Abbie and Adrian take a break from the very serious topics we've discussed on recent episodes to share our hot and Coldplay takes on a few of the stories that have been dominating the news lately.

From the kiss cam to Cracker Barrel—with rambling detours and digressions on Marilyn Monroe and Taylor Swift—there's something in this episode to interest or annoy almost anyone.

(We also say a few smart things about brands and community engagement, the societal impact of celebrity culture, and the balance between pop culture and private life. It's not all fun and games, you know!)

Read the transcript and notes for this episode on our website.

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Credits

Copper State of Mind, hosted by Abbie Fink and Dr. Adrian McIntyre, is brought to you by HMA Public Relations, a full-service public relations firm in Phoenix, AZ.

The show is recorded and produced by the team at Speed of Story, a strategic communications consultancy for PR agencies and marketing firms, and distributed by PHX.fm, the leading independent B2B podcast network in Arizona.

If you like this podcast, you might also enjoy PRGN Presents: PR News & Views from the Public Relations Global Network, featuring conversations about strategic communications, marketing, and PR from PRGN, "the world’s local public relations agency.”

May you live in interesting times. That's how the saying goes. And we are living in interesting times. As we've had some very serious episodes and important guests here on the show, the world around us has continued to be interesting and weird and outrageous and ridiculous all at the same time. From the kiss cam at a Coldplay concert to Sydney Sweeney's jeans and genetics to barrels filled with crackers and a football player and a pop star, the news headlines that aren't about difficult, challenging political and economic issues are about some of the most crazy stories that we have seen in a while. Abbie, what's on your mind?

Yeah, so we have had some really great guests over the last handful of episodes, which meant we were relying on their knowledge and expertise. And you and I haven't had just a general conversation about things. And I thought, well, wouldn't it be fun to kind of talk about these headlines that have been driving the other side of the news over the last handful of weeks. And, you know, with no real moral of the story or any real outcomes that are expected at the end of this recording, but just kind of get out there some of the things I've been thinking about.

So, let's talk about Taylor and Travis first. Congratulations. That's fantastic. They announced their engagement that immediately had the dress that she wore off the shelves, a $400 dress or something, no longer available in any stores, but hundreds of knockoffs have now been populating. So yay for the clothing manufacturers.

Not being a huge follower of all of her ... well, I should say I am a huge follower of all of her smart, savvy business decisions and things ... but some of the things that make Taylor Taylor. Those that are self-proclaimed Swifties were all very interested in the fact that the announcement was actually 13 days after the engagement happened and it was on National Dog Day. Does that mean they're getting a dog?

And I thought, my goodness people, really. I mean, and this is not young kids that are entrenched with all of these. These are all ages are just fascinated with this, all of what she represents in this relationship and such. And it's just, goodness gracious. I've got really great stories, and I can't break through to a reporter, but man, oh man, if I was a dressmaker. I wish I would have designed the dress for Taylor Swift in her engagement pictures.

Now this is fascinating to me because I'm not at all immersed in pop culture. I'm super uncool as my tween and early teen kids like to point out. So it seems all a bit much of a muchness from over here.

I did notice in our industry there was outbreak of breathless media commentary about what this means for the podcast industry, that they announced their engagement on his YouTube show, and what the implications are for advertising. And does this mean that the medium has finally grown up? And all of it was just a bit ridiculous, to be perfectly honest.

I mean, I'm sure there are, as with the dress there, there are some fundamental business issues playing out here. It just seems a bit overwrought to me. Am I off base here? Even the fact that we're talking about these things on our show sort of feels a little bit, you know, lowbrow to me. Not that we're elitist in any way, but it's like, okay, look, I know that you can buy cotton candy when you go to an event, but you shouldn't have a steady diet of it. It's just not good for you.

Well, I think that there's maybe something about the fact that if you don't talk about it, are you just not, not, like how do you not discuss these things that are happening all around us? And we could really do a very deep dive into the marketing aspects of what that announcement was.

Oh, let's not though.

But we're not. But you know, but you know, you mentioned about podcasts. There was an equal number of articles that were coming out pro and con, of the number of email pitches journalists were getting that were capitalizing on this. Now, if you represent a wedding planner, perhaps your pitch is relevant. But to pigeonhole somebody into the Taylor conversation seems a little tailor made. (I know. I had to.)

But you know, look, as PR practitioners, we regularly talk about how do we capitalize on news of the day for the things that we do, but the part of that, that it maybe we assume is inherent in that conversation is it has to be relevant to who you are. And so, sure, we could have all come up with a very clever pitch to somehow be actively a part of what was happening. But was it relevant? Did it make sense? And most often it's not going to.

But the attention that this has driven, and obviously here we're spending some time talking about it as well, but that to me really points whether it was calculated in terms of how they announced it or, you know, where they decided to do it and how they decided to do it, and all that is likely. But there's no denying that she is a brilliant businesswoman. If she takes advantage of these opportunities, she does so in a way that is for the good of her brand and who she represents, the good that she does in the communities, from the places where she travels to for her shows. There's no denying that she is a smart, savvy businesswoman. And what she has done to elevate not only what her music represents, but the business that Taylor Swift is. And so I can applaud her for that.

Now, the other part of me is, let her go off and plan her wedding and let's leave her alone for a while and let her, you know, be a happily engaged and excited bride-to-be. And let's not necessarily follow her around everywhere she goes, which is ridiculous, of course. Cause I know that's not gonna be the case. But I hope someday that our podcast gets as many followers as that particular episode of the brothers podcast. And someday, perhaps people will be talking about our show on their show because.

Well, all you have to do, apparently, is announce your engagement here, Abbie, and then ...

Well, first I have to find someone to get engaged to. So that's a topic for another podcast altogether.

That's another episode of a different show.

It's got something else on my mind.

Yeah. Right. So, years and years ago, I read an essay on the impossibility of being Marilyn Monroe, and the writer was pointing out that there was a particular set of circumstances involving the media, involving the press, the paparazzi, the way in which television and the news were emerging and Marilyn Monroe as a iconic figure carrying the weight of femininity and sexuality and, you know, all of the things that sort of coalesced around this very, very talented and I think, admittedly brilliant and troubled person, as those often go together, made it simply impossible to continue to be that, and was sort of writing poetically about her own tragic life through the lens of that.

What's fascinating to me is that celebrity has evolved--certainly some people have elevated the art--to a point where there isn't the impossibility of being Taylor Swift. And her fame is so much more just statistically, numerically, through whatever lens you look at it. And yet here's a person who, without knowing, and again, I'm a complete outsider, so Swifties and non-Swifties alike probably hate everything I'm saying, but seems to be navigating those things in a relatively wholesome way. So, yay! Let's not add to the pressure that causes the impossibility of celebrity to be a life that truly actually nobody wants to live. When you get close to it, you realize how much unhappiness often goes along with that. So I wish them nothing but the best and, and wish that for everybody. Quite frankly, I think we do terrible things to the people we put on pedestals.

Yeah, well, and that's it. I think that, you know, we've talked about the role of influencers and having ownership of the responsibility that that means. That people will look to you and will rely on you for and simply because you've been elevated to that responsibility in that role. And, you know, both of them to some extent are in that role right now. And I think they, at least again, outside looking in, there is some acceptance of that responsibility and that they are doing what they can to live a life publicly that can be admired and shed good light on things and do good with the celebrity that they do have. And when it comes down to it, they're a nice young couple and they've got a wonderful life ahead. And as you said, I do wish them well. And I look forward to these other little Easter eggs that everyone seems to be thinking they're dropping of hints of what's to come. I can't figure 'em out half the time. I'm like, oh, wow, that's cool. I don't know what you're talking about.

Well, let me just say it is brilliant, whether or not it's real, to have created a brand and a following that does obsess over details and look for Easter eggs, look for hidden messages, hidden meanings, hidden clues. That, in and of itself, is, as far as brand strategy goes, just a stroke of genius because you almost don't even have to intentionally do that anymore. People will figure stuff out for you and cause a stir.

Yeah, somebody, I read something somewhere, someone said that she should do similar to Willy Wonka and the Golden Ticket and put, you know, wedding invitations in some of her new album and that, you know, those of us that would go out to purchase her album would have the opportunity to get the golden invitation to her wedding. I'm like, okay, smart. Not gonna happen.

No.

But let's talk about Cracker Barrel, shall we?

Oh, if we must.

So I was on the road to my sister's in California, and I swear every billboard was a Cracker Barrel billboard, which I've driven that road thousands of times and never noticed. So whatever that was called, my attention to ...

It's called the saliency effect. It's a well-known cognitive bias. You will start to see things once you are aware they exist or when they're on your mind.

Yeah, so that story, after many, many, many, many years of what their logo looks like, Cracker Barrel decides they are going to modernize their logo and remove the iconic older gentleman in the rocking chair and modernize the font of the logo and change the look. And practically within seconds of announcing it, you know, "how could they do this? What are they doing? Don't they remember, this is where my favorite, my grandpa used to take me for breakfast and blah, blah, blah."

Allegedly losing millions of dollars overnight in customers and customer loyalty, only to a couple days later change their mind and they're not going to really change the logo after all. So, was it a PR stunt? Well, I have a lot of opinions about the idea of a PR stunt. It's a very expensive one if that's in fact what they decided to do.

But I think the real lesson in all of this is more about respecting your history and respecting the loyalty of your customer base and not making drastic changes in order to get a new audience without paying attention to the one that's been loyal to you all along.

And all I kept thinking as I'm passing all of these billboards along the way is if in fact the intent was to do this, there was a significant amount of next steps that would have needed to have been done to roll out new menu looks, new logo or new billboards. You know, just all the things that exist out there that have the old image on it. And now, of course, none of that's going to have to happen.

The question is always, you know, is the PR person in the room when these big decisions are being made? If the PR people were in the room, what did they advise? If this was a publicity stunt, it backfired to the extent that it cost them a whole bunch of money. But the flip side, you and I would not be talking about Cracker Barrel if it wasn't making headlines over the last handful of days.

Unless we were on a road trip and it was still six hours to Meemaw's house and it was dinner time.

Yeah.

I don't know, obviously, the truth about any of these things. Again, I just want to say I think the compulsion to talk about these things when they happen is ... I'm uneasy about it. And at the same time I do think it's really interesting. You know, it wasn't that many years ago, 20 18 or 19, that IHOP, the International House of Pancakes, announced they were changing their name to IHOB, the International House of Burgers. And that caused a massive uproar and people talking about it, whatever.

And it turns out it really was just a marketing stunt to announce the new menu item. It wasn't intended to be a viral marketing campaign necessarily, it was just a tongue in cheek thing. But people took it seriously, and then they rode the wave and they kind of played that through. Of course they were never changing their name. That wasn't the point.

I don't think this is that, but I don't know. It does seem like in this situation there is a lot more social, cultural, economic, political risk involved because of the particular allegiances they were provoking.

I often go past the surface and think about the agencies behind all this. You know, somewhere out there there are agencies, brand agencies, advertising agencies, people in the world I traffic in, who are responsible for some disastrous rebrands. And there's just a whole history of those, from the untold millions spent on a new Pepsi logo that completely bombs to, you know, New Coke.

New Coke. That's where I was headed.

All these things, right? Just so many examples. And I didn't do any prep for this, didn't look up a list. I'm not going to sound terribly smart here. I'm not going to run through those. But we're aware that agencies have been paid a lot of money to fail spectacularly.

And sometimes I think about that and I just wonder what is the future of those folks? Do they end up losing other business because of their failure? What do their next new business pitches sound like? "Right, well, we're the folks that brought you the Cracker Barrel flame-out..."

I remember several years ago, I had a new business presentation. And typically when you go into those things, you're talking about, you know, this is the brilliant campaign we conducted for so-and-so, and this is the amazing thing we did for such-and-such. And this client was like, "Well, that's great. What was the one that didn't work? Tell me about the one that failed. Tell me about the one that you did, because that's really more telling than, you know, all the wonderful things you did, because I would expect you to be wonderful." And I'm like, well, that was interesting. So maybe there is a badge of honor to say this is my biggest failed account was my efforts to rebrand, fill in the blank.

But you know, organizations that over time have to look inward and see if they are still representative of their values, their mission, what they stand for. And whether that's a large national restaurant or a small local mom and pop shop, we all have to keep looking at our own business philosophies and does it still represent who we are?

When I bought the agency back at the end of 20 23, I changed my logo, I changed our color palette, I changed some things about who and how we represented ourselves. But at the core of what we are, that's exactly the same. And that's how we rolled it out. We talked about although the colors might be different, we are the same organization that you have trusted yesterday, you can trust us today.

And so the issue for me isn't so much that, you know, because we're talking about Cracker Barrel, but Cracker Barrel decided to make a change. It was more about, and maybe we'll learn this, what happened before they came out with it and what was the discussions internally that paid attention to their history to again, to the brand loyalty that I mean, clearly this hit a nerve with people and was the risk worth whatever the reward will be to make those changes?

And so, you know, it'll come out, it'll be a case study in a branding textbook soon enough and it'll have the bloggers and the experts, the case study writers that we all, you know, those of us in the business pay attention to will have some thoughts around it.

But I look at that and you know, to the same thing as, you know, what were the discussions that led you to that decision and then in this case, what was the next day's discussions that led you to say, oops, never mind, we're pulling it all back. And did we calculate the risk of both of those things? But we all watch Super Bowl commercials and you can't help but say if that made it on the air, what got denied, right? So there's always gonna be some less than stellar things out there, but somebody likes 'em and that's where those head. But it's hard to know.

You know, you raise a really great point here. And maybe this is where we can end the discussion is the issue of community relations and really engaging with stakeholders, which is a terribly overused, dehumanized way to talk about a really necessary and messy process.

One of the things that this news event has me worry about is related to this idea that you don't negotiate with terrorists. Meaning, Cracker Barrel has now shown that it's possible to make this kind of dramatic reversal simply due to a certain amount of outrage. That in and of itself does have me question whether or not this was driven by core fundamental values or by something else.

And what's missing in the conversation for me is any kind of education, community engagement, taking a stand for something, explaining the thinking behind it. And as you say, maybe that needs to have happened before this dramatic announcement, or maybe they did all that and we just don't know it because some idiot with a big platform and a loud voice started ranting about it and then other less informed idiots joined the choir. I don't know.

We've seen companies make fairly dramatic changes in their stance on issues and haven't done as much of this kind of community engagement education as I would have liked to see. In the last couple of years, companies have withdrawn their commitment to DEI, to the environment, to LGBTQ support, to all kinds of things. Some of them (Target) have paid a price economically for that. Others (Tractor Supply) seem to have maybe more aligned themselves with a core customer base. But all of these issues are fraught with potential downside risks.

And to not do that kind of thinking out loud seems to me to be the missed opportunity.

Look, I'm not thinking of anyone in particular here, but if coming out and saying, "you know what, for the past eight or 12 years, we were paying lip service to something that it turns out is not central to our mission. And while we continue to wish the best to all of XYZ folks, we're going to focus on our main thing and this is what it is." Or "there's a business reason why we're no longer able to support the environmental initiatives we once did." Listen, this is still a risky statement because you're essentially admitting that you were full of it for a long time. But that seems more honest to me at some level. So I don't know. Obviously, none of these large companies are asking me to advise them on this.

But they should, right? They should come and ask us.

Well, I don't know that they should. I mean, having an anthropologist in the room is probably a terrible idea. We'll want them to do deeply embedded research and take three years and then write a whole book about it before anything can actually happen.

But in any case, I do think that the social interactions that make brand values real in the world are the part that's at least missing from the story. Maybe it happened and we don't hear about it, but it seems to me like that's the opportunity.

If Cracker Barrel wants to change its brand, first of all, who cares? But second of all, a lot of people do care. So have that conversation with those folks and don't do it as like a smarmy marketing focus group kind of a thing.

Cracker Barrel's a phenomenon, right? I think of other brands who are not in any way related to these controversies. But you and I were just chatting earlier about Love's Travel Stops. A family business, headquartered in Oklahoma City, one of the largest privately owned companies in the United States. They're in the top 20, I think. It's now run by the three kids of the founders, and they are a phenomenon. If you are a long distance trucker, you know Love's Travel Stops as a place where you can stop, you can get a shower, you can get something to eat. There's all kinds of... And of course they're not the only one.

But this comes to mind. If they wanted to make a change and, let's say, for example, it was as silly as they wanted to change the logo from that yellow thing with the heart. They wanted to make it something else more modern. Maybe that wouldn't spark such an uproar. But I would hope that they engage their community. And I would hope the same whether it's a restaurant or a clothing brand or a department store or retailer of any kind. Engage your community in the conversation first and make that part of the process. I worry that some overpaid and under socialized marketing strategist somewhere drove Cracker Barrel off a cliff without them realizing. And maybe that's not what happened. I don't know.

Well, and we won't know.

We won't know.

We may know again if they come out with it. But your point earlier with the social issues and, you know, live your values out loud, right? If we're going to say these things and we stand behind them and to the extent that we might have to suffer the consequences of our principles. If you know those businesses that have dialed back their DE&I initiatives are getting backlash for it. On the other hand, there are plenty of people that are in support of that and they are applauding the behavior. So wherever you're going to be, wherever you're gonna fall, you have to... I think it's more about the commitment to the effort as well as the final outcome. And that's where all of these things are.

It's really to me in this particular case, because it became such a public outcry, is what did you do beforehand? Did you ask? Did you talk about, did you market test? Did you pay homage to those that have supported your business all these years that make it possible for you to be the go-to location on the road anytime you travel somewhere? And if not, then what does that say to your customer base about what you care about more?

And if it's, you know, profit over people or whatever it might be, I think this Cracker Barrel scenario is going to be a very interesting case study to watch out for as and, and hopefully we can get, you know, those of us that are in the business will find it interesting to know exactly what ended up happening.

But where I see all of these kind of headline grabbing activities over the last handful of weeks is maybe part of the reason that they are getting so much attention is that it is a break from some of the more challenging things that we're dealing with. Some of the more troublesome headlines around what's happening, not only here in the US but around the world.

And maybe, just maybe, the announcement about a pop star and a football player is what we needed to see to give us a little bit of a break from the more challenging things. And if that's what it is, then get me my People magazine. I am ready for it all.

Thanks for listening to this episode of Copper State of Mind. If you enjoyed the conversation, please share it with a colleague who might also find this podcast valuable. It's easy to do. Just click the "Share" button in the app you're listening to now to pass it along. You can also follow Copper State of Mind in Apple Podcasts, Spotify or any other podcast app. We publish new episodes every other Friday.

Copper State of Mind is brought to you by HMA Public Relations, the oldest continuously operating PR firm in Arizona. The show is recorded and produced by the team at Speed of Story, a B2B communications firm in Phoenix, and distributed by PHX.fm, the leading independent B2B podcast network in Arizona. For all of us here at Speed of Story and PHX.fm, I'm Adrian McIntyre. Thanks for listening and for sharing the show with others if you choose to do so. We hope you'll join us again for another episode of Copper State of Mind.