Shelley Pearson joins Emily and Corinne to talk about her self-published YA book Book Smarts and Tender Hearts, which has been nominated for a 2019 Oregon Book Award.

Shelley talks with Emily and Corinne about making friends with strangers the old fashioned way—through placing an ad in a magazine! Other topics include: writing mentorship, managing emotions while creating and promoting, and of course her favorite YA books.

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like, the Mexican plate. And he, like, sent me a picture of it.

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best of everything that

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the best of everything,

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welcome to the hybrid hub Scout podcast with me. Emily

einerlander, hello.

We're sharing a microphone today,

we are also mapping the frontier between traditional and indie

publishing, and so if you hear us trading off strangely in

between everything, that is why so

10 points for creative banter, that's right, yes. And today we

have Shelley Pearson On. Shelley Pearson is a self published

whoop starting over.

Shelley Pearson self published her first zine when she was 16.

She grew up making art and crafts, and despite being an

adult, has always gravitated toward young adult books. She

leads a book club for adults to discuss young adult books

through a queer and feminist lens, and self published her

first young adult novel in July of 2018

the novel, book smarts and tender hearts was recently named

a finalist for the Oregon Book Award in young adult fiction.

She lives in Portland with her girlfriend and two cats. Hi, hi.

Hello. Hello. Thank you for being here. Thank you. Welcome

and real quick. Book smarts and tender hearts is a queer coming

of age story about a teenage girl in the 90s whose

relationships with the people closest to her are changing. She

gets through it with zines, new friends and one very special pen

pal,

all right, but Corinne is going to tell us a little bit about

the Oregon Book Award. Okay, cool. I literally have like a

sentence to read, but I'll tell you about it. The Oregon book

awards honor the state's finest accomplishments by Oregon

writers who work in genres of poetry, fiction, graphic

literature, drama, literary, nonfiction and literature for

young readers, that's pretty much it so great, yep.

Okay, well, I guess we might as well jump right in. Okay,

interviewing you. Shelly, are you? Are you ready? I'm ready.

Are you ready? Is this? Is this your first podcast? Yeah, it is.

It's my first podcast ever. Special. Thank you. I'm very

excited to be here. We're very excited to have you here. We

didn't you won all the Oregon Book Award nominees came out.

Yeah, I was very excited, too. Yeah, so I'm going to probably

go out of order, but I'm okay. I'm curious about

how you submitted the book for nomination. Like, how did that

go as a self published author? Well, anyone can just submit

their book. So there's like a form you fill out online, and

you pay like, $50 and send them a copy. And that's what I did.

And I really I was, I didn't expect to be, not to be a

finalist or anything. I was just like, Well, I'll try it. Might

as well, and I'm a finalist. And then the award ceremony is in

April, so we'll find out then who the winner is. We'll be

there. Oh, really, yeah, we're all gonna go. Oh, one of our,

can we talk about Michelle? Get in there. So one of one author

that we work with at work, her book was nominated also, was it

children's non fiction? Yeah, category. So, yeah, which one

was it? It's called more girls who rock the world. Oh, yeah, I

saw that. Yeah, yeah. So she's very excited. We're very it was

my first book that I was a research assistant for. Oh,

cool, yeah, that looked pretty excited about it. Too nice.

Yeah, there was a reception, and they had all the books on

display with little stickers on them. Oh, finalist, yeah. And I

looked through that one, and I thought that, oh, yeah, I'm glad

you shake it. Yeah, it's a good, it's a good. I bought it for my

niece's Yeah, I was thinking about it. I was like, Here you

go. You can go rock the world. Yes, nieces, my only nieces in

the world. So with your book, you.

You touched on many thematic issues, and I am interested in

what themes you were trying to put across with it, and what

sorts of connection you have with those themes. Basically,

well, I think, honestly, when I started, I wasn't thinking about

the theme at all. I just had thought about these characters

for years and wanted to write a story, and was just going and

partway through my mentor, sage that I was working with, which I

can tell you more about in a little bit, she was like, You

need to think about the theme of your book. And that was a really

like, I feel like it threw me into a whole existential crisis.

I was like, I don't know. I don't know what I'm trying to

say. What's the point of any of this? And oh, no,

I think overall, the theme is finding yourself learning to be

yourself in a world that doesn't want you to be, that wants you

to be a certain way, and

just about the connections you make with people. One thing I

like about young adult literature is how you can really

see yourself like the as I was growing up and reading books,

the ones that I connected with the best were ones where I felt

like they were talking about my experience. So I wanted to try

to create that for other people. I also I'm not super into

romance in books, but I really love young adult books,

especially where they talk about friendships and connections

among girlfriends. And so I really wanted to focus on the

friends and like, just the changing relationships. Yeah,

yeah. I saw that a lot. I finished it. I got sick this

week, and I was like, Well, I can finish Shelley's book now,

perfect.

But, yeah, it was

I always forget, because I don't usually read. Why I forget how

like

that feels, and how you can really do something that you

can't do with adult books where it's just you just follow every

day, like you don't see that in adult books very often. You see

in ya a lot, where, like, every day matters so much. When you're

a teenager, I know it's like the first time you're having all

these feelings and everything is like, so new. And I feel like in

writing, it's a little bit freeing, because you can be

like, extra dramatic, because you're like, it is. It feels so

dramatic when you're in it, it's the first time you're having all

these feelings, and everything's changing. So that was kind of a

fun thing about writing. And I think

one thing that I kind of got thematically from it, which I

think you were kind of trying to do on purpose, was just the idea

of being vulnerable and learning to be vulnerable even though

you're Yeah, you don't think you're what other people want

you to be, yeah. And

I mean, writing is a very vulnerable process, for sure,

but the process of publishing is very cutthroat. And I'm just

curious as to how you negotiated that whole situation where

you're self publishing, doing it all by yourself, and then

marketing it by yourself, and at the same time, time trying to be

vulnerable. Like, How'd that work out? It that is really, was

really a hard thing about it. Like, I feel like I went in

thinking I would self publish, and not even really thinking

about it in terms of business, like thinking about it like I

have wanted to do this. This is something I want to do, a goal I

want to reach in my life. And the only way to do it is to just

do it. And I just, I knew it was going to feel really vulnerable,

but I just had to do it. And I feel like I was kind of like,

well, probably no one will read it anyway. So that's something I

feel like. We felt a little safer about self publishing. And

it's just, it's hard, like, I feel like, as a self published

book, people think like, oh, you couldn't get anyone to publish

it. And it's like, I didn't even really try. And maybe part of it

was insecurity or just wanting, I don't know, I think I just, I

studied art in school, and I feel like so much of how I grew

up with, like, this mindset of, like, what matters is the work

and the art, and like, not making money. And so I came into

this being like, I just want to make a piece of art that I can

stand behind. And

I don't know I just had feel like I had to do it. And so now

I'm trying to promote it, and it is really hard, because it does

feel really vulnerable. And do you see a lot of models for

other like literary fictional ya on the self publishing market?

Because I that's not a world we deal with romance and sci fi and

that genre fiction quite a.

Lot, but I haven't seen much by the way of marketing ya in the

self publishing space. I don't see him a lot of it, and so I

know that is that does make me feel kind of like a little bit

alone out here. But then I also feel like what I'm familiar with

is like craft sales and zine fests, where it is something

that you made and you're selling it yourself, and in that way, it

felt really comfortable to me. Let's

see. Well, I had a question that goes back, harkens back to the

promotional aspect, oh, yeah, thing. So I know a lot of

writers have trouble sort of promoting themselves. Would you

say you've struggled with that? Yeah, for sure, I think

getting being named a finalist for the Oregon book award really

changed that for me. Like, good, okay, I even I wasn't really

seriously thinking about writing another book until then, and

then I was like, oh, maybe this isn't, like, a ridiculous, yeah,

daydream, right? Maybe someone does think it's good. And I

don't know, a few people have told me, like, this is something

that people need to see. And I hadn't even thought about it

that way. I'd totally been thinking about it as, like, this

thing I need to do, right, right? Yeah, so I do. I

definitely struggle with self promotion. Yeah, you're in good

company working with authors all day. Who are

anybody that I wrote a book? I'm like, No, you have to literally

my job.

I feel like I didn't even tell anyone I was working on it until

I was almost done. Oh, wow. And I mean, I would tell people if

we were hanging out, just one on one, but I didn't post anything

on social media. And, yeah, it was almost done, okay? And yeah,

I feel like so many people were like, what? Yeah, this come from

this, has been this, like, secret burning desire for years,

yeah, yeah. And now I'm finally, I don't know, I think also with

the vulnerability, you just, you go through it so many times, and

at the end, it's just like, Well, what else can I do with

this besides, like, I've seen it so many times. I'm sick of it,

right? Right? I You kind of become a little bit detached.

I don't know, I went to like I said, I studied art in college,

and we would always be so heartbroken during our

critiques. And I remember the

advisor, Keiko Hara once was like, You're all beautiful

people. You need to understand we're not talking about you.

We're talking about the work and, like, I thought about that

a lot, yes, yeah, it's not about personal critiques. It's about

this work that is separate from me, right, right?

Well, discussing zines as well, because you have a lot of

experience there, that's a big part of your book. So the main

character, Hannah, finds a it's a magazine. What's the name of

the magazine? Tiny specks in space, but the one that she Oh,

maximum rock and roll, yeah, it was that real, yeah, yeah. Okay,

sorry, yeah. It actually, they just announced that they're

gonna stop printing recently. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But on the

back, she sees the ad for the zine, tiny specks in space, and

she becomes pen pals with the Creator, Corey. Corey.

And so I was curious, because it seemed like you have a lot of

knowledge, and now I find that you do so like, what's your

experience in with zine fests and their connection to craft

and indie? Well, I mean, my how I came to be involved in zines,

actually, was through an added maximum rock and roll.

My stepsister slash, BFF, Katie, we were growing up, I lived in

Salem, and she lived outside of Salem, very small town, and we

just felt like there was no one who understood us. We wanted to

connect with people. So when I was 14, she was 16, we placed an

ad for pen pal in maximum rock and roll, and like in the book,

it is just like ads for bandmates, for zines, ads for

pen pals are all in the back. And we got a ton of responses, I

think because we were women or girls, and so like, other girls

were like, yeah, and then guys were like, Yeah.

Then unplugged impression

she was 16 and I was 14. We put an ad for pen pals, and our ad

was basically, like,

it started with, we suck, but you want to write to us anyway.

It was like, we're two bored dorks. And so we got tons of

responses, and

I think, yeah, like it was because we were two girls, so

people could get two pen pals, girls could connect with other

girls, nasty guys. I mean, something, they weren't all

nasty guys could connect with girl. Wasn't like Craigslist

necessarily, maybe a letter or two, but it was just paper

letters we could throw away.

And.

And a few people sent me zines, and I had heard of zines, but

I'd never actually like read one or seen one. And

so I started reading them and trading them, and eventually I

started one because I didn't feel like I like had something

important to say, I honestly, I just wanted something to be able

to trade, because a lot of them, they were like $1 a trade, or

some were just like stamps or dollar stamps or trade. And

that's why I started making a zine so.

So the first ZINE Fest I went to was in, I think, 2000 or 2001

was the first Portland zine symposium, and so that was where

I started, like meeting. That was I that summer I met two

women who I met through a zinester. We weren't even pen

pals, but they made zines. And that was the first time I'd been

around, like, in person, people who other people had made zines,

and it was just like, such a refreshing feeling like this

feeling of like, Finally, like, I found my people, and I've just

always loved the atmosphere at zine symposiums and zine

festivals. I've gone to a few I've been to the Philly ZINE

Fest a few times because one of the people that responded to our

original pen pal ad, who did zines. We're still in touch. Oh,

wow, yeah. So and visited, and we went to the Philly ZINE Fest.

And then there's one in Olympia that's really cool. And then

Portland has been going for a really long time. Okay, are you

still active in them? Or some here and there? Like, I there I

went probably seven years without making a zine, but then

I did a new one this year, partially because I feel like

people had a lot of questions about my process of writing a

book, and so I wrote about that, and just in general, life stuff,

it's always been a personal zine like, I think of it as just like

a little way that you can make a little magazine that's all about

whatever you want, and it's kind of an alternative to mainstream

magazines. And I feel like a lot of my feminism was also shaped

through zines like learning about body positivity riot girl,

and like just being able to take up space and say what you want

and like what they're saying in these beauty magazines is

bullshit, and we can be however we want. That's kind of what I

wanted to impart with the book. I really got that too good.

Yeah.

So in terms of collaboration in creating the book, did you have

an editor, a designer like who, who worked with you on this? So

I had a mentor. Her name is Sage Adderley Knox, and she is

someone that I met through zines, and she

full time helps authors and has a small press. And what's the

name of her breast sweet candy, and she does things like blog

tours with authors and promotional help. And just like,

does this mentorship program, and it's six months long, and I

started seeing she would like post about other people that had

done it. And I was just like,

why isn't that me? And so then I was like, Well, I mean, it could

be and so I definitely feel like it was kind of luxury or a

privilege to be able to do that. Then I was like, Well, you know,

people save up and they do, like a big trip to Europe as like

their big life goal. And I was like, this is something I really

want to do. It's important to me, so I'm going to invest time

and money in it. So we did this mentorship, and I'd started

writing the book for National Novel Writing Month a few years

ago, but it didn't it didn't have a conclusion. It was just

like, I don't know if I got to something that was hard, I'd

just skip it and go onto another scene. It wasn't like a whole

manuscript, for sure. So she was like, that's the first thing.

She gave me assignments. And I respond really well to

assignments. And we did weekly check ins, because she lives in

Olympia, but we were able to do it over the phone. That was

fine. So I

basically, first she's like, You need to write a whole

manuscript. Just start and like, go. So I did that. She was like,

reading behind me in the Google Doc, leaving notes nice. I think

that Google Docs is, like, such an underrated way to edit and

write. Just that's my opinion. And I think that's something

that self publishing people kind of have untraditional because we

use Microsoft Word so awful anyway.

Yeah, I like I thought it worked really well. And then

she had a beta reader who I don't

she had a beta reader who I don't even know. Who that person

is, still.

Uh, who read it and gave notes? And so then I did like an edit

based on that, and then I gave it to six of my friends to beta

read, then took notes on that. And that was Google Docs too, so

they could do comments and

like highlight or whatever. And I really liked it. Also, while I

was working with sage, I was a part where I was like, Is this

stupid? Does this sound horrible? I could just, like,

write her a little note, and then she would reply and be

like, No, it's

good. She's very calming and reassuring. Well, with a name

like sage, you kind of have to be, yeah, definitely.

And so I never had, like, an editor. Beyond that, I told my

friends, I was like, if you see any grammar stuff, tell me, but

mostly I want content feedback. And then after I had done all

the edits based on that, I like, did a really close read for

grammar, but I feel like I'm pretty good at grammar, so I

wasn't as nervous about that, and but I'm I know there are

definitely typos in the final copy, but there always are,

yeah, definitely. And then her husband, Bradley actually laid

out the pages for me and laid out the cover. Oh, yeah, so you

didn't just kind of throw it into a program and have it, do

it for you. No, I, I was, at that point, I was, I kind of was

a little bit crushed for time, because I really wanted it to be

done in time for the Portland scene symposium, which is always

in the summer. And I

one point, I was like, Okay, I need to, like, set a date for my

release party. And so then I was like, All right, I've got this

deadline. And I was, like, kind of burned out on it. Like I was

just went straight from December through June, was the mentorship

with sage, and then July 21 was when I scheduled the party. And

so, like, in June, I was like, I could, like, buy the software,

try to figure it out on my own, just, like, drive myself crazy.

And I was like, No, I'm just gonna pay him and he can do it.

And smart choice, yeah, so much harder than you think it's gonna

be usually, yeah, that's what I figured. But yeah, so he did

that, and he laid out the cover. I took the picture, and then he

did like, all the layout of the like, the bio and the blurb and

stuff on the back and,

yeah,

so it's mostly, mostly in print, or do you print a lot of copies?

I bought 100

and so how Ingram Spark works. That's what, what I published it

through. They distribute through Amazon, Barnes and Noble and

like, libraries can buy through them, and independent bookstores

can buy through them. So I get a report from them every month

that tells me how many have been ordered through them. And then

they just, like, put money in my bank account. I mean, not like a

ton, but it just appears I was gonna ask, actually, why you

chose Ingram Spark rather than, like, create space or something

like that? It was mostly because I was thinking that because

isn't create space the Amazon product, yes, it is. So I wanted

it to be able to be in other stores. And sage had worked with

ingramspark and kind of recommended them. And it was,

I've it was pretty easy, yeah. I mean, well, I say this not

actually making the files that we uploaded, right, right? Like,

they do a thing where, if you towards the end of the month,

they're like, if you upload your book by the 30th, you will waive

the upload fee, which is like $50 so June 30,

Bradley and I were just like, sending these frantic emails

back and forth all night. And just like I was uploading it,

and I was like, it's not working, it gave me an error

message, uh huh. And just finally, it like, worked, and we

just made it barely under the deadline, yeah. And then it was,

I mean, within a few days, it was available for pre order on

Amazon, Barnes, noble, yeah, yeah. And they do the ebook and

paper book right? And then, like, the library bought some

through them,

yeah? So you can say to the bookstores, like, Oh yeah, it's

on in ground, right? And then they know what that means, yes,

yeah, right, right. Okay, yeah. So that's why cool. So yeah,

have you seen like, a boost in sales since you got nominated?

Definitely. Yeah, I have. I was like, I can't wait for my

January and February report. And I've been going to, like,

libraries and bookstores, and I don't really, I think mostly

it's through Amazon. Like, the report I get just tells me how

many and I'm sure there's some way I could go in and find out

where they go to but I have not yet. I think I feel like I keep

telling people like it's on the shelf at Broadway books, for

example, and I'm like, go, go buy it at Broadway books, and

then they buy it through Amazon.

That's the way of the world. I know I did buy the ebook. Sorry,

it's.

Yeah, audible though, oh yeah. I'm working on it, yeah,

yeah. And part of the thing with the Book Award is they have all

the finalists donate 25 copies. Yes, I had to do that. Oh yeah.

I understand Yeah. At first I was like, oh, but, but it's

still probably a little more of a hardship for you.

I mean, it's not that bad, but still it is like, well, it's 25

copies. I'm not selling, but,

so those are going to rural libraries around the state,

which I'm excited about. Yeah, for sure, yeah, especially with

a book, like, with a theme like yours too. That's, I mean,

right? Would assume, for kids growing up in like, really rural

towns, yeah, that could be like a lifesaver. So that would be

great.

Somebody's gonna pick it up and be like, this is for me, yeah,

yeah. That's the dream. I feel like, yeah.

So, so you were talking earlier about how great it was when you

found a good book as a teenager that really spoke to you. So

what were some of those books? Well, the main one I think about

with that story is kind of odd. It's Poppy Z bright. Do you know

her? Well, you don't know well, she wrote horror novels in the

90s,

and she's written other stuff since then. That's less horror,

mostly about gay men. But I just remember there was this one

scene in one of the books,

lost souls. It's about vampires and the it's like a teenage boy

who's just like, feeling so out of place and like no one

understands him. And just, I just remember reading it and

being like, oh my god, this is this book really knows what I'm

going through, and I really like, that's a lot of what I'm

drawn to. And a lot of books just that feeling of like

feelings of isolation that you have when you're a teenager, and

just the extreme feelings. So, yeah, I mean, I feel like a lot

of there's a lot of books I read also as a teenager, like Annie

on my mind, by Nancy garden, which I mentioned in the book,

that was a big inspiration. It's a lesbian YA novel, and it takes

place like in the 80s, I think,

yeah, um, another, well, this isn't exactly right, like a

thematic inspiration, but I do want to mention that my grandpa

self published a book, probably, yeah, like, a long time ago,

like, maybe 15 years ago. And it's kind of funny. It's a funny

book. It's about a human brain transplant. Wow, but I know, but

I just that was very inspirational. I was like, Well,

he did, I can do it like, so that's kind of a lot of myself

self publishing inspiration, yeah, another family tradition.

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. He actually asked me I had given

them a self portrait I'd drawn as, like, a Christmas present.

And he was like, you know, that picture that you drew would be

great for this book I'm working on, and is it okay if I use it?

And I was like, Yeah, sure, whatever. And I didn't, I didn't

even think to be like, well, what's the book about? And then

it's like, about this uncle who puts brain into the body of his

niece and kind of takes over her life,

I know. And then I was like, Oh, my pictures.

It's like creepy Freaky Friday. Yeah, it is totally,

yeah.

Well, that's, that's an interesting way to be inspired.

But I get it. I get it. We're both big horror fans, so, yeah,

yeah. Do you have

anything else? What else? Oh, I was gonna ask what your

influences are. Oh, that was, Oh, is that? Oh, sorry. Oh, I'm

sorry. No, no, that's okay. I also feel like, I mean, you

mentioned that I am in this young adult book club. Yes, we

read a lot of books that are really bad, really and I feel

like that, yeah, inspires me.

I feel like for so long in the book club, I've been like, I

can't believe this got published. I could do better

than this. And it's like, yeah. I was like, Well, I don't know.

I keep saying I could do better than this, but yeah, okay, time

to prove it right, right? And you did.

Yeah, definitely. I do have another question. Actually, I

don't think you've asked the surgery. So you said, Are you?

Did you say you're working on a book right now? I thinking about

it. Yeah, I've just barely started. Okay, can you tell us

what that's about? Well, it's another ya about a fat, queer

teenager. I think there's definitely I learned a lot in

the first book, and there's.

Things that I want to do differently. Like, I feel like

the sexuality in the first book is kind of not very explicit,

like, exactly how she identifies. And partially, I

felt like, when you're teenager, you don't always know, and

you're like, Yeah, I like girls, but I don't know. I don't know

what that means exactly, and I wanted one thing that I really

like in books that I read are when someone is like, explicitly

bisexual, because you don't see that that often, right, right?

So that's definitely something I want to include.

I don't I feel like I've mostly been thinking about how to make

that character different than Hannah from the first book,

like Hannah was very into math and had just like, very few

crushes. The new character is definitely more romantic and

lots of crushes, which is something I actually identify

with more yeah

and just like, yeah, boys and girls and sort of, I think it's,

I'm being much more conscious about the theme going in, yeah,

also having written a book and realizing three quarters of the

way through it was supposed to have a theme, right?

Yeah. One thing that I really liked about Hannah is that she

did have that feeling of alienation, but like, she had so

many friends, and then, like, there was, of course, the part

at the end where they kind of screwed her over, but they

didn't really screw her over, like it wasn't one of those

disaster books where everybody turns their back on the person.

Yeah, so I kind of like that that was more realistic. And

yeah, you weren't, I'm sometimes I feel like people are trying to

prove, like, you can't trust anybody. Oh, yeah. So I

definitely wanted it to be about friendship and about

like, kind of how you can, even if you have a lot of people

around you and people who care about you, you can still feel

really alone. That was something I thought about with her,

because she does have a lot of friends, but still feels out of

place. Super relatable. Yeah,

I had another question. Okay, so with the new book, do you think

you might try to submit it to agents like go the more

traditional route? I have thought about it like, I think

part of it also with the first book was I was like, Well, I

have nothing like no examples of my work other than this I know,

like no clout behind my name. And that was part of what I

learned about with pricing my ebook too, is I was thinking

like, yeah, I should price it around the same price as the

print book. Yeah, right. Sage was like, You have no reviews,

no one knows who you are, right, right? People aren't gonna pay

that much. And so now I feel like, well, I do. I can be like,

Whoa. This is my second novel. I was an Oregon Book Award

finalist, right? Yeah, so I do think that there's more things

that people might want to listen to or care about it, yeah, sure.

Okay, cool. I think that's kind of a big notch in your

belt.

No,

I guess in the oak tree lipstick, yeah, I like it well.

And isn't your book. I mean, all the other ones in your category,

you're like, are they sci fi, right? And you're like, fantasy,

yeah, right, right. So that's pretty amazing, yeah, it is. I

know it's kind of amazing, because one's like, a New York

Times bestseller, yeah, right? And they're all like,

traditionally published, yeah? And I'm like, Yeah, I'm right

there with Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's amazing, yeah,

definitely. Sorry. Are you nervous about the award

ceremony? I little, I've never been. Have you guys been before

I have been. I think I went, like, two years ago. It's pretty

chill. I mean, it's, you know, it's Portland, but, yeah, people

are excited about it, but it's definitely, I don't know I like,

I mean, I wouldn't get super nervous. But then again, I am

not in contention for an award. So what am I talking Errol

Strait is gonna be I know. That's right. She's hosting,

yeah, she's the host. That's right, yeah, I know. I'm kind of

bummed, because last year, I mean, Cheryl Strayed is awesome,

yeah, but last year, Renee Watson was the host, and she's

like, a Portland ya, author. Oh, okay, I know, amazing, but I

wasn't ready. Then, right, right. Oh, well, yeah, yeah, I'm

excited. I think it'll be really Yeah, it's fun. It's It is fun.

It's a cool event. We'll definitely be there. Awesome.

I'm excited. Yeah, do you have any more questions, Karen,

none that I can think of. I don't think so. Are there any

questions we haven't asked that you would like to answer? Well,

why don't you just do our work for us?

Well, I had a question for you. Oh, how about you? Sure one

thing I wonder, because I feel like, since writing a novel,

yep, now that I'm a novelist, right? A lot of people are like.

Oh, well, I always thought I could write a novel. I always

wanted to write a novel. And I know you two work in publishing,

right? Do you have secret desires to write novels or

anything? I do not. I never have wanted to write a book. I just

know I don't, which is why I'm, yeah, probably not an author. So

Emily, what about you? I mean, if you don't, if you don't feel

that way, then why make yourself have that terrible dream that

will make you feel inferior for the rest of your life? Exactly,

yes,

no. I mean, yeah, I realized, and this isn't like self

deprecating blah, blah, blah or anything, but I realized that I

am not really a story person. I just kind of like I would when I

was a kid, you know, the every writer is like, So and so was a

born storyteller ever since they were a little kid. Like, every

bio you read of an author says that. And for me, I'm like,

Well, I was good at scene setting. Like, it's kind of

like, this is this was there, and this person was there and

this other person was there, and then I would be like, I

don't know what comes next, so I know that's something that can

be learned. And at some point, I'm trying to write a very

formulaic thriller book right now, just to kind of, I figured

if I followed an outline, because I am kind of a rule

follower person and need assignments as well that, you

know, lots of people do it, so might as well give it a shot.

But yeah, I also kind of like bringing things out of other

people more. Oh, yeah. So that's why I'm kind of on this side of

it, yeah, as well. Is because I just like seeing other people

kind of, like, bring those things out of themselves, yeah?

But yeah, I can sit there and be like, you have this and you have

that, what's gonna happen? Yeah?

I feel like that's the hardest thing for me, is I'm not I feel

like I'm not that strong at the plot part, and that is something

I definitely have a much stronger sense of the

characters. Like, even, I think back to when I was little and I

played with Barbies, I was, like, so into picking out their

outfits and, like, figuring out their relationships to each

other. And then I'd be like, All right, I'm done like, I think

that's probably a normal thing for like, people who are into

like literature, like, not genre fiction, not plot driven stuff.

Because I remember I went to like, a summer writing school

thing, and they were like, We don't want you reading genre

fiction, and we want you to and they had us write these, like

poetry and mood pieces and all of these things that didn't

really go anywhere. So I just never learned to do plots. So

every time I tried to write a book, I'd be like, now they're

baking cookies,

and this guy is sad.

It is hard. Well, do you know that save the cat book? Yeah,

yeah, I don't know what you don't know. No, tell me. Bree

was talking about it in the episode you weren't here.

Well, it's, it's like, based on a screenwriting book, but

there's a newer, I don't know how new version that's like,

about novels. Save the cat writes a novel, and they're the

author, like, sets out these beats you're supposed to hit,

like, there's like 15 and there's like three acts, and

first you do this, and then you do this, and she's like, every

novel like A Christmas Carol and Wuthering Heights. They all have

all these beats. And I was kind of going, I was looking at it,

and like, trying to figure out how my my first book fit into

it, and I feel like I do kind of ramble and wander, and it's a,

it's a YA Literary book. So like, those are more wandering,

yeah, despite their nature, yeah, good. Perfect. That we

had. We've had self published genre fiction. People come in

here and they're very like, formula is everything. If you

don't hit these beats, you're right, readers are gonna be mad

at you. Oh, yeah, yeah. I listened to the one, I think,

with pre Brianne. She was talking about, like, self

publishing is you make a lot of money with genre but not with

literary fiction. And I was like, huh

about right to me,

but yeah, I have ideas sometimes about writing. I'm really into

cozy mysteries. Rosemary.

My mom's really into, oh yeah, my grandma was too. It was thing

that everybody passed the books around. Yeah, I like, I like

them a lot, but I do feel like I'm not the target audience. And

it's mostly like the main characters are much older than

me and sometimes conservative. Well, I hear that that's kind of

changing in the.

Yeah, there's, there's younger the big thing right now is

witches. Oh, yeah. But young witches, yeah, so I do. There's

a series I like by Juliet Blackwell about a young witch,

but she's, she is very into vintage fashion, wow. And she

doesn't, I feel like a lot of times in cozy novels, they're

very technology averse, like

even that that which she's a witch, so her magic powers mess

up her cell phone, so she just can't have one. Yeah, it is. But

I've, I've had ideas about writing a cozy novel that's like

about young queers. No, I mean, that I think there's a market

for that, for sure, yeah? So that's actually what I was

thinking would be my next project. But then my this other

young adult novel seemed more pressing, so I don't know, one

day maybe, well, I mean, like, if you have another job, you

might as well do your art, you know, yeah, have your have your

writing be your art, yeah, your job, yeah, I know. And there's

that, did you see that article that's been people have been

sharing like, why is there such a pressure to make your hobby a

side hustle? And

that sounds like every article these days, yeah, it's true. But

I don't know. I feel very seen right now.

I know it is like, like, yeah, if you can do something like,

well, like, my mom made me as these special pot holders that

are bowl shaped. They're really good if you microwave a bowl,

yeah, and I have one at work, and everyone loves it, and

they're like, your mom should sell those? And I've told her

that, and she's like, she's like, Yeah, I don't really have

time.

She's like, I'm fine. I don't Yeah. And I think also with

crafts, especially, you can't, it's so hard to make an amount

of money that carries your expenses that, like, makes it

worth you don't, like, do it all day long and, like, ruin your

hands. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Well, what do you what are you reading right now? Oh, well,

right now I am, well, I mostly, to be honest, listen to

audiobooks, same I read, yeah. I mean, I read like, I know

audiobook so much I I feel kind of odd saying that, since my

book is not available in audiobook. And some people have

told me, like, well, when you do an audiobook, I'll listen to it.

And I'm like,

I am right now I'm listening to Phoebe Robinson's second book.

Everything's trash, but that's okay.

It's really good. It's very funny, little bit political, but

in a way that you don't feel like she's calling you out,

because it's all just so funny. That's okay. Yeah, I like her a

lot. Yeah, yeah. What about you? Oh, Corrine,

well, I am still reading the road to Jonestown, which I have

been reading for approximately four months now. The book is 450

pages long. I also moved recently. Oh yeah, I know I keep

using that as an excuse, but it is a massive undertaking anyway,

but I am almost close like I think our next podcast, I'll be

finished with it and I'll be on to something else. So I'll stop

talking about it.

Friday, 50 pages ago, I can fucking Oh, that's not your

house warming party is over. You have no more excuses. I have no

more No more excuses. I listened to a lot of audio books while I

was painting our house. Did you

can do libro FM because you don't have to have a

subscription. Perfect. Okay, oh, they should be paying me.

So this, well, I mean, yeah, actually, I do. It

has been like three episodes. So I quit audible, because I used

to listen to Audible a lot, libro, FM, you can do the

subscription like the credit system, or you can do things a

la carte, and it goes to the local bookstore of your choice.

I think Broadway books is on there. I feel like I've seen

them share ads for it. Yeah, I switched to that, and it made me

really happy. And so I listened to bad blood. About a nonfiction

book about Theranos.

It was a big scam, Silicon Valley scam,

where this woman named Elizabeth Holmes

thought she could, like, have this

health device that would take a tiny drop of blood, and you'd be

able to run all these tests on it, and none of the engineers

could make it work. And she just started lying to investors, and,

like, getting all of this money. And then the company culture was

really paranoid and weird, and everyone was like, miserable,

and then it all fell

apart, which is.

One of my favorite like,

and then everything went wrong

when no one, when it's not the road to Jonestown, because I

didn't, I don't relish that, yeah? No, I do relish, you know,

Silicon Valley company falling apart, yeah, and especially when

Henry Kissinger loses an enormous investment. Yeah, same,

same.

It's really, it's like she's a monster, but there's something

so satisfying about like him being like, whoa, who's my

buddy, and her, like, there was one part where she sent this

really, really bitchy email to fucking James Mattis, like, Mad

Dog Mattis. And it was like, everyone's

like, she doesn't give a fuck because she's a psychopath. Wow,

yeah,

it's, uh, it sounds like a good book. I actually really want to

read that one. Yeah, yeah. It's good to Libra with them. Yeah.

It's a good audio books. Yeah. Okay. Okay, is it read by the

author? No, okay. John cario. Cario, Carrie Roo, sorry, that's

okay. He's very he's a bit smug. I think he's very proud of

himself for revising the story. I would be too honestly,

yeah, but it's fine.

All right. Is there anything else you'd like to say, Shelley,

well, do you think people should know my website? Yes,

definitely.

Okay, it's www, dot

Shelley pearsonwrights.com,

you can also follow me on Instagram, working on my

Instagram presence that's perfect for you. Oh, good.

Crafts and art. Yeah, I know I'm sometimes I worry I'm posting

too many crafts and people are gonna be like, What am I

following? But that is at Shelley Pearson rights, yeah,

and

crafts

and Z zines, yeah, exactly.

Well, you can find us at www, nice.hybridpubscout.com

we're on Twitter at hybrid pub scout. On Facebook at hybrid pub

scout. We're on SoundCloud, Apple podcast. Please go rate

and review us. We have eight rates and three reviews so far.

Just go give us some stars, please. And then we're on a

bunch of other like, you know, whoever picks up the RSS, yes,

tune in player. FN, yeah, you name it. We're not on Spotify,

though. We should probably do that, not on Instagram, not yet.

Yeah, I guess you're more an audio medium. Corinne wanted us

to scale up. I would like us to do that, but that will fall to

me, which is fair, because Emily does like 98% of the work, quite

honestly. So, yeah, I don't know that's gonna be an investment,

but I might be worth it. I don't know. We'll see. I don't want

Corinne to commit to anything that she's going to overthink.

That's like everything.

Corin's a Virgo. I just kind of throw things out. I'm like,

Okay, I'm done. Here you go.

Are you? You're Aquarius? Yeah. Me too, yeah, when was your

birthday? February, 11.

Happy birthday.

Most likely not to be caught for murder.

Anyway. Thank you for listening. And are we we're doing? Thanks

for giving a rip about books, still, right? All right. Are we

doing clean your room and read books? Oh, sure.

Why not both you told me, thanks

for cleaning your room about books. You

you.