In this episode the tables are turned and I'm being interviewed by Nutan Limaye who hosts the ‘Life of a Researcher’ podcast.  Nutan is an Assoc. Professor at the IT University Copenhagen. We met when she was a participant in one of our residential academic leadership development courses in 2024.  

We talk about my unconventional career path starting in social work, moving into nursing and midwifery, then finding myself in computer science and human-computer interaction, and now doing more leadership and academic development work. As with many career stories, serendipity figures a lot, along with a strong people-centred red thread that weaves through all the various turns. 

Nutan also asks about how the academic leadership development courses came about, and how we facilitate learning experiences on hard topics like challenging conversations. And we talk about themes that have arisen in the podcast. Along the way we also touch on interdisciplinarity, and academic mobility and what is home. This is a slightly edited conversation from the version she released end of June 2024, shared with her permission.

I'm releasing this now as a complement to my careers article in the Feb 25 edition of Communications of the ACM

Overview

00:29 Introduction

02:41 Nutan's Introduction to the Podcast

05:09 An Unconventional Career Path

07:34 Transition to Computer Science

11:08 Shaping Interests around People-Centred Perspectives

14:21 How Research Evolved as Technology Evolved

17:14 Reflections on Changing Paths

23:12 The Challenges of Interdisciplinary Research

28:03 Supervision Serendipity

34:21 Leadership and People-Centred Academia

42:21 Designing Learning Experiences about Challenging People and Conversations

48:23 Insights from the Session

50:06 Motivation and Themes of the Changing Academic Life Podcast

55:41 Academic Mobility and the Concept of Home

01:05:13 Non-Rapid Fire Questions and Reflections

01:14:11 Outro

01:15:00 End

Related Links:

Nutan Limaye 

Life of a Researcher podcast and episode A conversation with Geraldine Fitzpatrick

Nutan’s LinkedIn profile 

My CACM article:

Geraldine Fitzpatrick, Fit for People, Fit for Purpose: Designing Tech that Matters, CACM, Feb 2025 Issue, Vol. 68No. 2, Page 7.

Other CAL Episodes mentioned:

Sarah Davies - two parts:

• On mobility, precarity and notions of excellence
• On luck, disrupting excellence, and cultures of care

Neha Kumar: On choices, authenticity and the power of the collective

Karen Stroobants: On changing research culture and reforming research assessment

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick and this is a podcast series where academics and

others share their stories, provide ideas and provoke discussions about what

we can do individually and collectively to change academic life for the better.

This is going to be a very different sort of episode because the tables are turned

and I'm being interviewed by Newton.

Limaye.

Who hosts the life of a researcher podcast.

Newton is an associate professor at the it university Copenhagen.

And we met when she was a participant in one of our residential academic

leadership development courses in 2024.

In this conversation, she asked me about my, uh, what, what you might

call my unconventional career path that starts in social work and

moves into nursing and midwifery.

And then where I eventually find myself in computer science and human

computer interaction, and now doing more leadership and academic development work.

As with many career stories, especially the ones that I also hear in, in my own

podcast, serendipity figures, a lot.

And what was also interesting for me to reflect on was the strong people

centered thread that weaves through all the various, what seem to be disparate

turns and provide some coherence.

She also asks how the leadership courses came about and how we go about

facilitating, learning experiences on topics that can be a little

bit challenging to discuss, like how to deal with difficult people.

We also talk about some of the themes that have arisen in my podcast.

And along the way we touch on other topics, like interdisciplinarity

and academic mobility.

And the interesting question of what is home for those of

us who do move around a lot.

Newton has a lovely presence and style.

And I'll include a link to her podcast on this episode, web page.

So that you can follow up and listen to some of her other conversations there.

I know that I really enjoyed my conversation with her.

And I hope you enjoy this slightly edited version from what she

released at the end of June, 2024.

Hello, everyone.

Welcome to Life of a Researcher.

As you know, on this podcast, we meet academic researchers

and share their stories.

We chat about what got them where they are and what keeps them going.

The hope is that these conversations will make the field of research

accessible to young people.

It will show how we can have very very different starting points and yet land

up forming a career as a researcher.

My first introduction to today's guest was through a centering exercise.

You know the kind that helps you focus inward and away from external thoughts?

Those who know me well would know that I'm not one to take part

in centering exercises unless a social situation forces me to.

In this case, I was attending a two day leadership course.

Those who know me well would also know that I'm not typically one to

sign up for a leadership course.

But someone I trust praised the course a lot and spoke highly of it.

So here I was, half heartedly attending a course and within that, half heartedly

participating in this centering exercise.

While I started from such a reluctant place, the next two days

forced me to change my preconceived notions about the course.

This was partly because, and thanks to, the guest in today's

episode, Geraldine Fitzpatrick.

She was one of the two facilitators of this course.

In the next two days, I would interact a lot with her.

I instantly felt admiration and warmth for Geraldine.

I had to have her on the show, not just because she made me change my

mind about something, which she did.

But also because her inspiring and rather unconventional career path,

as you may very well know, dear listener, that That's precisely what

we try to showcase in this podcast.

So, without further ado, let us start the conversation with Geraldine.

Hi, Geraldine.

Hello Nutan.

Welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for doing this.

Thank you for inviting me.

Very happy to do it.

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this conversation.

Um, like I said in my introduction without mentioning any details, your career path

was, as you described it during the, um, leadership course, very unconventional

from, What I've seen and I would like you to take us to maybe the beginning of this.

So where did you start?

It's it's going to be a surprise for everyone

So, where did I start um, I often joke that I'm still trying to

work out what I want to be when I grow up I I started off from school

enrolling in social work at university and dropped out in that first year.

And when I look back now, I joked it was because I spent too much

time You know, uh, sitting and in a pub and drinking gin and tonics.

But really it was about not feeling at home or comfortable

in the university setting at all.

And just really out of my depth and through lots of other serendipitous

moves, I ended up training as a registered nurse and then also as a midwife and

I worked in hospitals for a while and then we set up private practice, uh,

the first midwives in our state to do that because we wanted to really offer

women centered care that we didn't think the system was doing at the time.

And again, through a whole lot of series of events in that I ended up

Thinking about going back to university and actually doing a degree and I

had restarted a science degree by the scenic route, which was, you know,

whatever was on on a Tuesday night.

So when I went to the Dean to get advice, saying that I wanted to come

to university full time and I'd never really thought about structuring

the science degree properly.

What would he suggest?

And he pointed me, directed me very strongly to this new information

technology degree course they had started.

And I didn't realize then that this was the first cohort and they

were having trouble filling the quota of students for the cohort.

So he did a good sales job and it sort of fitted some other life

possible aspirations around family and flexibility of work that,

uh, some of the sort of nursing midwifery didn't particularly offer.

And so I went and did a computer science degree, which was radically

different to anything I'd ever done before, and ended up staying on and

doing research through a PhD and yeah.

Yeah, no, that's commendable.

I mean, I don't know too many people who do a full fledged career

working as a nurse, for example, and then start kind of all over again.

And I noticed that you kind of did a little bit of yada, yada, yada, a bunch of

circumstances that led you to take this.

But could you maybe say a little more about this if you're comfortable?

Yeah, we, we had um, I loved doing the private midwifery work.

Because we really built up relationships with women and the families and we

knew that we could make a difference to their birthing experience, which

is such an important event for people.

And it was also very demanding because we were on call 24 hours a day and, it

was a lot of responsibility, and there was a lot of political dramas that we

were dealing with as well, because we were really quite radical at that time,

and, and trying to change the system.

And so, Mark and I had been living overseas for a couple of years because

he's from Ireland and his family were over there and so we'd been away for

a couple of years and Coming back to Australia, because I should say

all of this happened in Australia.

Um, I didn't want to get fully involved in the medical system again, um, because

of the demands, and it was exhausting, even though I loved the actual work.

And, so I, I, I wanted to go back to university and study and at the

time, this is the very beginning of the professionalization of nursing

degrees, or people who'd been trained in the hospital system going back

and doing postgraduate studies in the university to upgrade their skills.

But they were coming back to the same career path, the same pay structure,

and I didn't see anything gained.

And I also had a very intensive course.

It was 30 plus hours contact at the time.

So I thought if I'm going to go back to uni and study hard,

I'd rather study something that opened up different possibilities.

And Part of the reasoning for actually thinking that I, you know, maybe the

computer science would work out was that my husband is in a technical field.

He's a very technical person compared to my own particular

strengths in this domain.

And we figured that, when we had kids, We could get contract work on the

basis of his expertise, and he could monitor it, and it could be work that

I could work on at home, in between, looking after the kid, or whatever.

Now, As life happens, we weren't able to have any kids in the end.

And so, like, the very reason for doing the degree wasn't for love of

maths or, those sorts of challenging problems, but more about the flexibility

and lifestyle it would offer.

Because nursing also meant part time work was evenings or weekends or night

duty, which isn't very family friendly.

So, yeah, so I found myself in a career path where I'm

going, what am I doing here?

So, yeah.

Although the thing about not being able to have kids isn't, there's

not ever any really clean cut point of where that's clear, you always

sort of keep hoping, I guess.

And yeah, and I think that one of the things that really is interesting about

informatics, even though the core degree course was very technical, because

it's applying technology to so many different domains in everyday life,

I was still able to find the people oriented, people centered perspectives

that when I look back have been part of the red thread of everything I've done.

You know, when we were doing midwifery, it was the women

centered care in technology.

It's the people centered aspects of technology that I've cared about.

And I've also been able to marry the interests in healthcare and

technology as well in, in research.

Yeah, there was a time when I finished the degree and I was looking

at doing further studies and I was thinking, what am I doing here?

And I did look at, do I move to information economics or do I look at

doing law or do I look at doing medicine?

And I did look at doing various other things.

But I ended up staying and doing a PhD.

Yeah.

And great for computer science on that.

Yeah.

That you stayed.

So could you say a little more about your work in computer science, because I'm not

an expert in the area, but I know you are in your area and very well known at that.

So could you say a little bit about what kind of work you do?

Yeah, um, it's, it's changed a lot over the years and that I, again, I

think one of the interesting things about taking a concern for the people and,

you know, design and societal aspects of technology is there are always new

challenges as the technology evolves and it creates new opportunities and

possibilities as well as new challenges.

And so that a lot of the work.

Has been in some ways, I guess, responsive to the technologies at the time.

I started off in the early days of distributed systems.

So.

My PhD work was really looking at how to support and enable

people to collaborate together and that social interaction aspect.

And the research area I published in was early on was called the Computer

Supported Cooperative Work, CSCW.

And I have since also sort of expanded a lot of the concerns to more broadly

the human computer interaction area, which is a very broad umbrella.

And we've played that out in all sorts of different technology domains,

whether that's also catching the wave of the early ubiquitous technologies

and tangible technologies and mobile devices and thinking about what are

some application domains that are doing some stuff in the learning space, in the

healthcare space, in well being spaces.

So, , We've played it out in lots of different domains.

Yeah.

Thank you for that.

And thank you for explaining it like this.

I think human computer interaction has been, uh, has been an important concept.

And now with AI, maybe it's again, in another context, equally relevant, right?

So even, even more so.

Even more so, perhaps.

This is, this is what's made it such a fascinating area to do research in because

a lot of our contributions aren't just application or domain specific, they're,

but they're theoretical, conceptual, and they're also methodological.

Because when we were, just dealing with, you know, in the very, very early 1980s,

when people were doing work, say, at the human computer interaction level, it was

drawing on a lot of cognitive science and, limits of memory and how many items

in a drop down list and that sort of that very basic sort of interaction stuff.

And then when we dealt with people network together, we were having to draw

on more sociological, anthropological concepts, which were about people

and groups and social interaction.

And, The tangible devices, again, we've got, we draw more on some of the design

aesthetics and, and material sciences and, some different engineering disciplines.

And now with AI, we don't have that.

A lot of our methods to date have in some way relied on

being able to observe people.

interacting together with and through a device.

But increasingly a lot of our interactions with technology are much more implicit.

And so that creates all sorts of different challenges.

It's about how do we understand people and contexts of use and

their needs and what might be good technologies to support them.

And AI is creating even more challenges now because it's not

only implicit, but it has these far reaching effects and implications.

And in not just shaping, I don't know whether those lights come on in the

smart room when I walk in or not, but What democracy means, you know,

how do our elections get carried out?

I mean, it has much, more significant societal implications.

So yes, there's an ever increasing need and we're increasingly needing

to draw on different disciplines, I think, to help answer these questions.

Yeah, it's much more complex.

I wonder whether at the end of this conversation, you're going

to convert my research interests, but

that was a very passionate.

Everybody, everybody should do their own.

Exactly.

I think absolutely.

No, that was just a joke because you already converted me once before, right?

With the leadership.

No, but, uh, uh, I mean, this journey sounds really fascinating.

And what I hear.

Again and again is your, uh, passion driven journey, right?

So nursing was because you were interested in people and then, then coming back to

it, back to research, and then now you speak so passionately about your research.

So it's, it seems like a very passion driven journey.

I wonder whether this was always the case for you when you were a

child, was it an organic process, or were there situations where you

were like, Oh, all this is great.

But you know, I questioned this, I questioned that.

What was what was the internal dialogue on some of these occasions?

I asked this just because some people, when they are changing fields, especially,

I mean, this is very rare in general, but People are a bit scared, you know,

I mean, this jump from one profession to another is hard, and it's amazing

you did it, but maybe if you can share a couple of thought processes that

were going on, it would really help.

I know it's a sudden question, but

No, it's an interesting question.

And I think part of the answer is.

It's tied up with the fact that I've never had a career ambition.

Oh, that's very interesting.

Yeah.

And I'd like to cast that.

in the, I go with the flow and just just see where it takes me.

But it's only more recently that I've reflected on the fact that it is was

very much my own imposterism that drove that, that I wasn't, not that I wasn't

allowed to have a career ambition.

You, yourself, perhaps,

yeah, my, my parents never even went to high school.

So I had no role models, in growing up in this growing up.

And I remember when I first deferred when I, when I said I left university, I

deferred for a year and I didn't go back.

And when I went home to say I was making the decision to defer from uni.

I know that if I was in the situation as a parent now, with the knowledge and

experiences I have, I would have a very different conversation with the person

saying, you know, what's going on and what, you know, to try to get to it.

Whereas they had no understanding or insight to even ask a question.

It was just, Well, whatever you think, and I didn't know what to think.

I was just scared and out of my depth and had no strategies for how

to handle study or, to feel like I belonged or that I could do this.

And so I, it, it didn't feel like big changes.

It was, um, You know, I, and I did go with the flow, you know, there

was a serendipitous thing that, because I'd never thought about

doing nursing, I was just not sure I wanted to go back and do social work.

So I was just applying for everything in that year I took off.

And this happened to be the first thing I got offered, within two weeks

of, you know, thinking I wouldn't have to make a decision until the

January and two weeks in August.

And I got this offer and I went, Oh, I'll just give it a go.

And then.

It's more characteristic of when I start something, I stick with it.

So when I started the nursing, I stuck with it.

When I started the computer science degree, I stuck with it.

So it's more some of that, perseverance and stickability than

any feeling like I've changed careers.

And so in not having any career ambition, I've always had a passion for people and

supporting people and creating enabling environments for people and whether that

was starting a student council at school because we didn't have a student voice

in the running of the school or, doing, doing lots of different things that

I would do with my spare time when I was a teenager that were all directed

at enabling and supporting people.

So that has always been there and I've been able to play that out,

um, or can reconnect to that in different ways, regardless of what

external looking career path it is.

There's that, that internal thread that's always there.

Yeah.

Oh, that's very beautifully put.

So, I mean, with passion and then with this thing, philosophy that, Oh, if I

start this, I should see the end of it.

Right.

And then, maybe serendipity.

Not always a good thing.

Not always a good thing,

I think.

Yeah,

Not always a good thing because sometimes you should just say, give up.

Yeah.

Or not give up, move on.

Yeah.

This isn't you.

Yeah.

Move on to do something else.

No, but I think in some cases it does work in the sense that perseverance,

if lets you exercise your passion, like it did in your case, then maybe, you

know, it is perhaps a thing that one does, but yeah, you have to, you have

to, of course, choose your battles.

You have to, and, and I can look back and I can see the red

threads, and I also recognize that in the day to day, living out of

this, I've often felt like a misfit.

Um, when I did my computer, my PhD in Australia, we didn't even have

HCI as a course in my degree program.

And I had a wonderful supervisor then who could, Correct my English and I

still have enormous respect for him, but he didn't know anything about

the area and I had to start reading from the very first proceeding.

So I did go through multiple.

Oh, what am I doing?

I'm going to give up.

And yes, it hasn't been without its angst.

And even within computer science faculties now, I think that it's been

hard to do human computer interaction research because it's often not regarded

with the same seriousness as, you know, people who do more, you know,

technical, theoretical computer science.

So.

And I think it is one of the most interdisciplinary fields.

So I think it requires a lot more, I wouldn't say a lot more, but very

diverse set of skills and knowledge from different areas, right?

And this is often underappreciated, I feel.

Yes.

Yeah.

And I was wondering, like you said, you felt like a misfit in the sense

that, you know, It was some, so firstly, I can imagine, I mean, this

is just completely my hypothesis.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

But if you're coming from a nursing background and coming into computer

science already, there is like, maybe all your fellow classmates are

doing, you know, they know some in terms that you don't, for example.

And then when you go for HCI for your PhD, again, there are other people

who kind of at least have this feeling that they know what they're saying.

And then you are trying to find your vocabulary.

So, These phases where your footing seems like it's not so solid as somebody else

who's travel, your co traveller, right?

What was that phase like?

And how were you, um, kind of dealing with it internally?

And I can personify that very accurately in terms of the discussions

I had in my head about A wonderful colleague I had as a PhD student, we

went through our degrees together, and we were both doing PhDs at the same time.

And he did for his PhD something that he'd worked on for his honours year,

which was the equivalent of Master's, so, and it was in formal specification,

so he did this in his honours degree, and then he focused on it in his

PhD, and he finished within the three years, and, you know, did really well.

And I remember often looking on him and going, Oh, if only I could be

like Jason, you know, because he's so organized and he's got, he's so

focused and he knows what he's doing.

And then I thought I'd say to myself, no, but I would be bored, silly because

I like a different sort of challenge.

I like the fact that I need to connect to different disciplines and I, I need to

embrace complex contexts of work and life, and because I would do more qualitative

methods rather than experimental or lab based type work as well.

And so it, in some ways it was harder and messier or hard in a different

way because everything's hard.

But it was what I liked doing and I did, it was a dialogue that I often

had when I, you know, when I was going through my angst, because I took five

years to do my PhD and there were some other complex reasons in the middle with

my father getting sick and that, but the number of times I was sort of, you

know, doing the, Oh, what am I doing?

I'm going to give up.

And I would think if only I had done what he had done, but then I wouldn't

have the energy and enthusiasm for it.

I wouldn't care about it in the same way.

So, you know, the little price, I guess, of following my people passions, if

you like, where, you know, A bit of disorientation, a bit of frustration,

a bit of, angst and that, and when it did connect or work out, it was great.

And I try to ask these questions because, you know, somebody who's just

starting out or is facing these challenges looks at somebody like you and says, Oh,

maybe, you know, This is the end result in spite of this angst in the early stages.

So it suddenly becomes something aspirational for somebody who's

looking at you now and says that, okay, maybe this is a matter of time.

You know, I have the passion.

I have the reason to go forward and wake up and do my work every day.

Right.

Like you were saying, like, you felt like you could show up for this work and

that was something you were enjoying.

And I think this sort of a thing, I feel, uh, that you put it out there

is useful for people in my view.

So thanks for doing that actually.

And another thing you said, I was a bit curious for me.

So your area of research was substantially different from

your advisor's area of research.

So this must have been also quite challenging.

And this happens to students even today for Reasons like, okay, I came up

with a problem that I like and I'm not exactly aligned with what my advisor

is doing right now, and but it's still a very difficult space to navigate.

So I would like you to say a little bit about how it was for you to

navigate the space where you were to make Uh, you know, sense of a lot of

literature on your own, while at the same time, you also said that, you

know, your PhD was a five year PhD.

So your advisor must have been supportive through these years.

So there's, there's this, uh, two facets to being an advisor, right?

So, um, First, you may not be able to technically help, but

if you can help in other ways.

So could you kind of tell me a bit about your experience?

Yeah, I should say that I did end up getting a different advisor,

um, for the last couple of years.

And that's part of the story as well.

In that, Stuff happens and has a way of working out.

My first advisor was wonderful and really supportive in whatever way he could.

And, um, he also, we also tried to explore different connections.

So one of his interests was more in software engineering.

So we looked at, could we support Collaboration among software engineers

in, in some of the early days of business process reengineering and

applied to software process engineering and it never really grabbed me.

So there were many months spent going down, I don't know, rabbit holes that

could have ended up going somewhere, but ended up not, which is fine.

I can look back now and say it's fine.

At the time it can feel like that was a wasted X months, but it wasn't.

There was always lots to learn and you could always also draw connections

across to where you were heading.

And I, yes, I always came back to my own passion.

And what happened again was serendipitous if I was in Europe or something,

there would be much more opportunity for networking with, because of

proximity and ease of travel and in those days being in Australia travel

is very expensive, long way away.

My first supervisor, though, was incredibly supportive.

I had the opportunity to go to, uh, one of the international conferences in the

CSCW area in the early days of my PhD.

And then because we were in the uk, he also introduced me

to people he knew in the uk.

So I went and visited people.

And some of those contacts I still have . But that was about the only.

networking opportunity.

And at one point my university was advertising for new professor.

And whenever someone came for a job interview, especially for a professor,

they'd hook the professor potential person up with a PhD student or two

along with other people just to meet.

And, it just so happened that there was a professor who

was working in the CSCW area.

, uh, Who had applied for the job, because it was an open job call.

And not only was he working in CSCW, but working on almost exactly

the same sort of questions that I'd been asking and focused on.

Like, it was like, you know, you just mouthed wow.

and it was it was it wasn't even just CSCW because there are multiple different sort

of angles that people were researching but the just the serendipity that

we're asking the same sort of things.

And he ended up being offered the job.

Before he came over he brought me over to the States and I had a, it was almost

nine months there, as an exchange student, working with his group in

the States, and then he brought that research program over to Australia.

And then he became my main supervisor.

Nice.

Um, so he was much more connected into the area.

He brought different strengths as a supervisor.

I think I probably needed to keep both of them for complementary strengths.

Yeah.

And, yeah.

And so that's also, um, a recurring theme, I think, when I look back on my career, is

So many things just happen that are Serendipitous, you know, when I

talk to people about their careers as well, that luck, the term luck,

I was just lucky that this professor happened to apply who had this area of

expertise, and, but that happens a lot.

Very interesting.

Yeah.

It happens a lot.

I think it's also maybe that the prepared person is able to

make use of the serendipity, right?

Like, if you had not already thought about questions on your own, you couldn't have

recognized the intersection this person had with your perhaps potential interests.

The fact that you had done your reading, you had, you know, tried

to understand things on your own.

So I think, of course, serendipity is a huge, huge thing.

And as you said, actually, many, many researchers or People who are,

uh, doing things which they like and are doing things at a reasonably

high level seem to claim, uh, that they've been lucky and serendipitous

moments have occurred in their lives.

But also, these are the same people sometimes who are very prepared

to, uh, when an opportunity comes knocking at their door.

And I think at least in your case, it's quite clear that you were sort

of gearing up for a visit like this.

Of course, it could have happened that way.

This person never visited, right?

So this is a different story altogether, but yeah, very, very interesting.

You're So right, Nutan, that it is, there's something about being open, like

having done the work and being open to.

Yes, that's a fit, that's a connection.

Exactly.

Exactly.

I mean, there could have been many other students, but they may not have

been able to cash in on, or cash in is the wrong phrase, I guess, but, you

know, make use of this, uh, perhaps a very good opportunity, a scholar

in the area comes to visit you.

And now, because you've read the paper, yeah, but fantastic story actually, yeah,

very hopeful sort of story actually.

And speaking of advisors, like you said, it was sort of important for you, uh, in

retrospect that That these two people in your life who played a role of advisors at

the time had these complimentary skills.

It kind of makes me reflect on again on some of the things we were talking

about in the leadership course.

So I wanted to Maybe steer our conversation slightly towards

the leadership course, but I think my dear listener doesn't

know what a leadership course is.

So maybe what I can ask you first, and it's probably better if you answer it

than I, uh, what is a leadership course?

And how did, uh, in terms of my personal journey, how did you get involved in

designing such a course and delivering?

So, again, it's the people centeredness.

I can talk about people centered academia, people centered research

cultures, and how do we create environments in which people can thrive.

You know, that red thread since school days and it was triggered by increasingly

hearing the same stories from people, and this was back in the mid, 2000, I

don't know, 15, whatever, around that sort of time, increasingly hear people

talking about being burnt out, stressed out, finding it hard to deliver to all

of the performance criteria, being pressured by people by leaders to do

work at weekends and evenings and, and I just felt like it wasn't right.

And also everyone thought they were the only ones and no one was sharing because

we don't talk about those sorts of things.

And so that's about the time I started a podcast called Changing Academic

Life exactly what you're doing, getting people to just tell their stories.

And just the feedback from that, where people were going, Oh, I never knew that

someone Senior also felt nervous before a presentation or I got ideas for how to run

my group meeting listening to this other professor talk about how they ran their

group and so just the value in sharing those stories about how we do our work

. And I say like this again is going to tell one of those serendipitous

and prepared mind stories.

I've been running courses at say conferences about how to say yes

and no and things like that as well.

And I also went and did a master's in applied positive psychology and coaching

psychology, so that I would have more to draw on in terms of theoretical

background, as well as practical evidence based strategies and approaches.

So I'd been doing that and I had a sabbatical and I was in Australia at

the time and, uh, someone contacted me to ask me, would I do a keynote

at a conference ? So we were having a discussion about the keynote and in the

course of it, somehow it came up about the fact that I was doing this master's

program and he said, Oh, would you come and run a Dean's workshop for us at the

European Computer Science Conference?

And, it just felt like something I had to say yes to my gut said, yes.

My head said, what, what are you doing woman?

And I was at a point in the degree process.

where I could then shape a lot of the work where I could pick a topic to focus more

on leadership and academic leadership.

Um, ran the workshop at this conference with very senior Heads of Computer

Science Schools . And, It was a half day session and I put in an

enormous amount of preparation work.

Too much, just to cover up my own feelings of inadequacy.

And it was well received and then following that, other people

asked me to do some work and that included Informatics Europe.

So again, I said, yes.

And also feeling like I didn't want to do it on my own.

I just happened to meet Austen at a Dagstuhl seminar and while we

were standing waiting to leave, there was something he said at the

end where again, I just went, he's the one I've got to do it with.

So I followed him up afterwards and just said, would you like to do this with me?

So we've been running the leadership courses for Informatics Europe.

But the angle I think about the leadership is, um, in all

of the research that I did.

People get taught about how to manage budgets or how to do vision statements

and all of that sort of thing.

But when you look at the research, the thing that people always say

is the hardest to deal with is the people side of leadership and.

Academics are a particular bunch as well because we're not in typical line,

we are in line management structures, but it's not the same command and

control line management that you might get in some other sectors.

And so there's this whole notion of our autonomy and independence

and, um, our affiliation to our professional domains as much as our

home departments and universities and sometimes their in tension.

You know, it's a complex space and it really needs different sorts of skill

sets and understandings about how do we create great environments in which

people can do great research work.

And we very much approach leadership, not just as the big L leader

with their name on the door.

Also recognizing that all of us can play out leadership behaviors in

how we interact with each other, how we supervise students, how

we manage our research projects.

So very, people centered leadership, uh, people centered cultures, I guess.

Yeah, fantastic.

Fantastic.

Yeah.

I mean, I was part of this course, right?

And as I said in my introduction, I went there as a skeptic, to be honest, you

know, because I was not sure typical leadership courses that I'd heard of would

give you these generic principles, right?

What could appear as your Facebook post or something, you know, do this, don't

do this, some standard do's and don'ts.

And I was like, okay, Maybe this is going to be one of those things.

Um, and I was, I was, to be honest, really a skeptic, but like you were

talking right now, uh, the fact that a leader doesn't have to be this person

with a thing on the door, right?

Uh, when I got in there, I was like, why am I even here?

I'm not even a leader.

But then I think by the end, you will sort of convince me that, you know, whether

you want it or not, there will be people who will end up , um, relying on you

Some sort of direction and some sort of, uh, overall coherence in, uh, your,

uh, you know, how you conduct yourself and bring yourself to work typically.

And, uh, this doesn't necessarily have to fall into typical hierarchies, like you

said, but this is bound to happen if you are part of, uh, an academic organization.

So this took some reckoning or, I mean, this was some sort of an understanding

I didn't have before the course.

And then there were Multiple other things that I actually, uh, got

sensitized to through your course, and I'm really grateful for that.

A couple of them I would like to specifically mention.

You conducted a session, so for the listeners, this course was for two

days, uh, close to two days, and it was on site, so a bunch of us were

there, and Geraldine and Austen were facilitators for this course, I think

we were around 18 participants or so, and one of the sessions was about,

um, so there were many sessions.

We were made, we were like going through multiple activities in different groups,

but one among them was about dealing with people who are quote unquote

difficult, um, and I think this was a very illuminating, um, experience.

session for me, because in academic situations, we are all colleagues.

We are saying there are no hierarchies, but then there are.

And then there are people who would, um, maybe try to impose themselves.

And probably all of us have met personalities like this.

But at the same time, they probably, you know, are not to

be villainized for that, right?

Because they are coming there also with their own values, and

they are also probably coming there trying to do something good,

because nobody is in academia for having, I mean, without a purpose.

It takes a lot of effort to be in academia, so if somebody is there, clearly

that person is trying to be there with some level of purpose, just that maybe

our things don't match or whatever.

So this was quite a, quite an interesting, um, session for me.

And along those lines, uh, I wanted to know,

um, so as a PhD student or as a senior researcher, we all have people

who one finds hard to deal with.

Maybe if you are the leader or the head of the department or something, then you

have even more responsibility for people who are hard to deal with, perhaps.

But even as a colleague, it sometimes comes in your way

of doing things and so on.

I like the fact that the session was done without judgment in some sense.

So what I really want to know is not so much how to deal with difficult

people because that's a topic for another conversation perhaps, but how

does one envisage a session about this?

So you designed a course which involves this slightly difficult

topic for everyone involved because Believe it or not, each of us have

also been those difficult people, maybe in different, uh, at different

levels or in different magnitudes.

Never, right?

Not us, not us.

Everyone else.

Everyone else, exactly.

But, uh, so it's, it's kind of, To actually say that, okay, we

will have a session about this.

It's a difficult topic.

That's already a decision, right?

And then to design it.

I think it was very clever design.

So what I would like to know, and I think this is a question for both

you and Austen, but now you are here.

So I have to catch you.

How did it come about?

We're very aware that we could stand up and talk for on these

topics and present the research and present different people's models.

And it's all very abstract.

And, one thing that we've been clear from the beginning, I think, and it's

just understanding some of the principles of, of learning is creating opportunities

for people to connect, so head, mind and heart, if you like, and there's a way

in which we try to engage people more experientially and reflectively to, to

think about the topics and we know the content, we know the abstract models

and the content and the theories we're trying to convey and the challenge is

how to create situations where people can engage directly themselves, and where we

may be able to shape and guide some of the insights and reflections that people

have, and as they share them, and then we might be able to give some input.

So it is very much trying to provide that scaffolded,

direct engagement, direct thinking about it.

If you remember, we never use slides , we try to just do more of the flip

charts so that we're not, we're less tempted because as academics, we can

all stand up and talk forever and about a topic we're passionate about.

So we try not to have slides, just having flip charts and having

activities, it's all about us together as a co learning experience.

Did you ever think that, oh, maybe this is too much of a difficult topic?

Let's not do this or something like, was this ever a question?

It's a topic we have to have because every group we talk to, these

are the big challenges that anyone who's in a situation where they deal

with people are going to have to have some challenging conversations at

some point, and we're never really trained in how to do that, and they're

uncomfortable as well, usually, and our self preservation is, you know, we

would want to avoid them, and then often they build up, and they either don't

get addressed at all, or they blow up.

Yeah.

In an unconstructive way.

And I'm still learning how to deal with that myself.

I think Austen would say the same thing.

It's not like we've got it all sorted and we're talking from positions of expertise.

Um, so yeah, it was a hard topic and it was more, how do we

find ways of engaging with it?

And we, for our exercise, we did bring some personas and.

We have been very careful to base those personas on real situations

that other academics have brought to us, all anonymized, of course,

because that was a challenge about which of the many challenging

situations would people connect with.

And we're hoping that there's the personas ground a discussion enough

and also provide an opportunity to draw out, reflect on some more general

principles that people then might be able to apply back to their situations.

Yeah.

I found that session extremely useful.

And as you said, very rarely are we told, taught, uh, trained to manage

situations which are difficult.

And I think to even explicitly speak about it and spend an hour thinking

about how, what would you do if you encountered a person who was being

difficult in this, this and this way.

Yeah.

I think just this whole experiment and this thought just.

Probably prepares you better to handle a situation, even if not identical

Mm.

In the future.

So I, I thought that part really worked well.

I just also came back thinking it must have been quite a

challenging one to design.

Mm-hmm.

So that, that's why the question, but yeah,

It is, and we, I think we evolve at a little bit every time.

As I said, maybe next time we might do a little bit more heads up at the

beginning or we might do a little bit more heads up at the end to draw

together some of the principles because the time gets away from us as well.

And it's, that's often the challenge, how to manage the time.

If there are people who are willing to share, I think it

takes time, the process itself.

And then, yeah, it's understandable.

And there's usually so much wisdom in the room.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, we very much think of ourselves as facilitators.

We can offer what we know from the literature and and there's a lot of

lived wisdom and experience in the room And I think also recognizing

that we're all different Yeah.

And hearing different people's approaches and going, yeah, I can

connect with that, but not with that.

And that's okay.

It was also an important part of the whole thing.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I want to now move over to, uh, your podcast.

So we already briefly mentioned this in the conversation, um, Changing Academic

Life is the name of your podcast.

request my listeners to go listen to this.

Uh, I did that.

And there were some very lovely conversations, uh, and many monologues.

Uh, so I quite enjoyed that.

I was wondering, at what point did you decide?

So I think you mentioned that it was in the 2015 around when you felt the

need for it when Some conversations were recurring that you should have

some channel where you are able to have a conversation about this at length.

And the podcast has gone on, it's more than, what, 100, 150 episodes

by now or something like that?

Over a hundred, but.

Yeah, I think it is, I think it is in the ballpark of 150, I want

to say, but maybe I'm slightly wrong.

So I wonder what are the broad themes, if you will, that have emerged?

And then what is it that is, uh, making you, like, Do this more of I mean,

there's something that's driving you.

And I would like to know what it is.

Yes.

I think that the feedback I get from people is what makes all the difference

and what encourages me to keep doing it.

And people do really like hearing other people's stories and they will

pick up different things from stories.

And I also tend not to edit the stories that I get.

And some of them can be a bit long and I am trying to split them up now into two.

So they're not quite so long

Because I remember one.

in particular where I was going to edit out this section because I

didn't find it all that interesting.

And lo and behold, that was the very section that someone came to me

and said they changed the way they ran their computer science, um,

tutorials or whatever, because of what this person shared that they did.

And I went, Oh, Oh, that's good.

I'm so grateful that I hadn't edited out because I now just think I never

know what's going to connect and this is people's genuine story and

everyone's in a different place.

Yeah.

And yeah, so I will probably pick up again.

in the autumn and start again.

I want to think about what balance between conversations and some

monologues, uh, because some people have said they appreciate the monologues

bit, and there are some topics and themes I'd like to share there as well.

And I've got different people who I'd like to talk to, um, And it's all

again, it's often been serendipitous.

It's who happens to be visiting our university and I grab them while they're

there and say, we have a chat with me or if I'm at a conference, it's not

well planned or structured thematically.

The things that I hear though, again and again, like we've said

about luck, you know, the number of people who talk about being lucky.

And there was a conversation recently or in the last year with Sarah Davies,

who's actually got a lovely paper with her colleagues on the role of luck.

And actually using that to critique our notions of excellence, you know,

because we downplay all of these other factors that, that can play into it.

Um, I think it's the diversity of career paths that I hear and

motivations that is really inspiring.

It's the fact that wherever people end up, they can find a way of

making it work or finding ways to connect to what they care about.

And so just trying to encourage people not to think of a career path, for example,

by a label or by a sector or an industry, but rather What can this role allow me

to do that I care about, that I'm good at, that connects to the difference I

want to make in the world and that there can be multiple ways of doing that.

That sounds fantastic.

Yeah, I mean, I listened to one of the I mean, I listened to quite a few

of your episodes since we last spoke.

And the one that I really enjoyed, I mean, I enjoyed quite a few and your monologues,

as some people have told you are very nice, actually, I really enjoy them.

And I think when you were visiting me, so like this podcast also happened a

bit with serendipity and me kind of catching you slightly off guard, I guess.

And that was lovely.

Thanks.

Thank you again for doing this.

I don't know.

Maybe I said it too many times already, but In any case, and then I think the

one where it kind of stayed with me, I would say is this one with Neha Kumar.

I think she was an Indian person.

So maybe that's why it connected more with me, I guess.

Um, and then she was talking about how she moved from places to places.

And the story is a bit similar for you is what I noticed.

I mean, we didn't really talk about it so much, but you grew up in Australia.

Now you're in Australia.

not in Australia, you're in Europe, you're in Austria.

And then there were many places you went to in between, right?

So we didn't so much talk about it.

But I felt like her story, we the academic nomads somehow, is also a recurring one

that really connected with me somehow.

And I don't know, I don't know, maybe you don't remember the

specifics of the episode by now.

But do you have a similar take on how your life has shaped up as An

academic person who's traveling through the world for her career.

Um, I guess that is definitely a recurring theme as well, because

very few people that I speak to are currently living and working where

they've grown up or where they've been to for their first degrees.

And so whether that's just moving interstate, if, I don't

know, if you're in the U.

S.

or, you know, some other big country, um, or moving cities, or whether it's moving

countries and cultures and languages, there's a lot of mobility expected.

And again, like Sarah Davies also talked about this a lot about, you know,

the academic mobility and the cost, because they also had that experience.

And I think it's more so now with the precarity.

And, um, scarcity of postgraduate jobs, um, which is really

challenging for people.

And I think that we underestimate the cost of those on people.

The personal costs, the research costs, the career costs.

Yeah.

There's, because it takes time when you move somewhere even just to know

where do you want to go to buy your groceries or how do you get connected

to a, how Doctor here or, um, let alone the language and the culture, even

when people speak the same language.

I remember moving to England and even though we speak English, the

Australian sense of humor was very different to the English sense of humor.

And yeah, there are just lots of.

Different things I hadn't expected to be different and and they were

so I think there's that cost.

There's the cost it takes just to get settled into a new workplace, um,

work out how do you book your holidays or how do you order a new pencil?

You know, all of those very boring, pragmatic things, let

alone How do I apply for funding?

How do I get research started here?

How do I build up my new networks and collaborators?

Because we're increasingly being rewarded for these sorts of big collaborations.

So that's a challenge and that takes time.

And then just the social connection about where's home?

What do you call home?

This is a very good question, you know, Geraldine,

because, um, it's, it's a question.

So what happened was two years ago, I was visiting Aarhus, and there's

a museum called Aarhus Museum.

And the theme for the current display was home.

And in fact, the whole museum display was about, um, what is home?

What is the notion of home?

Um, and it really like.

captured me a bit, uh, for a while.

And I had no answer for this because I have moved a lot for various things,

a lot within India, actually, because as you said, for a big country like

India or the US, you move a lot, but it's all within the country.

But within the same country, that cultural differences are quite a lot.

Yes.

And so it's been very difficult to define home for me.

Now, I have a very, very, uh, simplified definition for home.

So I tried to grapple with this at a philosophical level at a, uh, you know, I

tried to read about what people call home poetry and prose and things like that.

Now, it's a bit simple for me.

I really simplified it now.

I boiled it down to a fact that a place where I can cook my own meal, actually.

So it's become very functional.

So from being very philosophical, and then feeling not at home in most

of the places that I've been and so questioning everything from the scratch.

Now it's become this and I kind of like this definition.

It's maybe not for everyone, but This is what is good for me.

I think that, okay, I can actually make it a home if I can create it, you know,

so I think making of making a meal of your own is like a maybe a, you know,

placeholder for if I can tweak the factors that are closest to me in my day to day.

If I can design my day, In the way I can feel most comfortable with that

may be the right elaboration of that little placeholder, then I feel it is

home and maybe that's like the essential of home because sometimes what happens

now to me is when I go back to India or even in the past when I was away

from, I've been away, staying away from parents for a really long time, right?

Or, uh, so when I used to visit them, it didn't feel like home.

It used to be exactly the same space, but it never felt like home once I left it.

And then it's probably because I'm not able to design my life

when I'm with them, right?

Because It's a lot of fun for me to be with them, but at the same time, it's

not something that the choices are perhaps not exactly what I would like.

So this has become kind of the, but I think I've still not come

to a final answer for this.

So what do you think?

What is your, do you have an answer for this?

I really like your definition of home about where you can cook

meal, because it also, Yeah, exactly.

And it also points to, like you're in control, what you just said.

Yeah, precisely.

It's my choice.

It's how I make those, how I can make those routines.

And yeah, when you go back to your family home, it's back to their space.

It was different when you were a kid growing up there.

But when you've left, it's back to their space and their

routines and their control.

Precisely, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I think I'm also still grappling with it in a way, because it's,

I, I feel at home here now.

I think it does boil down to people and lifestyle.

Um,

there's something about, there always will be a connection back to Australia.

Definitely for me too.

Because of where I grew up.

But when we go back, because we don't have a place that is ours.

We still feel like visitors because we're staying with people or

staying somewhere that isn't home.

So the place is familiar and there's some at homeness about

the place, the country, but yeah.

Yes, an interesting question, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah.

I think it's an open ended question for me, but I thought that this was

a reasonably good working definition because that sort of put me at ease

because that question actually stayed with me for a really long time.

Uh, for Because it kind of stuck to me that maybe if I can't call anything home,

is this the right way to lead my life?

Yeah.

And now, over time, I even have made peace with that.

Yeah.

I guess it also comes back to what's important to you.

And, you know, are you able to live out the sort of qualities of a life,

um, and values that are important to you where you are right now?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Okay.

Yeah.

And that there are always trade offs.

Exactly, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love the fact that living where we are now, we don't own a car.

Yeah, exactly.

Whereas if I was living in Australia, unless, you know, we pretty

much would need to have a car just because different distances, not so good

infrastructure for public transport.

That, that opens up a whole different lifestyle.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think much like other situations, sometimes some philosophical

questions have no answers, but you can find like working answers

for that for yourself somehow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And what, where you feel comfortable.

Yeah.

It's also one of the big.

Privileges of our work that we can be mobile.

Precisely.

It's a huge, it's a huge advantage.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, there are costs, but we can apply for a job in any

country that offers an academic job.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Um, and there are many professions that are very tied to where you are, the

legal structures within the profession, within that state, or, whereas yeah,

it's harder to do that mobility.

Yeah.

But this was a very, uh, unplanned, I would say.

I mean, everything is unplanned, but this was a completely unplanned

digression, which I really enjoyed

. Geri: It's, but they're interesting.

relevant topics for a lot of people.

I think so.

In terms of the themes that come out of, you know, your conversations.

Are you hearing that in the conversations you have in the podcast as well?

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think very much so.

Yeah.

So we are coming kind of towards the end of this podcast.

I've taken a lot of your time.

But what I do in my podcast with the end is have a non rapid fire question.

Which means the questions are quick, but the answers don't have

to be . And these are a little bit, you know, open-ended questions.

So like, do what you will with it.

Uh, don't worry so much about it.

So if you were to do another PhD and in your case you might , what would it be?

It'd be something very interdisciplinary.

Mm-hmm.

And I would.

I actually would love to do something that's much more about culture and

how do we create better cultures.

And that's tied up with the whole reward systems that we have.

And people centric.

Yeah.

So I think I'd be Bigger systemic picture because a lot of the work

I've done has been, you know, like smaller groups and people and I'm

increasingly recognizing the systems and structures need to change as well.

So, yeah, I'd like to.

Play with some ideas for how to make that happen.

Don't blame me if you go ahead and do another PhD.

I think my husband would kill me.

In that case, definitely don't mention me.

He wouldn't be surprised.

Exactly.

And then, so next question.

Do you have a book in you?

And if so, what topic?

Oh, now that's an interesting question because I'm actually having

a workshopping session in two weeks to explore this very question.

Fantastic.

So do you do have a book in you then?

I don't know.

I'm not, it's not my happy, writing is not my happy place.

I want to have an impact.

I mean, I, I think as I'm moving into this end of my career and, you

know, I've finished my permanent full time position and I'm still feeling

like there are contributions I can make and I have more freedom and

flexibility to focus on that now.

Some people are convincing me that if you want to have an impact, it

may be possible to have more of an impact, a broader impact with

a book than just running courses.

Mm hmm.

So it's, can I collaborate with someone who actually likes writing more

and Because I would enjoy doing this sort of thing with someone, in the course, I

don't know whether we talked about job crafting, so, you know, writing isn't

my happy place, but I like working with people and I'm motivated to want to

make a difference, so are there ways I can bring them together to do that, so.

And it would be something about how can we take it control.

How do we create supportive collegial cultures?

How can we make better choices and still do great work and not at the

cost of our sanity and well being.

Beautiful.

Yeah.

I really hope you find that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think if you're going in with the open mind and some ideas to this workshop, I'm

sure something nice will come out of it.

I wish you all the luck.

Thank you.

Let's see what happens.

Over to the next question.

There are totally five.

So we've gone through two, three more to go.

One thing you would like to do more of as a researcher?

As a researcher, not because I'm now in

this

different phase.

And I think, I know people who have retired and continued to do research

and reveled in the freedom to.

I focus on what they want to focus on.

So I feel like I've done that part.

It's the stuff that I can do and have done, but I'm not passionate to

do any particular research project.

I think that sort of feels too narrow and focused and there's an

urgency now to do something that has broader impact that enables lots of

other people to do great research.

Yeah.

So I'm, yeah, I'm, maybe my research project is enabling

other people to do research.

That's fantastic.

I think that's far more impactful in a way, actually, yeah.

Mm.

Yeah.

Wonderful.

And what about, uh, things that researchers have to do typically?

And you would, perhaps if it was, you know, you were playing the God and

designing the rules of academia, what would you reduce for researchers?

Oh, I would reduce the silly games around, highly

competitive funding proposals that

require us to spend so much time writing about research and not actually doing it

because the, there are limited funding.

I would love to see some sort of universal research income available to people.

I'd love to see us recognize that not all research needs multiple partners and

big collaborations and loads of money that, you know, just me and my piece of

paper or me and a student may be able to do some really great impactful research.

And that should be valued just as much as getting funding.

And we've got to get the balance right.

And I see encouraging signs, um, towards that with things like CoARA

that, um, Karen Stroobants talked about in one of the conversations I had.

And.

Recognizing diverse types of impacts and contributions.

I think that is also about recognizing diverse types of

research and inputs to research.

So,

yeah, that sounds wonderful.

Can you play the God, please?

It's just heartbreaking to watch people.

uh, put their heart and soul into a proposal as well and it not get funded

and they just let them get on and do some of that work and see where it goes.

So true, yeah, so true.

And then final question.

So this is kind of a advice question.

I saw you actively not give advice during the leadership course, right?

So stayed away very clearly from it.

But maybe if you were to give a piece of advice to a young researcher

or a student, what would be?

My advice would be you do you.

And that means spending some time reflecting on who are you

as a researcher, not who's your supervisor, or who's your colleague.

Um, but what lights you up?

What do you care about?

What price are you prepared to pay , are you willing to pay and, you know,

trade offs in, but yeah, doing, doing the work to reflect on who you are so

that you can do you with confidence.

Thanks.

Yeah, and it sounds like a very, uh, cliched phrase, but I think it's

very important and it's a when you rephrased it and said that, oh, it's

about finding who you are as a researcher.

I think that makes it very, very, uh, very, very different from what one

would think of as you do you because you do you is often also used, um, in

more popular context, you know, in a way that, oh, maybe, you know, just do

whatever comes first, but the reflection part that you talked about, I think

that it makes a lot of difference.

Yeah, that's a great, great piece of advice.

And then we need the reward structures that recognize there are

different, lots of different you-s.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah, this was a lovely conversation, Geraldine.

And thank you for doing it in spite of not feeling 100 percent well today.

Much better than I have been.

Thank you so much.

Yeah.

And it's been lovely talking with you, Nutan.

And I've listened to some of yours and I'm excited to listen to more as well.

Yeah,

I hope I have more in my pipeline.

I mean, I have planned a few going forward.

But I'm going to release this pretty soon.

So I hope more people get to enjoy this.

Thanks again.

Right.

Thank you.

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