Leadership is a journey of constant tension – between expectation and authenticity, between comfort and courage, between being liked and being effective. What if you could transform those tensions into your greatest source of strength?

Join me for an extraordinary conversation with Sir Ashley Bloomfield, a leader who navigated one of the most challenging leadership landscapes in recent history. During New Zealand's COVID-19 response, he became the face of national resilience, embodying leadership under unprecedented pressure.

In this personal and candid episode, Sir Ashley pulls back the curtain on the raw, unfiltered realities of leadership. We'll explore the delicate balance between personal conviction and public expectation, the art of making tough decisions when the whole world is watching, and how to maintain your humanity while bearing immense responsibility.

In this episode, we dive deep into the heart of leadership, exploring:

• Leadership as Inspiration: How an unexpected source – the beloved character Ted Lasso – provided unexpected wisdom during New Zealand's most challenging times
• The Leadership Landscape: Navigating the complex terrain of modern leadership, from the rise of populism to the critical importance of empowering others
• The Transformative Power of Agency: Understanding how true leadership is about creating space for others to act, not just directing from the top
• The Courage of Vulnerability: Why saying "I don't know" is sometimes the most powerful leadership statement you can make
• The Dangerous Allure of Simplicity: Unpacking why quick fixes and simplistic solutions can be more harmful than helpful in complex challenges
• Adaptability as a Leadership Superpower: Exploring how continuous learning and flexibility are essential in our rapidly changing world
• The Nuanced Art of Kindness: Discovering the critical difference between being "nice" and being truly kind in leadership
• Decision-Making Decoded: Balancing the drive to be decisive with the wisdom of thoughtful, inclusive decision-making processes
• Leadership Under Pressure: Understanding why personal conviction must often triumph over personal comfort
• The Ripple Effect: How principled leadership can transform not just organisations, but entire communities

Get ready for a conversation that goes beyond traditional leadership advice – this is leadership unpacked, unfiltered, and deeply human.

These insights promise to challenge your understanding of leadership, offering a fresh, nuanced perspective that goes beyond traditional leadership advice.

You can follow Sir Ashley on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashley-bloomfield-knzm-cminstd-b7181b17/

Check out my services and offerings https://www.digbyscott.com/

Subscribe to my newsletter (https://www.digbyscott.com/thoughts#subscribe) or substack

Follow me on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/digbyscott/

My guest today is Sir Ashley Bloomfield. If you live in New Zealand, Sir Ashley needs no introduction. He's pretty much a household name. He's had songs written about him and he's inspired all sorts of merch with his face on them, including earrings, hand towels, even pies. During the COVID years, the media reported that if he was toilet paper, we would have panic bought him. If you don't live in New Zealand, you might ask what makes the world respond to a man in such a way? Well, he served as Director General of Health between 2018 and 2022, which you'll likely remember include what we now call the COVID years.

I got to know Ashley when I worked with him and his executive team at the Ministry of Health through those COVID years as their team coach. Back then we got to dig deep as a team on how to lead in uncharted high pressure territory. So I thought, well, why not dig deep with him on the podcast? And here we are. Ashley, welcome to the show.

Kia ora, it's nice to be with you again.

Yeah, we tend to catch up in all sorts of interesting places. And it feels like an extension of a conversation we had a week ago when we're thinking, what are we going to talk about? And we didn't let too much fizz out of the bottle, but there's plenty of territory I want to cover. The place I want to start is when you hear the word or the words Ted Lasso, what comes up?

Thanks for that, Digby. Yeah, interestingly, was one of my members of the executive leadership team at the ministry who, when I was there as DG, who we were talking one day, and she said to me, it's all in Tidalasso. This was the first time I'd heard of this thing. And I have to say, was a time in my career when I didn't have a lot of time to be watching things on TV, Netflix, or whatever it was. She said, you've got to watch it. So I did start watching it.

And I watched the first two series. Actually, I have to confess, I only got halfway through the third series. I thought it was just getting a little bit too syrupy for me. But the thing that really resonated for me around Ted, and I'm saying this as a lifelong, deeply committed optimist, was just it's totally there. It's in the attitude.

The way he treats people is in that constant optimism, hopeful, positive way, that positivity. And yet, and yet, it's really clear he's also struggling himself. He's fighting his own demons. And you talked about the one o'clock standups. And people remember and fed back to me and still feed back to me.

The importance of the fact I came across as calm and reassuring, well, it was a daily struggle because I felt anything but. So I wasn't fighting the sort of demons maybe that Ted was. However, our exterior, what we're showing on the outside, is often different from what's happening on the inside. And part of leadership, of course, not trying to hide it too much, being authentic, but also that classic thing about leading self.

In time and place, there may be many things you can't control, but you can always control how you want to come across. I took a lot out of both the opportunity to sit down and relax and watch Ted Lasso, but also just watching him play. And of course, it's a TV series and of course, it's all somewhat contrived, but there was a good message in there too.

It sounds like it was a tonic and inspiration at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. And isn't there something actually about that? You being able to have that, what would you call it? A pressure release valve in something like that, right? And I suspect there was a bunch more, but that one particular wasn't just a binge watch. There was something by the sounds of it that was reminding you of who you wanted to be.

Yeah, absolutely.

What does that say about the qualities? Maybe you've already answered the question. What does it say about the qualities you aspired to? Not maybe just for yourself, but for all of us during that time.

Yeah, well, you know, the thing about Ted is he tries to be the best person he can in his interactions with other people. you know, and this is the whole thing about and I also will. The other aspect I love about is and I can tell you put this on the table in front. I am not a soccer slash football fan. I can one Phoenix game in my life. I've been to one.

if a Liverpool game, which was fantastic. But you know, it's just not a sport I watch. I cannot get excited about it. But the point here was not about the football, even though one of the characters famously had this lovely line, know, football is life. The point was about the team thing and, you know, leadership is a team sport. That's the first thing. And the other thing about Ted is was just the way he interacted with and behaved towards people.

You know, emphasize for me, and I use this a lot when I'm talking about leadership, is that old adage, people don't remember what you said or they remember how you made them feel. And that is something that I constantly strive for, and not just in the work context, but I guess it's in your family, it's in your relationships with your family and friends and how you come across in your community and your interactions with people. And for me, there are strangers that come up to me pretty much every day still. So it's that.

Yeah.

You know, we can choose how we want to come across. And I love this analogy of the bicycle, you know, where we all have our own personality. And that's the back wheel of the bike. It drives us along. And for those of us who have got or have been around young, even very young children, you can see from just their first few days, you see their personalities start to come through. And those personality traits we have, they drive us all our life, the back wheel of the bike. But we can choose.

Yeah. Yeah.

which direction the bike goes with our behaviors. That's the front wheel of the bike. It's totally in our control.

That's a really cool analogy. You know, something's come up for me. I was reflecting with my coach last week about the qualities that I've always had that I reckon were probably there when I was born. And some of those qualities are probably dialed down as I've got older and others maybe are ready to come through as I'm.

as I'm at this stage of life. I'm wondering about for you, you mentioned the word optimism as you're the, you know, an eternal optimist. Where does that come from? And if we rewind, I'm wondering about is that something that, you know, if we were to look at Ashley of early in your career or even before you started your career, how would we have seen optimism coming through or?

at all or is it something that's had to be dialed up more in your latter stages of your career?

Yeah, mean, it's an interesting question. And unfortunately, both my parents are dead. Maybe I need to ask my siblings about that. But I just have a sense I've always been a pretty optimistic individual. I guess it's that sense that things will work out OK. So saying, it's perhaps easier to be optimistic, easier to be optimistic if you've got agency. And maybe that's part of it. And I wouldn't have called it agency when I was a kid. But I've always felt, you know,

Yeah.

that I've had an ability to exert some influence or control over things that were happening around me. And certainly, one of the observations I would make is the more senior you get in an organization, of course, the greater the responsibility. And once you're the chief executive, well, you're the CE 24-7 from the day you start to the day you finish. So you've got a lot of responsibility, but you also have enormous agency as well.

And in a way, it's the most kind of, it's a huge responsibility, but it's also incredibly empowering. And if you feel like you've got, you're able to exert influence and control over your circumstances, over the organization in terms of the culture you want to build, the way you want to lead, then that's great. Of course, it can be deeply challenging at times too. And especially working in government where, you you're also in the service of

the government of the day and sometimes you don't feel like you've got a lot of agency. But we always have agency over what we do, including whether we do or don't stay in a job. We can make those decisions and be in charge of our own destiny as well.

Yeah.

I'm a massive fan of that. I reckon all of my work comes back to that word agency and choice, right? You know, it's the whole Victor Frankl man's search for meaning, isn't it? when it all comes down to it, it's the people who survive are the ones who realize that they do have choice about how they respond to their circumstances and choose hope and choose a positive future.

It's interesting that one, because I think I come across a lot of leaders who I reckon forget they've got agency. And I'm thinking about that. It's always there. What smothers it, do you reckon?

Hmm.

Yeah, well, it's in a way, it's not surprising that it gets smothered, at least at times. I had this wonderful description of when I did a program at Oxford, which I learned a lot of. And it was great timing for me, 2017, a week on the strategic leadership course. And little did I know six months later I was going to be DG, and 18 months after that, global pandemic would start. But one of the

Good timing.

one of the lecturers or tutors on that course said, know, leadership's like wading into the swamp. You don't get up every day, and this is my take on it. You don't get up any day thinking today's going to be an easy day. I'm going to just be tiptoeing through the tulips. It is challenging. But that's OK, you know, if you accept that. But sometimes, you know, the swamp gets pretty thick. It gets deep and it feels really hard going. And it's not surprising. You know, we're humans, so we can feel

bit of a despondent, we can get bogged down literally and metaphorically. And so leadership is about, of course, then working out what is that next step I can and need to take. And always, it's always about actions. It's always about the next step forward. I think the other thing we often forget, of course, is, and this was a realization for me at my porphyry when I started at the Ministry of Health, I felt this weight of responsibility.

you know, gosh, I'm stepping into this huge role. Even without a pandemic, it's a big responsibility to be a public sector chief executive, to be a chief executive, to be the Director General of Health. But at the same time, as I listened to the kōrero in the room, as I observed the people who were there, I realized people want me to succeed. You know, they're there. Just as I could feel the weight, I could also feel them alongside me, you know, lifting me up. And sometimes as the swamp gets deep, we start to...

introspect too much and we forget if we look left and right actually there are people alongside us and they're looking to us you know and this is the key thing about optimism and hope is very often the only thing that that encourages us or gives us the inspiration to take that next step is to be able to create a sense of hope and others are looking to us to to do that particularly when when things are pretty are very challenging.

It's interesting that I'm rewinding to the work we did together through that period of the pandemic. And, you know, we'd have these sort of half day off sites with the exec team and you'd often show up coming from the one PM briefing or something like that. would be this you'd come into the room and my sense would be not, Ashley's here. Hallelujah. There was more of a sense of

Hmm.

Right now we're complete. We're we're a team. And going through my mind is this dichotomy of the the me and the we like there's this me that is the DG of health, as in you. And there's this kind of standalone because of that. But in that room, when I was with you over those number of sessions, there was a sense that you were one of.

Yes, you held the can, you carried the Yet the conversation was much more about us and we. I felt what it'd be interesting to hear what was it like for you in those those conversations, because I got a sense that they were there to not just lift you, but lift everyone in the room. And I that's incredible because I I work with a number of leadership teams and it's often.

not as as cohesive as that. Yeah, obviously, everyone has their own stuff to deal with. But there was such a strong sense of we in that room. What should take on what was that like for you working with that team? You know, and even, you know, your memories of walking into that room and we were having those sessions.

Yeah, it's an interesting one, Digby, because just going back to the comment that Ted Lasse commented, leadership's a team sport. And one of the other things Ted did, of course, was he brought the best out on each person. He worked out what was it that motivated that person, or what did they need to be their best self. And there's this notion, it's just an aside, and I'll come back to your question about kindness.

I was back in Oxford a month ago and supporting a course on healthcare leadership and I was discussing with someone actually kindness is different from niceness because kindness can also be telling someone something that they need to know about themselves or about the impact they're having on others. Of course you do it in a way that is actually providing them with an opportunity to take that on board and be supported and improve. But niceness is different. You can be nice to people.

But kindness is something else. And so I think about Ted, who was almost the epitome of kindness. Maybe he needed to be bit kinder to himself, actually. But sometimes that was giving people quite tough messages, but in a way that was empowering. The only appropriate use of power is to empower others. So back to your question, one of the things I'm forever grateful for is that I had a chance as Director General of Health to assemble a team into

to build that team for about 18 months before the pandemic came along. That is so that we knew enough about each other, including the things we didn't like about each other, but also just how we all fitted together as a team so we could lead as a team. So when the pandemic came along, I think we were as well placed as we might have been. And then we kept growing and learning through that.

But the thing I loved about coming into the room physically or metaphorically was that group was here. We all knew, you know, we all were there because we were deeply committed to being part of that leadership team. And, you know, just a little anecdote, but I remember one of the earlier sessions, I think it predated your involvement with the team, maybe one of our first ones. the end of the day, we went around and set up and we had to say, what's the one thing we needed from each other?

Yes.

And one of the ELT members said, actually, I don't think I need anything. Everything's good. we just went on. went. And afterwards, another member of the team came and said, what was that about? And I said, leave it with me. So I went and talked to that person. And they said, know, just checking in because you said you didn't need anything from your colleagues. And the person said, no, that's right. And I mean, it may not have been the right response from me, but I just said,

just make something up. Because your team members want to know. They want to know that you need them. And he looked at them and he said, I get it. OK. So it was that being authentic with each other. And I needed to do that at times, too. And I think last week we discussed a situation where

gold.

I was really struggling with something through the pandemic. We were doing a health restructure at the same time. I was struggling with it personally and professionally around the process and what was coming through it. And I knew it was affecting my behaviors. And I wasn't being as leaderful as I could have, have been. And I put it on the table with my executive team. said, look, I just want to say this. You will have seen.

I'm really struggling with this and I just want you to know, and thanks to the couple of you who have pointed out to me or have offered me some perspective on this, but I'm just letting you all know this and I'm working on it. So sorry if I'm not being the best self, but bear with. And that's important. So there's that sort of levelling thing, isn't it? The team is only as good as the components, but it's then how you lift it up. So it's the sum of more than the parts.

Yeah.

Where do you reckon, Ashley, that comes from that willingness to not be perfect in the eyes of others that, you know, I've got a friend, Georgia Merch in Melbourne, and she wrote a book called Flawsome, you know, that we're awesome, but we're flawed. Right. And there's there's something about accepting that that I love. And I'm hearing that in what you're saying. Right. Where does that come from? What shaped that that choice to be that way, do you reckon?

Well, I would say it's something that's evolved through my leadership career. I think I talk about leadership now as a lifelong journey in self-awareness. The more self-aware you are about what your strengths are, what your areas are that you don't really prefer, the things you don't like doing, how you impact on different people, how you react in different situations, then, of course, become the best leaders of those people who are in

incredibly self-aware that it's got various names, emotional intelligence and so on, but they're really aware of the impact, how they're presenting in different contexts and to different people. And that deliberate choice about that and being agile, because sometimes you need to display different leadership styles, different leadership, of course, different leadership behaviors.

But that authenticity is something that's I guess, evolved for me as a really important feature of who I am and who I am as a leader. And I joke about, well, we've talked a little bit about humility as an important. For me, that's a really important leadership quality and value. And we might come onto that a bit more. But there's nothing like having your performance review right on television at 1 o'clock every day to.

Yeah.

Yeah.

to actually teach you the importance of humility. You've got to be grounded. And just that realization, which I had to do when I talk about it, is actually people don't expect you to have all the answers, Alita. And they're quite relieved when you say, don't know. And especially if you follow that out with, well, what do you think? Yeah.

Absolutely. I reckon that's the bit. I've heard you say leadership is invitation to collective action. And I reckon through that, I don't know. Let's work it out together. There's the invitation, right? The collective action bit. What do you think? I remember working with a GM at a different government department and we were they were rolling out a whole new system was a global.

Yeah.

totally.

system and we were traveling around the world doing this work and we were in London and we were facilitating like a change leadership workshop and all of these leaders in the room were peppering her with questions about so when what's this going to do for my staff numbers and how's this going to work in terms of workflow? And she was just getting hammered. And she just said, put her hand up. She said, you know what? I don't know. That's up to us to work out together.

And you could have heard a pin drop in the room. And then, as you've kind of alluded to, there was a complete shift in energy and it became a collective effort rather than a almost like a tennis match of one having the answers and putting them back across the net. You know, there was this real powerful shift. I'll never forget it. Just through those three words. I don't know. And it's it's just I want to ask you a question. If you had to decide as a senior leader,

Yeah.

Would you, and you were faced with a moment of uncertainty, would you rather.

say, I don't know, and not come up with a decisive answer. So you kind of saying, I don't know if that was likely to lead to a better outcome, or would you rather say, here's the answer, even though you knew would probably lead to a worse outcome. I think we know the answer to that question.

Yeah, there's a range of responses you can give. And two lessons for me from the COVID experience. And again, that's sort of all that COVID was, was a kind of amplified, compressed, daily leadership kind of challenge. So there were two things. One was that I don't know doesn't under-

way to put it. Yeah.

trust. In fact, it can build trust because it's being on it because you know what underpins trustworthiness? Honesty, reliability and competence. And I didn't I hadn't seen that until I read something earlier this year, but if I reflect back on COVID, I guess that's what I was trying to project every day. Honesty, reliability, turning up at one o'clock every day, even though some days it was pretty hard to get out of the wreck, I'd have to say.

Yes.

And just because of the relentlessness and the stress. And then number three, that competence. So doing the prep, I'd spend two to three hours prepping every day. So that was an important lesson. The other important lesson was it's OK to, and this is actually something from the Oxford course in 2017, it's OK to think long thoughts. It's OK to say, actually based on what I know at the moment, this is my response.

Yes.

I'm going to go and see if we've got any further information on that. So it's OK to say bait, and it's OK to change your mind. That's the other thing. Now, sometimes you'll get a roasting for that. But only yesterday you were saying this, and now you're saying that. This happens through COVID around our advice around masks. But actually, it's OK to say we knew that. That was based on what we knew. We've got some new information, and therefore. And again, this is a sort of a characteristic.

characteristic, I think, of the humble leader is being able to front up there and give a good justification. And people are pretty discerning, actually. They will say, OK, we get it. Yeah, we're a bit grumpy because, you But in the media, we'll certainly ask plenty of questions. But it's OK, as I say, to think long thoughts and to change your mind if you get better information.

I love that. It's OK to think wrong thoughts. I really like that. Yeah. The answer to that question, that question is asked you a little bit. Would you rather be decisive or not? There was a bunch of research that I came across a few months ago, and I'll try and find the source and put in the notes that. When posed with that question, 90 % of senior leaders would rather appear to be decisive, even if it led to a worse outcome.

And I'm wondering what is the story that's going on in that 90 %? What are they telling themselves? And what are the pressures? What's the environment they're in that is having them go that way rather than the advice you've just.

Yeah, it's an interesting one, isn't it, because let's be clear, making decisions is an absolute fundamental leadership. No decision is a decision. But maybe people are not distinguishing between decision making and decisiveness. Decisiveness does not mean making decision immediately. It means making the best decision based on what you know.

You've got to do it. Yeah.

Indecisiveness in my mind is characterized by actually not being able to explain your decisions very well and not being able to say, my decision is this, I have listened, I have listened. Now, that's a really important thing. I have listened, I have sought advice, I have checked this information, and therefore this is what the decision at this point is. And being able to say, if you think there's something we've missed here, come and tell me.

Yes.

This may change if we get better information. Of course, through COVID, there was no particular plan. So we were, as the public service commissioner at the time, Peter Hughes would say, you we were learning it forward. leadership is always learning it forward. We're always improvising. know, improvisation is a key leadership behaviour. The thing about making a decision immediately being what is apparently decisive is it takes option, it can take options off the table.

Yep.

Absolutely.

it can actually undermine our ability to improvise. And it's OK to improvise. And that's different from making stuff up. Improvisation, to me, is responding to what's happening around you in a really agile way, which of course requires listening. actors who improvise really well are the ones who listen really well and observe really well and then are able to sort of

respond to what they're hearing and seeing really, really, and what appears to be in a cannerly, quick way. But actually, it's the quality of the listening and the kind of observation that it puts them in that position.

Yeah, there's something about you're in flow, right? There's a there's a you're part of your environment and you're responding to environment and you're acting on your environment. And that listening for is what's the environment telling me now? Where do we go next? And I think this is about a learning mindset, having curiosity rather than knowing here's the way forward. Here's what the Gantt chart says, because, you know, all of that stuff, you know, it's

Yeah.

Yep.

Yep.

Adam Grant would call it think like a scientist. It's the it's the have the experimentalist mindset, which again, it's not making stuff up recklessly. It's responding in a curious way. Right. It's the let's try this and see what happens as a result of that. Giving it our best thought, our best research, all the data we have available. We reckon we're going to try this, but we're not really 100 percent sure. We're going to see what happens. Right.

Yeah. Yeah, you're right, Big Ben. This was the other learning from COVID. And I mean, goodness me, this is a critical leadership behavior and a critical way for organizations to think about what they do and how they do it now. We were forced to be on this rapid learn, review, adjust cycle. Sorry, review, learn, adjust. And sometimes that cycle was less than 24 hours.

you know, because there might be a really important new piece of information. So, you know, classic example, we might give the one o'clock stand up, everything's good, everything's going fine. Four o'clock that afternoon, we get notified of a case. This is when we're on alert level one, say. And then suddenly, and then everything goes from zero to 100 miles an hour. And by seven o'clock that night, we've had to make a decision about putting the country into a lockdown again, or, you know, give advice on that. So.

That agility is really important. decision making is not a kind of a one-off process. It's not a one-off event. It's an ongoing process. so you've got to, and this is where I'm sort of quite interested in the military analogies, the old thing where your strategy is fantastic until the first contact. And that's why the best militaries are ones who empower their leaders all the way down.

Mmm.

to be able to respond in the moment to what they're seeing, to ensure they've got the resources, of course, to respond, or if they need different resources to be able to bring those to bear really quickly. But that ability to have a process where you're constantly observing, seeing what's happening in the moment, and responding, not reacting, but responding in a leadership way, a leaderful way, that's...

really critical, especially in a crisis situation.

I'm wondering if there must be a link, I reckon there is a link between your own sense of identity, self assuredness that allows you to be in service as a senior leader in particular, in that way to empower, to send a message to what we trust you to make the right calls. I'm thinking about that. That first part, though, it's like

to be good with who you are and be selfish, or even though you don't have all the answers and you know you can't control everything that's going to happen. How have you developed? Because I get that sense in you, you know, you know who you are. How what has helped you get to that point? You think that kind of in a compass is strong and clear and grounded?

Yeah, well, I've always, you know, maybe it's a lot about your upbringing too, it is for me about, you know, the things that shaped my values and shaped, you know, expectations my parents had and, you know, maybe my schooling had on.

Hmm.

on values and behaviors. And then a leadership career, and I've been, guess, in formal leadership roles in the workplace since even maybe very late 90s, early 2000s. Prior to that, as we chatted about last week, I did my territorial force training as an infantry officer. And I loved that. That was really impactful for me.

Tell us about that. In what way? What happened?

So, yeah, just to go to that, the territorial force training was really interesting because I was still at university and I'd actually taken a year off university, was medical school six years after three. thought I just need a break and I had a great year. turned 21. I learned a lot about myself.

Travel is a great eye opener and meeting people and especially traveling by myself. You really have to become resourceful. And then I decided, partly influenced perhaps by my father, had been a Territorial Force infantry officer through his career. And I really admired the fact he was able to juggle a career and do that. But I also, I guess, was looking for the challenge and the commissioning course, know, seven or eight weeks of commissioning as an

Absolutely.

officer is pretty is very tough. mean, they're putting you to the test in a very short period of time. We started with 42 people. ended 21 graduated at the end. So it's a pretty high attrition rate. And I found through that and I actually really embraced that challenge. I love the physical, the emotional, the mental challenge of, you know, turning the screws and just having to dig deep and almost that kind of the more they turned the screws, I felt the more more that

you know, the more I was thinking, no, I'm up for it, you know. Yeah. And so that was, and so I guess it's that, you know, it's that it was one of the things in my life where you realize just how deep your reserves can be and what you need to do yourself personally to be able to dig into those reserves. And I guess so when COVID came along, you know, I stayed in the territories for a number of years and I was...

That is cool. Yes.

world clearer by the time I took on leadership roles in the workplace. But when COVID came along, I knew from harking back, I wasn't as young as I was in the late 80s, but I knew I've been under pressure before physically, mentally, tired and still, and I've come through that. So that, in a way, gave me a level of reassurance, self reassurance, confidence that I could keep going, but also knowing when to step back is important.

Yeah. And, and I get the sense that, you know, there's David Epstein wrote a book called range and it's all about how generalists try in the specialized world. And part of his research suggests that we're better off particularly early in our lives, getting a range of exposure to different things that will test us in different ways. So then when we, as we get older, we can draw on all of those myriad of experiences that have tested us to go, all right, well, I've done this before.

and

not in that context, but in this context. I know that's the same. It's the same experience, the same challenge, really. And that stands in good stead. know, and it's I love how you talk about, you know, it's physical, it's emotional, it's mental. It's all of those things being tested early on. can see how that would really set you up. I want to take a bit of a left turn. When we had a beer last week, we were both it was pretty hot off the back of the US election results.

Yeah.

Okay.

So we're recording this in mid November, 2024. And we're probably what a week or so down, week and a half down since those results were announced. And we were reflecting on the sort of leadership that is emerging through elections, not just the US one, but we're seeing it more globally. What do you reckon is going on? Because the leadership we've been talking about in our conversation now is quite different to what

we're seeing embodied in some of those sorts of leaders. What do you reckon is happening?

Yeah, well, guess most people outside the US asking themselves that question, it's what's happening or how could this happen? look, I think that you can analyze, there are many people who will describe what's the context, what's the background, how is this built to this point? But I think one of the fundamental things we see happening here is

Ha

that the leader, and you know, it's a classic, the classic populist leader, has, and they're usually men, and they're usually, I call them the big man leader, they've got simple solutions to complex problems. And look, humans, as humans, we don't deal with complexity that well, actually. So a nice simple solution that sounds, you know, kind of, you know, on the face of it, credible, pretty straightforward, kind of.

sometimes because these people, politicians like this, they prey on people's and if it's providing us with a sense of stability in an increasingly vicar world and where the pace is...

Yeah.

is increasing and whether this group of people who feel they're being left behind that you can look at the history of it. The question I asked myself and we sort of talked about this was how is it that these people end up, people like myself and yourself who subscribe to the absolute, you know, the values driven, authentic, honest, humble leader, how is it that these people who are right at the other end of that spectrum?

end up in these positions, is this the way of the future? For my part, I don't think so. And they're not the leaders that I admire. And for most people, they don't look at these people and think, I'd like my children to behave like that. They're not the of behaviors that we necessarily expect of our children. And so there's this kind of, I don't know, this...

interesting dynamic that's happening here, isn't it? From a political perspective, and it's usually in the political arena, but not always, but that's where we're seeing it play out most, because it's most obvious to us as these people provide a sense of, or an assurance of, or a guarantee of some sort of stability in a world that doesn't feel that stable.

Yeah.

It's my brain sparking and I'm coming back to the word you used earlier, which is agency. And if we don't have a sense of agency, and I suspect in a world where we have growing income inequality, that for many, many, many people, the sense of agency is pretty small. And maybe there's a trade that we're making subconsciously that, well, big man leader, you have the agency.

Yeah.

And because I don't. So save me or help us or something like that. I mean, that might be a bit simplistic, right? Conscious of that. there's a read a book by a fellow called John Alexander called Citizens. And I heard him talk a month or two ago and his call is we need to shift from a consumer society to a citizen society. And the idea being when we are in a consumer society.

The leaders are there to serve our needs. So we are there. The leaders are going to support us to get what we need as consumers, right? That we're going to give us a company that's making goods. We need to make sure those goods get to us because we're consumers and, you know, they need to be a good price. And so everything's oriented around that. His call, John Alexander's call is we need to shift that to have people having a lot more involvement in what happens in society.

and his view that we need to be citizens and the leadership we need is a facilitative leadership. I call it host leadership, which is about the real quality of leadership. And you've talked about it is to bring people together to bring out their best to collectively and individually. And our role as a host is to create the conditions for that to happen. And when I heard him talk, it just was like ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. We're a long way from that, I think.

Yeah.

Yeah, it feels like we are not everywhere and not in every domain. so again, being optimistic, I am hopeful that this will pass, you know. The key point here is if you look at, and COVID is a great example here, the countries that did well were not the countries that had big man leaders. fact, almost to a place, did the worst. The problem with the big man leader is they don't listen.

feels like we are.

Hmm.

Absolutely.

They don't engage. They don't build teams. They don't... And you can see this with Trump, he's come into his second presidency. Virtually every person who worked closely with him in his last presidency has come out publicly and said how unsuitable he is to be the president. And you can remember the rapid turnover of people in these roles close to him. And I have no doubt that the same thing will happen this time because...

you know, there's not a dynamic that is looking to create a high performing team. It'll be a dog-eat-dog type environment. The people you need in those, in these in crisis situations or in the VUCA world we've got now are the leaders who do listen, who do engage the host leader. And so I have great confidence that that still is the way to go. And two people I've been quite inspired by.

over the last year or so. is Baroness Cathy Ashton from the UK, and she's written a book called And Then What. Now, she was one of the top European diplomats, British originally, obviously, with a Baroness title, but she, behind the scenes, helped facilitate negotiations around Kosovo, some of the negotiations with Iran about winding back their nuclear program.

And this line, and then what, was one that she would often put to people when they were saying, well, this, this, this, and this. And then she'd say, well, and then what? Behind the scenes, quiet, absolutely impactful leadership. No one would know who she is. It's a great reader. She was on a podcast, sorry, rival podcast, but different country leading, which Alison came to. Yeah.

Leading one of my favorites. Yep. Yep. Rest is politics leading. Brilliant. Brilliant. Yes.

Alistair Campbell and Rory Stewart. But one I was listening to this morning on the plane coming down from Auckland, George Mitchell, former US Senator, 92. He facilitated the Good Friday negotiations in Ireland, nominated by Bill Clinton and Tony Blair. And he made a lovely comment. said, the best compliment I got was from one of the leaders of one of the many groups that were part of that negotiation. He said,

George listened us to an agreement. He listened us to an agreement, you know. And that was his big thing, actually. And so you look, know, for those of us who are old enough to know a bit about the troubles in Northern Ireland and for many years thought there was absolutely, it was intractable and there was no hope of peace there. yet, 25 years ago, you the Good Friday Accords were signed.

And George Mitchell was someone who played a key role totally behind the scenes. But I just love that notion of actually who is the effective leader who facilitated an amazing agreement there. It was the leader who listened. That was a superpower.

Yeah.

That is so cool. It, you know, Ireland, I reckon there's something going on there. The citizens assembly stuff that's happened there more recently. You know, that's an example of what John John Alexander's citizens. He references that he also actually references Taiwan during Covid, right? They were one of the most effective countries given. Yeah. And it was the opposite of Big Man. So.

Totally.

Totally, yeah. And the same here in Aotearoa and in many other countries, know, it was the leaders who did listen, who took advice, who were agile, who were prepared to constantly review, who fronted up if things didn't go as they should have. Those were the countries that tended to do the best.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

You know, it's the ecosystem over the ego system, isn't it? Really? It's the. Yeah. Tell us.

Yeah, totally. Yeah, we've talked about ego last week in the lovely article I love from the Harvard Business Review. The title is Ego is the Enemy of Good Leadership. And you can find it. It's online, I think, 2017 or 18. And there's a lovely line in there. I won't be quoting it exactly, but as we become more prominent or powerful as a leader, people tend to be more attentive towards us.

that they challenge us less, they laugh more at our jokes. It's really interesting observations, this all tickles the ego. But the real downside is the risk is of course then we lose the humility and also people stop providing us with feedback. So therefore we don't have that feedback loop which allows us to monitor the impact we are having on others.

And that's that's part of the curiosity, right? Isn't it like to keep learning? How do you how do you personally apply that that message or those lessons from that article?

Yeah.

Yeah, well, there are two things to that. One is, course, and this is a balance, just that constant self-review and reflection is just a key leadership behavior. Of course, it can't go too far because sometimes we're our worst critics. We spend so much time trying to set and guess ourselves up. So I, for example, have never gone back to look at any of those. I never did go back and look at any of my TV performances.

Yeah, yep, I know that.

would tell me if I could have, should have done something different in a nice gentle way. any of those sort of standards.

Ha

Not even the the spread your legs one, just for a bit of a laugh. Well, that wasn't you. was that was.

Well, there were, yeah, there was hipkins, but I think my eyebrow raise was just the thing that went viral from that as much as think. But you know, so there's that self-reflection. But also, of course, and we talked about this, know, how do you lock in feedback mechanisms? And this can be really hard when you're in a chief executive type role. need, you know, a coach is a really good thing.

That's enough.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

talked about, alluded to that earlier on. from the first day I started as the chief executive in the Hutt Valley District Health Board, I got a coach I would meet with every four to six weeks and saw me right through while I was DG, same person. And just that getting together. And you just want that kind of friendly, but also slightly that person to just challenge you a bit. That have you thought of or helping you with your reflection.

And also you really want to try and have people around you, empower people around you to provide feedback. Alert you to things that you may not be aware of. had a great EA in the ministry who was great, you know, good on that, because one of the downsides of being a pathological optimist is you're not as aware of when others around you are doing it tough and or small, you know.

they might be behaving differently around you than they are around their colleagues. So you need the people who will come to you and say, I think you just need to be aware of X and you need to have a word with that person. maybe next time you're going away, maybe think of just sharing the, know, putting someone else in as acting director general just to share it around. So really just useful things that might not cross your mind. So having those trusted people who can provide you feedback.

that feedback and suggestions, right? There's a feed forward in that too, as Marshall Goldsmith would say, right? You know, some feed forward. How about this idea? What about have you thought about that? And so they're kind of taking some of the load for you, aren't they? Like they're doing some of the thinking for you and some of the seeing and listening for you too, right? Yeah, yeah.

you

That's right, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And that lovely phrase I've learned more recently from my wife who's doing a counselling degree, the lovely, I wonder, I wonder. It's so, you know, it's hard to react to, but know, someone takes it you say, I wonder if, you know, just wonder another way to think about this. Yeah.

Yeah.

I get called out on that all the time by people saying, there you go with your wondering again. And I think what I'm trying to do is invite others into a conversation that's safe. You know, it's not a here's my idea. What do you think? It's like, I'm just wondering about this. Can we kick it around? And I think I say it more than more than I realize. But that's my intent is to just provide a space for exploration as opposed to.

Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yep.

driving, we can get to driving and decisions and all that, but we need to kick around ideas first.

Totally, and as you say, Digby, it's opening up as a place for a conversation rather than saying something that people might react to. So I'm all for it. You keep wondering, mate, keep wondering.

Yeah, totally. Yeah.

Yeah, I love to use the word wonder and so we need a balance of confidence and wonder. It's right. Confidence. We know stuff, but wonder and stuff we don't know. You know, I think it's a good balance. Hey, just shifting to today. How are you spending your time now for people who might not know how you're spending your time?

Yeah, well, you know, in the time since I finished as DG in mid 2022, I took some time off, which was very important, and that was just resetting, kind of reconnecting with my wife a little bit, just decompressing, which was fantastic. I then had a role at the University of Auckland. They offered me a role there, and I've been doing that for about the last two years. And that's been interesting. I mean, it was it was a whole new

environment for me. It was a new system. I know the health system really well. I know the public service really well. I know the political economy. I know the players, the stakeholders. I've got the relationships. I know how decisions are made. I know if you press the balloon here, what will happen over here? had, you know, going to the university, none of that. And it was all new. So it was this feeling of just feeling a little bit out of my depth, a bit of imposter syndrome. You know, I'm a professor without a PhD. So

Yeah.

That and some of as we as you mentioned earlier on some of what we do is transferable into new settings. But this was a you know without having that deep knowledge of how the system how this kind of new ecosystem worked. I felt a little bit out of my depth there so that was.

Why did you say yes to that? what was the driver for going there and doing that?

Yeah, well, it was one of the options I'd been considering. there were two things I was interested in. One was sort of supporting the next generation of health leaders. And I thought the university had a role to play there. And certainly, say, at Auckland, there's a master's in health leadership. I thought I could develop up. I'm still involved in developing up some.

some more work there. And then there was an offer to kind of try and help. I'm really interested in the whole idea of impact. And the university was interested in setting up an initiative of some kind to help project the university's work, make it more impactful, more connected to the community. What I would call a sort of a being a forward leader and actually being a place that convenes and facilitates the conversations that help us take that forward view.

Yeah.

So that was the attraction there and that was part-time. I had some other work I was doing with WHO. More recently I've started as interim chief executive at ESR, which is the Crown Research Institute, and I've wound back the academic work in the meantime or the university role. And I mean here's the interesting thing, that we talked about this last week, but suddenly I realized this is my swim lane. You know, I actually love being in an organization that's delivering stuff surrounded by people.

Yeah.

smart people, because there's plenty of those at the university, but just where the shape and the organisational rhythm is much more, I guess, one I'm comfortable with, but also that opportunity, seeing opportunities for collective leadership and being able to work with people to create a culture that then can really lift that organisation at a time when there's a lot of disruption happening in the research system, science and research system.

Yes.

and of course in the public service as well.

You know, there's a couple of reflections on what you just shared is one you came out of a huge heat experience with the ministry, you know, and those few years you took a little bit time off and you threw yourself back into an uncomfortable situation with the university. And I've got a sense it was conviction over comfort that drove you there. It's like this matters. And so the conviction sort of overcame any sense of discomfort. And it also gives

talking about ESR and your role there, feels like you're going, this is where I can use my superpowers. This is where I can have some significant impact from all my years of experience in a way that unlike the university, there's a, know this game. I know how to play here. I know how to lead in this way. And I reckon we must all get to that point where we go, I know I've got enough years of experience now. I can do some really good work here. And I get the sense just

as you've been sharing that that's where you're at.

Yeah, it's about, I mean, it's not the health system per se. It's a science organization. But I guess it's as you say, I really feel I can add some value.

I've because I feel more comfortable in the kind of how decision I understand how decisions are made. It's working with the board. It's all things I've sort of done before. Then I can because that's kind of more second nature, then I can really apply myself to the opportunities to the sort of the key leadership functions around ensuring direction, generating energy, looking for opportunities, making connections, developing.

Yeah.

Yes.

wider partnerships, the things that I've sort of, I guess, made a career out of the, you know, what does this mean and then what next.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's really awesome to see it. So, you know, I knew what you were doing, but just to hear you talk about the orientation you have to it, it's it's like it makes complete sense that you're doing this work now. It's great. Now, as as we start to wind things up, I want to reflect on we've referred to the beer we had last Friday and to set the scene for listeners, we are in a brewery in Petone.

But Tony is a suburb of Wellington and, you know, it's a this brewery down this kind of not a very busy street. We got there. There's a handful of people in the pub. And we, you know, a couple of heads turned as we walked in, as they would always do with you. there's Ashley Bloomfield, right? And we went to the bar and we ordered a couple of beers and the the barman said he gave us our beers and he said.

Yeah.

They're on the house. And he said to you, you know, I promised myself if I ever met you that I'd buy you a beer. So here you go. And I was luckily the kind of like the beneficiary of that as well. thank you. But there was this, you know, then there's a few people came up and had selfies as we were having a beer. And it just made me think about, you know, you're a bit of a man of the people, right? You know, you it was it was just a place we were having a beer and

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Clearly there's a ripple effect from who you are. And I guess my question is, what is the hope that you might hold for what that ripple effect does for people? If that makes sense as a question.

Yeah, does, Dick Behan. Yeah, it was a lovely moment, it was in its long time since I had a stranger buy me a beer. But I get, you know, even just today, travelling, a couple of people came up to have a chat and say thank you and one or two wanted a photo. I guess what it says to me, Dick Behan, is back to our conversation here about the contrast between the humble and the hubristic leader. My leadership style, I would

Hmm.

suggest is not, you know, I'm not a hubristic leader and I couldn't be through COVID, you know. But it resonated with people and it gives me a lot of hope that actually people do connect with that style of leadership because it doesn't mean you're not courageous and tough, you know. People saw resilience and toughness getting up, you know, in front of the every day of over 300 times. They saw the day in the day out the relentlessness of it.

the turning up, the reliability. They saw me even come out of rugby retirement and play with a couple of ex-all boys, know, so I can run around a rugby field. So it's that thing that actually courage and strength and decisiveness are not, can coexist with kindness and humility and integrity and honesty. And actually many people, many, many people, most people I would say.

Yes

both value that and respect it when they see it. And I guess, you know, the thing for me is I love the interactions, only in the sense that every single one of them gives me, you know, just gives me a lot of heart and a lot of hope that even now, and because online, it's a bit the opposite. And I tend to ignore that. But face to face, most days, pretty much every day, people will come up to me, strangers from a walk of life, walks of life, just to...

Yeah.

to express some gratitude, to say thanks, even if they didn't agree with everything we did. It's the way, I guess, the way we went about it. And so they remember how we made them feel, how they felt in that moment of great interpretation of fear of anxiety.

Yeah. Yes.

And there's the calmness coming through again, being the rock in the storm. Right. And you've only made I like to think that because of that reminder for them of what a leader can be, that the knock on effect can be that they go and carry a bit of that forward. You know, for their leading, you know, with a small family, whatever it might be. Right. There's a that carries on.

Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. It's leading with kindness. I talk about kindness as a meta value. Great book. Rutger Bregman, Humankind, a Hopeful History. And he really emphasizes this point about that's what distinguishes us as humans. was our ability to move beyond our immediate survival, looking after our own kith and kin.

Yeah.

Yes.

to actually start to reach out to build community through doing things for each other, even often without any expectation of reciprocity. Kindness, and here's the thing, kindness is infectious, actually. And I have this little mantra in my mind, and sometimes it's not that convenient when someone comes up and I'm sure my wife gets a bit irritated at times, although she's very patient. But every person, every time, every person, every time, every interaction is important.

Yeah.

And just the word can be important. It may be the most important interaction that person has that day, that week, that year, and sometimes even in their lifetime.

That's beautiful. I have a similar saying. You cannot not impact. And it's you know, you will always have an impact whether you know it or not, whether you like it or not. And certainly my interaction with you every time has been the same way. I remember the first time we met was at a People Leader Forum where I think all of the people leaders from the ministry were there. You were in the front table and you were smiling the whole way through.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, Marai, you might remember that time at Pipeteer and I remember your energy giving me a damn good listening to I felt like you were you you you came across as very present and very engaged and and smiling. I remember your smile and you know that I suspect you weren't thinking every person every time it just as who you are. You know, there was this I'm engaged, I'm curious, I'm interested, I'm listening.

Hmm.

And of course, that lifted my energy. Right. It helped me keep moving. And I was, to be honest, pretty nervous in front of all of these folks. And your way of being in the room, you were one of a couple hundred people. It made a big difference. Yeah. So thank you.

Hmm.

Yeah. Yeah, thanks, mate. That's nice. Appreciate the feedback on that. And yeah, that's right. Everything we do, especially as a leader, has been watched. And it's impactful. And yeah, I think if there's one leadership behavior that's my one, that's a constant work on us, you can't listen enough. know, listening is an absolute superpower. And again, back to George Mitchell, you know, he listened to the parties to an agreement.

The Good Friday Agreement is just so powerful, isn't it?

That is so cool.

It's you've inspired me to go and check that out. That is really inspiring. And the question I always love to finish on is what have you learned or at least have been reminded of during our conversation today?

Yeah, thanks. And it's been a great kōrero and a great discussion. I guess to go back to the start, Te Laso. the thing that, I mean, yes, he resonated for me because of his positivity and his optimism. But here's the thing he was doing. He was attentive to each and every person and doing.

what he was working out what each person needed to be their best self. And in doing so, of course, then you that's part of your own self-awareness. What do I need to do to be my best self? So it's kind of a reminder, Ted Leysay is a reminder that our job as leaders is to, of course, be our best self and to be constantly learning, you know, that ongoing lifelong journey in self-awareness, but also

It's about action, it's about collective action, it's about getting stuff done and the best way to do that, the best way to kind of fulfil that team effort that is leadership is to get the best out of everybody. So taking the time to understand people and what it is they need to be their best self and then being their best self, they will be the best leader they can be.

The knock-on effect continues. Beautiful. Thank you. What a brilliant conversation. It's you know, it's a Friday afternoon. I'm feeling lifted going into the weekend and it's been fabulous. It's been brilliant. Thanks, Ashley. See you soon.

Good man, me too, thanks mate.

Kia ora.