In part 2 of this series, Roxanna Marazzi of RM Consultancy, Matt and Dannii discuss mindset, attitude, coachability, emotional intelligence, role fit and why high performers do not automatically become strong leaders. This episode is for sales leaders, RevOps, talent and enablement teams who need a more objective way to identify people who can learn, adapt and grow.

Hello, and welcome to the Growth Workshop Podcast.

In this podcast, we'll be sharing insights and hearing from other industry leaders

to get their thoughts and perspectives on what growth looks like in modern business.

Welcome to part two of three.

because your company values are not gonna change.

The, the s- the, the market or your industry might change, but the people

that are essentially building that culture, you want a culture that feels

as good as it performs, not just one.

You need to have both.

So starting from hire, from the hiring process I feel is really important.

And that goes back again to your the, Dan, your point on the,

on, on assessing those capabilities and those behaviors and doing it.

We obviously do it with a lot of our, with a lot of our clients on

their existing teams, of course.

But as to your point around hiring, it's making that part of the hiring

process to understand, yeah, to to measure these things objectively.

'Cause I think a big part of that challenge, and I'm gonna go back to

your point around the interview and that and that perception that a leader has.

They walk in, they have an interview.

In the first 10 minutes, you know if you're gonna like someone or not, right?

Y- we've all been in those, we've all done many interviews on the hiring side of the

table and just recognizing, we need, maybe need to take some of that subjectivity

out of it and make it more objective and look at are we hit, are we hit…

and it's not the only, it's not the only data point that we're using,

but it's a really important one.

Yeah, and especially if you have four different

personalities that are interviewing.

You might have someone who's analytical, you might have someone who's, a

bit more looking at the emotional intelligence of the person, which is why

I always have a coach in my interview process when I'm hiring a leader.

It's so important to have different personalities in there, but also a one

scoring system so it removes the bias.

You're all understanding what questions are aligned to what value

and what attitude based on that role.

Because let's say you're going in at five o'clock two days before the end

of the month and you're hiring someone.

You might be in a bad mood.

You might be looking at your phone a million times.

You might m-miss golden nuggets of someone who might be a diamond in

the rough, and you've missed them because it was the wrong time And

it, that's why a scoring system just holds no feelings, this is facts.

And that whole … And look, I'm not saying don't follow your gut, but

sometimes depending on the season, the time, where you're at, it's,

it can, you can lose good people.

And I love how you have this scoring system just because if you

think, going back to the, the values piece, a high performer in one company

does not mean they're gonna be a high perf- high performer in, in your company.

So I think looking at something more holistically, whether it's

values and everything else that you use to aggregate these scores is

often overlooked, but so important.

It's just, are they gonna bring in revenue?

Have they got that, have they got that previous experience?

Yeah.

That's really not the most important thing if you're looking

at aptitude, attitudes potential.

It's, yeah, there's so many other things to take into consideration in the world

that we live in today where everything is changing so, so very quickly.

Yeah.

It's so much more to do with mindset and attitude, isn't it?

Definitely.

One of the best leaders that I coached and was in my team came from an

American football background Just the commitment of just regimented committed

to the cause team player, thought outside the box, didn't come from

that industry, and just brought this diversity of thought that we needed.

I've hired people that don't have degrees or haven't come from the industry, and

the challenge and the, the, the needed challenges from having that diversity

in your team, just brings a whole different perspective onto things.

Which was a really good m- a, a move that, you just typically

go for a, a standard profile.

But then dipping your toe outside of that was a really good move.

You had to be an American footballer, so-

Yeah … do you know what I mean?

Yeah, exactly.

It's Ted, it's the Ted Lasso piece, isn't it?

You bring

a- Yeah

… Matt Best: yeah.

American, American football coach comes over, coaches a, a,

British football team, right?

And you think, and the whole premise though of the, of that story, of course

is that actually it's not about the, his knowledge of the game, but it's about the,

what he brings in terms of the mechanics of how he coaches and how he helps people

to get the m- the best out of themselves.

And this is the, that's the role of a true leader, and we talk about

that in the context of performance.

I think the, the other interesting piece is that is that resilience piece.

Dannii, you mentioned it.

I had a conversation with actually with my wife and about my kids on this recently.

Just think about the changing nature of the world, actually what w- my, my

belief is that one of the most important skills right now for kids is resilience,

because things are changing constantly.

We can't predict what's, what education's gonna look like in, in 10 years' time or

five years' time or even two years' time.

But it's-- Or what they're going to need.

But if we can recognize some of those traits, those capabilities that we know

breed success in any context that's the bit that's gonna help to scale the team.

And I think your point on hiring for that hiring for those things in

the first instance is so important.

And taking it back to that, Roxy, like when you think about when you think

about hiring, you're thinking about those, those specific traits, and we

got there as a part of you, your your reflection that actually it starts

with hiring in terms of how people will see enablement in a business.

Help me break that down again slightly.

What are those specific behaviors that you're looking at within your

framework when you're hiring people in that tells you that they're going

to be teachable, that tells you that they're going to be open to learning

and that they're going to be enableable?

There you go.

There's a new word.

Enableable.

Don't

think we should-

Might use that.

Yeah.

You're gonna use that?

But I come up with these fif- fifty-fifty.

I think for me, what I've seen when it comes to the longevity

of someone growing within a business, because there is not a hiring problem

per se, but it's more of like a retention problem, because if you think of the

mindset of the younger generation now, they wanna make an impact, they wanna make

an impact fast, so they move on quickly.

So if I think about the characteristics, grit, being able to really get stuck in.

Accountability, so are they able to put their hands up and admit

that they've done something wrong?

You can't have a yes person.

You need to make sure that there's a level of ownership there Are they a team player?

So are they able to get stuck in?

They need to be have the right attitude in the sense that, everything is

not gonna go your way all the time, especially in a big organization.

You're gonna be asked to do things that you might not want to do at the time.

There'll be a reason behind it, but in order for you to be able to be resilient

enough do they have the right attitude?

One thing that is important- that I've realized as well, is that a good

salesperson doesn't necessarily mean that they're gonna be a good sales leader.

Oh, gosh.

Absolutely.

And if you-- And a lot of people get roles because of tenure

or, they've been here a long time, give them a leader, give them a leader role.

Some of them don't even wanna be leaders.

But they feel that's the natural progressive next stop for them

and they feel shoehorned into doing it because that's what they

should be doing after five years.

But that breeds the wrong environment as well.

Especially like a leader has many hats, right?

You're not just a leader, you're a counselor you're a BFF, you're a a

mentor, an advisor, and you need to be ready to wear those hats, right?

Gone are the days of micromanaging and just telling people to pick up

the phone and, update Lotus Notes.

It's not that anymore.

So it's un- having that emotional intelligence to really see

patterns of behavior, know how to essentially customize how you talk.

It isn't a carte blanche anymore, or it's, isn't accepted anymore.

People, how they learn, cognitive learning, the diversity of learning.

Some people learn through repetition mirroring remote, in person autonomy.

Like there's so many different ways but it's Tapping into those things

within your teams to really build that trust and then also know how to

support your team is really important.

Yeah, I just-- it's just touching on the

emotional intelligence piece.

I think that's the, that's if not now it will be the core skill, and it

should be anyway in a leadership role.

Moving into the world of AI, the g- gone are the days of just being a, a

leader that tells because you've got AI that can tell you what to do now.

You don't need that part of a leadership role.

You need that emotional intelligence that's gonna, as you, m- alluded

to, that's gonna read the room, that's gonna be able to divert

their course of direction depending on what that person needs.

Because if AI is doing all of the, the administration piece, the dashboards,

the sales accountability from a revenue generation piece, then we really need to

flex on those human skills because I'm not saying that's all we've got going for us.

But- Yeah … if you can't come down to that level and really read your team,

you're not gonna be able to motivate them.

You're not gonna be able to be that coach.

So I think a-as a leader now, I will be really checking in with, like,

how is my emotional intelligence?

Because that is what's gonna see me through the finish line, not the

way that I tap on a dashboard and say, "Hey, look at your pipeline.

What's your data hygiene?" There's not a place for that because we've got AI

nudgers that can tell us, "Okay your pipeline's slipped," or, "Look at this

analysis," or, we've got that data, that raw data available just in time now.

Yeah, and AI has made it so easy to build out your KPI stack,

so but it shouldn't be your savior.

It can amplify, where the gaps are and, help support you but it shouldn't

be the end-all and be-all because AI will never know what it feels like to

close a deal at the end of the month.

They won't know how to or what it feels like to understand the pains of, someone

who has a a pipeline issue, doesn't know why, and there is a background

because they've not actually done that.

They are regurgit- Look, there is a time and a space for AI many leaders are using

AI now to coach or build frameworks, which is fine, but to coach and to have those

s-situation behavior conversations is it's not gonna breed the right leadership

that we need, especially in a time like this where AI is being seen to take over

and not complement what we're doing, which is a danger to many companies

because it will just become a- A centre of, AI support where, that interaction

is needed more now than ever before.

And on that topic of AI, Roxy, like when you think about AI and

enablement, what are s- what are the greatest opportunities but also some

of those threats that you see to to, enablement facilitation through AI?

Yeah, so for, for me, enablement focuses or should

focus on four things or five things.

One is your current performance and where you are now.

That can be done by AI.

That can go into your CRM and build a really fancy report as to where

everything lies at your current state.

The second part would be your capability gaps.

So where are those gaps within the business?

Is it behavioural?

Is it or is it around the, the roles?

Are people aligned to the right things?

Are they doing the right things?

Do we all know what good looks like?

The third is around role alignment.

So are we hiring or are people in the right roles, and are we equipping

them with the right capability and frameworks to make sure that

we get the most out of them?

And then, as you said, Dannii, the potential to develop.

So do we have the right people in the right places, and do they actually

have the potential to go from where they are now to where they need to be?

And then manager readiness.

Do we have the right support around our leaders because they are the ones on the

ground coaching, mentoring, and helping these AEs be the best that they can be

and to help them, to, to talent multiply.

So I think AI can really help you automate.

Gone are the days where those Excel spreadsheets were there, and you'd put

your name in and, you'll put in your close rate, and you'd put in your perfor- your

your target, and it'll tell you exactly how many calls that you could make.

It was revolutionary 15 years ago.

But now, those things are happening in seconds, so it removes the administrative

things that can slow things down.

But enablement, and Dannii touched on this earlier, is being on the

ground with your salespeople.

There should actually be a day in the life of an enablement

person being in sales being in enablement, and really understanding

what happens behind the scenes.

This isn't just a, especially in enablement, I think people

just think we've got programs on the ready, and we can just roll

them out to whoever in seconds.

And it's so not the case, especially when you're working at a global scale

across multiple locations, hundreds of leaders that are all asking for

different things at the same time.

It's not who shouts the loudest.

It has to be what is part of our strategic commercial-- Or what's our strategic

plan and what's gonna make the biggest or the, the commercial impact that we need.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Not I've got a rep who's struggling to close out some deals.

Have you got a training video that I can send to them?

Correct.

Yeah.

Exactly, yeah.

Where do you think that the, in, in larger organizations, where

do you think the AI upskilling sits?

Like who, who do you think that, that belongs to?

Purely for commercial teams.

So part of, I would say, sales operations and programs.

But then again, enablement has a programs team and this is where the

waters or the swim lanes are not clear.

Yeah.

So you have sales ops or-- And I've been in different organisations where sales ops

would o- own the data behind our tools.

And Enablement would har- would look after the sales excellence piece.

But then you have other organisations where sales ops and enablement are

actually doing the same thing and then just running them on different days.

So for me, I think something like AI should sit with sales

ops because it's around data.

And it, yeah I would say sales ops.

But then again, enablement has programs.

Yeah, so I- … it's a really- That's

a tough one.

Yeah, it's a really interesting view, and I think

everybody will have a different- Yeah

different lens.

It's a tough one.

And I think my, my view for the last, since AI has really, I say since it's

really taken off, it's been around for decades, but since it's been more

mainstream and commercialized, I think when I've al- I've always thought that

where enablement sits, because it is the glue in between all of the go-to-market

functions, and we are we've been solely responsible for ensuring that people are

going to market with the right skills, the right capabilities the right resources,

the right assets, all of that great stuff that makes salespeople really effective.

Actually, AI makes people really effective, and I think where I've

seen AI upskilling kind of go wrong is when they're like, "Bob from

IT is gonna come down and give you some," sorry Bob, if you're out

there listening and you're not in IT.

A-and is gonna come down and give you some AI training, but it's in zero

context, zero context of how the life a, life of a salesperson might look like.

So they'll get that training, and they'll be like, "Okay, great, and what?" And

it just falls because- Yes … it's not relative to them in their role in how they

can make them go quicker, faster, smarter.

Yeah.

So I see enablement as being the perfect glue in the middle that helps not

only upskill from a, a context piece, but also the, these are the elements.

There's so much noise, right?

So much noise around AI, but these are the elements that you need to pay

attention to, that you need to put a focus to, that's gonna help you get

to that revenue goal or that's gonna help you get to that next quarter

whatever they're being measured on.

Yeah.

It's interesting you say 'cause it actually takes me back to what

we were doing in a fast start in Salesforce when I headed up enablement.

It was, for me, a, it was bringing people into those learning circles

that did the job, understood the job, and knew where things sat.

So you would have learning circles that were for, let's say, for the

AEs learning a specific product.

But we would also bring in solution engineers- to talk about that product.

Then we would have salespeople who have sold that product with

the solution engineers in order to show like that full circle.

"I've done it. This is how I pitch it." The SEs for, the, the technical

side of what we need to know, not everything, but what we need to know,

and then it also showed that partnership.

So psychologically, it's not just you're watching a video and this is what

this license can do for your t- for your client, but this is the SE who's

gonna be selling it with you, and this is the salesperson that's actually

done it, and this is what they made.

So it's bringing people together, like Bob, bless Bob, but Bob hasn't done

anything to s- support the cause of, "Yeah, this is, I've done it, this

is what it does, this is how it fixes it, and now go and do it as well."

It's bringing those people together, which is f- really important.

And

I think it's the same concept as when you see their lack

of adoption, you get somebody that's coming to sales enablement, and they're

working with sales teams, and they're like, "What sales experience do you

have?" "Oh I've been in L&D for years."

And it almost, which I'm not saying there's a right or wrong, but immediately

the, the commercial team will be like, "How can you tell us how to do this when

you've never done it yourself?" Yeah.

So I think the same we're kinda seeing the same patterns with AI now.

You're coming in to tell somebody how they can be better in their

commercial role by using AI when they've never been in a commercial role.

So how can you bring that, paint that picture and really bring it together?

So yeah, I think there's there's, it's m- most certainly different-

differences of views and opinions when it comes to the acceleration.

And going back to what you said about account- accountability, ownership, it's

almost like, "Oh, that's not my problem.

That's this person's problem." And when people aren't owning it it's

really difficult to get off the ground.

But I love learning circles.

I'm gonna take that one.

Yeah.

Never heard that before, but- That wasn't

actually created by-

I wanna be in a learning circle.

That wasn't actually created by me.

It was created by my leader at the time.

But the dynamics of the learning circle of bringing different people in to show

this isn't someone just telling you, this is someone showing you, giving you

a story behind it, giving you examples as to where this fits, why it fits, how

much money they've made from it, 'cause those people wanna hear how much money

you've made from it in order to give them the incentive to push the product.

But it really did bring people together, especially after COVID, right?

We were all out for a fair few years.

It feels like ages ago, but not too long ago.

And bringing people together again to learn, because everyone wa-

was working from home, so it was to encourage people to come back

in and, y- you learn from others.

There was buzzing sales floors to then no one being around, to then

trying to coax everyone back in.

And this was one way that, learning circles did that.

Thank you so much for listening.

We'll be back with part three of this discussion.

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