James P. McGee is a highly successful sheepdog handler from Northern Ireland who has won the ISDS International Supreme Championship and the ISDS World Championship.

Want to learn from James about training sheepdogs? Check out his Patreon page. His training program is unique in that he shows all the training, from successful to frustrating, and how to work through it all.

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James P. McGee is a highly successful sheepdog handler from Northern Ireland who has won the ISDS International Supreme Championship and the ISDS World Championship.

Want to learn from James about training sheepdogs? Check out his Patreon page at https://www.patreon.com/jamespmcgee. His training program is unique in that he shows all the training, from successful to frustrating, and how to work through it all.

THE KATHY KEATS SHOW

Welcome to the show. I've got a great interview for you today. I actually did this interview a few months ago with James McGee from Ireland, who's one of the top sheepdog men in the world, and a wonderful discussion about mindset and training sheepdogs and all the things that go with becoming a top competitor and the setbacks that you face. And what's really interesting to keep in mind is when we did this interview, he was still running his young year old dog, Becca, in the nurseries. And since then, she's come on to such a degree that she made it into the double lift finals of the ISDS World Trial, which is an incredible feat for such a young dog. So keep that in mind when he's talking about how young the dog is at the time of the interview and how a few short months later, this dog just made incredible strides, so much to do with the way he thinks about training. So I know you're excited to hear what he has to say. Let's get started.

Hey, James. So how's your day today?

Yeah. Pretty good. We had a trial today, at the farm here, so it went quite well. The weather was nice. We had we had a nice day. That was the last of our nursery heats today. We have our final next week, so we get Becca was first. Moss, I think, was 6th or 7th.

We had a good day.

Very good. So, Becca's running well for you. She's just been an amazing little dog for you.

Yeah. Definitely. Definitely so. She just seems to get it right most of the time. She's run-in 10 or 11 nursery trials now, and she's had 10 placements. 2 firsts, 5 seconds, 3 thirds, so she's been quite consistent, in fairness.

Yeah. Yeah. We were we were very lucky also to to come across over, I Like, maybe around them on the 1st trial that maybe a little over 7 months or so, again, in the nurse phase and that. It was kinda similar to what Becca's at the moment, just, you know, that that type of dog that she can, feel comfortable around. And More often than not, he got it right rather than wrong. And just, like, when he had that bond with the sheep, generally, kinda was able to put up Reasonably good, bronze. So we're we're definitely lucky that they came along. Yeah.

No doubt.

So you really like training, obviously, the young dogs, but you also have a real way with young dogs where you can bring out the best of them. And I always am fascinated by this conversation because so many people are, you know, kind of against bringing young dogs on fast, and you obviously are able to do it and do it well. And what do you think is kind of the difference between those 2 philosophies?

Like, the big thing maybe that a lot of people don't do, And not as, you know, like, that each dog is unique, the same as each person as unique. Like, we all have or the majority of us you know, siblings, brothers and sisters, whatever. Like, I mean, almost the exact same upbringings if you like, but There's very seldom that you get 2 family members that are the same, you know, that follow the same path in life if you like, you know, or same, You know, same attitude, same personalities, and stuff like that. So you have to treat the dogs as being the same, like, you know, so necessarily will work for 1, you know, may not work for the next one. So you have to be very careful, and treat Treat each one as an individual. You know, can assess someone, you know, how much pressure, if you like, they can take and things like that. Just, you know, you you gotta be careful with it and sensible. That's something probably that I that I really enjoy doing is training young dogs and running young dogs.

I just there's, they're just a little bit of a buzz about it. You know? It's such maybe my I was like a junkie. If you like getting our facts, I just that that's my facts from young dogs. Like, I just get a a kick out of it. Now it's just, you know, treating each one as being individual, like, you know, applying a little blood pressure and see if the dog can take it or not take it. You know? Like, I've often tried to train dogs quite young, you know, and I've had to say no, I just need to wait. They're not ready yet, if you know what I mean.

But I'm a great believer, if you don't try, you don't get. You know, if you don't ask the question, you're definitely not gonna get the answer.

So what do you look for in the dogs? When a lot of people say, well, the dog can't take that right now. Like, specifically, what do you see them doing when you say, I gotta back off this dog?

Again, each one will show something, a bit slightly different telltale signs. I feel like, You know, maybe some of the will, you know, go away down in the gears, you know, get really slow. You know, You can almost see that the calls turning on their head. They feel like, you know, is this okay? Shit. I don't wanna do this. This is pressure, you know, that type of thing. So that's one thing. Another thing is maybe, you know, some dogs will start to get wide.

You know, they're just you know, they're they're kinda blowing you off type of thing. You'll get some older dogs. Maybe they'll start to, you know, like, yawn, if you like, when you're working them. If you see them repeatedly opening their mouth and yawn on them, maybe start, you know, nipping the ground at the grass or maybe start eating some of the the sheep's feces and that type of thing. You know, that's kind of a a sign that they're just not comfortable. Generally, if you're working a dog, you know, and the dog is gonna give an almost full focus to the sheep, know that it's, you know, concentrating on the sheep. He give it a, you know, a flank either way, you know, that it that it takes it relatively quickly and it's not, you know, maybe going one way, and then, oh, shit, it went the wrong way and goes the other way. You know, that's telltale saying that there's too much pressure for the dog and that's overthinking the situation, if you like.

To me, you know, that that's the things that I kinda watch out for, but but, again, each one is different and will have slightly different, you know, telltale signs that they're just not comfortable.

One of the things I find people have trouble finding the balance with is one day, they might be doing that and people back off, but then they back off too much. And, you know, then the next day, if you were to go out and maybe try that again, but maybe not quite as much, you'd be able to kinda push through that, you know, little moment that they're having. And some people push too hard, and then some people back off too far in the other direction and almost let the dog start dictating things. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Those. The those. Yeah. Yeah. Like, probably the most important thing in training dogs is consistency. Consistency is key. You know? Like, should that be with an older dog or a young dog, It it doesn't matter, you know.

But, No. Again, said there, that, you know, if you don't ask the question, you don't get the answer. But, like, when you're working with dogs and young dogs and that, you know, you'll only discover how much pressure you can apply by maybe applying a little bit too much. If you see, you know, some of the things that I'm out there describing on the dog, you know, the the little mannerisms, you know, that they're not comfortable, then, you know, Turn your tone down ever so slightly from, you know, where it was too much for the dog and a little bit of praise, and try from there again. You know? So you have to really watch carefully your dog's body language whenever you are, you know, maybe, like, you know, chastising the dog or, you know, chatted out a little bit just to put that wee bit of pressure on. So if it's a little bit too much for the dog, and you see the reaction, you know, that is maybe getting a little bit wide or, you know, it starts nipping at the grass or yawn and that type of thing. So tone it down a little bit. Give a lot of praise again to the dog.

Encourage it to work quite a bit, and Don't go up to that level of chastising again because you're gonna create the same problem again. So Find out what height you need to set the bar up, and try not to pass it again. Because you you'll be up and down like a YoYo and you won't succeed with it.

What do you think about where you have novices with maybe not necessarily a strong dog. They're not able to communicate to them that, you know, they're kind of leading the show. In fact, when you and I worked together, at one point, you said something to me that really stuck in my head. You said, you're not quite in her world, which I thought was a good descriptor that's kinda stuck in my head a little bit. So, for the novices who are kinda struggling to maybe get the dog to mind them a little bit versus the handlers that are putting too much pressure on. What kind of advice would you give to the novice?

Some people don't like it like it when I when I make the statement here, but I'm gonna make it anyway because, I feel that it's very relevant. But, You know, I say dogs very much, you know, are like children, I feel like, you know, starting out, and there has to be boundaries. You you know, the same with children. You know, you we'll often go out places if you like for something to eat or, you know and you'll see a child that's acting up and, you know, the The parents will be saying, you know, no. You're not getting it. You're not getting it. You know? And after a little while, when the child keeps nagging the parents For A Quiet Life, they give on and the parents give the child whatever they required in the 1st place or were asking for. in the child's mind at that stage.

You know? If I keep nagging here, I'm gonna get what I want. You know? All I have to do is keep nagging.

The temper tantrum works, basically.

Yeah. That's the same with the dogs. You know? If you say no to a dog today for doing something that, you know, displeases you or you're not happy with some training. Well, That has to remain the same for every training session thereafter. You know? You you can't go out today and be very regimental Go and say, you know, I'm gonna make this dog do it right the way I want it done today. So as a consistency that, you know, if you say no, you just have to keep at that dog or judge, whatever the case may be, Until they realized that, no, that means no, you know, and work from there. But so that's Kind of my belief on it, you know, but, very much the same as children. You know? The boundaries have to be set.

So one of the things I think confuses people is when you're working livestock, especially for the newer person, and, you know, people there's this other debate about kind of the implicit obedience versus natural work. Right. Well, we're gonna let that go because they did this other thing well, or we're trying to get them to work naturally. And there's this kind of push and pull between these philosophies of letting them work naturally versus more implicit obedience. So sometimes people say, tell the dog to lie down, and the handler does, and the dog doesn't actually lie down, but maybe it stops. And the trainer will say, that's good enough. Let it go. What's your thoughts on that?

Initially, it was starting the young dogs or or starting to train a dog. Yeah. That's okay. I see that as being fine. But as you progress in your training, you know, it's one thing that I that I can always say to people maybe in clinics and stuff like that. You know? What How is your dog doing what you asked it to do? You know, when you progress further on the training, and I'm talking about a dog that you're There may be think and say of running on a, you know, an office or a nursery trial that it that it's at that level, if you like. So once you progress to that level, you know, that your dog knows its commands, lefts and rights, stop, walk on, you know, that type of thing. Then, what you've asked your dog to do, you need to follow-up and insist that the dog does what you've asked it to do.

So, again, it's that level of consistency that every time that you've asked the dog to do something, that you follow it up if it hasn't And make her do it. Because, say, for instance, she you know, you you do it 10 times if you like, and, say, Seven times, you followed up, up to 3 times you let it slide. So if you're creating something on the dog's head or, you know, say, well, I don't really have to be that obedient here. You know? He really wants me to do it. You know? He really get on my case. You know? And that's where your inconsistency comes in when you're trying to run the dog because The dog's thinking, no. It's okay today. I'll get away with it today.

You know? So your dog is not thinking that it has to be, you know, perfect Because your your your daughter that you like to it can be inconsistent some other times. So, I would be very, very regimental in in that regard. Like, I'm not necessarily that hard on the dogs. I I can be hard with my tone, you know, and the muscles and my voice and stuff like that. But, like, I mean, I'm I'm not fuzzy over such with the dogs, you know, but You don't have to be, but they have to realize, you know, that if you if your tone goes up to a certain level, But, you know, you mean buzzed us here. You know, pay attention. Be respectful.

So I wanna change gears for a sec and talk about the other end of the scale when you go to a big event. You've obviously done really well at lots of big events. You've won internationals. You've won worlds. So when you're preparing for a big event and you're trying to go in and be, you know, be really prepared for that kind of event. What do you emphasize when you're trying to prepare for a big event?

2nd outrun was fetched on, and it was good. We went on the the driveway, which was very good, and we got a good turn at the driveway gate, and we were going on the cross drive. Probably about maybe 30, 40 meters, like, from the crossroad gate. In my head, I thought, you know, shit. This is going good here. I could possibly one less. And just probably about 5 seconds later, The sheep cannot get into a position where they stopped. I was a little bit offline.

Just because my concentration had lapsed for that little bit of time. I asked Becca to normally, when I would call her name, she would come very quickly whether she click. If it's at home, in a work situation, if I asked her to come, she would come. She would have mean grabbing them or whatever, you know, to move them. The sheep were in a position that they had stopped, and they were almost kinda just out across from the gate, if you like. So they couldn't actually go through because they were On the panel, if that makes sense. Yep. So when she forward, then she couldn't actually move.

I called her name, And she done what I'd asked her to do. I asked her to come, and she come home, and she crept, and that was the end of her own. So It was a lesson to me to never ever ever, in any trial, get ahead of yourself. So When I'm going to the post, the first thing I concentrate on is the outrun, then the left, then the fetch, then the drive, one element at a time, and I do not get ahead of myself. So that's a bit of advice I would give people. You know? Do not get ahead of yourself. Just concentrate on the job that you're trying to do on a particular task. That was a very harsh lesson to me.

It was hard at the time, but, you know, thankfully, I learned from it.

That's a real, I think, problem. I teach a lot of mental game myself, and, I think that's a really common thing that people have is they they lose focus on the task at hand. Like, they they quit doing the best job of shepherding they can in that moment, and they start thinking about outcomes or, you know, if it's dog agility or whatever sport. And you just have that second where you you know? And all of a sudden, everything comes apart.

Well, that's exactly what happened to me. Like, you know, that probably wasn't until 6 months later that I really analyzed what had happened, you know, and remembered the thought that came onto my head. And, you know it just dawned on me, you know, well, that's where you messed up. You know, you you started to think ahead of yourself. You know, you got ahead of the game. You were concentrating on the the element of work that you should have been concentrating on. And as I say, you know, that, Most things in life, maybe, I don't see them as being mistakes, if you like if you can learn from it. So that definitely was a learning curve for me.

It was about their poll to swallow at the time, but I look back on it now has been a very good learning course. Mhmm.

So when you're preparing for those events, do you put any particular focus more on, you know, working your, Turn Back a Bit More, your international shed, or is that just a normal part of your training where it's already kind of incorporated into the training that you do?

Probably would do a little but of everything, you know, and not everything a lot, if that makes sense, you know, but just try and keep it a little bit fresh in the dog's mind, you know, that each aspect, You know, you know, that we've done a little bit on it, and and just keep it fresh in the dog's mind, but there there's one thing that is important for the bigger competitions, probably. It's important for every day, but It's more so important for the bigger competitions, and that is that you and your dog are going to that event as a team, And you haven't fallen out going to that event. You know, a lot of people, I've kinda spoken to over the years, and, you know, that They they maybe get on the team for the international. You know? And I've I've often heard people saying that, and I I Ken, it amazes me, to be honest, but people will say, oh, shit. I hadn't trained, you know, a lot back for that. You know, I have to train a lot back. Now look, I mean, on the space of 2 to 3 weeks type of thing, generally. You know? To me, That doesn't that doesn't make sense.

Like, say, for instance, now with Becca, young Becca, she you. She just turned a year there on the 1st February. But our nursery final is next weekend, like, which is the 18th February. So From February until, you know, September, I'll be thinking about training and look back if you like. You know, I'll not be doing a lot of it, but I'll be introducing it and doing a little bit and, you know, trying to keep it consistent, right the way through. So, you know, we may not get on the team if you like. We may not, be successful. But If you're successful and you don't have your homework done, to me, that's kind of suicide.

It's like, you know, to be successful. So it's important, like, you have your homework done, that your dog is happy that you haven't fallen like with your dog. You know? I would often say maybe on my Patreon channel on that. You know, like, that that a lot of the things maybe that you do with the dog and that is It's like having a toolbox, you know, like, say, for a mechanic. You know? There'll be certain tools in that toolbox that Maybe only as necessary once or twice in the year. But if you need that particular tool on day. It's nice to be able to put your hand on it and use it. You know? So I see it the same with the dogs, and try as possible to almost cover every eventuality that could possibly happen, you know, on a trialing situation or that.

It doesn't always work, but that's kinda my mindset that, you know, a pause to try and possibly cover everything that may happen.

You know, it's interesting that you say that because, I find mindset wise, there's a lot of people who can be quite good at open trials. And, but it's almost like they don't believe they'll make it through to the big day so that they don't work really hard on their, you know, turn back. And tier point. I mean, if it's a young dog and you're not expecting to do anything, that's one thing. But to your point, like, some people have had a fair amount of success, and then there's they're still not ready for that big day, the final day, because they haven't done all the homework. They've just done enough to be able to do you know, be successful at that 1st level. They're not thinking bigger than that.

Yeah. Yeah.

So speaking of your, training program, obviously, it's going really well, and it's very popular, and you're traveling a lot now again as well. And you've come over to North America now a number of times over the years. What do you see as the biggest difference between North American sheep dogging, if you will. And your sheep dogging in terms of the way people go about it, the way we think about it, our livestock, any just sort of observations that you have.

One of the things that maybe makes it a little bit more difficult, I think, maybe, an America that is We're lucky here or I'm lucky. You know, a lot of us are are farmers, if you like, and we have large groups of sheep or or, you know, fairly large groups of sheep. It's quite easy, you know, if we make a little bit of an effort, you know, to to change out different sheets or or to change to different things for training and stuff like that. That's one thing that I that I think is, you know, when you know, like, Okay. Halby handlers, I feel like. You know? And and I don't mean Halby handler and a disrespectful term, but as people that are not farmers but our very successful, maybe, in sheepdog trialing, but they just don't have the access to, you know, the numbers of stock, you know, maybe the different phases and stuff like that. So I think that's definitely one of the the big challenges I feel like. Probably, A challenge that goes hand in hand with that one was the numbers of sheep on that.

I think because the sheep probably get dogs so much over there, a lot of the smaller flocks, you know, I think it's a real challenge to try and shed the sheep over there. You know, as I was in, I've been to parts of Europe on that, like, where the sheep are handled a lot more. You know, they're maybe housed a lot in the one third time and stuff like that. They they seem to get petted a little bit more, if you like. You know, they're more used to humans and that, and, No. They come once you go on to the field, if you like, and you send the dog in the outrun, more often than not, the sheep will run to the handler for refuge, if you like. On the stick around you. So, there's some times that I'm kinda in awe, to be honest, of some of the handlers how they can shed the sheep, you know, and how they have taught their dog to come on with such force, you know, and They did not on the sheds.

At some point, I would like to incorporate, maybe sometimes under my own shed, and then that what I say that as as being a big challenge. You know? She had in the shape of her. Our show dog broke.

What about the argument? Sometimes people say, and I'm just throwing this out there, that they feel your dogs are a little bit light because they don't have to sometimes muscle these heavy sheep or even cattle and can't do the the farm work, so to speak.

I think, to be honest, that there are some dogs that, you know, the sheep are a lot lighter, and they don't need to be, You know, what you're describing on the heavy end of it. I feel like the heat move freely and that. For me, personally, Have a good trial dog. I first have to have a good work dog. You know? And if the dog I was not able to do the work, you know, like, work, 200 deals with rams and, you know, pass on the road and put them under the pens and put them up the wrist and stuff like that. Well, to me, I'm not gonna keep it for trialing Because that's not you know, it it doesn't have come to my regime if you like. I get that's like having, you know, the tool in the toolbox. If they're not able to do that job, I'm thinking, you know, there's a possibility someday here that we may need that soon and we'll be empowered.

So I'm gonna try and avoid being caught away, if you like, in that scenario. Right. Some dogs, yes, are, you know, the, And maybe, again, it's not fair to say that the dogs are lighter. That it's maybe more fair to say that the dogs I've never had to be in a position or been put in a position where they've had to, you know, get stuck on to to move those sheep. A a lot of it, you know, with younger dogs and not and even an older dog, you know, but it hasn't been taught. No. It's always been taught if you like to stay back and, you know, keep off the sheep or not, and then suddenly you're to come on, you know, and maybe give them enough or whatever. You know, again, as confusion to the dog, so Unless I've been asked to do that, a few times, I think it's maybe a it's not a fair criticism, if you like, Just to assume that the dog is light, you know, if it if it hasn't been asked to do it.

You know, it's it's almost like, you know, say someone driving an automatic Medicare all their life, and suddenly you put them on to, you know, a a stick shift, you just call it, or, you know, the gear levers, and they have to change and not, you know, it's It's gonna be able to grind now and again to until they get the hang of it. You know? So Right. That's maybe a lot about the same with the dogs.

Yeah. Definitely. So I've got a interesting question for you. What was your darkest moment in sheep dogging?

Mhmm. Uh-huh.

I'm sure there's been lots. Like, we all have them. If we sheepdog, we have dark moments. But

The biggest disappointment maybe would have been at a national where we where we put up quite a decent run, both didn't make the team. I just you know, it was kind of a blow. She like, You know, everyone or the majority of people were saying, you know, you had a good role in there. You know, it could've went either way if you like. You know, we're we're trialing quite a while now, and I'm probably honest. I'll hold my hands up and say that I've made a mess of it or whatever. You know? But You you know yourself when maybe you're deserving of something and not deserving of it. And sometimes it, That was kinda disappointing when things like that happened, but that that's trialing, and that's that's the way it'd be.

How did you handle that? Like, how did you come back from that? What did you sort of tell yourself to turn that around?

You you just gotta, you know, pack yourself up. It's like as I was supposed to say, like, right in a horse that if you fall off, you have to get up again, you know, or get back on. As a also mindset that the triangle trialing was now, as you know, that I I will aim to leave absolutely no room if you like, you know, for error, you know, where they can, points can be deducted. Like, you know, you're Always going to lose points or almost always. But if you have the mindset, you know, that you're going to try and leave it as difficult as Possible to take points off, but January works reason reasonably good.

Cool.

Like, Everything in life, you know, a positive attitude as as a big thing. You know? Like, there are lots days. Maybe we can be negative or whatever, but, you know, if you don't believe in yourself or believe in your dog, You know, your your maybe creating a problem for yourself.

Do you find that people sometimes do that? They look at their dog and a lot of people trying to buy success nowadays, and the dog's not good enough. And they're not trying to work with the dog that's in front of them. They're wishing for something else all the time, and so that makes them not be able to do a good job training the dog that's in front of them.

Yeah. That's possibly right. Like, I've had the comments Said to me, over the years, there's there's one that can just excite my mind. I'll not name the individual, but Hey, Kenneth. I made the comment that, you know, I was at the top of the tree, if you like, on a one word trial. But now, Beck is gone, and I'm finished. I has been. You know, comments like that to me are just like Throwing the pepper on the fire.

You know? It it just makes it explode. It just drives me to try and be more successful. You know? But As I say, I get a real buzz by the running young dogs and, you know, searching for that, you know, dog that maybe could be the one that you like that, we're all looking for it, and just nice, you know, to take a young dog, And, you know, become successful relatively quickly with it. It it it's just there's a nice feeling with it. You know, and it's not a big headed feeling or nothing like that, but rewarding, I suppose, maybe, is the way you would describe it. You know, there For me, there's a there's a real reward. You know, taking that young dog that has, you know, very limited experience, It's very young. People often say you can't put an old dog's head on a young dog's shoulders, and that is quite often true.

You can definitely, you know, make a a good stab out of it if you like if you have the right people, And you cannot try and go about it the right way. You know? Like, I'm a firm believer. I'm gonna show 1 dog so she like what to do rather than kinda bullying them and to train them. You know? Some of the The the older handlers of that, you know and, again, I'm not being disrespectful when I say this, but, you know, the the thinking was that, you know, you had to be hard. You had to be really tough on a dog. You know? People would tell you, oh, don't pet the dog, you know, or you you'll destroy it, You know, things like that there, but, to me, that's that doesn't make sense. Again, I'll I'll equate it back to the same as children or not or or the same as ourselves. You know, supposedly, we went to work together and, You know, say I was your boss, if you like, and, you know, give you a a number of jobs to do in the day.

I came back maybe after an hour and started giving out, you know, what's keeping you? Why have you not got that done yet? You know, hurry up. Look at the shape of that type of thing. You No. Most of us, if we have any self worth or self esteem at all, you know, you're gonna tell the person to go and take a run and jump to themselves. You know, I see it as being the same with the dogs. Like, I mean, I I hear their bullying all the time, and, you know, Don't reward them with the tender tones and stuff like that when they do a good job and praise them. You know, you're not gonna get the best out of them. No.

As as a partnership, if you're not a fair partner, like, I mean, well, no. They're they're not gonna live up to the end of the bargain if you like to. Mhmm.

So you often, mentioned that your your breed now, your line, is a very intelligent line, and you really love working with that intelligence. That's probably something a lot of people might equate with obedience, but that's not I don't think only what you mean. It's not just they're obedient, but they really think about the jobs that you're trying to teach them, and that allows you to be able to work with them together in a partnership.

Yeah. I would agree. Yeah. Definitely. You know, the line, like, I mean, It's maybe hard to explain, and people say, you know, oh, he's talking crap. He's promoting his own lane. You know? He's trying to sell dogs and, you know, what is it? You know? The proof of the burden is on the eating, if you like. You know? And, like, the proof of the burden for me as, you know, Repeatedly, I feel like doing it with the line that we have and being successful.

You know, like, that that's not It's not a fluke. It's like, that's a recipe that works. And, the the own dogs, like, they're, As I said, you you don't actually, you know, if you like portraying them. You can show them what to do and encourage them what to do, and and they seem to pack it up from that. And that's probably why, you know, that I can take out the young dogs or or some young dogs, so young because they just have that natural talent and ability. They don't do anything or they do little wrong, not They don't do anything wrong, but they do left all wrong. So, you know, you're able to move forward A lot of the time rather than kinda stays dull or be static. Like

Yeah. They get the lesson. It's not like you're in lesson 1 over and over and over and over.

Yeah. That's correct. That's correct. Like, I mean, it's it's intelligence, you know, on, again, it's probably the same with people. Like, you know, it's either there or it's not there.

So when you're working with the youngsters, is there something that you see in a youngster Hugo. And I remember you saying this way early on with Becca that you go, I think I've got a good one here. And it must have been that that you saw in her.

I I am probably looking back now. I am probably very lucky, and the fact that I that I do seem To be able to see things in dogs that other people can't see. You know, I can look at a dog, Probably take a dog out maybe 3 or 4 times. I'll probably have my mind made up, you know, If it's one to keep or if it's one to move on, you know, if it's one that's good enough for what I'm looking for, that type of thing. Mhmm. Generally, I can do that, say, maybe after 3 or 4 sessions for the dog. So I I can't actually explain it. I I can't explain what I see.

You know? It's just something, the mannerisms in the dog and the way it works. And, you know, maybe it's me thinking, And, you know, the the the things that I see, I like. You know? I say I'm thinking to myself, you know, yeah. Well, I can work with us, and I can do this with that. And, you know, I'll be able to, you know, tap on there and stuff like that, but I I can't actually put it on words as to what I'm looking at, if that makes sense.

Yeah. No. For sure. And I think we all probably have, what I kinda call our deal breakers. Like, there's some types of things, like, in a dog that, you know, you just can't live with, or you're not good at training, so you don't wanna, like, maybe deal with that element of it. Or, you know, like, some people like to Bring Dogs On and Encourage Them. Some people don't wanna have to encourage them. They want to be able to kinda get on with it.

Some people are really good at training certain elements of work. So I suppose that can all influence things. But, I mean, you're seeing it very early on just sort of the mind, whether you like the mind and maybe the relationship that that dog has with the sheep even.

Yeah. Yeah. I like that. The dog has to have a willingness to, you know, to work with you. It has to, you No one has to want to be there with you. You know, it it can't be half hearted in its approach to work and stuff like that. And Probably attitude is a big thing that, you know, I see in the young dogs and that, you know, natural ability and talent, definitely. But It doesn't matter how much natural a baller they and talent they have.

If they're not willing to work with you, you know, you you can't He can't make a job of it. You know? So, like, that's probably a combination of all those things put together that can, you know, make, The good dog if you like that that it that it works, that you can maybe be successful of it.

So how do you simplify things for somebody or even for a dog that maybe you're working with but isn't kind of, maybe just is stuck at something? How do you simplify or set up the situation to kind of make it easier for the dog to learn, or maybe it's a separate question, make it easier for the person to learn. Because, you know, in herding, there's so many variables. There's so many moving parts. Sometimes you have to simplify it down so it's really easy for the dog to be right or wrong and make it really clear to them. What are ways that you think of to try and help make things really simple for a dog or for a person, if that's easier to explain, to make it real black and white for them what right and wrong is.

Like, the first thing, if you like, was starting out with young dogs and not, you know, as The the environment that you like that you train on, you know, so don't don't go on to too big of an area starting off, you know, with the young dog or that Because you're more often than not looking for a recipe for disaster. You know, if it's too big of an area and say the dog gets one or 2 bad experiences. Well, bad experiences from the handler's point of view as to where, you know, maybe it takes off after the sheep and thing goes 1 or 2 out, and runs a 100 meters of them and holds them on the ditch in the big groups. And, you know, the time you get that 100 meters, they're gone to the next 100 meters or 200. You know? And I just that that, You know what? It could be 2 or 3 minutes, which is very local and time frame, but that 2 or 3 minutes and the young dog's a brain. Could be setting something up that it could take you possibly 6 months or a year to try and correct again. So the big thing, the environment you train on, that you try and avoid circumstances like that happening, The next thing you need is good dog, brook, show sheep for, you know, with a young dog starting out. So, like, I mean, maybe with an older dog or that, generally, we will maybe keep some of the The smallest lambs left over, if you like.

You know, they're we'll dog them a little with an older dog, maybe spend 10 or 15 minutes cutting the dog round and round, just making them dog broke that that that those stake in a relatively close to you.

Now when you say dog broke, though, sorry to interrupt. You don't mean knee knockers, though. You mean just a chief that'll move readily for dogs.

Not being offered. No. We well, I thankfully, I don't And I get them broke to that extent, you know, that they are knee knockers that they'll they'll run to you. And the idea for the smaller sheep as well as, you know, if they did happen to come around on that, they're less likely to do much damage. And also WAF the dogs, you know, a young dog or that, you know, that they don't cannot trample or, you know, like, As you've seen maybe some of the videos, I start some of the pups quite young or that, you know, and if one of those smaller lambs, you know, maybe Tramped on the dog or that run over the top of it, but it's not going to do it any harm. So that's one of the advantages I like on the Kinda using the smaller lambs, not for just kinda starting sheep. Oh, sorry. Starting the dogs.

Oops.

Right. Oh, that's fabulous. So, one of the things, when I was getting ready for this, I was listening, to the Churchmont podcast that you did, I believe it was. And, you commented that you're very determined. When you start something, you're gonna, like, make it happen. Obviously, it's played a lot into your success, but what I find is there's a real recipe for success. I find most people that are successful at something, there's a similar pathway that they take, and one of those things is determination. So when you got started in this, did you write from the beginning go, I wanna go to the top?

I probably did, to be honest. I'll go back a week, but when I was about 15 or 16, I went to two 2 local trials here, and I I ran a dog and not very successfully, but ran it on it. And I kinda went away from from dog trial, and then, you know, that that was my kinda that was my 1st introduction to to run on that, you know, Trials. I ran on 2 trials, not very successful. And if I'm honest, probably was of the mindset that, You know, a trial dog is not necessarily a good farm dog. If we fast forward them about Maybe 13 or 14 years. I was in my late twenties. But the international, which was in Seaford in County Down, Northern was advertised on the local livestock market where I used to work.

I've seen the advertisement up, I thought might go and take a look at that. You know? I hadn't been you know, I always had a reasonably good farm dog, you know, for work on that, But never had a dog for a trial now, but I decided to to go and have a look at the international. I rang 1 or 2 people that I knew was involved in sheepdogs, locally. They were Already at the trial, if you like, or or had other arrangements made. So I ended up driving up myself, which For you guys, it's like going to the shop for, but it was a little over to your grave here, which, we we consider quite a bit. Well, anyway, I went to the international, and it was the final day, the supreme. And I was just Totally flabbergasted by what, you know, the dogs could do. I I never envisaged the sheepdog trialing The the supreme, the double gatherer.

But, I'd never seen that before. You know? I used to watch 1 man and his dog as a youngster, and I was totally kinda clicked on that, every Sunday evening. I used to come on and watch it. I probably would've went out and tried and replicate some of it again with the dogs, not very successfully. But, I always had an interest on it. But I was just totally and utterly blown away, with what Could be done, you know, the turn backs and the international share and stuff like that. I just said to myself that day, I want to try this. I actually bought a Wholesale at the trial.

On my way home, I made up a set of whistles. Quite simple, but I made them up. And the very next day, I had quite a useful young bitch at the time, I went trial or sorry. Not trialing. I went training, with the mindset that I was going trialing. Right. The last young bitch that I had was was a decent one, and I had another young dog at the time, which was a Scrimgeour's Ben son. He was quite strong at the time, but the bitch probably was the more "trialy" of the 2.

But, made a mistake one day and that I came in for lunch, and I left the 2 dogs running around the yard. I was only in maybe half an hour or thereabouts, but when I went back outside again, both dogs were gone. Again, Like, most lessons I feel like we're learning in life, the one you learn in the hard way tends to be the one that sticks in your mind the most. Mhmm. So, I just had to be careful from there on. And if you like with the dogs and that, then I would be quite careful now that, you know, not to let more than 1 young dog out at a time because, you know, that's like teenagers, that type of thing. Like, I mean, As individuals are 2 together, they're not too bad. But once you add more to them, they can go out of control? Mhmm.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make, you know, I was determined to try and be successful early on. That was a big spanner in the works, if you like, into my plan that, again, I had laid out because, again, I had quite high hopes for that particular young bitch. But Like, every setback that you like in life, you know, you can't you can't let it get you down. You know, you you have to just try and raise above it and take it on the chin, so to speak, you know, try and move on, try and get something else again. So Mhmm. That's that's kind of where, you know, my determination, I feel like, would I would be kinda tunnel vision of, you know, if I Put it in my head that I want to do something or, you know, whatever it may be. I'll always well, maybe not always, Maybe 98% of the time, I'll try and find a way of making it work.

Mhmm. Yeah. Sheepdogging, I think, is particularly can be hard on one's ego. I remember we were in, trialing in, the North of England, I think. And I forget the trial we were at. But, one of the fellows who was trialing was, you know, one of the top guys. He'd been winning all sort of the local trials in the area. And we drove up, and we were pretty new.

We'd been there for a week or two. And we pulled up, and they were pulling his sheep out of the river. There was a river that ran alongside the trial field. And so we were looking the friends I was traveling with, we're looking at each other thinking, maybe we should go to another trial because I'm not sure I wanna run this one. We did run it, and it was fine, and our sheet didn't go in. But to the point, it happens to everybody. Stuff happens, and you have to bounce back from it.

For sure. For sure. Like, I mean, it's how you deal with things in life. You know? Like, People people will often, you know, look at other people, you know, Maybe with rose tinted glasses, you know, because they're successful or whatever. You think, oh, it's easy for them. They haven't had the problems that I've had. You know, they haven't had the setbacks that I've had, but as as of the old saying, you know, If you walk a day in someone else's shoes, you you might discover maybe they're not that comfortable altogether. You know? They they don't felt that good.

That's probably human nature where people just, you know, have that thing, you know, that, oh, they got it easier than me, you know, that type of thing. But They're they're not seeing the the obstacles that, you know, people have had to overcome to to be successful. You know? And Success is not something that you're you know, was it's not a given rate, if you like. You know, it's it's something you have to earn. It's something you have to work for. Mhmm.

No. For sure. Well, that's a fabulous note to end on. I just can't thank you so much for, you know, giving your time and also for the program that you put out to help so many people with, their sheep dog work. I think it's just wonderful stuff. So thank you for doing all that work for everybody and helping make the sheepdog world better.

Well, Thank you very much, and, a special thanks to to yourself for, giving us the opportunity to do this and, Also for being a a participant on our Patreon page and that's, like, you know, without yourself and all the other patrons, like, I mean, there would be no point in us anybody else on that. To be honest, as opposed to Patreon page, it's gonna taught me a lot over the last number of months. That that has actually helped my training, I think, quite a bit, to be honest, because before, I would have been, You know, I'd I'd have been assessing the dog, whether I'd have been working it, you know, and things like that. But now I kinda discovered, you know, that I'm that I'm trying to explain all the things that I'm seeing. I'm probably seeing more things than I ever seen before, if that makes sense, just because I'm maybe looking so hard at it now to to try and explain it to the viewers and that, you know, All the body language and explaining that, you know, where to to watch out for things and stuff like that. So that definitely has helped me on my training, as well as as maybe helping other people. So definitely grateful for it in that regard.

Oh, for sure. Definitely, when you have to teach and explain something. It makes you better at what you do just all around because you just are more conscious about the decisions you're making and why you're making them.

No. No. Definitely would agree with that. Probably, if you'd asked me that question when I started or first, I would've said, no. You know? That That wouldn't make any difference, but, I would have been wrong in that assumption because it definitely has made a difference. You know? I definitely looking at slightly different mode and on a better way, to be honest.

Well, thanks again, James, so much for sharing your wisdom. If you wanna find James, I'll put the link in the show notes. You can get to his Patreon page and check out his fantastic learning community. And, also, if you wanna support my podcast, you can go to kathykeats.com/supporttheshow, and you can buy me a coffee and sign up to find out when the next podcasts are coming out and, also, give me some feedback as who you'd like me to interview. Thanks very much for joining me, and I will see you in the next podcast.