In the third episode of ‘Inside the Auditorium’, I’m joined by Ruchi Saggar, Managing Director, Global Head of Audit, Commodities and Global Markets at Macquarie. We delve into the multifaceted nature of internal audit, the visibility of senior female leaders in the profession, as well as building awareness to attract talent and shape the future of auditing. 

This episode explores:  

• Diverse skill sets in internal audit: Ruchi highlights the multifaceted nature of internal audit, emphasising that it provides not only technical skills but also essential soft skills like negotiation, stakeholder management, and risk identification. These skills are transferable across various industries, offering rich opportunities for career growth and diversification. 
• Visibility of senior female leaders: There’s been a positive trend towards increased visibility of senior female leaders in recent years. This visibility not only inspires aspiring professionals but also fosters empathy and understanding within management and the business, particularly regarding work-life balance and family dynamics. 
• Building awareness and talent pipeline within internal audit: Ruchi emphasises the importance of raising awareness about internal audit among students and graduates. Initiatives such as recruitment fairs, university outreach, internships, and graduate programs play a crucial role in attracting talent to the field and nurturing the next generation of auditors. 

Don't miss out on this valuable discussion that offers insights into the evolving landscape of internal audit and the pivotal role of women within the industry. 

Enjoy!  

Note: The views expressed by Ruchi are her own and do not necessarily reflect those of her employer. 

Hello Rucci, welcome to Inside the Auditorium, season two Women in Audit. Maybe you could perhaps explain who you are and what you do.

Hi Hazel, and thanks for having me. So yeah, I am Rucci Sager and I am a audit lead covering the commodities and markets sales and trading businesses at Macquarie. I have a long internal audit history covering three different investment banks and always sort of being in that sales and trading space.

And in terms of the different banks that you've worked for, what do you think has made you sort of move around with those banks and who are they?

So I started my internal audit career at Goldman Sachs. It was an absolutely great training ground and I learned a lot and I think all of my audit foundations were from there. I was there for about six and a half years and I think just one of those times when you come back from having had your first child and things were a little bit different and I think that kind of caused me to look around. I also had a great manager who'd moved on to Citigroup and offered me a role there. So I went to work for him and that's where I was then for the next six or so years. And I really enjoyed my time there, built up a team covering the global commodity space and then this opportunity came up to join Macquarie and it was very interesting. And so again, having been there a number of years, it felt like the right time to make a change.

Okay. And can you elaborate on why the interest was at Macquarie?

So I think my previous role, as I mentioned is Citigroup was very much focused on the commodities business, whereas here I'm covering all of markets again. So it's that opportunity to kind of broaden out and cover the whole portfolio

And being doing particularly markets that you do now, do you find that, did you just fall into it within internal audit or was that a particular career choice in terms of what products you wanted to audit?

A little bit of both. When I qualified as a chartered accountant, I knew I wanted to move into financial services and investment banking. It was something I hadn't experienced before, so there was a bit of thinking there. However, in terms of which team I actually joined when I started at Goldman, that was actually a little bit more chance.

And when you left college or university then, was that sort of a conscious choice to go into external audit to become an internal auditor or did you just call into

Absolutely not. That was definitely not conscious. I chose to do the a qualification as an opportunity to keep learning whilst working. It's obviously a great qualification to have and it gives you lots of different skill sets, but at that point, I didn't really know what internal audit was. I probably hadn't heard of it, but when I was kind of nearing the end of my qualification, I started to explore what the options were. This one came up and I thought it was quite an interesting way to learn about an industry, about a company, get an opportunity to learn about all the different functions. And at that point it was to maybe find where I would eventually land up, learn about the bank and then find out where I'm going to work. But obviously many years later I'm still in internal audit.

And tell me, has there been anybody instrumental or a mentor that's given you advice that's helped you throughout your career?

Yes, definitely. I've had two or three, but two probably stand out the most previous managers who I've retained friendship with and they are my go-to people whenever I'm questioning something or I have a thought. And yeah, they've been really instrumental in helping me to challenge myself, helping me to think about things that I may not otherwise have thought of.

And is that from just in terms from a management perspective or from an internal audit perspective?

I think when I was working for them as definitely from an audit perspective, being my managers, they often challenged me and that's how I learn as much as I did in those particular phases of my career. Since moving on from working for them, it's more the management, the personal development and the kind of lifestyle choices that you may be going through those kinds of items.

Sure. And in terms of being a manager and running teams now, what do you think makes a good manager?

I think that you need to listen. You need to be able to hear what your team is saying, even if you don't always have the answer that they want to hear. Being able to listen and respond to them and being truthful to them. So sort of being vulnerable so that they can trust you I think is really important. Really important.

So fairly, I guess my opinion is fairly similar to the last year or so in terms of the uncertain economic environment that we're in. There is potentially talent shortages that we sometimes see in cycles and that might crop up. The cyber risk is ever increasing. That's something we need to be concerned with climate change. And I think in a slightly different tact is also the inability to connect with others. So the impact of long-term working from home or remote working. So these are things I think that are important.

And do you think that when you say, well, can you just elaborate on talent shortages, do you mean that there's going to be less people that want to do investment banking audit or do you think that they will need to be more skilled in other areas to be able to do the role now?

Not necessarily that there are fewer people coming into the industry, but I think that because the environment is changing, because the risks are changing quite rapidly, looking for the right skillset, sometimes that skillset doesn't exist yet and even the businesses are trying to upskill themselves and develop. So finding an auditor who kind of has that skillset can be challenging.

Do you find then one thing I have noticed that especially around investment banking and something that was really popular, especially when I was in Asia, was market conduct. So a lot of candidates, because they'd been working within investment banking and knew the products, then it was quite a good area for them also to try and get experience within the financial prime, well market conduct space. Do you find that you've lost a lot of investment banking auditors to this?

A few. Not a lot, but a few. I think it is particularly those that kind of are interested in going into that kind of first line assurance space where they're more focused on that. I think it is a natural next step for some auditors to kind of see what it's like in a different line of assurance. I wouldn't say we've lost a lot, but definitely it's an option available and people know that that's an option that's there for them.

We've spoken very much in the first series around about data analytics and ai. How does data analytics encompass within investment banking audit?

I mean, it is really important and it is important that we keep upskilling the teams at all levels into how to use it, how to develop test plans, how to evolve the way that we are auditing. I think it's really important. I think part of that is understanding the data that you're getting and seeing what you can do with that. And I think that it's an area that's been of quite high focus in investment banking for a number of years and I think it'll continue to be, it's the way forward.

Sure. And do you think, because one thing I've noticed as well with any internal audit role, now that I'm getting really everybody, whatever products line, let's say everybody's asking for somebody who's got knowledge of data analytics, not just Excel, but Tableau and et cetera with regards to investment banking, do you think these skills are going to be, is something that is important and that people really do need to start upskilling?

I do think they're important. I think that it's something that we're trying to upskill in-house and I'm sure that most of the investment banks are doing the same for the kind of junior crop of auditors. I think it's critical, the ticking and bashing that we would've done in my early part of the career, there are better ways to do it, more efficient ways to do that, and I think that that's where that skillset's really needed.

Okay, fantastic. And if somebody does come in and do an investment banking internal audit role and decides that in two, three years that they might want to go into another role, how well do you think a candidate that is siloed doing internal audit investment banking, what sort of roles do you think that they could move into?

I think that internal audit gives you a lot of different skill sets and I think it's about recognizing that the skills that you are learning are not just product skills and technical skills. You're learning negotiation, stakeholder management, risk identification. So there's all these different skills which can be applied across any industry if somebody were to choose to stay in internal audit, but maybe in a different industry. But equally, as we were sort of mentioning earlier, there are other roles in banks and in other institutions I'm sure as well in the first and second line where that risk thinking and that kind of analytical mindset that you develop in internal audit would be very useful.

Sure. And in terms of you being a woman in audit, have you sort of faced any challenges that at Tom?

Yes, I think certainly in my early part of the career when particularly coming back from maternity leave, I think that's a big challenge. I had my kids 12 and eight years ago, so things have changed a lot I'm sure, and we make lots of effort, but it's always difficult coming back from maternity leave. And I think that is a challenge coming back after potentially a year off and feeling like everything around you has moved on, the teams may have changed, the business may have changed, and sometimes there's that real feeling of I have to prove myself again. And I think that's a challenge. Also, I think back, it was only 12 years ago, which sounds a long time ago now, but when I came back to work, going on a flexible work arrangement was not very common. I mean it happened, but there was sometimes a view that if you did that you couldn't progress your career.

It was more of a job. So I think having those conversations were more challenging. We really lucky in the current environment, I think post covid that flexible working is just more common, so it's more supportive that way. I think for returning parents. And I definitely recall a few conversations when I was on my flexible work arrangement and I'd sort of head off on a Thursday evening and be working from home on Friday or even earlier was on a four day contract and lots of comments or some comments of well you've got your long weekend, and it was all in jest. But I think the impact on the individual who was on that FWA and taking that time for a short period was a challenge.

It's very, what's the word? I only work four days a week, but I do find that although I'm working four days a week, I'm actually probably doing five days if not fitting that into that time. Do you still feel that is the same?

Yeah, when I was in my last institution, I remember speaking to a senior female and who was a mentor and I'd mentioned that I was working flexible flexibly and I wasn't in on a Friday and she said to me straight away, you should never do that because you are always going to be working the five days. And part of it is just you as an individual because you have that kind of drive and motivation. And I didn't listen to her. I wanted to protect my time, but I do recognize now exactly what she meant and that certainly is a challenge.

Yeah, it's funny. I still feel really naughty. I still feel as though because I'm so used to working for 20 years, five days a week, having those Fridays off, I still feel really naughty that I'm doing something I shouldn't. And earlier on in your career working for PWC and Goldman's, I would imagine that there was quite a lot of travel. And how did that affect you and your young family at the time?

It's always a consideration. I was fairly lucky when I had my daughter and initially came back at Goldman. There wasn't that much travel, but my role at Citi did involve a little bit of travel. So those first few years were quite a challenge. Whether you're going once or twice a year or five, six times, the kind of logistics of leaving a young child at home and going away are quite challenging. I think that things are definitely, again, there's more options now. Being able to work remotely, all the technology that we have, it certainly allows for you to audit remotely if needed. And I think that's definitely a benefit. It can be a challenge for people who are returning to work and have a job where there's a lot of travel involved.

And do you think that now lots more females are coming back into all it? Because I know that when I first started recruiting and there was younger ladies that were getting married and having their first second child, any roles that did involve traveling and then they would actually go into a second or first line position?

Yeah, I think it was definitely more apparent earlier on in the return to work for females after having children, that sort of ratio would drop quite a lot or people would sort of move on, change their role. I think there was a number of challenges, the travel, the kind of inability to work flexibly and that sort of pressure that you put on yourself when you return. And I think that all of those things have changed a lot over the last so many years. Being able to be flexible. I think employers and managers are far more aware of those challenges. They often have young families themselves. So I think there's less, more understanding, more empathy and less pressure that these things have to happen because there are other ways to work.

And do you think it could still be improved at all? And if so, would you think could happen? In an ideal world?

Yeah. I dunno about ideal, but I think there's always room to keep improving. I think one of the things that has got better, and I've certainly seen it in the last couple of years is far more visibility of senior female leaders who are talking about their experiences or just sort of seeing people who are up in very senior roles and they have young children. And I think the more that you can hear about that or even hearing from senior allies who have wives that are working or who kind of understand that dynamic, I think the more visibility you get, the more that awareness grows. And again, as I said, you get that empathy from management and from the business.

So as a young mum then, do you feel that because more people are talking about it, it releases the pressure from you? Well, I'm not the only person going through it.

Yeah, absolutely. Because again, a slightly different, because we don't necessarily have the concept of flexible work arrangement because we're more hybrid working, but certainly things like wanting to leave to go to the Christmas naivity or to go to a concert, definitely it doesn't feel the same way saying, okay, I'm going to be offline for a couple of hours, I'm going to go do this. You're not the only one. Everybody is doing it and everyone wants to do it and I think it's the right thing to do so that you are able to retain that talent in the workplace and they're still able to be part of their families.

I think as well. People coming in from the home counties and sitting on a train for an hour and a half each way, really working from home, that does give you, well, it certainly gives me an additional three hours on my day. And so it is a lot easier. Okay. Where do you think the war for talent then is going to be over the next few years or over the next couple of years for internal audit?

That's an interesting question. I think that in my experience, hiring an internal audit has always been, I wouldn't say it's always been a challenge, it's not the right way to explain it. I think that you get a lot of movement in audit, so there is often turnover. So it does feel like you're always recruiting. We've been through cycles of, I think even at myself, only hiring external auditors and then changing that model to hiring people from the business, people from the second line who bring in that skillset. And I think the challenge in terms of recruitment going forward is making sure that you have that good balance across your team so that you have the full skillset. Yeah.

And do you think in terms of your more junior roles, and I found coming back that obviously with regards to European candidates at a junior level, that the big fours have mainly been taken on and the more junior roles companies are not willing to really pay for those types of visas. So how do you think we could attract more UK talent into these junior positions?

Yeah, I think that's a very good point. And again, it's more about getting out to recruitment fairs and the universities and getting that awareness of what internal audit is all about. Having an internship, moving onto a grad program is a great way to expose someone to internal audit and to get 'em to kind of join. I think once people have already had some experience in a particular field, whether that's external, it becomes slightly harder. So I think that the more we can get out there and explain what internal audit is, which is very different to what it was 10, 15 years ago, I think that hopefully we get that talent pipeline coming through.

Sure. And do you feel that with being, now with the digital banks coming in line and maybe some of the tech companies, do you think people want to be siloed in one Pacific area, like investment banking or do you feel now that people want to do internal audit and work for that bigger range, whether it's a compliance audit, functions audit, or I dunno, a retail banking audit or what have you?

I think that when I speak to individuals, I think at a very junior level, they don't necessarily have a preference or know, and they want to get that breadth of experience to help hone in on what it is that they're passionate about. I think being interested in what they they're doing is really important and it should be really important. So I suspect we'll probably see that at that kind of junior auditor level. There is more kind of movement between industries as people try to get that experience and try to understand. And then at least historically at that mid-level, you do find that people will sort of specialize for a while because they've found that niche area or they become a subject matter expert. But the competition has changed. As you mentioned, there's far more options and opportunities for an internal auditor to do internal audit in a different area, which is equally as interesting.

Yeah, sure. Okay. Alright, well I think that's fantastic and I think it's really interesting to understand that because especially with investment banking, it's so known for being such a top tier. And just one other question. Do you think the skills then for they were doing retail banking or asset management for an example, do you think those skills are in easily transferable to do an investment banking audit? Or would you say that somebody may be doing market risk or something or something like that would be better transferred into an internal audit investment banking role?

It's a tricky one because I think if you are a really good strong auditor, then your skillset is transferable and ultimately you need to be curious, you need to be analytical, you need to have all that kind of mindset. I think the reality is that once you are at a particular stage of audit and maybe leading as a recruiter, you're probably looking more for somebody who already is bringing some of that technical knowledge because that's really important when you are leading an audit and you are running teams. That's not to say it's not transferable, but yes, somebody coming from a market risk background who already understands a little bit about or a fair amount about the products and what's going on on the desk, it's definitely helpful because they're not starting from scratch.

Sure. Sure. Alright, well fantastic. Well, I'll ask you if you don't mind a quick fire rounds questions that I've been asking everybody. Can you tell me what's the best country visited and why?

Oh, the best country India. I visited in October with my kids for the first time and I think just it's such a colorful place, really vibrant and we had an amazing time seeing so many different things in a very small part of the country. So for me that's a great place to visit.

Sure. And what book are you currently reading?

It's called the Monogram Med is a bit of light reading to take my mind away from the auditing.

And is there a company, it doesn't have to be banking that you admire the most?

No, I don't have a particular company. I'm very people focused, so I tend to admire attributes of particular individuals and I think there's good things in many different places that you can take, so yes.

Okay, good answer. And tell me what's a piece of technology that you can't do without?

Very clearly my phone.

Well, thank you very much for your time today. It's been great to speak to you and have a good day.

Thank you very much.