Transcripts
Hi, welcome to the Close The Loop podcast.
Speaker:I'm your host, Kevin Dieny.
Speaker:And today we're going to be talking about onboarding new employees.
Speaker:I'm joined by my cohost Ronn burner.
Speaker:He's back with us today.
Speaker:So welcome Ronn.
Speaker:Thank you, Kevin.
Speaker:Happy to be back.
Speaker:So we're going to be talking about onboarding new employees, because
Speaker:it's actually something that we've heard from our feedback.
Speaker:From asking our listeners, asking people, what would you like to hear about?
Speaker:And one of those topics was hiring, onboarding, and so I've put together
Speaker:this topic, we're going to be diving into the onboarding part.
Speaker:We've talked in the past about hiring, and we've touched a little
Speaker:bit about onboarding, but now we are going to go a little bit more into
Speaker:focusing this entire episode on how to successfully onboard new employees.
Speaker:So you've hired somebody, you spent a lot of time, I've heard
Speaker:a lot of people say hiring sucks.
Speaker:Hiring is terrible.
Speaker:Hiring is just, uh, uncomfortable, uh, like tedious thing.
Speaker:And once it's over, it's like, oh, I can get back to, I could
Speaker:take that time I was spending, hiring and put in another things.
Speaker:So you've spent a ton of resources, trying to get someone in.
Speaker:And now you need to train them, take that hired person, and give them the
Speaker:tools, the education, the knowledge download that they need to be successful
Speaker:in whatever role you hired them for.
Speaker:And there's quite a lot of roles in quite a lot of different formats for
Speaker:this and a lot of different industries.
Speaker:So, uh, Ronn and I have an interesting background of experience.
Speaker:So we'll be, we'll be jumping into that and I guess.
Speaker:Uh, question to throw it over to you, Ronn is why do, why do companies bother
Speaker:doing the onboarding for new employees?
Speaker:I mean, I think it's a transition because usually.
Speaker:When you're hiring, there's a need for them, right?
Speaker:So the people that are already there are wearing multiple hats and doing things
Speaker:which can be a little bit disjointed or a little bit discombobulating.
Speaker:Even for them that are there, whose role is this technically is
Speaker:not my, we need another person.
Speaker:So it's confusing for the people that have been there along for
Speaker:the whole ride to begin with.
Speaker:So when somebody new comes on, you really want to cater to their, to the
Speaker:specific role that they're going to be in.
Speaker:So you want to catch them up as best as you can.
Speaker:Just to try to get them somewhere near the knowledge base that you're at on where
Speaker:something currently is so that they can actually kind of apply their experience.
Speaker:Ideally you're hiring them in a very specific area of need, and they're
Speaker:already an expert, so to speak our subject matter expert in that area.
Speaker:So when they come on board and during the process of explaining
Speaker:to them and catching them up.
Speaker:They're seeing things and hopefully learning things.
Speaker:And immediately identifying areas where, okay, I can improve
Speaker:on this or I can step right in.
Speaker:But I will say that is so much easier said than done.
Speaker:Yeah, so what do you think if a company, let's say there's two a
Speaker:companies says two different things.
Speaker:So company A says, okay, you're on our typical onboarding
Speaker:process is about six months.
Speaker:And then company B says, all right, you know, day one, you're going
Speaker:to go, you're expected to perform.
Speaker:So those are two drastically different onboarding lengths.
Speaker:So what do you think of about those two possibilities?
Speaker:Well, as the person being hired and stepping into the role.
Speaker:During the interview, you're always, or not always, but typically you're
Speaker:like, yeah, I'm ready to go throw me into the fire kind of a thing.
Speaker:I find, even with my experience and education and quote unquote
Speaker:subject matter expert in marketing automation in gen strategy in general,
Speaker:even that, with that background.
Speaker:I'm terrified.
Speaker:I don't like that.
Speaker:I thought I did, but the getting thrown into the fire situation
Speaker:because there's so many moving parts.
Speaker:And every company is different, especially if you're talking like we're
Speaker:talking specifically about marketing.
Speaker:And there are very, very different philosophies and even terminology,
Speaker:you hear contacts and leads and prospects and the funnel.
Speaker:Everything is all.
Speaker:You need to learn how the organization is doing what they're doing.
Speaker:You need to relearn the language because they may be using....
Speaker:The definitions differently than the way you've known them.
Speaker:So getting thrown into the fire of marketing is something
Speaker:that I am absolutely opposed to these days after experience.
Speaker:I've recently onboarded for a major company, very large Kaiser and they all
Speaker:have an extensive onboarding process.
Speaker:Like to the point of almost crawling, even the HR took three weeks, you know.
Speaker:HR being there, just watching videos and stuff.
Speaker:But the, as far as the learning goes, you get set up with people that are in
Speaker:departments that you're going to work with just as an, as an introductory level.
Speaker:And then just being a fly on the wall for months.
Speaker:Like there, I wasn't asked to do anything for months because I was a
Speaker:fly on the wall to learn basically.
Speaker:And even with that, it was difficult because it's so many, I mean, we're
Speaker:talking our vendor list alone is, you know, five pages of, of just marketing
Speaker:stack, just the marketing stack.
Speaker:So getting your credentials and getting those things is it's it's work.
Speaker:Yeah, it's like day one.
Speaker:It's like, here's a manual, a an encyclopedia collection of, of everything
Speaker:you need to know about this company.
Speaker:That, being handed a manual.
Speaker:It, I would say is one of my least favorite ways of being onboarded
Speaker:because, oh, I mean, there could be lots of contexts in the manual,
Speaker:but it's just not exciting.
Speaker:Not it's, it feels like you may may read through this whole book and
Speaker:then you're like in school and you're going to be quizzed on, you know,
Speaker:what one sentence said and it kind of does feel scary to have that.
Speaker:Okay, here's the manual, go get them.
Speaker:Instead of, okay, here's the manual as like a backup reference, 'cause,
Speaker:you know, you may not always have access to ask somebody a question.
Speaker:And you may just need to have this information somewhere.
Speaker:These manuals are like PDFs now, and then there are all the opposite side of that
Speaker:spectrum is like, there's no manual for this, everything you're going to learn.
Speaker:You either take your knowledge, you have going at coming in, and then you're
Speaker:going to have to digest everything that I tell you, or that you learn on the job,
Speaker:which is a lot more like in the fire.
Speaker:I like to think of it as, and there's a lot of formats for onboarding.
Speaker:But I like to think of a pretty good format being that you start out with
Speaker:learning about the company's resources.
Speaker:That means getting to know your team, people, right.
Speaker:You know what, you know, your setup's going to be your computer or PC or Mac.
Speaker:Sometimes that throws people off.
Speaker:Like email formats they're used to scheduling, like,
Speaker:how do you schedule meetings?
Speaker:How do you get in touch with people?
Speaker:Some companies have slack, some people have Microsoft teams or something else.
Speaker:And so I look at that as like the resources to get, to know what resources
Speaker:you have, who you have to ask and who you have to talk to before, like going
Speaker:full into the deep end right away.
Speaker:Seems a little daunting, but some, some industries, I think
Speaker:it has to work way, right.
Speaker:Have you ever had, do you have any experience where you felt
Speaker:like you were thrown in the deep end, right off from the beginning?
Speaker:Uh, I would say two areas, I've worked in have been.
Speaker:My undergrad is, is exercise, physiology, kinesiology.
Speaker:And when I stepped into run health clubs, I mean, I needed
Speaker:to know about the human body.
Speaker:I needed to know how to treat.
Speaker:I needed to know how to help people, whether it be safety,
Speaker:injury, CPR, all of these things.
Speaker:So you're on the floor and you're working one-on-one with individuals,
Speaker:for speed and acceleration programs or whatever their needs are.
Speaker:Regardless of age and athletic ability.
Speaker:Everybody, is unique in that way.
Speaker:You're not learning on the job for that.
Speaker:They want, I mean, you're not a doctor of course, by any stretch, but at the same
Speaker:time you are, you have other people's health and wellbeing in your own hands.
Speaker:So you don't want to have them doing things that are unsafe,
Speaker:that that are just not smart.
Speaker:That was one element.
Speaker:And I would say another one.
Speaker:I also worked in the NFL in research, and as a producer and coming from
Speaker:the entertainment background as well.
Speaker:You really don't go there to learn.
Speaker:You should know entertainment very well.
Speaker:And you should be as well, knowledgeable as you can, about the sport about
Speaker:NFL, but everything that's going on.
Speaker:There's no time to learn, it's kinda, you're thrown into
Speaker:the fire and those, those two specifically, but they made sense.
Speaker:And there was little fear in either one of those situations because of.
Speaker:I probably, I probably was overconfident in both of those as a
Speaker:matter of fact saying, Hey, this is X.
Speaker:This is all at that time in my life is like, this is all I know.
Speaker:So of course I could do it all.
Speaker:And then as we get older now in marketing is so many years in working
Speaker:and getting thrown into the fire.
Speaker:Like I alluded to, it's like, okay, this let's let's pump the brakes.
Speaker:And I keep it simple in my mind.
Speaker:I always say goal action obstacles.
Speaker:So you were talking about the manual, uh, and talking about reading.
Speaker:I agree with you, the manual.
Speaker:It's not that it's daunting, but you don't know what you're, you're just reading it.
Speaker:And as you're reading it, everything makes perfect sense to you.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:But you're not applying it.
Speaker:And that's where things become more, like the resources you're using
Speaker:to solve these problems, are used.
Speaker:And you're finding out where the resources are to solve them and you're applying it.
Speaker:And you're actually thinking, because I can tell you that when I
Speaker:was going through some of the....
Speaker:I'm a Marketo automation user.
Speaker:And when Kaiser was going through them, all the marketing
Speaker:automations that they have in place.
Speaker:So the person that had built them, the subject matter expert prior to
Speaker:my arrival is walking me through them and saying, this is why we
Speaker:did what we did, what we did.
Speaker:And of course.
Speaker:If they're robust, they're sophisticated.
Speaker:I'm like, well, yeah, it makes perfect sense.
Speaker:It makes perfect sense.
Speaker:That's a far cry from completely reading it and understanding it because I
Speaker:don't, I'm not applying anything, right.
Speaker:So now if I need to go build some very sophisticated segmented, um,
Speaker:sort of dynamic program, now, all of a sudden it's like, okay, this is,
Speaker:I, I need to understand the fields.
Speaker:I need to understand that what success looks like.
Speaker:So to me, every question, no matter how big or small is goal, action to,
Speaker:to achieve that goal, an obstacle preventing you from getting to that goal.
Speaker:Work in that kind of mentality.
Speaker:So it's like I needed the goal.
Speaker:I needed the obstacle to overcome.
Speaker:And the actions I'm going to take.
Speaker:What is your experience?
Speaker:Especially with onboarding, like from the Y like you T my knowing you,
Speaker:you're kind of the subject matter expert that typically comes in and
Speaker:implements, like what you do, right.
Speaker:Rather than you learning what the company does.
Speaker:And you just kind of fallen in line with that.
Speaker:You're more, you're gonna have a little bit more direction as you're bringing two
Speaker:organizations, typically, is that right?
Speaker:Yes, I have experienced from like a lot of things, sometimes not even in marketing,
Speaker:but the experiences where I jumped into the fire or were closer to like when I
Speaker:first started doing jobs and doing work.
Speaker:And a lot of times it was like, okay, you know how to sweep a floor?
Speaker:Go!?
Speaker:You know how to do this go, you know how to, you know, like I remember the first
Speaker:time I was, I was working with a register.
Speaker:Taking cash and stuff.
Speaker:I remember thinking, like I had this thought like, wow, this
Speaker:is a lot of trust placed in me.
Speaker:Cause there's a lot of money in here.
Speaker:I mean, relative to me at the time, I'm just like a young kid.
Speaker:I remember thinking there's a lot of money in here.
Speaker:A lot of trust for not training me, like how to do this, well.
Speaker:I worked for El Pollo Loco at the time they, they made it, so that
Speaker:look, you just work the register.
Speaker:And then when it reaches a certain amount, someone else will
Speaker:come in and take it from you.
Speaker:And when you need money, you ask and then someone else will ring your register.
Speaker:I didn't have to do everything.
Speaker:So they took away all the hard parts about the job, so that I think they could
Speaker:hire people who needed to be trusted less, that needed a whole lot less skill
Speaker:because all they have to do is talk to people and press the button on the screen.
Speaker:They didn't have to be responsible for making sure every
Speaker:penny matched and everything.
Speaker:Later, like the longer I was there, the more they're like, okay, now
Speaker:you've got to make sure the money in your register is accurate.
Speaker:Now you're going to make sure at the end, that matches up
Speaker:with the total on the screen.
Speaker:And then now you're going to be working at totally different area.
Speaker:So, I could see how they evolve the skills over time and gave
Speaker:me more and more responsibility.
Speaker:But there's another format that I'm not super familiar with, but I have
Speaker:a lot of family and friends who do stuff and that's like apprenticeship.
Speaker:So that's a style of onboarding where it's like, look, you're kind of jumping in
Speaker:the deep end, but I'll be there with you.
Speaker:I'm jumping in with you.
Speaker:Like that, that might be the step up from jumping into the deep end and
Speaker:getting right into the fire right off the bat is someone being like, look,
Speaker:I've been doing this for a long time.
Speaker:Eventually you'll be able to do it on your own, like plumbers, electricians.
Speaker:A lot of times they have this format.
Speaker:Carpenters, welding will do this.
Speaker:And so you, you jump in and they guide you, walk you.
Speaker:They may give you little tasks, but over time you're given,
Speaker:you're given more skills, more.
Speaker:Responsibility, larger projects, less of them watching every little thing you do.
Speaker:Less micromanagement because I think almost everyone strays away
Speaker:from intense micromanagement.
Speaker:Cause they, they want the ability to see how they're doing without being
Speaker:critiqued to every second of it.
Speaker:You know what they're doing?
Speaker:So I think apprenticeship is probably that next step up of an onboarding format
Speaker:where it's not a hundred percent deep end.
Speaker:Have you ever experienced an apprenticeship?
Speaker:I have in, I guess, if you want to call an internship and an apprenticeship, because
Speaker:I had it, my internship for my undergrad.
Speaker:I had to, I had to work a year in a hospital.
Speaker:And I chose cardiac patients, cause I knew I was going to be working with athletes
Speaker:when I, for a career, at that time.
Speaker:So I specifically chose cardiac.
Speaker:I love older people because there's a whole story.
Speaker:The elderly have amazing stories that we don't know anything about, right.
Speaker:We just assume they're old people.
Speaker:Well, there, they had, they were once 20 years old as well,
Speaker:and I loved working with them.
Speaker:And of course, you know, I'm what, 22 years old or however
Speaker:old you are senior in college.
Speaker:Yeah, I was definitely not thrown to the wolves in that setting, right.
Speaker:There's a, what I would consider an apprenticeship.
Speaker:Because I'm with a nurse at all times, and they're walking me through every step
Speaker:of the way of what their day looks like.
Speaker:It's the resilience in, in old men who have open-heart surgery
Speaker:and they need to be up and walking within a day, think about that.
Speaker:That's insanity.
Speaker:So I'm viewing surgeries, apprenticeship, right?
Speaker:I'm just sitting there.
Speaker:They're telling me what they're doing through glass.
Speaker:I'm not in the room, but it's through glass and I'm sitting there
Speaker:observing and their sawing open a chest and, and doing whatever.
Speaker:Oh, it's insane.
Speaker:And they're doing whatever they're doing, but I'm being kind of talked
Speaker:through it a little bit under the breath.
Speaker:While the doctors are doing this, we're talking about movies, it's insane.
Speaker:It's the most craziest experience I've ever had in my life.
Speaker:Like that's how casual doctors are knowing what they're doing.
Speaker:So anyway, they would go into recovery post op obviously.
Speaker:Certainly needed lots of rest and they were kind of out on
Speaker:anesthesia for most of them a day.
Speaker:But once they're off that next day.
Speaker:Literally, we stand them up and walk them.
Speaker:And of course they weren't going to leave that all in my hands.
Speaker:I was just there completely as an apprentice, watching
Speaker:them do it to other people in.
Speaker:Until trusted in me enough to do, to walk into give exercise and comfort
Speaker:and conversation and all the things necessary for post-op major surgery.
Speaker:That's really my only experience that comes to mind, I guess I did build houses.
Speaker:In high school and college for that kind of money that you needed
Speaker:back then, like El Pollo Loco.
Speaker:And I certainly didn't know how to build a house and I certainly didn't know how
Speaker:to pour concrete and do all those things.
Speaker:So of course I was not technically an apprentice.
Speaker:However my friends were, as you alluded to.
Speaker:They're all a lot of electricians and plumbers and that's union work.
Speaker:So the, those union jobs is where the apprenticeship really comes in.
Speaker:Is that is you have to kind of like earn your stripes, especially
Speaker:in the electric electricians.
Speaker:You have to earn their stripes because of course it's highly dangerous.
Speaker:But that's about the extent of my apprenticeship knowledge.
Speaker:Haven't seen it.
Speaker:Can't really think of where it's applied outside of what
Speaker:you alluded to, those gigs.
Speaker:Yeah, well, there are companies where an onboarding takes longer.
Speaker:And it could be the industry, like you mentioned, there's industry
Speaker:apprenticeships, healthcare like doctors, uh, they're not just finishing
Speaker:school and then jumping into that role.
Speaker:There's a lot of time they have to spend.
Speaker:Residency and other things, uh, to perfect the art of practicing.
Speaker:Cause it's, it's.
Speaker:There's a lot of risk.
Speaker:Maybe that's one reason that makes onboarding longer.
Speaker:If there's a lot of risk for the, maybe for the company, for
Speaker:the employee, maybe to the end customer or patient or whatever.
Speaker:So something about onboarding and makes it take longer, right?
Speaker:And the answer is probably, well, when it's necessary, it takes longer
Speaker:when we need them to learn more.
Speaker:When there's a lot to learn.
Speaker:There's a lot that they have to learn by experience.
Speaker:Like it could be like, look putting a nail into the wood is not kind
Speaker:of going to take long to learn.
Speaker:But where to put it when to put it different types of nails, lengths,
Speaker:wood, I mean, you know, spacing.
Speaker:It, it can get to the point where it's like, yeah, there is a lot of
Speaker:stuff here and it might be too much to learn in a quick amount of time.
Speaker:Simultaneously, there's probably industries where it's like, look, there's
Speaker:just an infinite amount of stuff to learn.
Speaker:The only way you're going to do it is if you're actually doing it.
Speaker:Is if you get thrown in, in a sense, and then you, you can make a lot of
Speaker:mistakes because the risk is low.
Speaker:So I think a lot of that contributes to, to making it longer.
Speaker:But there's a, there's one other aspect of onboarding I wanted to ask you about.
Speaker:And that is once you walk a new employee to the resources.
Speaker:Here's other employees, here's HR if you have a problem or a
Speaker:question about your benefits.
Speaker:Here's the employees you're going to be working with, right.
Speaker:Get to know them.
Speaker:Here's who's been here a long time.
Speaker:Here's the new hire before you, right.
Speaker:Here is your boss.
Speaker:Here is my bosses boss.
Speaker:Here's like how the company's organized, your computer.
Speaker:Once the resources are out of the way, right.
Speaker:I think the next step is the process.
Speaker:Here's how we do do the work, right?
Speaker:Here's the order we do it.
Speaker:Here's the priorities we've placed in certain things.
Speaker:Here is, what is important to us, like values.
Speaker:Here's the key performance indicators.
Speaker:Here's sales or revenues, a goal.
Speaker:But in other things it's like.
Speaker:You know how long we spend on a job, how, you know, the feedback we get from selling
Speaker:a car, the returning patients and how well they're receiving, the experience.
Speaker:How much they paid for something, you know, there's lots of measurements
Speaker:of success and you need to communicate to the role, right?
Speaker:Here's how you're measured.
Speaker:Here's what the company is trying to do.
Speaker:Here's how we go about doing that.
Speaker:And so teaching process or being taught process.
Speaker:Can, can be a little tedious, but do you have any experience there?
Speaker:I have and not only that I have experience preaching process.
Speaker:I think process from the marketer standpoint is absolutely imperative.
Speaker:In my opinion.
Speaker:I think you need to understand, again, it's goal, action, obstacle.
Speaker:You need to absolutely understand why you're doing something.
Speaker:The couple of things I always say in marketing is, then what?
Speaker:Everybody has this great idea.
Speaker:Then I say, then what?
Speaker:Like then what, because the picture is always somewhere else, especially if
Speaker:we're talking about a customer journey.
Speaker:And in marketing, that's essentially what we're always
Speaker:talking about in a roundabout way.
Speaker:Because without the customer, there isn't any other marketing anyway.
Speaker:And without the conversion, which is all why we measure it.
Speaker:So my process elements are really key.
Speaker:I think your leader should put the, the, the person being
Speaker:onboarded in a position to succeed.
Speaker:So they're coming in and they're clearly defining and clearly explaining, you
Speaker:know, what their role is, what they're here to do and, and reassuring them, you
Speaker:know, we'll, we'll get you there, you know, but nothing to fear at the moment.
Speaker:I'm going to even queue them up.
Speaker:I'm going to ask you in our meeting and our weekly meeting or whatever meeting
Speaker:we have, I'm going to come to you.
Speaker:I'm going to ask you this.
Speaker:And what that does is it builds confidence because they know
Speaker:what they're going to be asking.
Speaker:They're prepared to answer that in front of a group.
Speaker:So now their voice is being heard and now they're feeling like they belong.
Speaker:Now they feel like they matter.
Speaker:That is additional in addition to actually learning and process, that is actually
Speaker:like making them feel a part of it.
Speaker:So queuing them up those little wins.
Speaker:And that just speaking confidently in front of people that you don't really
Speaker:know all that well, because you're onboarding and in doing your piece, um,
Speaker:that to me is a big part of the process.
Speaker:The manager, the leader, putting you in a position to succeed for the big picture.
Speaker:So you mentioned KPIs.
Speaker:That's also part of the process where they need to know where they're headed
Speaker:and where the organization is headed.
Speaker:So, they know what their focus is from a roundabout way, at least, uh, at least a
Speaker:guidepost to say, if I know what my end goal is or what my KPIs are, at least I
Speaker:know where my train of thought should be.
Speaker:Where everything should be kind of thinking along these lines,
Speaker:just for a general guidelines.
Speaker:The other thing I think is really important is, for onboarding
Speaker:specifically, and it gets back to setting that comfort level.
Speaker:Is here's where we are today.
Speaker:This is our current state of affairs in the entire marketing ecosystem.
Speaker:This is exactly where we are today.
Speaker:Here's our end goal.
Speaker:All the diagrams and all the talk and forget numbers per se.
Speaker:Just talk about the scaling.
Speaker:You want something sustainable and scalable.
Speaker:So this is our end goal is this is where we want to get.
Speaker:So this is how we're going to get there.
Speaker:Now that's where you come in.
Speaker:Like, this is how we're going to get there.
Speaker:So once they thoroughly understand where the company is, where the organization
Speaker:is at the point, and then how are we going to grow together and move
Speaker:together, then the person being hired.
Speaker:I like to think that.
Speaker:Early access is how I think of myself and tell I am there on a knowledge base and
Speaker:tell them caught up to you in some way.
Speaker:Then when we start expanding upon this to get to the desired state.
Speaker:Now is when I can really offer my expertise and my experience,
Speaker:because this is how I've seen it go.
Speaker:And this is how I would do things.
Speaker:Or here's how I would improve things.
Speaker:And maybe not even improve them.
Speaker:I see that you've done something in the strategy in automation
Speaker:and touch points and sequencing.
Speaker:And I see you've done something differently than I've
Speaker:traditionally done in the past.
Speaker:Can I ask you why you do that?
Speaker:So then now you're having this conversation but conversation is
Speaker:learning and learning for both sides is really, really helpful.
Speaker:And that's part, in my opinion, that's part of the process rather than a.
Speaker:First we're going to do this, then we're going to do this.
Speaker:Then you're going to do that.
Speaker:That's a whole that is processed, but that's a different process
Speaker:that, that sound, when you're getting into the deliverables.
Speaker:Like now we have a project and we need A, B and C to happen.
Speaker:You know what I mean by that?
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:I think of a process is something a company has used for a while.
Speaker:It doesn't have to be per se, but it's something that
Speaker:company has found is successful.
Speaker:Or it's something that a company is trying to make successful.
Speaker:So a lot of times process is the thing a company is less willing to change.
Speaker:Our manager or your boss or whatever.
Speaker:They'd be like, look, this is how we do it at a different
Speaker:company, that was successful.
Speaker:You might've done it a different way, but here we do it this way.
Speaker:And as a new onboarded employee, you might be like, well, you brought me
Speaker:in here with experience and I did do things a different way, you know.
Speaker:I want to learn the new way, but at some point there, you might have
Speaker:to decide like, is this for me?
Speaker:And I think that, that comes down to like where process runs up into culture, right?
Speaker:So this is the way we do it here.
Speaker:And here's why we do it that way, because this person always drops the ball.
Speaker:So that's why we always do it.
Speaker:And you're like, oh wow.
Speaker:So our whole process is wrapped around someone who's
Speaker:dropping the ball kind of odd.
Speaker:Or another time it's like, look, we're doing it this way because this is what
Speaker:corporate says or we're doing it this way because the law says, or whatever it is.
Speaker:It's setting parameters around it.
Speaker:And that's why maybe they're doing it.
Speaker:But within the parameters, there might be a couple of ways to do it.
Speaker:Whatever it is they've chosen and stake down, this is how
Speaker:we're going to do things.
Speaker:It sometimes is a pattern that exists everywhere else.
Speaker:I like to think of it as well, the process is loose here and it's loose there and
Speaker:it's loose over here and it's kind of tight there, but it's again loose there.
Speaker:So there's like, wow.
Speaker:Process is there.
Speaker:It's fairly loose everywhere.
Speaker:So to me, so then if you think about it, that way, the culture
Speaker:is that processes are a little bit looser here and that's this company.
Speaker:And some people are like, I love that.
Speaker:Cause I love having wiggle room and other people are like, uh,
Speaker:the processes being loose, make it really hard to see what's working.
Speaker:It might be really hard to see why it's not working.
Speaker:It might also be difficult for other people to learn because it's like,
Speaker:okay, I went with this guy today and learned how to spray for pest control.
Speaker:And then I went with a different guy and he does it a totally different way.
Speaker:And I was like, well, I was told by this guy, that's the way you
Speaker:have to do it because of the rules.
Speaker:And this guy says the rules don't matter.
Speaker:So it's like, well, man, at the end of the day, onboarding a new
Speaker:employee has to figure out, okay, you know, do I want to job hunt again?
Speaker:Do I want to quit this job?
Speaker:Do I want to start looking again?
Speaker:Is this the culture I want?
Speaker:And so sometimes they just, you know, I'll just go along with this.
Speaker:This is the work I want, or this is, I'm fine with this.
Speaker:Let's see how it goes for a while, but culture is a big deal.
Speaker:So what do you think about onboarding new employees and then figuring out
Speaker:whether the cultures for them or not?
Speaker:Well, I think one thing to avoid, and this has happened to me in multiple stops.
Speaker:Too much information, you can, you get paralysis by analysis
Speaker:because when you're new, you're eager, you want to learn everything
Speaker:and you want to know everything.
Speaker:So on one hand, it's good to that the company has given you all of those things.
Speaker:I also know that going meeting to meeting.
Speaker:Department to department and just getting fed stuff.
Speaker:You might know marketing from a overall standpoint, but you don't really know
Speaker:how things are done in, in the particular business that you're at and per se.
Speaker:You know on some level.
Speaker:Look how confusing it is for the people that have been there for years.
Speaker:Like there's a lot going on, right.
Speaker:They've been there for years.
Speaker:You're there for day one and you're thrown into all these meetings and you're just
Speaker:getting bombarded with information and yes, you need that information, but you
Speaker:just can't get it all at the same time.
Speaker:Not only that you can't retain it, it's like months later things will
Speaker:come up and you're like, oh, okay.
Speaker:Now I remember this conversation day one, when they told me everything.
Speaker:That's the trick really is the pace of onboarding and the information
Speaker:that's that they should have and when they should have it.
Speaker:I found most places, I just get thrown into the weeds from too quickly,
Speaker:from not necessarily on what I need to do on a day to day for my job.
Speaker:But into information that I'm just not ready for yet, simply
Speaker:because I don't understand.
Speaker:How things are working to, even to that point.
Speaker:So it's hard to understand points B and C when I'm not clear on A yet.
Speaker:That's one thing that I really think is the bomb boarding of
Speaker:information all at one time.
Speaker:Yeah, that's what you make a really good point about the pacing.
Speaker:And then the organization, the order of onboarding.
Speaker:Those are huge.
Speaker:And if you get them wrong, let's say an employee, new hire partway
Speaker:through says it is not for them.
Speaker:And they leave.
Speaker:Now, okay, now why did that happen?
Speaker:I like to look at it like until someone is completed onboarding and the manager,
Speaker:I think a leader has a point where they're like, I trust this person's onboarded.
Speaker:They're done with the onboarding at that point on, I think the responsibility of
Speaker:the onboarding shifts off the manager's plate and in there they're done with it.
Speaker:But until that point has reached, I think it really is the
Speaker:responsibility of the, the onboarding person and the hiring person.
Speaker:If it's separate, if it's the same person, maybe better.
Speaker:The responsibility, on making sure this person is set up
Speaker:for success, relies on them.
Speaker:And so, they may need feedback, like from someone like you saying, yeah.
Speaker:You gave me the org chart and told me to memorize this, and then later
Speaker:explained who was actually important to ask for certain questions.
Speaker:And so I didn't really remember who it was.
Speaker:And then when I had questions, I didn't remember who it was.
Speaker:Cause I it's not something I needed or whatever it is.
Speaker:Right, so like the, the cart came before the horse.
Speaker:And so it was hard to put it together into a contextual way.
Speaker:At the end of the day, though, I think the whoever's responsible for onboarding
Speaker:an employee, wants them off their plate.
Speaker:Because they want to move on and do other things.
Speaker:And they're responsible for it because if you know, you spend, I don't
Speaker:know, four, six weeks onboarding someone and then they leave.
Speaker:Now you have to restart hiring.
Speaker:That's going to take time.
Speaker:We know from previous discussions and stats, it was something like
Speaker:30 to 90 days is the average time it takes to hire a new person.
Speaker:Then you have to onboard them another six weeks probably.
Speaker:And then hope at that point, they, they are the right fit.
Speaker:So over time, you're just cycling through this process,
Speaker:doing this over and over again.
Speaker:And with some employees, they may get it quicker in the beginning than others.
Speaker:Others may, you know, take it really slow.
Speaker:It may not all relate to like the quality of the employees.
Speaker:So, but I still think, it falls on the onus of the manager who's responsible
Speaker:for how well onboarding goes.
Speaker:What do you think?
Speaker:Right, I do think it falls on them.
Speaker:I also think it goes a step earlier in the interview process.
Speaker:I think you want to be very specific and clear.
Speaker:Almost what they could expect, because that will, I know as a
Speaker:person that gets interviewed for roles to move throughout my career.
Speaker:I always say, I let them know straight up very professionally of course, but like
Speaker:we're vetting each other here, right?
Speaker:It's not like the only job possibility in the world for you.
Speaker:So if you're, if you're desperate, you probably wouldn't say that.
Speaker:But in the grand scheme of things, really what you're doing
Speaker:is you're vetting the company.
Speaker:That's employing that that's, that's interviewing you.
Speaker:As well as they're vetting you.
Speaker:So in that process, if the manager's very, very clear with the role that they
Speaker:want this job to be and this person and how they want to take them and how they
Speaker:foresee them going and grow and growing.
Speaker:And all of those things.
Speaker:If you're very clear with all of that, the employee, the interviewee is
Speaker:going to obviously ask questions back because it's the choice that they're
Speaker:going to make and is a big deal.
Speaker:So that kind of back and forth will really tip off on both
Speaker:sides on how things are going.
Speaker:So that is all handled well in the interview process was once again,
Speaker:the onus is on the manager, right?
Speaker:It's they're the ones, that are doing it.
Speaker:So then when it gets to the actual onboarding process with the manager
Speaker:it's not a lot of surprises.
Speaker:There's not a lot of tricks.
Speaker:And if there is then shame on you and no wonder they're leaving and going
Speaker:to a better opportunity, because the picture wasn't painted quite as, the
Speaker:interview process led them to believe.
Speaker:And that's, that's back on the manager again.
Speaker:But I do agree with you.
Speaker:It's pretty much a manager's responsibility and that's why
Speaker:I think transparency and even something you mentioned earlier
Speaker:about not knowing how long the loosey goosey culture and environment.
Speaker:But that's where SLA has come in.
Speaker:So I think I have confidence in an organization when I know specifically
Speaker:that this is the ask, this is the work that's going to be done.
Speaker:We're having meetings constantly to, to work out this process.
Speaker:As we alluded to, and in this process, we determined the SLA
Speaker:is basically in that moment.
Speaker:The service length agreement of how long it's going to take you
Speaker:to get what you need to get.
Speaker:And that puts pressure on them.
Speaker:So you're not waiting around.
Speaker:So the culture becomes, there's two days, it's gonna take them two days to, for this
Speaker:release or for this, process to happen to, for them to complete the work required.
Speaker:That's a comfort, in my opinion, that's a comforting feeling.
Speaker:I like knowing the timeline.
Speaker:I like knowing when to expect something from somebody else.
Speaker:And I like knowing how much is on my plate that I need to
Speaker:take care of to get to them.
Speaker:Because like you said, when they get to that meeting and they're
Speaker:like, oh yeah, I'm not ready yet.
Speaker:Or that kind of a thing.
Speaker:And they're like, ah, okay, well, how long am I gonna have to wait?
Speaker:That's not great for anybody, but the person that says, well, I'm not ready yet.
Speaker:Now they're accountable.
Speaker:They have to be held accountable because they're in the meeting and it's okay.
Speaker:Things happen.
Speaker:Let's say that you're in trouble.
Speaker:Cause you need to get things done on time, but we're in a meeting.
Speaker:This is not done.
Speaker:And this has been a hold up.
Speaker:So what's your update.
Speaker:When, when can we expect this?
Speaker:What's you know what I mean?
Speaker:So you typically, I would think no employee wants all that pressure
Speaker:on them saying, okay, this I will, should have delivered on this date.
Speaker:And I did not deliver now I just had a meeting and say, I
Speaker:need another day or whatever.
Speaker:You know what I mean?
Speaker:So that kind of perpetuates the culture to say, okay, we're a
Speaker:machine and I need to answer for not having, A, B or C completed.
Speaker:So that communication that collaboration is clean and clear
Speaker:I think it is really important to make sure that
Speaker:collaboration is clean and clear.
Speaker:And I think it needs to go both ways in a sense.
Speaker:Cause I think it helps you as the hiring manager or a leader to get some feedback.
Speaker:I think it's important to know, maybe this went too fast.
Speaker:You know, if you would ask me here, we could have gone faster.
Speaker:Like maybe in one area, they're like, look, we went too fast
Speaker:and other way we went too slow.
Speaker:And so how do you know?
Speaker:And every person is going to be different.
Speaker:I think you can really screw up onboarding.
Speaker:I think you could.
Speaker:I think it's easy to drop things and make things so that, you just spend all your
Speaker:time hiring and when they're done hired.
Speaker:You just want to wash your hands of it, you know, and be like, Hey, go,
Speaker:you know, other people will train you.
Speaker:Yeah, some other employee here who's been doing it a while.
Speaker:They'll just train you.
Speaker:They'll pick up the habits, good or bad of that person, the processes, good or
Speaker:bad, the values, right, of that person.
Speaker:With a little bit of like, like indifference of, you know,
Speaker:this is a different person.
Speaker:They're going to respond to things differently.
Speaker:Look at it, like I spend a lot of invested time and resources hiring.
Speaker:I'm not just hiring a person for today to do this job today.
Speaker:I'm hiring this person in a role that I want them to grow.
Speaker:So that the later they might be going to hire people and they're
Speaker:going to go through things.
Speaker:And so it's a future investment and I think it should be taken seriously.
Speaker:And I think it should be looked at if you have an onboarding process,
Speaker:do you think could be improved?
Speaker:I don't think you, you know, go hardcore in the workshop and
Speaker:make a 10 X longer onboarding.
Speaker:I think you just look at, okay, what areas can be improved as a
Speaker:recent onboarding employee, or if you're onboarding one right now,
Speaker:ask them, you know, how's it going?
Speaker:What could be improved about this process?
Speaker:I've been through a lot of onboardings, but I haven't ever been through one where
Speaker:I was asked for feedback at the end.
Speaker:Have you ever had that Ronn?
Speaker:It's so funny that you just specifically asked that question because the
Speaker:point I was going to make is.
Speaker:Exactly that.
Speaker:I was going to say.
Speaker:It's also important in that process for the person that is onboarding you, to say,
Speaker:how you doing, how are you getting it?
Speaker:Is everything that just checking in, just how's it going?
Speaker:If you have any questions, like letting me know that kind of a thing.
Speaker:So I have had experience with that and, um, I would say I'm mo probably
Speaker:the job I have now more so than ever.
Speaker:And it's interesting because this whole conversation are we talking.
Speaker:If you think about a company that has 10 employees or a company that
Speaker:has thousands of employees, right?
Speaker:So the processes are different, the SLAs are different.
Speaker:So that loosey goosey stuff doesn't really fly in major corporate America.
Speaker:It's more of an intimate setting and the other thing is like a timeline.
Speaker:So the amount of pressure on an organization, as far as how quickly
Speaker:new things need to get done or how much pressure is on an individual.
Speaker:It's really the timeline.
Speaker:It's like, okay, it's we, it's going to take us to put our entire marketing
Speaker:stack and this several thousand employee company starting from scratch
Speaker:and I'd take a few years, right.
Speaker:So we're going to, I mean, literally you can't do this stuff overnight.
Speaker:So then you just start building.
Speaker:So the pressure feels a little bit less.
Speaker:I'm going through a little bit of that right now, but I will say.
Speaker:I have been, I've had the leadership high up in the org.
Speaker:I mean, I'm a senior marketing manager, so I'm up relatively high
Speaker:myself, but I obviously still have bosses and they have been unbelievably
Speaker:generous in terms of asking, how are you doing, are you with us?
Speaker:Cause they, like I said, like I said, they know how confusing it is.
Speaker:And they've been there for this whole ride for starting their marketing, you know?
Speaker:Over a little over a year ago.
Speaker:So they just got Marketo a year ago.
Speaker:And so it's still in its infancy for a massive corporation, right.
Speaker:All the things that they have going on are tricky.
Speaker:And when I came on and I start trying to learn, it was so overwhelming
Speaker:in terms of so many things going on that I had, my head was spinning.
Speaker:But they're just checking with that.
Speaker:They're like, just, it's all good, just relax.
Speaker:Are you good?
Speaker:You have questions?
Speaker:And I found that to be.
Speaker:Really, really, really comforting.
Speaker:Just simply to know that I could ask questions when I needed to,
Speaker:as well as knowing that they're like, yeah, look, you're not
Speaker:going to come and save the world.
Speaker:You just, it's going to take, it's going to take us some time.
Speaker:That check-in helped because as a new employee, you you're really eager.
Speaker:You want to come in and you want to put, you want to show them
Speaker:that you, that that's you're worth it and that you're happy.
Speaker:And as the next step in your career, either.
Speaker:A stepping stone for an advancement in your career or
Speaker:to grow within the organization.
Speaker:So you really want to come in and do something, and you're ready
Speaker:and eager and ready to able to go.
Speaker:But you just need to be aware of the fact that by your leadership, that
Speaker:they're there for you and that it's not overwhelming or too much for you.
Speaker:And that the resources are there.
Speaker:One really important thing about what you're saying there
Speaker:with the resources is trust.
Speaker:So in a sense, in an essence, you may want to, from the very get, go,
Speaker:make sure that this new employee feels comfortable asking questions.
Speaker:Because I think, yeah, the egos in there I really want to do well.
Speaker:I don't want to have to ask questions.
Speaker:I want to come in and just rock this thing and then not have to say anything.
Speaker:I want them to just, I want to be able to just read the mind of my manager,
Speaker:boss and do everything perfectly.
Speaker:I don't want to ever look bad.
Speaker:I don't want to ever make mistakes.
Speaker:I don't want them to see that, maybe like I have imposter syndrome and I'm, you
Speaker:know, I'm just faking it till I make it.
Speaker:But that's, that's, that's how pretty much everything is.
Speaker:And it's hard to get over that.
Speaker:And it's hard to create trust right away.
Speaker:You kind of have to earn trust.
Speaker:So it's really hard to set someone up and help them feel comfortable asking
Speaker:questions when they make mistakes.
Speaker:Because I think there's a grace period.
Speaker:I think it's, I think it's almost always there, but I think that
Speaker:should be, well-established like, look, people make mistakes.
Speaker:Like you like as an electrician and be like, look, just
Speaker:don't make a mistake here.
Speaker:Otherwise you're going to fry, you know, there's this high, current running here.
Speaker:So, you know, in other areas I'll be like, look, cause the doctor.
Speaker:Yeah, you know, it's hard to make a mistake with this patient, but
Speaker:that's why we make them here.
Speaker:That's how I make them now.
Speaker:That's why we asked the questions and it's really important.
Speaker:You do that.
Speaker:So I think establishing a culture of questions has to
Speaker:be present in the company.
Speaker:Otherwise you're going to have employees who work for you, terrified
Speaker:ask questions, terrified to make mistakes, never wanting to admit that.
Speaker:You know, you're hearing about it in reviews when you're not, you know, when it
Speaker:should be hearing about it from your own employees, that's that might be a signal.
Speaker:Hmm, I got a culture problem.
Speaker:That means I got an onboarding problem.
Speaker:It means I gotta, you know, it's just a lot more involved.
Speaker:Yeah, I would say, don't talk over people's heads, I mean that always
Speaker:like in the sincereness way, because sometimes when you simplify things.
Speaker:Like you said, when you come in, you feel like you're the subject
Speaker:matter expert, so there's all this pressure on you to be the expert.
Speaker:It's okay to say, I don't know.
Speaker:And I've had to learn that because.
Speaker:You feel the pressure of, they hired me for this role.
Speaker:So that means I need to know everything.
Speaker:And, and, and when you get asked, a question is like, uh, off the
Speaker:top of my head, I don't have every possible nuance of a marketing
Speaker:automation platform memorized.
Speaker:I know, I know extremely well, but I, I need, you know, you need to, sometimes
Speaker:you need to fact check a little bit, or you need to validate what you think
Speaker:or solve something in the instance that you hadn't even ever touched before.
Speaker:Because you had just haven't needed to.
Speaker:So it's okay to say, I don't know.
Speaker:And it's definitely okay.
Speaker:When you keep saying things out loud, then everybody's on the
Speaker:same page and everybody's on board because what you don't want.
Speaker:People that are too afraid to ask a question and they kind of either
Speaker:assume something or don't quite understand from several weeks ago.
Speaker:And now we're several weeks later and all along, they really weren't quite
Speaker:sure what we're doing, what we're talking about, what the objective
Speaker:was, what the obstacles were.
Speaker:So that real clear, redundant process talk, that's not over anybody's head.
Speaker:I think as the manager or a leader of your business, you've got to own onboarding.
Speaker:You've got to take responsibility for the hiring and the onboarding.
Speaker:I think those go hand in hand.
Speaker:And whatever that looks like for your industry or the role.
Speaker:I think we talked about, it can be very different in terms of length of
Speaker:time, the pace, the format, the style, who does it, maybe multiple people
Speaker:do, maybe there's shadowing involved.
Speaker:But I think at the end of the day, we've, we've done a good job, outlining, you
Speaker:know, that it helps to establish trust to make sure that an employee is armed
Speaker:with, you know, as much as they can in their role to be set up for success.
Speaker:I think that's like what you had said, the goal of onboarding is to make sure
Speaker:that this new hire is set up for success.
Speaker:That is a simple way to put it.
Speaker:And it's difficult to get there.
Speaker:I think it's easy to screw that up.
Speaker:And not only that the manager it's on the manager too.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:You hired, you hired this person.
Speaker:It would behove you and your department and the organization as a whole, for this
Speaker:person you hire to succeed because if they succeed, that means your succeeding.
Speaker:Yeah there without them, right.
Speaker:The company is umbrella and carrying their weight..
Speaker:Until they're there, everyone else is carrying the weight.
Speaker:So as soon as they're there, it does less than a little bit of the load, the
Speaker:pressure that exists on other people who are currently fulfilling that role.
Speaker:Wearing an additional hat, so that it's also really critical
Speaker:to get onboarding right.
Speaker:for the benefit of everybody else, who's an existing employee.
Speaker:I think that pretty much covered it.
Speaker:Was there anything else you wanted to add Ronn?
Speaker:That was pretty thorough.
Speaker:That was a really, really good in depth on both sides of the fence, right.
Speaker:Yeah, I think we, I think we totally, we hit a lot of this.
Speaker:There's we could dive into each little piece deeper, but I think
Speaker:we got, we covered like the general idea of it, but, um, yeah, help
Speaker:new employees land on their feet.
Speaker:And that's what onboarding is all about.
Speaker:So thank you for listening and thanks Ronn for coming on.
Speaker:Thank you, Kevin.
