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Ep 156. Dr. Magdalena Martínez García - How Women's Brains Change Through Pregnancy and Beyond
Episode 1567th January 2025 • The Science of Motherhood • Dr Renee White
00:00:00 00:58:50

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Motherhood is a journey full of transformations. We talk so much about how our bodies change, but what about our brains? In this episode, Dr Renee White chats with the incredible neuroscientist Dr. Magdalena Martínez García, who shares her groundbreaking research on how pregnancy and postpartum literally reshape the maternal brain.

Dr. Magdalena, a postdoctoral researcher at UC Santa Barbara, has devoted her career to exploring the neuroscience of motherhood. Her work dives deep into how hormonal transitions during pregnancy and beyond affect our brains. Together, we unpack fascinating insights about brain remodeling, neuroplasticity, and the lasting impact of this incredible life stage.

You’ll Hear About

  • The Brain’s Amazing Transformation: Discover how pregnancy rewires the brain, boosting areas responsible for social connection and caregiving.
  • Labour’s Lasting Impact: Whether vaginal or caesarean, labour plays a critical role in shaping the maternal brain.
  • Healing Through Birth Stories: Talking about your birth experience isn’t just cathartic; it helps you process and heal.
  • Motherhood’s Long-Term Effects: Explore how multiple pregnancies might influence your brain health down the track.

Resources & Links:

Books for Maternal Brain Insights:

  • The Women's Brain Book by Sarah McKay, a fantastic resource from an Aussie author.
  • Mummy Brain by Chelsea Conaboy, which unpacks the science of motherhood’s brain changes.
  • Neuromaternal by Susana Carmona (Spanish only for now), blending science with heartfelt stories.

Must-Read Research:

Studies from Nature Neuroscience that map brain changes during pregnancy, birth, and postpartum.

Learn more about Dr Renee White and Explore Fill Your Cup Doula Services

Want to be nurtured and nourished after the birth of your baby, have a peek at our doula offerings.

If you want to gobble up our famous Chocolate + Goji lactation cookies, look no further!

If this episode sparked something for you, share it with a friend or tag a mum who needs to hear it. Let’s dive into the beautiful, messy, and powerful science behind motherhood together.

Hit subscribe, and let’s keep learning!

Disclaimer: The information on this podcast presented by the Fill Your Cup is not a substitute for independent professional advice.

Nothing contained in this podcast is intended to be used as medical advice and it is not intended to be used to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease, nor should it be used for therapeutic purposes or as a substitute for your own health professional's advice.

Transcripts

[:

[00:00:27] I'm Dr. Renee White and this is The Science of Motherhood. Hello and welcome to episode 156 of the Science of Motherhood. I am your host, Dr. Renee White. Thank you so much for joining me today. We have got an awesome guest today. Oh man. Ah, this is like. This topic is something that continues to fascinate me on the daily.

[:

[00:01:27] And at the end of last year, a new Nature neuroscience paper was published. Uh, it was called "Neuroanatomical Changes Observed Over the Course of a Human Pregnancy". Again, for all those playing at home, Nature is one of the best journals you can be published in. Um, it's like cream of the crop, so the science is excellent.

[:

[00:03:33] And I had no idea at the time, that, you know, that these changes occur in a woman's brain, you know, to have that kind of knowledge and to know that there was a physiological, a physical reason as to why I was feeling the way I did would have been amazing. Like it just would have really normalised the entire process for me.

[:

[00:04:28] And so in today's episode, Dr. Magdalena Martínez García talks us through this latest research. She is a postdoctoral researcher in human neuroscience. Uh, she completed her PhD. In Madrid, Spain with the very well known Dr. Susana Carmona, and as a neuroscientist, Magdalena, she specialises in the impact of hormonal transitions on the structure and functioning of women's brains.

[:

[00:05:36] She's currently a postdoctoral fellow in the Jacobs Lab, which is in the U.S., in California. And I cannot wait for you to listen to this episode. It is so good. I absolutely loved it. Anything to do with looking at neuroplasticity and changes in the brain, I'm all in. So I hope you enjoy this episode. Here is Dr. Magdalena Martinez Garcia. Hello and welcome to the podcast, Dr. Magdalena Martínez García. How are you today?

[:

[00:06:19] Dr Renee White: Lovely, lovely. Thank you so much for joining us today. Um, as I said offline, this is an area of much discussion and lots and lots of interest in our field.

[:

[00:07:20] Now we are gonna dive into that research in just a minute, but for all the listeners, would you just like to introduce who you are, what you are doing in your current studies? And also something that I always ask our scientists on the podcast is, how did you get into this field? And why did you become a scientist?

[:

[00:08:14] I feel like that's my expertise during the past seven years, including my PhD and together with my previous supervisor, Dr. Susana Carmona, maybe you've heard of her. She was really one of the first ones to launch in this field and in her lab, we launched and conducted different longitudinal cohort studies with first time mothers and we, we scan them before pregnancy. During pregnancy and then in the postpartum, as you say, um, when we started a few years ago, we prioritised the scanning women at key points during the maternal transition, we try to capture, you know, like, critical points that we hypothesised were essential to capture the specificity of the maternal brain.

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[00:09:25] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

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[00:09:56] And we did, and then we saw that these changes partially reversed in the postpartum. So that was kind of like the first cohort that we had as a group, I must say that in 2017, the first article, the one that really launched the field was published in nature neuroscience. And I was not part of the, of Susanna's lab at that point, but it was kind of like the paper that, uh, made Susanna realise, uh, she, she wanted to like, um, create this lab and, um, really like, um, undergo this research, and then I started working with her. But before that, in 2017, she published this paper where they, um, they scanned first time mothers again before pregnancy. So at preconception and then in the postpartum period. And that was the first study. So no pregnancy scans, but it was like before and after pregnancy.

[:

[00:11:08] Dr Renee White: Yeah. I mean, we, we hear about the gray matter changes and it's funny because people synonymously hear, gray matter and your brain shrinks during pregnancy and you hear people talk about, Oh, baby brain and fogginess and things like that. So when, when we hear about gray matter shrinking, what is actually going on there? Why do we know why it's shrinking?

[:

[00:11:52] It was not a widespread phenomenon, meaning that, uh, these gray matter reductions were more pronounced in specific regions of the brain, uh, namely the regions that are involved in, in. social cognition and the theory of mind and all this like cognitive empathy that is hypothesised to kind of like help mothers to attune with their babies.

[:

[00:12:51] So you mentioned that, um, you know, there's, I think there's a whole debate in the public around what's known as mummy brain and, um, just mothers having these like cognitive, um, environment during pregnancy. Um, that literature is being kind of debunked right now. It's the literature say that there is like a slight declining cognition during pregnancy, but it doesn't affect the, you know, the daily, functioning.

[:

[00:14:06] Yeah, for instance. Yeah. Like. Um, uh, some memory test that involves, uh, things that have to do with just being a parent, right? So, yeah, we are, we are there trying to refine that. Um, what else could I say in terms of functioning? So we did find an association and we found this association a couple of times, meaning in different cohorts, independent cohorts.

[:

[00:15:03] Not to say that this structural change is preparing someone's brain to be a parent, because I think that being a parent, this is like a learning process, but I'm talking more about maternal behavior and that like maternal bonding between the mother and the baby, um, which in the animal literature in rodents, Um, there's a lot of papers and literature showing how the pregnancy hormones, um, activate these maternal behavior circuit so that the mum after the childbirth displays these, um, these immediate maternal behavior.

[:

[00:15:56] Dr Renee White: Yeah,

[:

[00:16:19] Dr Renee White: Yeah,

[:

[00:16:51] Dr Renee White: Yeah, absolutely. And, and, you know, you kind of see that we saw actually, I think it was last year or the year before we saw a study come out and the, it was a classic case of the media grabbing like a single sentence out of the publication and running with it and it was the case where I think she might have even been an Australian researcher.

[:

[00:17:52] It was just, here's, here's something that we saw that was kind of cool. And yes, there seems to be some sort of like alignment with it. It's not X equals Y, which is what everyone was trying to like put out into the media. So I totally hear you. And I think the other thing that I like, I do say this a lot in our interviews.

[:

[00:18:40] So everyone just cool, cool your gates and just, um, you know, just appreciate what, what the researchers have just found out. Um, yeah. Okay.

[:

[00:19:24] She forgot, uh, her kids or whatever, but we are not appreciating the massive metamorphosis that that woman is going through that is making her reprioritise everything. And it's like multitask, multi planning, you have some, something growing inside. Um, it's mentally challenging and also metabolically challenging.

[:

[00:20:03] Dr Renee White: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. Well, we might, we might dive into actually, before we go into the, the, the research research, I'd love to know how, how did you get into this? Because I mean, for me, I have a personal kind of, you know, story behind how I got into research and why I kind of chased what I chased. But is there, do you have any kind of personal connection or what is it that drew you to this particular field?

[:

[00:20:37] Dr Renee White: Yeah ok.

[:

[00:22:06] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[:

[00:23:04] So that's amazing. And that's what I wanted. I wanted to kind of like take a step back and be able to look at women's brain health from a more comprehensive perspective. And that's what I'm doing in my postdoc, but the mothers and pregnancy is always in my heart.

[:

[00:23:57] And I wasn't aware I said at the time in the interview, I'm going to have to dive into PubMed and have a look. Do you, is there research that there are other neuroplastic kind of events with perimenopause or menopause? Is that something that has been investigated or is going to be investigated?

[:

[00:24:21] Dr Renee White: okay.

[:

[00:24:29] Dr Renee White: Yeah. There's not a, there's no solid paper yet.

[:

[00:24:37] Dr Renee White: Yeah. If anyone's listening, actually, please tell us.

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[00:25:13] Dr Renee White: Right.

[:

[00:26:12]

[:

[00:26:17] Dr. Magdalena Martínez García: I think, I think it's not a utopia. I think we can do it. Um, we've done it before with infants and adolescents. Um, the ABCD, uh, data set is following adolescence for a decade. So we could do it for women. Um, yeah, we are there. We are there trying to get there. Okay.

[:

[00:27:16] Let's talk about the recent paper. Um, who we had Laura Pritchett and Emily Jacobs who were kind of head heading that up, um, published in Nature Neuroscience in September. Let's dive into this. As we kind of alluded to, we had previously had studies where there was kind of single time points and we thought we knew what was going on and there was some, you know, beautiful data that came out of that. Can you explain to us what this particular study was and how it was different? And again, what did the research show? What were the unexpected things that happened?

[:

[00:28:44] But, like, I would say, single time points that are kind of like, apart from each other. And with these articles, we really generated the evidence, the statistical with the statistical power. Um, there was, uh, neural, uh, remodeling, uh, really pronounced neural remodeling happening there that deserve to be characterised with precision imaging. Um, so this is when Laura Pritchett and Emily Jacobs came in and in 2021, we had the first call. I presented our, uh, studies. And they before doing this study, they've done other beautiful, uh, precision imaging studies of the menstrual cycle with and without contraceptives. I recommend everyone also to go to these papers.

[:

[00:30:09] They scanned that woman who was Laura, um, every day for a month. And in this case, for this article, they wanted to do, like, bi-monthly scams, which is also like incredible temporal resolution for gestation. So that's the uniqueness of this article is that they based on the, all the evidence that we had, they said like, okay, now that we know that there's something going on there, we're going to scan one woman first time mother, um, with really fine, uh, resolution.

[:

[00:31:22] They did a great job. Laura is a rising star and yeah, very honored to be working with her right now in other projects.

[:

[00:31:49] Um, so they, like they saw, you know, similar things that validated previous studies, you know, the gray matter shrinking and things like that, but there was something, there was a few other things that happened, which they hadn't previously seen, which they would have, uh, which previously they would have missed, right?

[:

[00:32:57] They also captured changes in, uh, in the CSF of the brain in the hippocampus, which is like, um, specific subcortical structure that has been involved in memory and cognition. Um, so what they found that was really novel was like different trajectories in all these different sequences. So for example, they did replicate the gray matter reduction and then partial recovery, but then they observed that with weight matter microstructure, the, the trajectory was like increases during the first trimester up to the second trimester and then slowly decreases.

[:

[00:34:49] Dr Renee White: And is there any hypotheses around that change in white matter? Like, do we know what might be going on there?

[:

[00:35:38] Dr Renee White: I think when I was reading the paper, one of the things that I loved about it was the fact that obviously the, as you say, this is kind of like a pilot study of, okay, we've done this with one person, but the data is fully open access. I love that. Um, and also in the discussion, I think, uh, they were talking about the fact that this is possibly a springboard for other researchers to look at, you know, changes in the brain that may be instrumental for things like postpartum depression and or anxiety. I'm not sure what the stats are currently in the United States or, you know, Spain from where you're from. But, um, here in Australia it's reported that one in five mothers experience that post postnatal depression. Um, I would argue that, that's probably outdated data from someone who works on the front line with mums. Um, I'd probably say it's closer to one in two, one in three, just based off your reading and research.

[:

[00:37:13] Dr. Magdalena Martínez García: So the current state of the literature in terms of brain change is linked to postnatal depression or prenatal depression. I wouldn't say it's a scars. It's not a scars. I think there's a good deal of papers, um, scanning with MRI mothers with and without depression, but I think that as of right now, there's like, one design that is really predominant in the literature that is cross sectional design, meaning like single time point during the postpartum scanning a group of women with and without, uh, prenatal depression. We have, uh, several reviews and meta analysis, um, summarising the findings of these papers. Um, but I feel like the future is in longitudinal designs. I mean, maybe it's because it's, uh, where I come from, but I do think that if we want to end up, uh, doing, uh, drug discovery if we want to discover, uh, risks, uh, for postnatal depression that can be detected during pregnancy or even before pregnancy.

[:

[00:39:11] Um, it's kind of like a lot. We do know that it's one in five, but, um, when you do cohort studies, sometimes just, uh, because you are just selecting a sample from the population, you do not get those stats. So it's kind of difficult, so what we are, what I think is needed right now and we are also trying to, um, lead efforts on that front. Is to be large scale databases to collaborate between researchers that are collecting data and try to build something bigger where we can find rare outcomes where it's, uh, it's not rare, but you know what I mean?

[:

[00:39:52] Dr. Magdalena Martínez García: Like prenatal depression. Uh, but, yeah, I do think that it's really like, our cohorts, the ones that, uh, Emily is leading to all these longitudinal studies that we are conducting they have multiple benefits. We can use them to test our specific hypotheses, but then we can, we can put them open access, um, so that researchers can use them to, you know, test many other hypotheses. And I think one of the main values is to be able to, to build, um, predictive models with these  longitudinal studies. So the more we are interested in this, the better we need analysts, we need stats people to be looking at this. So yeah, I think it's really valuable too.

[:

[00:41:22] That's a huge, I think, career milestone and, um, It's just amazing. So your paper was looking at the neuroplasticity during gestation, childbirth and postpartum and you were focusing on, um, if there was any difference between a c section versus vaginal birth. I would love for you to talk the listeners through what did that research look like and then what did you find?

[:

[00:43:40] Dr Renee White: right

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[00:44:18] Dr Renee White: Did you look at, sorry, did you look at if a, if a woman had been induced or not, or was it spontaneous?

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[00:44:28] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

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[00:45:00] Dr Renee White: Yeah,

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[00:45:34] It's just a very rare outcome. So we did find significant differences, but we are now trying to see if they replicate with other cohorts. We still don't want to make like really strong conclusions on that finding. But I mean, from a biological perspective, it makes sense.

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[00:45:55] Dr. Magdalena Martínez García: Um, It's not the same going through a labor and not going through a labor, but yeah, we still need more, more data, more evidence to kind of like agree on that.

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[00:46:11] Dr. Magdalena Martínez García: So, uh, in general, what we found from late pregnancy to early postpartum was, so we found that in late pregnancy, gray matter change was reduced, right. Like that, that was coherent with our previous findings.

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[00:46:44] Dr Renee White: Right.

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[00:46:59] Dr Renee White: Yeah,

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[00:47:15] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Yeah.

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[00:47:44] Dr Renee White: Okay, that's going to be very interesting. Very interesting. We are going to jump into our rapid fire now, um, was there anything else that actually before we do that? So we've kind of touched on a few things that you're starting to explore as well. Was there anything else that you wanted to give us a little, um, sneak peek of what's on the horizon for the lab?

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[00:49:04] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

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[00:49:29] Dr Renee White: That's, that's amazing.

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[00:49:52] Dr Renee White: I love that. Cause yeah, my understanding is that, um, in each and every pregnancy that you still get that beautiful remodeling of your brain. It's not just first time mums and then that's it, right?

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[00:50:23] Dr Renee White: Okay. Another to be continued. I love that. Okay. Let's jump into our rapid fire. What is your top tip for mums? And you can come at it from like a neuro kind of angle if you want to,

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[00:51:48] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[:

[00:51:50] Dr Renee White: That's a great tip. That's a great tip. Um, yeah, we highly encourage, I always say that to the mums that I work with good, bad, or ugly, talk about your childbirth. It's nice to process that as well. Do you have like a go to resource? Like you, you know, as you said, you've been working with mums and things like that. Is there anything that you found along the way that, you know, is helpful for mums, whether it be a book, a workshop, you know, some people have offered poetry or, you know, even a quote or anything like that. Is there anything that you've seen that kind of stands out for you?

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[00:53:28] And I, that, that book, I think it's also like, she, she talks from a personal perspective. She's a mum of, uh, uh, eight year old daughter and yeah, everyone that has read it, um, has felt really emotional about it. Um, just because of the way that she combines her personal story and her research. So, yeah, I also recommend that one.

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[00:53:59] Dr. Magdalena Martínez García: Yeah. Yeah. I haven't read it. I'm just trying to see if it's on my list. I mean, there are several books, uh, Lucy Jones, uh, Jodi Pawluski also published a book. I think it's called mummy brain. No, uh, Chelsea Conaboy, I think she also published another book on this. Um, so yeah, I, I feel like all these books, um, I really like them because the authors have interviewed the researchers and they are reflecting the study that all the research that we are doing. So

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[00:54:59] Dr. Magdalena Martínez García: Oh, what do I keep? Um, I think, just my phone

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[00:55:08] Dr. Magdalena Martínez García: I'm not, I'm not, um, yeah, I don't, uh, read in, in the bed, um, when I'm in the bed, I'm just sleeping. Yeah. Okay. I think I just have my phone.

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[00:55:29] Dr. Magdalena Martínez García: I'm off. But then when I wake up, I'm one of those persons that, first thing in the morning, I check my notifications.

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[00:55:40] Dr. Magdalena Martínez García: Not PubMed, but I check Slack. I check Gmail. I check like, I don't know. I like it. I just to prepare for the day. I just quickly check it. And then it's like, okay, I know more or less.

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[00:55:57] Dr. Magdalena Martínez García: Like, unexpected things are. Yeah. It's going to happen today. And then I'm more prepared. Yeah.

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[00:56:27] Dr. Magdalena Martínez García: Yeah. And I'm the same. I'm the same. I think I need to check my phone first time in the morning, because then in these, in the next two hours, while I have breakfast and everything, I start to process everything, like what's, what's going to look like.

[:

[00:57:06] I know we always kind of whinge, particularly here in Australia, that women's health research does not get enough funding, but I think we're kind of slowly, slowly, you know, chipping away at that. But this is really, truly exciting stuff and I can't wait to see what you do personally. And as well as the lab in the next, you know, five to 10 years, it's going to be really exciting.

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[00:57:36] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

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[00:57:54] Dr Renee White: I love that. That's really beautiful. Okay then we'll thank you so much for your time and to the listeners, we will see you next week. Bye.

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[00:58:19] You've just listened to another episode of the Science of Motherhood proudly presented by Fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula village. Head to our website, ifillyourcup.com to learn more about our birth and postpartum doula offerings, where every mother, we pledge to be the steady hand that guides you back to yourself. Ensuring you feel nurtured, informed, and empowered so you can fully embrace the joy of motherhood with confidence. Until next time, bye.

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