The Evolving Role of Fathers: A Conversation with David Pisarra

In this episode of Saddle Up Live, host Lesa welcomes David Pisarra, founder of Dads. Law School and host of The Men's Family Law Podcast. David shares his unique journey into family law and discusses the evolving role of fathers in today's society. The conversation highlights significant changes in fatherhood, including increased paternity leave and more involved parenting roles. They also touch on the importance of bonding and the impact of reduced conflict on children, emphasizing how dads and moms can work together for better parenting.

00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome

00:34 David Pizarra's Background and Journey

00:54 The Changing Role of Fathers

01:57 David's Personal Story and Career Shift

05:07 The Importance of Bonding and Paternity Leave

09:01 Modern Fatherhood and Co-Parenting

15:24 Concluding Thoughts on Fatherhood

16:56 Final Remarks and Farewell

Welcome listeners to Saddle Up Live.

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I'm super excited to have

David Pizarra here today.

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And I actually got to know David

a little bit on my podcast,

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Doing Divorce Different.

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And I thought it would be so fun to

have him on Saddle Up Live because he

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is giving us a different perspective

than I usually have on this podcast.

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He's giving us the dad's perspective.

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So if you want more information about dads

and the mistakes they make during divorce,

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go back to doing divorce different.

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But today on Saddle Up Live, we're

going to hear David's authentic story.

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What led him to do the work that he does.

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He is the founder of Dads.

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Law school.

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He's an author.

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He's got a podcast called

the men's family law podcast.

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So he's busy out there working.

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We're going to learn about

what led him to do that work.

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And then we're going to talk about

how dad's roles have changed.

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And I'm excited about this

because I'm watching my son.

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Be a father and I'm seeing great changes.

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And I saw, I told David, my husband

was a great, very hands on dad.

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And I can't even believe how much

more I'm seeing dads involved.

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So I can't wait to get

David's perspective.

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So welcome, David.

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Thank you for joining us here too.

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David Pisarra: Thank you, Lisa.

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It's great being here.

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You know, I'm really excited to talk

about your son and his experience because

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the way in which fathers are engaging

today is so dramatically different than

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like even my, my father's generation.

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It was like he was World War II,

totally different perspective.

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Where they were like, I'm

never changing a diaper hair.

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Dads are like, give me that kid.

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I want to be full time parent.

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I got dads fighting to be stay at home.

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Parents totally for world.

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Lesa Koski: I know.

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And the paternity leave even that's crazy.

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Okay.

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So, but David, like before we

get into the guts of that, Let my

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listeners get to know you a little.

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Share your story.

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Cause it's kind of interesting

and a little bit like mine.

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David Pisarra: Sure.

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So I'm a single gay man with no kids.

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I used to have a dachshund,

but he passed away.

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Dudley was the best.

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Dudley was this long and about

this tall and long floppy hair.

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And for years he would work under my desk.

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He would just sleep under

my desk while I worked.

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Um, but so 25 years ago, I started

bizarre and Chris, my law friend

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with my partner, and we met first day

of law school, became best friends.

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Open up our law office.

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I'm the marketing guy.

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I would go to the Rotary Club and the

Elks Club and the Chamber of Commerce

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and I do my little dog and pony show

because I wanted to do business law.

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I wanted to go be captain of industry.

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My partner wanted to do family law.

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And I was like, Oh no, ew, gross.

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But I would go and I would do my little

show and I would talk about what I

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wanted and how I could help people.

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And then I would always say,

and my partner does family

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and they would rush me.

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Can he lower my child support?

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Can he get me out of this alimony?

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I gotta get a divorce.

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I need a restraining order.

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And before I knew it,

his calendar was full.

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And then his calendar

spilling into my calendar.

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24 years later, I'm a divorce lawyer.

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I'm like, how did that happen?

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Lesa Koski: Isn't that crazy?

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Okay.

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And so what the listeners are probably

like, what do you guys have in common?

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Well, the thing is, is I have been

doing divorces and I've been married

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for 32 years and never divorced.

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So, and David's helping dads and well,

you were kind of a dad to your Dotson.

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David Pisarra: Right.

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Dudley at one point

Dudley had three gay dads.

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And let me tell you,

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nothing better than having three gay dads.

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Lesa Koski: Oh, are you

getting another dog?

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David Pisarra: I will

eventually, I'm still

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Lesa Koski: kind of, it's

hard, you know, it's a, it's

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David Pisarra: a huge commitment.

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And we were lucky in that we

shared custody of, which, and I

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wrote a book called What About

Wally on how to co parent a pet.

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And it's based off of all of my

experience dealing with parents who

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are co parenting their children.

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Lesa Koski: Yeah.

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So I

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David Pisarra: have all this experience

and then it came to our dog and

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I'm like, I'm not fighting you over

custody, I'm not fighting you over time.

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And it was a really good experience, but a

full time dog is a lot of responsibility,

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you know, like being a full time single

parent, it's a lot of responsibility.

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And I like the idea of sharing because

i'm good at sharing I don't know

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eventually i'll get another one.

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We'll see.

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Lesa Koski: Yeah.

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Yeah Well, and that you know, it's

interesting because in a lot of divorces

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that I work on the pet is an issue

That we need to talk about So so that

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is something Okay, so now I don't want

to talk about divorce anymore because

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that's all on the other podcast.

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I want to talk about All the role

of fathers has changed and I can

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tell you watching my son, Oh my

gosh, she's got a little baby

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girl and they've got another one.

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I'm due any minute.

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I mean, she's been, yeah, so

that's going to be really fun.

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Um, but he, I love the idea that

they, they get paternity leave.

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My husband never had that.

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And, um, so he's going to, you get to

do that together, you know, after you

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have a child, you get to be together

taking care of them, or I think

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sometimes people will separate them

out, you know, sometimes, sometimes,

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David Pisarra: sometimes

people will alternate the time.

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Um, I did a movie called

dadness d a d n e s s.

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It's on youtube.

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It's a little short documentary It's

a short maybe I think 20 25 minutes

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Talking about the role of fathers in our

society and how it's changed what what

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dadness means It's like this concept of

being a dad and how that's important.

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I didn't know

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Lesa Koski: that that's really cool

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David Pisarra: I've done a lot of stuff.

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So

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Lesa Koski: yeah

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David Pisarra: One of the things

that came out of that was a lot of

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companies offer paternity leave You

But men are hesitant to take it.

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They're hesitant because they're concerned

that if they take those six weeks, then

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it's going to set them back in their

careers, which is of course, analogous

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to the concern that many women have of,

do I want to have a kid because then

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my career gets set back and then we're

dealing with all these other issues.

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So more and more dads though,

are taking advantage of

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paternity leave and they should.

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There's a really big biological reason

for this, and if you think about it from

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this perspective, that child has spent

nine months essentially one on one with

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mom, meaning completely incubated, and

now they've separated, and now that child

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is coming into the world and has a father

and needs that time to bond with dad, and

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that's the perfect time because they're

really receptive to it at that age.

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is very sensual.

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It's sm are coming in new feelin I

protected and they need to have that

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experience t man being held by their

f And so as more dads are taking

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advantage better for the Children and

what's happening is also it's better

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for the dads because it allows them

to bond to get that oxytocin going to

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really make that emotional connection

to their Children that they need.

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So I'm seeing more and more dads

take that paternity leave And then

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what ends up happening is now they're

really protective of their time.

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Now they're like, I want

more of this, which is great.

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It's what we want to see.

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We want to see those engaged

fathers because dads bring so much

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to the relationship and parenting

and skills and what they do.

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And we know the children who are

raised with the father in their life.

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Do you better academically, socially,

emotionally, physically, less drug

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abuse, less substance abuse, less

early childhood sexual activity.

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Everything is just better when

you've got both parents at home

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and having a strong father is a

huge indicator of lifetime success.

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Lesa Koski: Amen.

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And I can't help, but I thought of

something that was kind of parallel when

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you were talking about the bonding where

I have a unique experience where, um,

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I naturally had my older children and

we adopted our baby, our baby by far.

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So we have three and I think,

and we were so fortunate.

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Um, and I know this isn't true of

everyone, but she was two days old

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when we were able to adopt her.

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And that bonding.

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I am telling you it was, it was funny.

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I forgot that she didn't come out

of my body the moment I held her.

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And I, I just know when you were

talking about that with fathers, it

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just struck me that bonding is so

important and the earlier the better.

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I mean, and of course you can't always

have that, but the earlier the better.

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David Pisarra: A hundred percent.

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Lesa Koski: Yeah.

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David Pisarra: You know, in my men's

group, I'm part of a pretty big men's

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group and, um, I remember this like 15

years ago, we were at lunch and one of

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the guys was talking about how he's been a

stay at home dad and he's describing what

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a life is like and how he's enjoying it.

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Coming from being like an academic,

he was going for his PhD or whatever.

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And like, the next 10 shares in the group

were like, I want to be a stay at home

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dad, I want to be a stay at home dad.

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Like, as soon as you like pop the

bubble, like they all want it.

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Lesa Koski: Yeah, I want to have that

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David Pisarra: experience because

they're really connected to their

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children People think men are not

connected to their children and they

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really are far more than what they

want, what society wants to acknowledge.

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Lesa Koski: Well, and this

is interesting, David.

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I can't even believe I

didn't talk about this.

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This is my other son, my son in law, Alec.

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Um, so my daughter is in her residency

and they have a three year old.

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You talk about Mr.

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Dad, he is, he has the maternal,

he, it, so I can't even believe

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I didn't bring that up to you.

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I was thinking about Jack because they've

got this baby, another one coming on

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the, but Alec is, He is the one that

my grandson runs to, um, you know,

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when he skins his knee, I'm sure it's

a little hard for a doctor mom, but

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it, it has worked and I think, and he's

still working, so he's not stay at home.

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Dad, boy, it's tough, you know, and

they're a little bit further away, so

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it's harder for me to help as much.

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Hopefully that's going to be

changing soon, but I mean, his role,

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his role is Completely different.

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Also, just like I see Jack, you

know, being the one who's doing

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swimming lessons with their daughter.

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And that's Jack is my son, you know,

and I just, and getting change in the

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diapers, um, getting lots of meals,

you know, take kind of doing more

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of it's more equal, it's more equal.

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And I love it.

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And the babies are happy.

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David Pisarra: And, and your son and

your son in law are both happier too.

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Because it brings all

of those emotions up.

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It brings those memories up.

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We're creating experiences that allow

them to find the real value in life.

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I mean, we love to talk in America

about how important it is to go make

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a million dollars a year and be like

captain of industry and own lots of stuff.

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2008, my world changed

dramatically as most of ours did.

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Recession hit hard and I

had to go through a reset.

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And part of my reset was.

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dumping a household full of just

stuff, things that I bought on TV,

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couches I didn't need, you know,

how many couches can you sit on?

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Right?

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I mean, seriously, it was the

most freeing experience because I,

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what I came to realize was what's

really important in this life.

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And that is what most dads are

now starting to recognize is

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what's really important to them.

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Yeah.

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They like getting a promotion at work.

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Yeah.

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They like the bonuses, the paychecks.

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Most of my clients, most of my friends

who are fathers would live 10 percent

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less of a financial life if they could

have 10 percent more time with their kids.

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Lesa Koski: Amen.

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They realize

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David Pisarra: like that's

the real value in life.

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Lesa Koski: Yep.

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And it's interesting because, um, my

dad, he's 83 and you know, when I grew

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up, dad's You know, my mom would, she

worked part time and she would come and

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watch my tennis meets or track meets.

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And my dad couldn't always, he

was working, you know, and it

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was, everybody was doing that.

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And then it was so funny because, um,

when my kids were little, there was a

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time when he was still working and then,

um, he retired and he was like, I mean,

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I don't want to make you feel bad, but

I think I like being a grandpa more than

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a dad because he got to spend the time.

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And now with their great grandchildren,

my parents are still involved.

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And it's a time that my dad

really gets to hold the baby.

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And it's so, I mean, he went deer

hunting the day I was born and

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he's going to listen to this.

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He's the only family member

that listens to my podcast.

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Are you kidding me?

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I mean, I would not have allowed

that, but it was a different time.

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And then I think of my husband's

dad was, has passed away and he was.

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a bit older.

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I think he was older when he, when

my husband was born, but for he,

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um, he did spend quite a bit of time

with his kids even way back then.

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So what a blessing, what a blessing.

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And he worked in the mines

in Northern Minnesota.

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So, yeah, but he would come home probably

like three in the afternoon and he did

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get to go to their sporting events.

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And, um, so, you know, um, I don't know.

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I just feel like I've been so blessed

to be able to see, see my dad, get to

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experience, be married to someone who

knew that before we were together.

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What a blessing.

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So if you're a dad and listening,

I mean, it is so worth it to

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be connected to your kids.

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And I think people know that now.

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I mean, I think it's, it's awesome.

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A

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David Pisarra: hundred percent.

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Lesa Koski: You know, and it's

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David Pisarra: better for everybody.

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I mean, studies will show that

older adults who are connected with

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their children and grandchildren

live longer, better lives.

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Lesa Koski: I've seen that.

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I've seen that on Instagram.

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I'm like, yeah, I'm going to

work less and grandma more.

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Exactly.

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David Pisarra: Ooh.

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I like that.

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She put that on a coffee mug.

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Lesa Koski: Yeah, I should.

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I should work less grandma more.

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Um, and, but I, and I

see it with my parents.

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They were very involved with

their grandchildren in there, um,

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in their eighties, my dad plays

tenants three nights a week.

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I think he might be better than

he's none of us can beat him.

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They're just.

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Um, super active and, um, and

very active in their grand,

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great grandchildren's life.

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So they help with them.

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David Pisarra: Yeah.

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Lesa Koski: Yeah.

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So it is, it's awesome.

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David Pisarra: One of the things, one

of the things that I see is like, like

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in my practice, I see dads who are

fighting for more time with their children

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because what's happening, like in your,

in your children's generation and the

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generation behind that's coming behind

them, they're not getting married as

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much, but they're still having children.

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Yeah.

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So we still have parenting

issues and co parenting issues

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and they're really stepping up.

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They're stepping up by taking

the co parenting class.

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They're stepping up by

taking the parenting class.

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They're showing how to learn early

childhood development and then using

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that as they're raising their children.

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So it's a really nice time to be watching

men step up into a new role in our

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society and being proactive about it.

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Lesa Koski: Yep.

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And yeah, and that hits home because

I know my son in law and my son,

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um, they're, they're It's so cute.

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They'll say, Oh, I looked that up.

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Like if they're kids doing something that,

you know how they do wackadoodle things

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and you're like, Oh, what's going on?

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Well, I looked that up and this

is why they say that happens.

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And I'm like, what?

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That's so awesome and cool.

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So I think, you know, today's world

can be rough, you know, there's rough

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stuff going on, but there's a lot

of really good things coming out.

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To new and things are

getting better in some ways.

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So I don't wanna always be gloom

and doom because I think some people

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can that get that way these days.

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But, um, , you know,

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David Pisarra: we're not

gonna touch that third rail.

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I see it.

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Lesa Koski: Oh well David, I see our time

is coming to an end, but I'm so thankful.

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Is there anything else you wanna

add that we didn't cover about

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how the role of dads is changing?

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David Pisarra: I think that,

well, because you can't have

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one change without the other.

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So dad's role is changing,

but so is mom's role, right?

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Like she's got to counterbalance that.

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Like there's a, you've got to,

you've got to give up time.

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You got to let go of the reins.

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And the big thing I think for both

parents is to remember is that just

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because somebody is parenting differently

from you doesn't make them wrong.

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Lesa Koski: Amen.

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And that's, what's so important, not only

for when you're parenting together, But

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when you're getting divorced, because

you can't control that and they're

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both important, they need both of you.

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David Pisarra: Even if you're not getting

a, like a technical divorce because you

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weren't married, but you're separate.

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Lesa Koski: Right.

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Right.

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David Pisarra: That's a big factor too.

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Like I've got people who dad

does things one way, mom does

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things another, and that's okay.

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They're not right.

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If you're not hurting the

kid, difference is okay.

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Lesa Koski: I love that you brought that

up because what I always tell people,

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would you get mad if grandma did it?

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Like if someone comes in, my husband, you

know, my ex is feeding him donuts every

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day for breakfast or whatever it is.

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And you go, well, would

you get mad at grandma?

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No.

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Well then let it go because it's more

important that you're not fighting

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and that you're both in their lives.

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Right?

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David Pisarra: Huge,

hugely more important.

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because that fighting is

impacts on that child for life.

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The negative impact in the household

are huge about that for an hour.

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Lesa Koski: I

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But yeah, so whether you're

divorced or married, the fighting

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has a, has an impact on them.

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So yeah.

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Yep.

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All right.

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Well, David, thank you so much for

joining me on Saddle Up Live too.

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And listeners, if you want to hear him

more talking more about divorce, go to

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Doing Divorce Different and we'll have all

of David's information in the show notes.

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David Pisarra: Thank you, Lisa.

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Lesa Koski: Take care.

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Bye bye.