Transformation and Redemption: Frank's Journey from Incarceration to Empowering Others

In this episode of the Prisoner's Pardon podcast, host Michi J interviews Frank, a re-entry recruiter at Partners in Hope who was formerly incarcerated. Frank shares his inspiring journey of transformation and redemption, detailing how he changed his mindset and life circumstances through faith and self-discipline. He emphasizes the importance of rethinking one's habits, humanizing oneself, and not giving up. Frank also discusses the impact of his incarceration on his family and offers insights into his work helping others re-enter society smoothly. Listeners are encouraged to reach out to Frank for guidance and support.

00:00 Introduction and Welcome

00:56 Meet Frank: From Incarceration to Inspiration

01:28 Changing Mindsets: The Journey to Renewal

03:22 The Transformation: From Big Frank to Frank

08:01 Respect and Identity: A New Way of Living

12:01 Family Impact and Personal Responsibility

16:21 The Role of a Reentry Recruiter

21:51 Discipline and Habit Changes

25:57 Final Thoughts and Contact Information

Guest Information

The Community Warehouse and Partners In Hope- Milwaukee WI

Hello everyone.

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And welcome to a

prisoner's pardon podcast.

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I'm Michi J your host.

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And today we have a special show.

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As always, today we are

going to be talking to Frank.

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Frank is a good friend of mine.

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He is a employee of Partners in Hope.

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You heard me talk many times

about Partners in Hope.

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It's a great, great organization.

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He is the re entry recruiter there.

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Now Frank was formerly incarcerated,

but he is out and he is doing great.

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And I want you to hear from him because

he is doing some amazing things.

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Now let me introduce you to Frank.

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Hi Frank.

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Hi, how you doing miss J?

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Hey, how are you?

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It's good.

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Good.

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Good.

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It's good to have you on the show.

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I thought I would have you on

because you have an incredible story.

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I want you to talk about, you know, what.

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What it is that you do at Partners in

Hope, and what are you all about now?

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Because people need to know how

great you are and what you're

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doing there at Partners in Hope.

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Well, what I do here, I'm the re entry

recruiter here at Partners in Hope.

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And what I try to do is get men and

women who have been impacted by the

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system to change their way of thinking.

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, the way they thought before they went into

the system and the way they're thinking

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now needs to be just totally different.

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And I discovered that, throughout

my 26 years of incarceration, that

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I had to change my way of thinking

in order for me to be able to come

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out back in here to society and be

able to function or be successful.

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And when I say successful, I don't mean

in a monetary way, but I mean, just

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in a practical way of just being able

to live out here and not just exist.

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So you mentioned you had to

change your way of thinking.

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How did you do that?

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Well, , basically I had to really , just

strip myself down from what I was and

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who I was to become the person or the

man of God that God had , designed me to

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be, you know, uh, if I may use scripture

in Romans chapter 12, verse one, it

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talks about us renewing our minds.

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And I believe that's where it had

to start in the renewing of my mind.

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So to renew my mind.

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All the things that I thought about

I did as a child as a person growing

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up before I was incarcerated.

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I had to just really detach those

things from my way of thinking

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from my being totally in order for

me to be able to rebuild myself.

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, if you take the analogy of, uh, a

potter, a person that does pottery.

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When they mess up on a particular,

uh, piece that they're working

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on, they'll, they'll tear it down.

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They'll tear it down and rebuild

it to shape it and mold it

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to where they want it to be.

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And so that's what I

had to do with myself.

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I had to allow myself to be torn

down, stripped of who I was.

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and say the old name Big

Frank and become Frank.

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And in order for me to do that, I had to

just detach myself from all my ways of

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thinking, the people that I dealt with,

the things that I did, the places I went,

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the books I read, the TV shows I watched,

the music I listened to, all those things

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had to be just changed and renewed.

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Now, some things I held on to, I

will tell you that I still like jazz.

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I love my jazz music.

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, I still like some old R& B stuff, but

I'm real particular about that as well.

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, and I knew once I started that process,

it just became a continual thing

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with me where I no longer desired

to do the things that I'd done as

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a, as, , prior to my incarceration.

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Those things did not, , entertain

me anymore or excite me anymore

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because I found a new way of living

that was more profitable for me.

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Okay, that's pretty good.

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So you said you had to strength.

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I like how you went

from big Frank to Frank.

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because those sort of nicknames kind of

kind of dictate behavior a lot, right?

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That's correct.

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That's correct.

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As Big Frank, I was more of the,

uh, the mean, um, bully, uh,

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intimidator type of individual.

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I remember in high school, a young

man used to tell me in high school,

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like, you could smile sometimes.

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And my persona, Was just that it wasn't

a whole lot for me to smile about

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because I was just trying to intimidate

you growing up and say at 17 was she

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she mentioned that to me and that stuck

with me as I grew into this young lady

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to tell me that because this is what

she's seen and I wasn't like I wasn't

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that approachable person that I really

wanted to be though I had that about her.

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Thought in my mind that I

wonder why people didn't

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approach me in a certain way.

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Well, this is what I was given

up that I really didn't want

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to be approached by people just

by the persona that I gave off.

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So you said, , your name kind of signified

that, um, you wanted to be intimidating.

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So why did, do you know why you

were wanting to be intimidated?

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Uh, yeah, I could say yes

because as a, as a younger man,

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I was intimidated by people.

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And so as I grew up and, my

body stopped filling out, I

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started maturing physically.

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, and I got some size on me.

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Well, now I can be the intimidated

cause I was intimidated.

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And most, I would say most.

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Men or women who grow up and become

like that is because of what happened to

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them in their childhood, in their past.

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And now they're saying, no longer

will I be the one being intimidated.

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I'll be the intimidated.

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Because, you know, you don't

want to feel that way anymore.

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So now you want to do it, not kind.

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You don't think constantly like I

don't want nobody else to feel how I

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felt growing up, but you just do it.

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And so that became a part of who

I was and, growing up in my day.

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Uh, yeah, you wanted to be a man.

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You walk in the room and everybody

just kind of look at you and say,

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yeah, you know, you show that strength.

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So that's just who I, who I had become.

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Okay, that makes sense.

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So we kind of, we, we get

dealt that hand sometimes.

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And so we start dealing it

out to others unknowingly.

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When did you consciously

start realizing that it was

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something you were dealing with?

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unconsciously doing?

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Was it when that young lady told you that?

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She kind of gave me some awareness of it.

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So I was around 16 or 17.

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Then she gave me an awareness of it.

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But though I kept going living that way,

but it was just over a course of time.

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I noticed that people, gave

me that type of respect.

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Uh, but that's where the

name Big Frank came in.

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And so that respect came

along with my actions.

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And so I guess that's how I gained

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other things that I had accomplished.

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Because I intimidated people.

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So that's what, happened.

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Yeah, I like how you mentioned respect

because everybody wants to be respected

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and that's just how you got that respect.

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So I can see how that can be easily done.

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I'm sure many people, want

that sort of respect.

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Not necessarily in that way, everyone

deserves respect is we should

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actually be giving more respect.

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So now that you're not.

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Being big Frank, do you

get respect still as Frank?

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Sure.

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I get respect now because

of how I carry myself.

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I get that respect now because, the

person I have become over a course

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of time, people have seen me, And the

words that come forth from my mouth.

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That's how I live my life.

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Now.

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I just don't speak the words and not

walk it, but I walk the walk that I talk.

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And so the respect comes out of that,

you know, how the integrity that I have,

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, people just have come to know me now

at this age and over the last 26 years

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that I was incarcerated of how I carried

myself and how I dealt with individuals.

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It wasn't a more of a, thing of trying to

intimidate them, even though I was in the

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correctional system and you would think in

prison you had to be, uh, disintimidated.

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I'm used for lack of words.

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My swag that I had as a, as an

individual prior to my incarceration,

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the swag was still there.

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I just use it in a different way.

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Right, right.

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So when we choose the right way to

get the necessary things, we can

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still get gratification from it.

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We can still feel good about it.

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Am I understanding this right?

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Because you still, you've got the

respect that you were wanting in the

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first place, but you got it with.

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Being a man of character, being a man

of character, being a man of God.

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, and if I may allude to this, uh, again,

to Apostle Paul, prior to his conversion

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on the Masters Road with Christ, he lived

a certain way because this is how he was.

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Taught under the Sanhedrin.

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He was taught to be this

particular individual.

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He thought what he was doing was

correct, but it was not correct

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the way he was living his life.

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And so the respect he got then

was from an intimidation fact.

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You know, he was , a persecutor of

the Christians and stuff like that.

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And so that's what he got his respect for.

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But when he became, a man of God

and he was living, uh, for Christ.

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Swag is the same use, I'm say use

the same word, that swag that he had

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as the persecutor of the Christians.

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He still had it, but he was just

using it in a different way.

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'cause now he's more informed on

what he really should be doing.

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He was misinformed at one time, now

that he's been given this particular

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knowledge and he's living for Christ now.

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His way of living.

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He's still that same individual.

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He just lives a different way now.

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So when people see him, they say,

well, that's because that scripture

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said, well, that's the guy that

was persecuting the Christians.

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And they said, no, no

longer does he do that.

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This is how he lives now.

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So he gained that respect by how he

became how you start to live his life.

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And so the same way with

me, uh, understanding that.

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I lived a certain way and I carried

myself as a man, , walk upright

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with my shoulders up straight.

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I still do that.

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But now how my mission in

life is different than it

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was at that particular time.

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Okay, so you know, first he was Saul,

but then he just like you, he went

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from, he went from big Frank to Frank.

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He went, but God changed his name

and meant something else, you know?

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So he was a new person and

that's the same for you.

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But I like that you brought this

story up because Paul was persecuting

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his own people, the Christians,

because he was converted.

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So a lot of times.

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When we get into the system, we

kind of persecute our own people,

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meaning our communities, our

family and stuff like that.

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So you have a family.

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I know you have twins, right?

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You have boys.

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, I'm pretty sure, like anybody, when

we do stuff, it affects our family.

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And did that have any impact

on you , to actually change?

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It had a big impact on me.

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I have five children, three

sons and two daughters.

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Okay.

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And when I left the street and went into

the correctional system, my eldest son, he

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hit the street because now my leadership

was no longer there in his life.

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So he hit the street and he ended up doing

13 and a half years in the federal system.

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, And I believe that's because

of my absence in his life.

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He didn't have that father figure

there right in front of him.

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, my twins that you spoke on, I

only lived on the street with

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them a month of their lives.

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Uh, just by the grace of God, their

mother, , she had a, , a lot of

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influence upon their lives because

of the way she lived her life.

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My daughters, , now they're both,

, parole officers, but my absence in

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their lives was crucial because now

they don't have that father figure

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or that male figure in their lives to

show them, basically this is how a man

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should treat a woman or, cause that's

very important to women, I believe.

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And so, um, And change in my life

and me wanting to change that was

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the main thing, me wanting to change

and be who I knew I should be.

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Let me say this right quick.

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It was my aunt Sarah came to visit

me in the county jail when I first

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got incarcerated back in 96, and

she said, you need to find yourself.

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Because the man that committed

this crime, that's not you.

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And she knew me very well from a child.

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She knew me when she

said, no, that's not you.

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You need to find yourself

because that's not who you are.

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That's no, I don't know.

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That's not you.

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And so when I searched scripture

and God said, let us make man and

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our likeness and our image, and

that allowed man to have dominion.

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over the world.

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Uh, that gave me understanding that

in order for me to be who God had

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chosen me to be, I need to find

out who I really and truly was.

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And for me to ever be a father, or

a husband, or a son, or uncle, or

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grandfather, or a great grandfather, I

really need to find out Who I was, and

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as I searched and started to unpeel, to

peel these layers off of me, this, this

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mess off of me, and then, then Frank

started to blossom and bloom in the world.

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Then I started to understand, this

is who I really am right here.

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I'm not this person right here who

did the drugs or who took a life.

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I'm not this person who was out here

being an intimidator or stuff like that.

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That's not who I am.

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I am a child of God.

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I can, I can be this child of God and

still carry myself in an upright and a

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strong manner as God has chose me to be.

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I'm not a weakling or anything like

that, but I had to realize who I

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really was and who I really am in

order for me to really become a man.

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See, I was a male.

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When I went into the prison

system, I was not a man.

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I was just a male by

gender only by gender.

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And I wasn't a, I had not become a man

in the sense of who I was chosen to be.

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But, , my being responsible, a man of

integrity, uh, stuff like that, that

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was not who I was when I went into

the system at 35, I was just a male.

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That was it.

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I'm glad you made that point because.

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, a lot of people don't know what a man is.

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They just have that gender and it's

a character and have an integrity,

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taking responsibility and leadership.

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And yeah, we see this a lot

within our community and.

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When you said about, you know, you

didn't have that leadership, your son,

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it's like, it is whether we like it

or not, we are leading them wherever

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we are going, wherever we are at.

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And, it's something we have to

pay attention to that kids do.

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They are watching us.

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Not necessarily what we say, but

what we do and they will follow you.

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, yes, yes, , That's

something to keep in mind.

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I really applaud you for what you've been

doing because you're in the community.

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You are a reentry recruiter.

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And how does you know what you've

been through, how does that help you

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do your job as a reentry recruiter.

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I believe it helps me because I'm,

I can relate to where they've been.

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And trying to get them to

a whole different mindset.

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I relate and I can prior to going

to prison, I used to work with men,

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uh, with young men from eight to 20

as a basketball coach in the summer.

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Right.

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And I know in order to relate to them, I

had to kind of like get down in the dirt

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with them pretty much, you know, and, uh,

Paul, you know, Paul made that statement.

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He said he becomes all things to all

men so that he may win them to Christ.

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So I got to get to their level.

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And so because I did , , this largest

over a quarter century of time in the

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system, I know where they're coming from

and being out for a couple of years now.

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I know the hurdles that, that

they're going to have to face because

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I still first face some hurdles

myself now, but now I take, I look

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at the hurdle and I said, I figure

out how do I get over this hurdle?

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Not that it's just going to be, , some

of this going to stop me because I

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ain't thinking what is stopping me

is me if I allow that to happen.

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And so when I deal with these men

and women that are coming out of the

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system, I want to relate to them.

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I want to hear, I want to

know what they're all about.

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I want to know where they want to go.

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I don't care where you've been.

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I don't care what you've

done in your past.

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I want to know what do you want to to

do, where are you trying to go, and how

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can I help you get there, and if I could.

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Uh, pour something into you.

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If I can give you something, give

something back to you that was given to

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me, that's going to help their lives,

help them to move forward in life.

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That's my goal is to, and it

really, my goal is to make them

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feel human, is to humanize.

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These men and women because,

you know, going into the system,

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you're stripped of who you are.

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You're stripped of just your name.

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You don't because you no longer

name you're now a number.

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And so I want them to feel him.

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I want them to feel love.

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But I want to understand that.

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Hey, this is not a game out here that

that that you're going to be living in.

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This is for real.

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This is a real game.

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It's not a play game.

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This is a real game.

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And if I can get them to understand that

if you learn the rules of engagement

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out here in society, you'll learn

how to be more successful at staying

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out here, then going back because

it's easy to go back into the system.

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It's real easy.

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They wait for you to come back.

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But if you can learn the rules of

engagement out here, learn how to live

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and live a life and you can be productive.

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You don't have to go back

to the streets to do it.

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You can get a job.

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You can get a career.

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You can be somebody.

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Okay, just take myself.

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I never thought I, I never knew

that I would be in the position

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that I'm in now job wise.

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I did not know that 28 years ago,

but here I am, I'm in this position.

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Why?

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Because of the changes that

have been made in my life.

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And I just want to give

back to the community.

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So as a re entry recruiter, that's

my, that's my goal is to give back.

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And to help people that's coming

out the system be able to reenter

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back into society with a smooth

transition because it ain't gonna

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be easy, but it can be smooth.

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It's not easy.

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Nothing's easy out here,

but it can be smooth.

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And that's my goal is just

to make it smooth for them.

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And that's like I said, I relate.

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To what they've been and what

they're going to be going through.

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I like that.

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, I think we need more people that touch

people that are reentering that those

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people be someone that have been there.

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So because they are more.

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Relatable and I believe in a chain,

like, not, you know, where a links,

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I should say, where 1 person does

this part of you touching right away.

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You are at the right.

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I think position and, , God

really has you there for that.

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And then we, you link

up with other people.

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That kind of pull them out even more

like you've got the first hand, you

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know, and then as you're pulling,

we have the next hand, , someone

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that's probably been out further,

, been, linking to something else.

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So, cause it, it takes, I do believe

in the old tradition, the adage of

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it takes a village to raise a child

is, not that to say the person is

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a child, Everybody needs someone.

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Anybody in any position only got

there because of someone else.

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They didn't their own.

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Um, so with them knowing that, and they.

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They have to be around the right people.

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Like you said, they

have to want to change.

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So you obviously wanted to change

, and you said, humanize them.

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And because so many come out

institutionalized, meaning that they

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did not make any decisions themselves.

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They mostly everything they were

told to do this, told to do that.

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So when they come out, they're not able.

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Am I understanding this right?

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You were you that way you weren't

able to start disciplining yourself to

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say, Oh, this is, , I need to do this.

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Let me go do this.

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, did it take a while or did

you just come out doing that?

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Knowing what , you need knowing

that you need to discipline

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yourself rather than having somebody

telling you exactly what to do.

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No, , I had started disciplining

myself, the first year I was

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incarcerated, I started doing certain

things that I knew I needed to do.

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I stopped doing certain things like

I wasn't a person that sit out and,

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um, I didn't do a lot of board games,

playing cards or stuff like that.

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No, that I had to occupy myself

with other things, reading

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or studying stuff like that.

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Right.

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Um, I knew like I wasn't going to stay, I

wasn't going to be standing up late night.

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Because that's when I got in my,

that my trouble happened late night.

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So I needed to get that out of my

system that I wouldn't just be up,,

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in the correctional system, like on

the weekends, Fridays and Saturdays,

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you can stay up to like midnight.

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No, I wasn't up to midnight.

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I'm back.

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My routine was I'm going to

lay down like nine, 10 o'clock.

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I don't need to be out here.

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Uh, for lack of words, kicking it.

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I did down the street.

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That's what got me in trouble.

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So I disciplined myself

not to do those things.

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I disciplined myself not to

given the officers a headache,

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that's not what I'm there for.

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I'm there to get myself together.

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And so once I realized that as I,

as I was going through the system,

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things actually became easier for

me because it was easy for me.

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A man told me once, he was a guy

that was dealing with the salvation.

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I mean, he used to come to visit me names.

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His first name is Tom.

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And he, uh, depicted me as that fish

that swims upstream against the curry.

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And he said, Frank, anybody

can swim with the curry.

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Anybody can do everything

that everybody else is doing.

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He said, but I see you as an individual

that you go against the grain

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from what everybody else is doing.

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And that stuck with me

to say, okay, Frank.

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He sees something good in you

because you're not doing, you're

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not part of the status quo.

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And I never really want, even

growing up, I never wanted to do

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everything everybody else did.

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I wanted to be me.

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But once I, so once I discovered who

I, who I was and who I am, it became

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much easier for me to go against the

grain of what the status quo was.

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And so I believe out here in society.

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I had to continue to go against

the grain or what everybody else

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will want to do the easy thing.

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Let me let it be hard,

but for me, it's not hard

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that's a good point.

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I like that you said it's, those

small things that you did right

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off, like, you change your routine,

what you would normally do for us.

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Stand up later because you knew bells

were the times that you got into trouble.

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So you knew not to be

out during those times.

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I'm glad you pointed that out.

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Is that what you're trying to say?

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People need to do.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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You have to change your habits.

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If your habits change, you will change.

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, that's a given.

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That's a given.

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I like that you said that because so many

people they think about it when everything

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like this whole big, big, big steps

when actually it's these little things.

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You need to do probably just

one get used to that and then

433

you go to the next little habit.

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You need to change just what they

are Hebrews chapter 12 verse 1 says

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that we should lay aside all those

things that so easily beset us.

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Those are the small things that

you were just talking about.

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Those easy things that will

set us, that will hold us back.

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We got to lay those things aside.

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When we do that, I can guarantee

you that in the process of change,

440

your change comes along a lot

easier and it sticks to you.

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It sticks to you.

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It becomes permanent.

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In you, because again, the, the

large thing everybody can see is

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those little small hidden things

that we do that nobody really see.

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Those are the things that

we have to get rid of.

446

Thank you for pointing that out.

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Now, as we wrap this up, what

is 1 of the main things you

448

want the listeners to know?

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To do being that you've come from out

of prison and served a number of years

450

and now you're a reentry coordinator.

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One of the things I want to

say is this is something that

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someone gave to me that giving up.

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It's not an option.

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It's not an option.

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I cannot give up what I'm trying

to do in my life because that's

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only going to set me back.

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And I believe that if the audience

would just take the time to learn

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themselves and not what somebody has

placed upon them, they will become

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that person that they need to become.

460

Learn yourself.

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It's okay to say no.

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It's okay to detach yourself from family

or friends that may pull you down.

463

It's okay.

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Sometimes it's okay to be

alone in this, in this world.

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It's okay.

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Because when you're alone, you learn

more about yourself and just live life.

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Don't exist.

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live life.

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And when you live, you begin to live

life to find out that it's good.

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It's good.

471

It's pleasurable.

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And this is what God had intended for

us to do to live and not just exist.

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So I go back to what I said,

giving up is not an option.

474

I like that.

475

Well, thank you so much, Frank.

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I really enjoyed having you on the

show can we give out your information

477

for people to contact you for

family members who may be having.

478

out pretty soon because you

aren't a reentry coordinator.

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Please, please give my information.

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It would be the contact

information would be F.

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Penninger P.

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E.

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N.

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I.

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G.

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A.

487

R.

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at the community warehouse dot org.

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And I'll give him my phone

number if that's okay.

490

Sure.?

491

4 1 4 5 3 1 4 5 0 1.

492

. Well, that's all today, folks.

493

Thank you for listening.

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Remember if you have loved ones

who are incarcerated, who are

495

about to get out, please contact

Frank here in the Milwaukee area.

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If you're not in the Milwaukee area,

you can possibly still contact him

497

and he can, give you some pointers.

498

Thank you so much, Frank,

for coming on the show.

499

I really enjoyed you

500

Thank you, miss J?, for having me.

501

You're welcome.

502

Thank you for listening and have

a week filled with blessings.