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I’ve Got 5 Law Firms, with Steven Gursten
Episode 7820th May 2025 • Founding Partner Podcast • Jonathan Hawkins
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Steven Gursten of Michigan Auto Law has recovered the largest ever auto and truck accident settlement of any Michigan lawyer or law firm. He has also received the top reported auto accident and truck accident settlements and jury verdicts in Michigan over multiple years, according to Michigan Lawyers Weekly and Verdict Reporter.

Steven has been selected a Lawyer of the Year by both Michigan Lawyers Weekly newspaper and Best Lawyers. He has been voted consistently among the top 50 attorneys in Michigan (out of over 65,000 lawyers) by Super Lawyers.


Steven is a past-President of three American Association for Justice (AAJ) Litigation Groups - the AAJ Traumatic Brain Injury Litigation Group, the AAJ Distracted Driving Litigation Group, and the AAJ Truck Accident Litigation Group. Steve is also a past-President of the Belli Society and a past-President of the Motor Vehicle Trial Lawyers Association. He has also been selected annually since 2018 as a JD Supra Readers’ Choice Award winner – Top Author in the Insurance category for his writing on Michigan’s auto No-Fault laws and insurance litigation.


Steve speaks throughout the country, teaching lawyers on such subjects as trial advocacy, traumatic brain injury, truck accident litigation, and on maximizing auto accident settlements.

Transcripts

Steven Gursten: [:

Jonathan Hawkins: Hmm.

Steven Gursten: means that we are rejecting nine of every 10 cases. But guess what? That 10th case is a really, really good case. And, you know, if you are just selecting that 10th case every single time, can build an enormously profitable law firm. So, that's what I've done and I kind of then apply that to these other areas of law. And you know, the point is what I did is not unique. And anyone listening to this podcast can do that and they should do that, and they should do it now before it becomes harder and more competitive and more expensive.

Jonathan Hawkins: You know, a couple things about that. I mean, the first thing I'll say is, you know, most lawyers are just working their ass off. They're busy and they're tired and they're just, they're not thinking about it. And so part of it is, I think you gotta have some quiet time to think that'd be part of it.

it's the sort of thing it's [:

Welcome to the Founding Partner Podcast. Join your host, Jonathan Hawkins, as we explore the fascinating stories of successful law firm founders. We'll uncover their beginnings, triumph over challenges, and practice growth. Whether you aspire to launch your own firm, have an entrepreneurial spirit, or are just curious about the legal business, you're in the right place.

Let's dive in.

Jonathan Hawkins: Welcome to Founding Partner podcast. This is a podcast where I get to interview founding attorneys and learn about their journeys and see what kind of cool and interesting things they're up to nowadays. And today my guest is Steven Gursten. I had the pleasure of meeting him, I don't know, a few weeks ago at a conference.

is really interesting. It's [:

Why don't you tell us about yourself? And maybe, you know, you don't have to give us all the law firms yet, but at least tell us, you know, sort of your main law firm.

Steven Gursten: Sounds good. First, thanks for having me and it's a pleasure to be here. So my name is Steven Gursten. I'm an attorney in Michigan. My, how about we say this, my main law firm, my flagship is called Michigan Auto Law. 25 lawyers. We have two main locations one in metro Detroit and one in West Michigan in Grand Rapids.

So, you know, what I say to my friends around the country is I don't want to take over the world. I just wanna own my state. So.

u know, when we first met, I [:

So. So, yeah, so tell us, you know, I guess maybe that we'll start with sort of what are they and sort of how are they different?

h are great drivers. So about:

They weren't gonna be car accidents anymore. And I was thinking you know, along the lines of like Nasim Tale, how can I become anti-fragile? How can I, create some ballast? So if auto accidents go away and I become obsolete, and by the way, it would be wonderful if I become obsolete, it would be a better world. But I was thinking what are areas of law that could be resilient? And you know, one of those things is people are always gonna have jobs, at least for the foreseeable future, before our robot overlords take over. Right. And people are gonna get hurt on those jobs. That attracted me to workers' comp.

ng workers' comp law firm. I [:

But, I did know the search volume for workers' comp lawyers in Michigan was off the charts. I know the competition when I looked online at the other law firms that were competing for work comp cases at that time I just I thought, you know what, in six months I'm gonna own this entire area law. And I created a website. I bought the work comp firm. They were work comp lawyers I already had been dealing with for years and years that I knew and trusted and I knew did a great job. And we've now grown to, I believe, 10 or 11 lawyers just in the work comp law firm. And we are the largest law firm in Michigan as well doing workers' comp and it's worked out really, really well. So that's, that's workers' comp. I'm sorry.

Jonathan Hawkins: Oh yeah.

y, many millions of dollars. [:

Tell me if you like 'em. I'm not gonna force you to take a case that you don't love. If you love it, work it and we'll split it 50 50. And that has been phenomenal. We have had many, many really, really big settlements as a result. And it's been a fun adventure handling these cases all over the country. My fourth law firm was an idea I'd been holding onto for about six, seven years. [00:07:00] So, Michigan had basically had the worst premises liability law in the country. It was terrible. We had a open and obvious as an absolute bar to duty, so it just wiped out premises cases in Michigan. But I, I always thought I could apply the same rationale to workers' comp, to premises. I had a whole website ready to go, and when the Michigan Supreme Court eventually got to overturning the premises law and brought it back to what most of the countries already like today. I launched it and today we now have the largest premises liability law firm in the state as well. and then my fifth law firm which I started seven months ago is in California where I partnered with a absolutely fantastic lawyer and it's specialized in truck accidents in California, we are headquartered in Los Angeles, which has the benefit of also [00:08:00] being considered a judicial hellhole according to the US Chamber of Commerce. So it's really nice because a a million dollar case here in Michigan turns out to be worth about $3 million out in LA. So there's something to love besides just the sunshine out there. You know, I, I have a really great partner out there and you know, again, same thing with electrocution, same thing with the other websites where I am controlling the marketing, the management. And I'm not licensed in California, although I've been pro hacked in on a couple of big cases in the past. but he is handling those cases and it's amazing as, as incredibly competitive and expensive as the California personal injury market is. We've already gotten a couple really good cases and we've only been live for seven months, which is crazy. We're off to the races and having fun.

ack there. And I'm not gonna [:

Steven Gursten: actually, believe it or not, last night and this morning I really may have started work on my sixth law firm.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, I won't ask you to divulge that 'cause I know you're still infancy stage here, but so yeah, so you got the five law firms. So question I asked you across the tables, why five and not just one. So take me through your thought process.

irst reason. The second was, [:

There's no question. But there is also no question a very large segment of our population that no matter what area of law it is, they will do their research. You know, these are the people that get on consumer reports that, you know, whether it's buying a car or a toaster oven or what have you they're gonna do their research and if they're gonna research a car, they're gonna research their lawyer. And if they're looking for an auto accident lawyer or a truck accident lawyer, medical malpractice lawyer, they wanna find the best lawyer in that area that they can find. So if you're not a giant brand, then. The thought is go deep, not wide, really own an area of law and establish yourself as the total subject matter expert. What's kind of [00:11:00] cool about that is that it doesn't just work for consumers, it also works for Google. So, you know, the analogy I give and this is a little bit of an oversimplification, but it helps bring the point across, right? So you had a giant pizza and it has 20 different slices on it and every slice has a different topping.

What do you call that? Pizza, what do you call it,

Jonathan Hawkins: And everything. Pizza.

Steven Gursten: I mean, and, and you might be an everything lawyer, if they look at your website and, you know, click on the practice areas and they see a dropdown

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah.

you can have lot of amazing [:

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, I mean, I was gonna ask you about the ai, but you know, for the Google and the AI search for sure, but also sort of the old adage, I think, you know, if you market to everyone, you market to, no one. I mean, it's, it's, you know, and it helps sort of craft the message to the specific niche target you're after.

So I think that's fascinating. I think it's, it's genius, really. And I'm gonna get into some of your thought process in a minute, but before we get there, so you've got these five different firms.

Steven Gursten: Can we stop the podcast now since you called me a, we could just end it.

know, and maybe you've got a [:

And then you know, it's hard enough to run one firm, you know, add 2, 3, 4, all of a sudden you're at five. You know, how do you manage it all?

Steven Gursten: So, this could take an hour, this could take 10 hours,

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Gursten: say is it is really helpful to develop a great team that you can rely upon. 'cause you can't do it all yourself. It's great to identify people that can compliment the areas that you're weaker in or just that you don't really like to do. So, I mean, for me, the worst thing in the world would be hr. You know, if one secretary's mad at another secretary and it sucks an hour outta my life. That is my definition of hell.

Jonathan Hawkins: yeah.

evelop long-term, respectful [:

You will forget things. And, you know, I really believe and this is kind of the point of the checklist manifesto. This is the point of books like E-Myth E Myth Revisited is the more you can create systems, the easier it becomes to manage these law firms very effectively and also efficiently. believe in art. So trial law is an art. So, you know, the point is you hire great lawyers. The parts that you can systematize as a way of spreading institutional knowledge and doing things at a very high level. But then you let your horses run and perform at the end. [00:18:00] Because the reality is there's only a certain number of lawyers in this world that have the gift of taking a case that could be worth $1 million and turning that into $5 million. And my value proposition to my lawyers is really simple. I will pay you better than any law firm in Michigan. I've got crazy deals, but I also have almost no turnover. People don't leave, and that's because I create a law firm where the grass cannot be greener. Now the trade off is they have to be excellent and if they are excellent, they will produce more money here and make more money than they ever could anywhere else. But that also helps me. And you know, the reality is if you're not pennywise and pound foolish, which is I think a real problem with a lot of law firm owners, you know, they underpay, they try to pay as little as they can. If you pay for excellence, but you demand excellence, you will make more money in the long [00:19:00] run. You'll keep institutional knowledge and have a more a better culture and frankly just feels good, you know, to be that kind of of owner.

Jonathan Hawkins: Man, you just hit all the big points. I mean. if this is not one of your talks, it should be. And if it's not a book, you need to write it, but it's leadership team systems hire really good people take care of 'em so they never leave. I mean, that's basically it. Right. And the other thing we haven't talked about is you still try a lot of cases too, right?

I mean, you are not one of these CEO lawyers that doesn't do anything. I mean, you're out there trying, like real trials, I mean, multi-week trials, right?

eard me speak on trucking or [:

Jonathan Hawkins: So you, you mentioned Vista and that's, we met at a Vista conference and you gave this talk. It was something about the radical disruption coming to law or maybe that's already here. And I thought it was fantastic. You know, you start out it's one of those scare the shit out everybody at the beginning,

Steven Gursten: Yeah

pening to the practicing law [:

Steven Gursten: There are a couple big things that are coming. A couple big inflection points. The first to me is the introduction of safety technology that is going to dramatically reduce the number of auto accidents on our roads over the next 5 to 10 years. It's already here today but is now going to be mandatory every vehicle sold in America by 2029 must have automatic emergency braking. The Insurance Institute of Highway Safety estimates, that's going to reduce the number of car crashes by about 50%. Now remember, my law firm is called Michigan Auto Law this is what I do.

I actually think it could be more than 50% because I look at my own cases.

hey get smashed from behind. [:

The second thing that's coming, which is fascinating, but is another huge inflection point, is the advent of ABS alternative business structures non-lawyer ownership of law firms. And the astounding amount hedge fund and private equity money that is already pouring into injury. And it is, you know, and how will you be able to compete with just the millions and millions of dollars that are, that will be pouring in into case acquisition, but not just, it's not just the dollars it's also the sophistication. You know, it is, listen as you know, probably better than anybody with what you do and what you see. Lawyers are massively inefficient. We're really bad [00:24:00] businessmen or women. There's very few economies of scale. know, We are paying over the market for pretty much everything from Staples orders to TV commercials and everything in between. We overpay our staff, you know, like, like a private equity company would probably love me because, you know, I am very profitable and I overpay.

tal offices, you know, in the:

Jonathan Hawkins: Oh yeah,

more expensive and even more [:

Jonathan Hawkins: yeah.

Steven Gursten: we are facing.

Jonathan Hawkins: You know, it's. I don't know personally, I don't know if this has happened yet, but I envisioned the situation, I can't remember if you mentioned it or not, but where you've got these gigantic insurance companies that have pools of money and they need to invest it somewhere. You know, they usually buy big real estate and all these things, but I could see them, I could see the insurance company basically being on both sides of the V and no one would really know it.

So it's like they're basically paying themselves in the circle, right?

They, They own the plaintiff's. They own the fund that owns the plaintiff's firm, but then they're the, they're also the one, you know, paying the whatever out. So they're never gonna lose. Right.

rance if you enroll in State [:

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah

Real quick. Thanks for listening. If you're getting any value out of this podcast, please take two seconds to hit the subscribe button and leave a five star review. It would really mean a lot to me. Now back to the show.

Jonathan Hawkins: so there's the other thing that everybody's talking about nowadays that could be. Seen as a threat or maybe a, you know, a bright light, at least in some of the functions that a plaintiff's lawyer does. And that's ai. You know, I can tell you from, I was at a conference the last couple days and it was really hourly type lawyers and that, and, you know, AI is just gonna wipe out, you know, the folks that bill by the hour that huge tranches of that practice are just gonna go away with ai.

s huge pieces of what you do [:

Steven Gursten: Yeah, so if you remember, I talked about AI a little bit as well. So AI is going to slash overhead and costs in things like things like demand packages and medical records and medical chronologies, and helping us prepare for depositions. It the advantages are amazing. You're right, if you are a lawyer that is doing, let's say contracts, wills, trusts, divorce, you know, basic, anything that can be done algorithmically or a large language model with ai, I do think you're gonna get wiped out. And the irony about personal injury is even though most lawyers haven't been in a courtroom in 20 years. But that's also I think, our saving grace, right? Because AI can't try a case, they can't appear in court. You know, there's what something some [00:31:00] several hundred thousand English speaking lawyers from India and you know, now from places like Columbia and, and other areas they are not licensed in Michigan or Georgia to appear in court.

ust can't find them anymore. [:

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, it is. The future is gonna be a lot different. So, you know, the second part of your talk, you sort of gave you know, sort of a framework or sort of advice on how to at least think differently. I mean, didn't get, give specific stuff, but this maybe circles back to when you started looking at your workers' comp firm.

You know, it's thinking outside the box. What can we do? How do we diversify our, you know, revenue streams or verticals, whatever. So what, what's your advice as you see the landscape? You know, how should a lawyer out there be thinking you know, how do I adjust my strategy, whatever, to sort of adapt in this new world?

second best time to plant a [:

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah.

Steven Gursten: But you are right. I mean, that's why we became lawyers to begin with. But there's so many massive opportunities out there. So I might be the only personal injury lawyer in America that, that was an econ major in college, but, you know, but you know what makes a good business? And it's, two things.

ake. And the second thing is [:

So I was watching a football game one Sunday afternoon I'm watching the Lions lose because in 2014 the lions were doing a lot of losing.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah.

link profiles, really crappy [:

So we have a acceptance rate, you know, cases we want basically just about 10%

Jonathan Hawkins: Hmm.

ou know, the point is what I [:

Jonathan Hawkins: You know, a couple things about that. I mean, the first thing I'll say is, you know, most lawyers are just working their ass off. They're busy and they're tired and they're just, they're not thinking about it. And so part of it is, I think you gotta have some quiet time to think that'd be part of it.

But the other thing is, you gotta be looking, you gotta open your mind and look, you know, it's the sort of thing it's almost like your subconscious does some work. You're thinking about it, and then one day you're watching the lions and you are like, I'm gonna do some searches. And then boom, it's there.

And then you're like, all right, I got it. And, you know, most lawyers, at least that I talked to, they're just sort of caught in the cycle. They're on the treadmill and they're not stepping back, looking at the scene and looking at, you know, the. Potential train wreck that's ahead and they're like, wait a second, how'd I get off this train?

you can't stop. I mean, you [:

Steven Gursten: This might literally be

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah.

Steven Gursten: It's, you know, but what I've tried to do, you know, I mean, my first 15 years I wanted to be the best trial lawyer in Michigan, and my goal was to have a great career where people referred me cases. And you know, what I realized is I got closer into that world. don't get me wrong, I still love it. I still try cases, but there's a reason why there aren't very many older trial lawyers. And the reason is it does take its pound of flesh. is hard. there's normally a personal cost. if you really get to know these lawyers, and I, many of them are my friends, but you know, a lot of them are divorced.

ow, there's a lot of stress. [:

It sounds risky when you first hear about it, but it's actually, there's far less risk doing it my way than doing it the way everybody else does it. And I feel like it's given me a lot of freedom as well to be able to pursue. it's family interests, hobbies, 'cause [00:40:00] all the way to the world isn't just on my shoulders anymore. You know, I've mastered the, you know, the thing that most lawyers can't, which is I now have multiple revenue streams and I have checks coming in every day that can open while I'm sitting there on a, you know, by a pool one day.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah.

Steven Gursten: it's, I mean, it's kind of the dream. You don't always have to keep working harder and harder and more hours and more hours to create and generate these multiple revenue streams. It takes a lot of pressure off you.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. And you're as you say, anti-fragile. And it's got me thinking. I'll tell you, I've got some ideas, but we'll talk about that later. But so I wanna, I wanna shift gears a little bit. So you sort of mentioned this, but you know, we met, you were speaking at this conference and, you know, I went on your website and I mean, you've got, I mean, you speak all the time, all over the place.

lunch, you can take them to [:

So the first thing is, you know, early in your career, was this something that you just said, all right, this is my strategy. I'm gonna go speak everywhere. Or did it just sort of happen on accident?

because I became a lawyer in:

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah.

lawyer puts on there. I have [:

Can someone recommend a lawyer? And I had three lawyers out there that all put my name out there, now means not only did that lawyer see my name, and he referred me the case this morning, but several thousand other Maryland lawyers also saw my name. And you become the Michigan guy and that is a hell of a lot more effective than taking someone to launch or

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah.

t two to three phone calls a [:

Jonathan Hawkins: A lot cheaper. Uh, Yeah. You know, it's, it is interesting, you know, I'm with you a hundred percent. You know, I think you know, I started early in my career it was going to lunches and coffees and dinners, you know? But there's only so much time in the day. You only have three meals. I mean, and you gotta do some work too.

It's, It's hard to scale that. I enjoy it still. I mean, I enjoy the human contact. But, you know, when you speak, there's the scalability aspect, but then also, I guess sort of the expertise aspect and then. If you actually can speak well, then there's sort of a demonstration aspect. You know, I don't know what, let me hear your thoughts.

s invited to speak and then, [:

Steven Gursten: You become very forgettable very quickly.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah.

u do it, the easier it gets. [:

And if you get on that list where people are putting you out there, you know, the invitations are just gonna keep coming in and coming in. And people that hear you speak in the audience are gonna keep inviting you to speak at other conferences as well. So it just, it, everything builds on itself, but you have to deliver. And you have to treat it like you should. That this is a mark of respect and you should take it really seriously.

term from somebody else, but [:

But I'm with you as well. You know, I mean, you could almost treat it like it's, you know, you're not gonna go in front of it. You shouldn't at least. Go do a closing argument in front of the jury not prepared for that. It's not gonna end well. I mean, maybe you get lucky but yeah. So, we've been going at it for a while.

We haven't even talked about, you know, sort of how you got started and all that, so maybe we'll have to come on again for that. But another thing you've, done and this is maybe speaking as part of this, but you're involved with a lot of national groups. So you know, you primarily practice in Michigan, but again you're very involved in some of these national lawyer groups and other groups like that.

awyers, you know, get out of [:

Steven Gursten: Yeah, so I, that is exactly my advice. So I realized fortunately very, very young, very early in my career, that when I speak in Michigan, being from Michigan, everybody calls me, but they're not referring me their cases for the most part. They just want free help. they just want my work product, they want my, my trucking rugs, you know, they want to know if I can give them a copy of my closing argument that I got on, you know, my last big verdict, what have you. Everyone's kind of mooching and, you know, listen I'm all for helping your brothers and sisters in know, your local bar, but it's not making your life that much better.

nd get the referral fee. So, [:

Jonathan Hawkins: Great point. I mean, it definitely benefits you building the practice, all that. But it's the friendships and the relationships. I mean, that's really what being human's all about. And the more you got it, the better. So, okay, last question. This may be a little complicated, but I like to ask as [00:53:00] you look forward for the next 5, 10, 15 years, you know, what's the vision for your firm?

But you've got multiple firms, so I, you know, you decide how you wanna answer it. So what, you know, what, what does the future look like for you?

, let's go back to, you know,:

Jonathan Hawkins: Wow.

s really going to be. To me, [:

So things are moving too quickly.

n on, or maybe they got a, a [:

What's the best way to find you?

Steven Gursten: Best way is through my website, which is Michigan auto law.com. Michigan auto law.com. So, Jonathan, thank you so much for having me. It was really a pleasure. I really enjoyed it.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah, this has been fine. Thank you.

OutroUpdatedWebsite-1: Thanks for listening to this episode of the founding partner podcast. Be sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts to stay up to date on the latest episodes. You can also connect with Jonathan on LinkedIn and check out the show notes. With links to resources mentioned throughout our discussion by visiting www.lawfirmgc.com. We'll see you next time for more origin stories and insights from successful law firm founders.

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