In today’s incredible episode, I chat with my inspiring client Karen, the grand prize transformation winner from the first round of The Body Composition Project! When Karen joined the program, she was dealing with constant back and neck pain that felt impossible to manage. Physical therapy and back injections? Didn’t help. But through The Body Composition Project, she became nearly pain-free and completely transformed her body and mindset. If you're stuck in your fitness journey or dealing with chronic pain, you won't want to miss this! 

Karen shares what it was like before her transformation – her struggles with diets, jumping from program to program, and feeling skeptical about trying something new. She discusses how she faced her fears, realized that change is possible at any age, and made simple shifts in her diet that worked without giving up the foods she loves. And you'll hear her DEXA scan results prove it all! 

Want FREE access to my brand new four-week strength training plan, Strength Without Stress? Head over to hollyperkins.com/review where you can upload a screenshot of your review and gain immediate access. This is a limited-time offer before it sells for $197, so be sure to grab it now!

Topics Covered:

• Karen’s biggest worries, pains, and experiences with other treatments before The Body Composition Project
• The truth about program hopping
• The major changes Karen noticed in her back pain 
• Karen’s DEXA scan results 
• Why Karen is no longer prioritizing weight loss 
• Other ways Karen’s life has changed as a result of this journey 
• Advice for overcoming the fear of getting started
• Tips for shifting your diet that aren’t restrictive 
• How Karen pushed through her most challenging moments 
• Karen’s favorite and least favorite strength exercises  

Resources Mentioned:

• Listen to the first 45 episodes of Holly Perkins Health Podcast HERE
• Check out The Body Composition Project HERE
• Transcripts can be found on the official blog page for this episode at hollyperkins.com/blog

Follow Me: 

Find me on Instagram: @hollyperkins

Learn more on my website: hollyperkins.com

Connect with me on Facebook: facebook.com/HollyPerkinsFitness/

Disclaimer: Content and information as part of The Holly Perkins Health Podcast is for general interest, education, and entertainment purposes only. The use of information on this podcast or materials or products linked from this podcast or website is at the user’s own risk. The content of this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Users should not disregard or delay in obtaining medical advice for any medical or mental health condition they may have and should seek the assistance of their health care professionals for any such conditions.

If you've ever been in pain, you know how debilitating it is. It colors every moment of every day, and it is absolutely no way to live. Physical therapy didn't help, and injections in her back didn't fix her, but this did, oh, and she also dropped 21 pounds of body fat. If you want to hear how Karen turned her health around, keep listening. Hello and welcome to a brand new episode. I'm so glad you're here. This one is so special. If you're new, welcome. I'm Holly Perkins, and I'm here to help you become more muscle and less fat so that you can actually enjoy your years ahead. Stay out of the rocking chair and live pain free. Every now and then, I'm blown away by a client's transformation, and this is one of them. Earlier this year, Karen came to me out of desperation and a desire to truly change her health and her body composition. After a rocky start of having to learn the language of my programming, it takes a minute, Karen started getting some really impressive signs of progress. So she didn't stop. Five months later, she had increased her muscle, decreased her body fat by 21 pounds in five months, and found herself pain free for the first time in years. If you're struggling with a bad back hip pain or knee arthritis, you might think that you're stuck and that there's not much you can do about it. You might have even had a doctor tell you that that's just the way it is, and welcome to aging. But the truth is, it's not, I promise you, the human body has an incredible ability to heal and to transform when you give it the right parameters and environment, my clients have overcome back injuries, patellofemoral syndrome, herniated discs, frozen shoulder, pinched nerves, sciatica and the list goes on. When you strengthen your muscles the right way, your joints are freed up and able to move the way that they're designed. So listen in today, because Karen's story will leave you feeling inspired and ready to take action and fix your aches pains and injuries for good. Join me for this incredible interview with Karen.

I am so excited about this conversation today. So Karen is joining me, and she was the grand prize transformation winner of the first round of my program, the body composition project, and this is my six month small group coaching program. Very hands on. It's like working with me one on one. And Karen joined us for the founders round earlier this year in 2024 and I decided to offer transformation prizes, not to the women who had the biggest visual transformation, that was part of the equation, but I really was looking for someone who really transformed on all levels, not just from like the bikini shots, if you will, but Really, what did she learn? What did she have to work through? What were her challenges? What was the struggle? How did she change mentally, emotionally, psychologically and physically? One of the big factors and why I chose Karen is because early on in the program, she really struggled. It was challenging for her and as a coach, I see often how people navigate challenges, and it's a 5050 outcome. Sometimes people walk through the fire, step up to the challenge, take a deep breath and keep going. And sometimes people get discouraged, and Karen decided the former. She decided to step up and rise up to the occasion and dig her heels in and learn this new conversation. And therefore, she really transformed in big ways. Now, as I've said before in this interview series, I mentioned my program, the body composition project, because it's an amazing, incredible program. And this isn't an opportunity to promote it or to sell it, and we're really not even here to talk about that program. Inevitably, it gets brought up. You might be listening to this episode right now. Yeah, you can change. You can grow through your challenge. And my goal is to share with you the stories of women just like every other woman out there who did it. So Karen, welcome. I'm so excited that you were open to join me for this. And I would love to start if you would, if you would just tell us a little bit about who you were, where you were, what was going on in your life before we had the great opportunity to work together, what you were struggling with and really like, what was up for you in your life, before you had this incredible transformation.

So Hi, Holly, thanks for having me here today. Before I joined your program, I struggled mainly with how I was feeling. As you mentioned, I had diagnosed with a degenerative back to just disease in my back and neck, actually, and I had recently had shots in my lower back to alleviate some of that discomfort when those shots didn't work for me, I was trying to figure out another way to help me feel better. I was concerned that here I am at 57 I'm worried about my health. As I continue to age, things will only get more difficult, and if I can't fix this now, I you know, I need to fix it in order to have some quality of life. I need to figure out how to either manage the pain or fix it all together, or both, and do it so that I'm safe and don't get hurt. And the other thing is, I just I wanted to enjoy my future and I wanted to feel good in my body, and that that definitely included my outward appearance as well, because I wasn't happy with the way I looked.

What would you say was the worry that you might have, let's say in the middle of the night, right? I think all of this is so understandable, especially around the degenerative disc disease. I say that slowly, because that's such a mouthful. In some ways, I think the goal is obvious, as you just stated, but in your, let's say, like darker times or deepest worry, what was your biggest worry at that time?

My biggest worry at that time was just not being able to have a fulfilling life because I was so plagued with pain. So the physical pain in my back was intense at times, you know, different times I sit all day, you know, it would intensify, but I didn't know how to manage that. So my fear was again, as I continue to age, how was I going to have a quality of life that I enjoyed and be able to do things and not that I couldn't get out of bed or anything like that? But it was just this was always on my mind because I didn't want to pull my back out. I had to be so cautious about that. That was my biggest worry. And then, you know, like I said, I didn't like the way I looked in clothes. Certain things fit. Certain things never fit certain things. You know, you just didn't feel good about yourself. I didn't feel confident or or just really want to go do too many things, because I just hated the way I looked.

And I hear this from other women that there's also this notion of, like, my body's broken, right when you're in pain and it's limiting what you're able to do every day. I think it's normal to be like, well, what can I do? Because, quote, unquote, my body's broken. What were you doing? What was your physical activity life at the time? Were you working out? Were you not? What did exercise life look like?

So I was working out, but I wasn't working out with intention, and I wasn't working out strategically. I was the all or nothing, both feet in, let's go hard. And then I was yo yo dieting, trying different programs, never having any consistency. I might do it three days a week on one given week, and then somehow or another the next week, I could talk myself out of each and every one of those workouts, or look up something new and try it out as well. And so it was very haphazard and frustrating, because, as you know, there's so much information out there, and that gets overwhelming and confusing, but all the while, I'm just spinning my wheels with no blueprint. That's what I struggled with,

super common. I call this program hopping, in this day and age of information overload. And number one, everyone's an expert now these days, and there are a lot of legitimate experts with conflicting ideologies. You know, respectfully, there are some very knowledgeable people out there that have very different programming ideas than I do. It doesn't mean they're wrong, and I'm right. It's just there's so much information, and there's these believable voices. And then, of course, there are, like I said, everyone's an expert, so I think it's really normal for so many people if you, if you don't have your north star and you're not on a program, if you don't commit wholeheartedly to a thing, it's so normal to be bouncing around and program hopping. I see. It all the time. So first and foremost, no shame on you, because that's normal and it's rare a person is going to get results when they're bouncing around between strategies and ideologies. What were some of the things that you were doing? So you said, you know, you'd get inspired and you go all in or not. If we were to look back on a week or a time when you were like all in and you were following a workout program, what were the type of things that you were choosing into

I was doing strength training, because I do, I do enjoy that. I was doing some cardio intermittently as well, but just no not checking a heart rate or not, you know, not staying in that zone or not lifting heavier. That was a huge thing. You know, I was doing weights and I could do more, and I would just go into my workout room and just do what was enough, and it just and, you know, no surprise there that nothing ever changed for me. It didn't help me, but then, as I'm also sore, and my back's also sore, so then it was okay, well, now you shouldn't be doing this, because you're gonna hurt yourself even more. So they didn't those things didn't work together that well, because when you're sore, you don't feel like working out. When you're working out, you don't want to get sore.

Yeah, that's a big one. I have a very specific perspective on muscle soreness, especially with women over 45 over 50, it's just counterproductive, and you don't have to be sore to get a good workout. I would even argue soreness should be avoided, but there are other signs that tell us you actually had a meaningful and effective workout. So when you were doing that, first of all, I love that you were strength training and not overdoing the cardio. That's a big deal. And when you would go into your room, as you say, and strength train, were you haphazardly choosing exercises, or were you following any programming at all?

I was haphazardly choosing exercises for sure and doing what was comfortable, not doing what the uncomfortable I didn't follow a specific program. Periodically, I would look one up and apply it for a couple of weeks, and then it's like, Oh, great. I still I don't have results. So then I would drop it and try something else, and try working on my core. I don't know I was all over the map with what I was doing.

So I have a saying in my coaching programs, and I say this sometime publicly as well on the podcast, but it's a philosophy that the exercises that you hate the most are the ones you need the most, and the exercises that a person loves the most or does on the regular is usually because she is most comfortable with those exercises and good at those exercises, and therefore the transformation potential is limited. Would you say it was that way for you? You did all the exercises that you knew how to do and was good at.

It is very true. I would throw some in there that weren't so comfortable, but for the most part, they were things that I felt comfortable doing because I knew how to do them, and I was comfortable with my ability to do them that I wasn't going to hurt myself. So it was always about being in that safe zone,

which is smart if you you know, if someone is listening who does have a history of injury, I will say if you are going it alone, I would argue that is wise to stay safe, because you don't know the movement patterns that could be risky. And if you don't have someone supervising your technique, there could be nuances to your hip hinge that could irritate your back or your hip, or your walking lunge irritating your knee. So there too, I would really high five you, because that was wise with a history that you have also at the time. What does your diet look like?

For me, it was I was a healthy eater, but my portions were way off. I had a big appetite. I enjoy food, and I was just not a very balanced diet, if you will. I mean, I my quantities were the biggest thing I could eat healthy all day, but my quantities would be skewed

when you look back on it. Now, this is a bit of foreshadowing. Why do you think your appetite was so big and your portions therefore followed?

There's a part of me that thinks a lot of that was comfort, not a comfort zone, but I did that for comfort. When I was feeling bad, I would eat more, and I really am not. I don't know. I'm not an ice cream person. I'm not this person that reads the snack drawer at night. That was never it, but I think I just ate to feel better in some capacity, at least I wasn't. I was sore all over, but at least I wasn't going to be hungry so I would have these portions and just then feel guilty about it,

and it's crazy, because the truth is, food is nurturing. And it does provide that emotional comfort and security for us. I think I hear this a lot from women that come to me for coaching, almost as though they say something like, you just said I would turn to food because it was comforting, right? And often there's sort of like this hint of shame or guilt about that, and I'm like, no shame in that. Food does do that for us. It does. And as I often say, I believe that biology Trumps psychology. And so if your biology is also off and you're hungry and or your blood sugar is off and therefore you're more emotional, we turn to food for that, support, comfort, security, all of those things so normal. And I would even argue we don't have to remove that, and we certainly get better results when people are a bit more structured and intentional with their strategy. Were you eating breakfast at the time?

most days, But there would be days it would be one o'clock because I would have a busy, you know, call schedule with work, and I hadn't had anything to eat and it just had a cup of coffee, and, you know, the brain fog and just the shakes and, you know, thinking, Okay, well, you did it to yourself, you know, I mean, I would do breakfast most days. It wouldn't be sufficient to sustain me through a workout or post workout or anything like that. It would be something, but it may not be the right thing, but I did eat breakfast most days.

And did you have any specific ideologies? Were you trying to go low carb? Were you trying to do vegan or gluten free or anything, or were you just choosing healthy foods?

So I did a low carb I had a low carb approach that, I guess, had this limiting belief at the time that that was the right choice for me, and that's what was going to work. I would still eat carbs. I would still eat them. I just minimize them so I wasn't afraid of them, but I definitely pared them down and stuck more to proteins and vegetables and stuff like that. But not not a lot of rice, no, not a lot of potatoes, not a lot of fruit.

Carbs have been demonized without a doubt, since really early 90s, I would argue. And so if a person isn't really committed to following a program, it's really normal to assume carbs are the problem and then believe that you're eating low carb. Again. So super normal, and it's always so interesting for me to hear and in the transition what happens for people, because I would then say this some more foreshadowing. Are you eating low carb now?

No, no, no more low carb. I'm thrilled to be able to eat them after all these years on and off of no carb, low carb. I'm thrilled to have rice and have it fill me and not worry, not worry about it, not have that notion in my head anymore.

Yeah, and we will reveal where Karen is now as compared to where she was, but her actual metrics of transformation are also startling, and it's really wild. I hear that a lot where it's like I was doing low carb and it wasn't working, and then I started following a strategy. Now I get to eat carbs, and I'm miles ahead of where I was, and I think that that right there. I've got hundreds, if not maybe 1000s, of client testimonials stating exactly that carbs weren't the problem. They were not the problem because Karen is so far ahead now and has radically transformed her body composition, and is eating the carbs, and I would argue, in decent quantity. Obviously it's not carb loading and overloading. There is a strategy here. But as you just heard, she's not avoiding it either. So let's talk about what changed, and then we will reveal the incredible actual metrics of where you landed. Because I think a lot of people are going to see your transformation. If you're listening to this in podcast form on my website, I will have kind of a pictorial, if you will, to share some of Karen's transformation so that you can see her visual transformation, but also to see her DEXA scan results to give a little context. As part of my program, the body composition project, I wanted to make sure that I brought real, undeniable proof and metrics to guide us in your journey to better body composition, so that you can be more muscle and less fat. So at the start of the program, I have every participant get a body composition scan. Ideally, it's a DEXA scan, but it can be an in body so we see where you are, and we make sure. That your programming matches the target, which is to become more muscle and less fat. So we know when Karen came in where she was, and I will reveal where she ended. And it's pretty startling, but Karen tell us a little bit about the changes that you made.

So part of my biggest change was was also my mindset. I think over the years, I had convinced myself that the change was actually impossible, so therefore, that's what I believed. So then, when I heard about this program and it being different, it wasn't about losing weight, it wasn't about you're only successful if you lose 40 pounds or 50 pounds, or whatever, the mindset was different. And you know, it was, hey, I want to build muscle. So those habits were also things that I enjoyed from prior strength training, my prior strength training years, so I was able to kind of get behind that, because I liked doing that piece of it. So I thought that was going to be a big missing piece for me.

So let's talk about a little bit of the reveal next in terms of what happened for you, and then we'll backtrack again to some of the details of what you changed, because I think the details of the change need to be in the context of the results that you got. So Karen, tell me now, where are you now? What would you say as a result of going on this journey and the results that you got? What are the things you are most excited about that happened in the transformation?

The biggest thing for me was my back pain is almost gone. I mean, I am still a little stiff in the morning, as you would expect, until I kind of get going and I do some stretches to kind of get myself, you know, prepared for the day, and that helps a lot. But my back is significantly better than it was, and that's just from exercise. But, you know, that's not shots in your back or PT, which I did that for a while too, but this is just exercise making yourself stronger. So the muscle that I was able to put on paid off greatly and making me feel better. It also paid off greatly in my appearance. I mean, I feel I feel so much better and more confident and better in clothes, and just just feel better in general. All over I just see those pictures of myself, and I think, how did you ever let yourself get there? And now I just, I see pictures of myself, and it's, it's vastly different.

Yeah, it's encouraging and exciting. So huge. So also, let's touch back upon you actually had shots in your back for the pain, correct and physical therapy, right? How many years were you trying to fix your back pain?

I would say seriously, about a year and a half. So it was just one of these things that kind of, I was living with and dealing with all the time. You almost you get so immune to it hurting every day that that's sort of just your norm. You don't really think about, hey, I got to do something about this before I started. About the last year and a half, I had gone the route of having the PT, which was very helpful. I mean, at least I felt again, I felt safe there I was doing things that people were treating me for my injury specifically, and I wasn't, you know, doing anything careless, but the shots were supposed to then just minimize that inflammation and just make me feel better in general. And they didn't work,

which is wild, and I hear this all the time again, right? And to sort of also illustrate this a bit more, Karen is doing dead lifts and hip thrusts and squats and RDLs and all those exercises, walking lunges, all those exercises that often doctors say, do not do that. Did a doctor or physical therapist ever say to you, don't bend over, don't hip hinge, don't deadlift? Did you ever get those messages?

I did not. I did not get that.

Okay, that's great, because a lot of times when we're talking about back issues and exercise and going to physical therapy, so often people are like, Oh, don't you dare deadlift. It's the worst thing for your back when it's actually the opposite. If a person is not strengthening or reinforcing the movement patterns that we make during the day, you will never get out of trouble. A dead lift, a squat, a hip thrust, a walking lunge, a step up, those movement patterns have to be strengthened to get the body functioning optimally, provided you've got good technique, right? I mean, technique is everything. If you have bad technique and you dead lift the wrong way, there's a good chance you're going to get injured. And so I wanted to say that, because I think it's wild, and people are like, wow, you were in pain, got shots and physical therapy didn't work, and now you have no pain. What were you doing? And I think the short story is progressively getting stronger with great technique. Would you agree? I would agree. Yeah, nothing crazy to it. No. See. Secret, literally, basic movement patterns, simple exercises, in many regards, done well is what strengthens the body, including your back or any body area that you have trouble with. Do you have back pain at all anymore?

As you know, I get stiff from sitting a lot all day. And like I said, sometimes in the morning I'm pretty stiff, but it's nothing like it used to be, nothing like it used to be.

And there's a big difference between stiffness and pain, right? I mean, I think most of us have a tendency to get stiffness if we sit too long. I believe we can dissolve that as well with proper training, and in time, I'd love to get you to the point where you're like, never stiff whatsoever that can happen, which is huge. Let's talk about some of the actual, real metrics of your transformation. Loving how you look now is also a very big deal. In my opinion, those are the two most important benefits a person can get from a program and oh, by the way, a person doesn't need to lose weight, per se, to enjoy how they look, right? I don't care what the actual transformation is in terms of your measurements and your metrics, strength training alone can help people be happier with their appearance yours just happened to come with a significant change in your body composition. So let's take a look at where Karen started. So her first DEXA scan measure date was March 29 of 2024, so the very end of March. Let's call it April 1 for ease of conversation, and at that point, your body weight was 182 technically 180 1.9 but 182 and your lean muscle mass at that time was 54% so if you happen to be new to my podcast or to My conversation, I want to explain this for a moment quickly. When you get a body composition screening, there are a variety of ways of doing that. There are different ways of measuring it, whether it's skin fold caliper analysis, hydrostatic weighing, a DEXA scan by electrical impedance, also known often as an in body scan, or one of those home biometrics that you might be using at home. Those are almost always bio electrical impedance. So there's a variety of ways that we get this information about how much of you is muscle and how much of you is fat. It's always relative to your body mass, what Earth is saying you weigh in pounds or grams, or whatever it may be. So the DEXA scan right now is our most accurate way to determine how much of you is muscle and how much of you is fat. I'm also parcel to a bod pod, which is air displacement, but we don't see a lot of Bod Pod facilities anymore. I'm not sure why. I've heard that the machines were problematic and expensive to fix, and we are seeing an emergence of more DEXA scans for body composition. You may have heard that a DEXA scan is what's used to determine bone density, same machine, different report. So in this situation, as often as possible, I will have my clients and participants get a DEXA scan if they can. As I said, my second choice would be an in body, but I really prefer a DEXA thankfully. Karen, after jumping through many hoops, was able to get a DEXA scan. And so when you get this scan, it's sadly, our culture is so fat phobic and focused on body fat for the prevention of metabolic diseases, understood that most of these reports are scanning and looking for your body fat percentage, so they always kick out a report. Here's your body fat percentage, as if that is the most important metric everyone wants to see. And that's silly, because most of the time your body fat percentage is less than all of the other mass in your body. That's the good stuff, the bone and the muscle. And yet, for some reason, we are so laser focused on body fat percentage that being said, pretty much every body composition scan tells me the coach, what your body fat percentage is. The opposite to that, if your body fat percentage is 30% body fat, that other 70% of your body weight is made up of bone and soft tissue. The soft tissue can be. Skeletal muscle. It can be lean muscle mass, it can be other tissues. So technically, the opposite of your body fat percentage is a mixture of weight for ease of conversation and to level the playing field so that we can compare apples to apples. What I do in my community is I simply subtract your body fat percentage from your total body mass, how much you weigh, and that number I call lean muscle mass, the opposite of your body fat. Now that is not accurate at all. It just makes it easier again, as I said, for us to level the playing field in a group coaching program like this. So when Karen got her body composition scan, it told us that when we subtract out her body fat percentage and convert it, it put her at 54% lean muscle mass, and that represents a lean mass weight of 98.4 pounds. That was in March of 2024. Body Composition project is a six month program, and Karen was eager to see what was happening, because she was getting really great results week after week, month after month, so she actually got a second DEXA scan only five months later on August, 30, 2024, exactly five months later, and her total Body Mass went down by 19.3 pounds, which is huge. The average weight loss there is 12 pounds full stop. So Karen lost a total body mass of 19.3 pounds, bringing her body weight down to 160 2.6 and what's more impressive is that her lean body mass went up to 100.3 pounds when we convert that apples to apples. That brought her to a lean muscle mass percentage of 62% which is huge. She went from 54 to 62% in five months, which is a big, big deal. More interestingly, when we drill down on her DEXA scan, she lost 21 pounds of fat mass. Now remember, the scale only went down 19.3 pounds she lost more fat and gained muscle, two pounds of muscle, even though the scale only changed 19.3 pounds. And I say only because that's actually very, very significant. So her transformation was huge, and only with a gain of two pounds of muscle. Now, in full transparency, I want my participants to gain more muscle than that, but with the amount of fat mass that Karen lost, we often do see a bit of a hindrance in the gaining of muscle, because, obviously, she was eating in a caloric deficit, so that the body fat would come off. And sometimes that does limit how much muscle you can build, although that is also negotiable. So for a quick moment, I would like to just bring to everyone's attention this topic of weight loss, injectable drugs like ozempic, and I actually am not on a side in this conversation. I'm not for or against them. I think they can be very helpful in the right circumstance. And I also think people are turning to them, thinking that it is a miracle opportunity, and I think that we have all seen someone we know lose weight very quickly, very drastically through the use of these medications. Interestingly, though, the average weight loss from these medications is only 12 pounds. And if you really put that into perspective, it's quite shocking to think that simultaneously, there is a well known loss of muscle mass that comes with these weight loss injectables and drugs. So you may be losing 12 pounds, but you're also losing muscle in there, which is exactly why I'm so passionate about using strength training to really help you become more muscle and less fat, because it's not a weight loss game anymore in many ways. I don't care what you weigh. I want to know what this lean muscle mass percentage is. So Karen, would you say at, you know, the beginning of. Journey. I think we know the answer that you would say, yes, you wanted to lose weight, and I know you wanted to build muscle, which was more important to you at the time.

At the time it was, well, it was sort of two fold at the time. It was to lose weight. I definitely wanted to be leaner in my appearance. But conversely, by doing, by putting on the muscle, you're losing weight at the same time, yeah,

absolutely. So now that you have lost the weight, I know that our goal is to continue helping you get leaner. Is less of the conversation about weight loss for you now,

absolutely, yeah, it's much more about for me, putting on that muscle and transforming my body that way, versus just trying to be have less of me

so well said. I hope everyone heard that loud and clear, because that is the problem with weight loss. Ultimately, it is about being less of you, and we know that, like weight loss alone doesn't necessarily mean a person is going to be healthier, and muscle is the most important aspect of your metabolism, and with weight loss general, weight loss generally comes muscle loss as well. So even though Karen did gain two pounds of muscle, had she not really been on a, let's say, even slightly focused on the weight loss aspect of it, she would have gained more muscle. So Karen is actually has joined us for the second round of the body composition project. So she's in a second round of it, where now we are focused on just building muscle. It's not about weight loss at all. If the weight loss happens, you'll be fine, right? Would you argue that, like you're cool with where your body weight is at this time?

Yes, yes, that's definitely true.

Amazing. So other than being out of pain and being proud of yourself for the transformation and being happier with your appearance? What are some other ways that your life has changed as a result of how you feel now and or who you are now through this journey?

Well, it's an interesting question, because I think with change, you know, there's always there's always fear. I think, you know, looking back, there was a fear that I might actually succeed, and that's kind of odd to feel that way. But now I feel really good to be here. I just feel differently. I feel like my mindset is better. I think clear I'm more focused in obviously, taking care of myself and making myself a priority, and just making that happen for me. So I'm much more focused on on me than I had been previously.

I want to jump on that comment because it is so huge and so common, because I remember this in the beginning of the program, and I hadn't until you just said it now this idea of fear and fear of, what if I succeed? What is that about, especially now that you've succeeded, if you look back on it, can we like unwind that a little bit? What's that about now that you look back on it

now it's it's not nearly as intimidating as I made it in my mind. I think because you get so comfortable being a certain way and having these certain viewpoints about yourself and the talk that's in your own head, that changing that is really kind of overwhelming, because it means you're going to be different. You're going to evolve differently, and who will you be once you get there. So now I think it kind of continues to evolve. Really. It's not about getting there and being this person. It's about continuing to, you know, take on new challenges and be be willing to take the change. It's not, it's not nearly as scary as I had made it, but I was definitely afraid that I might actually succeed, and then who would I be? Who would I be?

Yeah, and you know that right there. I'm so glad you said that, because I think it's so common. I hear it often from women in my community and my clients, and it's like I almost wonder if it's just good old self preservation, if it's the ego, keeping us small, keeping us safe. And I also wonder, if you've ever heard that idea that the body doesn't really know the difference between fear and excitement, or anxiety and excitement. And sometimes I wonder for my clients, if that fear they have, oh my gosh. What if I succeed? Sometimes I wonder if we think it's fear, it's actually excitement. Because how exciting is that? What if I succeed? And you did, and it's amazing, right? And it's so common, and I think that wherever that experience comes from, it's enough to. Stop people and hold people back and think, ooh, it feels scary, so I'm not going to do anything. And even more powerful that you've had this transformation. Because I don't think I knew that so much about you. I remember it now from early on in the program, because now it's so many months ago, but it's huge, because, would you trade it for anything in the world?

No, I really, I really wouldn't, because I wanted it in my heart. I wanted that to happen for me, but my head was thinking that, you know, telling me, you know, what's going to happen when you get there? Who are you going to be? What are people going to say? You know, you just my mindset. It was a big piece of this for me,

huge and I think for some people too, you also need to see signs of progress, to nurture your mindset to change, right? It's like I do believe our conscious mind needs proof in order to further believe. And thankfully, you were getting that every single two weeks, we would see it. So again, for those of you listening, every two weeks, we have a very specific protocol for assessing progress. And so every two weeks, Karen was getting great feedback. And so that just encourages you more and more. Would you agree that was your experience?

Yeah, I would agree. And there were things that, you know, because we're all our own worst critics, you know, I would look at these pictures and just think to myself, Oh, clearly you're not winning, you know, but you would see things differently because you're looking at them more objectively,

yeah, and it's so funny, because it's like you actually did win full on one wild all along you're like, you're not winning. Oh yes, you are. You officially won and deserved it 100% which is so huge. So what would you say were the biggest diet changes that helped in this transformation?

Biggest diet changes for me, truly came from the balancing macros that was the missing piece, and obviously logging food, because if you're logging then you can tell where your macros are and whatnot. But that was huge for me, even though there were some stumbling blocks and learning how to do that, actually doing it was just the missing piece, like I said, it just put everything into perspective for me that I was eating too much fat or not enough carbs or whatever, and I had that always in front of me. So once I mastered that, I felt really confident that I could do this. So that was the that was the single most important thing was my was my diet and making sure that was balanced every day and every meal

Would you say your diet was restrictive,

not at all. I felt free. I felt free. I didn't I wasn't doing things like eating powdered food and doing you know, I was been on so many different things, but I felt like I could have what I wanted. I had to manage it and monitor it and then balance it it. But again, it wasn't that hard

Tell me some of the foods that you, quote, unquote, like allowed and you could have, if you wanted to that someone might say, that's not a diet forward food. What were some things that you ate that were in there while you still got results?

I would say, you know, white potatoes, white rice, brown rice. Had a lot of that honey. I enjoyed honey on different things from time to time. Like I said, I really felt free. I mean, there were times that I know you're not gonna hear this, but you know, I'd have, like, healthy chicken nuggets, and you know, I didn't eat the bag of 'em. I mean, I never was there. I never was that bad, but you know, I could have that, and I allowed myself that freedom, so that I wasn't deprived and just didn't hate what I was doing.

That's exactly what I want to hear, right? Because it's like I want people to know, was there pizza in your diet at all over those five months?

Yes,

was there alcohol in your diet

here and there, but drastically, drastically cut back. Yes, but I did. I did have wine. I did have a cocktail once in a while. Yes.

How about were there any sweet type desserts in there in those five months,

here and there? Yes, but that was never really my, my vice. So that was a lot easier to give up in social situations. Was cake and that kind of thing. It was a little harder for me to go to a wedding and not have a glass of wine. But, you know, I managed to do that, and just took that into account so I could enjoy a glass or two of wine that night because I had already accounted for it earlier in the day.

Yeah, powerful. And what I really do want to drive home here is that you can have wine or sweets or whatever and make progress. I also want to drive home and underscore the fact that Karen intentionally did avoid alcohol, and I would argue that is a piece of your success. Do you agree?

Yeah, I would agree with that. It made getting up early a lot easier. I mean, obviously I'm not drinking. I didn't drink during the week anyway, but you know, if you're getting. Up early to work out on a Saturday and you're waking up and you have the slightest headache, you know, the chances are that's not happening for you. And I got to the point where I just didn't want to feel like that, yeah, I didn't want that brain fog and feeling like I, you know, now I have to work out. Oh, that's going to be a successful workout. It just wasn't worth it to me.

It's so much better to feel good than to have the food that feels good in the moment, right? And once you start to experience that and actually feel good for the first time, I find it sort of just naturally changes people's desires for those foods that we think we don't want to give up, like alcohol or sweets or whatever it may be.

But the best part was, though, it wasn't forbidden, it wasn't like, I couldn't do it. And then that was sort of that, that change for me. It's like, okay, you can make that choice. It wasn't that you can't have alcohol.

No, it's true. You can have the chicken nuggets, right and right? That really is the truth is that a person doesn't have to be, as I say, a sweet angel with their diet to get great results. If you do follow my diet programming to a T, you're gonna not recognize yourself in six months. And in some ways, that was the experience Karen had. But I would even argue she wasn't perfect to the program at all. Where you weren't perfect was simply because you were learning and you were developing skills. And, you know, had you known, you might have been quote, unquote more perfect. But the fact is, like, even there you weren't, like, crossing your T's and dotting your eyes absolutely perfectly, following the program to a T, and you still got, like, ridiculously amazing, incredible results. Yeah, I agree. What was the hardest part of the journey for you?

The hardest part for me, at least in the beginning, was just taking those progress photos. And I know that might sound really ridiculous, but standing there, you know, with a tripod, and just looking at myself and wishing I looked differently because I'm standing in front of a camera taking pictures of myself and just sending it off somewhere to be evaluated. Just seems so unnatural for me. I would never do that.

Oh, it's terrible. I totally I hear you when you look at it that way, it really is. It's very uncomfortable for most people, absolutely and it serves so many purposes. And so there's a reason why we do it, certainly not to make you feel or make a person feel emotionally uncomfortable. It really does serve a purpose. And so now, do you have a different relationship with that? Are you like, I don't care. I'll take my pictures.

I feel like I've a lot of people have seen them, and I mean, I wouldn't want them going around at my job or anything. But, I mean, I don't feel as bad about it. It's just, you know, it was just part of what I needed to do in order to get there, because I had to be super uncomfortable, and I was super uncomfortable, so being uncomfortable made me want to change that more and more every time I took them, because maybe one day I wouldn't hate them.

Ding, ding, ding, you nailed it. And I would say the discomfort wasn't just taking a photo of yourself in a bathing suit, because your bathing suits are cute, by the way. It's more the judgment a person has about what they're seeing in the photo. That's the discomfort. It's the judgment of yourself. It's the dissatisfaction and disappointment of when you're judging what you see, right? And so I hope that people just stop judging themselves on what they see, because that's not the point of the Progress vote is. It's so that we can make sure you're getting safe and healthy, appropriate progress. But that's a big part of it, right?

There's a big part of it. That was a huge part of it for me, yeah,

what is your most favorite strength exercise?

Um, I mean, I like a lot of them because I like I said, I do enjoy the strength training. I do like lat pull downs a lot. I like those. They feel good. I feel like they make my back look strong, and I get that nice sort of V taper. But I don't know that I have a favorite. I have strong legs. I can do walking lunges all day. You know, I feel pretty gifted that I have a lot of things that that work for me, that aren't too terribly hard.

What's your least favorite exercise?

My least favorite is the Bulgarian split squat. Just super hard for me, I feel like I challenge. I try so hard to stay balanced that I lose the sight of the, you know, the exercise, because it's just putting all those nuances together. So no matter how strong I think I am, when I get there, it's like I have new legs. It's like I've never used them before. So it's really a challenge for me.

It's a hard exercise for everyone. And as I always say, the hardest exercises, the ones you hate the most, are the ones that are going to transform your body the most, I promise, and I know for you, with our goals here in the future, going forward, I know this is going to be a big one as we really nail your technique, it's going to be huge for you. What exercise do you think was the most helpful for you, that made the most difference, that brought. The most benefit for you.

You know, I never was a bench presser, per se. I was never somebody that thought that was going to be something that made me feel good, but that made me feel good in my core, that made my shoulders feel great, that I felt it in my back, I just felt like I learned that, and really got to enjoy that and the benefits that that's given me. I just felt very strong doing that exercise.

Agreed. I love bench press, and a lot of women avoid it. A lot of women think of it as a man's exercise, but it really is the most important upper body pushing exercise. And I agree, if there's a woman out there listening now who is in the struggle, who has some health aspects she wants to overcome, or some body composition changes she wishes to make, and maybe she's feeling doubtful or reluctant or intimidated. What advice would you offer her?

I would say the most important thing is to just stop sitting on the sidelines and waiting for it to get better or hoping it gets better. Figure out what you need to do or where you need to go. Get a plan in place. Get the right plan in place. If the plan you're doing doesn't work, get another plan. And then the biggest thing too is the consistency. So then be consistent with that plan and just go one day at a time, instead of looking at this like, oh, I have all these months and I have this daunting task, because then that's when your head takes over and you convince yourself that you absolutely can't do it, but you really do have the power within yourself, and at the end, it's really worth it,

one step at a time, one day at a time, focusing on the task at hand. I so agree. Karen, thank you so much for joining me. This has been a great conversation. Is there anything else you'd like to add?

Thanks for having me, Holly, it's been a pleasure working with you.

Incredible story, right? Thank you so much for listening, and I hope that you are as inspired by Karen's story as I was. You can eliminate the aches pains and injuries that impact your life. If you're struggling to find someone to help you, you can always find me at contact, at Holly perkins.com I hope you love this episode and stay tuned for another brand new one on Tuesday of next week. Stay strong, my friend.