In the booth with me this week is the one and only Ercole Perrone (say it with a thick Italian accent or you’re doing this glorious name (and man) a disservice). This conversation was so good – it centered around the theme of being a better listener, leading and taking care of others with great empathy, and being a good human who stands up for other humans and has compassion for the mental health and personal growth of others. Whether it’s in the mentoring space, the DEI space, or the mental health space – we need to serve and take care of our fellow beings. And ultimately, we need to ask better questions and actually listen – which is what we’re all about here in the diner. This episode has a lot of heart and I can’t wait for you to tune in!

About the Guest: 

Ercole is a consultant and advisor to senior managers of non-profit organizations and mid-sized companies, specializing in higher education. Ercole has fifteen years of senior management experience in roles that have spanned both industry associations and public sector organizations as a social impact executive. His range of professional and volunteer experiences includes working with youth, charities, various levels of government and in academia.

Currently, Ercole is the CEO of IGNITE Student Union, leading one of the largest student unions in Canada through significant and transformative change during the most challenging time in postsecondary education history.

Ercole lives with his amazing wife, three wonderful kids and a mischievous dog in Oakville, Ontario.

Fun Facts: My favourite socks have a picture of my wife's face on them; I am a master campfire maker; and I love fig jam.

 Connect with Ercole and learn more:

Twitter: @ErcoleDPerrone

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ercoleperrone

About the Host: 

Friends! Here's a somewhat stuffy bio of me:  

I am an author, professional speaker, coach, host, and entrepreneur. My first book, Leading Imperfectly: The value of being authentic for leaders, professionals, and human beings, is available wherever people buy books. I speak internationally to willing and unwilling attendees about authenticity, vulnerability, and leadership. My clients include American Express, General Electric (GE), Accenture, Yale University, The Ohio State University, and many others. As a speaker, I am doing the two things I loves the most: making people think and making people laugh! 

I host my own events multiple times a year. They are 2-day events called Living Imperfectly Live (and sometimes they are 1-day virtual events). They are a space where humans from every walk of life can come together to be part of a community on the pursuit of badassery. The goal is to help attendees start living the life we say we want to live.

Alas, you're here because of an idea I had a number of years ago and didn't think I was good enough to pull it off. I finally acted on it and alas Diner Talks with James was born! As you can see from what I do in my professional life, Diner Talks is alligned with everything I believe in and teach.  If this wasn't dry enough, and you would like to know more info about my speaking, events, or coaching feel free to check out my website: JamesTRobo.com.

Let’s Be Friends on Social Media!

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jamestrobo

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jamestrobo

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesrobilotta/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/JamesRobilottaCSP

Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/JamesTRobo

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Welcome to Diner Talks with James, slide into the booth and let's have conversations we never want to end with friends. We never want to leave over food we probably shouldn't be eating.

My friends what is going on? Welcome to another episode of diner talks with James. I'm James and I am super pumped to be here with you all kicking it, how you doing today, my friends. It's starting to get a little crispy outside and I'm a big man. So I appreciate it because your boy looks good and layers you know, I'm talking about hope you're out here seeing some beautiful leaves if you live by a place where the leaves change. And if you don't, must be nice go sipping Mai Tais on the beach and rubbing in our faces on Instagram. Either way, friends, I'm excited that you are here with us right now. I have a guest today that I have known for a number of years. And I'm really excited to have him on the show. He's one of these people that has believed in me. Since before I think I believed in myself. And at times that's been uncomfortable. And at times, it's been really humbling and most of the time so it's been really beautiful. And so I'm just grateful because when I got started my speaking career I got I was able to speak at Humber College in Toronto, Ontario, and and this man and I kicked it off and not just because we're both Italian alright, but watch your mouth anyway. But let me tell you about him. Erica les Peroni. So I'm gonna say it one more time was so fun. Erica let Peroni Okay, he's an accomplished social impact executive with expertise in governance and strategic management. He is the CEO of Ignite at Humber College and over in Guelph as well. He's a solutions focused thinker with excellent foresight and judgment to directly strategize to direct strategy and affect meaningful change, leading to improved business performance, organizational effectiveness and social impact. He's a huge Equity, Diversity and Inclusion advocate, an ally, a natural leader, a relationship builder, and a collaborator. He is a great man with a great laugh and a great presence. I'm excited for you to meet my man. Ercole Perrone.

Hey, how's it going? James? What's on my guy? Coming to you from the north brother. How you doing?

Yeah, we the north up there. Nothing's going in Toronto.

These are good. These are good. Starting to get hurt your intro starting to get a little crisp out here too. But leaves are changing. And so it's nice.

That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Now, you know this is called it's called diner talks with James as you know, my friend. And so I like to I would like to start off the episodes by by learning. What is a favorite late night? Guilty pleasure foo what's your what's your move late at night? Erica, do you know? Is there something obviously you're in the land of poaching, and which is an outrageous product. But I'm wondering where do you go late at night if you're able to what do you eat?

I am. I am a French toast connoisseur man. Whoa. brioche bread challah bread. You name it this if it's French toast. I'm showing up I'm sure. And if I'm feeling if I'm feeling particularly hungry might even go for like a side order of corned beef hash.

You go yes. I get the corned beef hash. Well done right a little crisp on That's right.

That's right. Can't be wet.

Can't come out here. Fresh toast is incredibly you know I talk a lot about pancakes because I have a very particular way that a pancakes but french toast is an outrageous product in New York. It's pretty much only on the hollow bread and that thick style and but yeah, a great brioche I'm here for it. I also recently had someone cut a cinnamon bun in half, and then dip it in French toast batter and put it on a griddle. And I thought about marrying that person but I was

worth giving it a try. You can't say no to that.

That's awesome. That's awesome.

What are you? Are you are you rocking a grilled cheese sandwich with bacon today? Are you doing a stack of pancakes?

That's it that's a tough call. You know it's always an in the moment decision. Sometimes I'll have the server make the decision for me and be like What do I look like today? Do I look like a guy who's holding the grilled cheese or look like you guys got into a stack of pancakes. Yeah. And you know anything to make them laugh because sometimes they'll give me a free chocolate milk. So

I gotta go with coffee, man. I gotta I gotta get that diner coffee.

Your coffee. Yeah. Now here's the thing as someone with such deep Italian roots. Coffee is something that I would assume that you are particular about or have you dropped your standards from your across the pond family heritage?

No, no, I'm definitely a coffee drinker. You know Use what is what's the health thing to do drink eight liters of water a day. I took out water and I added I added coffee. Yeah, a lot of grass. So just regular good old fashioned drip. It's all good. Coffee. I like it.

My wife Tina, her favorite dessert is an avocado. Right. So on top of the vanilla vanilla ice cream. Yeah, that term was That's how she gets coffee at night.

I'm not I'm not bougie so I don't I don't go there. Oh, he's not

right. Love it. I can't wait to go Tina bougie. I'm gonna tell you said that.

Yeah, I have been known to add a little little Bailey's to the coffee on a rough night.

Oh, sure. Yeah, you've earned it. You've earned it. Well, I'm super stoked to be talking to you, brother. You are a first generation Canadian. Your family is your family's from Italy. Both your parents are mentally everybody. You are. You are are you 100% Italian?

Yeah, both. Why say I'm 100% Canadian because I was born in Canada. Okay, right. So I'm Canadian all the way my parents were born in Italy. And so I obviously grew up in that culture and it oozes in and out of me, but I'm Canadian. I'm a proud Canadian.

Yeah, that's beautiful. That's beautiful. With with parents from Italy in the household growing up, did they speak English? Or were they have they had to become fluent in English and or French right in Ontario? I know you can kind of get away with both.

Yeah, both my parents both spoke English fluently. My dad pretty pretty, you know? Straightforward. Just like two of us. You know? No, no hint of of a major accent. My mom still had a bit of an accent. They spoke you know, they spoke Italian to each other. On and Off Italian to me and my sister but primarily English. Not either my grandparents spoke a lick of English. So we we had to make do we had to? We had to fight for attention with none. No, no by speaking eyes. Good Italian as you could.

Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome. What is being Italian means you were gonna come back to the back of your percent Canadian dollar. I'm not trying to ignore that. But it was it was it was an important sentence that you shared. But what does? What is it about being Italian that you love? What do you know? Well, there are parts of the heritage that you're super proud of? Is there is there is there an attitude? Is there a you know like, what what is it about being Italian that you you know that you're like I can I'm Italian? Look at my name.

Yeah, I mean, obviously the food right? Like you can't you can't knock the the emphasis on, on cuisine when it comes to Italian culture, Italian heritage. You know what I you know, it's a fair question. I'm not trying to dodge it. But like I, in the absence of experiencing another culture the same way I've experienced the Italian culture. I don't I can't tell you what I like about being Italian. Being Italian Canadian, more than than any other. Right? Like, I think we'd all have their, you know, big family values. But I don't think those are unique to the Italian culture. There's just a sense of responsibility and hard work, but I don't I don't think that that's unique to being Italian. So I'll stick with the food. We can't Can't go wrong there. The language sounds is is obviously amazing. You know, my girls growing up, I gotta tell you, when I was growing up, I couldn't get enough of the, you know, the mobster movies and I thought, like, you know, that looked good that that sounded like a lifestyle that suit me. You know, and then you start to realize just what the implications of that lifestyle are. And you, you know, you move away from it.

Yep, sure, sure.

For those of you that don't either, and you know what I'm talking about,

you know, I'm talking about kiss the finger. kiss the ring. Yeah. Hide the gun. Take the cannoli. So it's, uh, yeah, no, that's beautiful. Man, as beautiful you I watched a show recently, where I'm, I'm a I'm a big car guy. And, and so I've always there hasn't been a moment in my life that I can remember that didn't have photos of Italian cars on my wall. And so having getting to go to Italy and actually, you know, tour in the factories in and the beautiful bologna region. It's, it's really, it was incredible to do it. And also the show that I watched recently, where they were, they were riding around in a Lamborghini in Rome. And, and there are people taking their cameras out and taking photos and the guy said, he said, the guy who was riding He said, These people are not taking photos of me because I'm driving an outlandish car. These people are taking photos photos of me because they're proud of this. And like this is they're just proud of their heritage proud of this is a product that can look at look what we created. That's right. Right. And that we mentality now is really is really beautiful and Italian culture. And I appreciated that.

Yeah. No, I know what you mean, I know you're my wife is just a quick deviation. My wife is was born in Argentina. Okay. And then immigrated to Canada. And, you know, when we when we have conversations about culture and what have you, you know, she, she, she expresses this way better than I will. But you know, Italy being such a small country, you know, size wise, has produced its culture to an extent that it's, you know, all over the world. Yeah. So that that pride that you're talking about, is connected to that, right?

Yeah, no, 100% Yeah, Italy has done a great job. I think there's a lot of other especially here in the United States. I think a lot of other cultures look to the way Italy has figured out a way to do it to be like, Man, how can we how can we be the next Italian food or the neck? Right? Whatever. Right? Yeah. It's fascinating. And there's also we can probably get into the deep social justice side of how that worked and how Italy was able to do that maybe compared to some other cultures. For sure, but it's not to say that Italians have always had it easy on this side of the pond either. So for sure, for sure. But you are you are you're 100% Canadian Canada Canada's what you know, and I know you are I know you're a Raptors fan. Or at least at least fan as well. You go you all the sports.

I'm okay with hockey. I'm okay with hockey is it's it's definitely all about the Raptors.

Yeah, you and Drake sitting courtside. dapping each other up for the game. Love it. That's awesome. So what's the work that you do today in working with empowering university students and whatnot. That's, that's not something that anybody is born saying, You know what I want to do one day, right? Like none of us who got into work with with college university students knew that we wanted to do that when we were younger. So I want you to take take me back, you know, take me back to the younger days when you know your dad was talking to your mom is talking about the slight Italian accent? What is what is young airclad? Want to be? What is What are you excited about being when you were younger?

I gotta say things like I was I was all over the map, right? I was big into baseball. And I was a kid. Thought about being a baseball player actually had a tryout with the Toronto Blue Jays. At one stage in my my early teens who didn't even know what this meant. But I thought being an engineer sounded like something that I'd want to do. Couldn't tell you exactly at the time, what an engineer did. And I found out there was a lot of math involved and I politely bowed out. Yeah. I like movies. And so I was into the idea of being an actor, like you name it, I you know, I didn't have a goal. I didn't have a plan in place. I actually started, you know, university. With an undeclared major, I had no, no real sense of what that adult life was supposed to look like, I just knew that, you know, my parents and my grandparents worked hard to give me these opportunities. And so I had to go to post secondary, like, it wasn't an option. The only problem is I didn't know what I wanted to be. And it was it was while I was at school that I started to get a little bit of an interest in politics. On campus politics, obviously, for those of you that, you know, understand campus life and Student Affairs world, like on campus politics is big. And it just sort of evolves, right, I gotta, I gotta be honest, my my luck is good. And what I mean by that is, I feel very fortunate to be in the in the role that I that I have, to your point was like, It's not by design, I kind of got lucky and series of events got me to where I am today. And I take that as, as I take that with a degree of responsibility to do for others, because to an extent, I don't know how much I earned all of this along the way as much as I was just at the right place at the right time sometimes.

Yeah, yeah. Which is also not your fault, right. But yeah, you were there. Yeah. And I love that. I love the idea that you're trying to give it to others because, obviously, we can't make somebody else lucky. But sometimes we can give people opportunities that then they later be on podcast 20 years later and be like, Yeah, I got lucky. Because some guys saw this in me and here we go. Right. I definitely would consider myself lucky for that reason and getting into when I got into higher ed in the beginning. Now because I had a supervisor that when I was flailing and had a very mediocre GPA with my marine biology degree and realized I don't want to do marine biology the rest of my life, my supervisor, Michelle pulled me aside, but another guy named Larry, both pulled me aside. So why don't you go into this field, at least for a little bit, you know, you're not gonna hurt anything doesn't close any doors. If anything, it opens some more, because you'll be working at a university. So you could maybe decide what you want to do. But it's not this, you can get a master's degree for free and go off in the direction you want to, but not closing any doors. Maybe you're delaying some, but you don't know what you want to do. Anyway. So last summer, you know, you're good at.

It's amazing to me how many people I meet students included that didn't that don't even know that the roles that we had or occupy or even the thing? Yeah, I mean, like, you mean, you can do that for a living?

Yeah, you get paid to do this. Yeah. A volunteer position. You think I would deal with you for free? And we would sometimes some of them are worth it. But yeah, yeah, I completely agree. So I'm wondering, you know, back in your childhood, kind of being somewhat directionless, but I mean, maybe it doesn't sound like your direction was it sounds like you had intermingling passions and or a Start Stop mentality? You know, however you would put it, but I'm wondering for your family, was that something that they were totally fine with? Right? Was your family just a total? Like, just follow your heart, my son, right? Or were they kind of like, Alright, what's this kid doing? He's wasting time here. We got, you know, we didn't come over here for nothing. Yeah, no,

it's definitely the latter. I don't know how common of a, you know, immigrant experience this is, but at the very least, was mine, where you had, you had a bit of a push and pull between sort of the old way and the new way, or the old world in the new world. Right. Like, you know, traditions were embedded in everything that we did. There were expectations on how you were to be, there were ideas of what a good life for, for me and my family were supposed to look like. But they were all definitely rooted in those, you know, traditional Italian values, right, that my parents and grandparents brought over. Meanwhile, you're here and you know, Western democracy, different culture, different opportunities, right. And you're trying to find your place, right? Like my grandfather was, was great with his hands. I am not right, that's, you know, there, there were these these experiences, I don't know how purposeful they were. But there were these experiences whereby, you know, as a kid, you know, being impressionable. Am I supposed to follow in that footsteps? And am I supposed to learn the skill trade? Am I you know, is? Is that an honorable profession? Or do they want me to be a professional? Do they want me to be a doctor? Do they want me to be a lawyer, I had no interest in being either one of those those things, right. And so, you know, to the extent that, you know, my parents did, they provided direction, they provided options, but it was a bit of a, you got to figure this out. You're not going to live here forever. Um, you know, you got to figure this out there was, you know, go become a teacher, you're gonna get a pension, you'll work there forever. And you'll, you'll have job security and that, and that's big, you know, for, you know, for an immigrant family. But there was, you know, now, now the term is used, but back then I'm not sure how often that term is used with this idea of being entrepreneurial. Right, wanting to do things that haven't been done before that are different or you know, be your own boss. And that was looked upon with you know, a degree of skepticism, right. Like, that's not safe. That's too risky. Think about your, your future wife. I'm 15 Like, what are you asking me to think about? And so yeah, I guess it was it was definitely not, you know, Follow Follow your dreams, my son. Yeah, but it definitely, you know, alternatively, it wasn't you know, you got to do this and this is how you got to do it. Find that that happy medium, and I had to figure it out on my own.

You have for sure. Yeah, but that was fascinating. And I would also assume each of your parents probably felt that differently or showed that differently taught you that differently. What's your relationship like with your folks? Are you closer with your dad or your mom? Are you like, you know, growing up was there? Was there one that you could go to if you wanted to get a yes, and the other one was gonna shoot you down. So it's like if I wanted to Yeah, as dad or

so I in case they ever watch or listen, let me start off by saying I love my parents. I'll repeat it for emphasis. I love my parents. Openness is not something that I would say, is a hallmark of our of our family. And I'll extend it to our broader family, right. Communication is something that I think generally speaking, we all struggle with. Yeah, we know, when we're mad at each other. That's the easy part. Yeah, um, but they're there. I gotta be honest, like, there weren't a lot of, you know, heart to heart conversations. And, you know, Son, let me sit you down and talk to you about what life is gonna be like. So, you know, my parents were present, they the, you know, showed their love for for me and my sister. Not so much in terms of, you know, the, the words or the hugs, but in but in being providers, and I think that, you know,

acts of service, right, like, Gary, yeah,

you know, I

love languages kind of thing. Yeah.

Yeah, not not to diminish, you know, them as parents in any way, shape, or form or some, but they, they, I'm going to assume that they felt that they had a job to do, and that was to set the table up for me and, and my future family in such a way that, you know, maybe it was a little bit on the, on the rigid side or on the cold side, but they didn't, it was too important for them not to fail, and, you know, being soft, and maybe, you know, me growing up being soft, or overly sensitive was something that I think the they worried about me being eaten up by society, because they were new, and they didn't necessarily have they had a, I would say, a healthy mistrust for Canadian institutions. Right, you know, we do it, this is how they do it, and for you to be accepted and for you to be successful. You know, let's just keep our heads down and just do good work. And I think that, that made them act as parents in a different way than maybe not, maybe I know, definitely. I am with with my kids, right.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that makes it makes a lot of sense, even though it's obviously completely different than than my experience. But I've heard other immigrants speak about it in that way. And I think it of course, it there has to be some some there's got to be you got to be coming in with some skepticism. Obviously, you wouldn't be here if there wasn't hope involved. Right. But now that you're here, now that you're here, it's kind of like well, alright, but like, you know, are you going to somebody else gonna ruin this for me? Is someone else gonna? What are you going to? How are you gonna affect my family? How are you gonna write like, are you gonna? Are you gonna love us? Yeah, right. Are you gonna believe in us, you're gonna give us you know, opportunities, even if we are X, Y, or Z. Right? Like, yeah, I

think too much too much to lose, right? Like, my mom left her, her her mother, her two brothers and sisters to come here. Yeah. And so, you know, she couldn't risk all that, you know, not being worth a successful life for for me and my sister. And that meant being, you know, tough and rigid and, and having high expectations of what it was like to grow up, then I think they made that calculation that that that was important. And that's one of those things that you know, you might not thank me now, but you thank me later, is, you know, those proverbial lessons that you learned as a as an adult, when you look back at your parents, you'd be like, Okay, I may not have liked it, but I understand where they were going with this. I would have done it a little different, but I get I get I get why it was what it was, you know,

I see you. Maybe but I love that. I love it. That's that's the kind of statement that you can only say with age and wisdom. And knowing what you know now, right? And the moment in the moment, I'm sure you were like, Why mom dead, right. I mean, I hopefully didn't talk to him like I did. But But still, but yeah, like in the moment you don't understand it, right? It's like uh, you know, you'll you'll understand when you're older kid kind of thing is the most frustrating thing to understand or hear. But yet now that we're at this age, you're like, Man crap, they were right.

I better pick up the phone and say, Yeah,

I would have never got you. If you try to explain to me what I know now I would have never understood so yeah,

yeah. Any any of that resonate with you or not so much because from what I remember your your parents were born in the US.

Yeah, both born Yeah. Both born in the US. My I believe my mom is 30 Generation Irish American I think I think my I think her grandparents parents, my great great grandparents I believe came here from Ireland on her side. And then similar for my my family, my father's side from Italy now for like the Potenza region of Italy is where they came from. And so, yeah, so I think and also, I'm the third kid, I'm the baby. They had me like, nine years after my middle brother. And, and there was some some part of it that I think they're just like, I don't know, we got other things to do with our life at this point. So you figure yours out. Right? That's not to say them. I mean, my parents were they I definitely based on what I've been told about the way that they handled my brothers and the way they handled me triggered my oldest brother. Right, I had the easy streak. And I like to tell them, it's because I'm a flawless individual. grateful for everything that was given to me. So you know, I mean, come on. Naturally, that wasn't actually the case. But But I think there was some of it, where it's like, they trusted me. Because a they realize the other dude, and the other two didn't do a lot of damage and and figure it out. And at some point in time, you also realize it's out of your control. But also, I think I was a good kid, right? I didn't. Not to say that any of this would make someone a bad kid. But I think it makes it easier, right? I didn't drink. I didn't partying. I wasn't I wasn't doing drugs. I was, I was a theater nerd. Right? Like, it wasn't, it wasn't much that was going on. Like I wanted to stay out late. So we can make up scenes with friends. Right? Like, I mean, like, wasn't anything crazy. And so yeah, my parents very much were, you know, go go where you want. At the same time, they could tell that there were things that I was interested in. And so you know, I wanted to be marine biology. And they knew that I had a passion because whenever I went to the library, I take out books on fish and things like that. Whenever I brought them drawings from school, there were whales and hammerhead sharks, right. And so, so, you know, my parents cultivated that, like, we watched a lot of discovery channel a lot of Jacques Cousteau a lot, all that kind of stuff. My dad also knew that I was funny, and knew that I love the humorous roles, and I was getting in theater. And he said, Well, I want I want you to learn more about the history of comedy. And so, you know, that's Friday, Friday nights, we're watching Abbott and Costello were watching the Marx Brothers. We're watching. You know, Sid Caesar, we're watching like, a lot of the old school and three stooges. Of course, the Muppets, right. And it's like, you know, I want you to watch some of this and watch Rodney Dangerfield. I was like, maybe, maybe I want to do comedy. Right? And so, yeah, so there was that, but for the most part, it was, you know, kind of see where you go.

Yeah, but that's amazing. Like, clearly, clearly, you got, um, you know, friends of friends of mine who grew up in the same way that I did, we like to say that, you know, sometimes we didn't get the push, you know what I mean? And it sounds like your parents invested in that, that they gave you the push took an interest in what you were interested in, and provided you opportunities to explore that in a safe way. And clearly, it's worked. So hats off to mama Papa Robo on that.

I think I think they knew I was kind of like a cat, right? We're gonna figure it out. I'll probably land on my feet. When I look pretty on the fall, but you know, we'll stick the landing. Right? I think that's also, let's be honest, man. That's, that's also a privilege, right? Like, yeah, there was no, they didn't necessarily have reason to worry more than any other parent, more than any other parent of a privileged, you know, background has to worry, right, we lived in a very safe town. We lived in, we grew up with more than enough. Like I said, I wasn't a bad kid. And yeah, I think I think there was some of it, where it's just, they just didn't have, they didn't have to worry, right? They didn't have to give up a lot to have me or anything like that. And so, so I think there was there was some of that, that it was coming from, there wasn't necessarily this chip on their shoulder. Whereas my brothers, you know, my parents were in a very different financial situation when my brothers were born, they're nine and 11 years older than me. So, you know, I know that I was afforded way more opportunities than my brothers were. And if I didn't know, my brothers would constantly remind me so now I know, now, but you know, so but there's definitely there's some, there's some privilege in there as well, in the way that I grew up, that enabled me and enabled my parents to maybe have a little bit more trust or a little bit more flexibility.

Yeah, no, I can see that. And the fact that you mentioned that your three three boys, I you know, that that connects with me in the sense that I recognize that as a as a boy, I was afforded a little bit more latitude, right? I could there are certain mistakes that I could make that that I don't think we're you know, would have been applicable to my sister or my, my female cousins as an example really, as the guy you know, there's a little bit of that, you know, he's gonna do what he's gonna do you know, I'm right or wrong. You know, at the time, but that that was a bit of the I guess that was a bit of the the the impression that was given right, like a little bit more latitude for you because you're a boy whether, you know, and I think Luckily I didn't I didn't, I didn't take any wrong turns with that with that space.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. That's great to hear. And I'm sure I mean, I'm sure there are times where I don't, I can list away a bunch of times where I put my foot in my mouth. And I know, you could probably rattle off some as well. But fortunately, nothing too egregious that we can't do what we love to do now. We can do now they're, they're important stories that we share with others, and whatnot. Which is, which is incredible, because that's, that's the work that you get to do right now, who is someone who gets to work with students, and I mean, you watch your students step in shit all day long. But that's the beauty of of higher education is that in some ways, it's a leadership residency, it's a light residency, right? Where you, you have this amazing team of staff that is there to help you serve you, and guide you. But at the same time, they're also there to take their hands off, right? I remember whenever I was interviewing for, for jobs in higher ed, I always used to say, I was like, I think my role is kind of like the bumpers in bumper bowling, right? Where it's like, it's my job to make sure you don't get too crazy, or don't get into this or to that, right, like, but at the same time, I'm it's not my job to make sure you get a strike every single time. Right? Like, you know, if you just get one pin down, then yeah, then well, let's talk about it. Right? How do we, you know, how can we get more pins down next time, but I'm not going to let you drop into a pit of despair. I'm going to try my hardest not to. And, and that's the life that you chose, as well, or occupation? I would say that you chose and I'm wondering, what was it about working with university students that made you I don't know, that kind of even apply for the job initially, way back when we started working at Humber, and what, where do you Where are you today with your relationship with working with university students.

Um, I mean, I like that leading because, you know, the way he talks about the bumper cars. So I worked with, with both college and university students, and you know, for our American friends was a bit of a distinction up here in Canada, college students generally are in post secondary education for, you know, two years, maybe three. But progressively, you know, they're adding that that fourth year, like an undergrad, and then obviously, university students are definitely for four years with us. So with that, if you're in a constant, constant change, or you're, you're never dealing with the same type of personality or student over the course of a year, and so it always, it always has a way of staying fresh, right, the issues are always the same, right? Students trying to balance their studies, their time with their friends and family trying to learn either a skill or discipline to get a job. Paying for housing is expensive. traveling to school is expensive, you know, time money, stress, always, always on the student's mind. And generally speaking, that's what holds us back from being successful as, as an academic, you know, being but working with those students every year and trying to solve those problems in creative and unique ways. It's, it's tough to get bored, right? Like, I'm, I'm super grateful for the experience that I've had here at at Ignite. We've done a lot a lot of cool things and cutting edge things that I think have have have, whether they realize it or not really set students up to be successful even when they leave. But that that piece about coaching and mentoring is, it's undescribable how you how that feeling you get when you when you make a connection to a student, and then you start to spend more time with them, or they seek you out for advice. And you're like, you want to know what I think about that, like that. That's an awesome feeling. To feel like someone who you just met or recently met, already sees you as someone that they can confide in and seek advice for. We don't have the benefit of time to build trust in a lot of these relationships. I'm not sure if you felt the same way when when you were in those settings, but you know, or you only got them for a short period of time, right? Especially if they're, you know, a designated student leader, whether like a president or a board of director and those are the ones that I deal with the most. You know, they have one year to year at max in these roles. And you gotta you got to cut through the bullshit and get get to the heart of what matters to them and ensure that that fits with what matters to the broader student population because it can't just matter to you and your five friends, it's got to matter to you know, the 33,000 students that that represent us or We represent, I should say, so you got to cut through, you know that that you don't have the benefit of time to, you know, take your four coffees like you, you know, if I do like you, maybe we'll go to the movies like, No, we don't got that time we got, you know, we got a week, two weeks max to figure out if we're going to jive. And if we're going to jive, then we're going to do some cool things. And if we're not, then we're going to spend a year trying to overcome our differences. And, and that's going to come at the expense of the students that we serve. And so I walk into all these scenarios and all these relationships, you know, with, I'm going to trust that you have good intentions, I'm going to trust that what you want to accomplish isn't to sort of define, like, you're just your own legacy, but it's going to have a big impact on the rest of the student body. And you are going to have to trust me that I'm going to steer you in a direction that's going to make you the most successful in the limited amount of time that you have. Might you might hear no from me. But that no is not because I'm afraid of the work. That no is not because, you know, I don't I don't believe in you, or I don't think that you can do this. My my no is probably going to be accompanied with but right? No, but why don't we think about that solution differently. Or the way you frame that problem might not be exactly how, you know that other student or those other group of students see it. So let's take a step back and rethink it. Is it's it's tough to get bored with with that, you know, I mean, yeah.

Especially with a constantly cycling group of people. Yeah, you're constantly learning somebody new. And also the world is changing. There's a lot going on where for sure. You okay, you're kept on your toes, for sure. No doubt. Eric. And I also love the the position that that you that you said that, you know where it's like the way that we say no, I'm good. You're going to hear no, right. Yeah, the way that we say no to each other matters. And it's not that we're saying no to someone's brain. We're just saying no to that particular idea. That's right. The way that we conduct conversation matters a lot. Right? If we if someone comes to us, and we're like, how about that? They're like, how about this? We're like, no, it's a dumbest thing I've ever heard. Have you met the people around here? We tried it last year. It failed. You did

that? Yeah, that right? There is the first one. We've tried it before and it didn't work. Don't never say that. Never say that.

Yes, exactly. Exactly. So instead, the way that we say no matters, because I think the pet peeve of pretty much every human being that I've ever come across with is that no one likes to be made feel made to feel like they're stupid, right? And when you say no to someone that way, it makes them feel stupid, that builds resentment that crushes trust. And right, it absolutely derails any attempt at rapport. But that's why I love the way that you were talking about it is that, you know, you're going to hear no from me. But that know isn't because of X, Y, or Z. It's for these other reasons. And so because of that, I love the way that your brains work in, let us have it keep working that direction. And that was your first idea. I can't wait to hear your second idea. Right. Right. Like that's the thing, as opposed to sometimes you say no to somebody in such a harsh way. You don't get any more their ideas. Yeah, you pop the balloon. So I think that was really powerful. How you shared that?

No, I appreciate that. Like I you know, tons of examples of, you know, student leaders that have come with, you know, ideas or initiatives that they wanted to take on that, you know, maybe they can they can see it at the end, but they didn't even know like that the struggle is and how to how to bridge that gap. But what are the steps in place? And, you know, that's when you roll up your sleeves, and you say, Okay, your idea is good. Let me help you chart that path, and give you the freedom to do it in your own way. Right? You're, you got talent, let's, let's give you some runway, on working this out the way you want, knowing that you talked about, you know, like safety paths or use another analogy, which is like a safety net, like, if you fail, it's not going to hurt, right? Because I'll be here, right? And guess what? Along the way, it's kind of good if you encounter some failures, because you're going to learn from them. Right? If, if, if in my role as as a CEO, I knock out every barrier you're going to face and this is an easy ride from you to point A to point Z and you know, you don't experience a little bit of obstacles or hardship then I did you wrong, I didn't do you a service I didn't do you any favors. But if I allow you to make mistakes in a safe environment where you're going to learn from it, and also recognize that you know, when you when you went right, you should have went left. But you're not worse off for it. But now you have the knowledge of of that, then then I feel better about you reaching that goal or even reaching it 80% of what you thought rather than 100%. But you you know you coasted? Right. You didn't learn anything along the ride. It's not gonna serve you after I

completely agree. Completely agree. And you are someone who's also a parent. Yes, yes, sir. You have two kids, right?

333 Excuse

me, I'm sorry. I'm a great apparently care about to your kids. So thank you, I appreciate that. But this is this is sometimes a difference between parenting versus coaching, mentoring and things like that, where, you know, especially when kids are young, they're, but there is a there's value to the word no. And there's safety in the word know, a lot of times, but, you know, it's fascinating to think about us as I'm entering parenthood now, right. And we're 10 months in now. And so I'm by no means an expert. But I'm wondering for you, when you think about the role that you have with your students, as you just described, compared to the role of who you are as a father, how would you? How would you talk about the difference there?

Well, as you were leading into that question, I wasn't, the first first thing that came to my mind was, it was a similarity, not a not a difference, right? Start down. And that and that would be empathy. Right? Understanding where my, my daughter or my son or my youngest daughter are in that, in that moment, when they're coming to you either asking for something asking to do something, or wanting to or wanting to know something, right, is really no different than how you would apply that very same empathetic lens to a student leader who's, you know, maybe overcoming a little bit of anxiety about asking somebody for help in the first place. So I would, I would say, like, I guess the first thing that came to mind is less than a difference as much as it was similarity in terms of that empathetic idea of recognizing where they are in that moment, and being there for them the way they want you to be there for them. And I think, you know, as someone who gets offered help, or gives help a lot, there's a difference between helping somebody the way they want you to help them and helping somebody the way you think they need to be helped.

And so, you know, thinking about the differences now, I guess it's an approach, I mean, obviously, I'm going to be more more patient and loving with my, with my kids than I would, you know, a college university student. But I think the principles are generally the same James like, just, you know, being respectful for where they are and their mindset. And, again, trying trying to come at it from a place of how am I going to help this person learn from this situation, whether it's my kid or whether it's a student, and and grow from it? You know, I guess that's, that's the, that's the coach in us. Right. And, you know, I think that applies to you as well. And that's the that's the mentoring piece of it. Yeah, I guess, you know, there's, if anything, the difference is that if you if you mess up, it's gonna hurt more. And when it's your when it's your own, then it's, if it's someone who's a student, right?

Yeah. Yeah. 100% I'm glad you brought empathy up, because that's such a powerful tool. And it's sometimes it's not everybody's first gut move. Right? The first gut move is an empathy. Maybe sometimes the first gut move is fix it or devils add Right? Or, or sometimes it is empathy. Right. And, and knowing knowing what your normal first move is, is important. And that's why I just I just wrote down the quote that you said, there's a difference between helping someone the way they want to be held versus helping them the way you think they need. us so really put. So, yeah, yeah, my Yeah, I like I like that outlook. And it makes sense. It's funny sometimes. Sometimes, going back to one thing that you said, sometimes I hold people who are closer to me, not sometimes always, I hold people who are closer to me to higher standards than I hold people that aren't. And because of that, sometimes I'm less patient with them. Where I wish I would be more patient, right. Like, like sometimes I wonder if, you know, back when I was working on a day to day basis on a college campus, there were times when I had a partner at the time who literally told me, I wish you would give me the patients that you gave your students some days. And I was like, damn, I don't ever so true. It was true. I needed to hear it. It sucked to hear. And yeah, but it was it was 100% the truth?

Yeah, you, you you made reference to going into fix it mode. And I get I could definitely say that earlier on in my career, I definitely was, I got a, I'm gonna get this solution for you. Right. And that, you know, with time you recognizes it was wrong, right? Like, not again, going back to what I said earlier, what you're not doing them any favors in that way.

So

sitting with that discomfort, I think is important. Being Human about it, and saying to someone who's obviously seeing us as someone to support them, and advise them and be there for him in that, you know, kind of wild wisdom type manner, that if you just come across and shoot him an answer and just go do this, right, you're you're you're kind of setting the stage for them to think well, I, I can't operate that like that. And so you're, you're, you're kind of holding them back twice, almost right. But if you can sit with them and say, Listen, I don't know the answer to this, either. But I think the two of us are smart enough to figure it out a small amount, right? Or better yet. I'm the wrong person. This is super hard for anybody to do. But I'm the wrong person to help you with this. Why don't you go talk to so and so. She's got this, she'll know exactly how to guide you along this path. She's better at it than me that talk about how about learning in a moment like that saying to somebody I just don't know. And I'm actually not the best person to help you, I hope would come come with that individual, feeling a little bit less about having to know everything or be good at everything, right? When someone in a leadership position can say, You know what, someone else is going to be better at this than me.

Yeah. Yeah, that relatability is powerful, right? When we see ourselves in someone else, we believe that we can and sometimes in that moment, of relatability, and we're doing just that we're telling them like, hey, you know, you don't need to know everything right now. Right now, where you are is okay, right now, who you are is enough. And we're all figuring it out. Right? Boom, 20 years, 3025 years, your senior still trying to figure it out? Right? Yeah, we're on team. But if we're on team, I don't know yet.

I think that's a powerful thing for a leader to say, right? What? I don't know. Right, you know, leaders who are leaders who listen, but at the same time can be honest with the members of the team to say, you know, what, I don't know. But we'll figure it out together. I think gain gained the trust of their team members a little bit quicker and stronger. And and, you know, I guess gain their respect in that regard. That is, he's not willing to make it up just to save face.

Yes. Yeah. And you're not you're not helping anybody in the moment when you do that. Yeah. At all. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly. You know, it was cool to hear you say a few moments ago, that, you know, in the beginning, I used to do this a lot. And now I'm gonna do that a little bit more, right, that growing process of, of learning in the beginning, I was I was 100%. Mr. Fix it. And it's taken me a while to not be that yeah, learning your own talents and strengths is, is something that is critical. Because it allows us to take pressure off of ourselves for being everything for everyone. It's so not only is it the wrong way to do it, as we were just talking about, right, like mentors don't know, everything is matter of fact, is great when they say they don't know what something. But also, you know, you do a fair amount of coaching and consulting, and oftentimes very generously, and, and so, but still, now, as a as a coach or consultant. In order to be the best coach or consultant, you really need to know what you can offer somebody. Yeah, these are my strengths. And these are my talents. Now, in the beginning, whenever you're in that whenever you're in that place. You know, I know when I first started being a life coach, I literally had clients across the board. And I was like, I can help you with anything right? And I didn't know about and not that I could help you. But I was like, it's my job to just ask you questions. So you come up with your own answers. I can ask anybody questions and of themselves. But there turns out there were certain people that I was like, I don't know the right questions to ask you because I don't know enough about x. And so fortunately, I was charging nothing or very little then so it's not like I was raking these people over the coals for the situation. But still, now there's part of me that's like, Okay, I need to really hone in on what am I excited to help people with? Where are my skills and my talents? which is, which is super important to do. But it also sometimes is scary to do, because are you closing yourself off to potential clients? Yeah, nerve racking, right? Especially when you're just getting started. And so I'm wondering for you, you know, when it comes to when it comes to some of the coaching and some of the consulting, and also some of the work you do as an executive, but how did you learn what skills and what talents you have, in a way that you could provide them to a potential client with clarity, right, I can help you with X, Y, and Z. These other things? I'm actually as you mentioned before, I'm actually not going to be your best person who should go to so and so for that, right. You know, how did you kind of hone some of those skills and actually be able to name them?

Yeah, that, that, that has been tough. And I think, to an extent remains tough, because I have a difficult relationship with with compliments, right. So just just the idea of saying out loud, I'm good at this. Yeah, already comes, you know, off a little bit weird with with me, but but, you know, to address your point directly,

this one,

to address your point directly. Um, I mean, you know, governance, which is, which is something that I really enjoy, and, you know, make reference to myself as being a governance nerd, I'm just not a lot of, you know, it's not, it's not, it's not the sexiest part of of work, right. The idea of structure and systems thinking, you know, not not a lot of people get, you know, super excited about a book talking about, or engaging in those types of conversations, right. But for one reason or another, I just, I just got hooked to this idea of, of governance and how that interaction at a board level, and the work that happens at a board level to sort of set strategy and then articulate that to a CEO or to a management team, and then work with them to set that up, was always something that for one reason or another, I just, I just enjoyed doing and found, found others asking me about really, why do you do it that way? And how do you do that way, you know, you've taken something that's quite traditional. And you've put a little bit of a twist on that, how and why. And I think that then merged into this, this strategy piece of linking opportunities, ideas and people in a way that maybe others weren't. And I, you know, if, if I do allow myself that one compliment, or pat on the back, is that I do think I, I can size up the situation, I think a little bit differently or quicker than than others. I, it's like I can see around the corner, sometimes, you know, the meaning, presumably, dots that should not be connected, I enjoy the challenge of connecting them, when the end result is the improve the life of somebody else, especially, especially James, if it's if it's youth, you know, I'll I'll show up and put in the work when it comes to helping youth advance in their careers and their life or whatever the case may be. Yeah.

Yeah, I really liked the way you put that. I think that is a it's, it's, it's hard, because when you are very generous, it's, it's, it's weird to think about the ideas of putting limitations on your generosity. But I guess what we're talking about is not that it's actually it's actually saying like, Hey, I am a tool in front of you. And here's how this tool is best used. Right? Right. I mean, could a hammer fix most problems? Probably, but not all of them. Right? Right then, but the fact of the matter is, like, here's how I here's what tool I am in your belt to help you out with X, Y and Z, right? Like I'm, we're gonna crush you with some governance. We're going to talk about structure we're going to talk about some of these things that a lot of people as you mentioned, and I agree with don't find sexy but a very important some it's the grease that keeps the engine moving. And and that's the part of the work that I'm not good at one of the reasons why I do what I do. Because I wasn't good at that side of stuff right now is like, you know, I don't know who Robertson why came up with all these rules are bad, but like, I don't think I hung out in high school. So, but at the same time, it matters, right? Because, yeah, there has to be a system of organization because it does create efficiency. And so they need people like you and I in these places. Yeah, make sure that there's that balance, but it's amazing that you've learned your talents and know what makes you happy and what and also like the way you started smiling when you talked about it, right? Like that's not a subject that people get giddy about and starts to love. Unless we're just right.

Yeah, I think for me, Jesus is like governance articulates, who gets to decide what and when. And if you think about like, big complex organizations, right, you know, who gets to make these decisions? under, under what circumstance? How are they held accountable, like all also pretty fundamental. And I think, you know, to an extent, obvious things, that's governance, it's just not acknowledged as such, right? Policies, and, you know, the relationship that the board has with the CEO, and, you know, the latitude that the CEO may or may not be given and, and then how that translates into how, you know, she provides her management team time and space to, you know, leverage their talents to accomplish goals. All of that is governance, whether you realize it or not, right, organizational design strong,

your naming it or not, yeah,

I guess, you know, I've, I've come to that journey, where I can put that name on it, but at the end of the day, the work is everybody's kind of doing the work. Maybe not reading recognizing that it's, it's under that, that, that, you know, umbrella of governance.

Yeah. Yeah, that's real. That's real. And, you know, I think it's cool also, because one of your passion areas is EDI work, right? Equity, Diversity and Inclusion work. And that there is a, a powerful role in governance and who gets to talk, and when they get to talk and how they use their time and whatnot, there's, there's a role and, you know, what are we doing to move the needle in some of these places? Because sometimes without structure, people just talking, right? We're not getting anywhere, we're not who's taking responsibility who's whatever, right? And also, who's allotting when who can speak and etc, etc. And so I think that that's where policy changes happen, and we're actually affected. And, yes, yes, we need to affect how we talk change the way that we talk one on one to individuals. But at the same time, we also need to do the bigger work as well, because some of these some of these archaic policies, and some of these archaic ways of thinking, need to be written out of some of these laws, or rewritten to include, and whatnot. And so EDI work is something that you are very outspoken about, and is at the forefront a lot of conversations in the way you think about the work that you do. And so I'm wondering, where does that where does that stem from for you? Right, you and I both being straight white males? Who who live who live comfortable lives right now, but where does that stem from for you? Does that? Does that come from being the child of immigrants? Is it some of it start there? Or is it something that like, maybe even think about it when you were younger? As much as that way? And now all of a sudden, it's come into your life? A different? Like, I'm just curious where your passion for it stemmed from?

Yeah. You know, I'd love to tell you that, you know, it's been with me throughout right, from from childhood to now. But you know, the truth is, is it hasn't I would, you know, I would venture to say that growing up, I had racist thoughts. I had homophobic thoughts, because growing up the way I did and how I did, there wasn't that in Tunis to, to the feelings of others in that sense, and the understanding of just being a good human of our humanity. Right, you know, it's not that it was blatant or anything like that, but it was those microaggressions that, you know, whether at the time I realized them or not, were being experienced by, you know, by my classmates, and by my friends, and what have you. And it just, you know, it didn't register with me, because to your point, I had the privilege and they was all lost on me. You know, fast forward a number of years and being fortunate enough to work in the environment that I do. You get exposed, you get exposed to great ideas and new ways of thinking and you meet wonderful people who, you know, over over a cup of coffee and maybe if some french toast, explain to you what, what their journey to the exact same spot that you're at how different it was for them because they're black, or because they identify as being from the LGBTQ plus community. And you know, that, that either is going to have one of one of two effects on you, right? You either shrug your shoulders, and it'd be like, well, that's not me. You made it so obviously, it's not bad, right? Horrible approach to think about it. Or to your point, you'd be like, I got to get to work. I have a I have a greater responsibility here. Right. Like, I think I said this earlier, like to an extent I'm not sure how much I earned what uh, what I what I have what I got to and you know, I said luck, but a lot of it could have been just privileged right looking the way I do and That sense of responsibility is there to improve, right and improve as a human being myself, recognizing that others who have it hard, don't have it hard because they lack something, just because of the way others perceive them. And that's, that's a horrible thing. That's a horrible thing for me to allow happen, or to just sit back and let happen. So, you know, not saying it's easy, it's certainly hard to, to be a part of, you know, these these big conversations. But, you know, I want to be in these conversations, not not just from a sense of responsibility, but again, just I think I'm a good human being a good human being stand up for each other. And whether that's being an active, anti racist, or finding other ways to fight oppression, I look for those opportunities. And my take, I take it on as, as a good member of the community, I think should

yeah. Yeah, yeah. And also you have the opportunity to, to kind of be the neck that turns the head of some of your students when it comes to this, right. Like, I mean, do you ever see the movie my big, Fat Greek Wedding? Yeah, yeah. So there's the point where the mom is said that the wife and the family is the neck and the man is the head, and sometimes it's the time to turn the head. Now, yeah, there's just some stuff we can unpack in that as well. And just touch on it stick with me to fight, hang out with me to the point of this, which is that, you know, sometimes as, as coaches as mentors, as directors, as executives, it's having the patience, to not just tell somebody to do the thing. But ask them the questions so that they can see for themselves and come to the answers themselves, like, oh, shoot, this really does matter. Or oh, shoot, there really is an incongruence in the way people are treated, or oh, shoot the real right like, and that's the longer route and EDI work. But it is, by far also the longest impacting route as well. Now, for people to be able to see some of that on their own. And that's, that's a cool way that you combine both of your something that you are passionate about, and something that you're very good at, is the way that you have these conversations are trying to have being the be in the conversations with people about these matters,

right? Yeah, no, I totally agree. You know, and to your point, like some of the work you do on your own and some of the work, you know, you're you get lucky and you have the benefit of others who it'll turn your neck and say, Have you thought about it that way? Or can you see it from this point of view? And I you know, we've been talking a lot about coaching and mentoring. And, you know, I've benefited from that too, right. 100% benefited from from having coaches and mentors, you know, a guest exposed me to books expose me to trainings, you know, being in the post circuit environment, you are, you know, overwhelmed with the amount of you know, workshops and trainings and such that you can participate in, that really pushed the envelope on your on your own conscious or unconscious biases. And then again, it ultimately boils down to that, that critical decision, are you just going to shrug your shoulders and move on? Or are you going to say I got something to do about it? And, you know, I guess I've decided to do something about it.

Mm hmm. Yes. Yeah, I think I love that. I think the two ways you highlighted that we learned either, whether it's from a mentor, we learned on our own, I'll step I'll step, I'll throw one other one. There is also also sometimes we learned by stepping in the shit, right? Yeah, and we just say the wrong thing at the wrong time. And, you know, intent versus impact, we learned really quickly that there's a difference between those two. And all three of those ways of learning are valid, and we get to where we get to by a combination of all three of those. Last question that I have for you, brother. Last question I have for you is this as someone who works with university and college students, one thing I've noticed is that a number, I'll say, 90% of the schools that I've spoken to this year, at some point in time on my call ahead of time with them, they have said and just so you know, we recently had a suicide on campus. Mental health is at a critical status right now for all of the right reasons, but and for a whole bunch of wrong reasons. And, you know, societal pressures in social media and, and, you know, I don't knock all that kind of stuff, because I'm very much a part of it. And some of it rewards me. But, but I'm wondering, are you also noticing that with your students as mental health, that being up in Ontario, something that you all are having conversations about? And I know it's a big question to end on, but I just be curious to see, you know, what are some ways that you're trying to have conversations around it? You think maybe some people listening today could be like, Oh, I could talk to somebody or I could talk to myself about it.

Yeah, no, I mean, I think it's actually a great, great way to end because I think the thing that you and I have in common is, you know, that, that investment that we put into youth, and hopes that they can be reached their full potential that that they have. And that is, that means they're there, they are there, their whole selves, if you know what I mean. And the mental health pieces is a big component of it, those conversations they've been, you know, we've been having them for years, the pandemic and COVID, you know, definitely highlighted that, you know, shout out to all students who made their way through their studies during this during this period of time, like talk about, you know, resilience, that it's, it's crazy to see what they went through and how they persevered. And that's, that's a testament to them as individuals, and I think, you know, they need to hear it, right, they need to hear that they are enough, they need to hear that, that it's okay to not be okay. And when you're not, okay, there's a ton of people who want to help you, some of them are going to help you with a hug, some of them are going to help you by sitting down and having a conversation about what the root causes are. But ultimately, everybody wants you to be happy and succeed. And there are a lot of different ways that you know, the resources that are on campus, throughout Canada, I'm sure the US there, they're there for students to take advantage of. social connection is I think, the kind of missing piece of this puzzle, like you talked about social media and what have you. And obviously, in a pandemic, where you're told to stay home and, you know, not not connect with others, that has, that has a, it certainly did have a big toll on on youth. But, you know, nothing beats, you know, sitting across from somebody at a diner and shooting the shit and talking about life and being vulnerable. And for for those of us that are in these positions of either, you know, I'll put in air quotes, like power or what have you. Demonstrating vulnerability is a way to help others particular in this case, youth feel good about the fact that they're experiencing things in such a way, that means that they're not alone, and that there are others who are doing it or feeling it too. And that again, you know, it's okay not to be okay, all the time. And that, you know, mental health is no different than physical health, it just presents itself differently. So the same way you would treat, you know, a sore shoulder or a banged up knee, you should you should treat your mind and you should seek help. And, you know, there's there's power in that own that just nothing, you know, stigma is a big thing. But we've got to crush that stigma.

Yeah, damn right, we got to crush that stigma. And it truly is, I think, I think we're, I think we've come a long way. I think in some ways, that's how social media has helped because people are actually talking about it. And you know, I think it's brought the concerns out in a way so that we know almost even more what our students are dealing with. And and so it's in some weird way it's also helped as well as very much hurt and it's a fascinating thing, but we have the knowledge we know what's going on. So what are we going to do with it? And I love the way you just put that and you and I have never had a bad conversation. We just haven't as much as time is as separate. I know we haven't seen each other in at least five six years. Yes, it does. It doesn't matter man right? It's always a pleasure to sit down with you hear your thoughts I've always respected the work that you do and the man that you are and so I cannot thank you enough for coming through the diner brother.

Whether you realize it or not I look up to you to man like the books the speaking tours. You got a lot to you got a lot to be proud of to and everybody north of the border. Well, depending on which location of the US HERE AT because some of us aren't North more North than I am. But Canada loves you man the next time you're in town, wherever my favorite diner,

Assam buddy, it is on hope we get your Raptors game too. I love that. We can do that to party there. Love that. I love that stadium. I love it, brother. Thank you so much, man. Appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, y'all that was my time with my man Senora Peroni a collaborator on he's a man. He's just such a great dude. I love his insights. The things that we talked about today we talked about mental health, obviously, and being that voice and letting in the individual's giving them the space to talk and make sure how are we listening? What does empathy look like in the work that we're doing? Now, same thing with the DEI work, and it's just, I just love the way that he put a lot of the matters, because a lot of it came down to the fact that through being a little bit more seasoned, having a little bit more experience, he learned to ask questions before jumping in, right, he learned that the fact that, you know, learning is harder than assuming, but it's work worth doing, whether it's in the DI space, the mental health space, the mentoring space, and that's, that's something that we're about here in the diner, y'all. So I appreciate you all coming through. And until next time, do me a favor, keep punching small talk in the face by asking better questions. You all take care.