In our 200th episode, we welcome back radio veteran Mike McVay, winner of the 2024 Giants of Broadcasting Award among many other accolades. Known for his programming excellence and industry insights, Mike shares his expertise on evolving leadership roles, integrating niche media, and revitalizing the listening experience. He discusses future challenges, innovative digital marketing strategies, and the importance of effective leadership. Famous for his consulting work and contributions to radio's evolution, Mike offers invaluable advice for navigating today’s media landscape and achieving success in radio. This episode is packed with lessons from a true industry expert.

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Radio still has a great reach, but we have allowed the

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listening experience to deteriorate.

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VO: Brandwidth.

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Rebooting radio with a different

take on all radio can be.

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Mike: I think radio has to fail

much worse before it gets better.

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Mm hmm.

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That's the controversial part.

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VO: Now your guides through the

mediamorphosis, David Martin, and

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author of the book, Brandwidth,

Media branding coach, Kipper McGee.

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Dave: Hey Kipper, today we

celebrate our 200th episode.

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We do it with someone well versed

in navigating the ins and outs

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of the evolving media landscape.

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The celebrated radio veteran, Mike

McVay, from an impressive programming

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run on the station and corporate levels,

he now returns to consulting, which

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he's done before very successfully.

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Mike offers invaluable lessons for

aspiring radio professionals on

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more things than you can imagine.

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Program development, content

perfection, navigating the

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ever changing media landscape.

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Mike shares the secrets to building,

refining and perfecting your career

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in today's competitive media industry.

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Brain With On Demand is proud to

welcome back for our 200th episode,

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Industry Sherpa, Mike McVay.

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Hey Mike.

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Hey.

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Mike: Thank you.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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But, and what an honor to be on

the 200th episode of your podcast.

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I, I, I'm sure I don't need to

tell you gentlemen how amazing

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that feat is to be 200 episodes in.

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Congratulations.

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I appreciate the opportunity.

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Kipper: Well, we are so glad to have you.

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What advice do you have for professionals

entering the new leadership roles that

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are emerging, the new title changes,

the new actual shifts in responsibility

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to adapt to organizational culture

and Still drive positive change in

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a very sometimes negative world.

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Mike: Well, I remember years ago, one of

my bosses when I suggested we give someone

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a title said to me, well, my experience

is people elevate to whatever that title

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is, and they'll try to do that job.

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And so titles are really very important.

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And as the business has changed, content

creator means so much more today than it

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did when we were lowly program directors.

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And I joke when I say lowly

program directors, because that

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job's still very much the same.

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It's just, I guess we were

always content creators or brand

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managers in what we created.

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I think that the thing I would tell to

people today who are entering radio is,

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radio is mass media, but you want to

take advantage of every part of niche

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media It's involved with this mass media,

meaning, yes, be over the air and on the

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radio or be a content creator, developing

things that are for over the air on the

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radio, but also utilize social media

as a way to drive people to the brand.

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Utilize digital in any way you

can, YouTube, video, audio, every

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platform, podcasting, and then

make sure that a smart speaker

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and an app can get all of it.

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What we've seen over the last few

years, particularly the pandemic, is

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the acceleration of people listening

to bytes of content versus sitting

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down and devoting hours for content.

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And so I think that that's one

of the big things that's changed.

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Now, why do I qualify mass

media versus niche media?

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Mass media reaching everyone is

still important to drive niche media.

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Niche media has a difficult

time surviving on its own.

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Niche media is exactly that.

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When you look at the DSPs, which are,

you know, Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon

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Music, so on, that's an amazing business.

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And for all intents and purposes, it

has become the record store for today.

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But radio, media in general, mass

media has a greater reach than

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what any one of these DSPs have.

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And so that's what I would say to

someone coming in today, be prepared

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to use it all, not one part of it.

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But use it all.

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Dave: And Mike, what do you see in

terms of new challenges on the horizon?

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If you look out a bit, maybe a couple

of years down the road, what do

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you see coming that media companies

are going to have to deal with?

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Mike: Well, I think that they're

dealing with a lot of it now.

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Probably the most controversial

thing I can say is the audio media

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companies, and let's say radio,

whether you're hearing it over the air

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or on a stream or an app somewhere.

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Radio still has a great reach as

mentioned, but we have allowed the

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listening experience to deteriorate.

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And so what the biggest broadcast

groups will have to do is find

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new ways to generate revenue while

bringing back the listening experience.

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And so the controversial

part of it is this.

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I think radio has to fail much

worse before it gets better.

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That's the controversial part.

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Just because right now people

still generate revenue.

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They may have debt problems.

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But they're generating revenue.

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And until we get to that point that

someone can bite the bullet and run fewer

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commercials and reinvest in the product,

we'll see a continual deterioration, but

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at some point it will get good again.

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I'm not a naysayer saying

it's never going to come back.

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But I think we've got to fail more

before anyone can bite the bullet or that

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they can sell to someone inexpensively

enough that they can invest what it

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takes to bring the old girl back.

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Kipper: Yes.

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It's struck me that one thing that might

do that is some sort of major disaster

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or occurrence that causes people to

need radio because you're not going

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to have internet with no power grid.

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And if I were attacking us,

the interweb is probably one of

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the first targets I'd go after.

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So we can laugh a bit at it, but

those old C Crane commercials for

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the hand crank radio that might have

reality as well and may just have.

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Mike: Yeah.

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Yeah,

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Kipper: I don't know.

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May just have a little influence

in the need for that again.

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If the thermonuclear weapons don't nullify

everything we're trying to send out.

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Mike: I hope it doesn't take a

nuclear war to bring radio back.

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But I do think that, the major

companies, look, they, these

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companies have debt problems that were

created by the early consolidators.

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For most part, you have a new group

of operators in there, and they're

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bailing water as fast as they can.

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But I think that until that debt goes

away, they're not going to be able to fix

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the challenges that face radio because no

one can afford to cut back on commercial

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load and generate less revenue right now.

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Dave: Well, I'm with you.

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I'm with you.

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Kipper: And great morning

duos are becoming singles and

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the cuts keep on keeping on.

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Mike: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It appears that way right now for sure.

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Kipper: Speaking of budget cuts and

things that have been trimmed back from

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what they once were in a recent column,

you suggested that we approach radio

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marketing with a fresh perspective in

some stations are starting to do that.

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Some companies are, but most are not.

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Could you elaborate on how you

see stations adopting innovative

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strategies to really rejuvenate

their brands and to engage with

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their listeners, as you were saying?

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Mike: You know,

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Kipper: it's really

practicing what we preach.

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And so many radio stations, many

radio companies are now trying to

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battle with the digital ad sellers.

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Mike: They're out there selling digital

ad space in Google ads, they're doing

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Facebook, they're attacking social media.

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They should be advertising

their own brands in these areas.

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They should be promoting something

that could bring a person to a

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radio station or could create an

interest in that radio station.

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Digital is such a key competitor to

radio, and when I look at what my friends

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who are in the advertising business

do and how they've taken radio and

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TV dollars to focus on neighborhoods

with digital ads, It's scary.

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And so that's exactly what we should

be doing for ourselves in using

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digital marketing to promote our

talent, the music we play, the content

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we air, the sports talk and so on.

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Dave: Excellent point, Mike.

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Mike: I would also say this though.

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One of the things that I learned at the

most recent NAB is how Geo broadcasting

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systems and targeted broadcasting can

allow an advertiser to buy a neighborhood

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instead of buying a huge reach.

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And so a very good friend of mine in

the Cleveland area buys advertising

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for JD Byrider, and the only thing

he really buys in radio and he

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is more radio or TV, is sports.

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And so when we were talking about it, he

said, the thing is this, I put so much

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of my money into digital because I can

better target it when I buy advertising.

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I don't need the 200,000

person Cume on a morning show.

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I need 25 people to come into JD

Byrider and purchase a car this month.

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And so I think geo broadcasting

targeted broadcasting, which the

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FCC has out there and is approving,

that's going to be something that

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we can take advantage of as sellers.

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For advertising, but also

for marketing and delivering

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content that's better targeted.

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Dave: You've made a point of this many

times over the years, and that is leaving

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a station better than you found it.

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How do you do that today?

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Mike: I think the easiest thing to

do is do your job while you're there.

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We're all hired in the content

side to improve ratings.

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We're all hired in the

sales side to improve sales.

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Do your job and accomplish that.

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And then as you're exiting,

train your successor.

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Inform your successor.

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Bring them into the loop

and be a cheerleader for

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them to help them do better.

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We, particularly in programming,

maybe not so much in the other sides

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of the business, but particularly in

programming, all too often when a program

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director leaves a station and it's

maybe third in the ratings and they're

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very proud of it, And it goes down, it

becomes an ego boost to them because

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they're saying, see, look what I did.

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They can't get, they wish they

had the ratings I used to have,

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Kipper: right.

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Mike: But your job is to make

it better and improve it.

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So it continues to improve.

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And what really prompted all that was I

was in a Cleveland radio Facebook group.

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And someone had taken a shot at me

not realizing I was part of the group.

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And by the way, I don't mind that

because if you're going to put a

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spotlight on yourself, you got to be

ready for people to throw tomatoes.

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But the comment the person made

was, is what has Mike McVay

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ever done in Cleveland radio?

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Every station he ran did

better after he left.

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And my response was, Isn't

that what it's supposed to do?

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I signed magic in Cleveland on

from scratch and we built it up to

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number one, 25, 54 adults and the

people after me did really well

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with it and made it even bigger.

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Wasn't that what's supposed to happen?

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And then now shift that as a consultant,

if you hire me to consult you and the

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station fails, then I'm getting fired.

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But if you've hired me to consult

you, you've hired me because you

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want to improve where the station is.

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And make it better.

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And so it should be set up that it

continues to do well after a departure

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of whoever your consultant is.

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And so how do we do that today?

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It's when I said, Dave, I think

you do your job to the very best,

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but then you hand that baton.

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To the person coming behind you.

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That's what you do.

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Kipper: So Mike, we talked a little bit

about what this means for corporations

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and what companies are going to

be facing looking into the future.

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But if we turn the lens and look

more on the content creators, the air

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talent The promotion people, even the

online folks, what do you see as an

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opportunity for individuals to position

themselves for that success amidst

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the ongoing challenges, changes, and

yes, people who would like to put

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them down for doing better or put

the station down for doing worse.

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Mike: Well, I mean, there's a book

that I love called the Brand You 50.

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that Tom Peters had done years ago,

and it's a book that I recommend to a

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lot of different people because it's

talking about you as an individual brand

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and one of the lines in there, which,

by the way, also comes out of the One

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Minute Manager, which is when I give my

clients what they want I get what I want.

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And so if I am successful as a program

director, brand manager If I am

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successful as a promotion director, if

I'm successful as a seller and I give

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you what you want, I get what I want.

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And so I think that the opportunity for

individuals is to excel at your job.

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Unfortunately, editorial comment,

he says, I believe we're living

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in a world where a lot of people

just are happy to get through.

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And that's not just our business.

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It's every business.

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And so I never considered

myself that smart.

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So I decided I had to work harder

and I did okay by working harder.

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I still, today I'm a nine to nine

guy, start my work day at 9 AM.

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I finish it at 9 PM.

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Cause that's 6 PM in the West coast.

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And I have clients that are bi coastal.

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And so if I do that, I know that I'm

giving my clients what they want.

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And it allows me to continue

to excel at what I want.

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So how do people who are individuals

inside of an organization

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do the best job they can?

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Figure out what it is.

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Your superior leader wants and deliver

that and if you don't want to do

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that, then you should leave You should

leave the people that I talked to

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who tried to change the system Often

end up failing and get fired Because

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they just weren't a cog that worked.

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Now that's a sad statement, right?

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Because there's a lot of brilliant

people who've been eliminated from

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jobs where if they were allowed

to do it the way they wanted, they

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probably could have succeeded.

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But there's also that possibility

that doing the way they wanted

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would have brought down other

parts of the radio station.

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And so you got to be a team.

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You know, how often do we see a great

quarterback, a pitcher, a goalie in

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hockey, who doesn't mesh well with

the team they're on, and they leave,

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and then they win a Super Bowl.

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Or the Stanley Cup, or Major League

Baseball World Series, and there's no

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better analogy than looking at what

we content creators do, than sports.

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You gotta be on the right team

that will maximize your ability

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and take advantage of it.

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And you fighting with the

manager just gets you benched.

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Find the right team.

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Dave: The always insightful Mike McVay,

after 200 episodes we've talked to

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a lot of guests, but not everybody.

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If there's something you'd love

to hear from or a topic you'd like

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us to explore, well, let us know.

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Email us show at BRANDwidth on

Demand.com or reach out to us on

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social BRANDwidthPlus on Instagram,

Facebook and X that's BRANDwidthP L U S.

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BRANDwidthPlus.

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Kipper: If you're new to the podcast, we'd

like to say welcome and please be sure

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to follow wherever you get your podcasts.

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And if you've been with us for a

while, Please be sure to tell a friend,

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spread the word future episodes: we're

going to be talking to radio pros like

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David Moore from the Audacy Phoenix

market, media researcher turned top

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rated podcast producer, Mark Ramsey.

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And if you've been wondering how Chat

GPT can help with local show prep

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for local hosts, stay tuned for the

announcement of Radio Content Pro.

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Dave: Coming up, we asked

Mike McVay about advice.

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VO: Luke?

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Leia?

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Not likely.

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Spot1: Hey, kid.

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Where is that sound coming from?

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I don't know.

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That's 3-PO.

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Well, sir, it's Altu.

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He's been playing music all day.

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Well, it's terrible.

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I like Bruno Mars as much as the

next guy, but three songs by him

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in 20 minutes is getting a bit old.

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Well, sir, what time is it?

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I've heard about Musicmaster.

289

They're the galaxy leader

in music scheduling.

290

There really is no other.

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Not so fast.

292

There is another side.

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No thanks.

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But Luke, I am what?

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Part of the evil empire?

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Yeah, we know.

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That changed to a maybe.

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Nice job, kid.

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RadioContentPro.Com slash BRANDwidth.

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VO: Listen today, lead

tomorrow, Brandwidth on Demand.

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Dave: We're talking with an

industry thought leader that

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we all respect, Mike McVay.

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Hey Mike, what's the one single

best piece of advice you've

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gotten in your storied career?

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Mike: Wow.

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I mean, I've had so many

mentors and learned so many

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things from so many people.

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Probably there were a couple of brothers.

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Yeah.

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Jim and Bob O'Brien who owned radio

stations in Canada and one time we

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were sitting in a meeting talking

and I was talking about the strategy

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and the steps we had to take to

get where we wanted to be and Bob

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O'Brien said to me, You know what?

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Why wouldn't we make our best move first?

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Everybody always says we're going to

do this, we're going to do that, and

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then we'll make our best move last.

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Dave: Oh yeah.

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Mike: Why wouldn't we

make our best move first?

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And that one really stuck with me.

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I don't think it's applicable to

every situation to be honest, because

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there are times when we know we have

to go from A to B to C to get to D

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and have D shored up and do well.

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But it was one that really stuck with me.

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You know, the biggest thing that I've

presented to programmers, and I'm going

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to divide it out a little bit, cause

the job changes, but with programmers,

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it's the golden rule, do unto others

as you would have them do unto you.

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And so when you're treating talent

poorly, that's bad, Treat talent the

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way you want to be treated, communicate

upwards to your superiors, the way that

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you would like to be communicated with.

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And so for the content creator

side, I really try to get them to

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understand and apply the golden

rule on the side of management.

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I try to get people to have a more global

view cause it's so easy to be in a smoke

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filled building and not see the exit sign.

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And so if I can get people just

to hit pause, to step away.

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And see where the fire started,

then there's a greater chance

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for them to put the fire out.

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And then probably one other one that

I learned, Musicmasterwhen I got to

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one of the big three radio groups

and that is the weight of your words

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are heavier than ever and the ripples

they create greater than ever.

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When I came from the consulting

world and Dave, you and Kipper

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both worked in large corporations

and had those big executive roles.

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But my last full time job where

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And so, when I joined Cumulus in

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consultant, while people do consultant

jokes, by and large, they like you.

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Suddenly, that wasn't the case.

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Suddenly now, I'm in a corporate

world, and everything I say is

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put under a magnifying glass.

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Or everything I don't say.

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Dave: Yeah, right!

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Mike: Why was that omitted?

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And that's put under a magnifying glass.

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And so one of the many times, I mean,

in the first year at Cumulus, I used up

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about five of my nine lives and in one

of those cases that then CEO pulled me in

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and said, you know, Mike, in this role,

everything you do will be scrutinized.

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The weight of your words

heavier than ever, the ripples

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they create greater than ever.

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And that's probably the

wisest thing I've learned.

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Yeah.

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That's a great advice.

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Yeah.

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Our thanks to Mike McVay, he's

always on time, isn't he Kipper?

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Links to Mike's website, socials, and

recent articles all in the show notes.

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Just scroll down on your phone.

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Kipper: As always, special thanks

to exec producer Cindy Huber for

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putting everything together and to our

associate producer Hannah B for booking.

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Dave: That's a wrap, Kipper.

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We can all learn something

from the words of Jerry Garcia.

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Don't be the best.

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You'll find it in the show notes.

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It's the new One Minute Martinizing.

381

I'm Dave Martin.

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Kipper: And I'm Kipper McGee.

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May all your BRANDwidth be WIDE!