Houston might be known for its outsized personality, but every two years, during FotoFest, the city becomes a swirling epicenter of photographic art from around the globe. This year, to mark 40 years of pushing the boundaries of photography, FotoFest’s 2026 biennial, Global Visions, is bringing together a dizzying array of artists from over 58 countries. But what does it take to wrangle over 450 artists and hundreds of works into a two-month citywide celebration?

Enter Chris Wicker, the unflappable exhibitions manager at FotoFest, and, as it turns out, an obsessive media-sampler, self-diagnosed denim junkie, and master of absurdist art. In this episode, Chris unpacks the coordination behind “Houston’s global photo party” and how his own art practice peels back the layers of Southern culture, NASCAR rituals, and the unstoppable flood of American consumerism.

Episode Credits

Host: Scott 'Sourdough' Power

Guest: Chris Wicker

Production: Crewest Studio, Los Angeles

Theme Music: Ricky Pajot & Desi DeLauro of Parlor Social

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Greetings and salutations, my creative brothers and sisters.

Welcome to Not Real Art, the podcast where we talk to the world's most creative people.

I am your host.

Faithful, trusty, loyal, tireless, relentless host.

Sourdough coming at you from Crew West Studio in Los Angeles.

How are you people?

Thanks for tuning in.

We do this for you.

It's all about you.

And so we so appreciate you being here with us today.

Because today, today we have the one and only Chris Wicker from Texarkana, Texas or the town Houston, Texas that you might have heard of.

And Chris is here to talk about his incredible work, not just as an artist, but as the exhibitions manager at Franklin Photo Fest coming up in Houston for its, I think 40th year, which is incredible.

So before we get into that, you know, I just, you know, want to say, you know, I don't know, happy New Year.

This is I guess the second episode of the year.

We're now monthly show and you know, scaling back for a bunch of reasons.

But the shows are going to be as awesome as always with incredible guests like Chris.

And you know, Chris is going to be part of our first Friday's exhibition here coming up in February and we hope you check it out@naralart.com he's one of several artists in the group show that we're putting together and Chris Wicker is a new media artist from Texarkana, Texas.

Chris has had solo exhibitions and spaces across Texas including Blind Alley in Fort Worth and in the New Media Gallery at the Louise Hopkins Underwood center for the Arts in Lubbock, Texas.

His work has also been included in multiple group exhibitions in Chicago, in Rustin, in la, in Dallas, among others.

Internationally, Chris has been a part of exhibitions in Hiroshima, Moscow and the Netherlands.

Currently practicing in Houston, Texas.

There, Chris maintains his role as Exhibitions Manager for Photo Festival coming up from March 7 through May 10.

This spring, the Photo Fest Biennial returns to Houston Sawyer Yards Exhibition Spaces and Arts District Houston with a showcase of creative discovery and thought provoking imagery.

The works on View by over 450 artists of the United States and over 58 countries represent Photo Fest, sustained global impact and research.

These clips are drawn from sources like nascar, Power Rangers, WWE and other media that he's consumed over the many years on this earth.

While his primary focus is on video and sound, his practice also encompasses sculpture, installation, photography and other interdisciplinary approaches.

His current body of work explores explores brand idolization, Southern culture, consumerism, and intersections between religion and NASCAR visual culture.

Through those explorations, Chris challenges the harmful normalities of Southern white culture.

His childhood exposure to NASCAR and the Baptist church drives a critical perspective on the sport and highlights the absurd and complex relationships between corporatism, Western consumerism tendencies and cultural values of the American South.

So Chris has a lot to say.

I love talking to Chris.

What a special guy.

I'm so glad he came through.

And by all means get to Photo Fest there in Houston this spring.

I'm going to try to get there myself.

And without further ado, let's get into this fantastic conversation I had today with the one and only Chris Wicker.

Chris Wicker, welcome to Not Real Art.

Thanks for having me.

I really appreciate being on here.

Oh man, I so appreciate you, you coming on.

And I mean, you know, you're, you're VIP because we don't often record on Saturdays.

We, we try to keep sacred weekends sacred for family and, and, and fun.

We try to, we try to work Monday through Friday 9 to 5, but ever once in a while a special VIP comes through and we accommodations and you are one of those because you've been busy as heck.

You're getting ready for Photo Fest, right?

Yeah.

Thanks once again.

Thank you for the opportunity.

I'm glad to be amongst the VIP group there.

It's great.

Yeah.

We've got a huge exhibition coming up, a photography exhibition.

I am the exhibitions manager for Photo Fest.

It's a feature photo based nonprofit here in Houston, Texas.

Shout out Houston.

Shout out Houston.

That really makes it a Houston wide event photography event.

That's incredible.

40 years, Ben.

I mean that's huge.

That's a wonderful accomplishment.

No, it's really, it's really great.

We've, I've obviously not been around for the entire time.

Oh, come on, man.

You, you, you, you, you look at least 80 with that red, with that orange hair, right?

Yeah, yeah, no, I haven't been there for the entire time.

3.

Okay.

And now with, with this upcoming one, it is a look back, like a 40 year look back.

So it's called Global Visions photo fest at 40, which is taking a sampling of each Biennial.

So that equals like over 450 artists represented from 58 different countries, over 600 individual pieces themselves.

I have the job of, and also amongst the other staff who are working really hard on this Biennial.

Co founder curated by our.

It.

It's being curated by co founder Wendy Watrous along with executive director Steven Evans and co curators Anique Du Kuk and Matty Murphy.

A lot of their work has really been supplemental to my work because I'm really into, I'm in the logistics of it, getting the work to Houston, making sure things are framed.

Anique Dukuk has also really, really taken a lion's share of that work.

But I've also been coordinating how things are supposed to look in terms of framing or when people need to be there to install or ordering certain material.

So it's, it's, it's, it's not something that we're, you know, just, just starting up now.

We, we've been working on it for, for quite some time.

Well, my gosh, I'm, you know, you do it, I'm guessing it's a biannual because you basically need two years to kind of recoup.

Well, first recuperate and then restart.

Right, right.

Yeah, they're, they're large, they're really large, large scale events.

And what's really great is that it's not just a certain area because that, you know, over 58 countries and over 450 artists represented.

That's just the portion that Photo Fest itself is putting on.

That's the central exhibition where we'll, you know, have that, that part of the show, but it's also a Houston wide event where we have galleries or institutions or even restaurants.

Whomever you know, would like to show photography, they are considered a participating space.

Space.

If they, you know, submit the right information and have their exhibition be, you know, majority photography or image based media, they're considered a participating space of the Photo Fest Biennial.

So it's more encompassing to Houston that way.

And you can like, you know, people come into town for it and say, okay, well, I want to see the central exhibition for sure from Fotofest, but then also I want to go to this gallery here and I can make it to this gallery and then this restaurant and then this institution, all under the umbrella of Photo Fest, showing photography.

And however they're they're choosing to tackle that is all up to them.

So it's really interesting to see, in addition to what we're doing, the Photo Fest main headquarters is doing, interested to see what other artists and what other exhibitions are born from.

From this, from this Photo Fest.

So it's really cool.

Yeah, it sounds like it.

So does Houston sort of think of this as sort of.

Cause here in LA we have what we call Art Week, and it's like a bunch of fairs going on at the same time.

Is that kind of a similar thing there in Houston?

Do you guys kind of brand it as like an art week with everything going on?

Maybe not an art week.

It's really.

So the Biennial, the central exhibition, opens on March 7th of this year and goes through May 10th.

So it's okay.

Wow.

A little over Art Spring, right?

Exactly.

Yeah.

A couple months there where we have the central exhibition.

At least those participating spaces that I was talking about earlier, they set the dates and times for those.

So sometimes, you know, they may be in the first part of the central exhibition or the middle or in the end, or, you know, as long as they're within the timeframe that we have the central exhibition.

But we have people come in for things like the Meeting Place, which is our portfolio review program, where artists are, they bring their portfolio and we get a lot of different reviewers, whether it's publishers, gallerists, museum professionals, to review their portfolio photography.

We get a lot of people obviously coming in for that, whether it be reviewers or, or participants.

So during that time, which is closest to the beginning of the Biennial, we do have a lot of people.

So it's kind of like an Art week, because those.

That all happens within the course of a week at least.

So we get a lot of people coming down for that purpose.

But the Biennial expands through at least two months this year, so there's a lot of opportunity for people to come and check it out and have their own little art week to see all the, all the different kinds of photography that we have up.

That's incredible.

So you must have many curators that are helping to curate the show.

Are you curating as well?

Talk a little bit about your specific scope of responsibilities.

Photo Fest.

Because you are exhibition manager, right?

Right, correct.

I'm not curating the exhibition.

The curators, like I mentioned earlier, Wendy Watrous, Stephen Evans, Anita Kuk and Matty Murphy, they're all really putting the exhibition together in a way that makes sense when it's on the wall, when you see it in the space.

But within my scope, like I was talking earlier, it's really speaking with these artists and making sure that we have the work here in Houston on time.

Making sure.

That's a big, that's a big part of my job.

Yeah, it's herding cats, my friend.

Speaking of cats on your lap, right?

Artists working with artists, herding cats.

Sometimes it is, It's a fun herd, I guess.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

We love our cats.

Right, Exactly.

So getting the work to Houston, if it needs to be framed, we work with framers or all frame things sometimes.

Or another big portion of my job is coordinating installation of the different things and where they need to go and how they're going to get there and when, as I mentioned earlier, ordering a lot of materials to make sure that thing happens.

We also have an auction that's associated with every Biennial, so it's making sure the auction work gets to our office and so that we have time to frame it and move.

It's a lot of logistics, a lot of behind the scenes to make sure that everything for the curators, for the curators is there so that when it is time to really put the work in, in terms of layout and, and what it will look like physically, it's already there for, for them to, to look at and to work with.

So a lot of, a lot of prep work.

A lot, A lot of prep work.

Oh, so, but ball, Ball.

Ballpark numbers.

I, I, I won't, they were, you know, we're not, we're, we're, we're not that anal retentive around here, but, or we try not to be, I guess, but.

Although my wife wishes I was bit more anal retentive.

But anyway, so roughly speaking, like, how many artists are going to be in the show?

And then what Percentage of those artists are kind of, I don't know, state stable artists that, that come back again and again versus new artists.

And is it, to what extent are, is it invitation only or can, is it like sort of pay to play?

Like people can like buy a booth and come in, you know, so talk a little bit about how artists are able to exhibit.

Yeah.

So really, from, from my, my time being there, biennials have been under some kind of theme that is then explored through artists that the curators are, or the curators feel are best tackling that theme.

Yes.

Whether it was dealing truly with like land and more like tangible physical objects in terms of geography or a digital landscape like some of the, some artists were tackling.

So it was really, and that's just two examples of, under the larger umbrella of critical geography that happens with these biennials.

With this one, it's a little bit different, I guess, because we're looking at a retrospective of, of all these years.

So it's a. I'm not going to speak say it's easier to pick and choose because it's definitely still a challenge.

Yeah.

But there's, you know, that history to go off of.

So usually that's where.

From what I know is like a theme and then artists are chosen based on that theme.

However, the participation part for other people who are looking to be a part of Photo Fest, that's where that participating space program comes in.

That is like an open call and a payment of a small fee to be included as a participating space.

That's all on the organizers.

That's all on them if they would choose to.

So that's how other organizations and other artists can be a part of what Photo Fest is.

Sadly, by the time of this recording, the deadline for that has passed.

However, to answer your previous question about the artists who are participating and if it's a recurring thing or a new burgeoning kind of talent for some artists.

So for this, this exhibition, there's over 450 artists present.

But the curatorial staff at Photo Fest does take measures to look at new talent who are in, especially within the Houston area, and work with those artists to bring them in conversation with other artists and other photographers who are, you know, across the globe and maybe working on similar themes or complementing practices.

And we try to have those, you know, those hometown heroes within our programs.

We're doing some New commissions this year for this exhibition with a couple Houston based artists, Andre Ramos Woodard and Siobhan Aja Morris, both fantastic photographers here in Houston.

We're also doing another commission from Lola Flash.

So we've got a lot of different work that's out there.

So I don't, I don't know if I have a percentage per se of artists.

I don't know if I can confidently give you that, but I hope that, I hope that answered your question.

Oh, yeah, no, and I mean, so can you ballpark or give me a percentage of like, how many international artists come through?

Is there, you know, a handful of international artists or is it pretty much all sort of local, regional or American based?

It's, it's.

There are a fair amount of international artists that I've worked with through Photo Fest or that I've seen come through.

Yeah, I mean, like I, like I mentioned earlier, you know, over 58 countries represented within, within this Biennial alone, but there's been so many different themes and so many different artists who have come through well with the history.

I mean, photo fest, you know, 40 years old, basically.

I mean, the, the, you know, people, people are probably, you know, banging on your door all the time.

You know, let me in, let me in.

Right.

You have a wonderful reputation after 40 years, I'm sure.

Yeah.

Are there, are there galleries that are present too?

Or is it just artists and you know, so, so are galleries coming in showing artists in there that they represent or is it sort of just singular artists, sort of on their own?

Independent artists, so to speak?

Yeah, it's, it's both honestly.

It's really, with that Participating Spaces program, it's really on the organizer.

If they have, you know, if they, if they're representing an artist and they're, they who's a photographer and they feel like, oh, this would be a great Photo Fest exhibition because, you know, like I was mentioning earlier with the meeting place, there's so many different people in town who are within the art world, whether it's curators, publishers, galleries, etc.

So they're coming to Houston to, to see some art and so to see some photography.

And the, the galleries there are perfect for, for those to see some, some new work that you may have not seen before or even reconnect with some, some work that you may have seen like online now.

You can see it in person.

So yeah, there, there's, it just depends on the space and what they want to do.

Forgive me if you mentioned this earlier.

You probably did, but what's this year's.

Theme, Global Visions photo fest at 40.

It's.

It's, you know, celebrating four decades of.

Of.

So it's Anna anniversary show on some level and.

Right, okay.

Global.

Right.

Yeah.

So, yeah, Global Visions were.

Yeah, just celebrating that 40 year, 40 year history there.

Excellent.

Well, look, man, I mean, you know, this is incredible part of your story, but that's really only one part of your story because let's not bury the lead here.

First and foremost, you're an artist.

I am.

And a very talented one.

I tell you.

I.

You're.

I was able to kind of get on your website and, and sort of poke around a little bit and my God, there were moments that I, I laughed out loud.

I mean, I.

And I mean that in a good way.

No, no, I know what you mean.

I know what you mean.

Is such an exploration in the absurdity of our culture in so many ways.

Yeah.

Well, first, I'm glad you were able to navigate the website a little bit.

It's fun.

I thought it was cool.

It's like gamified in some way.

Very intentional, obviously.

Super.

Great.

Yeah, that's great.

Yeah.

I am an artist.

I've been working mostly in video.

Well, so I have my, my bachelor's and master's, both in digital media, new media.

So a lot of video and sound work from, from me and I.

And I've always been working on that since, since school.

And.

But.

But now it's.

I'm.

I'm.

Well, not now, but I've always also been interested in other disciplines, like, you know, installation work or.

I started making art as a kid when I was drawing, like a lot of kids do.

And so that's something that I've always been interested in.

Not the best at it, but.

But it's still something.

Oh wait, you weren't a genius at.

At 5 and 6 and 7 years old?

No.

Well, ask my mom.

She'd probably say, yeah, oh, of course, moms.

Yes.

No, you're perfect.

It was perfect, right?

Yeah.

We love you, sweetie.

Yeah.

But yeah, no, I'm really interested in this, like, examination of media, Southern white culture and, and as you'd mentioned earlier, I'm from Texarkana and I was born and raised there.

So.

So really like examining those kind of areas through, through that lens or through what I know in, in order to like critique a lot of harmful normalities is what I, I have thought of them as.

Or things that are, you know, slipping past or that are taken in a way that's like, oh, this is Normal or I, I, I or everyone around me is, is saying this is normal.

It's like, no, this is not.

Like these are not ways in which people should conduct themselves or should, or things that people should say just out in the open or things like that.

And I think a really good pocket that I have been able to look at a lot and mostly because I know it and then I feel comfortable talking about it is like within the world of nascar, the, you know, highspeed driving sport where there, and, and this really started with a, a piece that I, I did a couple years ago, a two channel video called Boogity boogity boogity Amen.

It feels a very like, you know, fire and brimstone sort of delivery where he's thanking.

It's like a minute and a half or like a minute 12 or something like that.

Very short, but it's so charged in it.

He's thanking certain brands like Toyota and Ford and Yates and things like that.

And I grew up in the church and we didn't pray to certain brands or materialistic things.

Well, let's remind ourselves Jesus threw the merchants out of the church.

Right.

So there was that angle to it.

But then there's also this like, sort of like low brow aspect of it where he closes out the prayer with thanking the Lord for his smoking hot wife.

It's like verbatim, excuse me.

He then closes the prayer out by saying, you know, protect our drivers, et cetera, et cetera.

Boogity boogity boogity.

Amen.

Which for those who aren't initiated into NASCAR and what it is, there is a commentator, Darrell Waltrip, who would always begin each race with his comment or like as he was commenting on it saying boogity boogity boogity, let's go racing boys.

And that would like kind of green flag.

They'd start and it get, get the crowd going or at least the home crowd, right?

So it's just all like self referential, like thanking brands, mentioning your smoking hot wife on national television through a prayer that really was like this is such a, such a, a strange thing that exists to me and it feels unchecked.

In a way.

Because it's, I, I don't know, I feel like there are people who will like a, dismiss a NASCAR or Be like, oh, that's, that's just, you know, whatever on the tv, I'm just gonna flip through.

So for me, in that way, for, for that reason, it's like, oh, there are so many pieces and pockets that have gone uncheck, like culture that I'm examining, and that being one of them, because it's like, I don't know, I, I feel like it's a, it's not too far off from any hateful rhetoric that's being spewed out in, in today's world.

It just, it's just activating that space to then get it into or to.

It's just further removed from larger issues.

But it's still, it's still, that's the starting point for some people.

And it like stair steps into, you know, issues that we have today.

So really that's what a lot of my work has been in the past couple years, is really examining that within nascar, but then also in other forms and other ways.

Like, I've been scanning a lot of my, my denim and camouflage clothing that I own, because as much as I, you know, I do critique and try to talk about these things, I'm still a product of it.

I was born and raised in it.

So I'm, you know, wearing and working with.

I mean, I'm wearing a Dale Earnhardt shirt right now.

Right?

You're a fan, right?

It's.

There's, there's also that aspect of my work too.

I have like a fan perspective.

I mean, I've made a lot of professional wrestling artwork in the past because I'm a huge fan of it.

But it's also there, the spaces that I'm working within are areas to critique that too, because it's like, no, this is.

That you.

There's times where you need to point things out and say, no, this is really messed up, or this isn't quite right.

So, yeah, it's, it's been, it's been a fun, fun time working with these.

And, and there's always an element of humor.

I, I think in my work to, to bring it back to what you had initially said, I think.

And I had, I had a friend ask me about it once that was talking about.

He's like, you like, is humor something that is a conscious thing, decision or something along those lines within your work?

And I think it is, but it's not something that I'm like pointing to all the time of like saying, like, oh, humor's right here.

Like, look right here.

Joke.

Haha.

Because that's you know, that's not comedy.

That's not, that's not what you're supposed to do.

But it's, I know it's an important, like, vehicle to talk about certain topics.

Otherwise I think I'd go insane, like, like looking at all this, all this footage of NASCAR races or listening to that preacher over and over again while I was making that edit, or, like, trying to, like, stitch two videos together and make it work out.

I go insane if there wasn't a little comedy comedy to it all.

And it's already so funny inherently.

Well, I mean, I think, yeah.

I mean, as I guess the way I, you know, my words aren't yours, but it's sort of like the funny is there, the absurdity is there.

You're just, like, framing it, you know, or packaging it or repackaging it in a way that the, the, the, the, the absurdity, you know, you know, kind of comes through.

And maybe it strikes some people as really funny as it did me, and maybe, maybe not others, but I don't, I didn't get the sense that your intention is the funny.

Right.

Your intention is, it seems to me, a critique.

You know, you're critiquing your, your, your, your shining a light on something that I guess sometimes is really funny and absurd.

And, you know, there is so much about our culture that obviously is both.

And sometimes you have to laugh, otherwise you'd cry.

Right?

So it's like, you know, finding the humor.

It, when, when really maybe there's nothing funny about it.

I, you know, I, I happened to.

That, the boogity boogity boogity video happened to be the first one I clicked on.

I don't know why I clicked on it first, but I did.

And, you know, I lost my religion a long time ago.

I grew up in the church like you did.

But I have to say, I think I would go to that guy's church.

That guy was freaking hilarious.

And you know, for him to do what he did just, you know, that, that, that guy's a character for Good, Bad and indifferent.

But like, like, that's a church I would go to if, if, for the entertainment, if nothing else.

But by the way, for the record, I, I, I, I looked up his wife.

She's not that hot.

She's not that hot.

You know, I never, I never looked.

You got to.

Yeah, yeah.

You got to, you got to, you got to investigate these things.

No, no, no.

Joking aside, I just, I love that, that, that aspect of your work, of, you know, you're delving into all kinds of aspects of.

Of media.

I mean, you know, you.

There's that kind of series of things kind of exploring advertising and infomercials.

You know, all those CTAs that, you know, we're just inundated with, you know, I mean, that's.

That's really where I. I started doing that work in grad school, really looking at these kinds of commercials and.

And media from a certain time frame, because I'm.

I'm a child of.

Of that, you know, sitting in front of the television, watching all these different sorts of commercials or pieces of media, or playing, you know, in so many video games.

So I was sat in front of the television, and that was when I was making work.

It was a wealth of information for me to pull from.

And that's what a lot of my process is, too.

It's like sampling these different pieces of media, whether it be commercials, movies, television broadcasts, you know, you name it.

That's where I feel the most comfortable.

And it's.

It's like a.

It's a collaging process to me where I'm cutting pieces out from this video and stitching it onto here.

Or I may, like, make a mask out of something and, you know, stick it here, but it's still a piece of video in another video.

And so that's where I've always really felt at home.

And so the inundation that you had mentioned with some of my previous work, where it's all these, like, advertising pieces, like, I have this one piece that I think I just called 1-800- where I have so many, like, a stack of four 1-800-Numbers, but they're all stitches or, like, pieces from different 1, 800 commercials.

It's just all, like, kind of popping in and out of frame.

So you see that, like, oversaturation of this media or how many different 1,800 commercials there were back in the day and still are.

And so a lot of my work at that time was, like, dealing with this media consumption or this almost like brainwashing kind of effect that that kind of media had on kids, myself as a kid or adults or just whomever is watching, you know, you standing and staring at the television to create this relationship with the viewer so that they're also stuck in this sort of feedback loop.

And I making that work, it still led you make a piece, and it's a stepping stone to the next piece or do an experiment.

It's a stepping stone to the next direction of work.

And that's really actually where a Lot of the NASCAR stuff started.

I started making work around some NASCAR races where I was stretching video across a handful of screens and making it do some fun and wacky stuff.

So it's really all kind of made a pathway to what I'm doing now.

And it's been fun.

Now I'm sewing.

I don't know how that happened.

I'm doing textile stuff now.

Awesome.

Yeah, it's a weird path, but I've enjoyed it.

Well, from, from, you know, I don't know, new media, digital live action, video, whatever, to, to the, to the tangible, to the tactile, to the, to the fiber of it all.

That.

That's a, That's a.

What.

What's the saying?

You know, that's a kind of a hard right turn or a hard left turn.

Oh, sure.

How, How.

I mean, how did that happen for you?

Like, how did you, you know?

And are you, Are you, Are you.

Is this a just a time of an experimentation or are you really kind of, you know, going down that path in a, in a deep way and have you turned your back, so to speak, on the video and.

And more live action stuff?

Yeah.

No, I don't think so.

I. I think it's just been a natural progression, really.

Like the last year around this time also, when it snowed.

It hasn't snowed here yet, but it will.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's right.

You guys are on timestamp, the interview, storm watch right now.

Stay safe.

Yeah, thanks.

Yeah, about a year ago, we were snowed in and I had come off of a year of doing a lot of different applications for different open calls, proposals with like, a little.

Some success, but not a whole lot.

And I did a lot of writing in that year about my practice and what I was doing because I was unsure.

I didn't know what it was I was doing.

And so for proposals and open calls, you need to have that information down or at least a good summary.

So I did a lot of that in that year.

But then at that point I was like, okay, I think I'm just gonna make stuff and see where, where I end up because I had so many of these, like, thoughts or things that I wanted to do.

But then the, the creative process in your brain is like, oh, maybe not.

That seems a little silly.

Don't do it.

But then, then you just don't end up making anything.

And then it's just.

That's the worst thing you could ever do is not make my.

As an artist, you know, not make anything.

Yeah.

So I then started making some drawings.

I crushed up some, some beer cans and started drawing those from life and adding like a checkerboard pattern on the back of it.

I had no idea what that was about.

I started, like I was saying earlier, I started scanning my, my clothing and making digital collages out of that.

I didn't know what that was about.

I started making like actual fabric collages out of my clothing, like cutting it up and gluing and sewing it together.

And like, I didn't know what that was.

And it's now, strangely enough, cultivated in me sewing, like taking scrap pieces of denim and sewing hot dogs.

Like making little hot dogs and stuffing them so they, like, look legitimate.

I mean, I have a little hot dog here and it's.

I, I've made about 20 of them now and I, I just, I love them.

They're.

It's.

It's a weird, weird little thing and I, I don't know if I have the words for it right now or what I'm going to do right with them, but it's, it's.

It's a point in my practice where I'm, I'm having a lot of fun experimenting and just making stuff with, you know, there's been some writing here and there's.

I haven't just not written for the past, you know, year and a half.

It's still, that writing component is still there, but it's really been letting myself have fun in the studio and letting.

I mean, that's, that's an important part to any studio practice is to let play kind of enter into what you're doing.

And so, yeah, it's, I'm definitely not, you know, shying away from any video or any work that I am doing within the new media realm because I still think that's a big part of what I do.

And it's also, and I know, like, I can do certain things with, like to accompany these, these soft sculptures if need be.

But for right now, it's, it's a lot of, A lot of denim hot dogs.

Well, you know, bouncing around a little bit.

I mean, to the extent that, you know, you're password called, that has been some kind of critique around, you know, consumerism or, or capitalism or Southern culture or whatever, you know, and, and a lot of that was sort of TV centric, if you will.

Right.

And, you know, it seems like now, you know, Certainly, at least in my experience, if I'm scrolling on Instagram, I mean, Instagram anymore now is just an advertising channel.

Right.

It seems.

Right.

And every once in a while something interesting will pop up.

But, but there is a.

Just like the infomercial was like an architecture or an archetype that became like a very tried and true kind of template.

You know, the, dare I say, you know, Instagram marketing, Instagram advertising, there is a formula there too, now.

And it's just like, you know, you can sort of just, you, you see it, you know, it's like again and again and again and, you know, could be, you know, just the way the sound is produced.

I mean, it's just so, you know, that.

What is that, AMSR or asmr?

Yeah, yeah.

And, and, and, and so anyway, it feels like you.

Well, clearly you have so much fodder to play with, because capitalism, consumerism is, Is.

Is the cancer of our day.

Yeah, for sure.

One of them.

One of them.

For sure.

You know, one of them.

Right.

And I say that as a consumer that loves buying and a business person that wants to make money.

So, you know.

Sure, sure.

I, I mean, I, I like stuff.

I, I can't.

Can't lie.

Like, I like things.

So, yeah.

Big, Big stuff guy.

Big stuff guy.

Well, you know, so when you think about the stories that you are excited about telling in your work, and I know right now you're kind of exploring kind of a new medium, if you will, with the fabric and the sewing and the textiles and stuff, and maybe you don't know where it's going yet because you're just now kind of exploring.

But, you know, if you could project out, you know, imagine you're an old man.

You're.

You're 80 years old, you're smoking a stogie, and you're looking back on your life, what do you, what do you.

What would you, what could you imagine?

You would want your art, the stories that you told.

Like, like, if you're 80 years old and you're looking back, what do you hope you've accomplished?

What do you.

What stories do you hope to tell?

Oh, man, that's a, That's a really great question.

I think what I'd like to do is.

Oh, man, that's a. Wow.

What a large question.

I have to.

It's a big question.

You can say, I don't know.

I don't know.

It's a fair answer.

It's a big question.

I mean, I think a lot of my.

What I've done with some work in the past.

And also what I'm doing now is to really just highlight certain pockets of media that are.

I find interesting.

Like all the professional wrestling stuff that I used to make was something that, when I was in grad school, I had to help educate some people on, like what this is in wrestling, or, you know, to talk about what it, what it is that is happening within the ring or the storyline or whatever it was that I was working on at the time.

Right.

So I really would like just, if I am to, you know, look back and see all the stories that I, That I've told, it's really just highlighting those, Those pieces of media.

I'm sure I have a way better answer than just looking at stuff, but it's.

That's.

That's what's coming to me right, right now in the moment.

Well, no, no, but that's what I mean, I would, I would suggest and argue that the.

One of the fundamental functions of art and artists is to tell the truth and shine a light on truths that, you know, so many of us miss and obviously speak truth to power and shine a light on.

On.

On.

On our.

On ourselves.

I mean, art is a mirror, should be a mirror.

You know, somebody said to me, I remember I was talking to someone here in la and they were, you know, in the movie TV business, and I was saying something about, well, what.

What makes a good story?

What makes a good movie?

You.

And they said, well, a great story is both a window and a mirror.

And they said, you know, a great movie, great TV show, great story is a window into a world or a culture or a people or something that you don't know, something new.

But that window is also a mirror because there's something about that world, not people, that you can relate to and you see yourself in.

You know, and I think art is like that, generally.

Yeah, I think I agree for sure.

The, as we were talking or you're giving your part there, I echo that window kind of analogy there because I think it's also if, you know, if my art has the power to do this, and I think it does in certain contexts, make that bridge between two different worlds or two different, you know, two different viewers who, you know, have their assumptions coming in.

You know, if they were looking at my NASCAR work, they have their assumptions coming in, and then another viewer has their assumptions coming in, but then they see my work and they can understand what it is that I'm trying to do, what I'm trying to talk about, and they have appearing in or a bridge moment to.

To my world.

And if it relates to anything that they're doing within.

If they're an artist within their art practice or within their world, that's what I love about viewing art that is able to do that or that I have that kind of.

Or just like even one simple connection point of like, oh, okay, that's.

I can zero in on that and get.

Either get some meaning from that or any other kind of relationship or deepen my understanding of the piece.

I went to an artist talk recently here in Houston where.

At the Throughline Collective, which is an artist collective that I'm a part of here, where we have 22 members in this collective and we have exhibitions throughout the year with, you know, two member shows.

And this most recent show, Heather Johnson and Henry Sanchez, they had an artist talk where they were.

I just got a deeper appreciation of their, of their work because I, you know, I read some of their statements and know them obviously, but to hear them really go into more depth created that, like, bridge between myself and their worker.

I was able to really connect with what they're doing all the way down to the caption cards that they had, like every material listed on, like, the.

What they made the work out of.

So it's stuff like that that I'm like, man, I hope that my work can make that like, lasting, lasting impact there where that moment is created for sure.

Yeah.

And hopefully before you die.

Right?

That would be nice.

It's like, oh, why did, why did they have to die for their art to be appreciated?

Right?

But that's, you know, artists are generally speaking, just ahead of their time.

They're ahead of society, they're ahead of culture.

Right.

Like, I feel like artists, the, the blessing and curse of being an artist is that, you know, to the extent that you're trying to tell the truth about something and you're trying to shine the light on something, you know, the world may or may not be ready for that, you know, and, and.

But yet we have to do it right?

We have to forge ahead.

And.

Well, so, so, you know, I'm a, I'm from a blue collar family from the Midwest.

I was the first college educated kid family.

My dad was a.

Was an electrician.

You know, my mom, you know, worked in a medical office.

They were, you know, very devout Christian people.

And you know, in my world, you know, art wasn't a real job.

You know, you know, get a real job, Scott.

You know, being an artist isn't a real job.

So.

And I know my Family loved me, but I didn't always feel supported as an artist.

I mean, talk about your journey as an artist.

Do you, have you felt supported by your community, your family?

Has it been a struggle for you to, to, to, to be an artist in a, you know, presumably more conservative kind of culture?

Yeah, I, it is funny, like doing art and, and growing up in, in Texarkana or you know, at least areas like it, where it is, it is, you know, it can be a similar thing of like, oh, well, what's, what's the real job?

You know, what do you really want to do?

And, and, and I do remember having a conversation with my parents at dinner one night when I was getting ready to graduate undergraduate because they've, you know, graciously helped me out through a lot of different things and things that I want to do.

They've never been, you know, saying, no, you're not going to do that, and then, you know, point me in a different direction.

They've been supportive in that way.

But I do remember a conversation over dinner where I was talking about going to grad school and they just kind of were like, okay, you know, you're pay, you're paying for that one.

And so thankfully tcu, where I got my grad degree, has a full ride.

So if any, any art people looking for mfa, they've got a great program.

So.

But it's, it's been, it's been interesting to, to do that.

And also during my, my schooling, I, you know, like most people don't know what you're gonna do out of it unless you're, you know, like have like a internship at a, you know, company and you're, you know, in different business kind of things or things like that.

I didn't have that.

I didn't know what I was gonna do.

So it was there.

Is that, that aspect to it all as well?

However, I, man, I just really was.

And that's, that's the, the, the thing that I found out in grad school is that you've, man, you've really got to want it to do it.

You can't, you can't just sorta like half ass things or really like it's something that you have to want and do and try over and over and over and over and be okay with constant rejection and get to a point where you're making work.

So yeah, the support was there for sure, but it was always so like, like you had mentioned earlier of like, well, okay, the, the art thing is fine, but is there anything else on the horizon or.

But I mean, now I've worked in, you know, a couple nonprofits.

I've.

Before I was working at Photo Fest, I was, I was working in Texarkana as their, There's a, there's a regional arts center there, Shout out to the Texarkana Regional Arts and Humanities Council there.

I was their visual arts director there for a couple years.

So I was coordinating exhibitions, curating, doing the exhibitions there and programming associated with that.

So I had some time there to really, you know, reinforce that idea of like, okay, I'm working in the arts and I can make a living with, with my education and my, and also just stuff that I've learned from, from making work and making art.

There's, there's applicable skills there to like any kind of creative problem solving.

So it's led all the way to now, you know, I'm still working in the arts, still working in exhibition logistics and still, still making work.

And it, you know, working, working in the arts for these, these years or being in the arts for all these years can, or it was specifically working can sometimes, you know, deter you from, from, from not making work because you, you see so much in the day or you work with whatever exhibition you're working on and you come home and you're like, oh wait, I have to do my own stuff now.

Like, I'm so tired.

I'm so like beat from, from the day.

So it's, that's another challenge.

There's a whole, whole other set that I did not know would, would be, would be against me after, after school.

But that's just, you know, you roll with it and you make it.

You make the studio time, even if it's just like an hour looking through open calls, you know.

Well, right.

And that reminds me, I think it was Chuck Close who said, you know, inspiration is for amateur, right?

Like at the end of the day, right, you go to work, you know, you go to the studio, call it 9 to 5, Monday through Friday or Monday through Sunday, whatever it is.

But you go and you chop wood.

You, you, you know, you, you, you work, work, work, work, work through, through, through the fatigue, through the inner, you know, whether you're energized or tired or inspired or not, you do the work, right?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Because I mean like, like I mentioned earlier, otherwise, nothing, nothing's going to happen.

No one's, no one's going to make your, your work for you so well.

And breakthroughs can happen.

I mean, you know, like if you're not, you know, what do they say something about 99 of life is showing up?

I mean, if you, you know, if you show up and you're faithful and you have integrity and you know, and your, your heart is pure and you're in there doing it, I mean, great things can happen whether you, you know, planned on it or not.

And usually when it's when you don't plan on it.

Right, right, absolutely.

Yeah.

The, the, the times where you're just like, I, I have no, no absolute clue what I'm going to do in, in the studio that day.

I mean that's when some of the like best stuff or best, best techniques or decisions, that's when they happen.

So that's, it's important to like you said, just put in the work in.

So I just have to ask.

So you know, to the extent that your new media work over the years, so to speak, has been sort of pulling from call it existing source material.

Okay.

Forgive me if I didn't, you know, articulate that quite right.

But I think you get my point.

Do you see yourself getting into the development and production of proprietary original material that you dare I say, you know, cast and write and produce and shoot, you know, your, yourself and as a follow on question to that, as an artist and it's as a hot, this is a hot button issue these days.

But how do you, how are you feeling about the new tools of vis a vis AI?

You know, how are you feeling about that?

How might that help you in your process, if at all, you know, what are you thinking about, about where you go from here in terms of creating original material that you build and produce, you know, from the ground up, so to speak.

Yeah, no, that's a, that's a good, good question.

I think to answer your first part, I think there's definitely room and I have some, some plans for making you know, new media work that's you know, filmed by myself or, or I'm, I'm the, I don't know if I go as far as like hiring or you know, doing crews and things like that because I'm pretty, pretty low budget.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I, and then by the way.

That that's, that's a, some would say a good argument for things like AI.

Right.

Because it's like, well, you know, maybe there's opportunity to do more with, with little, you know, I don't know.

Yeah, I think, but I think the, the limitations that are put on you from whether it's budget or working with like a certain size of studio or not having a studio at all, or any of these limitations that put you into a box are some of the most important, like making times for you to really work within those parameters to see what you can do.

And because sometimes that comes out of the most or those kinds of situations make the most like beautiful kinds of crazy things.

I mean, I had to, with the digital collages that I was talking about made making or you know, scanning my, my camo and denim that was built out of one, I needed to do something in the studio.

Two, I wanted to make a 12 by 12 digital thing and that was my parameter there.

And also three, I needed to save some money.

So I downgraded my Adobe subscription to just Photoshop and then started to work within that.

And so those are the parameters that I think with, you know, to go back to what I was saying about working with a low budget can really make some beautiful stuff or some really interesting or engaging stuff.

It's also, it's also free to write.

So, you know, it's like, it's, it's good, it's, it's good in that way.

But I mean there's still doors open for me to make my own like live action stuff that I've shot and that I want to do that isn't using sampled media or maybe using parts of it.

But the live action is the main focus.

And I'm not the biggest proponent of using like any kind of AI or generated imagery.

However, I've seen it used in ways that are, you know, like this is a tool that we're using to supplement certain things.

But when it takes the place of that, that work or that, that need for higher budget material on a low budget production or something like that, that's where I get against it because it's just not.

And also there's just times where it's like, well, that doesn't look the, the best in the world.

The, the, I mean the, the example from more recent history that I can think of is the, the more recent Coca Cola Christmas commercial that was out.

That was just all.

Yeah, it was, it was a sight to behold.

By the way, the good fodder for some of your work, right?

Like, how do you sure, you know, critique this and, and shine a light on this, you know, this, this new aesthetic or this new, you know, I don't know, technology that, that, you know, there's so much hype around, you know, I mean, and that's the thing, right?

It's, I, I've, I've seen, there's, I have some really great friends who are working with AI technologies and in their work and they make some incredible, incredible stuff, but they're using it as that, that tool to, to create their work at the end of the day.

So that's, you know, great when that, that happens.

And I, and I love, love their, their work.

So there, there are implementations for it.

Sure.

And by the way, let me be clear.

I am not advocating for this.

No, I know, I know.

I just, yeah, no, I, I such a, we're, we're in this new weird.

No one knows like, you know, none of us knows where this is going, you know, really.

And I'm guessing like most things, there'll be some good and some bad and a bunch of in between, you know.

Right.

Yeah, there's, yeah.

Yes.

It's the best, I think the best thing I could say to that.

Yes.

Oh man.

Yeah.

Well, look, and I mean, here's the thing too.

And I, and I've had this conversation with other artists.

It's like, you know, call me naive, call me romantic, but I sort of feel like that, you know, this whole AI thing is going to put a premium on the handmade, the human made, the, the, the authenticity and the integrity that comes with, you know, with, with, with, with, with man made items, objects, whatever.

I mean, I'm sort of reminded of wabi sabi.

Right.

So in Japanese culture.

Not that I'm some expert, I'm not, but I do know that, you know, this, this thing called wabi sabi, which is that those things that are imperfect are perfect, you know, which is like that perfect ball that they, that they, you know, you know, mold ceramic and then they crack it, you know, Right.

Then, you know, like.

I know I, I, there is, you know, a handful of, you know, being an artist, you're friends with a lot of artists who make really incredible things.

And I'm happy to have so many things made by their hands in, in my house, whether it's a painting that they did or ceramic.

I have this lovely Lone Star beer can that my friend Lauren has made and has used that in a lot of her, her work, whether it's her paintings or, or ceramics.

And it just sits on the little console for my TV and it's, I love it so much.

It's like, it's, it was made by a human and it's, it's lovely.

So.

Yeah.

Great.

That's great.

Well, Chris, I'll tell You what, man, I am so grateful that you and I found time to sit down and honor the great work that you're doing and honor your story and your practice and obviously, photo festival.

You're a busy, busy man.

I hope you come.

You come back on.

You're welcome anytime.

But as we wrap up today, parting thoughts.

And then also, where can people find you?

Well, thank you exponentially for.

For having me today.

It's been.

It's been a pleasure.

I live.

I love talking about this.

It's right on me, too.

It's good parting words.

Make weird shit.

Just.

Just do it.

You'll.

You'll thank yourself later.

Make it.

Make it weird.

Or was it.

I had a professor one time that was like, if it's not working, make it.

Make multiples.

Make it red or make it big or something like that.

I heard somebody once, I thought.

Where I thought you might be going is I. I've heard, you know, other artists or teachers say, you know, if nothing else, make it ugly.

Sure.

Yeah.

Hey, I'm.

I can.

I can work with that, too.

Ugly is fun.

But, yeah, make weird shit.

And you can find me on Instagram, Chris M. Dot Wicker.

That is.

That's my handle there.

Okay.

Yeah.

Find me, follow me, send me a meme, do whatever.

And only Fans.

So can we find you on only fans?

Not.

Not today, not ever.

Sorry, sorry, sorry.

Bad joke.

It just, you know, seems to be that's.

That's where millions are made these days, which is a whole nother podcast.

Chris Wicker, it's an honor and a privilege, my friend.

If you ever find yourself in Los Angeles, please look us up.

You have a friend here, and I will do the same next time I find myself in the Houston area.

And it'd be great.

I mean, heck, I wish I could get out to photo fest.

That would be amazing.

Please do.

If you.

If you do, it's up for about two months from March 7 to May 10.

Well, hey, the truth of the matter is my mom's in McKinney, outside Dallas, which, of course, a long way from Houston.

But I have some business in Austin.

I mean, you know, you never know.

That's a day travel.

That's a day.

You know, it's.

Texas is such an amazing state.

It is so big and so vast and yet Alaska.

Fun fact.

Alaska is so big that if you divided Alaska in half, Texas would be the third largest state.

Wow.

That's.

I did not.

I guess I never realized how big Alaska was.

Fun fact.

Right?

Anyway, Huge.

Yeah.

Pretty.

Pretty big.

Well, my friend.

You be well.

Godspeed and have a great photo festival and we'll stay in touch.

Please.

Yeah, thanks Scott.

I appreciate it.

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