Join Dal. The Happiologist’ and host of "Doing It On Purpose," as she tackles the sensitive and crucial topic of abuse and domestic violence within South Asian communities and more broadly.

This episode goes beyond physical abuse - exploring the often invisible and various forms of emotional manipulation, control, and intimidation that can leave lasting scars and can have a huge impact on mental and physical wellbeing.

Shaila Pervez, manager from Roshni, a vital support system for BAME communities, shares her insights on:

• The many faces of abuse: Recognizing what abuse is, not just physical but including emotional abuse, gaslighting, manipulation and other tactics used to control and silence victims
• Breaking the cycle of silence: Understanding the patterns of abuse and their devastating long-term impact on individuals, families, and children
• Challenging cultural norms: Navigating cultural factors that may enable or minimize domestic violence
• Finding your voice and strength: Empowering victims to seek help, create safety plans, and overcome fear
• Hope and a path to healing: Witnessing how thousands of people have said enough is enough, and moved on to live happy, fulfilled, meaningful lives.

This episode is not just a call to action. It's about recognizing the various signs of abuse (many of which aren’t that obvious), understanding the complexities within certain communities, and offering resources and support for victims, as well as assurance that you can get out of abusive situations and live a happy life.

***IMPORTANT***

It's important to remember that you are not alone and there is help available. If you are experiencing any form of abuse in a relationship, please reach out to one of these organizations for support.

• National Domestic Violence Helpline: https://www.nationaldahelpline.org.uk/
• Women's Aid: https://www.womensaid.org.uk/
• Refuge: https://www.refuge.org.uk/
• Men's Advice Line: https://www.mensadviceline.org.uk/

And Find out more about Roshni here

Global helplines can be found here

Additional Resources:

• Samaritans: https://www.samaritans.org/, 
• Mind: https://www.mind.org.uk/
• NSPCC: https://www.nspcc.org.uk/, 

Welcome to Doing It On Purpose, your shortcut to reinventing yourself,

with a few giggles along the way, for all good brown girls and beyond.

I'm Dal, aka The Happiologist, your host, and after 20 years of

a lot of work, I've finally bossed this reinventing myself thing.

As a self proclaimed good brown girl, I've uncovered well being secrets

from my global travels, and I'm saving you a few decades of work.

And sharing practical tips for your own reinvention, and to

help you find your purpose.

And I'll be joined by some seriously smart, good brown girls

from the field of psychology, therapy, health and well being.

So if you're ready for a life upgrade, stay tuned.

And don't forget to follow The Happiologist on social media for

your daily dose of happy habits.

I'm Dal, The Happiologist, and I am doing this on purpose.

Hey everyone, it's your pal Dal, thanks so much for joining us today.

Today we're talking about a really tough topic and that's abuse in relationships

and for the purposes of today I'm talking about relationships being marriage

or romantic or intimate in some way.

A lot of us shy away from talking about this subject and

sadly it's still quite taboo.

But when I read sobering stats like one in three women and one in four men have

experienced some form of physical violence by an intimate partner in their life,

as tough as it is, you know, we need to shine a light on it and continue to tackle

this head on and as a global community.

And in South Asian culture, marriage tends to be seen as a status symbol.

You know, the wedding day is considered a celebration.

and a mark of a girl becoming an adult.

A huge sense of pride is felt, almost like the passing of a baton from, you know,

parents to the son in law and his family.

So when things go wrong, it's so tough and there is still this almost, you know,

what we'd say is unspoken tolerance for suffering, you know, in a culture where

divorce is often viewed as a failure.

You know, brings embarrassment and shame, you know, this is still happening.

So while this is finally beginning to change somewhat, as more women

are starting to speak up, these deep rooted sentiments still remain.

So I just want to say abuse in any form is serious.

And I say that as I've certainly been a victim of it in the past with

millions of others, and it's not okay.

And the thing is, we underestimate the long term effects it will have, not

just physical, but psychological too.

And it can stay with us forever and impacts every element of

our life if we are impacted.

So, you know, we really need to understand it better to protect

ourselves and, you know, and others.

We all have a duty to call it out.

Who better to talk us through this than Shaila Pervez welcome Shaila.

Shaila is a manager at Roshni, a helpline supporting BAME communities.

She is well qualified about talking this topic.

Although her actual background is in house.

studies where she qualified her interest in women's rights has always been there.

She's always been curious about it, always wanting to kind of push, you

know, forward, you know women's rights.

And it's an area over the last decade she's become very heavily

involved in which led her to becoming a board member for Roshni.

And she liked the place so much she joined them and is

working for them now full time.

So Shaila has helped hundreds of women selflessly through cases like.

What I've just described and, you know, Shaila works for Roshni, Roshni

for those of you who don't know, is a charity that supports BAME communities

affected by domestic abuse, including forced marriage and honor based abuse.

So, Roshni was set up back in the 70s and just support survivors through their

journey to safety, you know, confidence and independence, so they can live

free from violence, abuse and fear.

So abuse in marriages is a serious and complex issue, you know, it can

manifest in so many forms Shaila, and it's, you know, it's important

to recognize what those forms are.

So.

Could I ask you just to talk us through what actually is abuse.

I know there's so many types and some of us might not know that it's actually

even abuse that we're being impacted by.

So, could you take us through that?

Absolutely, and thank you for that introduction.

So I've been working for Roshni for several years, and in my experience, I

have seen many cases where women will come to us after so many years of abuse and

say, well, I, you know, I endured this because I didn't realize it was abuse.

And I still think there's a lot of misconception of people

understanding what abuse is.

So if we look at the definition of domestic abuse, it is a single incident.

or a pattern of conduct where someone is abusive.

The people involved are over the age of 16 and there's some personal connection,

like they're in a relationship, it's an intimate relationship,

it's a parental relationship.

And also at the top of abuse comes power and control.

So that, that is really important in those relationships where certain

spouses feel they need to have the control over their partner.

Now, abuse comes in many different forms.

We have abuse, which is physical abuse, which many people

recognize where there's injuries.

You know, there is violence that takes place, but there's

also other kinds of abuse.

And they are emotional, sexual, threatening behavior cohesive

control, financial, psychological.

There's many different types of abuse that can occur.

And some people will say, well, my husband, you know, he doesn't hit me.

Occasionally he may shout at me or, you know, he controls the finances.

But he's my husband at the end of the day.

And, you know, he runs the house and he's not what's best.

And, you know, I can't, you know, he's not a bad person.

But the thing is That is still a form of abuse and it's recognized

by the law in this country.

And there's so many relationships where people are enduring this kind

of abuse because they think, well, you know, he runs the house, he brings

the wages, you know, he has a right to guide me and direct me if I'm wrong.

And this is where sometimes women will also feel the fact

that, you know, he must be right because he's the man of the house.

But let me just explain here also the fact that we are a domestic abuse

service that predominantly serves.

Women, but also we have men who call our helpline and tap into

our services as well, who are also victims of domestic abuse as well.

And if you look at the Office of National Statistics, 1.

2 million people that are affected by domestic abuse are

women, but 700, 000 are men.

So over half are men, actually, as well, and what we find is there's quite a lot

of services and things available for women and places to go to, but there's

very few places for men to go to.

They're, and they're reported stats, aren't they, Shaila?

They're actually reported, right?

So that, you know, there's so many unreported.

Absolutely.

These are the only stats that come to that tap into services, the police,

social services, but there's so many cases which go unnoticed because they've

never ever tapped into a service.

And I'm sure that figure is much more higher.

So, you know, abuse comes in very many different forms.

It does.

And it's important that we recognize them.

So that we're able to call it out.

I'd like to go into that a little bit more because actually this is really

important because we've all been in relationships where we've all thought

that actually abuse is physical only.

But, you know, I know you and I have talked about in the past, you

know, there is narcissism, there's gaslighting, there's online digital abuse.

You know.

Love bombing, all of those things.

So can you talk a little bit about those specifically?

What are the, what do they mean?

Sure.

So narcissistic behaviour is where one person believes they're superior,

they have high expectations, they're very manipulative, and they

can be very charismatic as well.

So when it comes to extended family and friends, they're quite loved by

people sometimes out there because they have such an enduring nature.

But behind closed doors, They're very manipulative.

They are.

And it's sometimes quite difficult to call this out because a lot of the

people around you won't, won't see it.

And they'll think you're making it up because he's such a lovely person.

You know, he's, he's, he's a soul of a party.

He's so sociable.

He's so outgoing.

How can you say that you're misreading him?

You're not understanding him.

The next one is gaslighting.

This is where people question themselves.

They're often said, you know, it didn't happen like that.

You know, you're not remembering it correctly.

I didn't say that you're making it up and then also sometimes make you

apologize for things that you don't know why you're apologizing for.

So you start questioning yourself and you start doubting yourself

thinking, did I really say that?

Did he really mean it in that way?

So it's like, you know, really fuzzing the whole situation up where you're not able

to understand actually what's going on.

The other one is the love bombing.

And I call this the Bollywood style.

I do because most Bollywood movies are based on this where the man is

pursuing the woman, it rolls into a song and a dance and so forth.

And at the end, you know, he's won her over.

And this is the kind of love where someone will come and exaggerate themselves.

So basically there'll be.

Presence coming, there's texts, it's constantly in your face, they do not

back down and it's almost a form of stalking as well it is, because they

won't back down until you've given in.

So that's love bombing that is.

You've got something called ghosting as well.

This is where someone, maybe you're in a relationship, and someone just

abruptly ends the communication.

They're not speaking to you, they're not meeting you anymore, and they've

not given you a reason, there's been no situation, and you're just

left guessing what's going on.

And what that creates is that you start chasing that person, because you want

to find out what's going on, you know, why they're doing this, and they kind of

sometimes enjoy the chase they do as well.

So that's why they'll abruptly leave you, because they don't know what's going on.

They just feel like you're going to chase them.

That makes them feel wanted sometimes.

Yeah.

And I suppose that's, that's my point because it's interesting, you know, you,

you saying all these different variations of abuse because, you know, most people

will say, well, actually that's not abuse.

People think abuse is just actual physical violence, right?

But actually all of these forms of way people are treated.

are actually categorized quite rightly as abuse.

So I think, you know, people that are listening today would say, actually,

I didn't think that was abuse.

Absolutely.

And I think the mass media, the movies we watch, the songs we sing, you know,

they kind of reinforce that kind of abuse as well, because you think it's normal

for someone to harass you, to chase you, to stalk you, to love bomb you to the

point where you have to give in to them.

And that even the people around you will say, what else do you want?

You know, he's there for you constantly.

He's given you so much presents so much affection, so much, so much love.

You know, you know, surely you're crazy if you're not going to go for him.

Because this is the kind of culture we live in.

It's almost subconscious, right?

To the extent that you don't actually know it's happening to you.

You know, because like I say, your, your traditional way of thinking abuse is,

you know, by someone being violent to you, but actually your subconscious and

emotionally impacting you can be so much more impactful in terms of how a person

feels when you are, you know, playing with person from an emotional perspective,

because then that affects your wellbeing, it affects your mental health, right?

And we all know that when When our mental health is impacted,

it's, it's huge, right?

It's something that stays with you forever.

Absolutely, it is huge.

You're so right there.

So, so, so this brings me on to my next question, actually.

How would you be able to define, it's, it's a normal relationship?

Because, you know Somebody could argue, a woman or a man might argue, you know,

with their love bombing or, you know, gaslighting will say, well, actually,

you know, it was, this isn't an abuse.

This is, you know, an incident that happened.

So I guess for somebody, you know, for people are listening that probably have

had been victim to some of this, how do they know actually whether it's a problem?

an ongoing problem or whether it's, you know, part of the, you know, it's

a relationship and it's a one off.

How do you know?

I think first what we need to do is to look at what a

normal relationship looks like.

And in every relationship there will be up and down, ups and downs.

You're never going to have a constant high, a constant low.

It's always going to be going up and down like this.

But in a normal relationship when you're having issues, you know, normally

you can sit And you can talk through.

You're allowed to express yourself.

And you feel heard when you do talk.

You feel believed when you do mention, you know, what's

upsetting you, what's hurting you.

And during the course of this conversation, there

is always respect there.

So there's not, no foul language used.

There's no insulting, no harassment.

And you constantly have the best interest at heart for each other.

You know, you're able to share your concerns, you know, your

problems, share little secrets.

And there's friendship, there's laughter, there's open conversation.

And generally, you're allowed to be your true authentic self, that that

is what a normal relationship is like.

But if you look on the other side, you know, what is an abusive relationship?

It's the opposite to everything I've just said.

So basically, you'll have communications issues.

You will fear expressing yourself because you may fear the fact it

may escalate into an argument.

He may become violent or she may become violent.

They leave their house or they start telling other people.

So you kind of like have to constantly gauge how much you

can say in this relationship.

And sometimes, you know, when you do, you know, talk about how you

feel, you know, you're shouted at.

You'll stop from taking this anyone any further.

You're not, you're not believed.

Things are said to you.

No, it didn't happen that way, you know, you're exaggerating it, you know,

you're cooking this up in your head.

So you're not believed.

You know, there's bad language that's used, there's insults, intimidation.

And with, with abusive relationships, sometimes what you do find is there's a

lot of selfishness as well where you just care about yourself and you don't care

about the other person or how they feel.

Maybe, you know, they've confided in you about things about themselves

or their family members and you've breached that confidentiality.

You go and tell your family or you tell other people and they feel like, you

know, as my intimate partner, surely you should be, you know, this is between us.

But that conversation has leaked out to the wider family or friends, and

other people are judging you now.

And sometimes, you know, when you, sometimes you have relationships where

people, there's constant talking and arguments, but you sometimes have the

opposite where there's silences, you know, they give the silent treatment.

You know, you're not able to sit down and discuss through what happened.

So you're constantly just in your mind, just, you know, trying to answer and

question things all the time because there's no conversation, there's

a lot of hiding and maybe in your relationship, you wear masks as well.

So, you know, when you come home, you know, most people would like to

feel that I leave all my masks in the hallway because I'm going to come

home and I'm going to be my real.

True authentic self, but in some relationships, actually, you have to

wear a different mask when you come into the living room because you feel

like you can't be your real self.

Maybe we sometimes find with career women, maybe their husbands,

sometimes they don't like the fact that they're doing well at work.

So they're not able to share their their triumphs at home to say,

you know, I got promoted, I've got a wage rise, I've got this.

So they're having to hide things and cover things up or tip

toe around in the situation.

So, I mean, these are some of the differences that occur in what a

normal relationship would be like, as opposed to an abusive relationship.

And, you know, from what you're saying, it feels like, you know, the

signs should be so obvious, right?

They are obvious because there are changes in behaviours on both sides,

there becomes a repetitive pattern.

I think we become, and I think certainly you'll have seen this in the South Asian

community, I've certainly been guilty of this, Is that you get to a place where

you start to think it's your fault and actually it's you that's doing something

wrong rather than the other person and when you get to that place in a very

subconscious level, you start to think the other person is doing anything wrong.

It's you that's doing something wrong.

So therefore you need to change because, you know, abusers can be quite clever

in the way that they can position their way out of getting out of being

abusive in whatever form of abuse it is by, by saying, well, actually,

you know, you're just thinking me think you're overthinking, or, you

know, this, that was a one off or making you feel like actually, this

is you, rather than the other person.

And I think that it's that kind of fine line, right?

It starts to seep in after a while where you can't actually figure

out who is the person that's

Yeah.

Because that person's abusing.

Yeah.

We see, we see that a lot with women, actually, because, you know, there's

a lot, a lot of self doubt sometimes.

They're like, you know no, I don't I think he is right.

You know, I, I am maybe, you know, career centered, I need to

be more focused on the family.

I need to get my priorities right.

So you do get women self doubting themselves sometimes, but when you

sit with them and you question and you talk them through, and then you kind

of like, they speak to another person.

And then.

When you tell them that, well, actually, I don't think it's like that really, you

know, why are you thinking like that?

Because that person has kind of controlled your life and it's their,

it's their narrative that kind of dominates the scene and that's very

difficult sometimes to stand outside your relationship and evaluate it and see,

am I in the wrong or am I in the right?

And sometimes friends and families can also not see your perspective as well.

And that can be difficult to get like a neutral perspective on the

situation because everybody's involved.

Yeah, you're absolutely right and we'll go on to that in a bit, you

know, how, you know, talking to other people about it, but I think, you

know, from what I, you know, I'm aware abuse is often a very cyclical pattern.

So, you know, as we're saying, you know, periods of tension building up,

you know, and then there's this acute incident of abuse and then there's this

period of remorse or reconciliation.

So can you kind of give us a sense?

About what that cycle looks like, I don't know if you can give us some

examples of what that might look like.

So this cycle can work in, it does not always work in this pattern, but

there is a pattern that's been identified.

But sometimes it can go back to front, front to back or other way around.

I mean, but generally the first thing is that there's tension in the environment.

So there could be emotional outbursts, there's irritability,

impatience, shortness of temper.

So there's almost like there's something cooking up.

That's the first thing that happens.

The second bit is where there is an incident.

So there could be violence, insults, banging, threatening behaviour.

There could be financial control.

So something has actually occurred now.

That would be the second thing.

And that slowly would turn on to the third one, which is reconciliation, which

is where, you know, you've had time to think about what you've done, maybe you've

reflected and you and you've apologized.

Maybe there's been some affection that's been shown.

Some promises being made, but at this stage also is the stage sometimes

where you get the love bombing again, where someone's flourishing with your

attention, with flowers, with gifts and chocolates, because they're trying

to win your back straight away because they don't like that separation.

So that's the reconciliation.

And the fourth one is where everything goes calm.

So everything has kind of calmed down, is settled down now.

And there's a shift of responsibility.

So what happens here sometimes is this is where the couple may sit down and

say things like if you didn't do that, then I wouldn't have slapped you.

So it's done in such a way it's making you feel responsible for my behavior.

So, so if someone, if a husband slapped his wife, he'll say, well, you know,

you know, I'd come back from work.

I was tired.

I'd worked a long shift.

And then you started that argument.

I had no choice but to slap you because I had to stop you.

So, do you see how you've done that?

Now, don't do that again next time.

So, he's trying to justify his behaviour.

So, this stage is the stage where, you know, there's reflection, but

there's also sometimes manipulation as well, where you're trying to make

the other person feel like, don't do that again, because I may do that

again, then it won't be my fault.

Yeah, I've warned you.

Yeah, I've warned you.

Yeah, so this happens.

I mean this this cycle, you know of Things can happen but sometimes things don't

always necessarily go in that pattern as well And they can just shift to violence

or just shift to silence and there's nothing happening at all So don't always

think it always happens in this cycle this this way it can change as well.

We have seen it

And I guess people, you know, just listen to what you say when,

when someone is manipulating that way and saying it is your fault, you

probably become really insular, right?

So you, you, you, you stop being yourself because you're thinking anything is

going to trigger this person now.

Because it was my behavior and the dinner wasn't on the table at the

right time, or you know, I, maybe I overstepped the mark when I was

having this argument with that person.

So therefore they stop arguing, right?

Because they're fearful of anything that they say or do.

Could trigger that person.

Yeah.

And what happens is then people start, maybe the partner, the vulnerable partner

may start doing things accordingly and exactly how you want them.

So, so all their life is determined by, I must cook this food because this is

what he likes, be ready for six o'clock, make sure the kids are bed in time,

make sure the house is clean because everything is kind of the whole world

is situated around this individual.

So you're left with, who are you then?

You've kind of lost your identity, haven't you?

And this is where sometimes women will say, you know, I spent 15

years in an abusive relationship.

I know I lost myself.

I don't know who I am anymore because I just fitted in to, to,

to the lifestyle that he wanted.

And now that I've left him, I don't know where to go.

I don't know what to do.

I don't know where to start.

I need someone to tell me what to do.

And fear is a big piece of that, isn't it?

Fear is a big piece, but, you know, I started off at the beginning of this

podcast, but I, you know, talked about spotlight on South Asian communities,

you know, because it's really important for us to put the spotlight there.

And children are generally raised, as we know, to please

our parents and make them proud.

You know, not just through our achievements, but, you know, also that

whole thing around settling down with the right partner, having a family.

And then making sure most importantly, that that marriage sticks and you know,

women, they often feel defective if they can't manage their marital status.

There's this, you know, persistent view that women can handle more than men.

And so they carried on, right?

So that's, that's a viewpoint that you've got in your psyche anyway.

So divorce or leaving a partner, you know, can be.Really ego crushing for a

South Asian family, you know, as it's viewed as, you know, selfish self serving

can be seen as going against the grain of, you know, collectivism, or it can

be leading to and you've probably seen this a lot, you know, being ostracized.

You know, there are all these things, but I think culture plays a huge part

to play in knowing what you do next.

So if people are victims of any of the forms of abuse, which you said,

how, how can they start to get out of that, that more kind of fixed

mindset that they can't do anything because of all of these factors?

What is it they should start to replace that?

beliefs and thinking with.

I think I'd like to go a little bit back here is I'd like to look at what

the expectations are because there's so many expectations, especially of women

in a marriage, in a married situation.

And the first thing is how I've noticed in our communities, you know, people say

things like women need to be like water.

They need to be fluid.

So they need to be able to be moldable into any like utensil that they put into.

So if you're putting into a bowl, you become a bowl.

If you put into a kettle, you become a kettle.

You can, you've got no self identity.

And you just become what the other person wants.

I mean, there's a lot of emphasis on women having no personal identity and taking on

the identity of her husband, his family, his background, and leaving who she is.

So there's lots of expectations of a woman.

You know, for instance, a woman is meant to be a chef in the kitchen, you know, a

nurse for the children, a hostess in the living room, a seducer in the bedroom.

You know, she's expected to be all these different things around the house.

And just, you know, overnight, just by marrying someone the

next day, she's expected to, to do all these amazing things.

But the expectation of men is generally that he's the breadwinner.

That he's the master of his house, he's going to lead the way and

navigate this family and, and create lineage for this family.

That's the main roles that men have in a, in a marital relationship,

but with women, it's like, you know, the, the, the the expectation

that she's going to have children.

When she has children, it's expected that she's going to teach them well,

she's going to, you know, make sure to do well in school, make sure to

do well in their religion, be a, you know, a spiritual person, be a healer.

That's the Be a forgiver, you know, reserve judgment, you know, and

women are constantly expected to be in a very, very supportive role in

everything and support their husband in whatever way and fashion they think

they need to take this family forward.

There is so much expectation, I would say, on women.

Like you said, but how do we move forward from this?

Hmm.

You know, what do we do?

You know, it's not easy.

It's not like something I could say, Oh, we can work on a three year plan.

It's going to happen.

It isn't at all.

It's a change of mindset.

We have to understand that men and women are both humans and we have our faults.

You know, we have our, you know, we have our, you know, talents and gifts

and, you know, we can do various things, but sometimes we can't as well.

And we have to give them this space to be the people they need to be.

And like women need to have their own mindsets.

Well, they need to have the opinions.

They need to know what they think of for themselves, you know, how

they'd like to raise their family.

You know, what aspirations they would have, you know, so many times I find

that, you know, women are not allowed to have aspirations, we do a lot of

work with students and like sometimes girls would especially say, my parents

have said to me, you're going to get married in a couple of years time,

you're just seeing your time through at this moment in time, just do something

easy, nothing too taxing because you're going to be a housewife in the long run.

And that's your main role is so, you know, not having aspirations, not having

dreams for yourself, not having goals for yourself, you know that's really

sad because, you know, it seems that all these things are just catered for

men, men are meant to be ambitious, creative, travel, you know, have a

career, you know, have a vision for the next 20 years, but women are just

meant to follow behind somebody else.

Always, you know, you know, women today, you know, are achieving so much more.

They are having careers, you know, they are reaching and breaking

those glass ceilings that exist.

So, you know, things are beginning to change, they are.

But, you know, I think so much work still needs to be done though.

You're absolutely right.

And I think, you know, wonderful people like yourself that are really kind of

lobbying for this and, you know, you've, you've dedicated the last 10 years to

being able to support people around this.

I completely agree.

We're always going to have these taboos, certainly, you know.

in this kind of these, these generation.

But I think it is about, you know, I had a moment back then where I just

stopped and said, it's completely to your point, we're all human, right?

And we only have one shot at this life.

So I have to make a decision here.

Is this the life that I want?

For, for the rest of my life, right?

It is how I want to live.

It is how I want my children or my nieces or my nephews or people around me.

Is this the role model or the example that I want to set that this is okay?

Because it still is seen as a perfectly normal thing to happen

within a marriage or a partnership.

And we have to have that conversation with ourselves and say, actually, is this okay?

At any point, because you have the right.

I think we need to have conversations with the whole generation

of the family, with the elders, the in laws, the young people as well.

So we're all on the same page.

Because sometimes young people have certain aspirations and

dreams and things they want to do.

But the elders of the community are kind of like the gatekeepers.

And they will say, well, not in my family, that's not happening.

You know, we're going to follow the traditional route.

You can't go.

traveling the world.

You need to get married and settled and buy a house and have your

child within the first three years.

You know what I mean?

And I think, you know, we need to all be able to sit down and discuss what we

want to do as a family and what we see.

And I think, you know, we need to bring the elders on board as well, because

sometimes they can be the gatekeepers.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think that, you know, in relationships, it's been very clear

from the outset as well, there are certain things which I am not

going to tolerate you know, and being very, very clear on that.

You shouldn't have to be, but actually there should be things

that, you know, absolutely I will not tolerate in the relationship.

And if this happens, then, you know, I will no longer be in the relationship.

So we need to be a bit more braver around that.

I just wanted to go on to a bit more about the long term mental effects abuse

can have on a person and, you know, even people around them like children, we

forget that sometimes, it's not just about the individual going through the abuse,

it's the environment that you're in.

You know, so things such as, you know, cognitive dissonance, you know, which

is the, you know, psychological stress a person experiences when an action they're

involved in goes against their own values.

So I guess when something goes against your own values, there's going to

be disconnect somewhere mentally.

Where you've got this treatment going on, but actually it's completely

against who you are as a person.

So this will then, you know, you'll know this better than me, but will have

long term effect on your mental health.

Certainly did for me because, you know, you have to work through that

because it can, it can cause, you know, so many long term impacts.

But again, it's that whole thing around the impact it can have for you

and the impact it can have for those around you, specifically children.

What's your kind of advice around that or what's your understanding

around the long term mental effects?

What I see sometimes is, you know, when we have women who

come to us, they've endured so many years of violence and abuse.

They'll say that, you know, I put up with this marriage because I had children.

And my family said to me, it's not about you anymore.

You've got three, four, five children.

It's about them now.

So you need to do this for them.

And sometimes, you know, people will stay in abusive relationships.

The children have like a, you know, a happy kind of a home to live in.

But what happens is those children do suffer a lot, whether you stay

in the relationship, whether you leave the relationship as well.

Sometimes it happens in both places.

What will happen?

Some of the things you see sometimes is that the children

start underperforming at school.

There may be, you know, this antisocial behavior.

We had one woman who came into our refuge with like a 10 year old.boy And

he used to kick his mom and he'd hit her all the time, all the smallest things.

And then when we sat him down and we had a chat with him, why he was doing

this, he said that his dad used to hit his mom and he's hitting her now

because she's brought him away from his family, his friends, his cousins.

He doesn't like the new school he's in and it's all her fault.

So he would blame his mom.

And this is where mom would be really upset.

And she'd, she'd say to us that, you know, I've made took this.

Big step for him.

And now he's being upset with me and I feel really upset like, what have I done?

I'd rather have stayed home.

But you know, obviously there is support available, which is where

we know we got him counseling.

You know, we got him some special support services involved to help him get through

those things because they are quite challenging and it is very difficult.

And another case we had was where one woman had two autistic

children and she was getting a lot of abuse at home from her parents

because she had left her marriage.

And she said, I couldn't take it anymore.

So she moved into a refuge.

And what she found was, because the children were autistic, they found

the new environment, the smells, the noises, really upsetting.

And they were constantly crying.

Crying to the point where mum was like, I can't take this anymore now.

I'm going to go back.

So she decided to go back home again.

And she actually left her parents house on two occasions to go into refuge.

And she was like, I can't do this.

The kids will just not settle.

And she was like, you know what?

I'm going to stay at my parents house.

I'm just going to wrap my ears.

I'm not going to listen to what they say because I can't do,

I can't make these changes.

My children are challenging me.

It's very difficult when you have children in a relationship because,

you know you know, they get upset.

You know, you maybe as a couple are not getting on, but maybe they miss

their dad or they miss their mom.

And, you know, there's been issues around, you know, child contact and custody.

And, you know, it's very, very upsetting.

It's very difficult time on the children it is.

And they need a kind of a really good support system around them to be

able to help them make those changes.

But in the long term, you know, they do struggle, they do.

And you know, unfortunately, sometimes you do see the fact that, you

know, because they've had unstable relationships as growing up, sometimes

as they grow older, sometimes it may affect their own relationships as well.

So there are quite a lot of challenges, really.

There are.

And like you say, I think the kind of blurred lines come in again

when The, the husband, the partner is, is a great father, right?

And we're talking a lot of the context of women here, but obviously

we know it can be the way around.

So, you know it can be, you know, the woman, you know, who is the abuser.

But, you know, a lot of the time it can really affect.

The children, because they have that great relationship with the father.

And actually, again, that dilemma kicks in, doesn't it?

Where, where you say, well, actually he's a great parent and I don't, I will

take, I'll take one for the team, right?

I will take that abuse because it means my kids can be in a.

'safe' environment, which I think safe is, you know, that kind of, you know a typical

you know, family relationship, right?

So husband and wife, two children or three children, whatever it is, but you

know, that kind of safe environment.

So what would you say to people when they, their thinking is like that?

So where they're saying, well, actually, you know, he is a great dad

or she's a great mom, and therefore I can't upset the apple cart because

it's going to impact their happiness.

How, how do you, how would it, how would a person kind of navigate that in

their own head where they're, they'll stop thinking about themselves, right?

Because they're thinking about the children.

So what, what's your suggestions in those cases?

I think abuse is abuse.

If you are in an abusive relationship, you know, you've got to look at yourself

and what, what this relationship is bringing to for you, or it's doing to you.

And if you find that, you know what, this is not good for me, it's unhealthy for me.

You know, your partner may be a great mother or a husband or a father.

But because it's not working for you, you have to look at yourself first.

And I know, unfortunately, in South Asian culture, that's the last

thing we're we're told to look at because it's about sacrificing and

doing things for the larger good.

But if your relationship is abusive, it's important that you do make those

changes because in the long run, when your children see you be happy and you

know, there's, there's not like, you know, shouting going on in the house

or arguments going on in the house that will affect them as well in the long

run, because children do get affected.

You know, you may say, well, When we argue the children upstairs, but they're

always hearing and they always do know what's going on actually in the house.

When you speak to them later on, they do have an inkling that something right's

not going on and they may show that in different ways by being naughty, by, you

know, doing silly things to get attention.

So it's important that if there is abuse in the relationship

that you do get help for it.

And you don't think about making those sacrifices because in the long run,

even the children, when they grow up.

We've had cases where adult children have turned around and

said to their parents, why didn't you leave each other all our life?

We've been witnessing the abuse.

It was so horrible sitting upstairs on my bed, hearing my mom and

dad shout and swear and argue.

Traumatizing.

It's very traumatizing.

And, and they can sometimes, you know, They can get really upset by that and

they'll show that in different ways where they're not listening to you, they're

shouting with you, they're not coming home on time and we find that a lot with young

children is that they avoid coming home.

They'll stay out late, they'll get into trouble, they do all kinds of things

because I just don't want to go home.

So you're, you're almost thinking you're protecting them by not leaving

the relationship, but actually you're not protecting them because you're

subjecting them to all this trauma, which as you say, has long term impacts because

sometimes this is, because it's normalized behavior, it becomes generational, right?

So the child thinks.

You know, as I grow up, actually, it's quite normal behavior because

my dad used to do that to my mum used to do that to my dad.

So actually, this is normal.

So, no one wins in this situation.

Because it's, everyone, everyone is mentally scarred in some way.

Everyone is.

And, you know, that cycle continues, which is, is what you, you wouldn't want.

What advice would you give or do you give people in this situation?

So, you know, you're having these conversations and it takes a lot.

I know it takes a lot for a person to speak out first and foremost because

of a range of things, especially in South Asian communities, but in any

communities, because of the stigma, the embarrassment the impact, all of

those things are so many repercussions.

So I guess get into the stage where.

you actually verbalize it.

You know, for me, I couldn't verbalize it to anyone because, because as I say,

it's the embarrassment or the impact or the, the fact that, you know, you're

going to have to do something about it.

What would you say to people that are in that situation?

Know that they're in that situation.

I know somebody else that, that is actually potentially in that situation.

What advice would you give them?

What I would say is in South Asian communities, the concept

of honor is held in high regard.

This is where, you know, we pretend to appear like we're a really happy family,

we're getting on, everything is going great, but inside, you know, there's lots

of cracks, there's lots of issues going on, and we need to kind of, like, stop

holding on to this concept of honour.

And what I always say is the fact that abuse thrives in silence, and

the moment you lift the lid on by, by talking about the abuse, Something

will happen and something good will happen, something will come out of this.

But, how do you lift the lid?

What do you do?

The first things we say is try to speak to someone about it.

Someone safe, someone that you can trust.

Maybe that's a family member, maybe it's not.

It could be a friend.

It could be a teacher at school.

It could be a work colleague.

It could be someone at your doctor's surgery.

But the first thing you need to do is speak to someone.

And if you can't find anyone to speak to, or you're ashamed because you

don't want to show your face, the next best thing is to call our helpline.

There's many helplines out there, but we have a 24 hour Roshni helpline.

We do We have staff that work from different backgrounds who speak different

languages as well The first thing you need to do is just call and you know Sometimes

you may say i'm not sure if it's abuse or not And I don't want to tell something

they probably may think i'm stupid.

There's no such thing as a stupid Question.

What you need to do is just pick the phone and say, you know what, I just

want to talk about a few things and I just want to bounce off a few ideas.

Can you tell me, is this right?

Is this, what does the law say about this?

Or what are my options?

So, you don't even have to give your name to be quite honest.

You could say, you know what, I don't want to give my name.

But I just want some advice.

We're happy to part with your advice.

We're happy to discuss options with you.

You know, we will talk to you if you say things like, you know, is, is this abuse?

You know, what, what, what, what does the law say?

You know, what are my options?

Can I, can I get support?

Will this affect my benefits?

What about my immigration?

I'm from India.

I got married.

I came to the country.

I haven't got, My indefinite leave to remain at this moment in time.

What are my rights?

You're absolutely fine to speak to us.

You are, we will help you.

We will support you.

We will only breach confidentiality if we believe there was imminent risk.

And if there's no imminent risk, we're happy to continue supporting you.

So please just pick up the phone.

And just have that chat.

And if you don't want to pick up the phone, there's so many

online organizations you can send emails to, you can send

messages to, that can support you.

And I think the most important thing is that you try and connect

with someone or an organization out there just to get support.

That's the first, that's the first step that you need to take.

And from that, other things will be discussed with you.

And they may discuss things like, well, we may think you need counselling.

You may need, you may need an outreach support worker

to support you through this.

All this is available to you.

So, you know, I think it's important that you try and reach out to an organisation,

any organisation in your area.

So the key message really is kind of speaking up, isn't it?

And I think one of the things that, you know, certainly I know people that

have been in these situations and, you know, advice is giving, certainly

from the police as well, is people should log incidents as well, right?

So they need to keep a record because I think sometimes when it gets to

a point where, you know, it can get very serious and, you know, you go

to the police or, you know, you're asking to, to recall incidents.

You know, sometimes you can't remember them, right?

And there've probably been so many.

So one of the things that, you know, people are always advised is to

make sure you log in this and, you know, you're keeping a note of it.

I mean, you shouldn't get to the point where all you're ever

doing is, is making a note of it.

You need to be doing something about it.

But I think if you don't feel comfortable going to the police or reaching out to

other people, then you really need to get to a place where you are recording this.

And making sure that you've got, you know, being able to recall

it more than anything else.

Sure, absolutely.

Sometimes people will think, well, you know what?

We broke up.

I never told anyone about it.

Then he turned up to my address and he was shouting on the door.

Then I never told anyone about it.

These could be little incidences for you, but they're very important to

log with the police because tomorrow, if this was to go any further,

you've got history to your case, you know, you're known to the system.

You are, you know, go and speak to your GP about it with respect to

your mental health, go and get the support you need because tomorrow,

if this was to go anywhere you know, you have, you're plugged into the

system and people are aware of the abuse that you're going through.

You won't have to start from scratch trying to build a case.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think, you know, one advice piece of advice I would definitely say to everybody

is, you know, just confide in someone, even if it is not professionals in this

space initially, just confide in someone.

Don't be fearful, don't be worried about judgment.

Just speak to someone that you're close to.

If you have all of that kind of fear within you it's really

important to be able to.

To speak to somebody about it and get another person's you know, input on it.

So first and foremost, I think, you know, I'm sure you would say is to speak

to someone about it, but listen, this is, this is such a heavy topic, right?

It really, but it's so important for us to kind of shine the light on, but

I guess, you know, you've worked with people 10 years, again, men and women.

So do you have any examples, you know, I mean, I'll say success stories, but, you

know, examples where you've seen people.

You know, really be able to re navigate their life and, you know, and obviously

we can't mention people names, but you know, situations where you, and

I'm sure you've got hundreds because of the great work that you and other

organizations that are similar do.

But actually, where, what is the light at the end of the tunnel for people?

To be quite honest, we've had so many women who come through

our refuge services and our other domestic abuse services as well.

When they come to us, especially the women from India and Pakistan who

will come on a spousal visa in this country, they're very frightened to

get any support if there's domestic abuse going on in the relationship.

And it's something they do for the last resort because a lot of the times

the in law family and the husband will tell them, if this marriage doesn't

work out, I'm going to deport you.

And I'm going to keep the kids so they're very scared.

And when they do reach out, because things have just gone

really, really too far, right?

The police come and they remove them and they bring them to our service.

They're holding on to their children for dear life.

They're absolutely frightened and scared because they believe we're

going to deport them and the social services will take the children.

But when they get to realize actually what their rights are And

they're like, well, I don't have immigration status in this country.

I've not been here five years yet.

And we're like, no, under the domestic abuse law, we can support you and

we can secure your immigration.

They're absolutely shocked.

And, you know, because they didn't believe that at all.

Because they were always told that, that they need to make this marriage work.

And if it fails, they're going to be sent home and their families won't take them

because obviously the concept of honor and, you know, she didn't, she didn't

work hard enough on a relationship.

So what we see is these ladies can sometimes stay with

us for about up to a year.

And within a space of the year, we see them flourish, absolutely

grow, spread their wings.

They start to learn the language.

Some women have never handled money before because the money had always

been managed by other family members.

So we teach them how to budget.

How to live within their means, how to take the children to school.

They start doing ESOL classes.

Some will maybe start, you know, learning a small skill so they

can set up a little business.

And within a space of a few years, they really grow and develop to the

point they've become independent now.

So they've moved on, they've got a flat somewhere.

They're beginning to work.

The kids are going to school.

And they've really got their life in order now.

And they have a plan.

And they'll say something like, you know what, I'd love to go to university.

I want to study this or I want to set up a beauty salon or I want to be a teacher.

And they've got aspirations for themselves.

They've got dreams for themselves, which they've never ever had before.

They weren't even allowed to think like that.

And you know, they're like, you know, you can see even the way they walk changes.

The conversation changes.

They're smiling more.

The confidence.

Absolutely.

They're looking after themselves more.

And they're like, you know what?

I never knew there was light at the end of the tunnel.

And we're always like, you know, Roshni is like a lantern, you know, we hand it

over to every woman that comes with our service to help and navigate the way.

And eventually, after a space of time, you know, they do get there.

And when these women come back to us, some are like, You know what?

I want to give back to the community.

I want to come and work for you.

I want to volunteer.

Some will donate into our service as well and say, you know, we'd

like to make donations because you helped me when I had nothing.

And today I have something and I'd like to help you with whatever I have.

And we're absolutely delighted.

And we have this whole family of women that have been interacting with our

services for over 45 years now, that do come and stay in contact, follow us on

social media, donate, promote our work.

Come and work for us.

And it's an amazing and incredible to be quite honest to see that journey.

We see the women from the start all the way to the end and what you see at the end

is a very different person to what was the person who was who came to us initially

who's frightened and scared and didn't believe there was any support and thought

it was the end of the road for her.

Mm.

Wow.

I mean, so commendable for organisations like yours as well

that are helping these people.

And I think, you know, it can take, it takes kind of all

sorts in these situations.

It can be people that are, you know, professionals, right?

And, and, you know...,

we have, you know, we have, you know, people think domestic

abuse happens in the working class.

It happens with people who are not very educated.

We see domestic abuse happening.

in all areas and all walks of life.

We have professionals, doctors, dentists, barristers, women who are

going through domestic abuse, but can't tell anyone because they have this

pristine lifestyle outside that everyone thinks they have three holidays a year.

They have a lovely house.

They have lovely cars outside.

What can possibly go wrong in that relationship?

You know, you're qualified, you know, your rights.

We have women who are like barristers who are going, you know, the law inside out.

Who still can't talk about it themselves.

They're finding it really, really hard because they have this

image to maintain and upkeep.

So it's a lot of pressure.

It's a lot of pressure.

It's a lot of pressure.

And again, it's that pressure.

It's what society going to think.

And, and I think the biggest thing is, and this is a whole separate kind of

podcast, but it's all around fear because people are thinking too much into.

What is X going to say, what's going to happen to me, you know, what's you

know, am I going to be able to survive?

Will I still have this big house?

But, you know, to your point of some of the, you know, great stories that

you shared in terms of, you know, the light at the end of the tunnel

is that actually the, there's a lot of time spent being fearful when

actually you don't need to be because.

You know, you, you can, you know, with, with support from organizations

like yourselves, with your, you know, your friends, your family,

you can get to a place where you never thought you could be right.

Because you've been brave enough to push past that fear.

And our brains are automatically, you know, you and I both know this, our brains

are always looking out for fear anyway, because our brains haven't evolved, right?

So we're always on high alert and we're always looking for danger.

And when we're in situations like this, which are dangerous situations, right?

We're thinking actually, I'm probably safer to stay in this environment

than go and look for more danger, because that's what fear is.

But actually you've got to get to a place where you can see that there

is a way out and taking small steps.

And I'd say, and I'm sure you agree when you're talking to people, actually, is

take small manageable steps rather than thinking that you need to get out of

this situation, you know, immediately.

And I think it's going to be all right straight away.

You know, it won't, it will probably take a bit of time, but actually

taking small incremental steps to be able to get yourself to a better

place is so much less overwhelming.

And less fearful.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

That's so true.

Mm-Hmm.

So much, so much that we've unpacked there.

I think.

Look, I'm so grateful for all the, the information, the advice that you've given.

And I think you mentioned there are quite a few organizations out there.

So, so would people just, you know, and we will certainly put some links

in with, with, with this podcast to share with people, but I guess,

you know, first and foremost, you know, they can come to Roshni and

lots of other national associations.

I think there's a national domestic violence hotline as well,

which we'll put the details in.

There's loads of organizations.

You just need to Google them and a whole list will come for you.

What's available in your area, wherever you are in the country.

Brilliant.

Okay.

Well, listen this is fantastic.

What I usually do at the end of this podcast is, you know, slightly on

a lighter note, um, and probably more in relation to you as an

individual rather than the topic.

So I usually just have a couple of quick fire questions.

One question that, you know, I'd like to hear from everyone, especially with me

being the Happiologist, you know, knowing what you know now, you know, what, what

would you say is the key to happiness?

That's a good question.

I think the key to happiness is contentment of the heart.

If you're content with where you are in your life, with your partner,

your career, your lifestyle, whatever choices you've made in life, right?

I believe you're the most happiest person you are.

And I think happiness is not measured.

By assets and wealth and cars and houses and holidays and things.

I think it's quite deep.

It is.

If you're happy being a window cleaner and that gives you

contentment of your heart and your, you feel like, you know this is me.

This is who I am.

I am true to myself.

I think that's the most happiest person that there is.

I think happiness is very simple.

I think it's very simple.

We've overcomplicated it.

Yeah, I completely agree.

And then the other quick question I wanted to ask you is, if you knew

then what you do now, you know, what would you tell your 20 year old self?

What advice would you give yourself back then?

I know, it's an interesting question, right?

Oh God, I would tell my 20 year old self is believe in yourself.

Follow your dreams and don't listen to anyone.

Because you know what you want better than anyone else and I think

sometimes you know when you're young Everyone's trying to guide you and

tell you know, this is right for you.

This is great This is good.

And sometimes you become so overwhelmed and you're like, okay, I'll take

this person's advice on board I'll take because they're older.

They're not better than me.

But actually sometimes you live in your own skin You know yourself better

and you're sometimes able to make those judgments while for yourself So

if you can then you know believe in yourself and do what you need to do

Oh, I love that.

I absolutely love that.

Listen, thank you so much for unpacking all this for us.

I just want to say a huge thank you to Shaila.

You've shared lots of information, lots of resources.

And, you know, I would just say to everyone, we will put some, some links in

with this podcast and do check out Roshni.

You know, they've helped thousands of people be able to kind of navigate this.

And as you know, Shaila's covered, you know, lots of really good, positive

stories that have come out of that.

So, You know, first and foremost, I think I would say, you know, just to leave you

with, abuse does come in so many forms.

If you feel like it's abuse, you're not sure it's abuse, then ask the

questions, you know, don't be afraid.

Secondly, you know, fear is a big thing that does get in the way.

I completely understand, but actually speaking to somebody about it, even

if it's someone close to you initially no one's saying you have to do

something about it immediately, but.

I would say if any of these things resonated with you, anything made

sense from what Shaila was saying then do speak to somebody else about it.

And remember, you are the most important person and you need to put yourself first.

It's really important you put yourself first because once you do

that, you're able to help others.

So you are a really important person to never forget that.

Thank you, Shaila.

Thank you so much.

I wish you all love and light.

Thanks everyone for listening.

Thanks for tuning in lovely listeners.

Any questions or thoughts?

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