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The Creative Sound Play of Jazz Music: A Conversation with Saxophonist Hayes Greenfield
Episode 56 • 6th September 2024 • The Jeff Bradbury Show • Jeffrey Bradbury - TeacherCast Educational Network
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In this episode, host Jeffrey Bradbury interviews jazz musician and sound artist Hayes Greenfield. They discuss the concept of creative sound play for young learners and its benefits for executive function skills and social-emotional learning. They also explore the importance of music education in developing active listening skills and cognitive flexibility. Hayes shares his journey as a musician and offers advice on encouraging students to continue playing and improvising. The conversation touches on the role of music in building community and the challenges and rewards of composing music for film. In this conversation, Hayes Greenfield discusses his approach to music composition and the importance of sound and silence. He shares his experiences working on film scores and the challenges of finding the right balance between music and visuals. Hayes also talks about his favorite jazz musicians and the different ensembles he enjoys playing with. He explains his concept of creative sound play and how it can be used to enhance children's self-esteem and creativity. The conversation concludes with a discussion on the role of technology in jazz music and the future of the genre. If you are a new listener to TeacherCast, we would love to hear from you.  Please visit our Contact Page and let us know how we can help you today!

Conversation Takeaways

  • Creative sound play can help develop executive function skills and social-emotional learning in young learners.
  • Music education is important for developing active listening skills and cognitive flexibility.
  • Practicing an instrument can be challenging but is necessary for improvement.
  • Improvisation allows students to express themselves and develop their musical skills.
  • Composing music for film requires collaboration with the director and understanding their vision. Finding the right balance between music and visuals in film scores can be challenging
  • Creative sound play can enhance children's self-esteem and creativity
  • Technology has a place in jazz music, but the simplicity of a musical conversation is still important
  • Jazz music is here to stay, but there is a need for more simplicity and beauty in the genre
  • Listening to each other is key to understanding and connection

Chapters

  • 00:00 Introduction and Background
  • 02:00 Hayes Greenfield: Musician and Sound Artist
  • 03:08 Creative Sound Play for Young Learners
  • 06:21 Using Sound Play for Transitions
  • 11:01 Developing Executive Function Skills Through Sound Play
  • 13:26 The Importance of Music Education
  • 18:20 Encouraging Students to Continue Playing and Improvising
  • 21:14 The Role of Music in Building Community
  • 25:26 The Challenges and Rewards of Composing Music for Film
  • 31:58 In Search of Resolution
  • 33:01 Balancing Music and Visuals
  • 33:38 Musical Inspiration
  • 35:24 Ensemble Preferences
  • 37:43 Writing and Notating Music
  • 38:47 The Power of Intuition
  • 39:55 The Role of a Conductor
  • 44:08 The Importance of Listening
  • 45:29 Creative Sound Play
  • 47:24 Enhancing Children's Creativity
  • 50:33 The Role of Technology in Jazz
  • 51:36 The Future of Jazz
  • 53:00 Simplicity and Beauty in Jazz
  • 54:34 The Importance of Listening

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About our Guest:

Hayes Greenfield is the founder of Creative Sound Play (CSP), a sound-based, generative learning system for Pre-K, as well as an award-winning jazz musician, notable film composer, and innovative educator. His book, Creative Sound Play for Young Learners (Routledge, Eye on Education Series, 2024), invites educators to use sound-making as collaborative educational play. Hayes began working as a teaching artist in public and private K-12 schools. He created and implemented curricula for K-12 students, and professional development workshops for special needs District 75 teachers in New York City. Notably, he created a Pre-K program for PNC Bank’s “Grow Up Great Initiative,” devoted five years to codifying CSP at the Lenox Hill Early Childhood Center’s Head Start program, and consulted at Bank Street Head Start. Founder and lead educator for CSP, Hayes guides Pre-K teachers in his sound-based pedagogy and offers in-person and remote coaching sessions to accompany his self-paced video curriculum. An exceptional speaker Hayes has presented at the NAEYC, NHSA, A Joyous Celebration of Ideas, the Next Wave Center for Artistry and Scholarship, and other conferences. A jazz musician, Hayes is proud to be endorsed by Yamaha, Vandoren, and Eventide. He has released 10 critically acclaimed CDs including two award-winning family CD’s Jazz-A-Ma-Tazz and Music for a Green Planet, and has performed at festivals and venues throughout the US, Canada, and Europe. Hayes’ Jazz-A-Ma-Tazz school assembly program has reached over 300,000 young people and his music has been wonderfully received and reviewed in The New York Times, The New Yorker, Wall Street Journal, Billboard, Child Magazine, Downbeat, Jazz Times and more*.* As film composer, Hayes has scored more than 70 films, documentaries, commercials, animations, and TV specials.

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Transcripts

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

Hello everybody and welcome to the TeacherCast educational network. name is Jeff Bradbury. Thank you so much for joining us today and making TeacherCast your home for professional development. This is the Jeff Bradbury show episode number 56. Today I am excited to have a fantastic guest on today doing one of my favorite topics. Today we're talking all about music, music and sound. And as you guys know from following me, my roots.

our music education. was a music educator for 20 years conducting playing in orchestras

I am so excited to have my guest on the show today. We're going to talk about not only his journey through being a fantastic jazz musician, but also on a fantastic new book that he just released. And I'm really excited to share all of this with you guys. This is the first time you're listening to this show. Thank you so much for being here. You can of course check out all of our archives over at teachercast .net forward slash podcast.

And we hope that you guys like and subscribe this. We are of course available on Apple podcast, Spotify and wherever you guys get your audio and video shows. My guest today, as I mentioned, is a fantastic jazz musician and also the author of a book called Creative Sound Play for Young Learners. I want to bring on today my good friend Mr. Hayes Greenfield. Hayes, how are you today? Welcome to TeacherCast.

Hayes (:

Thank you so much, Jeff. It's beautiful to be here. I certainly appreciate the opportunity to speak with you and to speak with your audience.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

I am so excited that you're here. I've been looking forward to this conversation in 13 years of doing this. I could probably count on three or four fingers the opportunities that I've had to actually interview music teachers, musicians, and you have had an amazing career. You've you've done a lot in the world of jazz. You've done a lot of world in you know, composing and playing and tell us a little bit about

Who is Hayes Greenfield?

Hayes (:

Hayes Greenfield is a musician and a sound artist, an electroacoustic musician as well, a composer. I've worked with sound design, an educator. I love sharing what I do with young people of all ages from zero to 103. lately I've been heavily involved with creative sound play.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

and talk to us a little bit about that. We were talking about this before the recording. How did you come up with this concept? What is it and how can we learn more about it?

Hayes (:

Okay, so first of all, for any of you pre -K teachers out there who are listening, this has absolutely nothing to do with music. Nothing. And I appreciate, Jeff, you sharing everybody my expertise as a musician and I...

I am a master musician. I've been on the scene for quite a long time and have records out and all that stuff. But for teachers, this is about sound and it's about something that we can all do very easily. And all we focus on is pitch. Can you give me a high -pitched sound?

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

wow.

Hayes (:

Now can you give me a low pitch sound? Okay, now can you give me a sound that's not like a, not that you're humming? Can you, like, make a bird sound, a tweet for me. Give me a tweet. okay, so you're doing some effects there. But I want to hear you vocalize a bird.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

you

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

I was not prepared for this. Tweet, Tweety Tweet? How's that? I don't have that one programmed here.

Hayes (:

Tweet,

Especially we make sound we all love to make sound you love to make sound you love to listen to sound you love to conduct people making sound so Sound is pitch high like a bird tweet tweet tweet tweet low like a lion's roar Loud

Hayes (:

Hear me being soft? And long.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

Yes.

Hayes (:

and short.

Hayes (:

And that's what sound is.

Hayes (:

Children adore making sound and children adore making an intentional sound in a deliberate way. So as soon as we plug into working with the child, anybody really, making sound, we're beginning to develop their executive function skills.

and this is inhibitory control, working memory, cognitive flexibility. And because sound making is in general collaborative, like orchestras and bands and people on the subway riding together or whatever, that it's about social -emotional learning. Because we're doing it, we're having fun. And so that's kind of like the

the basic element of it.

Yeah, you got another question for me? I mean, I can keep rolling, you know.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

Thank

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

Well, you know, it's interesting because as as educators here, we're always looking for different ways for our students to communicate with each other with our students to communicate with us to have them have that competence of standing up and projecting. I mean, even myself going into teaching middle school this year, you know, one of my main functions is having a kid stand up and just be able to be comfortable in their own body to.

Hayes (:

Right.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

share themselves to talk about yourselves to do all of that stuff. you know, whether that's with a slide presentation or with a saxophone or with their hands and their mouths. It's all about having that confidence to express and to have expression on your life.

Hayes (:

Great.

Hayes (:

Beautiful, beautiful. what's the, what I'm focusing on in pre -K, and this is really kind of like I've zeroed in, what is the time a day that is the most challenging time for teachers?

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

I would have to say between 11 and 1.

Hayes (:

Okay, I'm not referring to necessary, it was a trick question, I didn't say it properly. But it's, the most challenging times of the day for teachers in pre -K is transition times. And transitions happen every 30 minutes. Getting the kids from the floor to the tables.

Getting them to put on their coats, getting them to go outside, getting them to go down the hall for lunch, getting them to to nap, getting up from a nap, getting them to clean up, getting them to move from the puzzle area to somewhere else, whatever we're working on.

Transitions present a terrible problem for teachers because it takes a lot of time and if they feel that they have to have a big suitcase full of tools. And what we forget is, is that

Hayes (:

Children love to make sound.

We've all tuned sound out.

Hayes (:

And when you provide an opportunity for a child to make a deliberate and an intentional sound, or an intentional sound in deliberate way, those two are interchangeable, right? All of a sudden, it engages them. They focus. They love doing, there's nothing that a child loves doing more than making sound. And primarily because it enables them to control their environment. Because sound is immediate.

It takes up space even though we can't see it. And they don't have to learn anything new. All they have to do is just be their lovable selves. So, for example, here's a transition that everybody can use immediately. And why don't you do it with me as I start to do. One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. One!

two, three, four, one, two, three, four.

Hayes (:

Okay, so what did I do? You were just doing it, you were mouthing it, I'm watching, you weren't using your voice, which you should have, but that's okay. Well, I'm sorry? Right, exactly. So, the in the class, you don't even have to ask somebody to join in, three and four year olds, they'll jump in right away. And as soon as they do that, what are they doing? They're plugging into their active listening skills.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

Okay, the kids are going to bed. Kids are in bed.

Hayes (:

Again, this is about executive functions. They're listening before they do it. They're following you. They're following me. That's inhibitory control. They're getting a sense of the different ways that we're doing it. So that's working memory. And they're following kind of like an audio direction. They're not even being told, but they're participating, calling response. And they're going up and down. So they're dealing with cognitive flexibility. You're in a group. They're doing it together. They're having fun. So right there is a seemingly.

very benign and unimportant activity, which is really plugging into active listening skills, executive function skills, social -emotional learning, mindfulness, because they know where they are. And as soon as you get your kids counting with

Bam! The transition's done. And that's all of 10 seconds. Then we move the kids from the floor to the tables. So right there is a very simple, very simple transition. And now, in 20 minutes, 35 minutes, you have another transition. Bam! What do we know as musicians? What do we know? You know, if we work out in the gym, we practice. And here's so...

So transitions become these incredible times, these windows, these times throughout the day to practice. And when you practice an activity like that, just counting, it's so simple. And then you can change it up. I was at a medium volume, then I went to a loud volume, and then I got quiet, and then I came back to a medium. So a lot of times the kids are going to stay up being loud.

And if you do that a few times a day, in the beginning, the kids are going to all of sudden plug into it. And they're going to want to be doing it after they're going to take agency. They're going to have to become aware of it because

Hayes (:

Here is the beauty of transitions that we forget about transitions. Part of the problem that teachers get so stressed out about it is because they're so repetitive. But repetition helps children feel safe and calm because they learn that they know what to expect, what's coming down the pipeline. So all of a sudden, they're going to want to take agency. And I have teachers.

that say that the kids are lining up and before they even say anything, one person's listening to who's going to start it off. And then all of a sudden, they could be counting. One, two, three, four. Because they've got to count the kids all the time. All of a sudden, if you play with that and you add some fun into it with sound,

It's infinite learning.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

It's amazing how quickly students of all ages will start to pick things up. mean, you we as a as a culture are very repetitive or very call and response. We're very I, you know, I do we do you do those kinds of things. And it doesn't matter if that's a pre K thing or even in my case, a middle school or a high school thing. I mean, you can do that in a professional orchestra. And after all, that's part of and I'm going to talk in general terms.

Hayes (:

Right.

Hayes (:

Right.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

that is the basis of jazz, right? Like you got a solo, you got a group, you got a solo, you got it, you know, it's, there's a formative structure here is where I'm going.

Hayes (:

Yes. Well, there is. It starts with active listening. It starts with active listening and then you have trust and you start to communicate with each other. And it doesn't have to be with words. We can go...

Very important. Because when you start to do that, then all of sudden the kids are really like, whoa, that's an interesting sound. And then they start really having play. And then, and this is like something for kids who have language delays, that all of a sudden I have teachers who come in and say, know,

My kids are being aggressive when they're hitting and grabbing because they're having trouble formulating the words or understanding the words.

Hayes (:

So they're not able to communicate what their needs are. And they get frustrated. And that's why they're grabbing and they're hitting, because they want to be heard. Everybody wants to be heard. You know, want to be heard. want to be understood. You want to be helped. All of a sudden now, because this teacher's come in and has led these kind of quick focus warm -ups. Blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah. This kind of silly, silly syllables, silly sounds.

these kids who are non -verbal are going, or language delays, are going, wow, they're coming up with their own sounds and they're no longer being aggressive. They're just communicating and able to say whatever they need to say, even if it's not with a word. it's, and what her job, you know, one of the things that is,

really kind of...

Hayes (:

You know, what teachers provide is license and opportunity for a student to take risks, to listen in new ways, to discuss, to be sensitive to different kinds of things. So...

Like for example, one of the things, and this works for any age, because many teachers tell me that they like these moments, this whole thing about mindfulness and being mindful. Well, if we take moments and just listen to our surroundings, actively listen to our surroundings, and

Hayes (:

then discuss the sounds that we hear. You know, like you could be out there, you could be listening and hear a dog barking off in the distance and something else, maybe there's some people out there talking or have some kids in the playground playing. Then all of a sudden there's a truck with a really loud horn, right? Now, is it a truck? Is it a car? And that loudness will obliterate the picture that's here, right? Because it's like, know,

And we can then take that experience and kids could make those sounds and tell that story right there. And when they do that, they're having the opportunity to make different kinds of sounds at different levels and different pitches and different kinds of stuff. So it's cognitive flexibility and working memory.

And they're given the opportunity to do it together in a group, so it's social -emotional learning, and to be kind of non -judgmental and try something new, and they'll love it. They absolutely adore it.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

You had mentioned earlier that the concept of cognitive flexibility and you know, especially being a dad of 10 year olds right now, you my wife and I are constantly keeping them in music. They're playing. They've got two right now playing instruments. They're doing their thing. What is your thought on this of, every child needs to be growing up with some kind of a music education background, being able to, you know, exercise themselves, free themselves and get that sound going.

Hayes (:

Yeah.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

Why do you think that there is a huge correlation? Or do you think there's a huge correlation between being able to have some kind of a musical sense of yourself? And, you know, executive function, I would guess you would call it later on in life. I mean, I find I do things a certain way because I, I hear pitches and I hear tempo and I hear a beat and I hear a rhythm in my head constantly. Where do you think that comes in? And why is it important that we start students at a very early age?

on that musical education track and keep it going for as long as possible.

Hayes (:

Because that's about active listening skills. It's about an abstraction of how you... Music is abstract, right? It's like it's not... It's the closest thing to music. mean, music is the closest thing to magic. And I think it's very important because it helps us to... It helps it build community. And so, for example...

That scene of three -year -olds and four -year -olds listening to the people in the yard and the horn being loud, all of a sudden comes in and you can be playing that. So that's like a bunch of people playing a Mozart piece. That's a string quartet. That can be looked at as the similarity of the string quartet where everybody has a role.

know there's the two violins, the viola, the cello, and each playing one's playing the bass part, one's playing the, you know. So...

And that helps to provide an opportunity again for, it doesn't have to necessarily be music, know, notes on a page played with an instrument. It can be sounds orchestrated in a room. And that, what that does is builds executive function skills, which is what we were talking about. Those are the things that are so important to

developing as a thoughtful.

Hayes (:

human being, inhibitory controls, to think first, to not go on automatic pilot, to be able to follow through, to be able to do things that you don't want to do. Practicing an instrument is very difficult. on a daily process, you have to do it daily, even if you don't want to. And the scales can be boring, right? And it can be something that can be very real drudgery.

But you do it because as a musician, you do it because you love the sound of the instrument that you're playing. Right? mean, that instrument, that is who that person is.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

do you remember the first time that you put an instrument in your hand?

Hayes (:

Yes, I had, and I, it's, you know, yes, and I knew that when I wanted to play saxophone I didn't have access to it. It took several years before I could get access to it. finally when I did, it was like, wow. And this guy laid me on a horn and he put me in a room and I was 15, I was 15, which is late.

And he came back into the room a half hour later and said, man, you're playing the blues. You're a natural. So I just said, OK. And I would just play for hours in a stairwell. yes, and it's the sound of an, the sound. Everything to me is really about the quality of the sound and the quality of the line.

Enough, yep.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

What was it about the saxophone of all other instruments?

Hayes (:

Well, know, was originally, I would have probably played piano. There was a situation that was kind of difficult when I was growing up.

And I'm more intuitive with playing piano in many ways. But the saxophone's just got a human quality of sound. And when you breathe into it, and it's your own, it's... I don't even know how to explain it. It just touches my heart. It's like a really beautiful sound can make me cry.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

and talk to us about making that transition from playing by yourself in the stairwell to concert saxophone jazz musician. What was that adventure like for you and and and talk to us a little bit about how you know for those of us who have kids of our own and music programs or students of our own who know some of our kids obviously are in band and orchestra and stuff. What can we do to encourage our students to keep

playing see the fruits of our labor because as you mentioned, practicing is difficult. It's a it's a skill that you need to keep up with.

Hayes (:

Well, for example, when I did the Jazzmatazz program, I had a live interactive show that I did all over the country with a trio that I would take out on the road, and for assembly programs and workshops. And one of the things that I do in that, which makes learning scales much more fun, is

A lot of music directors would say to me, I want to have more of my kids improvise, but they don't want to do it, they're afraid. And I would say, okay, so I'd go into a classroom and I'd ask them how they were doing it. You know, they'd have the piano player playing the chord and the bass player would be playing and the drummer would be bashing pretty much.

and the solos would get up and they're trying to learn their scales and they don't really know where the scales are in the instrument. If they play a clunker note, I mean in today's world everybody is so uptight about sounding wrong and sounding bad and they'll play a bad note. And so they're very uptight about just even playing and playing the instrument. What very few...

pedagogy is about. Nobody really deals with it in this context. And you'll appreciate this, being a classical musician.

Hayes (:

I tell kids, I say, you know, it's just like talking. You're talking about something, you're really excited about the movie, you just thought, man, it was amazing. And whoa, wow, whoa, whoa, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? It's all just line. And then you say, now you pick up your horn.

And you just go, ba -ba -dee, boo -boo -boo -boo, by themselves. And you go, just something, and I play it, and they'll do something different. And then you get the kids playing together. But you get rid of the piano. Get rid of a chordal instrument. All we want to have is the drums going very simply. Ting, ting, ta -ting, ting, ta -ting. Really gentle, very gentle. Just time. Da, da, da, da, da, with a hi -hat. Da, da, da, da, da, da, da, right?

And then all of a sudden, the bass is going... Doesn't matter what they're playing. They could just be playing chromatic notes. Then all of a sudden, you start to have the soloists start to play. And then this is counterpoint. So there no bad notes. We've now eliminated the bad notes.

And all we're doing is improvising and telling stories with our instrument. And all of a sudden there's a conversation happening between what you're talking about, the musicians, and how is that happening? And now, no longer does learning scales be, know, and improvising be...

scary and frightening and the nemesis, now they become your friends because the more you are able to play with the... the more you develop on the instrument, the more you're able to get to hear.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

And that's that's beautiful advice. I think when you look at something like practicing as a chore versus right, if I have to do this, and yeah, we know we call it woodshedding and are you know, like, yeah, you have to get through you have to figure out some things. But when you just start to have those conversations musically, it's another world.

Hayes (:

it's a drag.

Hayes (:

Right, which city?

Hayes (:

But right, you have there is drudgery. There is some drudgery that you have to do. But, you know, that depends. It's like, you know, if you really get into doing long tones and then, know, then part of it is also and here is is here is very important. And I said and I would teach this as well that how you approach how you approach your lesson is very important. And keeping a journal.

and keeping the material fresh. So if you're working on, you know, scales, which scales, how fast, then that's one area, then you can be working on arpeggios, and that's something else, then you can be working on like, you know, a whole tone thing or a diminished thing. You you major your minor scales with certain different, and then you can take a little line. What four notes are you playing? Are you, and how many different keys can you play it in?

So you have, let's say, have like 10 different things that you're working on. And maybe a tune that you're playing, the material, the repertoire. So you have these different areas that you're working on. You're deciding, OK, I'm going to spend an hour a day practicing, 15 minutes on those four things. One thing is going to be warming up and some technical stuff, and then into it. And if you write down every day what you're doing, and you say, OK, I've got these.

these six things that I'm going to work on for the next three weeks and I'm going to do them incrementally. so maybe four days you're working on the same thing and then two days you're working on the same thing and then one day you pick it up and all you want to do is do long tones. All you want to do is sit and play a long tone. And you're inspired because you're listening to it, you're really hearing it and you're able to play that note

quietly and loudly without the intonation changing, right? And you're really having a good time. And you're lost in it. You go with it. You say, forget the other stuff that you were practicing. This is because you're so concentrated. And the next day, you don't have to do it that way. Unless the next day you pick it up and that's, you got, you can't wait to get to that sound. As long as you're like really being really deliberate and intentional, bam.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

Well, it's one thing to practice for yourself. Come up with what you want and focus on those things. It's a completely different ball game to start really composing for others. Talk to us a little bit about that transition from, know, you're just a saxophone not suggest, but I mean, you're a saxophone player doing your thing to suddenly your score in films. You're doing documentaries. You've got this, you know, the career shift on what was that like?

Hayes (:

Okay.

That was, some of that can be really wonderful and some of it can be frustrating. Okay, first of all, it depends on who you're working with. It's really about, writing music for film is really about the director and his vision or her vision. The director's vision is what's paramount, right? Because what they're coming to you to

to

turn to... Well, if a director really hasn't spent much time thinking about the music and what they're looking for, it can be very frustrating. Unless you have sometimes... I have somebody that I worked with recently who I adored and he really didn't know what to... He had an idea but it was very vague and I did a film on nuclear...

called In Search of Resolution. And Bob is somebody I've worked with many, many times. And he kind of just said, you know, Hayes, I don't really know where to put the music. And I know that you're talented and you're sensitive to this stuff. Just go tell your story. And he gave me free rein like that. And it was beautiful. That was an opportunity to really like, you know.

Hayes (:

But there are many other experiences that can be frustrating where you know We got to fight with the director and you say no no no, but at the end you got to acquiesce, you know So I mean there was a film I did where the majority of the music I wrote she loved it I mean she loved it, but she didn't use it because at the end it was a documentary She felt like it took away It took away from what was happening in the moment. It was it was the nurse film and and I totally understood

It was like, I understand, because there's so many poignant, it's a documentary on American nurses, and it's so tense. then sometimes, and then most of the time it can be frustrating because I did a lot of documentaries and the music is mixed low. So it doesn't really get the prominence that you really want to

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

When you wake up in the morning, you open up Spotify, some music app, who's on your playlist? Who do you listen to?

Hayes (:

this morning I was listening to Eddie Harris compared to what? You know that tune? it's great. It's the one tune that just gets every ounce of my body.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

So

Hayes (:

I can't stop. just, can't. It's like, it's so hip.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

explain it to somebody who doesn't know who Eddie Harris is.

Hayes (:

Well it's actually Les McCann and Eddie Harris. they're like, it's just soulful. It's soulful music that's got a beat that just makes my feet just move.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

What was the reason to?

Hayes (:

I love Abby Lincoln, I love Pharoah Sanders, millions of people.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

If you could play with any jazz musician in history, would it be?

Hayes (:

Probably felonious monk.

he's just so quirky. I've been very blessed with some of the people I've played with. I did some sessions with just a duo with Ornette Coleman. I would say one of the drummers would definitely be Elvin Jones because of his sense of time and meter and the depth of it, just the...

the sheer intensity of it.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

Do you prefer, and you know, there's so many different adjectives that come before the word jazz, but when you're playing, do you prefer larger ensembles, smaller ensembles, you and a drum and maybe a bass? Like what's your ideal ensemble look like?

Hayes (:

I think...

You know, I like projects and I have one project that's a duo with a bassist, with Dean Johnson. We have a record out that's on Sunnyside. And that's a very important record for me. We recorded it live and it's very intimate. I've been playing with Dean for 30, 40 years. So it's really about just getting together and it's like having a conversation.

And then I have another quartet with Dean with a pianist and a drummer. that's nice too because the chords are there. It's the drummer. But as soon as you start adding drums, think on some level you lose a little of the intimacy. Because there's this immediate thing that happens without drums, whether it's kind of like a trio with, for me.

I'm just only speaking for myself, but yet I used to love doing duos with Rashid Ali. So it really all depends on what's... And then even some of my music, one of the things that I like to do is I think I change it up. So I might have a bossa nova and then maybe kind of a funkier tune and then some free, something that's free or free -based type of music or like a...

or there have been people that have really inspired me. Like I have a tune called Homage to Pharaoh for Pharaoh Saunders. And I also have a tune called Orneticism. I wrote a tune for Jackie Byrd called Byrd Inspired. So I have tunes that are written for people that have touched me or have their lives touched me.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

You know, you've obviously got this full album of compositions that is out there that's in your head when you're when you're actually creating this stuff. Is there ever a spot where you're writing it down or you just have all this stuff up in your head and it's always going to be then that's where it lives or I mean, do you ever get a chance to actually sit down and write that out? Write any of that stuff out into sheet music?

Hayes (:

Okay, so I write out the melody of the tunes and the chord changes and the harmony. The improvisations, I never write that out. could never. You know, I'm dyslexic, which is part of what's...

I'm not a great reader.

Hayes (:

So, which is also kind of informed so much of creative sound play. And this is something that I've, in the last couple years, I've really come to realize because it's about intuition. you we talk, you talk about like the questions about how do you get kids to like really become more aware of and why it's important. We don't teach anybody about really intuition. And intuition is a really important...

Hayes (:

know, intuition is so much faster than intellect.

And that's related to listening. It's related to how do we listen to each other? How do we have a conversation where we're not listening to answer the conversation per se or the question or trying to anticipate it, but how do you have a conversation that's going in and around? For example, you and I even have had this. I started off talking about creative sound playing. You've switched it.

And I should be asking you about some of these questions, know, because you experience all this stuff. I mean, what is it for you, for example, when you were conducting the symphonies, right? And you're sitting there and you're really in the moment with the orchestra.

Hayes (:

Are you watching the music as it's going by? Are you maneuvering the... How are you getting the orchestra to give you what you want them to give you?

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

You know, there's a great question. There is and I was actually having this conversation today with the music teacher friend of mine. The answer goes like this. A conductor has one job. And do you know what that one job is? It's to inspire. The orchestra doesn't need you. They have everything they have is already on a piece of paper. You know, one can say your job is to start and stop.

One can say your job is to make it go faster or slower. But right there on the paper, it says everything that you need. So how do you get an ensemble of seven musicians or 107 musicians? And the only answer is you're just there to inspire. Now you throw the extra added on of you now have a stage in front of you and you have people singing on that stage.

Then you have the extra pressure of they're doing it in a different language that you don't understand. Then you do it as then you add the extra layer of every time that you look away from your music and you look up those singers are in a completely different spot on the stage and you have to figure out a where they are be what are they sounding and see what do they need from you. And when you dive that back isn't that jazz whether it be you as a saxophone and a bass and a piano and a drum.

you're there just to inspire the next person to do their thing. Whether it be hold back and play that percussion line as smooth as possible, like you've already shared or hey, it's your turn for the solo, I'm gonna let you have it or nope, it's my turn for the solo. Because as a conductor, there are times where you need to stand up and take control. And there's a lot of times 80 % of the time where they don't need you. You're just there looking as they often say,

You're the one on stage looking in the wrong direction, not holding an instrument. So what is your job? And it's to inspire. It's no different than being a parent. I can't make my kids do anything. I can only hope that they follow the the examples that we're all trying to lead here, right? And it's no different than being a middle school teacher. It's not my job to teach. It's your job to follow and learn, right? And so

Hayes (:

Ha ha ha ha.

Hayes (:

I

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

If you take the conversation that the stick doesn't mean anything, I had a conducting teacher once say it's the illusion of power. The stick doesn't make any sound. And there's several orchestras that are out there that just don't have conductors, period. Hundreds of people on stage, they don't need you. So what's your job? Number one, it's to look good. And number two, it's just to inspire people to do things.

Hayes (:

Right, Orpheus.

Hayes (:

huh.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

It's a it it it it you know at the core it is a conversation it is call and response stick moves they play loud stick moves they make an accent it's no different so on one hand you're not making any sound on the other hand they are the sound that is the instrument the orchestra is the instrument that you have so there's a lot of similarities between conducting a Mahler symphony and playing in a jazz trio

Hayes (:

Yeah, absolutely.

Hayes (:

So I hadn't, this reminds me of a, that's all very true, I never thought about it. And it reminds me of an experience I had with, I'd done a film score for the cleanup of the World Trade Center called Your Grand Zero. And I had gone to Ireland to record it and it had like a 10 piece chamber ensemble.

And I was in the studio and I had hired a conductor because I didn't feel I could, you know, that was my gig. So I was in the studio and the music wasn't going down the way I really wanted it. And I ended up just going and being in the room with the musicians so I could hear, I didn't hear it in the control room, I could hear it live. I could hear all the instruments just air, right? And I just sat there and as the music was...

being done, I didn't even stand, I stood in the corner but I was just so focused on what I was hearing in my head as to what was being played that all of a sudden the ensemble came together. And the French horn player came up to me after he says, man I'm so glad you came into the room because as soon as you came into the room I knew what to do. And it was startling to me.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

music is a human connection. You can define it as it's a it's a pre determined or I would even say a pre undetermined series of sounds and silence. Right? That that's that's loosely how you defy music. It's it's it's sounds and silence all put together in different ways, right?

Hayes (:

Yeah, well everything is in.

Hayes (:

sounds and silence, yes.

Hayes (:

Okay, so what creative sound play is, because this is kind of like, it's really about the interaction, it's the interaction of sound and silence over the duration of time, which is really the definition of what we're talking about in terms of music. But I'm making it accessible because I'm only dealing with pitch, high or low, anywhere you want. How you want to do it?

which kids love to do, and loud or quiet or long and short. And so anybody can work with this. And you can use it for Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

So that's kind of like, and it is music. I'm getting into trouble here. And Jeff, going to, because I tell everybody this has absolutely nothing to do with music. Because, and this is how I have to frame it, and this is what I was going to tell you earlier that I didn't tell you. I frame it that it has nothing to do with music.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

you

Hayes (:

Because pre -K teachers are my heroes. And they realize, they do it for the passion, they do it for the calling, not for the money. And they realize that they're the first formal teacher in a person's life. And how that child feels about themselves as a learner could be how they feel about themselves for life.

They're a good learner, they do well, but a pre -K teacher, because everybody is so stressed out in today's world, and there's so much on them.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

percent agree.

Hayes (:

The majority of them have never taken a class, a music class, they don't play instruments, they all love music, everybody loves music, we all need music. But what happens is they hear creative sound playing, they go sound, and they think, you mean music, the sound of music, this is about music. And they shut down. And they get overwhelmed. And they get stressed out. And it's like...

It's like getting rid of the piano so that somebody can just play with counterpoint. is so difficult. And I understand it. It's like I'm not ever expecting a teacher to teach music. We're not teaching music. Creative sound play has nothing. It is all about music. It's just about sound. It's about...

listening to sound is taking those mindful moments to listen so that when a kid comes into the classroom and he's really loud and it's jarring instead of saying, stop, you're so loud, you should be using your inside voice, you say, wow, that was great, a little loud for me, I bet you can't do that quieter. And the kid says, can do and they do it quiet, and then they do it medium, they do it quiet, they do it medium, they do it loud. And all of a sudden they're realizing that what they do matters, that they're part of a community.

And they're developing the chops. They're developing the technique because sound is immediate. It's here. It's in the room. You hear it. So it's like, you know, as as teachers become aware of sound and sensitive to sound, can have a kid make a picture, a painting, and have them make that painting with the intention of how they want their fellow students to make it sound.

And all of a sudden it's like, wow, man, it's it's Beethoven. Right? Or it becomes a, just becomes a roadmap for how they want that to sound. And that's about creativity. That's about leading. That's about, you know, and the whole thing about calling responses, it enhances children's self -esteem. If you're a good caller, and then if you're a good responder.

Hayes (:

because that's part of ensemble playing, it's part of leading. Leading and ensemble, jazz, it's about how well you listen, how well when you're taking the solo. If you're taking a really nice solo and the drummer's bashing through it and you're not hearing it, the drummer, Art Blakey said the whole role, the great drummer Art Blakey from the Jazz Messengers, Jazz Cat, the whole role of the rhythm section.

is to make the soloist sound the best they can. So it's, it's, that's where it's, we lose our ego. You know, the ego is supposed to be like, well, it's really about, it's about

Who's leading?

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

It's that conversation. It's not easy. There's a lot of that woodshedding. It takes a takes a village to raise a musician. At the same time, a musician can do a lot, but they always need that ensemble around them. The website is creative sound play .com. The composer is Hayes greenfield .com. We are going to make sure that we have links to everything over here on our show notes. This is the Jeff Bradbury show episode 56.

And Hayes as we look forward to what is coming in the future.

ually. And we went started in:

Hayes (:

huh. I will.

Hayes (:

Mm

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

that technology has changed much about jazz or is jazz really that conversation between two minds, just having a musical conversation with it? And we can end with, where do you see jazz going in the future given this digital world and digital technology? again, if it all comes down to just two to three people having a musical conversation, is there a place for technology?

Hayes (:

Okay, so first of all there is a place for technology and I do stuff in surround sound. I do stuff in immersive solo with a bunch of loopers and a whole bunch of effects pedals but everything is organically done with the acoustic. Everything starts out as an acoustic. So yes there is and I have a trio that I've played with that. I think...

Jazz is here to stay. I think there's all different kinds of jazz. I think the sadness that we're experiencing in many of the art forms, and it's not just relegated to jazz. I think our society is, we have tools now and everything is systemized. And we have young people who are true.

as technicians, cats who are kids and people who are playing saxophones and every instrument, just phenomenal chops. Phenomenal. And I think that unfortunately I think that the simplicity of being able to just tell a simple story that

a line that can really move you is no longer as important. When I came up, I remember it was about you've got to be able to play the blues, You've got to be able to play a simple blues and really move somebody.

Hayes (:

It's everything is so just even playing a beautiful melody. You the older I get, the more the more I'm becoming just the simplicity of it. Simple is so hard to play something really simple that's poignant, that's not trite. You know, photographer once told me years ago, I was 16, I was 15 when he told me this. He said to me,

It's really easy to photograph dark. It's really hard to photograph something that's beautiful and not be trite. And that is the most challenging thing. So I think that it's sad. think that critics and people think that they're not supposed to understand something and it's harsh and it's loud. And yes, we are living in harsh and in many ways very harsh times.

But I think that the beauty...

Hayes (:

I think we're missing the beauty and the gentleness.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

Is there a solution for that?

Hayes (:

Yeah, I think people have to listen to each other. think that's, you know, I was listening to a podcast of yours earlier with this guy Alex, I think was two podcasts before, and he was saying that, you know, his whole, like his drive of bringing people together and making a difference, you know, that's what I've been doing for 30 years.

outside of, you know, it's, and making it, trying to make, that's what creative sound play is. You know, and this came out of my work with kids with special needs who are autistic and they, and some other issues and, you know, it was, it was, and it was because I was listening to them.

And I went, whoa, sound. And we're talking about just making high sounds and low sounds and no sounds and a clap. I mean, I had a kid come into a room that I was teaching and he didn't want to be there. He was like 15 or 16, just totally angry that he was there. Big kid, man. And he went up to the wall and he sat against the wall and his nose was like literally two inches from the wall. I was scared of this kid.

Because his arms were huge. This guy was big. And I was passing a clap around the room. And went by him the first time. The second time he jumped out and clapped with us. And all of a sudden, man, all of a sudden he was happy to be in class. And he just changed. And it was about clapping.

It was about having sound, being able to make a sound and be able to be thought of not because of his body being scary, but he was part of the, he became my wingman. I got this kid up to sing for the class. I got him up to tap dance with sneakers on. So it's like.

Hayes (:

You know, I think we have to listen again. And that's where it's like we're also sound asleep. We have to, so many teachers tell me, man, I am so thankful. And I think, you maybe they don't, maybe they don't want to do this. And they do, they just want to relax. They just want to listen to sound. They want to talk about it. They want to share it. And this is what happens. I mean, I have three year olds that come into classrooms and say, it's too loud in here.

And imagine a three -year -old having that kind of ability to assess a problem because they're feeling uncomfortable, be reflexive, mindfulness to figure it out, and then to say it, as opposed to them just getting louder. You know, I walk down the street with my wife, and we're talking to each other, and somebody behind us will be there really loud, and we're getting tight. And I said, let's just stop and let them walk around us.

will pass us and then we're cool. And that's what a three -year -old's doing that and it's just because they've had the opportunity to listen, make different kinds of sounds, communicate with each other, just like you were doing with your students, with your musicians. know, it's just, and that's, that I think is what's missing.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

is a beautiful answer. And I think a great way just to put a wrap on this one.

Hayes (:

I have to say, Jeff, it's been absolutely a pleasure to talk with you. And you got me into places where I avoid, but we came back and you allowed me to come back and it was very important. I really appreciate it. What instrument do you play?

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

It's jazz man. It's just with a microphone and with a podcast. That's all it is. I undergrad viola masters is in conducting.

Hayes (:

Yeah. wow. Wow, viola. That's one of my favorite instruments.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

So you spend your career literally in the middle of the orchestra right in front where everything's happening. And all I did was I stood up, turned around and picked up a stick and it was just like being at home.

Hayes (:

Yeah.

Hayes (:

And is your wife a musician too? wow, far out. Classical?

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

professional double bass.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

total classical head before you ask total total total classical head

Hayes (:

So did you play any jazz? Did you stray? But you didn't play, did you ever improvise with the viola?

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

Now, we over.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

You take the music away from me, man. I, you know.

Hayes (:

You're the type of cat, I can get you, because you're doing it with the orchestra. So it's like, you know, it's a matter of...

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

It's coming out of the mouth, not out of the hands.

Hayes (:

Yeah, wow. That's really cool. See, what's really beautiful is that we're all so dear. You know, we all have our gifts.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

We certainly do. And yours is inspiring greatness in us all through the sounds and silence. The website again is creative sound play dot com. is Hayes Greenfield. You can find out more about him over at Hayes Greenfield dot com. We have all of our links to everything here on The Conversation both audio and video over at the Jeff Bradbury show. This is episode number 56 Hayes. Thank you so much. Please come back. Please consider this part one.

Hayes (:

You know?

Hayes (:

Well, thank you, Jeff.

Hayes (:

I love to, Jeff. You are amazing. This is beautiful. I would love that. Where are you located? I didn't know where you're located. Okay, all right.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

And if I'm ever in New York, man, let's go out.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

We'll talk about that after we get done recording. And that wraps up this episode of the Jeff Bradbury show. Thank you guys so much for hitting this. Don't forget to hit that like and subscribe. Of course, you can find out all of our podcasts over at teachercast .net forward slash podcast. And I hope you guys haven't enjoyed this show. There's plenty more. We've got amazing episodes on this channel from people in the Olympic team on the NBA authors, business owners, website design experts, you name it. This is a fantastic show.

Hayes (:

Beautiful.

Jeffrey Bradbury (:

And if you'd like to be featured, head on over to TeacherCast today. Hit that contact button. I would love to have you guys featured on the show. And so on behalf of Hayes and everybody here on the TeacherCast Educational Network, my name is Jeff Bradbury, reminding you guys to keep up the great work in your classrooms and continue sharing your passions with your students.

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