This episode of Second Helping features a detailed discussion with Sheriff Leon Lott of Richland County about the implications of South Carolina's new open carry law, H 3594, signed into law on March 7th. Lott, with over 30 years in law enforcement, expresses concerns over the bill allowing 18-year-olds to carry guns without training or background checks, complicating law enforcement's job and potentially endangering public safety. The episode emphasizes the importance of training and responsible gun ownership.

00:00 Kicking Off with a Deep Dive into Gun Rights

00:21 A Candid Conversation with Sheriff Leon Lott

02:37 Exploring the Impact of South Carolina's New Gun Law

03:21 The Sheriff's Concerns: Youth, Training, and Responsibility

12:28 Addressing the Challenges of Open Carry and Responsible Ownership

14:16 Navigating a New Reality: Advice for Citizens and Business Owners

16:37 Reflecting on the Second Amendment in Modern Times

18:33 Closing Thoughts and the Importance of Training

19:08 Wrapping Up: Insights and Production Credits

Copyright 2024 Grace Cowan

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I am so excited to start this week's episode of Second Helping. If you listened to Wednesday's episode, you heard us talk about the history of gun right ownership in the United States. Today, we're going to have a serious conversation about the bill That was signed into law on March 7th. We are going to talk with Sheriff Leon Lott from the Richland County Sheriff's Office.

He has been a sheriff for more than 30 years, and he had a really strong opinion on H 3594. Have a listen. Let us know what you think. Sheriff, it's so wonderful to have you on this episode of Frogmore Stew's Second Helping. Welcome.

Well, thank you. I look forward to having a good conversation with you.

So Sheriff, I obviously did a little bit of reading about you. And as a youth, you were arrested for throwing eggs at vehicles and one of them happened to be the Chief Investigator of the Sheriff's Department. Tell us about that story.

Uh, just a typical 16 year old in the summer bored with your friends and we decided we would egg cars and particularly police cars and we did and got caught and got arrested and went through a diversionary program and it made me think about the consequences of what I had done and I had not.

Thought about that as a 16 year old. I just thought it was neat to hit cars with eggs, but then they made me open my eyes on how I could really hurt someone. So, in college, after I decided I was a good baseball player, but not good enough for the major leagues, what was I going to do with my life? And I just kept going back on how that made such an impression upon me.

And I said, I would want to do the same thing with with young people. And that's what got me into law enforcement.

That is so incredible. So you became a patrol officer in Richland County in 1975. Is that correct?

That's correct. Graduated from the University of South Carolina, uh, in May of 75 and one month later started at the sheriff's department.

Oh my goodness. And here you are all these years later, the sheriff and you've been the sheriff now since what? 1996? Yeah. 1996.

Elected 96 took off as a 97. So this is my 28th year.

I read that in 2021, you were the first South Carolinian ever to receive Sheriff of the Year by the National Sheriffs Association. So congratulations.

Well, thank you. And that was quite an honor that even though I'd been nominated, An organization called Police2Peace that we had partnered with was the one who nominated me and we've done some good things on trying to change the narrative of who we are and what we really do in this profession and they've been very instrumental in that.

It's an incredible honor and again, an honor to have you on talking with us today. today. And we are not talking about something that's easy. I think for South Carolinians, we've focused this week, our Wednesday episode on the history of gun rights in the United States. And today we're going to talk specifically about South Carolina, because the majority of the people who listen to our podcast are based here in South Carolina.

And they all know that on March 7th, Governor Henry McMaster signed the bill into law H 3594 constitutional carry. And so I'd love to. Let's start this conversation with you talking about the fact that you in a Post and Courier article said that you prayed that South Carolina would not become the wild, wild West.

Can you expand on that a little bit? Why is that your opinion of this bill?

Just allowing 18 year olds to openly carry a gun or even have a gun, they can't even buy a beer in South Carolina until you're 21. But here we are allowing 18 year olds with no training. Whatsoever to have a gun and openly carry a gun and it just concerns me as the gun violence amongst our young people have is on an increase and we're doing so much to curb that here.

We are kind of doing the opposite and saying, okay, here's your gun. You can carry it then. We can't do anything with them. We're not even supposed to ask them if they've got a gun or see them with a gun and ask them anything. And it, it just concerns me with the number of young people we have that are being victims of gun violence, that we're going to have an increase.

So yeah, I did say a prayer, I hope my fears don't come true. I really pray that they don't come true, but I guess this is something we're just going to have to see.

So what you're referring to is the fact that prior to March 7th, you were able to stop individuals. that had a concealed or open carry weapon to check their credentials. Is that correct?

We were able to stop someone and then if someone had a concealed weapons permit and you stopped their vehicle, first thing they had to do was tell you, I have a concealed weapons permit and I have a gun in the car. Now that's been taken away. They don't have to tell us. We approach a car now, they can have five guns in a car and not have to tell us anything at all.

To me, it just puts a little bit extra danger within our, our deputies and our police officers in the state. And so we've had to do a lot of retraining on the new law, and we'll just have to see where it goes. We took the opposite approaches. Instead of getting guns off the street, we've now put more guns on the street.

Do you think there's any benefit to the individual citizen? I mean, there must have been someone who thought, this is a good idea that we don't have to tell police officers that we have guns in the car.

This was one of the first laws that, as long as I can remember, that legislature did not take recommendations of law enforcement.

Usually they listened to us, particularly sheriffs, but this time they did not. So I wish there would have been some things that we would have been able to get changed. You know, if they were going to pass it, then let's clean up a few things like now you can carry your guns on school campuses and long as you have them in the trunk or in a glove compartment, you can have them on campus.

So now that senior out of high school who brings his gun to school, he has it in his glove compartment, something happens, makes him mad, he has immediate access to go to his car now and have his gun. That scares me too again. I was 16 years old and threw eggs at a car. That was my major crime. Now we have 16 year olds, 17, 18 years old, even younger, they're not throwing eggs, they're throwing bullets and that's different.

That's what concerns me a lot about this law. I've been one of the biggest proponents of concealed weapons permit. I really support that and we push that because it has training. It trains you how to use a gun but also when to use a gun. That's been removed now so the worst thing you can have is a gun in an untrained person's hand and now we've allowed that.

So it's taken away that training. It's a different attitude. I'd venture to say most of your listeners are not people that we're worried about. It's that 18 year old. that has got that gun. That's what concerns me. So when this law was passed, we didn't look at the impact that it would have maybe negatively on the large population of all the South Carolinians.

We just looked at small groups that say, okay, I can carry my gun now. Okay, well, what about this other group that's going to be carrying guns that are out here that were trying to get guns out of their hands?

So, to that point about training, I watched an interview on Live 5 News where Senate Majority Leader Senator Shane Massey said, even though training is not required, it is strongly encouraged.

And I think there are going to be a lot of people who at first say they're not going to go through the training and I'm not going to go through the permit process. But then they look at the potential consequences of not doing it. And I think they will. What does he mean by potential consequences? I mean, you read the bill, it seems quite ambiguous.

Are you familiar with consequences he's talking about?

I have not seen any consequences in that whatsoever. And I know they appropriated some 4 million to SLED to create. A training program where twice a month in each county, 46 counties, there will be training available. That's free. Alright, your listeners may go do that, but that 18 year old is not going to get it.

So we have two sets, different sets of populations that this impacts. Those who listen to this podcast and we have those who are not listening to this podcast who are the ones right here shooting each other and our kids are dying.

You said you can't stop people. You have 18 year olds who are carrying weapons without a permit, no training, no background checks are required.

How is this going to influence your training for police?

We have to train our officers now to, one, to follow the law. Previously, if we stopped a car and it was a concealed weapons permit holder, first thing they'd have to say by law is, I have a gun, I have a CWP. Now, you don't have to say anything, and you can carry the gun anywhere, on the seat, in your lap.

Honor to seat all over the places like that, where before that was unlawful. You could not do that. You had had either concealed weapons permit or have the gun in your trunk or in your glove compartment. Now you can carry it anywhere and you stop a car, multiple people in it. Everybody's got a gun. You're outnumbered, you're outgunned.

So we gotta trainer officers on have be more safety conscious.

Maybe even going back to the point when to shoot, is that change?

No, it hasn't changed. That part hasn't changed. The standard's always been for law enforcement and also for civilians is that someone's life has to be in immediate danger for you to use deadly force.

Either your life as an officer or a citizen or someone else's life is in immediate danger. It's not something that's happened 10 minutes ago, but right now, immediate danger, then you can use deadly force. Look at this 18 year old. 20 year old who cannot go buy a beer because they're not old enough, but they can carry a gun.

You know, the accountability on their actions that they mostly probably never had before in their life. Now they're able to carry that deadly weapon. And that's, that worries me.

I agree with you in terms of 18 is way too young to be carrying a gun without training. I mean, I was. lucky that I was probably driving my car at 18, but I'm 38 and I don't have any training.

I've never held a gun in my life and I cannot imagine someone giving me a gun and me just carrying it around. I would not know. How I would react without training, defining what imminent danger looks like. And I find myself to be a responsible, respectful citizen of the state of South Carolina, but I wouldn't trust me with a gun in a difficult situation.

And that's what made the CWP to me so valuable was that it did train you. And I guess I'm going to ask you a question, and as this law has changed, I've asked this to every group I've spoke to, does this law make you feel safer? Me personally, no. Okay, and I've yet to have anybody tell me, yes, it makes me feel safer.

And that's across all demographics. I've asked that question. Does this make you feel safer? And nobody said yes. So why did we do it? What was the motivation to do it besides our second amendment that goes back to Hundreds of years. What did it do to make our community safer and our people safer? That's what we should focus on when we pass laws.

What does it do to make us a better society, a better community, a better state, and protecting our people more? I don't see that with this law.

Do you have a hunch as to why we did it?

No. I, I, I really don't. I I had nobody explain that to me except. It's our Second Amendment right. That's the standard answer from the few people that I've talked to in the legislature that support us, is that that's our right.

But you have to have a license to drive a vehicle, you have to have a license to cut hair, you have to have a license to do a lot of things. A car could be considered a deadly weapon too, but you know, kids have to get a permit. They have to go through driver training before you're able to go out and drive a car by yourself.

You don't have that with a gun. I've heard some people say, okay, well, at 18, you can join the army and you can be issued a gun. I said, yes, you can join the army. You'll be issued a gun after you're trained on how to use that gun. Military does not hand you a gun and say, okay, here you got this weapon.

There's training involved in it. We have lost sight on how valuable that training should be. And there's no responsible gun ownership either.

How would you define Responsible gun ownership. I think this is a really important point.

Have some training and always protect that gun. And one of our deputies came up with a great slogan recently.

Your vehicle is not a holster. Don't leave your gun in it. So many people leave their guns in their vehicles and leave their vehicles unlocked. And to me, a responsible gun owner doesn't do anything like that. You have to protect that gun. You have to understand that gun is a killing weapon. It will take someone's life.

And once that bullet leaves the gun, you can't call it back. You can't say, Oh, I didn't mean to do that. I didn't mean to pull the trigger. The bullet's gone and damage is going to be there. Our young people don't have the conscience and the thought process to understand the consequences of their actions when they do fire a gun.

That's what worries me.

Let's talk about SLED, which is South Carolina Law Enforcement Division. You all put out some guidance just after I think the law was signed. And one of the things that SLED is actually tasked with doing is to roll out a public awareness campaign across the state about the law. And I'm wondering if you had any advice for the designers of the campaign, what would you say to them?

Emphasize training and emphasize being a responsible gun owner. To me, that's two of the most important things. Training is important and then be a responsible gun owner. That means having that gun secure.

Every year, we hear of a child who finds a gun and either shoots and kills themselves or kills another child playing with a gun. That is not a responsible gun owner where you leave your gun where a child can get their hands on it. Just recently, we had one of our police dogs get shot and deputy shot at by a 17 year old and a 14 year old who were going into vehicles at night.

They went into a man's truck who left his key fob in there for them to be able to drive the truck and left his gun in there. And that gun was used to shoot our dog and shoot at us. That is not a responsible gun owner. Mm hmm. He could have prevented my dog from being shot, the deputies from being shot at, and a 14 and 17 year old maybe getting locked up for some very serious charges by being a responsible gun owner.

Like leaving his vehicle unlocked, not leaving his gun in there.

Sheriff Lott, are there any statutes on the books that would hold somebody accountable for leaving a gun in an unlocked car?

No. None whatsoever. There's no law against stupidity, and that's stupidity when you do something like that. There's no law that forces you to be a responsible gun owner.

I don't own a gun. I don't shoot a gun regularly. What advice do you have for citizens who don't want to own guns, but don't feel safe?

Be careful. Be aware of your surroundings when I say that. If you go somewhere and you see a bunch of people carrying guns, you make a choice to either stay there or leave.

You have to really be more aware of your surroundings now with people that are being armed and particularly those that are open carrying. And what we've already seen at least once and probably going to see some more is some young kids seeing somebody openly carrying a gun and they rob that person and take their gun away from them.

I think we're gonna see more crimes like that. I've carried a gun my whole career. 49 years I've carried a gun. When I'm in my uniform I have on now, my gun is in the open. People see it. But if I'm not in this uniform, I don't openly carry my gun, and I can't as a sheriff, as a police officer. It's concealed.

I don't want everybody to know I got a gun. What purpose does that serve? What message are you sending if you walk around with two six shooters on your side that everybody can see? I don't see the safety part of it. I don't see how it makes anybody feel safer. Maybe that person walking around with them where everybody can see them, maybe that makes them feel safer, but I don't think it makes anybody else that sees them safer.

Sir, with the new Open carry law in effect, are business owners and private citizens still able to prevent somebody from bringing a gun onto their property, you know, with one of those, uh, properly measured and sized, no weapons allowed signs at the entrance?

That is still in play. If you have, as a business owner or property owner, you can designate your place as no concealed weapons or no weapons allowed.

You can place that sign. Same size, same everything as previously. Nobody can bring a gun in there. That still stays in effect. And what you're going to see now, is more people are going to be doing that, I think. As they don't want people in there openly carrying, they're going to put that sign up. So you go to the grocery store, and your grocery store has it marked, where you're going to leave your gun.

You don't leave it in your vehicle, then that's going to give more opportunities for somebody to go into your vehicle and take your gun. We've just put more guns on the street is what we've done. We have just put a whole lot more guns on the street than we've ever had before.

Wow. I knew that I didn't like this bill before, but that one line, Sheriff, it definitely makes me feel a whole lot less safe.

What strikes me here, this idea that there is a freedom in carrying The guns, the right to bear arms as an individual was only enshrined into interpretation in the law in 2008 with the Heller Supreme Court ruling. As you were talking about me, a non gun owner, and I don't have a desire to own a gun. I now have to have less freedom because I can't necessarily eat at the restaurant I want or go to the concert venue I want or participate in a activity for fear that someone who isn't trained and doesn't have a permit will end up shooting, similar to what they did at the Kansas City Super Bowl celebration.

And now I'm nervous to be in public settings and that doesn't feel free or like the American dream at all.

Again, when our forefathers wrote the Second Amendment, our country was a different place than it is today. Guns were used for different reasons then, but we've carried that concept all the way now to 2024, when it was written in the 1700s.

So has the world changed? Yes. Have we changed with it? Some ways we have, but here we are in this, we have not. And I don't believe the Second Amendment put the age of 18 in there. Who decided, okay? Okay. Okay. The magic age is going to be 18. What's the thought process behind that of picking that age of 18?

Why didn't you pick 18? 21. Why didn't you pick 11?

There are cognitive behavioral specialists out there that say our brains don't fully form until 25. So why not 25?

Right. I know at 18 years old, I was a high school senior, getting ready to go to college. Now, I know a whole lot more today than I knew then, um, you know, responsibilities and consequences.

At 18, I didn't have that. To drive a vehicle on the roads, you got to go through training. To buy a beer, you got to be 21. To carry a gun, 18. Nobody's answered that.

Well, Sheriff, is there anything else that you want to share with us today?

If you're going to get a gun, or even you have a gun now, go get trained.

You know, the training's going to be for free. You can get it all throughout the state. Go do that. If your spouse or your child wants to have a gun, push them to go get trained. Let's get them trained, and then be a responsible gun owner. Do what I did the night that passed. Just pray that we don't turn into the wild, wild West.

Well, sir, I have enjoyed so much having you on the podcast today. I hope you'll come back in the future and just thank you so much for spending time with us. All right. Well, thank you. I enjoyed it. That's all the stew for today.

The second helping podcast is written and hosted by Grace Cowan and Kaitlin Brewer, editing and IT support provided by Eric Johnson, produced and directed by TJ Phillips with the podcast solutions network.