In this episode, we discuss Seth Green's Bored Ape NFT being stolen, Andreessen Horowitz's $4.5 billion crypto fund, a cross-chain event between Million on Mars and Sunflower Land, an NFL blockchain game, Helpshift's plan for free metaverse customer support, metaverse elves, and so much more!

Episode 27 Keywords: Seth Green, BoredApe, NFT, Andreessen Horowitz, crypto fund, cross-chain events, Million on Mars, Sunflower Land, NFL, blockchain, Helpshift, free, metaverse customer support, elves

Welcome to the metaphysics podcast. The

Metaverse and web three are bringing about the biggest

revolution since the internet itself. With your hosts Paul the

prophet Dawalibi And Jeff the juice Cohen. We will be bringing

you the latest Metaverse, business news and insight into

what it all means. The meta business podcast starts now.

From the boardroom to the metaverse. This

is the metal business podcast. I am Paul the profit Web. I'm

joined today by my friend and co host, Jeff, the juice Cohen. For

those of you who are new here, welcome to the official podcast

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or notifications there are so you make sure you get every new

episode right when it comes out. Jeff, how you doing this week?

I'm good. I'm feel like I'm ready to go. You know,

it's whenever we record after the live stream. I always feel

like you know, I've got the kinks out like I'm kind of ready

to. It's almost like yeah, like when you go off you take the

first three or four holes, like get your swing and then you're

really hitting your stride by the by the middle. So that's how

I feel now. I feel like I'm ready to go. I'm like loose.

It's gonna be we're gonna we're gonna spit some fire on this

episode. I

think I am ready for some like classic juice hot

takes here. Okay, so let's let's kick this off. Guys. We'll start

with a story here. As always, we try and start with a story

that's a little bit fun or a little bit lighthearted.

Although enough I call theft fun here. But it is an interesting

story. And the headline is someone stole Seth Green's board

ape, which was supposed to start in his new show. The sub

headline says the actor has been pleading on Twitter with dark

wings ad for who bought his ape from a scammer to return it. So

this is actor producer Seth Green. He had NF T's that were

robbed from him as supposedly after succumbing to a phishing

scam. And what was interesting about this robbery is he had

bought a board ape or a board ape and a few other NF T's. And

he was using the he had been developing for the last I think

year it said an animated series featuring the board eight that

he had bought. Now, now that he no longer owns that board eight

because it was I guess stolen from him or you know that there

was he was scammed out of it. I guess he no longer owns the

copyright to that board a and so now he's he's trying to get it

back from the person who bought it from the scammer. This is the

this is sort of where the saga ends in this or what we're where

we're currently at in this saga. Part of this article. Jeff, I'm

curious what you make of this. There's a lot of ways to dissect

this, right. First of all, like getting scammed out of the board

a second of all using it in an animated TV series. The

copyright issues, the ownership issues,

I wasn't aware that Seth Green was still alive slash

making content so good for him. It was still being relevant, I

guess, in some capacity. So that's number one. I hadn't

heard of him since like road trip or whatever movie he was

in, like 1997 is still around. It's still around. And he still

he looks good. He looks young. So good for him. He's looks

healthy. Wow, where was I? I mean, this is, I think so I'm

gonna put my tinfoil hat on hit the music. This is a really

smart publicity scam. And I say that because no one would care

that Seth Green was making some show about his board ape. But

now that the board ape was stolen, and he's going on and on

and getting all these articles written about how Oh, wow, like,

is boring. There's a reason why we're talking about it, we

probably wouldn't be talking about it if it hadn't been

stolen. I think that this is all an elaborate ruse, where, you

know, either was obviously this is on the blockchain so we can

see that someone did, you know, clearly take possession of the

ape. But I think this is all contrived. And it's just a

really smart publicity move to garner attention for for show.

And keep in mind, like what does that even mean? It's still even

if it was, quote unquote, stolen, he could still use that

IP. Like, what is the person who stole the IP, the ape gonna come

and be like, hey, like, I You owe me the royalty money for

this thing that I stole from him. I don't think that's how

the law works.

Look, I think it's the genius tape right?

That's a hot Take a genius stake and even think about that. Keep

in mind, right in the in the in the mind of the scammer nothing

was maybe stolen here, right because it says it says very

vaguely some kind of phishing scam. Right? It would be hard to

prove if Seth I feel like fell for the phishing scam. Right?

They'll give me the willingly entered his email and password

or something, you know what I mean? Isn't that like, it's

fraud? It's a crime of some sort. Right. But

it's held them by gunpoint. Give me your

information.

So I love to take and now that I think about it,

it's kind of genius. If that's the reality, and he gets it

back, right. And, and maybe he knew he would be able to get it

back. Maybe it was all planned out in advance. I let me take I

want to take the conversation back, though to one step before

that even which is why do we care about a show? Featuring a

board eight, but like, it's not a character that has any

characteristics? It has this? We don't know anything about these

board apes. We don't know what kind of are they nice? Are they

assholes? Are they like what kind of people are they? What do

they like to do for fun? If anything in the name that says

they're bored, right? I don't know how you create good content

around a bored ape.

Hence why they're doing this publicity scam,

because now you get people interested. But I do think you

bring up a more serious interesting question where, you

know, we've seen recently a lot of these communities try to

pivot towards either content or building a Metaverse or building

games around what is really just like a bunch of profile

pictures. I guess it sounds like you're fairly bearish. But

having said that, the apes all have interesting pictures

characteristics, like you could build lore around the

characters, I think you'd it would have to take an

imagination to build out a whole storyline, but like, it's no

different than like, there was no Harry Potter until someone

created the world around Harry Potter, which is the kid with a

scar on his face. So like prominent character does have to

be inherently interesting, for there to be an interesting

story.

But is it? Are you allowed to build lore right?

Because you own the copyright to that one board ape? And its

image and likeness? I assume. Right? But like, if you go start

making up stories about how this board ape is a drug dealer, in a

world where you know, everyone's a murderous villain, like, well,

will the folks that you've allowed to be like, Oh, that's

cool, right? That you made up this horrible, like, lore around

our, our, our characters that we create,

I mean, the ethos of the crypto of the whole project

is that it's decentralized, right? You own your ape, you own

your character. Now, people probably wouldn't do that.

Because I think if you're an owner of a board, ape, you're

probably part of that community. And I don't want to harm harm

the community but like, I don't know if there's anything

Yugoslavs could do to stop you. I think that's like, kind of the

very one of the at least purported values of buying these

apes. It's like, it's your APU, you could do what you want with

it. Yeah, it

said whole feels a little backwards to me, right?

Like, The Simpsons was a success, I'm fine with trying to

leave another animated show that was a success. Success, people

would then go and buy Simpsons merch or put a Simpsons poster

on their wall or whatever it is. But it started with like good

stories and good characters. Here, you're starting with just

the image. And now they have to create the stories and the

characters, like clear to me that that's going to be

successful, or that the core material like, is a board a

really the best possible animated show, someone could put

on the air, right? Like in the world of concepts for new

animated shows, if you take out the hype around board, apes,

that was that, are there more interesting shows to be done and

written. I just, I have trouble believing that this is the best

extension to call it of this content, or this IP.

I agree. I mean, you're putting the cart before

the horse, you're creating the IP before creating the story and

the narrative, which, you know, doesn't really work. But the

crypto community, you know, is is is an interesting one. I

mean, they're very passionate, right? Like these, these apes

definitely do have sentimental value for people and they're

well known. Having said that, it is still probably a very niche

community. We talked about this all the time with crypto gaming,

you know, they it's all it's everywhere around the news, but

it's a very small portion of people that are actually

engaging with eating and playing these games for now.

What do you think are the chances Seth gets his

eight back?

I don't think he'll get his eight back but I don't

think that was the point here. I think he wanted to create

attention and I think he's done that if the show is successful,

he's gonna make a lot more than you know, what is one a worth?

This point, it'll be probably have come down in value as soon

Let's, let's switch gears let's talk about

someone who can definitely afford to buy a lot more apes.

And this is a little bit of a, you know, tip of the hat to you

and to us from our previous episode, where we talked about

Andreessen XGames fund one new fund like the $600 million game

gaming focused fun. This is Andreessen Horowitz again in the

new CNBC article says, Andreessen Horowitz raises four

and a half billion dollar crypto fund to take advantage of

bargains in downmarket. Silicon Valley firm announced a new four

and a half billion dollar fund for backing crypto and

blockchain companies on Wednesday. Partners, Ariana

Simpson and Chris Dixon liking the long term opportunity in

crypto to the next major computing cycle. After PCs in

the 80s. Internet in the 90s. And mobile in the early 2000s.

bear markets are often when the best opportunities come about

Simpson. First of all, let me just say, how cool is it to be

at Andreessen Horowitz, we're raising a new fund is if the

thesis here is true, right, that this was all about taking

advantage of bargains? I mean, the bargains only came about in

what like the last week?

Right? And maybe a little more than that. But yeah.

Sounds like what did they do just send a letter

out to their LPs and be like, raising a new fund. And two

weeks later, this was four and a half billion dollars, like kind

of a cool environment to be operating in as a VC. But what

do you make? Jeff? You know, we did call this we said the gaming

fund was was not going to be sort of was not going to live on

its own. There was something that was going to follow that.

Curious, your thoughts?

Yeah, I mean, I don't I don't have too much

thoughts outside the fact that I'm impressed that we really

did. You know, sometimes, people may think we joke when we have

our tinfoil hat, you know, noise which we do. But this was

actually exactly something we called literally, I think was

last week. So last week, came through so quickly. And the

reason we sort of sniffed that out, I think was because we we

thought it was odd that in the announcement for the massive

sport under $600 million gaming fun. There was really not much

or even no talk of crypto in that announcement, which is we

were positing like why that would be the case. And you know,

I think we basically said well, maybe they have another fun

that's going to be targeted at crypto. So kudos to us for being

right. I don't have much more uptake than like patting

ourselves on the back. I think this I actually would be

interested to see if they talked about gaming in this one. I

don't know this is a CNBC article. So I don't know, we'll

get the information. But I'll be curious to see if this crypto

dedicated fund will invest in web three games? Or if it's kind

of like, somewhat separate.

Question for you, though, on the size. How quickly

do you think they deploy this right? If this is all about

opportunities that are depressed right now, right? Companies,

maybe with valuations that have been hit, you know, or lower or

whatever, like, if this is a really opportunistic fund around

bargains, do you think they deploy this it like four and a

half billion in six months in the year, two years? Is there

enough out there to deploy a four and a half billion dollar

fund in your mind?

I guess, maybe I'm a little skeptical. I wonder how

you would know better than I, how much of this narrative

around the bargains is hey, they were raising this fund for the

last six months. And now it closed and they're saying, Well,

look, we've got we did this fun, because there's bargains, I

don't know how realistic it would really be for them. You

know, even Andreessen with all the power, they have to marshal

that big just logistically put it together a fund that quickly.

So I suspect they're going to do this fund over or the normal

lifecycle fund, they may be a bit more aggressive with

valuations down here. And, you know, the market being a bit

softer. But I think when you're dealing with that much capital,

it just, it would be hard for them deploy it much faster than

they probably already are, like, you know, four and a half

billion dollars, like, it's gonna take a while to deploy

that. You know, just in general. I did see in the article, as you

add it up, it looks like they backed Adam Newman,

the former founder of $70 million, which is

That's wild. So I guess, you know, what, you know,

he did build a build a massive company. So you know, you're

betting on a founder that's has built a multi billion dollar

company, I'll be it, you know, sort of almost almost ended up

killing it, but he did. The almost destroyed

$40 billion of value. But yeah, you know, the

early

day the first money and did well, though, I'm sure.

Yeah. Look, first of all, I don't think it took

them six months to raise this. I truly believe it's on the order

of weeks, if not even less. And, you know, I've heard stories of

Sequoia, you know, in some of the frothiest markets would

literally just do that would send the letter out to their LPs

and tell them look, here's your allocation. Right, you're we're

raising a $2 billion fund your allocation is 200 million sign

on the dotted line. And you know, we need the wire transfer

by x XYZ date. I mean, in some of these frothy markets, this is

how the Top funds top decile funds, go and fundraise,

literally. And so I suspect this didn't take them very long to

raise it all. And I suspect they're gonna deploy it

relatively quickly, because I do believe there are probably

bargains to be had. And the but I also think that the downturn,

right, the ripple effect caused by the, you know, the blow up of

the last couple of weeks is temporary, right, I think in in

two months from now, three months from now, while the you

know, the markets may be the public markets may still be in

sort of a recession type of kind of zone. I think the enthusiasm

for crypto people are going to forget very quickly, sort of

this, this blow up and move on very quickly. Like I don't think

this, the negative feelings and attitudes are going to last that

long. And I don't think this like people are saying, Oh, the

bubble burst must like to me, so a little air has come out. And

then people aren't like we're gonna keep pumping air in.

I do wonder if we've we've hit an inflection point

where some of these projects that have no utility or like,

you know, the pictures of a rock that are selling for 20 eath.

Like, I hope that the bubble has burst on that. I think, clearly

you and I are believers in web three believers in this

Metaverse concept, but we do this podcast obviously. 100% But

and so projects that are building with actual value that

are Creek creating, like real technology in the space 100%

will still get funded because there's so much capital going

around. Maybe valuations briefly will be a bit lower. But I do

hope we're the speculative, FOMO mania, I hope that that's your

comment

got a little no question. I think that that,

Ben, this is why these natural cycles are good, right? They're,

they're productive, you get rid of that 25%. That's like total

noise. That's like short term cash grab. I think the industry

will be way better off. That's why I say in two or three

months, I think we'll be back to a lot of enthusiasm, but a lot

of enthusiasm around really great projects or interesting

projects. So that's it'll be interesting to see where and

recent deploys all that money. But very exciting to see

another, you know, huge amount of cash essentially being

injected into the space. So let's talk about this next

article. That Jeff, you flagged this one for a very specific

reason. And I love the sort of the insight that's hopefully

going to come from this and the headline here is web three games

million on Mars and sunflower ran sunflower land will do cross

chain event. So what's happening here is two web three games, two

separate web three games, million on Mars, sunflower land,

their play to own crafting games, they're creating a first

of its kind cross chain, cross universe crossover event.

They're built on different blockchains, wax and polygon.

And they're going to enable what they say is coherent gameplay

across two different networks. So two web three games building

true interoperability between between the two of them. And and

obviously, we've talked on this podcast about interoperability

being one of those like, we will not reach the metaverse capital

M until that box has been checked. Are you surprised to

see something like this this soon? Do we think this is a bit

more sort of PR fluff? Do you think there's going to be real

takeaways and and sort of learnings from this that may

lead to industry standard interoperability? I'm curious,

Jeff.

It's the first step. I don't want to undersell This

is actually a big article, and like the title doesn't even

really do it justice. Like at all, it's fairly monumental, I

almost didn't even catch it. You know, it's one of the bigger

stories, I feel like in web three gaming, because it's

really the first time that one of the two separate companies, I

believe they're not owned by the same publisher or not owned by

the same developer. So two completely separate functioning

businesses that are trying to make profit for their

shareholders are coming together and having this concept of

interoperability. And what actually is the most surprising

is that it's across two different chains. Because I

could have seen a scenario where this was they were both on

Polygon, for example. And it was like polygon went to both these

studios was like, hey, look, we'll give you a bunch of money

to prove, you know, to kind of do a proof test case like we

want you to be the first like, hey, it's on the chain, you

know, it's a lot easier to put together two Lego pieces that

fit right use a stupid, probably bet maybe Good, maybe bad

analogy, but like they're on the same chain, it feels easier. The

fact that they're on two separate chains, is surprising.

So I would love to hear a bit more of a story of how this came

about, like EU approach to what the economic terms are. Because

like, we've talked about how difficult this is going to be to

achieve. And obviously, these are just two games, they're not

particularly high def graphics, like they're, you know, resource

management type games. So there's plenty of there's still

plenty that has to be done to make the metaverse a reality.

But I think this is pretty impactful. So I'm curious, your

thoughts.

I think when the history is written, right, and

we look back, people are going to be talking about this moment,

in in much more meaningful ways. Like it, kudos to you for

catching the story, because I agree that headline was not. It

is really underselling this. But it'll be one of those, you know,

I won't say like, Man on the Moon moments, but like, it'll go

down, as you know, maybe the time someone sent their first,

you know, TCP IP packet from one machine to another or something

like, I don't mean to cut you off, sir. Like when

new and esports are talking about when there's the esports

competition, the guy won the Ferrari. Yeah, like, exactly,

are you gonna be like that? Like, it'll be like, boom, you

talked about like that.

And, and it's interesting, because when I saw

the names, I had to think back, I had met the founder of the

million on Mars game at the crypto Bahamas conference, which

was I was at recently. And it struck me because I remember,

you know, the guy was super sharp really understood what you

know, where he was going with this. And it sort of all makes

sense, right? Like really kind of forward thinking about, that

goes beyond just sort of selfishness around success of

his own game. But it's looking for six, like the pie to grow as

a whole. And inter interoperability is key to that.

So I mean, I just hope this is a massive success. I hope more

people talk about it. I hope more people replicate this. And

I love that it's happening, because that is, like we've said

many times before, key pillar for, you know, any true

Metaverse to actually take shape, or standards which allow

this kind of interoperability. So

first and foremost, I hope and I think you said

this, like, I hope players appreciate this and opens. It's

a fun mechanic, I hope it brings value to both games, like

triggers. That's how that's how this is going to end up 60.

Like, the only way that this will work, is if it's fun for

the players, like if the players of both games, say, hey, wow,

I'm now playing both these games, I'm moving back and forth

between the two, I'm spending more money, I'm spending more

time I'm enjoying myself more, then every other developer is

going to look at this and say, wow, like, Okay, now we have to

do interoperability. Before it was like it's always been well,

why would I do it? I want to keep people in my game. But if

the players start demanding it, that's when you're gonna see

this space really quickly. inflection point, I think,

true. They have to prove the value to the

players. But it's also as I'm hearing you talking like, it

really is so different from any game developer attitude we've

seen in traditional gaming, right? Like, we talked about

stuff on the business of esports podcast, it's really all the

traditional gaming companies are really closed ecosystems. They

do not want any interoperability, they don't

care about any of that. And so it's interesting to see this

initiative being taken. And like I said, I think we both hope

it's massively successful. So let's move on. Let's talk about

the NFL and mythical games here, Jeff. The headline here NFL

mythical games to launch, play and own NFT game, NFL Rivals. It

says even in this bear market, the NFL is bullish. NFL is

bullish on blockchain gaming. Basically what they're doing.

This Is Mythical games partnered with the NFL, developing a

blockchain game called NFL Rivals. It's like a fantasy

football game. So you act as like the general manager of an

NFL team. You trade and players, you build up players. They're

all NF T's like the team building is NF T's. And they,

the NF T's represent ownership of assets, right? Obviously,

players or things like that. And it's going to be free to play,

you're going to get a starter team at first launch. But as you

go along as you compete as you win matches or complete

objectives, you'll have the opportunity to win tokens or NF

T's that they don't give any details on here just says the

ethical isn't quite ready to share any details on earning

tokens. But that's, I suppose it's going to be better players

are better ways to improve your stats, things like that. So what

do we make of mythical in the NFL doing this together? The NFL

invested in mythical Oh, that's an interesting data point. They

were part of mythical Series C round which was $150 million. So

NFL has a vested interest in mythical clearly there bullish

on blockchain gaming. Do you think this is the right

activation and the right, you know, the right fit?

Yeah, I mean, the NFL has been pretty forward

thinking actually, in recent years about their kind of gaming

strategy. I think they signed it the historically they obviously

had Madden and that was kind of like the main NFL video game.

And it's still largely is, but I think in the last couple of

years, you know, one they signed the deal for more of like an

arcade style game would take to that I believe is supposed to

come out sometime in the next two years. That'll be a little

bit like almost like NFL Blitz. There obviously doing this now.

And they also did a deal with skills where they're they

created like, they licensed games to skills, the peer to

peer kind of wagering company to build the build mobile games. So

I think the NFL was being smart in terms of diversifying away

from just not getting into web three getting into pure peer,

they obviously have been pretty heavily into sports betting with

partnerships with DraftKings FanDuel. So kind of broadening

out there like Interactive Entertainment slash gambling

content. So I think that's smart. It's interesting that you

know, they chose to invest in mythical I think, I don't even

know the LEA had a VC arm. So that's, that's kind of cool

called Dark 32. Equity. That's, that's, that sounds like a fun

place to work. Yeah, other than that, I mean, you know, sports

games are good for this, I think so rare, has proven with soccer,

like they've had a pretty good model. We saw dapper labs with

their NBA Top Shot, which isn't specifically, exactly this, but

the crossover between sports esports and crypto is one that

we've talked a lot about. So I do think this will find an

audience. The typical kind of crypto fan is usually like a

young male. So that's kind of the NFL is audience. So I

suspect if they build a game that actually is that actually

works like an economy that works in a game that's somewhat fun.

They'll probably have success, I think. I mean, Jeff, let's

talk about that, though. The average NFL fan

first of all still, like in their 50s. Right, like it's

still it's still trends, older, most traditional sports trend

older, I think it's actually exactly 50. The latest date,

I've seen that I see a few potential scenarios, and I'm

curious which one you think is most likely? Do you think this

kind of partnership results in a bunch of like, older than the

average crypto user, people creating wallets getting into

blockchain gaming discovering this for the first time? So

tapping into an entirely new, older audience, that crypto may

never have reached before? Or do you think just the few you know,

the minority of young NFL fans will look at this and think it's

interesting because they understand crypto, they probably

already have a wallet. And you know, it's already a fit. So it

doesn't really grow the pie, but you have this, you know, the

people who are already crypto enthusiast, who also like the

NFL get into it? Or do you think the third scenario I see is it's

just totally like, the fits not there at all right? So you, you

get it's with falls flat because the people who this is targeted

that don't have crypto wallets don't want crypto wallets don't

know how to have crypto wallets, and therefore, getting started

with a blockchain game is too, too heavy of a lift to make

happen.

I definitely don't think it will be one. I think it

will be two or three. I guess I already said I think it will be

successful. So I think it'll be too I think you'll get maybe

that 18 to 27 year old like, crypto audience, who's also a

football fan. And it will be played around or planned on

whatever they want to call it. So if they build an economy,

build some hype, like maybe they'll get some sponsors to

come in and kind of pump it like some NFL players, or former

players. And so maybe you can hit like that that sort of S

curve like hype cycle. I think it'd be that I don't see like 55

year old like, you know, the Bears fan from Chicago, like

going and like becoming a huge fan of this mobile game. That's

just my intuition. I don't I don't know. What do you think?

Which would you bet? Yeah.

I try like, I'm gonna be a little bit of a cop

out here. But what else can the NFL do? Right? I always come

back to that. You have an audience that's getting older.

Right? You're challenged from every side whether it's gaming,

whether it's other forms of entertainment, right you there's

pressure from all sides to grow the sport to grow the fan base.

How else do you reach younger fans? How While still, you know,

trying to get people more excited about the NFL, I feel

whether we think it's going to be a huge success or not. You

have to be doing this, or at least you have to be trying

these things. And so it's hard to it's hard to fault them and

say, Oh, this is not a perfect fit, your audience is a bit

older. I am. Well, that can't paralyze you, right. As a

business, you can't just be like, well, our audience is

older. So you know, we give up. And so I like it, right? Like I,

I don't want to like it that I think it's a little bit cheesy.

And like, I don't I don't think it's that exciting. But at least

they're doing something at least they're trying something at

least they're gonna put something out there that try and

reach that audience. And I applaud them for that. I do hope

it's a success because of that, because it grows the pie if it

is. So we'll see. It's an interesting one. One last story

here that I think is also interesting. And and you know,

we talk about this stuff a lot in the on the gaming side. But

in the metaverse perspective, this this is one of the first,

if not the first articles, but you know, we're seeing more and

more of this trend, and that is what I'll call like

infrastructure. And and the headline here is Helpshift

launched his free plan for Metaverse, customer support.

Now, don't really care about what this plan is. It's more

wanting to discuss help shift and this idea that it's a

customer service company in app customer service that is focused

on Metaverse apps. So we're starting to see now very

specialized CALL IT infrastructure and services

targeted at Metaverse stuff, Jeff.

So this makes perfect sense. I mean, if you

assume we're all going to be living, you know, we're going to

be spending a lot more of our time in Metaverse, you do need

some sort of customer support. And it should probably be native

to the metaverse, right. Like if you're in decentraland. And all

of a sudden, you're, you know, your sword disappears. Like,

you're gonna want to be like, hey, like, what happened to my

sword, like it just stopped working or disappeared or

whatever, I froze, whatever you might, rather than popping out

of the screen and typing into a chat window, or God forbid,

calling a one 800 Number. Maybe it would be cool if like, you

could just like click a button and all of a sudden that avatar

comes over to you. And you're just having a conversation as

you would in the metaverse with a chat effectively, what is a

chat bot? But it is an avatar. And it's not that crazy of a

concept, right? Like I remember, you know, you remember 10 years

ago, it would have been insane to think like, hey, customer

service, you're going to text, you know, you're going to text

with them. Or it's going to be a chat window, you'd be like No, I

have to call one 800 Number or like write a letter. Now like,

you know, I always have an experience whenever I'm like

booking a Delta flight like I always, like, you know, if I

have to change something I'm always texting. And it's

actually incredibly easy. Because it's asynchronous. And

it's it's actually like a somewhat pleasant experience. So

I think that, like, this is a big trend, just in general, like

b2b enterprise software, it's like the consumerization of

enterprise products. So it's not surprising that the metaverse,

you know, would would need kind of these things that are you

know, it's one of those again, we'll look back on

these moments is like, infrastructure and services are

key to lay the foundation for everything that's being built,

right. And these are boring businesses, right? Customer

service is not an exciting, it's not as exciting as doing you

know, fighting robot chickens, right? Like, it's just, it's not

as sexy, it's not as exciting. But you need this stuff. And

when this stuff starts popping up, this is where I start to get

excited about the industry and where it's going as a whole

because there's a recognition that to your point your sword

disappears, you're gonna need someone to talk to so business

view on this is very excited about it love seeing this, we're

going to see a lot more right the stories, I you services and

infrastructure ends up being a lot of, you know, in this where

we are in the lifecycle, I think of what we're going to see going

forward. My sort of silly your take on it is if we go back to

the original Metaverse World of Warcraft, which I will call the

original, like, I know there's meta verses before that, but the

real the real one that matters. And as a gamer, I can say that

World of Warcraft, right? You know, those things happened in

World of Warcraft, like your sword could have like, could

sometimes disappear. You would loot a monster and maybe not get

the thing you were supposed to get. And there were people in

World of Warcraft that were like guides or Game Masters

essentially, that would show up they would appear right in the

game to solve your problem get you unstuck try and get your

sword back whatever it was. The funny thing about WoW is there

were there were instances in WoW of where the customer who these

people who are essentially customer support because they

had to To solve these kinds of problems, they were essentially

like the most powerful beings within Wow. And within this

Metaverse, right, like they had to be all powerful to be able to

solve people's problems. And you ended up with customer support

people who had God complexes, right? Because they could go

anywhere, do anything, make anything appear disappear, right

to be able to solve, and I fear that customer support in the

metaverse specifically, they go down this path of you need to

give them powers. But powers in a virtual universe go beyond

just like, hey, I'm processing your refund over the phone. You

become like way more powerful in a virtual setting. In the

metaverse

centralized, and there's real dollars in play

like, you know, this kind of gets goes to the elf con

concept. You know, this here and this this article that I'm

pulling up, the elf will be the most powerful and subtle form of

coercion in the metaverse. These electronic life facilitators are

the natural evolution of digital assistants like Siri and Alexa,

but they won't be disembodied voices in the metaverse.

There'll be an through I don't know what that word

anthropomorphic for so anthropomorphic personas

customized for each customer. Yes, they'll be else. Very

interesting. This is a fascinating art,

all powerful else. That's what people have to

look forward to in the metaverse what better way to end Jeff, I

gotta say, another great episode. I enjoyed this. Thank

you. Thank you guys for listening and tuning in every

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