Karin Hurt and David Dye, the CEO and President, respectively, of Let’s Grow Leaders, dive into the findings of their book “Powerful Phrases For Dealing With Workplace Conflict”, including the REAL trends of workplace conflict and what’s driving it, the role of generational leadership styles, new world conflict vs old world conflicts, expectation violation, why silence is selfish, going with your G.O.A.T.s, scheduling the finish, having the courage to have the conversation, and contending with a "global staring contest with mortality".

So, you all do a lot together. That is my

understanding on your background that y'all really do a lot

together. But I'm not going to start there. Instead, what I'd

really love to start with is a little bit about your journey to

this book, powerful phrases for dealing with workplace conflict,

I would be curious to see if you really believe it's growing? Or

if it's something we're just more, you know, talking more

about?

Yeah. So it's interesting, we thought, hmm,

are we really the right people to write this book, you know,

because, you know, there's a, we're a husband and wife team,

having just, you know, gone through the stress of the

pandemic, are we always perfect at managing conflict ourselves?

Right. So that was our first thing. But we talk about how

important it is to have candid conversations. It's really, all

right, we're not perfect at it. But we really do it the deep is

heart of hearts believe that these conversations are so

critical. But let's really to your point, is conflict actually

getting worse? Why are people thinking this? So let's do some

research. And that led us to do the world workplace conflict and

collaboration of research to really ground the book. So we

understood what was going on? Is conflict actually getting worse?

And if it is, why, and what are some of the dynamics at play?

And then the so what so what do we need to be doing differently?

Now? What has changed? And what is the approach to these

conversations need to look like?

Well, if we dive into the research, the short answer

to that question about is it getting worse and so forth? You

know, the conflict is a part of human experience. And I think

that's one of the things is we set the table for talking about

workplace conflict, it's a part of being human, we're going to

have conflict, the question is, is it going to be destructive?

Or can it be constructive and productive and collaborative and

help us achieve new ideas and better workplaces and more

effective efficient teams and better service? So the key for

all of that is how we're going about it. So when we dive into

the research, one of the questions that we asked is, Are

you experiencing more or less workplace conflict in the last

few years? Because we were curious to find out has the

pandemic had that effect that kind of qualitatively feel in

the air, but isn't there and overall 5000 plus people, 46

different countries, very strong reporting 70% of folks report

that the level of conflict is the same or more than it was a

few years ago. And what's interesting is in that remaining

30%, who said, No, I'm experiencing less conflict, when

you then ask them why half of those folks say, Well, the

reason why is that they left their job, they found someplace

else, or they've left the onsite workplace, Alex, I'm working

remotely now. And I'm not interacting with human beings.

So I'm not having conflict. Well, okay, that feels maybe

less conflict feels better for that individual. But the

challenge there is all of the last constructive, productive

interaction that could be happening. When you look at all

of that, in total, there is an increase, and even the decrease

is not entirely positive.

I think that really speaks to the power of

deep dive with your research, not just taking answers at a

surface level, but pulling the layers back a little bit to say,

that's interesting.

You know, several things came up that were

interesting to us. So the first thing was that when people were

saying, Okay, there's less like, Okay, why and half of those

words, because somebody left, there's also some positive. So

when people are saying those who are reporting less conflict, at

work, there were people who were saying it's because we've got

better at talking about things because our leadership is doing

more, it was smaller, but there are some positive trends that to

build on. And that you can see, that should encourage all of us

that it's possible. And then one of the questions we asked was

about past big conflicts you've experienced, what are those, you

know, conflicts with bosses, conflicts with co workers,

conflicts with customers vendor? I mean, if there's a conflict

available, that just about all of them came out, there wasn't

any one big one. But then we followed up and said, Okay, if

you could go back and give yourself some advice, what would

you tell yourself, and this one was kind of astounding, just the

magnitude of the number 55% of folks said, I would go back and

tell myself, I need to be more patient, I need to remain calm.

And then after that, it was 21% saying, Hey, I recommend talk

about it, speak up, address it directly. And so it was

interesting that three quarters 76% of people there total

advice, be patient, remain calm and talk about it.

I also think that the extent to which people cited

mental health challenges and the stress associated with the

pandemic, you know, I think there's a lot of language of

well, that, you know, the pandemic is behind us, but it is

left it has left an imprint on people that I think that we

might be under estimating and 21% said that that is the source

of the conflict is that you know, this, this feeling of

unease of mental health of the lingering stress. Part of that

is you we all chose our bubble, right? So they're created this

us and them even amongst people that we cared about. And, you

know, we there was like, I'm afraid of other people, all of

that and living that way for so long, I think created some sense

of anxiety that is lingering. And coupled on that it was also

the last couple of years, it wasn't just a pandemic, it was

also worldwide social unrest, we've had wars, you know, and

this is a global survey. So this is in the context of a lot of

external conflict that people are dealing with, then you've

got social media, the way social media is working, you know,

you're getting fed to things that are going to fire you up,

or just living in this edge. So when you're, you know, coworker

decides to, you know, heat up the leftover fish in the

microwave, and it's smelling up the entire office, you're like,

you know, you're on edge already. And then it's like,

boom.

One of the phenomenons I think of our

generation is this emphasis on leadership, the boomers really

were the leadership was Do what I say, Yes, suck it up. Nobody

cared if there was job satisfaction, you know, you had

bills to pay. So you did it. And at the end of, you know, 30

years, you got to go watch in, you know, you went to go do

whatever you did for five years before you died. But we have

really seen this development of a desire for different

leadership. And I want to really talk specifically about that as

it relates to conflict, what have you seen change, and then

I'd love for you to address what you see coming to leap through

conflict.

So let's start with our research. When we asked

people who are reporting more conflict at work for their major

reasons, in addition to the mental health and anxiety,

pandemic related stress, the two number one responses were

overwhelmed burnout, understaffing, all of those

kinds of issues. And then poor management practices. And so

when you dive into that again, and pull back the curtain and

dive underneath that, you find that there's a massive amount of

change happening in the modern workplace. I don't think this is

news to anybody, right. But let's take a look at what those

things are. So first, you've got the whole move to remote hybrid

back again, not back again, all different varieties of that,

then you've got this global staring contest with mortality.

That was the pandemic that made a lot of people reevaluate their

values, how they wanted to live, what they wanted, from their

work, what they didn't want opportunities for more pay

elsewhere. So you had the great resignation as people went

looking elsewhere, or I don't like those values I'm leaving,

and the quiet quitting that went along, you know, so you've got

all of these things happening. And then you've got, as you were

saying, Stephanie, you've got a workforce today that is

demanding more from leadership more meaning and purpose,

that's, that's a higher value to them, I need meaning and purpose

in my work, the emotional connection to my co workers and

to my manager, and to feel like they care about me as a human

being, while at the same time, there is increasing complexity

in the workplace with increasing multi timezone multi geography

teams, you've got more matrix organizations, more complex

structures, all of that then breeds more, more isolation

takes a lot more intentionality, all of those factors add up to

an increased demand on managers and leaders to lead effectively.

And the skill set has not caught up with the reality yet. So all

of that combines to create what you know, one of the what we

call conflict cocktails. And so leaders have a lot of work to

do. And that's our job is, and we love helping them do that

with all the practice skills that are available. But that is

also the reality that they're confronting. And then then

there's the impact on teams.

What's really I find really interesting is the number

of times a day that my phone rings, where someone says, Hey,

you know, what we need, we need to teach our leaders how to lead

remote teams. And so my first question always is, have they

had any leadership training at all before? And so often, it's

no what we haven't done any, how do you connect with your team as

a human being? It's harder in a remote environment. But Jay, if

you've got those skills, right, how do you get real clarity

about what success looks like and set clear expectations? How

do you have a difficult accountability conversation? If

somebody doesn't do right, all of those things? We're seeing a

lot of folks that have never even been trained in some of

those fundamental areas, man Gope. And I think there are is a

very big focus now on some areas that were not focused on before

creating psychological safety. Right? That is one of the most

important things you can't not you cannot spend a minute on

LinkedIn without seeing somebody talking about the importance of

creating deep psychological safety, diversity, equity and

inclusion and belonging. Right. These are conversations that

have really Thank goodness, it finally come to the forefront,

right? So not only do you need to get great results, you also

need to create psychological safety, you need to create a

culture of belonging. And it's just feeling like a lot of

things. And if you haven't been trained to do that, or if you

haven't been trained, what do you do when you've got a new, a

new person entering the workforce? Who, by the way, went

to college, in their, in their high school bedroom, right? And

that's a remote, then they got on boarded to this new job, and

they never actually got have been in person, how do you

create a real connection to your mission, vision and values in a

context like that? Have you? Have we trained people how to do

that? Because that's tough stuff.

Yeah, I've just thinking of a conversation we

had with a senior leader earlier this week, somebody who's very

values based, has a high degree of loyalty and trust from her

existing team. And she was describing the challenges that

she and her team have been having with incoming workforce,

who are genuinely having conversations like What do you

mean, I have to be on time and not with no irony. Like, that's

not inclusive? That's not and they're misusing the language

right there. That's they're completely misusing the

language. But it's been more than once that she's had these

conversations, you scratch your head saying, are you seeing this

elsewhere? It's not that it's always that but the social

dynamics, common human dialogue to solve baseline problems, then

you've got others who are, you know, we're thinking of another

client of ours who has some leaders who struggle with, I

really want to do all these things, and they are

passionately hurt committed to doing them. And across their

team, there is one hour a day where they can potentially get

everybody together at the same time online. And that one hour

includes some people being at 9pm, some people doing a 7am.

Right, that kind of thing. And so, you know, those are

realities.

When I first think of conflict, I think of

things like the fish in the microwave, you know, tale as old

as time. But what I really hear you speaking to is, we're kind

of in a new world, has this new world created this new conflict?

I think there are certainly buckets of new

conflict. And there they rhyme with the old conflict, though.

All right. So, you know, it's, do we have clarity, we're seeing

a lot of conflict around unclear expectations, a lot of

conversation, conflict conversations come from, I

expected you to do this. And you did that. Right. So think about

and almost any conflict that you have, it's usually an

expectation violation of some sort. So if I think that it is

polite to have your cameras on so that we can bond as a team,

and you think, you know, is going from Zoom meeting to zoom

meeting is giving me zoom fatigue, and I am exhausted, and

I just can't even but then so you show up and don't turn your

camera on? And I'm like, do you not respect me? Or is this

conversation not important enough for you to turn your

camera on? Now, the problem there is that we don't have a

norm for in meetings like this, we do that and that we have

talked about in advance. So it's, it's those kinds of

things.

I think, with the addition of the remote, and this

is I mean, so many workplaces, even if you are an in person

team, we're still doing so much with remote communication. And

whether that's a Slack channel, or zoom, or Microsoft Teams, or

any of those things, you know, the way our brains work, it's

very easy to reduce somebody to a set of pixels on a screen to

reduce them to their job title. That's harder to do when you're

seeing that person every day. And you might get a glimpse of

their you know what they did this weekend or that kind of

thing. But it takes a lot more intentional effort to read three

dimensionalized people, and it's so easy to we go two dimensional

on a flat screen, and then even less than that as glowing pixels

and a chat thread and that sort of thing. So it's possible, it

can be done, but it takes a lot more effort. So when you look at

the dimensions of conflict or collaboration, so the things

that improve conflict when they're there or cause it to be

more destructive when they're not the number one is

connection. That's the first thing is do we see Do we know

each other as human beings? Then there's clarity, Karen was

talking about clarity, do we have a shared understanding of

what success looks like? Next is curiosity. Are we truly

interested in one another's perspectives? And then finally,

is commitment and that is do we have a shared agreement moving

forward, of what actions we're going to take and how that

works? Those dimensions if we can address those make

everything better?

So I'm just gonna throw this out there when

you guys are deciding on what to do for dinner together. Do you

go through these steps? Hey, I'd like to connect...

You kid but it's funny because people often ask

like, hey, well, I'm interested in what it must be like at your

house. We do use the tools that I'm actually thinking of a

conversation we had Two weeks ago, we were having a conflict

about something I don't remember the topic anymore about Kara

does. I was like, Alright, I actually went through the four

dimensions. And let's talk through these and see if we're

aware. Do we have some more work to do? Absolutely.

Yeah, just you know, some other things that we really

in the book, we really talk about giving people the words to

have these conversations. And, you know, once one of these

phrases works very well, in relationships, in any kind of

relationship that you ever have, I really care about you. And I

am sure that we can can't find an outcome that will be good

here. You know, I really care about you, I really care about

this team, I really care about our work that we're doing, I

really care about our mission, right? If you can come from a

place of I really care about this. And the other day, was

talking someone, a manager through conflict that he was

really, really, really fired up. And I said, You know what,

because I knew the other person, I said, there's one thing I know

for sure, you both really care about the same outcome, you're

both trying to accomplish the exact same thing. Now you have

differences of opinion about how you're going to approach it. But

I would start there like grounded in that go say, I know

you want this, I want the exact same thing.

That's perfect becasue I think dealing with

conflict is going to take time and practice, so forth and so

on. But it is a skill.

Absolutely, absolutely. And getting into

those specific conversations, the reality for all of us is

we'll all be more effective and have a better enjoyment of life,

if we can and workplaces in particular, and do more

effective work, if we can navigate it effectively. So

understanding that where the discomfort comes from, we're

social creatures, I don't want to be disliked, I want to be on

the outs from my my colleagues, like we need that it's part of

our human needs. The fear comes, I'm going to damage the

relationship, I'm going to this is going to stink as a result,

that fear becomes from a lack of skill. So if we can, as you

said, practice and get good at those skills, it's going to help

us in order to practice in order to try I sometimes have to

overcome that fear of what's going to happen, that

discomfort. And so there's a conversation before we have a

conversation with anybody else. There's a conversation we have

to have with ourselves. One of the powerful phrases to use with

yourself is what happens if I don't say anything? Because

nothing's going to change if nothing changes. And so what

happens if I don't say anything? What's at risk? If I stay

silent? What are my values here? What are the things that are

that could happen are not going to happen next to really ask

ourselves and take an honest look at that. Because sometimes

maybe staying silent, might be the right call. Because really,

there's nearly nothing at stake here. And it's just me,

whatever. Most of the time, though, when there's something

that's irritating us, I'm thinking of a specific example,

when I was a newer employee, our CEO wanted to do a marketing

project that I really felt lacked integrity. And I stood on

it for nights spent, sleepless Lee going, how could he do that

does Where's his integrity. And after four nights that I finally

got desperate enough that I spoke up, and I said, Hey, look,

Mr. CEO, I can't be a part of this lacks integrity. I don't

want to do this. It's something along those lines. And he said,

Oh, well, David, I do see it differently. I don't think it

lacks integrity the way that you think it does. And I don't want

you to violate your integrity. What do you think we could do

here? Oh, well, what if we did this one tweak? He's like, Yeah,

we can do that. Problem solved. In this context. Silence is

selfish. If I don't say something, I am depriving the

other person of the opportunity to make a different choice to

take a different path to engage with me on that content. So I've

got to say something.

Yeah. So David shared our four dimensions and

productive conflict, the four C's, well, we have what we call

our goats, our greatest of all time, powerful phrases, right.

So we've got a couple of goats for every one of those C's. And

so I think, you know, though, I shared the one around, you know,

creating connection I really care about you care about this

project. Another really good connection. One is, Tell me

more, I have set myself up as an active listener in deep

connection. And then another connection one is what we call a

reflect to connect, which is where you are reflecting back

the emotion. It sounds like you're really frustrated with

this decision. Now, you're not saying they should be frustrated

with this decision. You're not saying you you are thinking it's

a bad decision. It's just saying it sounds like you're really

frustrated with this decision. Tell me more. So those are some

examples of connection. One's a really good clarity. One is what

would a successful outcome look like for you? Because now I'm

curious because that's a really important one because if we're

not trying to achieve the same thing, Then we're never going to

resolve the conflict. So it's better to know that as fast as

you can.

Yeah, I think that there's some nuance on that one,

too, that's important is it's what would a successful outcome?

What would it do for you? Because sometimes in a lot of

workplace conflict, we're like, well, I need the data. Well, I

need to do this other thing. And we get into we get locked into

these conflicts about well, this is what success looks like, for

me. It's like, Well, okay, but what will that do for you? What

is it that you're after? What's that going to do for you? Well,

I need the data in order to do this. Okay, well, let's see if

we can build a solution that can satisfy that and satisfy where I

am, we need to do all of these things. And I need to stay

healthy in the process, like, okay, how can we do both of

those, until we know what those outcomes people are thinking

about will do for them? It's really hard to craft a shared

solution. But once we do have that clarity, then we can move

forward with something that tries to satisfy both.

And it sounds like, again, correct me if I'm

wrong, though, this clarity, while it can be very helpful for

the leader, it also sounds like it would be helpful for the

person as well, to what I immediately think of, is this a

problem that actually needs to be solved? Or do I just need to

listen?

Yeah. And then, you know, so that really leads to

the whole series of curiosity questions, you know, if you can

show up really curious about possibilities, are there other

alternative ways to think about this? And really curious about

what things are looking like from somebody else's point of

view? And so a good goat is, I'm curious what this looks like,

from your perspective, you know, it's a very neutral, easy to ask

question, what do you suggest we do next? Because that that is a

really good one, too, because a lot of times, particularly if

you've got a lot of people who are chronically complaining, and

they're coming to you and jumping, solve this problem,

solve this problem, right. So what what do you suggest we do?

Well, gosh, I don't know. It's not an easy solution. So this

curiosity questions are some, I think, the most important ones.

And other curiosity, one that I love is, what can I

do to support you right now? And Stephanie, that gets it that

notion you were asking about earlier in terms of is this

somebody I need to listen and hear and give them the chance to

get that off their chest and let them know they're not alone? And

that they've been felt? And they've been heard? Or is their

solution oriented? And so if we ask, hey, what can I do to

support you right now? We'll find out because it's not always

easy to know, when somebody is coming with their issue.

And again, to your point, what do you suggest?

What an empowering thing to say? Like, hey, I don't need to be

the source of all the answers. And that's actually not what

makes for a good leader. I mean, I think good leadership is about

developing others and helping them but then at the same time,

it's empowering. But if they're just a chronic, complainer it

also nip that in the bud as well. Okay, bring me home, give

me a goat for commitment.

David, you want to do that one?

Sure, so when we talk about commitment, let's just get

the concept out there is that a lot of times, we will have a

Groundhog's Day situation where we may have a great conflict

conversation, and we really discuss some solutions, and we

leave with great intentions. But we haven't made a shared

agreement. And as a result, everything ends up happening

again. And now we're back where we were. So one of our favorite

goats for commitment is, you know, we can align on an action,

what's one action we can both agree to is the next step. So

maybe it's to get that first. But then one of my favorites, we

call this scheduling the finish. And it's let's schedule some

time to talk about this again, and see how our solution has

worked. So let's get it on the calendar right now. We put it on

our calendars right now let's schedule the finish. And how

about Friday, next week at 3pm. Let's get together for 15

minutes and see how it's working. And what that does is

it increases the likelihood that we're going to follow through on

the commitment that we made to each other. And it gives us an

opportunity to deal with any exceptions that came up, oh,

well, then somebody was out sick and it didn't happen, or there

was this other business priority that came along. And we you

know, all hands on deck, we responded to that. We didn't

keep our commitment. Well, if we don't have a chance to talk

about it, trust erodes. And we're back where we were only

now it's worse, because we didn't follow through on what we

said. So if we've scheduled that time, where we're going to

follow up and follow through, it gives us the opportunity to say

hey, you know, What, did you do the thing that I didn't think?

No, we didn't. All right. Let's acknowledge that. And let's

recommit and then schedule another one out so that we can

maintain our commitment to each other. And that builds trust and

it builds the collaboration.

Yeah, there's one of the commitment ones that I find

really useful in a really heated if we're at two separate sides

of a conflict as specific as you can be. So okay, what is one

action we can both agree on? It pulls in a baby step to give us

something that we can align on because we mean not be able to

solve the whole thing. But let's start.

Is there anything else that you guys want

to make sure we talk about in our time together?

You know, I think the most important thing is that

as we asked people about how they felt, right, like, like

when we when we you've had a conflict? Yeah. Had you spoke

up? How did you feel after the words that come are full of I

felt relieved, I felt hopeful. I, you know, I felt better. So

that is our hope for you is that you are the listener is that

have the courage to have the conversation because there is

peace and optimism on the other side of that.

And I would add, oh, first two things. So first, I

think we've shared what eight or 10 phrases maybe and if you're

listening this book, powerful phrases for dealing with

workplace conflict, what to say next to de stress the workday,

build collaboration, calm, difficult customers, there are

over 300 phrases in that book that will walk you through all

different kinds of conflict that you might have at work with

coworkers, the final thought I would want to leave you with and

I'm going to come back to a story, a conversation that I had

with a manager in his 30s. And this was about six, seven weeks

ago, he had a situation at work was feeling some conflict needed

to have a conversation hadn't had the conversation. So we

walked through some powerful phrases he could use to start

the conversation, we scheduled the finish, let me know let's

call him Joe. So Joe, let me know when you're gonna have the

conversation, and I want to circle back and hear how it

went. So you got the follow through. He texted me three days

later. And the text said, David, I'm going to get a tattoo. It's

going to say, just have the conversation. I said, So Joe, I

take it that the conversation went well. He said it did. He

said, I didn't get everything I wanted, you know, and they saw

some things differently. And I learned some of their

perspective. But my goodness, why didn't I do this so much

sooner. And we're all capable of that when we have the right

words to use. So just want to encourage listeners, have the

conversation, get it started open the door and give people a

chance.

I love it. You know, fear is what keeps people

from having these conversations. And a big way to get over fear

is to have the tools to get through it. And these are the

tools arm yourself with the appropriate tools so that the

fear just dissolves because you know, you're starting in the

right way. So thank you both so much. Thank you all

tremendously. I really appreciate you being here and

available.

We are so grateful for you. We're big fans of the

important work in the show and thank you for all you do to

encourage courage and to grow leaders.

Our pleasure.