Shownotes
Tony Hoffer is a 7 time Grammy nominated record producer and mixing engineer. Tony’s work includes The Kooks’ “Naive”, M83’s “Midnight City”, Beck’s “Midnight Vultures”, Fitz & the Tantrum’s “More the Just a Dream”, and Phoenix “Alphabetical.”
In this episode, you'll learn about:
- Making Beck “Midnight Vultures” and how it changed Tony’s career
- Tony’s approach to working with bands in the studio
- How Tony crafts a unique sonic identity for every project
- Why vocals get recorded early in the process
- Adding “grit” during the recording and mixing process
- Balancing the artist’s vision with label expectations (or not)
- The challenge of setting out to make something new
- Setting daily targets to maintain momentum in the studio
- Using guitar pedals to add character to anything
- Reaching out to Artists
Connect with Tony
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Credits:
Guest: Tony Hoffer
Host: Travis Ference
Editor: Stephen Boyd
Theme Music: inter.ference
Transcripts
I basically brought a crate of records down to the studio. I played
Speaker:something for Beck off a Bony M record. I grabbed a little
Speaker:loop of that, like, a little bit of that. It's kind of a little drum
Speaker:thing. Looped it up, and then we just started building on
Speaker:that. That's seven time Grammy nominator, producer, and mixer Tony Hoffer. Tony's
Speaker:discography is full of records that have likely been sonic and musical
Speaker:influences for so many of us. We're talking about stuff like Phoenix,
Speaker:Alphabetical, M 83, hurry up, we're dreaming kooks inside in,
Speaker:inside out, and Beck, midnight Vultures. As somebody that works with bands live
Speaker:in the studio, Tony knows how to keep momentum going. And then. So I'm
Speaker:pushing everybody. I'm pushing myself. I'm pushing
Speaker:just the whole team, the artists, everyone, to just like, let's keep
Speaker:moving, let's keep the momentum. And I think by having that target. Tony tells us
Speaker:how he's always on the artist side and always working to bring
Speaker:their vision to life. And I'm asking myself, well, what is the sonic identity of
Speaker:this thing? We're. If you can't answer that, then we're not there. And part of
Speaker:facilitating that vision is giving every idea a chance and exploring
Speaker:every option. The only way to do that, if. There'S certain sounds that you like,
Speaker:you need to know how to either create them quickly or find where they are.
Speaker:If you've saved them or if it's a preset or whatever it is, you just
Speaker:need to know how to get to stuff quickly. So this one's a masterclass in
Speaker:everything from production to distortion. So stick around for my interview with Tony
Speaker:Hoffer.
Speaker:I was listening to a lot of your catalog this morning, kind of revisiting a
Speaker:lot of records that I listen to so much. So I know you've had a
Speaker:huge influence on so many producers and musicians out there,
Speaker:but I'm curious to know, is there a project or an album that you
Speaker:did that you think shaped you the most or helped you get on the path
Speaker:that you are on now? A project that I did, I would
Speaker:say, probably would have been back midnight vultures,
Speaker:because that was sort of the first big milestone for
Speaker:me, the first time I'd worked with a well
Speaker:known artist, and the first project that came
Speaker:out on a major label, and I knew people would be, some
Speaker:people would hopefully hear the record, but I would say that project in particular,
Speaker:that album in particular, was kind of a catalyst
Speaker:for how I ended up doing a lot of things, even to this day, just
Speaker:in terms of production, what takes to choose
Speaker:how far to go in terms of getting things
Speaker:precise or not precise or leaving things a little
Speaker:loose, whatever. That established a lot of things for
Speaker:me. Yeah, it was amazing working with Beck and everybody that
Speaker:was around all the musicians at that time. So, yeah,
Speaker:I would say probably that album, but the reality is they're all.
Speaker:I've been doing this for a number of years now, but even records that
Speaker:I'm currently doing, I'm still finding new ways of doing things
Speaker:as a producer and as a mixer and engineer.
Speaker:The hunt is always on to find a new
Speaker:way of presenting a synth or a guitar
Speaker:tone or whatever, just to kind of bring something new
Speaker:to the space. I'm always
Speaker:finding inspiration with pretty much every project that I do because the
Speaker:reality is, whatever I did on the last project that I did,
Speaker:it's guaranteed not to work on this
Speaker:next project. Totally. So you're constantly having to
Speaker:find new things, but a lot of the framework, I'd say,
Speaker:would have come from that first big project that I did with Beck. Yeah,
Speaker:that record. I was just listening to that one the most this morning because I
Speaker:haven't listened to it in a while, and I was going to ask you about
Speaker:it later. The way the mix is and the way you guys put it together
Speaker:is so cool. That first track is so mono, but the things that
Speaker:are on the sides really catch you. I just think there's a lot of really
Speaker:deliberate choices that are really dope. Was that something that you guys were talking about?
Speaker:Were you making that record like, hey, we're going to do this. Let's fucking go
Speaker:for it. Let's leave safe on the edge
Speaker:and make what we think is cool. It was definitely, let's
Speaker:make something that we think is cool. Yeah, we wanted to
Speaker:make something. The spirit of that project was, we're
Speaker:going to go on an adventure making something that hasn't been made before.
Speaker:For Beck, I mean, I think pretty much all of his albums are that really.
Speaker:Yeah. But this one in particular, we were going pretty deep because we weren't working
Speaker:in a traditional studio. We were working in a studio in
Speaker:Beck's house. So we had a lot of freedom and a lot of time. Maybe
Speaker:too much time, actually. But it definitely allowed us to
Speaker:experiment and try different iterations of
Speaker:songs, and it allowed us to be very creative and to
Speaker:make mistakes and try things. Some things would work, some
Speaker:things not, but it was good. When you say.
Speaker:Because I hear people say stuff like this all the time, you set out to
Speaker:make something that hadn't been made before. What's a conversation like that with an
Speaker:artist when you're about to go into pre production and everybody wants
Speaker:to just kind of change the game, how do you even approach that? It feels
Speaker:so daunting just to say, we're going to do this. It's hard to
Speaker:say we're going to make something that's never been made before, and this is how
Speaker:we're going to do it. You kind of have to just start throwing things at
Speaker:the wall, which is pretty much what we did. How I started with that project,
Speaker:I basically brought a crate of records down to the studio, and then
Speaker:I played something for Beck off a bony M record,
Speaker:and it sounded cool, so I grabbed a little loop of that, like a little
Speaker:bit of that. It's kind of a little drum thing, looped it up, and then
Speaker:we just started building on that. And I think just by nature
Speaker:of the choices that we made, not trying to do things that
Speaker:we've heard before, I think true north was that let's just make
Speaker:something we haven't heard before. So when it came time to doing a guitar part
Speaker:or whatever, let's find a tone that we haven't
Speaker:really heard before. Yeah. Or something that's
Speaker:played, in a way, an approach that we haven't heard before
Speaker:with this type of tone, with juxtapose with this type of
Speaker:rhythm, drumbeat and loop or whatever. So
Speaker:I think it was kind of a bit by bit sort of record,
Speaker:and one thing at a time and whatever
Speaker:the last thing was that we put on there, we knew that we wanted to
Speaker:do something else that would keep it veering in these different
Speaker:directions, and then hopefully we would end up in the destination
Speaker:that was the right place to be. Yeah, totally. It's
Speaker:interesting because this opening little bit kind of segues so many of the questions that
Speaker:I had. Let's go, sonic identity for a minute. I think people that are familiar
Speaker:with your work could probably pick out a record that you did out of a
Speaker:lineup. Like you kind of have a thing. Is that kind of from this
Speaker:commitment of just doing what you like, or do you think it's shaped over
Speaker:time where you kind of have grabbed things that work
Speaker:and don't work and catalog them all? The sonic
Speaker:identity, for me is such an important thing
Speaker:that I'm just always trying to find what? And I'm asking
Speaker:myself, well, what is the sonic identity of this thing we're doing? What is
Speaker:it? And if it's. If I can't answer that, then we're not there. We've
Speaker:got to keep going. And I think a lot of that growing up, I listened
Speaker:to a lot of music, and I still do, and have a real good
Speaker:knowledge of music. Maybe I could be a music
Speaker:historian for certain things. I'm quite knowledgeable,
Speaker:but it's been really helpful for me over the years to
Speaker:be able to just have this catalog in my
Speaker:head of different reverbs that were cool in
Speaker:different instances of songs that I liked. Or
Speaker:somehow a certain song evoked a
Speaker:certain feeling or an energy or an atmosphere or whatever,
Speaker:and that could be cool on this song to give it some kind
Speaker:of a twist or a new thing. I feel like I have a lot of
Speaker:tools buried in my head, just from the
Speaker:years as a kid, as a teenager, as a young adult,
Speaker:as an adult, grown up, whatever, listening to all kinds of
Speaker:music and having a good understanding of how it was made and
Speaker:created. So, yeah, I hope that answers the
Speaker:question. Yeah, no, it totally does. Some people do this and
Speaker:some people don't sit down with the artists, like, mid session and just play them
Speaker:something, see how they react. Like, hey, what do you think of this thing from
Speaker:the 70s that I love? Do you pull anything out of this you want to
Speaker:put in here? For sure, yeah, I'll reference things all the time, because
Speaker:sometimes it's hard to say, well, I'd like to do this. It's going to be
Speaker:kind of this meets that. It seems very arbitrary, and it probably
Speaker:doesn't make sense because it probably hasn't been done before. Well, there's two
Speaker:things. One way would be to show the references. It'd be kind of like this.
Speaker:The chorus of this, the way the reverb or whatever it is,
Speaker:with snare of that. Or if we can work
Speaker:fast. I try to work fast. So let's just do it
Speaker:quickly, and then we can talk about it. Which is probably the best
Speaker:way. But, yeah, it could be so hard. The way that everybody describes music,
Speaker:it's like what you say and what the lead singer of the
Speaker:band translates that as. Could be totally unrelated. That's why
Speaker:being able to do it quick is probably definitely the way to go. Yeah.
Speaker:Because then you see, like, okay, it works, or it doesn't work. Do you
Speaker:feel like we're kind of getting into production already? Do you feel like every
Speaker:idea should get chased in the studio? If the bass player
Speaker:has an idea and it's doable quick, does everybody get a shot to
Speaker:kind of try something? I mean, I try to do that, especially if they're good
Speaker:ideas. Obviously, I'm coming with a lot of ideas, but I
Speaker:definitely do want the artists to have input and to
Speaker:bring their ideas, because often a lot of their ideas are really good,
Speaker:and even the wackier ones have many
Speaker:times been amazing. Yeah. So I definitely
Speaker:welcome ideas from everyone. Everyone that's part
Speaker:of the group that I'm working with. Whether we get to all of them,
Speaker:there might be some where you can kind of tell
Speaker:it's probably not the right thing. It's probably not the
Speaker:right thing, and it probably would take a long time to
Speaker:try, and so you'll have to kind of whittle them
Speaker:down to the best. And we'd have a discussion on the
Speaker:consensus of what everyone thinks. All right, we've got three ideas, a, b, and
Speaker:c. We can do one. What's everyone feeling? And everyone's
Speaker:feeling b. So that's what we're going to spend the next couple of hours doing,
Speaker:then focusing on b. Yeah. What I wanted to talk about
Speaker:mostly, or a fair bit with you is producing bands.
Speaker:We're basically there. Right. What's your approach to kind of taking,
Speaker:like, a really great live band that everybody
Speaker:loves and then translating that into a record that
Speaker:is a new experience or a different experience for the listener? I mean, obviously the
Speaker:record is going to be more produced, but how do you make sure that you
Speaker:retain what everybody loved when they signed that band or why everybody
Speaker:went to the show and you put that into a record? When I'm working with
Speaker:an artist, I'm always looking for the strengths. So if that's one of
Speaker:the strengths, the live show, let's say, and clearly everyone's liking
Speaker:the live show, then I would definitely factor that into
Speaker:how I'm doing things in the studio. So that
Speaker:may determine whether we use a click or not. Like, if they're not using
Speaker:a click live, I would assess what's happening live. I
Speaker:would try to get a good understanding of what's happening live. I would try to
Speaker:see them in person if they were on tour, if it's possible to do
Speaker:that. Sometimes it's not because they're not playing, but at the very least, I would
Speaker:do some kind of rehearsal with them in a rehearsal room, and I would be
Speaker:there right in front of them watching them live. But, yeah, I would try
Speaker:to distill down what is the
Speaker:thing that makes this so great. And I would definitely try to keep all of
Speaker:those great points in by the time we get to the studio.
Speaker:So that if that is a thing and if it's a big strength where
Speaker:there's sort of a cool attitude or that the songs have a bit more of
Speaker:an edge, or there's sort of a freeness to the
Speaker:songs that maybe they wouldn't have
Speaker:if they're chained to a click or things
Speaker:are too clean in the studio or whatever. I'd
Speaker:be very mindful of that to make sure that that doesn't happen where things
Speaker:are boring, they're not too clean, or they're too clean,
Speaker:and then it's a big surprise for everybody, so I wouldn't want that to happen.
Speaker:Yeah. Do you ever find that when you
Speaker:identify what you think that special piece of an artist is, do you find that
Speaker:generally the artist is unaware of that? I feel like some people are
Speaker:like, when they're doing their own thing, they're unaware of what is actually connecting
Speaker:with the audience. Do you find that to be the
Speaker:case? Yeah, I would say most of the time, but then
Speaker:sometimes there's artists that I work with that definitely have. They're very
Speaker:intuitive as to what they're tapped in. Yeah.
Speaker:People need and want from them as an artist, but, yeah. Does it
Speaker:matter whether you're in touch with that? I don't know if it matters.
Speaker:On one hand, if I were an artist, I suppose it'd be
Speaker:helpful if you really were dialed in with your fans. It probably would be a
Speaker:good thing, I would say, because then you would. Know it's probably true.
Speaker:But then, at the same time, you have to make the music.
Speaker:You have to be evolving. You can't
Speaker:be thinking, oh, well, my fans aren't going to like this because then
Speaker:I feel like that'd be a little restrictive. But I think just having a good
Speaker:understanding of what your fans want, as long as it's not
Speaker:limiting what you do. I like to talk about managing
Speaker:expectations and how you can use expectations to
Speaker:fulfill somebody or totally blow their mind when they're like, they
Speaker:expect this and you're like, no, that's not what we're doing today. I think that's
Speaker:a pretty powerful tool when it comes to mixing or producing or anything.
Speaker:Yeah. So along the lines of managing expectations,
Speaker:how do you handle? Because we both know making a record can take weeks and
Speaker:weeks and weeks. Personalities in the room, momentum
Speaker:slowdowns, maybe creativity slumps on week
Speaker:four. What are some of the things that you do during a month
Speaker:long session that kind of just keeps the band excited,
Speaker:fresh, moving forward? Well,
Speaker:I have targets every day, and I usually figure those targets
Speaker:out. There'll be kind of an overall target where I need to get this done
Speaker:by x date. Then there'll be daily
Speaker:targets where the target is to get the
Speaker:majority of this song tracked, the music part of it
Speaker:tracked, maybe even get a vocal. And that's
Speaker:a target that I'll set in a way for myself.
Speaker:So I may or may not discuss that target with the
Speaker:artist, but it causes me to push
Speaker:to where we stay on target to get what we
Speaker:need to get done by 10:00 or whatever. By the
Speaker:end of the day, usually we hit the target or go beyond
Speaker:it. We'll get the majority of the song done, if not the whole song, and
Speaker:get it in a good place where then we can hear it the next morning
Speaker:and have some good perspective to have a fresh listen, and
Speaker:then we can do some additional bits to it and then
Speaker:get on to another one and keep going. And I think by doing that, by
Speaker:having clear targets, and usually I'll establish maybe the night
Speaker:before or the morning of, I might mention something like, hey, I'd like to dig
Speaker:into this song, song x. I'd like to dig into that
Speaker:and get pretty deep with it. The morning
Speaker:before, I'll wake up, have breakfast, I'll be listening to things.
Speaker:I'll make some sort of decision, like, okay, I feel like we can
Speaker:get everything, all instruments up to blah, blah, blah, done,
Speaker:and then that'll be my target. And then, so I'm pushing everybody. I'm pushing
Speaker:myself. I'm pushing just the whole team, the artists,
Speaker:everyone, to just like, let's keep moving. Let's keep the momentum. And I think by
Speaker:having that target, it causes us to not have
Speaker:slumps and get too fixated
Speaker:on minutiae that is really
Speaker:insignificant to the target. Some things we can come
Speaker:back to. Yeah, there's some things where if I feel like
Speaker:we're getting bogged down and it's possible to come back to it
Speaker:later on, almost just like, let's just step out of that, focus our
Speaker:attention on something else, and then get back moving,
Speaker:and then we can revisit that later in the day or the next day, and
Speaker:it'd be a much quicker cycle to do that. Very
Speaker:cool. So is that a pretty average pace for you, songish a
Speaker:day, when you're working? I guess it depends on the artist. Yeah, it depends on
Speaker:the artist, but, yeah, I would say song a day for the
Speaker:main stuff, and then usually the kind of
Speaker:fun, tweaky stuff, the overdub stuff, that could take
Speaker:a half day. Again, it depends on what we're talking about
Speaker:here. Like, the type of music we're doing, can the artists work
Speaker:at a pace like that? Some can, some not. And that's fine,
Speaker:too sometimes for the more electronic leaning
Speaker:projects that I do. Sometimes a song a day is not realistic because
Speaker:there's so much sound design and just
Speaker:building kind of the sonic world of the thing and so it
Speaker:takes a bit longer. Yeah, but if it's a band
Speaker:and everyone's focused, yeah, we can get a lot done in a
Speaker:day. A lot of people, they'll start a record and
Speaker:they'll do. This week we're doing drums. But I feel like the way that you're
Speaker:talking, the going the song by song approach, I feel like that probably allows
Speaker:each song to be the character of that song. Is that part of the reason
Speaker:you do it so that like, hey, the drums have to be like this for
Speaker:this song? Because I feel like if you just did drums to a couple of
Speaker:demo guitars and some clicks and stuff like that, you might have a
Speaker:cohesiveness that is wrong. You know what I mean? Yeah,
Speaker:I've done that before because I've had to, for whatever reason, we were in
Speaker:situations where we had to hire, bring in a session drummer and we
Speaker:only had this person for two days, so I don't love that.
Speaker:But 99% of what I do, yeah, I'm doing it song by
Speaker:song so I can set everything up to be
Speaker:based around that song and it's custom
Speaker:for that song. I don't like doing a week of drums and then a week
Speaker:of bass and then a week of guitars for two weeks and synths for
Speaker:a week. Whatever. I like doing it song by
Speaker:song. I like getting vocals done sooner than
Speaker:later. The vocals are obviously a very important piece of the
Speaker:puzzle. So I like getting vocals done on the
Speaker:earlier side of whatever time we have. Just so I know we've got some
Speaker:extra time in case we need to go back and do another
Speaker:pass at something or drop in on some bits. Maybe
Speaker:some lyrics change after living with it, I don't know, but I like
Speaker:having a little bit of time. I don't like saving vocals to the very end.
Speaker:Well, it keeps everybody engaged, too. It's like if you're just doing drums for a
Speaker:week, you know, the bass player is just not coming in for a week and
Speaker:then he's going to have a problem with some fill.
Speaker:You mentioned sound design and electronic records taking a little bit
Speaker:longer. Do you have any tips for producers on just knowing
Speaker:your sample library, knowing your record collection, how you organize
Speaker:things, anything to help, like a young kid just work faster when he's
Speaker:shaping tones. Yeah, I mean, to work fast, you definitely need to
Speaker:know your tools and you've got to put the time
Speaker:in. I've put a lot of time in on my own. Before I
Speaker:started doing big projects that people know about. I spent
Speaker:years of doing lots of unknown stuff and
Speaker:my own stuff. And with that, learning my favorite
Speaker:samples, or being able to work fast with the
Speaker:computer, or be able to mic something quickly, or if
Speaker:something's wrong with the sound of it, I know how to adjust the mic
Speaker:quickly. I just know what to do and I can just do it. Be a
Speaker:to b, get back and keep things moving. So,
Speaker:yeah, you just have to know your tools. If it's like you
Speaker:mentioned, electronic artists or producer. Yeah,
Speaker:you definitely need to know what synths or if there's
Speaker:certain sounds that you like, you need to know how to either create them quickly
Speaker:or find where they are. If you've saved them or if it's a preset or
Speaker:whatever it is. You just need to know how to get to stuff quickly. I
Speaker:don't know if you know Damien Taylor, producer mixer? I don't think
Speaker:so, no. He always encourages people to go through their sample library and delete the
Speaker:stuff you don't like. And that was, like, mind blowing to me because you're like,
Speaker:I've got 80 gigs of drums and you use the same four kicks. And
Speaker:he's like, why do you have 7000 kicks when you use 50 of them? Just
Speaker:delete them. But I can't delete them. They're my
Speaker:samples that I don't use. You know what I mean?
Speaker:Yeah. I don't know what I've got, but I've got
Speaker:a lot that I've accumulated over the years. I feel like I don't think I
Speaker:could do that because I work on so many different types of things
Speaker:and I'mixing so many different styles and genres
Speaker:that I know where everything is for the most part. I can move
Speaker:fast, but there are some things where I've only used
Speaker:once or twice over 24 years, but
Speaker:I'm holding that in there just in case something comes
Speaker:up a couple of years from now and I need that thing
Speaker:and, you know, it'll be there and I don't know
Speaker:if I could do that. Before I deleted them, I definitely backed them
Speaker:up. So they're all on another hard drive.
Speaker:At the end of a session, you talk about doing so many,
Speaker:making new sounds and creating things that haven't been heard before. At the end of
Speaker:a project. Do you do any saving pro tools? Track presets or saving
Speaker:presets or grabbing drum samples? Do you do any
Speaker:archival? Like, these are dope. I want to save these and know I can get
Speaker:back to them. No, I never just move on. Yeah.
Speaker:Just, like, onto the next thing. I just don't
Speaker:want, like, what I said earlier, I just feel like whatever I did
Speaker:on this project that I'm just finished. I don't feel
Speaker:that that is going to work on the next project that I have. Yeah.
Speaker:And I like having things be specific to each project.
Speaker:Now, there might be certain ways and techniques, certain things that I
Speaker:do from project to project that are the same, like the way things are
Speaker:miced or organized or whatever, but in
Speaker:terms of sounds, I try to
Speaker:create the sonic identity for each project. Like, have that, be
Speaker:unique, a unique thing, and not get into assembly
Speaker:line, cookie cutter type stuff. I'm not a fan of
Speaker:presets. Yeah, well, I
Speaker:mean, obviously you're going to think this because you're not a fan of presets, because
Speaker:when you came up, you were using analog synths and you were building sounds. Do
Speaker:you think the fact that now you can download Arturia and just load
Speaker:up every Juno preset you can think of, do you think kids should not
Speaker:use the presets and learn how to make a Juno sound? I think they should
Speaker:learn how to make a juno sound so you can get the sound that's right
Speaker:for the thing that you're trying to do and just have a good understanding of
Speaker:how that instrument works. To be very
Speaker:causative over that and not be flipping through presets. Now,
Speaker:with that said, sometimes there's some cool presets, sometimes I'll
Speaker:flip through presets and I'll find something that's actually perfect. It's maybe a
Speaker:very complex sound that would have taken me a while to program on something,
Speaker:like some soft synth or whatever, but for the most part, I'm really just trying
Speaker:to find something unique for each part or each project.
Speaker:So if I did find a preset that I use, I probably wouldn't use it
Speaker:for straight up something else. Yeah. Sometimes I feel like
Speaker:all the technology that we have today is so enabling for
Speaker:young producers to learn music and be making something cool, but then at the same
Speaker:time, it also enables you to skip some of that
Speaker:learning that you and I have gone through. Maybe this is just
Speaker:me almost being 40, maybe this is why I feel this way, but I just
Speaker:feel like you can kind of skip some of these basic
Speaker:understanding of how to build these things. And you can get away
Speaker:with it, but you can still be successful. So I don't know if it's a
Speaker:good thing or a bad thing. I don't know. Do you have an opinion? Whatever
Speaker:works. If it causes them to make better music, then cool. Then
Speaker:whatever ways of doing any one thing. There's so many ways of
Speaker:getting a cool synth sound. You can do it by
Speaker:scratch and reset everything. And dial it in your
Speaker:way. Yeah, it's cool for some people. Other people, they'll find
Speaker:a preset, and they're very good at that. And they're good at matching that
Speaker:preset with the part, with the song. And it's great, and
Speaker:it's cool. And I've worked with many artists that that's how they work,
Speaker:and it's great. So, yeah, it's just, for
Speaker:me, if we were in a room together, and it's like, okay, let's get a
Speaker:synth sound. I would probably just walk over to the synth. And just start dialing
Speaker:something in for me. That's quicker than to just be flipping through
Speaker:the presets. I don't know. That's just me. Do you have any weird
Speaker:tips? Like, the most unorthodox shit that you did on accident or
Speaker:you thought wouldn't work. That has become like. Well, I guess you're always changing
Speaker:things. But is there anything super weird. That you can share with people that you
Speaker:like? I mean, I love a lot of late eighty s and
Speaker:early 90s digital multi effects processors.
Speaker:I feel like they're so
Speaker:shitty that they're really good. Yeah, they
Speaker:have an interesting profile. They're
Speaker:just different than. Let's say it's a reverb or
Speaker:whatever. They're just different than a nicer
Speaker:reverb. And they're definitely different than a plug in
Speaker:reverb. It's just a different thing. So there's a few
Speaker:that I really love. And I use quite a bit. And they're
Speaker:cheap. Nice. What else? I use lots of
Speaker:pedals for various things.
Speaker:I'll record a bunch of stuff, and I'll use pedals.
Speaker:Yeah. But then I'll also run things through pedals to go even
Speaker:further. Cool. And have a bit more control. Like, once it's been
Speaker:recorded, I can be more aggressive with what I'm doing.
Speaker:But, yeah, there's a bunch of kind of junkie pedals that I
Speaker:love. That are just cheap junkie pedals that just do
Speaker:something cool. There's certain gear. And I learned this early
Speaker:on when I was an intern at a studio years ago. But I
Speaker:would basically run drums or whatever through
Speaker:outboard gear. And I would distort the input of the gear. So
Speaker:there's certain gear that I just like, analog and
Speaker:digital. I just like how it distorts. And I'll use that for certain things.
Speaker:And it's different than distorting with decapitator or some
Speaker:plugin, some distortion plugin. It's a very different thing.
Speaker:Oh, I was going to ask you about distortion and saturation, actually. Because when I
Speaker:think of a lot of the records that I've listened to that you've
Speaker:made, your distortion and saturation stuff is so good. It's
Speaker:not brittle and harsh the way it can be. Is that anything you're doing
Speaker:after the fact? Can you elaborate on that? Or is it really just
Speaker:understanding what distorts how. And then choosing the
Speaker:right thing for the right thing? Thank you. I'm glad you noticed. Because I
Speaker:put a lot of thought into the grit, basically.
Speaker:Yeah. If it's something that I'm producing. Yeah.
Speaker:I call it grit versus distortion. Because when I think of distortion,
Speaker:I think of more of, like, a saturated sound. And I don't
Speaker:necessarily want that. I don't want it to be
Speaker:distorted or oversaturated and that sort of thing.
Speaker:That wouldn't be quite right. I want it to have a grit
Speaker:to it. Kind of like an early stones record. Like the
Speaker:early Motown records, where things are kind of breaking.
Speaker:But it's very satisfying. Yeah. So, yeah, a lot of
Speaker:that. If it's something that I'm producing, then, yeah, we're getting
Speaker:that. We're trying to get that however we can. So, again, it's by
Speaker:overloading a preamp. Where it's enough to. Where it's kind
Speaker:of breaking up. Or it's adding a little bit of hair to the
Speaker:thing, to the sound. And then I may go even further. Then when I go
Speaker:to mix it, I might go even further with additional
Speaker:grit. And it's usually not a lot that I'm adding.
Speaker:It's just I'm adding little bits on a lot of things. And so it
Speaker:adds up in a certain way. And I don't like to use the
Speaker:same grit on everything. I think that's also
Speaker:important. Yeah. Because they all have different
Speaker:colors. Some are going to emphasize the low
Speaker:end. Some are going to be better on the mid. Some are better on the
Speaker:top. So just not using the same
Speaker:plugin. If it's a plugin, not using that same thing on everything. And if it's
Speaker:outboard, not using that same pedal or piece of gear for
Speaker:each time I'm trying to overload something. Yeah, you definitely
Speaker:understand the character of these things. When you were. You probably don't do this now,
Speaker:but years ago, if time allowed. Did you do a lot
Speaker:of comparison when you were mixing? Like, what's this sound like compared to that?
Speaker:Okay, I like the way that this pushes the low mids. This isn't working here.
Speaker:Or have you just accumulated it over the decades of making
Speaker:records? How do you mean? Comparison to what? I guess
Speaker:taken a second to shoot out. Like, before choosing to. We'll use plugins,
Speaker:for example, because it's easier. So before just throwing decapitator on, did you
Speaker:ever try retro color next to decapitator next to Saturn
Speaker:and be like, okay, Saturn is what I want to use because of this? Yeah,
Speaker:for sure. I mean, before the plugins. Yeah, we would shoot
Speaker:things out just to see. We try maybe between one
Speaker:and three options. We would know that one of these will be cool.
Speaker:They might even all be a little similar, but there's going to be something that's
Speaker:going to pop out of the speakers. It'll tell us. So, yeah, we
Speaker:would definitely shoot it out. And I still do that. If I'm mixing something, let's
Speaker:say maybe something that I didn't produce, something that someone else produced,
Speaker:but they sent to me to mix, and I'm trying to get
Speaker:that grit, which maybe they didn't do that when they were capturing
Speaker:everything. I'm trying to find different ways to creep that grit in
Speaker:there to not have things sound too clean. I'll
Speaker:try different ways of doing that because sometimes the
Speaker:plugin, decapitator, whatever it is, Saturn's
Speaker:great. Whatever it is, it may be great on that last
Speaker:project, but it's not working the same way on the same instrument
Speaker:for this next project. I don't know why that is, but it is what it
Speaker:is. Sometimes you have to just do a
Speaker:quick check just to make sure you can't just blindly
Speaker:do the thing. Like, well, I always do this on my drums. There are
Speaker:things that I do use a lot for drums or bass or
Speaker:whatever, but I am checking, and I may not use
Speaker:the thing that I always use. There are occasions where it's not
Speaker:right, and so I swap out for something else. But,
Speaker:yeah, you have to constantly check that. Yeah. A hard tangent
Speaker:here. Before we close. I was meant to ask you this earlier. I feel like
Speaker:you've made a lot of records that are both commercially successful
Speaker:and highly respected. By musicians in the music community,
Speaker:which we both know is not always easy to do.
Speaker:What happens when you're straddling that line of what the
Speaker:artist wants, staying true to that, versus bringing in some of what the
Speaker:label might expect or some of what the radio is looking for? Do you have
Speaker:to live in that world at all or do you just make a record and
Speaker:it resonates and it works? I mean, I'm always on the artist side. I feel
Speaker:like that's the place to be, helping
Speaker:them create the vision they have
Speaker:for the songs. Me coming in and amplifying that
Speaker:vision, that's what I like to do sometimes. Yes,
Speaker:labels, if they're signed to a label, then, yeah, it's
Speaker:possible the label will have some input on that. For the
Speaker:most part, the majority of the projects that I've worked on, everyone has
Speaker:been on the same page. It's been very rare. I'd have to
Speaker:really think back as to a time where the
Speaker:artist is doing one thing and the label is talking about
Speaker:some other thing, and there's usually a
Speaker:parody. The label signed them for a reason, so
Speaker:they have an understanding. Now, sometimes when you get into the third
Speaker:or fourth or 6th or 7th album, there can be a thing
Speaker:where now there's some expectations. The label is
Speaker:expecting a single or a certain thing of a certain way. Yes. They'd
Speaker:probably love to have whatever the first big single was that did really well. They
Speaker:would love a version. Two of that, of course. But usually that's not going to
Speaker:happen because the artist doesn't want to do that. They've
Speaker:already done that. And I'm like, with the
Speaker:artist, why don't we make a single that's really good,
Speaker:but that's something new and has all the strengths that the artist is
Speaker:known for and encompasses all of the other cool stuff that
Speaker:everyone likes and that the artist likes to do. And I feel like that's how
Speaker:you get the good stuff. But chasing something,
Speaker:it's just never worked for me. Chasing the charts or chasing
Speaker:some trend in music that is really popular now. The music
Speaker:that we're making now is going to come out maybe in six months, and that
Speaker:is going to be done. That trend will be definitely done.
Speaker:You're like a sitting duck. Like, no one's going to be interested
Speaker:in this thing. And frankly, I think the
Speaker:artist needs to stand in their own
Speaker:area away from other artists, not be a copycat or
Speaker:not sound anything like other artists. Yeah.
Speaker:For the most part, the artists that I love that are big
Speaker:to me, they're all very unique. They have a very unique
Speaker:presentation. All aspects, from the sound, their
Speaker:look, the packaging, everything. It's all very
Speaker:unique. And I think that's where it's at. Trying to chase
Speaker:something that is already successful, it's very difficult.
Speaker:I agree. I have a lot of experience doing songwriting sessions for years
Speaker:and years and years. And the times that everybody came
Speaker:in with the intention of writing something that sounded like something
Speaker:else, it was always an average day. And when people
Speaker:just came in and just didn't have to write for an artist, and they
Speaker:just pulled up a piano or whatever and just wrote, those were
Speaker:always the better songs and probably the ones that got cut and that other stack
Speaker:of shit that was, like, trying to sound like whatever's hot right now, it just
Speaker:stays on the hard drive. Yeah. So I completely agree with you.
Speaker:Okay, so before we hit our closing questions, I've got reports
Speaker:from an outside source of a remote controlled airplane that may have
Speaker:been taking off of Sunset sound. And I was told to ask if you knew
Speaker:anything about this. Yeah, I may know of something about that,
Speaker:actually. Now, there's actually. Are we talking Sunset
Speaker:sound or sound factory? It could be either. The
Speaker:roofs of both of those studios have been used for
Speaker:Runway access. Yeah.
Speaker:Okay. All right. I know so many people that work with you.
Speaker:I know that you're really good at keeping the vibe in the room going and
Speaker:breaking it up. But then, like you said earlier, you've got your targets. How
Speaker:do you hit your targets and still make sure everybody's having a great time? You
Speaker:know what it is? No. I mean, when people are productive and
Speaker:when they're producing. I don't mean producing as a record producer, but producing
Speaker:a product. Producing the product of being
Speaker:a guitar take coming up with a synth part. That would be the product
Speaker:of that moment when people are making things,
Speaker:creating stuff, they feel good, and they
Speaker:kind of keep momentum going. And morale is good.
Speaker:When it becomes a slog and you're just spending
Speaker:so much time in the minutiae of one
Speaker:little sound of whatever going down a rabbit hole
Speaker:and not really having much movement with it, people
Speaker:get tired and unmotivated. So
Speaker:I think, for me, what's worked for me is just keeping things
Speaker:moving and just
Speaker:having agility, moving fast, not getting bogged down on things.
Speaker:And then you've got time to go fly airplanes off the roof of a
Speaker:studio. Perfect. Tony, this has been great.
Speaker:I've got two questions I ask everybody at the. You know, we kind of touched
Speaker:on a little bit of this as we went but has there ever been a
Speaker:time in your career that you chose to redefine what success
Speaker:meant for you? I mean, I'm always trying to
Speaker:have songs and artists do
Speaker:well. And I think early on, like, early,
Speaker:early on, success for me was being able to work
Speaker:in a recording studio, like, to make music in a recording
Speaker:studio. So if there were a day that I could
Speaker:actually go into a studio and work with an artist in a
Speaker:studio for one day, that was a huge
Speaker:success for me, even. It was for, like, 1 hour.
Speaker:Yeah. And then obviously that changed. So then when
Speaker:you do that enough, then you want to do a full album in a
Speaker:studio, and that was a big thing. So, yeah, it's evolved over the
Speaker:years. It's always evolving. But I think, really, the main thing for me is I
Speaker:like it when people hear music that I work on. It is success for me
Speaker:when the artist is doing well. It's success for me when
Speaker:randomly I'm out somewhere at a restaurant or whatever, and
Speaker:then a song comes on or it's in a movie that I didn't know
Speaker:it was in. I like that. It definitely
Speaker:feels good. And again, it means that people like the
Speaker:artist. They like the music that we did, and, yeah, that
Speaker:defines success. Yeah, I think that's huge. When you're
Speaker:a kid, you listen to a record and song will have such an impact. And
Speaker:I think, for me, I resonate with that a lot. That's one of the things
Speaker:that really gets me going, is when something does well, and you're
Speaker:like, some kid out here, out there is being affected by
Speaker:this song the way that I was affected by that song 25 years ago or
Speaker:whatever. And I think that's huge. I think that's why so many people just keep
Speaker:doing this, just to give people that thing that they had when they were a
Speaker:kid. Yeah, there was an artist that I worked with
Speaker:where a fan had reached out to the artist. The album had just
Speaker:come out, and the fan's younger
Speaker:brother was, I think, deaf or hard of hearing,
Speaker:and her brother had some kind of treatment done
Speaker:to his ears to where he was going to be able to hear. And the
Speaker:first music that he was going to hear was going to be a song off
Speaker:this album. And they told somehow this information got to the
Speaker:manager, and then it got to the band. And I just thought, man,
Speaker:that is a. Is that the first thing that you want
Speaker:to hear? Maybe, I don't know, the Beatles or prince. I don't
Speaker:know. It's cool. But I thought it's just really cool. That
Speaker:obviously this music hit this girl in such a way to where she
Speaker:felt her brother needed to hear it. And I thought that was really cool. And,
Speaker:yeah, when people tattoo the lyrics on their
Speaker:bodies, personally, I don't think that's a smart idea,
Speaker:but the point is, somehow something about this song
Speaker:caused some emotion in that
Speaker:fan, and it caused them to react and to do that
Speaker:where that song really became a part of their lives. And I love that.
Speaker:Yeah, I think it's huge. That's a good story. I'm glad I didn't break
Speaker:into tears or anything now that this is a video show as well. All right,
Speaker:so the last question is, what is your current biggest goal that you can share
Speaker:with people? What's the next smallest step you're going to take to go towards that
Speaker:goal? Biggest goal? I've got a lot of
Speaker:really big goals, and some of them, they're not necessarily
Speaker:music related, but I would say the biggest
Speaker:goal. There's certain artists that I would love to work with.
Speaker:That would be a goal. And the step is I'm trying
Speaker:to connect with those artists by any means necessary.
Speaker:So either through a connection I have or through
Speaker:my manager or some other way, but it's cool.
Speaker:Goals are a big thing for me, just even in the day
Speaker:to day of making records. Like, I'm setting daily targets and
Speaker:goals. It's just how I operate. It makes it
Speaker:easier for me to get through a day, basically, and to have something to show
Speaker:for that day, but so I'm always very goal
Speaker:oriented, and I try to write them down once or
Speaker:twice a day, in the morning and at night. I don't always have the
Speaker:time, but I do try to. And then those goals, they're always
Speaker:changing as well. Yeah. There's a lot to writing them down,
Speaker:visualizing them, telling them to your partner
Speaker:or your friend. It's something about, like, you just feel, like, more accountable to them
Speaker:when they're down on a piece of paper or whatever. Yeah. It makes them
Speaker:more real. Yeah. And I put them in the present tense, like,
Speaker:I am doing this, I have this, they're
Speaker:present. Not like I want to do this or I hope to do.
Speaker:It's like, I am doing this, I have this, and I've done that for years.
Speaker:And it's funny because just randomly, there'll be things that I write about.
Speaker:I kid you not. And then, let's say if it's working with an
Speaker:artist, a few months later, this artist will reach out.
Speaker:This has happened with so many things, and I don't even know how to
Speaker:explain it. And it just happened recently with something with an
Speaker:artist who I just had lunch with the other day, but someone who I
Speaker:wanted to work with. And then they read an interview that I
Speaker:did in tape op magazine and then
Speaker:they reached out to me. Most bizarre thing. And I was just trying to think,
Speaker:like, how can I connect with this artist? And I was being a little slow
Speaker:at doing it. And, like, I don't know, it's kind of
Speaker:going back and forth on doing it or not. And then they
Speaker:reached out. So it's just really bizarre. Yeah, I feel like
Speaker:a lot of people, at least I believe that you kind of find
Speaker:what you're looking for. It's like if you're looking for
Speaker:a positive experience walking into the studio, then you're going to have a positive
Speaker:experience. And I think that applies to what you're talking about. It's like you're looking
Speaker:to work with these people. You're going to somehow find your way to that space.
Speaker:And I guess right before we go, last question. It sounds like
Speaker:you're not afraid to reach out to somebody that you are passionate about that you
Speaker:want to work with. Can you speak to that and tell younger kids, like,
Speaker:hey, reach out to people that you want to work with? I guess the fact
Speaker:that you're doing it should be an example enough that it's okay to reach out
Speaker:and say, hey, I love your music. Is there any chance we can work together?
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, I've done that for years before social
Speaker:media and before the Internet,
Speaker:many years ago. That's awesome. If there was someone that I've liked and
Speaker:wanted to collaborate with, I would just try to hit him up. And
Speaker:often it's led to really cool things and sometimes it's not an
Speaker:immediate thing that happens. Yeah. There was one artist,
Speaker:this artist, Sandra Lurke, a norwegian artist
Speaker:who I heard his first album and just
Speaker:loved his album. And I reached out and
Speaker:through know somehow I was able to connect and we
Speaker:connected and I said, man, I'd love your music. It's really cool. I'd
Speaker:love to work with you someday if you ever are in LA or whatever. He
Speaker:was based in Norway at the time and I think
Speaker:two or three years later we ended up doing a record together
Speaker:and we made a really cool album. It may not be an
Speaker:immediate thing and it has to be the right communication as well because you don't
Speaker:want to bother people, but you want to be
Speaker:enthusiastic and you want to be intentional with what you're wanting
Speaker:to do. But not waste people's time. So I'm also mindful of that.
Speaker:Yeah, it can't be about money. It's got to be about
Speaker:art. Well, yeah, it definitely can't be about the money. I just think some people
Speaker:are like, how am I going to get gigs? I'm going to email everybody I
Speaker:know. And that's not like, reaching out to people that you don't actually want to
Speaker:work with just because you think they'll pay you is a horrible idea. This job,
Speaker:and it's hard to call it a job, honestly, because working on music
Speaker:doesn't feel like a job. There's other jobs. Working on a roof
Speaker:would be a job in the summer. That would be a very hard job. I
Speaker:would not be good at that. If you're doing it for the money, I feel
Speaker:like it's harder. It's harder for stuff to flow to you.
Speaker:When I started off, yeah, I needed to get paid, but I wasn't doing
Speaker:it for the money. I was doing it because I wanted to work on music,
Speaker:and that's still what I do. I take projects all the time
Speaker:that are not necessarily. Some will be very low budget
Speaker:projects. I just love it so much. Got to do it.
Speaker:Yeah, I just want to work with the artist. So
Speaker:sometimes, if you can really have it be
Speaker:about the music, I think things will flow to you.
Speaker:You may not make a lot of money at first, but it will
Speaker:cause the money to come. It'll cause the projects to
Speaker:come. But I think really it's building up an abundance of really good
Speaker:projects to show people and to get out there. And that's
Speaker:basically what I did early on. I was just working on lots of stuff and
Speaker:try to find cool stuff to work on. Not just anything, but stuff
Speaker:that could hopefully get people's attention. And I was doing a lot of it for
Speaker:no money. But one of those projects, the drummer that
Speaker:worked with me on that project, he ended up becoming the drummer
Speaker:for a french band called Air. And then he played the stuff that we did.
Speaker:I didn't get paid for it. They gave me literally pizza, like lunch
Speaker:and dinner, and I was cool with it. I loved it. We're working on
Speaker:cool music. I got to work on a trident, a range, which I'd never
Speaker:used before. It was great, nice. But he played it for air, and then that
Speaker:caused me to work with air, and then that caused me to work
Speaker:with a lot of british artists. I guess
Speaker:all I'm saying is just, you never know. It should definitely be all about the
Speaker:creativity. Hopefully the money will come,
Speaker:hopefully. That's awesome. Please share
Speaker:with people anything you want to share. If there's a project that you're really
Speaker:passionate about, if you have management that they can reach out to, I don't know
Speaker:if there's anything you want to share. This is a little spot for you. Yeah.
Speaker:I mean, people can hit me up however they want to find me.
Speaker:Instagram, I have a website. They can find me there. They can reach
Speaker:out to me. Know. Awesome. Tony, this has been so much fun.
Speaker:I'm glad we got to connect. Like I said, we know so many people, same
Speaker:people. And I've listened to so much music you've made. So thanks for making all
Speaker:my music. Thank you so much. Yeah. Appreciate it. Yeah. Loved it.
Speaker:Thank you.
