different places and open up. Open up worlds and imaginations. Right. And I take me out of a out of a box.

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I don't like living in a box.

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And so they take outside that box, right? And I find people fascinating.

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Yeah. You know, we read a book, my wife and I together years ago, and it was. There was a character in a fictional book, but it was a character. And they called him to notice her because he was always noticing. But he

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him because

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Right.

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Right.

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And I remember being so affected by that where I thought, Man, I want to start being

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recognized as and notice her.

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That's so good. That's so good.

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Well, do you find that now that you're aware of that, that you show up differently in conversations?

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Totally.

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Right.

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Mm.

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right

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people. But

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I found it. I learned so much more that way.

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Do you. Oh, for sure. And it makes life a lot more fun, right? Because when people come alive, when you start asking them questions because they feel valued and noticed and seen. Right, and then they come alive and then you can play off of that, Right?

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Well, this is a perfect bridge then into.

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So you are actually working with this because you talk about this as being a key part of what you're doing

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Mm hmm.

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Mm.

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Right

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So that kind of it was a kind of a slow process.

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I was in kind of a season where I, you know, one part of my life chapter had ended too soon, and I was kind of in that space going, I don't know what my purpose is. I don't know really what I'm passionate about now that I don't have this right.

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But I knew nothing. I knew I didn't know who these people were. You know, as a church where we lean into the know and, you know, and I kind of read up like, you know, how to dress appropriately and you know what to do. But I didn't really know who the audience would be. And I came to found out there were a lot of them were leaders in their countries in the Middle East.

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Yeah. And and business people that were very influential. And so I just remember one my first conversations having a conversation with a muslim man talking about Jesus and how much he loved Jesus. And he had tears in his eyes. And I'm like, I don't get tears in my eyes when they talk about Jesus, what is happening here? Right?

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And so I started asking him, So are you a Christian now? And he's like, Oh, no, I'm I'm a follower of Jesus. And so that that little conversation was really a catalyst for me going, I don't know a lot. Right? And I realize from that whole experience, those few days that my view of the world had been shaped primarily from my Western Christian American identity and box, and that the Kingdom of God is so much bigger and so much more inclusive.

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And I had to learn more. I there's a lot I didn't know. And so it just kind of catapulted me into a different journey. Like I got to start reading some things, meeting with people, break and unpacking this. And so I did kind of my own, I guess now you do. Or deconstruction, right, of faith. The things that I had grown up with, I had to go what was really truth and what was really culture and started just asking these question.

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Yes, because I had to get myself permission to do that. And I didn't know anybody else that was really doing that. So I had to start seeking people out. And by talking to different people saying, you should talk to this person, you should talk to this person. And so it led me on a journey of just talking to different people that had been on that same journey.

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difficult sometimes when we do that, right, because I've been on that journey

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right

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Yes,

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Yes. Right. Right.

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Right. And how was it for you? Like, do you feel like you're betraying or like, maybe I'm getting it wrong?

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Yeah, right.

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yeah.

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This is why you're really good at this. Because you keep flipping the

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script. I want to learn from you, too, because we're both in this journey,

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laughing about it. But seriously, like, this is why you are doing what you should be doing.

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Because

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interviewing you, and you keep turning

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me.

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right?

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right?

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Right.

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right?

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By association. Oh, for sure.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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Well, then, as I was meeting people on this journey, people started inviting me to travel mainly to the Middle East.

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And I remember after the Syrian crisis first hit and a lot of refugees were pouring into Jordan to Amman, I had met this woman that had worked. She was on the board of World Vision, had traveled to Africa, was involved in the AIDS, you know, during the nineties, and we had become friends. And she said, Hey, I want to learn about what's really happening with this crisis.

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Would you? I feel like I'm supposed to get on a plane and go over there and just go sit and learn? I know it sounds crazy. Do you want to go? And I said, You had me at crazy because it doesn't make any sense. Right? And so she got another two other women that were leading in organizations. And so four of us women went over there.

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She set up some meetings with some of the nonprofits over there. They're doing the work. They were actually in the camps. And so we got to go over there and go into the camps. And they were this was pretty pretty new, like maybe a year they had been there. But just to understand the impact on the country, the impact with and listening to these stories, So we were sitting in tents listening to these stories from youth.

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Oh, yeah, like this one young man who was amazing and he was in the college in in Syria about ready to graduate, had to flee, didn't bring any ID papers. And now he's stuck in Jordan because he has no ID. And I learned if you ever have to flee, you bring your you bring your passport, you bring your you bring ID with you because he's stuck in a country without an I.D. he can ever travel.

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And just listening to that story like realities of what this really meant. And then we started sitting and listening to women in tents that were really they were talking about how back at home they had two and three cars. They had washing machines, they had all this, and now they're sitting in tents, the little stove in the corner.

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And I just remember like, I don't know what to do with these stories, but it could be me like this. Why isn't this me? Like I could have been born and raised in Syria and had to flee and bring my family and I'm looking at especially these women who no one's really listening to, Right. And the children and going, These are the teachers.

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These are the people I want to learn from because resilience and just how to how to pivot, how to like, but also how to be the glue and how to go forward and not be better because a lot of them were like, that's you know, they're just sharing their stories. And I just realized that there's a better way to live, right?

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You used a term that I thought was really interesting. You said sit and learn

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you said

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Yes.

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We just wanted to go. Okay.

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right?

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right

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Sure.

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going in proximity and learning just sitting with them and just asking questions and just observing. So when you know that you're going, your main goal is to learn and to really see what's really happening, what's truth.

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You go with a different mindset and you're going from it's not a textbook, it's real life. And how do you listen to a story and how do you hold that story that's not right or wrong. So to the point of like deconstruction, we always go to a box of something's either right or wrong, right? But what if there's the space?

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Gray Right. I love that term because we were we were taught that gray is bad, right? But is gray bad,

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yeah. And you're not talking about morality

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No, I'm not. How do I hold to different truths, right?

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We wanted to sit and learn because what we are hearing on the news, we wanted to see if that's really reality, like really what's happening over here.

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And so it was we listened to NGOs, we listened to people that are practitioners in the weeds. We listen to the actual people that were forced from their, you know, from their homeland listening. How do they feel about it? What what's reality for them? How do they see a future? Right, Listening to families being torn apart that maybe never be brought together, where parents are sent to one country with that young man?

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I told you about, his parents are in another country. He's there. They will probably not ever see each other again because they can't get visas. Right, because they don't have ID. And you just start hearing these realities to learn them, to absorb them, to go, I don't know what to do. I got to hold this right. And that just started informing how I was seeing life and how I was seeing people.

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And it wrecked me. It disrupted me.

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sounds like you're describing that most of these things that we try to have simple answers for are far more complex than we

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right? Absolutely. Absolutely.

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yeah,

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rate. Right. Right. Way more complexity.

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Yeah. What did it teach you?

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This process that you've so you've traveled all over the world. So to name a few countries you've been to

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mainly the Middle East and Africa.

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I would go to places where of conflict. So Lebanon, Sudan, Iraq, Israel, Palestine, Egypt, Rwanda, South Africa. It's

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I was in Rwanda a couple of times and I understand just for the audience to set the stage a little bit when you were there, you're probably dealing when you talk about peace peacemaking, you're dealing with that genocide that happened in

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9

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MM

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Right. Actually live next door to each other. Yeah. They did the truth and reconciliation and we actually when I went with a few I said we really wanted to hear from women and we wanted to hear from victims and perpetrators if possible.

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And we did sitting next to each other. And I remember this one woman telling the story of her whole family was wiped out. And then she said it was this man sitting next to her and he just hung his head the whole time. She's talking. And then he talked and then they talked about how they had reconciled, how she had forgiven him.

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Which again, what box do you have for that? Right. I mean, what box? And

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they had to over a process of years. He was afraid of her. She was afraid of him. You can imagine. Right. Because he knew what he had done to her. She's like, I know what you're capable of. And so through this process, these truth and reconciliation things he owned, and, you know, when they would the perpetrators, when they would say where they buried their victims, they got less time in prison so they could put, you know, for part of the healing for the family.

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So he did his time. And then when he came out, they put them together and they had to build out, build houses, their homes together. So I say peace was built brick by brick, literally. And so they lived next door to each other now and again, you're sitting there listening to them going, I don't have a box for this kind of forgiveness.

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This is otherworldly. This is this is Jesus. Right? And they would say that.

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And again, for our audience, I think there's. There's no one that's listening that doesn't have someone who's hurt them, who they've struggled with forgiving or bitterness or feeling toward them. But then you're telling a story, and that's what you're saying. How do you hold onto that? Because you're telling a story about someone who this guy actually murdered their family

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Right. And neighbors. Right. So it just shows you that you

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go over next door and borrow an egg from your neighbor who murdered your family.

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Right. Right. Well, and it just there's so many lessons in there to unpacked, right at the power of forgiveness.

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Healing is possible. You don't forget, right?

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Forgiveness isn't forgiving.

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No, not at all. But

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there is reconciliation on the other side of that. But it comes from a power greater than ourselves, which is Jesus. Right. And it just taught me also, you can't compare stories, right? You can't go, Well, mine wasn't as bad. You know, every every all of us has issues where we need to practice forgiveness and where, you know, And so you personally.

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So a lot of the work I do as you're listening to this, I think it's really important to internalize it because peace starts with us. So as I'm listening to these stories too, I'm always going, okay, God, where am my own life? Am I holding where I'm not forgiving? Right. Where? Where? What is my story in this, too?

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And I think

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that's really hard to it's hard to look inside. But I really believe you can't give away what you don't own. And so if I'm going to say I'm a peacemaker, I have to practice it first. I have to own it before I can encourage others to be in their journey, too. And that's hard

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love what you just said.

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I can't give away what I don't own.

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right.

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right?

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complicated, messy.

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write,

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Right, right, right.

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Realizing that I'm capable to do some of these things? I think all of us are one decision away from making a bad decision. Right? And then just our humanity. It's taught me a lot about our humanity and our need for divinity, for God right in this world. And I think just, you know, being honest with myself, it's hard to be honest with ourselves.

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We want to give ourselves a lot of credit, a lot of grace. Right. And I think that is important. But I also think that you have to be willing to be honest about what's inside of ourselves. Right? Yeah.

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know, I don't know. You might have seen me smile a little bit when you said I realized I was capable.

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When I was walking through the Genocide Museum in Kigali, Rwanda.

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And that was in that. I mean, there's no words for that either.

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like I just got goose bumps right now sitting here. It just I remember I was in one of those,

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you know, looking at these horrific pictures of what neighbors did to neighbors.

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Yes.

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to. Oh, for sure.

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Mm

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hmm.

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right?

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Oh, for sure. Yeah. For sure. We want to say I'm better than that. But given the right circumstances and the right opportunity, could I

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I think those are questions we need to wrestle with ourselves. Like, how would I show up or where I would have been? And I look at a lot of these things, like in any situation where there's a racial narrative and you know, the civil rights or it's the genocide, if I was actually in that place, what I've actually shown up and been a part of stuff.

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And that's a really hard question because I don't know that I can answer that

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definitively, like, Oh yeah, I would, because no. And so then that motivates me today going, where are the places I should be showing up that I'm not

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so that's good.

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right? That's a hard one

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right?

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thing. Yes.

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Yes.

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right.

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So what? We talked about this a little bit before we turn the mics on. What's the difference between peacemaking and peacekeeping? Those are

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two words that we throw around a lot. But there's a difference.

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Huge difference. And it's such a good question because I think we always say, Oh, I'm doing peacemaking.

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To me, peacemaking is just perpetuating more of the status quo

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and keeping peace, keeping it just perpetuating more of the status quo. Right. I mean, I may be a keeper of peace. We're just going to keep it. We're not going to rattle anything. We're not going to disrupt anything. We're not going to disturb. We're just going to keep the peace.

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Can I part? Because I want you to keep going. But I don't want I want to make sure our audience understands.

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We're not necessarily talking when you start talking about this, we don't necessarily have to talk about racial recognition or

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no

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think your family think family and friends.

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Right. So in this context, think family and friends, not a cause, not a you know, but

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is just we're just trying to keep the status quo.

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just trying to keep

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Right? Right. We're not going to deal with real problems.

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We're not going to get in the messiness of it.

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We're just going to keep the peace, which is shallow and it's covering it can cover up things, right, that need to be brought to the surface, which peacemaking a very uncomfortable, messy, disruptive. But it also is transformational. Peacekeeping is not so transformational. It's more trans active. Right.

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So peacekeeping is trans active. Peacemaking is transformational.

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Yeah, That's how I that's how I would see it.

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Because what I've learned through the journey is peace is beautiful. Who doesn't want peace, right? But peacemaking can be brutal. Yeah. And I think what you've done over the years, you've you've you have scars of being a peacemaker. I mean, you're getting into those places of injustice, of oppression. But even just the messiness with relationships. Right. And it's it's hard.

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It's really hard, you

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Yeah, for sure.

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Peacekeeping is the easier way to do it.

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Oh, for sure.

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peacekeepers.

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Right.

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right now,

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Because yes. Oh, for sure.

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I'm like, I don't want to deal with it. We're just going to keep the peace. Just keep the of what is right. We're not going to get in and confront or dive into and challenge anything. We're just going to maintain. Right. And we think that's a good thing. A lot of times sometimes it can be There's moments you have to know when is the right moment right to disrupt or get in there.

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But overall, if all you say is I'm just a peacekeeper, you're not really challenging things, right? You're not really creating transformation.

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Isn't that interesting? You unpack the difference between peace, peacekeeper and peacemaker.

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and his longest

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makers

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right?

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right, right. And so was Jesus a peacekeeper or was he a peacemaker or a peacemaker, Right.

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there's no where. He said, just be okay with the status.

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Yeah. He challenged all the time. He was a peacemaker.

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We ended up on a cross

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That's why it's costly. Peacemaking is costly.

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Yeah. So why would you do it?

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Because I have to. Because I believe in the core of my being. That's a calling. That's part of my identity as a peacemaker. And I believe it's the way of Jesus.

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I believe it's the way of the gospel.

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Do you think all of us are called to that?

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I do,

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Because I think that's the heart of God, is to, you know, peace started in the garden and we're the shalom of God, the wholeness, the completeness. Right? And then we know the story. Then sin entered and there's a separation.

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But I think God is saying, I want you to long for you. I want that wholeness what I intended in the garden. And that has been broken. I want peacemakers to return to that place. I want people that are willing try to make this world trying to be part of the transformation to usher in Shalom again. Right. And so I think we're called to be peacemakers to Yeah.

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You know, to try to get us back to the garden right where Shalom first raised.

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shalom is again, for our listeners, it's a Hebrew word, right? And it's one of my favorite. When you go over to the Middle East and Israel,

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Yeah,

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right,

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right,

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right.

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Shabbat shalom.

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But that's a that's a deep, deep word.

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deep word

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Mm. Yes.

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Right, right, right.

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Right? Right.

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Much deeper. Oh, really? It's well, again, it's going into the messy places. The hard places, right? Because you have to deal with the injustices, right? You have to deal with those places that of separation. Yeah. To bring healing. Shalom is bringing healing and I think God is looking for his people to be healers and reconciler and and forge the way of forgiveness and love.

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guys have three words that you use for your Amplify piece,

Unknown

We we do. So we have a framework of these three words that really frame the work. We do everything and we break them down in different ways, but they're how do we posture ourselves as first of all, listeners, to truly listen, to sit and listen to put ourselves in a place of I'm not the expert coming in, I need to listen to you.

Unknown

I'm not always the teacher that some of our best teachers are the ones we are not listening to right there. The women in the refugee camps, they're the unsheltered people sitting in our communities. They're my neighbor across the street, whoever that is. Who do I know their story? How can I listen to them and then posture yourselves as learners?

Unknown

Like, how do I lean in with curiosity to go? There is more to the story. There's more to learn. I do not know it. All right. Again, I. I need to learn. I need to come in here not telling people and not leading a conversation with my opinion, but come in to learn and then if we posture ourselves as listeners and learners, then it should inform us to live differently.

Unknown

So our three words are Listen, learn and live. How do I live differently as a result of this? Like, what do I need to change with that myself? And it may be I need to forgive somebody. I need to forgive a family member. I need to forgive a neighbor. I need to forgive a coworker. Maybe that's where it starts, right?

Unknown

Yeah.

Unknown

how would you say practically or give some practical advice to me in the audience on how do we get better at listening?

Unknown

Because when you get those three words, I think, you know, and I love that the order of those because it starts with

Unknown

this. Mm hmm. I

Unknown

Right? Right. We have

Unknown

right?

Unknown

right?

Unknown

rate listen longer than is comfortable. Be in that space. Right? Just go. I am not here to talk. I can share a few things. And it's not that you go mute. It's just like, am I really listening to to learn?

Unknown

Am I really listening to that person to validate them? When we when I leave this conversation with them, do they feel valued and seen? That's kind of part of my thing too, because then I've listened to them,

Unknown

you know?

Unknown

okay, that's great practical advice. So if they leave the table and they feel valued, they feel like they have dignity because of the way that you listened and the questions you asked, you would say that's a sign that you listened well.

Unknown

I would think that's one that's part of the thing. Yeah,

Unknown

Well, and it's what you said earlier about the notice her because you have that word in your and your mind, Right. So when you're going into a conversation, it frames how you show up. So if you tell yourself I'm going to be a listener in this conversation, it changes how you show up.

Unknown

Yeah, right. Because you remind yourself. And then I think if you're a listener going to give eye contact, like I'm physically going to show up differently. I'm going to give eye contact because, you know, somebody is talking to you and they're always looking around. You're like, you're not really listening to me. And we've all been in conversations constantly.

Unknown

Were you you pick up, they're not really listening, right? Yeah,

Unknown

understand that which is why when we were just talking in the lobby, I

Unknown

and watching the door over there because

Unknown

get it right. Right,

Unknown

right.

Unknown

Right.

Unknown

we got locked out right now.

Unknown

And then you had me watching all the time. Was, well, it tells somebody you're distracted. Yes. Right. So how do I show up? And I'm like, I want you to feel like you're the most important person in this room right now, Right? Then nothing else matters. You know, what's really hard for me is because I have FOMO. I feel like, you know, the fear of missing out.

Unknown

Right. And so if I'm in a room where there's a lot of activity, I want to be watching it. Right? Like, what am I missing? Who is going on? So if I'm in a conversation with somebody, I have to tell myself, focus, focus, focus, because my tendency is to go, oh my gosh, what are they doing over there?

Unknown

That that looks really fun and interesting, right?

Unknown

which is telling the person that you're supposed

Unknown

Oh, right. Like, yeah,

Unknown

you know who modeled it so well? For me, in my twenties, I was a teacher and a coach and

Unknown

the principal of the school that I taught at.

Unknown

I soon found out the guy was busy beyond what I can imagine. I mean, just the issues that a principal would administrative or school that deal with. But when you walked in it, when I would walk in his office, he had a computer screen like this. And, you know, he'd be working on his computer screen. And I would walk in and I would sit down and he would do this.

Unknown

He would turn his screen and then he would turn toward

Unknown

wow, I've never felt wow, decades ago.

Unknown

That's amazing

Unknown

Right.

Unknown

Yes. Yes.

Unknown

right.

Unknown

and it's hard and it it it starts with awareness. Right. Am I aware of how I'm showing up right now? Yeah, right.

Unknown

So? So, again, that takes work, takes energy.

Unknown

is it worth it? Like, again for me in the audience, you're saying, you know, you're saying practically, if you become a better listener, it's going to take you a long ways.

Unknown

Why?

Unknown

Because people are worth it. People matter, relationships matter. I mean, at the end of the day, it's relationships. It's people. Yeah, right.

Unknown

It's not all the doing right.

Unknown

It's just being.

Unknown

So I cyberstalking you before this.

Unknown

Oh, okay.

Unknown

Okay.

Unknown

something that you had written.

Unknown

So let me just read it and then you give some commentary on it.

Unknown

You did a talk title was War Risk or Sorry Waging in a Hostile World. Waging Peace in a Hostile World. That caught my attention right away. Because usually when we use the word waging, the next word is.

Unknown

war. Yeah.

Unknown

It is kind of like going to war, waging peace, right? Because it's hard and it takes, you know, everything that you do in going to war.

Unknown

And we're so wired for war more. I got to fight for my rights. Fight for this. Right? But what if we took that same energy toward peace? Right. And we just we use those terms waging, but we use it because there's power in peace. Right. And we see that peace. That's what we need in our world right now for sure.

Unknown

Right. And it is a hostile world on many levels.

Unknown

And it's the great hope of the future for anybody who's a person of faith. That's. That's the promise is

Unknown

right?

Unknown

Oh, for sure.

Unknown

right

Unknown

right?

Unknown

Physical, spiritual, emotional. Social.

Unknown

Beautiful day to think about.

Unknown

Okay, here's a quote that you had. Peacekeeping is tempting, but destructive. Peacemaking is difficult, but rewarding. You just talked about it

Unknown

Mm hmm. I did.

Unknown

I just think that what matters, right? Think about what really matters. And peace matters and that holistic peace that getting and being willing to create change and to disrupt things because pieces disruptive because, you know, it's easy to go to war to fight. I mean, that kind of is our tendency, right?

Unknown

You got to fight for our rights and to fight for this. And sometimes it is you got to do that. But a lot of times it's got to fight for peace, too. Yeah. Because to me, fighting for peace is fighting for people.

Unknown

is fighting for people.

Unknown

Right.

Unknown

that in the context again, when I take it away, because sometimes it's too abstract to think about, like,

Unknown

It is too abstract.

Unknown

all right,

Unknown

Exactly. Exactly.

Unknown

peace with my children, I'm fighting

Unknown

for that right. Right.

Unknown

Right.

Unknown

Right. It makes it personal, right? Because like you said, abstract. You hear numbers.

Unknown

You know,

Unknown

8 billion people on the planet. Right. And there was, you know, hundreds of thousands or you know, and you are minds can't wrap around that number. It's just too big. But when I go by the name by this group of people, that is personal. Yeah, yeah, it's personal. And then I'll do something.

Unknown

Because it's personal.

Unknown

Because it's personal.

Unknown

Right

Unknown

Mm mm.

Unknown

Mm. You know

Unknown

and touch.

Unknown

I mean the thing we learned from Mother Teresa and Jesus touch people, touch the untouchables, right? And that's hard, but that's kind of what peacemakers do.

Unknown

they feel it, They know it. They see it.

Unknown

One of my favorite passages is after Jesus gives that longest message that

Unknown

right? And

Unknown

Mm

Unknown

He didn't need to touch him to heal him.

Unknown

Not at all.

Unknown

With a word.

Unknown

Yeah. Mm. Word

Unknown

Right.

Unknown

So that that has always stood out to me. That's what you're saying.

Unknown

I'm listening

Unknown

Right, right,

Unknown

How do people find out about what you're doing or connect with you?

Unknown

Yes. Amplify peace. Accom Yeah. I love people,

Unknown

to join us and to share their stories and be a part of kind of a movement.

Unknown

Unknown

my lifetime, I don't think I've seen our country as torn apart as it has been

Unknown

that.

Unknown

MM.

Unknown

right.

Unknown

Sure.

Unknown

that's tearing apart the splitting.

Unknown

agree with you. In my lifetime, I just can't see a more important

Unknown

time.

Unknown

Everything has been dividing us. And we saw that through the pandemic. Right?

Unknown

Every decision created division, especially in the church.

Unknown

You appeased one group, but you alienated another. And we just saw that. And in the church and outside the church. And what if there's just a better way, a different way, Right of peace. What is what is the way a peace say? It's like I'm not going to hold you to my standards, Right. I'm going to go when a hold on holds us.

Unknown

Right. Because I'm an honor you as a person. I'm going to treat you with dignity and respect because you're created in the image of God, just like me right

Unknown

that's a great one to end on right there. I love that. I love that. Thank you. Well, Lisa, one of the things we do on

Unknown

the kind of you prepared me.

Unknown

years. Yeah, I think

Unknown

So I'm trying.

Unknown

right? And

Unknown

you know, for about 45 minutes. Right.

Unknown

You know what? This is always so hard to figure it out. Right? And I want to hear your future. So I do. Oh, for you to show. You do?

Unknown

Yeah, I didn't have time to think about it. My wife was on her podcast recently. You know how hard it was for us to come up with two truths and lie

Unknown

for each other.

Unknown

Oh, my gosh. We've

Unknown

Did you stump each other at all she got? Oh, you lost.

Unknown

Right. It's really a hard thing to do, right? That

Unknown

Now I try not to know.

Unknown

It was hard to do it. Okay,

Unknown

So I've been shipwrecked. Okay? I've met President Biden, okay? And I've been held at gunpoint.

Unknown

Ooh, those are good. Shipwrecked. You met President Biden. You held at gunpoint. I can see all three of those happen to you because you you've gone into the hard places.

Unknown

I'm going to say that you've been held at gunpoint because of where you've been.

Unknown

And I'm going to say you've met President Biden. It's the shipwrecked on who stays away

Unknown

round. Oh, you're so happy. I love it. Yes. That's all good. And so we actually write this. This is a funny story. So we took a group to Greece and Turkey.

Unknown

Yeah. And, you know, you kind of you're going to and it's it's a ship, but it's not like our cruise ships. Right. So the ship, it was really funny what's coming in to the island of Crete. And when we were coming in, it hit the dock at a bad angle because the waters are rough and it took out a gouge in the side of the boat.

Unknown

So we had to dock there for a day and a half so they could repair the boat. So we were shipwrecked on Crete. Got a bad we kind of felt like, All right, all right, so

Unknown

which one was the lie?

Unknown

which I. Biden is a lie.

Unknown

Oh, really?

Unknown

Yeah.

Unknown

Yeah. There's a lot of famous people, but I had actually met Trump before 20 years ago at something.

Unknown

Yeah. Which

Unknown

See, that was. That was good, because you threw in there earlier the National Prayer Breakfast

Unknown

Right.

Unknown

Right.

Unknown

Right.

Unknown

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. Yeah, Yeah.

Unknown

us.

Unknown

Right, Right. Thank you. Thank you.

Unknown

Well, that was amazing with Lisa.

Unknown

And again, she gave us a lot of nuggets of truth to really brew on. Like, how do we forgive?

Unknown

Not necessarily forget, but how do we forgive? How do we be peacemakers versus peacekeepers? And so

Unknown

if you have any comments about being peacemakers, if you have any questions or comments about how to forgive us, email us at info at no gray areas dot com and remember to follow like and subscribe