How Consulting Can Help Your Firm Become More Data-Driven and Scalable With Tim McKey

If your firm has a bottleneck in your path toward growth, a consultant may be just what you need to get under the hood and uncover underlying issues.

As a CPA-turned-consultant, Tim McKey understands that data and numbers really matter in a law firm. As an accountant, he was taught that numbers don’t lie, but he says that’s not always the case. Numbers can lie all the time if you don’t get behind those numbers. But what does this mean for you as a leader?

Take this case, for example: if your target is 10 demands in a certain period of time and someone hits five, it’s easy to point to that number and say “they did not hit that goal.” But if you see that one of those demands was on a three million dollar case, you have to go back and look into those complexities and get behind the number. You can’t simply jump to conclusions.

How does this help solve bottlenecks in your firm? Looking into the proof behind the numbers can help you figure out the root cause of your issues. Do you need to adjust your goals? Are you being transparent and clear on employee expectations? Are you documenting processes and data every step of the way?

Analyzing these possible causes will help you dismantle the bottlenecks, but you don’t have to figure it out on your own. This is where a consultancy comes into play: their outside eye can uncover the bottlenecks, craft a plan of action, and help your firm scale.

Listen to this episode of The Judd Shaw Way Podcast with Judd Shaw featuring Tim McKey, Co-founder of Vista Consulting. Together, they discuss why data matters, steps to solve bottlenecks, tips to foster a great culture, and how a consultancy can help you along the way.

In this episode: 

• [0:37] Judd Shaw introduces his guest, Tim McKey, and the topic of the day: you don’t know what you don’t know — how consulting can help a law firm become more data reports driven, scalable, and still maintain focus on the client
• [2:22] Tim shares why he founded Vista Consulting and how they serve law firms
• [5:52] How Vista Consulting helps law firms avoid bottlenecks and grow efficiently
• [10:43] Tim talks about his team and how they work together to offer a big-picture, holistic approach
• [13:34] How to gauge your company culture and take action to reach your vision
• [16:50] The best way to solve pain points when you don’t know the root cause of an issue
• [21:29] What to do when your goals are not met due to factors out of your control: preserve value
• [25:36] How can you increase case value?
• [30:02] Tim shares tips to ensure your team is hitting goals and expectations
• [35:20] Tim’s final thoughts: sometimes we just need a reminder

🎙️ Featured Guest 🎙️

Name: Tim McKey

Short Bio: Tim McKey is the Co-founder of Vista Consulting, which he founded with Chad Dudley to help plaintiff law firms reach their full potential. Tim also has another company, McKey Business Group, where he helps firms develop and achieve their visions for the future. For decades, Tim has been guiding law firms to maximize growth and profitability. A self-proclaimed business nerd, he enjoys reading, discussing future business trends and disruptive change, tennis, exercise, and the pursuit of the “abundant life.” 

Company: Vista Consulting

Connect: LinkedIn | Email | Phone: 225-383-2974

🔑 Relevant Resources 🔑

• Chad Dudley
• Micki Love
• cj Advertising

This podcast is designed for general information purposes only. Nothing on this podcast should be taken as legal advice for an individual case or situation. This information is not intended to create, and viewing does not constitute, an attorney-client relationship. No aspect of this advertisement has been approved by the Supreme Court. Any results set forth herein are based upon the facts of that particular case and do not represent a promise or guarantee. Those with legal questions should seek the advice of an attorney.

Voiceover:

They don't care about your 900 years of combined experience or your wall of books. They only want to know one thing. Once they've signed on the dotted line, are you going to take care of them? Welcome to The Judd Shaw Way, where we believe providing an exceptional client experience is just as important as quality legal representation. From secret tips for creating unforgettable wow moments to proven customer service pointers, The Judd Shaw Way is everything you need to go from being a good lawyer to owning a great brand.

Judd Shaw:

Hi everyone. I'm Judd Shaw, host of The Judd Shaw Way Podcast. This season's podcast focuses on the experience a client has with the lawyer or law firm. More specifically, how to go about creating, implementing, and delivering a first-class experience to the client. Today's topic, "You Don't Know What You Don't Know," really discusses on how consulting can help a law firm become more data reports driven, scalable, and still maintain focus on the client. Here to help me understand more about personal injury law firm consulting is Tim McKey of Vista Consulting.

Judd Shaw:

Tim Mackey:

Thank you so much, Judd. Happy to be here.

Judd Shaw:

Tim, where are you now? In Baton Rouge, Louisiana?

Tim Mackey:

I am right now, as we speak, in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. I don't know if I'm lucky enough or unlucky enough to travel the country a lot. But currently, I'm at home in Baton Rouge.

Judd Shaw:

Tell us a little about Vista.

Tim Mackey:

Yeah. Yeah. And in your opening, and I hope the attendees heard it, Vista was formed with my good friend, Chad Dudley, who is a lawyer here in Louisiana. We were working, we being my firm pre-Chad, was working with a personal injury law firm here in Louisiana and just examining their operations. My background is I'm a CPA. So we tend to come at things with measurements and looking at numbers and that kind of thing. And I got to point in my CPA career that we converted that practice to a consultancy. And I say we went from just keeping the score to help affect the score. And part of that look and to help affect the score is to try to understand how businesses work, and in this case, a personal injury law firm.

Tim Mackey:

And we got under the hood as, as you say, and just began asking questions and trying to understand what the pipeline was in the personal injury space of how a case was attracted, how a potential client got converted from a potential client to an actual plant, then how the case was handled and matriculated through the firm, and came out the end in some type of resolution. And we started doing that with this particular firm and started to get real traction, and got to a point where that firm needed to hire someone in-house to actually run their operation.

Tim Mackey:

And I happened to know Chad, so I talked to Chad. He was a practicing lawyer with another firm, but he came into this firm, and he took what we were doing with, I'll say that we were doing very rudimentary with spreadsheets and tick marks and things like that. Chad said, "Hey, we can automate these things." And we began automating reports, automating ways to hold our team members accountable to the policies and procedures. Not in a big brother way, but in a coaching way. And one thing led to another, and we formed a business, Chad and I, that delivered this service to firms across the country.

Tim Mackey:

And so that's the real quick story of Vista, but we really are an operational consulting firm. We do get into strategy, also, but what our best practices in attracting clients, converting them, or attracting leads or creating leads, converting those to clients, and then effectively and efficiently moving those clients through the firm. So in a nutshell, that's Vista.

Judd Shaw:

I do find it really interesting, Tim, that you have your background as a CPA. I think that really gives you an advantage on that consulting side because going to law, I never realized how much numbers were going to matter, right? I knew that the client had to have a good experience. She had to offer high-quality legal representation. What does that mean in terms of the legal work? But as you scale and grow the data, the numbers really start to matter in assessing these things. And so you really have that leg up, if you would. But I contact you, Tim, and I say, "I'm a law firm, and everything from I'd like to grow, or I'm having a bottleneck, right? I can't move cases from intake to settlement fast enough." Is that the A to Z? And then what does Vista do in response to that inquiry?

Tim Mackey:

Well, it is somewhat of A to Z, but I'm going to augment it on an Excel spreadsheet where you have AA, BB, CC. I'm going to expand that a little bit because we sometimes, or all the time, we will not say, "efficient," without saying, "effective," because just being fast for fast's sake sometimes is not good. As you know, sometimes cases need to ripen. They need to be worked up. And so we don't want to just be fast. We want to be able to identify cases that need to be worked up.

Tim Mackey:

So now let me take you back to, I think, your question. If someone called me and said, "Hey, we're having efficiency problems with our firm and we're not moving our cases fast enough," we will certainly say, "Hey," just as I've went through that, "Maybe speed is not everything, but let's look at how you're doing it now." In other words, we can't come into a firm and just start saying, "You need to do this, that, or the other." What we do, and we think it's the best model, is to understand what the firms are doing now, and then actually discover what the real bottlenecks are.

Tim Mackey:

I mean, if they gave us a call, they may know that, "Hey, we have a bottleneck," but they don't know what it is. So we actually peel back that onion and say, "Okay, tell me how things are working with your firm." And we start with how did the league get here? Are you tracking how many leads you get? How many of those leads do you want? How many of those do you actually convert? It goes back to what you said about numbers. And I will address a little bit in my CPA background here. I wish I could tell you it was absolutely planned that I would be a CPA and then get into operational consulting. That could not be further from the truth. It worked out that way, but it wasn't the plan. Having to do some CPA things that were very mundane and cumbersome to me is what made me look to expand that into, as we said, help affect the score, and not just keep the score.

Tim Mackey:

So again, trying to answer your question, if somebody called, first of all, we want to assess. And sometimes people say, "I have a problem in intake. I have a problem in case management. Hey, we don't have the best customer service protocols. Can you help us with that?" So we look at lots of different areas of the law firm. And again, it's identifying bottlenecks where our work is inherently critical, but we don't come with a cookie cutter is what I'm really saying, is we want to understand what your firm is doing and then hopefully have some tweaks to de-bottleneck those areas and to be able to identify those cases that need to be worked up. And then we work in to how to do that. What are some of the things that you should do to evaluate cases?

Tim Mackey:

And again, we are all about the business of running a law firm, not the practice of law. But we believe that there are questions that should be asked on every case that will unfold, if you will, how that case could be handled better. So we want to make sure that certain questions are asked. We want to make sure that certain procedures are followed, and we help set up a system that the firm is already using. Maybe we de-bottleneck some things. But we also want an accountability system to where management can say, "Hey, we are following our procedures and they're good procedures." So if not, we're just guessing. So probably a long-winded answer to a short question, but that's our belief.

Judd Shaw:

I think it's all important and there's a lot there, right? And I've had the privilege and the honor of attending some great Vista events. Love the socialization among colleagues and picking the brains of just some really great lawyers and learning from some fantastic law firms and companies. So there's certainly a lot of fun that goes on at a Vista event. I can assure you that. But we're there to learn something. And with all that, tell me about the team, because I also found that a real big plus on Vista is that being that there's so many facets of consulting in a personal injury, whether it be the ability to retain leads, the marketing of it, the financials of it, the case management of it, the medical side of it, all of the things that go into it, you have a big team. And it seems to me that they specialize in their different niche and able to come together to offer a big picture holistic approach.

Tim Mackey:

Yeah. I'll talk about our team for a second. And I've been very blessed with what I call a group of thoroughbred consultants. Every one of the consultants that work with us have come up through a law firm environment where their terminology and their lingo, they know those things when they get to us. And I had a client the other day say, "Hey, I think you guys' special sauce is how you help analyze data." And I said, "Well, yeah, that's right. But I think our special sauce is our consultants, our people who have a real passion to help analyze data, to help set up workflow to get data." Are we specialized in specific areas? I would say yes and no. Most of our people have worked in lots of different areas of law firms.

Tim Mackey:

A good thing about Vista, and I wasn't intending to, and this is not a sales pitch, but when you hire Vista, you get all of our consultants because even though we have a consultant that quarterbacks a client, once a week, we have a meeting where if anyone is stuck or has a specific issue with a client, that issue is thrown on the table for everyone to talk about. And to see it is really a beautiful thing because we have people coming from different perspectives. "Hey, I've seen this here, seen this there. I think this will work best with this client." And I think I said earlier, we do not bring a cookie cutter to a law firm and say, "This is the absolute Vista way to do things," because people are different, systems are sometimes ingrained that are different, and we want to tweak those.

Tim Mackey:

We don't want to overhaul anything and say, "Hey, this is the absolute best way." What we want to say, "This is the best way for the Judd Shaw Law Firm. This is the best way for this law firm. Again, everyone's different. There's personalities to get involved, but again, our team, I am actually in awe of them. I have the responsibility, if you will, to be the straw that stirs the drink with this group and gets them hopefully in the right place with the right client. Our secret sauce is our team.

Judd Shaw:

Yeah. We had a culture statement for years, and it has since been modified as we grow to always stay on mission and live to our core values, and the opening of that always discussed the secret sauce. And I used that term when I had described my team, and I feel that way about mine. But let me ask you this. So I want to create an environment in which the team can deliver the high-quality legal representation and a first-class client experience, the promise we make to our clients, right? What's the litmus test in knowing whether I do have that culture?

Tim Mackey:

I think it is talking to your team about culture and not shying away from that. What's the good, bad, and the ugly? When we work with law firms, we advise them ... Well, first of all, when we come in, we have a questionnaire that the entire team completes. So we ask about culture. "What is the culture of your firm?" And we get lots of different answers to that. Some of it is it's very financially driven. It's, "Do the best work for our client." Rarely, though, do we hear that it's a fun environment. Sometimes we do, but we want to be all of those things. We want to be able to deliver high-quality service and have a good environment to do so.

Tim Mackey:

So I think it is just what I said earlier. Before you can change things, you have to know where you are. You can't just come in and say, "Hey, we're going to create a new culture. Let's find out where your team thinks you are that today. And then also, what kind of environment is it that you really want?" We can't say that, again, just like any other thing, culture is different from firm to firm, but I think it's universal that the team wants to enjoy what they're doing, understand clearly what their job descriptions are, what their deliverables are, so they can hit those.

Tim Mackey:

We have a phrase in Vista that we use all the time that if your team member is not happy or not performing well, we have to say, "As managers and leaders, have we given them the tools to do their job, the training to do their job, and have we very clearly explained our expectations?" And of course, those expectations need to be reasonable. In our experiences, if we're able to give team members those three things, tools, training, clear expectations, then it fosters a good culture. We're not trying to work people to death. And I, for one, I often say, "I don't want to be the richest guy in the graveyard."

Tim Mackey:

So this is not just about making money. It's about enjoying what we do and then figuring out what that is. Is it a lunch and learn on a Friday with pizza that we're learning, but it's also fun, the fellowship is good, and that type of thing. So evaluating culture is the first step, deciding what you want your culture to be, and then setting the action steps to get you there. And let your team lead on that, too. You can't force culture down people's throat.

Judd Shaw:

Yeah. So you don't know what you don't know, right? And I noticed that you had mentioned about the team identifying bottlenecks or issues. And I often do that on ... I mean, I have a Monday meeting with my different departments, and one of those questions is always like, "Okay, so bottlenecks issues or otherwise, what's going on?" Sometimes the bottleneck is that the person doesn't know they have a bottleneck, or they can sense they have an issue. It's really hard to figure out why are they having an issue, or where is that issue coming from? What's the best way of dealing with that?

Tim Mackey:

Yeah. I think that possibly could be a reporting issue. And I'm going to just use an example, and if there's an expectation of a certain number of demands to go out in a certain period of time, and one team is doing better than the other, and we can say, "Hey, the team that's not doing as well has some type of bottleneck," sometimes they don't know what's really expected. First of all, we have to define what's expected to see if we're meeting that to see if we have a potential bottleneck. So we believe in being as transparent as we can with our team in what our targets really are so they can monitor themselves first. And then if some team is not performing as well, we want to dig in and find out what the reason is.

Tim Mackey:

And there's a big difference, in my opinion, between reasons and excuses. Okay. Reasons can be, "I've been out for a couple of days because my Mom is in the hospital," or, "We've had some unusual circumstance with a case that diverted our attention that we should have been doing, that was our priority." So being an accountant, I was taught early on that numbers don't lie. But I proposed to you that numbers can lie all the time if you do not get behind those numbers. And that's where I think you don't know what you don't know. Hey, if our target is 10 demands in a certain period of time, and someone hits five, we can point at that number and say, "They did not hit the goal."

Tim Mackey:

But if we go back and look, and we see that one of those demands was on a three million dollar case, and it was complicated and blah, blah, blah, we have to get behind those. We can't simply jump to conclusions. But having the adequate reports is very, very important. And I'm going to give one other analogy, and then I'll go to the next question, is that in the academic world, which most of us were brought up in, we're always given enough data from which to solve a problem. In the real world, most of the time getting the data is the problem. If we have the data, then we can make well-informed decisions to solve issues. So like I said, if a team member does not know that they're not performing well by some objective measure, and we don't have any way to measure that objectively, we need to get one, because that will help us then solve the problem. So identifying is important.

Judd Shaw:

Tim, some of the members I see from my firm that have joined in the discussion today really have been affected by the pandemic dealing with their function, right? So if it's somebody whose job it is to represent, for instance, a medical provider, we do a lot of arbitration work in which we're representing medical providers, seeking repayment from insurance companies, for benefits that were unreasonably, unlawfully, whatever denied. And now less people are treating because the doctor's offices were closed for the longest time, and so people couldn't go to the doctor, and the doctor's didn't have claims to submit, and therefore, we don't have the claims to go after the carrier, right? So business can be affected in different ways.

Judd Shaw:

And in doing that, other than the frustration that we can't get our clients to get medical care, for which they badly need it, there's also the business side of it, which means that now less treatment of these cases where our clients are getting hurt, our clients, the medical providers themselves, have less business. And so we have a goal, and the goal is 10X of something. And here we are in June, and now you're like, "We're three. We're not even five." What do you do in terms of both company morale, right?

Judd Shaw:

The fact is you may not hit 10. How do you adjust the number set to acknowledge it, and now when you know that you're not going to hit it, do you do a different number? How do you deal with these things? Because a lot of these things go into budgets and they go into quotas and numbers and bonuses and things of this nature, right? There's a lot that goes into it. But I know that sometimes my team is frustrated by the inability to maybe perhaps hit their goals, but that really has no control. It's not their fault.

Tim Mackey:

No, absolutely. And we've run into some of that type thing with our clients across the country. And the one thing I think that we want to at least have a discussion about is potentially adjusting those goals. But there's also some other things that go into that, and I want to try to explain this. We may be in a downtime now because of the things that you mentioned, but have we shifted our work to maximizing what will happen when this situation passes? And I'm going to use an example that you gave, is someone can't get to the doctor for treatment. We should be coaching them.

Tim Mackey:

And remember, we're we're attorneys and counselors. Sometimes we forget that counseling part, okay? So if you can't get to the doctor to have treatment or whatever, number one, have you talked to them to say, "What can I be doing at home to the exercises or whatever therapy, what can I be doing myself?" Are they journaling that? Are they making records of those things? That's not going to necessarily speed up the resolution of the case because that's out of our control, if courts are closed and arbitrations and mediations aren't happening.

Tim Mackey:

But what we're doing is preserving value. And if we don't preserve value, we don't the value that will come when the case resolved. So we actually worked with our clients and developed a whole different set of remote capabilities, if you will, for our clients. Some of which, like I mentioned, journaling, noting the things that you're unable to do, that you were able to do before on a day-to-day basis. Some of these things we should be doing anyway, but it should be exacerbated if we can't get our clients to the medical treatment facilities and we can't get to the courts.

Tim Mackey:

So my theory is, and the only way that my theory is going to be proven right or wrong is that we should be expanding this reservoir that's behind our dam, and our dam being when the case closes, whether it resolves in some manner or not. That reservoir should be actually bigger today than it was pre-COVID because we stockpile certain things, but we can't just let those fish in that reservoir atrophy. We have to be doing things with them, reminding them of certain things. So it's a whole different outlook. I hope, and I think we all do, that we come out of this and the water will flow freely over the dam again. But if we're not cultivating what's there now, we're going to ultimately lose value. And I'm going to say one other thing. And this it's a little bit anecdotal in what we've seen with our clients across the country.

Tim Mackey:

There have been fewer cases coming into personal injury law firms. It's down, and then people can say different percentages, but overall, it's down. But the ones that are coming, for some reason, seem to have more value. The people that are coming in seem to have more serious issues. Therefore, value goes up. It's very anecdotal, but we're seeing it almost as a system. When we go into firms now, and we're talking to them about what type cases and the numbers that they have, and we ask, "Let's look at your average case values," first of all, they have to have good measurements to be able to tell us that. But when we get to them, they've actually gone up a little through the pandemic, which is interesting. Fewer to cases, but higher value. So I hope that helps a little bit, at least the thought process.

Judd Shaw:

It really does. And when we're talking about value, maximizing compensation is really of what we're trying to do on the legal side of it, right? Offering a really good experience for the client, the customer, but also making sure that we put most money possible in their pocket. We do our job. In your experience traveling around the country and seeing all these firms, people are dealing with case values differently, really, where are the pain points that you find that could either not only decrease the value of the case, but just avoid the ability to maximize it? And what are the things that you're making those suggestions, and what are you seeing in common?

Tim Mackey:

Yeah, you've probably heard me say before, "There's two ways to grow a law firm," which is get more clients and increase case values. So we're going to zoom in on case values for just a second. And one of our consultants said one time that the drop-the-mic moment on increasing case values is contacting your client and staying in contact with them because nothing bad can happen. You probably also know that just about 90% of malpractice cases in this country come from the client not being in contact with their attorney. We propose that there should be proactive contact with clients through the life of the case. And that you're always asking, "How are you doing?" of course, "Any new providers, any new symptoms, anything like that?" So we actually have, I think it's four or five questions that we want to get answered when we talk to clients who are treating and then after treatment, et cetera.

Tim Mackey:

And I will tell you, too, that we want that particular contact not to be through an email or a text message. That particular contact should be by Zoom or phone. And there's a reason for that. A lot of times a client will say, "I'm fine." And if you get that through text, you read it as, "I'm fine." If the client says, "Yeah, I'm fine," you want to pursue that. What's going on? Is there some hesitancy there? And we've actually had some experiences where a client says, "I feel like I'm getting better, but I'm also having some tingling here." And then, "Oh my gosh, tingling? What could that mean?" So if you are not contacting that client and listening closely to how they respond, then in our opinion, you're not getting the most value out of your cases because one of the questions we asked legal assistance, paralegals, case managers, whatever the terminology is for your support group, is "How much time do you spend responding to client calls that are checking on their case?"

Tim Mackey:

And we have heard from, "Hey, 10% of my day," to "75% of my day." And if we hear those higher numbers, what that's telling us is we're playing defense instead of offense. We're not asking those questions that we should be asking that can drive value of cases because we're just simply not getting that information. And if you wait too long to do that, you lose the opportunity to ... I'm not going to use the term medically managed, but advise on what the client should be doing. That's our counselor hat again. And those are the things that drive case values. "Hey, have you talked to your doctor, you've got tingling, about an MRI? Has he even considered injections?" And we're not managing them. We're just being what we say we should be, their advocate to get them to ask questions. And that drives case value.

Judd Shaw:

One of the questions I have for you, really, Tim, in talking about, really, the fact of all of this comes down to your frontline worker, your team member, who are the ones who are really carrying out that message. And they're the ones who have to listen for the word, "radiating," have to recognize in active listening that when the client says, "Oh, I'm fine," it really means, "Maybe I'm not so fine," right? Or looking at the data and saying, "Why are my numbers down, or even why are they up? What am I doing really well? How can I do more of that?" Right?

Judd Shaw:

And it's always not necessarily a negative, but really captivating a positive here. What are the kind of questions that really should be asked to the team individually in knowing whether they have both those ... I should say the three things that you had mentioned, which is training, the knowledge of it, and really the environment to be able to do it?

Tim Mackey:

No. I think we should continually ask our team, or ask ourselves first, "Have we given our team the training, the tools to do their job? Have we trained them, and do they clearly understand expectations?" And that's the one, Judd, that I think we forget a lot. Expectations of numbers. I'm not going to say quotas. That's not what we want. Just what's expected, and then being able to have them track their numbers themselves to know whether they're doing well or not, and having a system where you can do that. And that's why we often say now that it's not enough for a team member to simply do their job. They have to do their job, and they have to document that they did their job, because if they don't document it, then there is really no ...

Tim Mackey:

We're managing by guessing, and that just can't happen. It's not fair to the team member. Everything is anecdotal. It's subjective measurements. And I'm not saying we shouldn't ever use subjective measurements, but the more objective we can make things, the better it is because objective things are just easy to see. I would propose to you, on the flip side of that though, that the subjective things, the tenor in which you ask questions, the caring that comes across the phone when you're talking to someone is a subjective measurement. And I think we should do that, too. I think the subjective things in our lives are the most important. If somebody asks me how much do I love my wife, I don't say, "Hey, it's about a seven." It's hard to say what that is, right? It's hard to objectify some things. But that doesn't mean we can't.

Tim Mackey:

Judd Shaw:

I love it. Yeah. I love the idea that it's the expectations, right? What is expecting of me, and what do you want from me? It's like the virtual scoreboard, right? What does a win look like in a role or function?

Tim Mackey:

See, if we don't define that for our team, I think we've failed as leaders and managers. We just have.

Judd Shaw:

All right. So I have to ask as I wrap up here, Tim, because I think that I was set up once by people that you may know. I was with Micki Love, and as you know, Micki Love is the president of CJ Advertising, who's now with Chad Dudley. And she knew that I was flying to Texas and I going to go to a Vista Consulting event and I was going to go see you. And she said, "Tell Tim I said, happy birthday." And later I realized, I was going to go get you a present, and I was going to sing birthday dinner for you, a cake and something. And it didn't seem like it was really your birthday. What was out of that?

Tim Mackey:

This is so far off the subject, guys. But I'll tell you anyway, and I'll do it without using the words. Micki and I are old friends, and we happened to be working together at the time on a mutual client. And I was driving a vehicle to the client's office, and we were in a city that neither us had really ever been. And I pulled up right to the front door of the client's office. And I said to Micki, I said, "Hey, I was pretty good. I made this without one wrong turn." And she told me, she said, "Tim, if this consulting gig doesn't work out for you, you can be an Uber driver." And my comment to her was, "Micki, I've got two words for you, and they're not happy birthday." So you guys can figure out what those two very short words are-

Judd Shaw:

See, now I have to-

Tim Mackey:

Second word is you.

Judd Shaw:

That's it. So now I got the message that I was delivering to you from Tennessee to Texas. Got it.

Tim Mackey:

In a very good natured, lovable way.

Judd Shaw:

Tim Mackey:

Judd Shaw:

Tim, thank you. And as always, you could reach out to me with any questions or feedback, positive or negative, any type of feedback really always helps me know what topics are most important to you and the subject of building first-class client experience within your company. Certainly, you can reach me at podcast@juddshawinjurylaw.com, and be sure to request some swag in your email, and we'll be happy to send you some merch from my law firm. Thanks again for listening to The Judd Shaw Way Podcast.

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