What was your relationship with your father like? Maybe it was somewhat strained, like mine, or maybe it was idyllic. The relationships boys have with their fathers have obvious impacts on the men they later become, but it also affects how they form relationships with other men and how they fill the role of father, if given the opportunity.

In this episode of The Akkeri Podcast, I chat with longtime friend, Matthew Denis. Matt and I both lost our fathers to cancer and we discussed what our relationships with them were like, the societal and cultural factors that likely shaped them, and the important role of grace and empathy in relationship.

Matt has always been someone that I can easily have a laugh with, but I can just as easily dive into whatever is going on in my life and find a listening, supportive ear (even though he hasn’t listened to the podcast yet and didn’t know how to spell Akkeri). I hope this conversation is encouraging, inspiring, and maybe even a little entertaining (appreciation for sarcasm required).

Find The Akkeri Here:

Facebook.com/theakkeri

Instagram.com/the.akkeri

TheAkkeri.com

00;00;01;14 - 00;00;20;20

Matt Denis

I think my insecurity about not knowing how to be a friend. I look to my dad because I didn't. I never really saw my dad have close friendships. I went through a period where I lost grace for my dad, where I was like, oh, why was he that way? And then I was like, oh, he's he's a flawed human being, just like me.

00;00;20;23 - 00;00;31;11

Matt Denis

It's hard to be objective about your own parenting, because my default is to pretty much fall into a position of feeling guilty about everything.

00;00;31;14 - 00;00;57;03

Matt Howlett

You're listening to The Akkeri podcast, a show about men and masculinity, the challenges that modern men face, and how to chart a better way forward. I'm your host, Matt Howlett, mental health coach and founder of The Akkeri. This episode is a conversation I had with a long-time friend, Matthew Dennis, about our relationships with our fathers. We talked about the societal and cultural expectations, the likely experience, the important roles, grace and empathy, as well as Matt's own experience in fathering two teenage girls.

00;00;57;04 - 00;01;20;27

Matt Howlett

And if you stick around to the end, you just might get a behind the scenes look at why I like this guy so much. Even if he did forget the name of the podcast, just start by by giving me a little bit of an idea. Paint a little picture for us, if you will, of what it was like to be Matt Denis growing up just outside Sherwood Park, Alberta, living on the Acreage.

00;01;20;29 - 00;01;46;17

Matt Denis

I think from a objective standpoint, especially like now being a dad and seeing or I guess all the desires I have for my own children. I look at my childhood and I think, oh, it's such an ideal childhood. I grew up in a country. I had parents who weren't divorced, and it's like, okay, you know, you got all this space.

00;01;46;19 - 00;02;07;10

Matt Denis

That's what I think about for my kids. I'm like, oh, do they have time? Space to play? Do they have space to explore even though they're 13 and 15 now? And I don't know how much of that they're going to do, but when I see them doing, it warms my heart like that's what I want. I want them to like, this is like my ideal view for my children is like, just go in the trees and explore and play and make up games and stuff.

00;02;07;10 - 00;02;30;07

Matt Denis

And they do sometimes. And I'm like, oh, that's the greatest. And so when I look at my child, I'm like, oh, that was available and everything. But when you're a kid, you don't see it that way. And you see like, I think I was, I was a, I was lonely a lot. not because not because my parents attention to me, like, my mom was extremely attentive.

00;02;30;07 - 00;02;55;04

Matt Denis

She was a stay at home mom. So she was always there. And my dad was away a lot because he worked shift work as a police officer. So I didn't see him a ton, or I don't have a lot of memories of us doing things together. Kind of on the Saturday afternoon or after the day was over. but I was lonely a lot, I think, because there just weren't a lot of kids near me.

00;02;55;06 - 00;03;37;09

Matt Denis

You know, we were in the middle of nowhere, and I believe, and my mom would never say this, but I think I was probably a challenging kid for other kids to be around when I was young. Okay? I wasn't like, I didn't know how to be a good friend. It took me a long time to understand how to, how to not always be seeing myself through the eyes of some the other person that I with and always be kind of responding from a place of insecurity of are they going to like me if I do this or if they come over to my house?

00;03;37;11 - 00;04;02;11

Matt Denis

Do I have enough things for them to do to keep them entertained? I never really saw myself as being enough. And in even in an early childhood relationship, I always kind of felt insecure in that. So I think with that I would be I'd be kind of a someone who probably took energy as a kid. You know, you people probably feel out my anxiety, I'm sure.

00;04;02;13 - 00;04;03;09

Matt Denis

I don't know for sure.

00;04;03;16 - 00;04;13;15

Matt Howlett

Where do you think that would have come from? Like, is it partly just due to the fact that there weren't a lot of kids in that area? Like, how close was the closest friend?

00;04;13;18 - 00;04;39;24

Matt Denis

My closest physically closest friend was about a 20 minute drive away to, like the closest, town near where I went to school. but yeah, I think my, in reflection, just kind of like as an adult. Now, looking back, I think largely it comes down to my, my dad being a very insecure person and, and I don't think anyone would ever say that if they met him.

00;04;39;26 - 00;05;06;15

Matt Denis

You know, he's a police officer. He's a he talks tough and and he fills the room with his personality. But he's an immensely insecure. He was an immensely insecure person. And I think that his insecurity was almost at a point in his life, was almost a degree of self self-loathing. And I don't think that you, you as a parent teach that to your children, but I think you can exude it.

00;05;06;15 - 00;05;35;17

Matt Denis

And if you don't feel like you have value or measure up to your own standards, even though you don't say it, even though you don't articulate it that way, it comes out. It eventually is picked up on, especially by those closest to you. And I think my insecurity about not knowing how to be a friend, that that in a big part, I look to my dad because I didn't I never really saw my dad have close friendships.

00;05;35;20 - 00;06;03;21

Matt Denis

there was one individual in his life that I would say, yeah, he he really loved this person as as a friend. And they were like, they were partners as police officers. And this man brought in my dad this side that I didn't see anywhere else. And so there was a friendship there. But it was it was this, this guy who was almost like teaching him how to be a friend.

00;06;03;25 - 00;06;36;09

Matt Denis

And and they he had this unconditional love for him. Right. I knew that he saw the flaws of my father, but I could see in him this this just kind of, conditionality to their relationship. And I didn't see that anywhere else. And I think that's one of our roles as parents. How we interact with others in front of our children has says a lot, and says a lot about the value we see ourselves as having.

00;06;36;11 - 00;07;01;23

Matt Howlett

Yeah, for sure. I think you're right. I think a lot of of what we we teach anybody and what we say about ourselves is it's more indirect than it is direct, like, you know, mean our our actions always say more than our, our words do. And like the way that you, you know, even tonight we're like, where your girls around when you had your tail between your legs, like you said, you went back to your wife and, you know, you apologize like whether they were there or not.

00;07;01;23 - 00;07;26;11

Matt Howlett

Like if they were there, they're learning more about you, about what it's like to have a healthy, happy relationship. From those actions. You didn't tell them anything. You didn't instruct them. You didn't give them a heads up as to what was about to happen. But you, you did that through your actions, right? Like, what's your earliest memory of learning something from your father in that way?

00;07;26;13 - 00;07;32;18

Matt Howlett

More indirect, more passive. Like you saw him do something. You heard him say something.

00;07;32;20 - 00;08;10;29

Matt Denis

it that's an interesting question, because I would say that generally, my dad's personality and my personality are not naturally, we're not naturally, similar in personality. so I didn't start out as being a, a close reflection of Wayne Dennis. I actually started out as being a closer reflection of Cheri Dennis. We just same and we share a lot more similar, traits, you know, like the cliches of like, love language and, you know, Enneagram, stuff.

00;08;11;00 - 00;08;34;12

Matt Denis

You familiar with the Enneagram? my mom and I are much closer on the Enneagram than my dad and I would be, so I am a much more subjective learner when it comes to my mom and my, interactions. So I picked up a lot of her idiosyncrasies, a lot of her means of communication, a lot of her ways of loving.

00;08;34;14 - 00;09;05;22

Matt Denis

all kind of were picked up almost passively because our personalities were so much more similar. Right? Whereas my dad, I observed with a lot more objectivity so early on, I would say early on, even even as early as like eight years old, I was objectively seeing how my dad responded in times of stress and processed it as this is how he responds, not as this is how people respond.

00;09;05;25 - 00;09;47;14

Matt Denis

I kind of saw him from the outside very, very objectively. And in my early, most of my early observations of his, like the things I learned from him about him were often fairly naked. Yeah. because he really struggled with, I don't want to say anger. I think he just spent a lot of his personal life frustrated. and so when he was doing something in his personal life that led to frustration, it resulted in, like, explosive anger.

00;09;47;16 - 00;10;11;16

Matt Denis

He wasn't he wasn't, like, abusive or anything like this, but it was it was a a world that collided with mine because I don't respond that way. I don't respond with big words. I don't respond with big expressions of volume and stuff like this. Where's he did? And so I found it scary. And so I, you know, as a child, that's scary.

00;10;11;18 - 00;10;35;00

Matt Howlett

that resonates with me. a lot of that is similar to my experiences, a few few differences, but I don't remember at what age it was that I started to realize that the ways that my father responded to just, you know, daily occurrences wasn't the way that I responded or the way that I wanted to respond. You know what I mean?

00;10;35;00 - 00;10;54;13

Matt Howlett

I so I had that kind of an objective lens where I saw him and I was able to kind of internally, you know, kind of evaluate that. Do I, do I want this, do I like this, do I respect this, that, that type of, you know, internal dialog? I definitely picked up some of his more negative traits.

00;10;54;15 - 00;11;18;29

Matt Howlett

but it was all indirect, like, you know, there was no choosing. Not that I can recall specifically. I do remember thinking that all of the things that he could do, just because of where he grew up and how he grew up, he was very, very comfortable with, like hunting, fishing, outdoors, activities. Right. And he and that's what we, my sister, I learned from him, and, that was my experience.

00;11;18;29 - 00;11;44;00

Matt Howlett

At least I feel like that's really all of the positive things that I got from my father. The rest was negative. His outlook on life. I found him to be a fairly cynical, fairly pessimistic. I picked up some of that. There was some stubbornness that I had to kind of, you know, weed out and, Yeah, it's, it's an odd thing.

00;11;44;00 - 00;12;04;20

Matt Howlett

I, I think one of my earliest memories probably would have been before I was ten of thinking. I'm not sure that this is someone I really want to spend a whole lot of time with. And that's sad. Yeah. There was, definitely a period where I just started to realize that I didn't necessarily want to be there all the time.

00;12;04;26 - 00;12;29;11

Matt Denis

Was there like, did you go through a period where you, like, wonder what led to the divorce? Or was there a period of time where you blamed anyone? Like what? What is that like from, from through the small kids eyes?

00;12;29;14 - 00;12;52;10

Matt Howlett

There's a lot of things about life that I've kind of just taken as they've come and haven't gone too deep into thought about them. And that's definitely one of them. Now, later in life, it's obviously something that comes to mind every now and then. And you, you think it through just because it's a sad aspect of your life.

00;12;52;12 - 00;13;17;06

Matt Howlett

You know, it's it's sad to have not grown up with a father that I really wanted to respect and admire and be more like, you know, it was kind of the opposite. I had some respect for him, but I felt kind of, sympathetic. He lost his father when he was quite young. He was from a large family, didn't have a whole lot of attention.

00;13;17;08 - 00;13;42;11

Matt Howlett

But, no, that's not one that I. I really gave a whole lot of thought to because I that is something that I had conversations with mom about before she passed about how they met and why they got together. And you know how that all happened. And I had obviously been around my father enough to know what he's like and was raised primarily by my mother and my grandmother.

00;13;42;11 - 00;13;48;00

Matt Howlett

So I knew what my mother was like, and I could see the differences, and it just didn't make sense to me.

00;13;48;02 - 00;14;09;19

Matt Denis

Like, yeah, like as children, we had this, capacity for grace. Part of the grace is they can come away from some of it unscathed. But also when you feel like you really messed up and you go to your kid and you say, yeah, I'm really sorry I did that or acted that way too, like, no, that's okay.

00;14;09;21 - 00;14;31;24

Matt Denis

Like, you know, I've been stewing on this, I thought I wrecked you, and meanwhile you're like, oh, they're they're actually okay. Anyways, my point is that the capacity for children's grace, both actively and passively, is surprising. I went through a period where I lost grace for my dad, where I was like, why was he that way?

00;14;31;26 - 00;15;05;02

Matt Denis

You know, maybe in my early 20s and then in my 30s and later I was like, oh, he's he's a flawed human being, just like me. Yeah. And actually, at his core, I see what he was trying to do. So those Saturdays when he was off work at the time, as a child, when I'm being stunned and overwhelmed by maybe angry outbursts or something in my 30s, now I can look back and say, okay, he's he's been under slept now for two weeks because he had insomnia.

00;15;05;04 - 00;15;35;06

Matt Denis

He had afternoon court after working nights. You know, the guy was just burning the candle at both ends. And then on the weekend, our quality time together is changing the fucking bearings on a Dodge shadow in my parents driveway so that my mom can go get groceries. That's our quality time together, right? So so this this build of anger is, I understand, I can't find my tools.

00;15;35;09 - 00;15;50;24

Matt Denis

I want to spend time with my son, who I never see. So I'm gonna force his lazy ass to get out of bed at 9:00 in the morning on a Saturday. So now I'm the bad guy because I want to spend time with my son.

00;15;50;28 - 00;15;52;03

Matt Howlett

Yeah.

00;15;52;06 - 00;16;19;29

Matt Denis

And so. And the stupid bolt won't come undone. So boom, my head explodes. And now I look over at my nine year old son and he's afraid of me, right? You know, I can't imagine this sadness that would settle on my heart in that moment. But it's all happened. It's all done. The cat's out of the bag. And how do you explain to your nine year old son all of those elements?

00;16;19;29 - 00;16;27;02

Matt Denis

It's not until, you know, I'm 43 years old and I look back, I'm like, yeah, I do the same shit.

00;16;27;04 - 00;16;30;15

Matt Howlett

Did you have conversations with him about that?

00;16;30;18 - 00;16;53;09

Matt Denis

Not with that amount of vulnerability, because he, so much more trauma in his life than I ever could, hold a candle to that. I even at the late stages of his life, I don't think he was. He was equipped emotionally to have true, vulnerable conversation.

00;16;53;11 - 00;16;58;04

Matt Howlett

Right. Would that be mainly from his work?

00;16;58;07 - 00;17;24;08

Matt Denis

yes and no. there is a lot that I don't know about my dad's early years. Okay. but he. When he was like ten years old, he was an altar boy in the Catholic Church at the height of child predation in the Catholic Church. I didn't know that my dad has no memories from the time before.

00;17;24;08 - 00;17;53;00

Matt Denis

He was like ten years old. He has zero memories of his childhood. he has every indication of abuse as a child in in terms of being a person who holds high value in strength, he holds high value like physical strength, he holds high value in personal independence. He was a police officer. He was on the Swat team.

00;17;53;02 - 00;18;12;23

Matt Denis

All those things like they're great and they're indicators of someone with a high degree of drive, but they're also indicators of someone who lacked control of the most fundamental elements of their personhood early on in life.

00;18;13;00 - 00;18;13;29

Matt Howlett

Right.

00;18;14;01 - 00;18;43;25

Matt Denis

So, so someone who's been abused as a child will very often pursue these, these kind of career paths because it regains that sense of control over the things they lost in their childhood. his dad was a kind of a piece of shit. He would never say that. He he spoke highly of him, but he, you know, he had an affair, and he was, just absent.

00;18;43;25 - 00;19;08;02

Matt Denis

Never. Really? Yeah. He never told him he loved him ever. Once. And that was it. Something that struck him to the core. So anyways, long story short, I had a lot of grace for how vulnerable my dad was able to get near the end of his life, but we never really got to the point where we can have a true heart to heart without it going in one direction or another.

00;19;08;02 - 00;19;37;17

Matt Howlett

Yeah, I'm here nodding my head because there's, so many similarities between, my story with my father and yours. so many memories coming up just as you're talking. And the first one that comes to mind is, when my father was sick, because my father passed from cancer, and when he was basically on his deathbed, like, the last thing that he said to me was just that life was short.

00;19;37;20 - 00;20;14;19

Matt Howlett

And in the few conversations that we did have. And I shouldn't even call them conversations, I mean, he didn't have a whole lot to say the few times that we, we FaceTimed it was during Covid. I was disappointed in a way, but I also kind of expected that, like, even in with his, you know, his his dying, his last few days, it never really occurred to him to try and tell me that, you know, he was, he was sorry for for anything and never made any comments about, the relationship with my mother, you know, wish that could have worked out.

00;20;14;21 - 00;20;38;13

Matt Howlett

like, this is a man that, as far as I know, never had a serious relationship after my mother. I don't even know if he dated. If he did, he didn't tell me and didn't have much to to say to me about, you know. Oh, I wish I had been more open with you. I wish I had told you more about my life and you know my dreams.

00;20;38;13 - 00;20;59;25

Matt Howlett

You know what I mean? I know very little about what his childhood was like, but yeah, so I expected it. I was still kind of a little bit, just a little bit disappointed. But the same way that you described your father, I had, you know, a bit of bit of sympathy, but also empathy because I, I was like, I understand I get how you were raised.

00;20;59;25 - 00;21;17;27

Matt Howlett

I get that you lost your father when you were young. I get that you're not equipped to have that conversation with me. I can't imagine what he must have felt the few times that I tried to push, tried to push him a little bit and, you know, get a little bit deeper, try and actually build a relationship.

00;21;17;27 - 00;21;46;14

Matt Howlett

I remember once where I just straight up told him that I, I don't remember the exact words, but I said something along the lines of, like, you're your best opportunity with me is to try and be my friend because I'm, I'm an adult now, like, I, I at this point, I was I was believe, I believe I was in my late 30s when I said this to him, and he was still kind of trying to to parent me a little bit, you know, making comments about decisions and things that I was planning.

00;21;46;16 - 00;22;05;27

Matt Howlett

And this is a man who, you know, didn't have post-secondary education, had never really lived outside of the province other than to do a labor job, hadn't pursued women outside of my mother, you know what I mean? So I had surpassed him in almost every single area of life. And yet he was still trying to to parent me.

00;22;05;27 - 00;22;22;00

Matt Howlett

And I just said to like, dad, listen, you, I hope you can understand that. Like, you know, this is not me being arrogant and trying to tell you what it's like. you know what? You should do your, your life like. But if you want to have a relationship with me, you got to recognize that I've done a few things.

00;22;22;00 - 00;22;44;04

Matt Howlett

I've been a few places, like I've learned a little. You know, I'm in my late 30s now. If you want to be my life, your best opportunity to do that is to be my friend. Respect my decisions. If you want to question them, like I'll have a conversation with you, but don't push me to the point where you know it sounds like you actually do know better than I do about the things that I'm right.

00;22;44;06 - 00;23;10;09

Matt Howlett

But I mean, but, yeah, I think he understood the gist of what I was going for, and I think he tried his best to respect that. But honestly, it I'm not sure that it, it really helped too much. Like, I think the, the times that he overstepped were much fewer and far between. But did I get to know him at all?

00;23;10;11 - 00;23;32;17

Matt Howlett

00;23;32;19 - 00;23;50;23

Matt Denis

So why do you think our fathers, you know, I have my ideas, but, like, what makes us different and how did we learn that this was important to have these conversations?

00;23;50;25 - 00;24;14;04

Matt Howlett

Yeah, well, I mean, the obvious one is generational, right? The traditional model of masculinity still is, you know, carried forward. It's not as strong as it used to be. But when I say generational, like I'm thinking what was happening back in the late 40s and 50s, you know, what was in the media, what was happening in culture. Like you know, we're looking at, you know, post-World War Two.

00;24;14;09 - 00;24;35;17

Matt Howlett

We're looking at, you know, a period of time where men were, well, for one, coming back from war and did not want to talk about it. You know what I mean? Yeah. We're looking at men are still the breadwinners. Men are still the kind of the leaders of the household. You're looking at a time when religion held a lot more, more power.

00;24;35;17 - 00;25;12;23

Matt Denis

And yeah, even even in kind of a patriarchal mindset. That's exactly right. So what I think is probably a common thread there is how our fathers were raised by their fathers. As much as I mourn my relationship with my father that it wasn't perfect, I look back at my dad and they say he actually did the absolute best he could with what the with the foundation, the groundwork that he was given by his father and he actually moved mountains.

00;25;12;23 - 00;25;54;28

Matt Denis

When you compare that to I have a lot of grace there because I know, man, my dad's dad was miles behind his beat behind my dad, and my dad would be seen as like having, you know, made a huge leap towards vulnerability by comparison. Whereas I'm, I'm that distance again from my own father. But if he hadn't made that leap, I would be my father in this generation today, starting from that baseline, the impact of his father on him led to where I'm at today.

00;25;55;00 - 00;26;25;26

Matt Denis

And so if if we expect growth in the next generation, that's our responsibility. And that's kind of I think the point of what you're doing. Right. The point of, this conversation, the point of this vulnerability that we have today is to say, let's keep this moving. Not that not that we're so broken that we're in a giant mess, but that this is a muscle we have to continue to flex because we see that this has a positive outcome.

00;26;25;28 - 00;26;45;20

Matt Howlett

Yeah, yeah. Well, you summed it up pretty accurately that that is why I'm doing what I'm doing. And I mentioned on the website and when I'm talking about the podcast, when and when I say conversation, it's the, the bigger conversation. You know what I mean? That I'm done. I'm trying to be a part of and trying to push forward.

00;26;45;20 - 00;27;19;18

Matt Howlett

And then the main point of that is to keep that going and to keep really an open mind and to remind men, you know, that we have a lot of work to do. A lot of work has been done. We've come a long way, like even you and I, from from our fathers and from their fathers. we've how we've grown, how we have changed our mindset when it comes to, you know, emotional intelligence when it comes to our, relationships with our friends and our partners and and you know, what we talk about?

00;27;19;18 - 00;27;22;07

Matt Howlett

What we don't talk about, how we talk about things.

00;27;22;10 - 00;27;42;10

Matt Denis

Yeah. And you know it. And I know this is it's not going to be fun. Okay. But it does make me wonder, you know, if we if three generations back, we were this much of a mess. All right. Does it ebb and flow? You know? You know what I mean? Like, does it does it ebb and flow with social conditions?

00;27;42;10 - 00;28;13;29

Matt Denis

This damage the damage to humans, the damage to the fathers, the damage to mothers. It does it even flow with where society is currently at? Because I don't I feel like if we if we take, you know, the progress from me emotionally, from me to my father to his father, I think you get two generations back before that and you be like, how can that human being exist in a world as a human?

00;28;13;29 - 00;28;32;29

Matt Denis

Because they'd be an absolute piece of shit, you know what I mean? So there must be there must be ebbs and flows of humanity where we get it and then we lose it, and then we get it again, and then we lose it again, and then we get it. You know what I do?

00;28;32;29 - 00;28;58;05

Matt Howlett

Yeah. No, I know exactly what you say. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. If we if we take a couple steps back generationally, it's all relative, right? So, like your great grandfather, my great grandfather, you know, lived in a time when the expectations were were different. You know, what was generally accepted and expected for for men was different.

00;28;58;07 - 00;29;20;17

Matt Howlett

Now, I think those expectations are very much in flux, like, especially just when it comes to even what a man is like, you know, if we told our great grandfathers that, you know, in a hundred years or so, there's there's going to be conversations about what actually makes a man like, what is a man? You know what I mean?

00;29;20;19 - 00;29;38;27

Matt Denis

Yeah. I think that having a I have in hindsight, where we acknowledge the context that our fathers grew up in, is, is really valuable because I think it provides a certain amount of grace for where they ended up.

00;29;38;29 - 00;29;48;01

Matt Howlett

There's something I'm I want to hear about, from you before I, kind of bring this to close. I don't want to take up too much of your time, but,

00;29;48;04 - 00;29;50;23

Matt Denis

What? You've already taken up so much of my time. Oh.

00;29;50;23 - 00;29;54;24

Matt Howlett

I'm sorry.

00;29;54;26 - 00;29;56;26

Matt Denis

I'm out of wine. Have you.

00;29;56;26 - 00;30;01;01

Matt Howlett

Have you already left a zero out of five star review?

00;30;01;04 - 00;30;04;15

Matt Denis

Yeah, I like Google review. This bullshit.

00;30;04;17 - 00;30;31;15

Matt Howlett

A simpler, more straightforward question. And, yeah, related to, I mean, this has to be related to your father. What are the the challenges that you face now as a father to, you know, is there any relation to how you yourself were fathered, how you were parented? when it comes to how you now parent your two children, like, what are the challenges that you've seen?

00;30;31;15 - 00;30;36;10

Matt Howlett

What's the biggest one that you're even facing right now?

00;30;36;12 - 00;30;38;15

Matt Denis

it's it's hard to.

00;30;38;19 - 00;30;39;14

Matt Howlett

You know, two teenagers.

00;30;39;14 - 00;31;07;16

Matt Denis

It's hard to read. Yeah, yeah, I have a 13 year old and a 15 year old girl, and it's. I find it's hard to be objective about your own parenting. For me, it is because my default is is to pretty much fall into a position of feeling guilty about everything. And again, and maybe that's how my insecure has translated to adulthood, is I want to be a great dad.

00;31;07;23 - 00;31;52;00

Matt Denis

And the way I think that my expectation of the fruit of being a great dad looks is my kids have very little social struggles. They know what they want in life and they're in a trajectory to obtain it. so to to be objective and not blame myself for everything, every, every negative kind of interaction, I think that my, my greatest challenge is being patient with the emotional growth of my children and the kind of the the discovery, the self-discovery period that they're going through.

00;31;52;02 - 00;32;23;16

Matt Denis

and so with that, in my tendency is to compare where the development of my friends or peers, children to my own children. Yeah. And it's really not fair. And I give you the reason why is because on the surface, it's very easy for a family to appear like they have a plan, especially when you only see a family with kids every now and then.

00;32;23;16 - 00;32;44;10

Matt Denis

It's very easy to see their the child's progress. It's like, wow, it's leaps and bounds, right? Maybe you're only seeing them once a month. Yeah. But when it's your own family and you see it minute by minute, day by day, you're like, oh my gosh, is this child ever going to get past this hurdle, this struggle they have socially, this struggle.

00;32;44;10 - 00;33;09;17

Matt Denis

They have emotionally, this struggle they have even academically. But if I look, I'm sure if I look back at six months from now, I'll be like, yeah, they made leaps and bounds. And they're also not interested in things that I'm interested in, but they sell it. Things that I'm not into that I personally am not interested in. So I'm like, how do I help you be a better be a better dancer?

00;33;09;20 - 00;33;29;12

Matt Denis

I can't really, but I can encourage you in that direction. So I'm an engineer by trade. I can't sit down next to her and help her while I can, but it would be force if I sat down next to her and said, we're going to design a robot together using this. You know, this kid's robot package. It's going to be this beautiful moment.

00;33;29;14 - 00;33;49;17

Matt Denis

That's not really what floats your boat. And so I need to meet her where she's at. Yeah, simple. Is it? I don't I can't force her to come to me. I have to go to her. And that's really hard. because I'm a fish out of water and. And I don't know the right words to say I don't know.

00;33;49;22 - 00;33;56;10

Matt Denis

Right? The the thing that's going to make her feel encouraged. And and I'm an idiot with that stuff.

00;33;56;15 - 00;34;14;29

Matt Howlett

Yeah. It's not an opportunity for you to speak from your experience and to share. Yeah. With her. From that, you, you kind of have to take her lead and just jump in where you can. Yeah. And just, like, kind of be yourself. Yeah. Almost learn from your own child. Yeah.

00;34;15;02 - 00;34;45;24

Matt Denis

And also, so it's the same with Ruby like that. She's, she's into volleyball and like, okay, I get smart, I can, I can kind of get engaged in that. But she doesn't want my encouragement in the way that that I understand how to give encouragement and support. So I have to figure that one out too. And then also just recognizing that the love they need doesn't come through me, leading them into successes in their pursuits.

00;34;45;26 - 00;35;12;24

Matt Denis

the love they need is actually different. the love Lily needs is for me to sit down and read a book with her before the the night is over. That's what she needs, right? It doesn't feel like I'm tilling the soil of our relationship there, but that it does feel that way to her and Ruby. she doesn't need me to force her to, do lunges so she can jump higher in volleyball.

00;35;12;26 - 00;35;44;15

Matt Denis

That's not a love language for her. For her? I don't know, man. She's pretty confident, kid, but I think she just wants to know that she's being heard when. When she's got something to say, I think. And and it's like learning new languages because there's these new people in your world. I look at my dad and like his was, he wanted me to know how much love he was showing me by teaching me how to work on cars.

00;35;44;18 - 00;36;06;00

Matt Denis

That was that was a real expression of love from him. Yeah. But to me, it was it was challenging. It was painful. I didn't want to be doing that on a Saturday. I wanted to, you know, I wanted to be watching cartoons. I want to be doing these other things. But for him, that was I'm going to slow down my progress to involve my son.

00;36;06;02 - 00;36;18;26

Matt Denis

And I think it's healthy for us to look back and say, when was my dad trying to love me? That I missed? And then I can acknowledge now and feel loved now. I don't think it's too late.

00;36;18;28 - 00;36;39;04

Matt Howlett

Yeah, well, no, I mean, like I said, even from my father, like there was periods where I just felt sympathetic, but there's also periods where I could have empathy and I could understand, and I could look back and and see exactly what you just said, you know, look back and see with a bit of, you know, grace and understanding that he was doing his best.

00;36;39;07 - 00;37;04;10

Matt Howlett

And there were there were moments where, you know, we connected over things that we did actually have in common, because I did really enjoy a lot of the outdoor activities that he introduced me to. like cross-country skiing was definitely one of them. And I remember maybe a few years before he passed when he was still healthy, having a beer with him because I didn't grow up.

00;37;04;14 - 00;37;32;13

Matt Howlett

You know, I grew up very conservatively. and good Christian church and a Christian family and didn't touch alcohol until years later. Still don't drink very much. But I remember dad was barbecuing something and we were, my sister and I were at his place, and he asked me if I. If I wanted one, or I think I might have actually went to his fridge in his shed and grabbed one and so here we were sharing a beer, and he thought it was the coolest thing ever.

00;37;32;16 - 00;37;48;01

Matt Howlett

Right? So there was, there was moments like that because he his he said, you know, I never thought I'd be sharing a beer with my son because he always kind of drank. Right. But I never did until I was like in my 30s. But what I wanted to say something else, though, and what you were just describing, men like.

00;37;48;03 - 00;38;13;23

Matt Howlett

I've, I've obviously known you for a while, and I've seen I've met your children. I've seen you be a father. But what you just just described men, I think, you know, you deserve some, like, just respect for that approach. Because even in the way that you describe it, you're talking about putting them first. Not so much what you need in those situations or even what you, you see it as, how you interpret it.

00;38;13;26 - 00;38;33;10

Matt Howlett

You're looking at those situations from your children's point of view, you know, what is it that they're interested in? What is it that you think they need? And, you know, that's trial and error, and you figure it out and you ask them and you learn from them, but you're putting yourself in a place where you are vulnerable because you're trying to do your best.

00;38;33;10 - 00;38;41;00

Matt Howlett

You're trying to figure them out. You're asking questions. You're learning their language, like you said. that's that's impressive, man. I think that's.

00;38;41;02 - 00;39;12;00

Matt Denis

Yeah, that's really cool. You know what? You you articulated it better and that is and that is my fundamental challenge in parenting is not putting my needs as as a parent, my needs of validation, my needs of this is what it looks like to successfully parent you ahead of. There needs to be properly parenting. That is that is the greatest challenge.

00;39;12;00 - 00;39;23;22

Matt Denis

And I think you put in and you put it, you put the words to it. And you know, I appreciate it, but that is the that is the daily struggle. And I feel it. I fail at it every day.

00;39;23;24 - 00;39;56;13

Matt Howlett

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that's also common though, right? Like, you're not the only one who's experiencing that challenge and not even just from the parenting standpoint in all relationships. It can be a challenge because especially like the different levels of, say, deepness of connection and in relationship. So with someone that you, you know, you might see casually every now and then, it's always challenging to be a little bit deeper, to be a little bit more real, to kind of put that person's what they want and what they need first.

00;39;56;15 - 00;40;20;06

Matt Howlett

When you comes, when it comes to someone that you're like living with, you know, for me, with my fiancee, for you, with your with your spouse, like, it's sometimes I think easier in those situations to put what it is that the other person might want or need first. You know that I was married before and was divorced, and now I'm, you know, I'm I'm engaged and we're going to be, married in July.

00;40;20;08 - 00;40;56;06

Matt Howlett

Both relationships are quite different. And there's many different reasons for why they're quite different. But one of them is that with Dana, I have always felt understood and appreciated. And those are two very different things, but very important to me. I think they're important in pretty much all relationships, but to me, they're Mike like my core needs. I've always known that I need someone who not just understands me, but really appreciates how I see the world, how I want to interact with the world, what it is that I want from the world, and what it is that I want to give back and why.

00;40;56;07 - 00;41;31;04

Matt Howlett

You know what I mean? All these big deep. Because I'm an I'm an Enneagram four, you know what I mean? And I don't think that way because I am an Enneagram four, you know, I'm an Enneagram four because I think that way. I use these personality test just, you know, as tools to help help me understand myself. And, but that's kind of what I'm saying is that with with Dana, it is so much easier for me to put what it is that I think she might need or want first, because I know that at the end of the day, she's going to do the exact same thing for me.

00;41;31;07 - 00;42;05;10

Matt Howlett

And she always has, you know, the patience, the grace, whatever it is really, that I might need in moments when maybe I'm the one that is like not feeling myself, but it's so much easier to put her her needs, her wants first. When I. I know that this is someone that I'm, you know, loved unconditionally by, that I'm appreciated and that in my, you know, lower moments, she's got me.

00;42;05;13 - 00;42;34;03

Matt Howlett

And it's because she loves me, appreciates me, understands me, not just because she's in a committed relationship where she's got my ring on my finger, you know what I mean? And that's that's a beautiful thing. And that's what I've always appreciated about you. And I actually like, I think you and I, we get each other. And and I don't want to, I don't want to bring up something like overly emotional, but like you wrote me, you wrote me a bit of a love letter when I left Edmonton back.

00;42;34;03 - 00;42;39;11

Matt Denis

And I do that every now and.

00;42;39;13 - 00;42;46;05

Matt Howlett

Well but dude, like I still have that and I because I appreciate that about about you and I like you. It was just a card.

00;42;46;06 - 00;42;46;24

Matt Denis

Kind.

00;42;46;26 - 00;43;14;24

Matt Howlett

And you basically said something along the lines of some people, just don't get me, you know, and that I and I, that I did. And as someone who, you know, finds that as very important to me, you know, being understood and appreciated just for for who I am. You know, that's why I kept that. But I mean, you know, that's I think that's a super important thing for, for all relationships.

00;43;14;24 - 00;43;23;17

Matt Howlett

So the fact that you're doing that with your, with your kids, I mean, it's, you know, it's a fundamental and they're going to learn that from you. You know what I mean. Yeah. They're going to see that from you.

00;43;23;18 - 00;44;01;26

Matt Denis

And it it takes time. Right. Like we don't see the evidence of it I think until quite late with kids. And, and I think that's part of the beautiful part of parenting is how it kind of it does refine that. Like what you would you have with you the the unconditional love and the beauty of it. It's, it's it's, incredible when you have these two people committed to the relationship and then when you bring these little people in who don't reciprocate necessarily.

00;44;01;29 - 00;44;27;09

Matt Denis

but you for find one another as partners to understand what humble and unconditional love can look like. It's an additional phase that's going to add to the relationship and say, okay, now that I know how to love unconditionally, I'm going to love this little creature unconditionally. Who is, you know, going to complain when I make this beautiful meal?

00;44;27;11 - 00;44;51;01

Matt Denis

They're going to they're going to find some reason to offend my, my inner child that says, oh, I actually want it to be validated. Their why? Why are you not validating me? And, that it's painful. It's immensely painful, but it's it's also immensely beautiful. And that's why we do it, right?

00;44;51;03 - 00;44;51;27

Matt Howlett

Yeah.

00;44;51;29 - 00;45;23;02

Matt Denis

And even with our fathers, the way I love my dad has taught me so much about how love works. It's taught me so much about unconditional love. Yeah, from his perspective, from my perspective. And the outcome is that even though he's passed away, our relationship can still continue to heal and the richness of our relationship can still be greater.

00;45;23;05 - 00;45;41;29

Matt Denis

It doesn't end when he passed away. There's still more richness to be had. As I begin to understand more about the person that he was and how much selflessness was represented by even the the strained portions of our relationship, yeah.

00;45;42;01 - 00;46;02;28

Matt Howlett

00;46;02;28 - 00;46;36;07

Matt Howlett

It was at least a semester. And your folks just took me in, like your sister was living elsewhere at the time. So I basically moved into her bedroom and became part of your family for like at least 4 or 5 months. And it was fantastic. And but I think your father, more than anything in that period of time, was kind of loving me by giving me that supportive structure, because he did have one conversation with me that I can at least remember where he just kind of wanted to, like, make sure that I was aware of of what was happening.

00;46;36;07 - 00;46;50;12

Matt Howlett

And you know, what, what the expectations were. And, and then I've repaid you guys by, by waking you up at 233 in the morning by trying to stoke the fire. You guys remember that I yeah.

00;46;50;15 - 00;46;52;12

Matt Denis

He did our house, household wood. Yeah.

00;46;52;12 - 00;46;54;06

Matt Howlett

Your house was with him.

00;46;54;07 - 00;46;57;11

Matt Denis

00;46;57;13 - 00;47;16;26

Matt Howlett

Yeah. I was up late cramming for an exam and you know, the fire had gone out. I was freezing cold and, went down to try and stoke that thing and dropped the log and didn't wake any early. I didn't hear it in the moment, but I heard it in the morning. And you were the one to bring it up.

00;47;16;28 - 00;47;20;02

Matt Denis

Was how do you.

00;47;20;04 - 00;47;29;27

Matt Howlett

I this is random memories coming back to me. No. From the Dennis family acreage. Learning to drive. What? What car was it that you had that I learned to drive?

00;47;29;28 - 00;47;33;00

Matt Denis

Stick on. Oh, God. Where are you driving stick.

00;47;33;03 - 00;47;36;26

Matt Howlett

Well, that's how I learned to drive stick. Wasn't it a Daytona or something?

00;47;36;29 - 00;47;41;00

Matt Denis

it was a Dodge Charger. You want to drive a stick?

00;47;41;03 - 00;47;52;14

Matt Howlett

Yeah, man. Buddy, I, I had never, driven a standard in my life. Drove yours once, then went and bought my Jetta.

00;47;52;16 - 00;47;53;20

Matt Denis

The GTA, which.

00;47;53;20 - 00;48;10;24

Matt Howlett

Was the standard. And I don't know if the, like, the sales guy that popped in the car with, Andy and I. I don't know if he knew. I don't know if he had thoughts about like, oh my God, like, this guy is going to just destroy the gearbox in this, like, slightly used vehicle.

00;48;10;27 - 00;48;12;15

Matt Denis

Oh it's amazing.

00;48;12;17 - 00;48;34;15

Matt Howlett

Thank you for listening. I hope you found some value in this episode. If you have, be sure to share the podcast with a friend and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can find the offer on socials at Dockery and on the web at the Wycombe. We're still recording. Careful. I could just like, remix any of it.

00;48;34;17 - 00;48;38;09

Matt Denis

I love it. When is, the sequel?

00;48;38;11 - 00;48;44;03

Matt Howlett

The sequel is, you're referring to the elopement, the marriage?

00;48;44;06 - 00;48;46;11

Matt Denis

No, no, for.

00;48;46;13 - 00;48;53;21

Matt Howlett

Well, I don't know what else you're talking about. The sequel of what? There's only one thing in my life that there's two of it I collect.

00;48;53;23 - 00;48;55;08

Matt Denis

Yeah.

00;48;55;10 - 00;48;57;03

Matt Howlett

I what do you mean, the podcast?

00;48;57;06 - 00;49;04;26

Matt Denis

This is, like, equal to our podcast. What are we going to do? That, the sequel in here.

00;49;04;29 - 00;49;13;07

Matt Howlett

When you say sequel, I see that's what you meant. what? What the fuck else would he be talking?

00;49;13;10 - 00;49;23;15

Matt Denis

Because, I'm going to call. Yeah. A new Hope. Yeah.

00;49;23;17 - 00;49;25;05

Matt Howlett

Help me. Obi-Wan.

00;49;25;08 - 00;49;27;06

Matt Denis

I don't even have your website.

00;49;27;09 - 00;49;36;28

Matt Howlett

Good God, you are the worst friend. Do you even know how to spell Akkeri?

00;49;37;00 - 00;49;38;13

Matt Denis

what?

00;49;38;15 - 00;49;40;20

Matt Howlett

Yeah, that's what I thought. That's what I thought.

00;49;40;22 - 00;49;41;11

Matt Denis

Awkward.

00;49;41;17 - 00;49;47;29

Matt Howlett

Awkward? Yeah. It's the awkward become the awkward podcast. Come because that's what it feels like.

00;49;48;02 - 00;49;48;16

Matt Denis

A.

00;49;48;18 - 00;49;54;05

Matt Howlett

Mockery. A k e r I. This is not going to make the cut.

00;49;54;07 - 00;49;55;11

Matt Denis

What is awkward?

00;49;55;14 - 00;49;59;06

Matt Howlett

You mean you haven't even listened to the first episode?

00;49;59;06 - 00;50;04;16

Matt Denis

You asshole. You never gave me any of this information.

00;50;04;18 - 00;50;15;02

Matt Howlett

What do you mean? Am I supposed to text you and give you all the links and ensure that you're properly subscribed and you know how to use your smartphone awkwardly?

00;50;15;03 - 00;50;17;25

Matt Denis

Scientific? Is that you?

00;50;17;27 - 00;50;30;12

Matt Howlett

I don't think so. It's. It's the awkward ecom. Awkward is a k e r I. An orca is a Norse word for anchor.

00;50;30;14 - 00;50;31;28

Matt Denis

And k a e.

00;50;32;00 - 00;50;34;07

Matt Howlett

A k k.

00;50;34;09 - 00;50;35;08

Matt Denis

K k.

00;50;35;11 - 00;50;36;23

Matt Howlett

Yeah AK.

00;50;36;24 - 00;50;38;14

Matt Denis

E r I.

00;50;38;17 - 00;50;42;12

Matt Howlett

V [e.com](http://e.com/).

00;50;42;15 - 00;50;51;21

Matt Denis

I can't believe what an absolute piece of shit I am. Yeah, you. You're a handsome son of a bitch. Pump.

00;50;51;23 - 00;50;57;03

Matt Howlett

You're pumping your tires telling you you're a good father, good friend.

00;50;57;05 - 00;51;03;02

Matt Denis

I bookmarked it. Oh, I love this. Yeah, I'm going to.

00;51;03;04 - 00;51;05;17

Matt Howlett

Yeah. Have a look for it.

00;51;05;20 - 00;51;10;17

Matt Denis

I'm kind of a big deal on LinkedIn, so I'll share it on there.

00;51;10;19 - 00;51;26;13

Matt Howlett

I'm kind of a big deal. and I think that's how I'm going to introduce you at the beginning of the podcast. This is, my buddy Matt Dennis, for those of you who don't know, he's kind of a big deal on LinkedIn.

00;51;26;15 - 00;51;33;29

Matt Denis

is CEO of something and everyone else, thanks, buddy, for including me.

00;51;34;01 - 00;51;38;10

Matt Howlett

Of course, you were top on the list.

00;51;38;12 - 00;51;47;03

Matt Denis

and I go, okay, when I go see my brides. So it was like, you. I getting, like, my friend.

00;51;47;06 - 00;51;51;01

Matt Howlett

All right, brother, I appreciate it.