This episode delves into the trailer for Season Five of "Stranger Things," which dropped on October 30th, and the initial five minutes of the forthcoming season. Andrea and Paul offer a thorough exploration of the trailer's content, dissecting its implications and potential foreshadowing of the series' climax. Additionally, we discuss the stage play "The First Shadow," a prequel to the series, and speculate on how it will be integrated into the final season's plot arc.

Welcome to kinfolklore.

We've got a Stranger Things bonus episode for you today.

I'm Andrea.

That's right.

I'm Paul.

And the season five trailer dropped on October 30th, and we also could not wait to talk about it.

We waited a little bit because there was also the five minutes of first five minutes.

Minutes of Stranger Things 5.

So we're gonna talk about all that.

So in the first part of the pod, we're gonna talk about the trailer.

And then the first five minutes, which Netflix released on Stranger Things day.

What stood out, what it might mean, how it sets up the final season.

And then in the second half, we'll be talking about the first shadow, the stage play, and the acts that acts as a prequel to Stranger Things.

And this episode of the POD is acting as a preque to the drop of season five.

So everything after the trailer we discussed.

The trailer will include potential Season 5 spoilers.

Obviously, the first five minutes is definitely a spoiler, and the information from the play, which is a prequel, but we think will be integrated into season five will also be.

So if you don't want any of those spoilers, you should stop listening after we talk about the trailer.

And, Andrea, we are going to such beautiful things together as we cover this show.

And it will have some adult content.

Let's go.

Let's start with our observations of the trailer.

So beginning looks a lot like the library in the Upside Down.

It's a recall.

The library was where Will was found in season one by Joyce and Hopper.

So, yeah, and we got our boy, Henry Creel, Vecna, saying, at last we can begin one.

What are we beginning?

Okay, that sounds very ominous.

Vecna, I'm gonna need you to relax.

Bring it down a notch.

And what have we been doing for four seasons?

You mean you haven't begun yet?

Well, I actually think this is a flashback.

I think that this is actually from season one.

We know that the Upside down doesn't look exactly how it looked then.

And I have some other reasons that I think.

I think Will is in the background of the shot.

It's hard to see.

It's a little tough, but I think.

I think you can see his sneaker.

And I think the Demogorgon that captured him is who Vecna is speaking to.

Yeah.

And that's a good.

I think that's a good call out because I think, like, you know, we've gotten in interviews with the Duffers, them stating that we're going to understand what happened to Will and his connection to the Upside down and what the Upside down is.

So I think.

I think.

Yeah, let's.

Let's.

I. I like that theory that this is like a flashback to what happened on that night behind the scenes.

Yeah.

And then the next scene is Dustin busting into Hawkins High.

Changed.

His mannerisms changed.

He.

He's really different than he was before Eddie's death.

Yeah.

There's definitely a heavy heaviness to him.

How he looks.

It kind of feels.

Eddie ish.

Honestly.

It feels like he's taken on.

He's taken to heart what Eddie said to him, which is that they were the future of the Hell.

The Hellfire Club and to go out there and recruit and there's a defiance.

Right.

The Hellfire Club at the end of season four is under immense scrutiny.

And he's wearing his Hellfire Club T shirt.

Yeah.

No.

100%.

So, yeah.

Seems like he's changed.

He also looks like he's later on gotten some bruises and beat up and kind of.

And that's concerning as well.

Like.

So I have a few theories about that.

I think those are from.

So I think the majority of this trailer is from the first four episodes.

That's really typical for trailers in general, but especially for Stranger Things.

I always put out a trailer that's like the first few episodes.

I do have a.

Some.

Some speculation about whether or not some other scenes are from later episodes and we can talk about which ones those are.

The Duffers did say that there is a frame from every single episode in this trailer, but the way they're weaved together, I think I'm thinking about the.

How do I want to put this?

I'm thinking about the first four episodes, Volume one, as Dustin getting beat up as kind of the before he gets beat up in the after.

And so I think that something is gonna happen to Dustin in that first episode.

My guess is it's gonna be a fight with another kid.

I think this is gonna be like one of the human monster moments.

Not.

Not that he's beat up in a battle.

I think this is going to be like a high school thing.

I agree.

I think so, too.

I think it's going to be a high school thing too.

And he's.

Yeah, for sure.

So let's talk about, like, what's the state of Hawkins?

It sounds like it looks like in this.

From what we're seeing from the Trailer.

You know, you see Mike and Elle sitting on the roof of the squawk.

And.

And it looks like Hawkins looks to be under quarantine.

And the radio station does not appear to be in downtown Hawkins.

So I think that's why it makes a good base for them, because it's not in the middle of the action.

Okay.

But the tunnels from season two.

I think those are the tunnels from season two.

I don't know what other tunnels would exist.

They look too clean.

But the tunnels from season two are of use to them.

They can travel underneath Hawkins and maybe even into the Upside down using those tunnels.

So I think it seems like there might be one in the radio station, huh?

Yeah.

Because they open up a door there.

Right.

I couldn't tell if that was the actual.

If that was the library of the radio station, but I think, yes, they have easy access to the tunnels, and I think it's maybe quite likely that that's mostly where Hopper and Elle live.

In the tunnel.

Yes.

Yeah, makes sense.

I like that.

I like that take, too.

So we see that, you know, present there.

Mike is kind of leading again.

You have.

You have Joyce, Will, Lucas, Nancy, Robin.

Jonathan looks accounted for.

Steve, obviously, we talked about Dustin, but there's no l in those shots where all of them are together.

And there's no Hopper and there's no Murray, who is oddly missing from the whole trailer.

He's in one.

He's in one scene.

Is he?

Yeah.

Murray and Robin are in a scene in the trailer where it looks like portals are like.

It looks like not portals, but like the upside down is bleeding and into the right side up.

But that's the only scene Murray is in, which makes me concerned for our guy.

Murray.

Man.

We're not going to.

We're going to.

We're going to hope that no liquor has to be spilled there.

We're going to pray.

We're going to pray for that one.

So it seems like there's going to be some sort of confrontation with the Demodogs and Vecna, as we can see in the trailer.

Like, they.

They come and they storm the site of where they're quarantining.

And there's also.

Vecna shows up.

There's a scene also with Joyce and Mike where there's, like, a lot of worry looming and worried.

Will's on the couch behind Joyce, and he's passed out.

So I think that scene takes place after the scene where Vecna does his.

Will, you can be of help to me once more.

You think so?

You think that's after?

I think it's after.

So I think.

I think that the scene where Mike is plotting out.

First of all, there's two scenes where the party is plotting.

One is outside.

It's the one where Will turns around and walks away from the picnic table.

And then the other is this larger planning session where Joyce is there along with the older teens.

Okay.

So I think that that plan with the older teens is what we're seeing with Nancy with the.

The.

The gun, with Steve driving through Hawkins.

All of that, I think is a part of the plan.

Very traditional, stranger things like caper plan.

And it goes very wrong because Vecna pops up outside of the library and takes Will.

I don't think he takes Will's body.

I think he takes Will's like, consciousness and leaves the body behind.

And that's what is behind couch.

Behind couch.

Behind Joyce on the couch is Will passed out.

And then I think that's why El and Hopper heading into the Upside down to try to retrieve.

Well, well, got it.

And save.

Save.

Well, I don't.

Obviously, this is not perfect, Right?

We're just speculating.

I don't know a lot.

We got to fill in a bunch of stuff here.

But, you know, there are the three scenes.

Two scenes I'm pretty sure are not from the first volume are the.

Well, the tower that we see Robin looking up at.

We.

That's confirmed, I think, by Matt Duffer.

That's not gonna.

That's in volume two.

Okay.

And then whoever is falling between worlds in that really amazing looking scene, but we can't see who it is.

The.

The main speculation is it's Will, Max, or Holly.

Some people on Twitter have blown up the picture.

It does look like it could be Max or Holly.

It doesn't look like it's.

Well, but I. I think it could go either way.

It's very.

It's very far away.

I think that that's from chapter six, which is in volume two, the episode titled Escape from Camazots, which is also written by Kate Treffery.

So who wrote the spy from season two, which is the most important episode according to the Duffers?

So is this a place where you kind of want to talk about your spy theory before we go any further into the trailer or you want to leave that?

I mean, we can talk about it here.

Because I like it.

I like it.

I've sat with it for all day since you've told me.

I like it a lot.

I think.

I think it works.

Yeah.

I mean, there's not that much more to say about the trailer that hasn't been well covered.

But.

So when the.

After the trailer came out, there was a big interview done with ew, right?

It was ew.

It was.

Yep.

And in that interview, some things were confirmed, some things were a little, you know, they left us a little bread.

But one thing that was stated, I think, by Ross Duffer was that season two, episode six is the most important episode to answer.

You know, connect it with the connective tissue to this season and the questions about Will and why Will was chosen and all of that.

That episode is called the Spy.

And just so for everyone's memory, that is the episode where Will.

It becomes evident that Will is possessed by the Mind Flayer.

I watched that episode today and one.

It's a really good episode and a bunch of other stuff happens.

It's also the episode where Jonathan and Nancy get together and there's like a bunch of things that happen in that episode.

But the most important thing that I drew from that is about when Will.

It becomes evident that Will is possessed when he's talking to Dr. Owens.

So what happens is Will wakes up from his.

He had passed out from the events of the night before, which is getting Hopper out of the tunnels and they burned up the vines.

And that hurt Will.

He's in the hospital and he wakes up and he says, mom.

But he doesn't recognize Bob and he doesn't recognize Mike.

So then eventually Dr. Owens is questioning him and he asks him who's, you know, he asked him, does he know who Mike is?

And it takes him a minute, but he says, my friend Mike.

Then when it's Hopper jumps in next and says, do you remember who I am?

And Will has no idea who Hopper is.

And then he says, do you remember what happened last night when you saved me?

And Will says, no.

And so Owen starts to it.

So for me, at this point, Will is not in the room with us.

This is not really.

Well, this is some other entity who has some fragments of Will's memory.

Like he remembers who Mike is with with great effort, but he's not really.

Doesn't know who Bob is, doesn't know who Hopper is, doesn't know who he.

He.

All he can say about Dr. Owens, a man he's been meeting with weekly for a year, is that you're a doctor.

So this is not well.

So when Owens continues to question him, Will says, they hurt me, meaning the soldiers that were burning the vines, they hurt me.

Using first person pronouns that upset him, using A pronoun that is not first person.

Right.

So now we're talking about two separate entities.

Owen shows him a picture, the picture he drew of the Mind Flayer, and he says, is this him?

And Will says, yes.

So here's my thought.

In that room is Vecna.

The Mind Flayer is the big bad him.

That's the him that.

That he's scared of, that is controlling everyone.

And if you stick around for the spoiler section where we're going to talk about the play, you will understand why I believe this, because the play sort of informs us on Henry Creel and his journey into having powers as well.

So here's what I love about this, because, you know, when you said it to me, I questioned, what could it be?

A flip flop.

You said, no, because this.

And you explained it to me.

And then I sat with it for the rest of the day until we started potting.

And as I thought it through, this tracks so well with my idea around Will's consciousness and how it's impacted a lot of the different things that we've seen and experience, the ideas that we've shared around how music penetrates certain portion of the brain, how people can all those things track so well with that.

If the Mind Flayer is the person pulling the strings, he could have impacted Henry Krill, who is now Vecna, and he could be impacting Will, who is now part of Endgame and the plan, because that is the entity that's pulling the strings, not Vecna.

Vecna is just one.

Vecna was also affected.

And both of them sharing that sensitivity thread, it may be a precursor as to why the Mind Flayer is using them.

And, you know, when you just think about, I guess, reluctantly shouts to House Bolton, when you think about flaying people and you think about flaying a mind, it peels back things that.

From, you know, peeling back the skin, but peeling back the top layers so that the essence is exposed.

And I think, like that idea of them being sensitive enough for that peeling to take place and multiple people.

The way that it makes a lot of sense because a lot of this has been.

A lot of the experimentation has been with thought process, controlling things with your mind.

How do you.

It just makes a lot of sense that the Mind flare is pulling the strings on everybody in a way that, that, that we've kind of.

And they've moved us away from the Mind Flayer so much thematically in the story that it would make sense that that's the main.

The main Big Bad.

I. Yeah, it.

I mean, I could go either way.

Right.

Because another thing we have learned is that in that same episode, Will lies.

He lies.

He lies to Mike.

Right?

That's when he's the spy.

He.

He sets up the scenario to kill a whole bunch of people when he's spying for the Mind Flayer, Vecna.

Whoever.

I just thought it was interesting the way that the pronouns changed.

Right.

Yeah.

So I did want to just.

Just talk this last piece about the trailer and then we can talk about the play.

Yeah.

So I.

There's been a lot of speculation about Holly and Karen.

This is the scene with them in the bathtub has.

I've seen this picture a million times.

The footage of them in the trailer is after the bathtub attack because they're both soaking wet.

It appears that Karen is hurt.

Holly seems like she's okay.

No Ted to be found.

I think Ted got.

I think Ted got.

I think.

I mean, that shouldn't be funny.

I'm sorry.

But if he goes out to save the fam.

Rip, I just think it's like.

It was just funny.

You're like, he got.

Got.

I mean, like, we don't want to see anything bad happen to Ted.

And I wonder if whatever happened, I think that's going to happen literally in episode one.

And whatever happened to Ted, or at the Wheeler House in general, not just to Ted, is what is going to lead to the plan, Mike's plan, which is going to lead to the confrontation in which Will gets taken.

So that's kind of how I'm thinking about it.

And then the last thing I want to say about the trailer is, you know, what a thing that, like, I don't think we can ignore anymore, which is that there's just some kind of nods to the Harry Potter films, at least, like the.

The.

William, you were gonna help me one last time.

It's given the Battle of Hogwarts.

It just is.

Even Noah Schnobs, like, put that on his Instagram.

Like, I just think that that comparison is there to be made.

I hate talking about Harry Potter on this podcast, but I just don't think we can avoid it.

And then the last thing is that force field that.

The blue force field that Hopper.

I think it's.

Hopper looks up at.

I think that that's probably some kind of protection spell, but it also reminds me of the Battle of Hogwarts and the protection spell that McGonagall cast before the Death Eaters come.

So isn't That L. That does that too, doesn't L do something?

I don't think that's L. I think it's edited to be to look like it's L. I think that's something or someone else.

Okay.

Okay.

So those were.

Those were my observations from the trailer.

Was there anything else that you noticed?

I mean, the obvious.

El's skills have leveled up.

I mean, she's.

They didn't make it where she can fly from what they.

The way they described it, but damn near close.

Like she's able to propel herself through the air in ways that we haven't seen her do before.

So the training has been.

Has been working, working out, turns out, training on her own.

She's getting stronger than when she's training with Papa.

Trained.

But she's training with her actual dad.

Right?

Exactly.

She's training in an environment where she's not under duress.

I mean, she's under duress because.

Because the world is falling apart.

But she's not under the duress of the.

The person who's training her.

She's training with someone who cares about her, who will make sure she doesn't get hurt.

Who.

Yeah, you know, if she makes mistakes, isn't going to be mad at her.

So I think that that definitely helps.

But when.

Remember when the teaser came out and we were like, is Elle flying?

Is that.

I'm like, freeze framing it.

I'm like, what's going on?

So the fact that they just let us see that, I was like, all right.

Which means there's going to be more shit going on.

Yeah, I'm hyped.

I'm ready now.

Yeah, let's.

Let's go.

I can't wait until November 26th.

Let's go.

Yeah, for sure.

For sure.

So.

Yeah, no, I think that's it.

I think.

I mean, I think.

Yeah, I think that's it.

That's all I want to talk about.

Because other things would lead us down roads that I don't want to go into, which is potential.

I would say this.

I was gonna say potential.

Spoilers.

If you want more insight into what the Duffers are thinking, I would highly recommend reading that EW article.

I think it was a really good article to kind of see where their head is at.

We've referenced a couple of things in other episodes.

In the season four episodes, you will hear references around the whole things they say about Darth Vader, but there's some really good stuff in there.

So with that, if you are uninterested in hearing about the play or spoilers from the play.

Now is the time that we will just say thank you for listening to our takes on the trailer.

We're looking forward to talking about more once the season drops around season five.

Anyway, please check out all the coverage that we're doing on season three, season four, and what we've done so far on seasons one and two.

So we're going to let you go to head out of here.

All right, so let's get into it.

Let's get into the first.

Let's talk about the first five minutes.

I would love to unpack.

4 minutes and 38 seconds.

Is that how long it was?

They owe us 42 seconds.

42 seconds.

They owe us 18 seconds.

They owe us 18 seconds.

We will get those 18.

18 seconds tomorrow.

But I. I would.

I would have liked it when they promised five minutes.

Yeah, the.

The fans being like, where are 18 seconds?

Was possibly the funniest thing about Stranger Things Day.

Stranger Things day was a blast, I gotta say.

Like, it was so fun to see everybody walking down the red carpet telling the stories, you know, interacting with the fans.

The chat was on fire when people showed up.

It was great.

I think the biggest chat response had to be to Winona.

So that was freaking great.

But, you know, everybody was just waiting.

We were all counting the minutes till we got to see the first 4 minutes and 48 seconds of content.

42 seconds.

And so, I mean, we talked about it when we covered season one, how Will says he's supposed to cast a fireball, and he says the Demogorgon got me.

And that whole exchange with him and Mike in front of the Wheeler house before he goes missing.

So we see Will in the Upside down when this opens, and he's using a gun to try to fight the Demogorgon.

What did you think of that?

Wow.

He's casting fireball right on point.

It's like on the nose.

It's like, there it is.

He cast a fireball spell to get away.

But it was.

I also just think that, like, I think we all thought that Will was, like, passively hiding this that whole time.

I'm like, oh, shoot.

Will.

Will use the gun.

Justice for Will Byers.

Justice.

Will.

He channeling Nancy, right?

And pulled out that gun, shot that Demogorgon right in the face.

Right in the face.

Jonathan skipped sharpshooting class in the Byers family because he sucked at it.

And then Nancy and Will are killing it.

But, I mean, justice for Will.

Everybody was like, oh, he's not brave.

He doesn't do this.

All he does is use his censor stuff.

Will was out here jumping over.

Jumping from one tree to the next, outrunning Demogorgons, being failed by his fucking JanSport.

Like, I mean, come on.

Okay, the JanSport is not supposed to hold your entire body on a branch.

Listen, this is slander against JanSport.

This is a very, very New York thing.

I don't know how many of y' all did this, but listen, you had to have a JanSport book bag going to school, and it had to have the ties.

Like, you had to have multiple little ties like that you put on the zippers.

Let me tell you something.

If that kid Will Byers was going to school in Queens, Brooklyn, Staten Island.

Well, maybe not Staten Island, Manhattan, one of those fucking ties on the zippers would have caught him.

It's true.

He would have.

It would have been.

It would have been thoroughly fortified for his body weight.

Is true.

Oh, man.

Anyway, but so he takes off, like.

And, you know, he's kind of getting away.

I mean, we find out that a Demogorgon can.

We kind of knew Demogorgons could climb, but in season one, we didn't know Demogorgons could climb.

So he finds out for the time.

First.

First time as the character.

So I have.

After seeing this scene.

Okay, I guess we should just finish what.

What happened?

So then the Demogorgon does catch him and takes him to the library, which is important because this is where he is found when Joyce and Hopper find him at the end of season one.

And that is where he encounters Vecna, who then hooks him up to the vines, which we know represent the hive mind.

There's some kind of thing moving through these vines.

I'm assuming it's slugs.

I'm assuming that Dart was.

Dart is one of the ones that was in there.

Yeah.

And he says, at long last, we can begin.

We're going to do beautiful things together.

Very creepy scene.

But also, when this was over, I think we were both like, wait, we have more questions now than we did before.

Because it's clear that Vecna specifically wanted Will.

It wasn't just like any kid.

It wasn't like Barb could have also been, you know, whatever Vecna wanted from her.

Right.

Like, it was clearly that he specifically wants Will.

So I think this is confirming for me that something is special about Will Byers.

I agree.

I agree.

Also still have questions about how Will ended up in the Upside down in the first place.

Who bought him into the Upside Down?

Was it Vecna Was it the Demogorgon?

The Demogorgon obviously, is following Vecna's instructions.

It literally bows to him.

Also, I hope, very much hope, this is the same Demogorgon that's gonna get murked later in this night by Jonathan, Nancy, and Steve.

Yeah, that is gonna be great.

But, yeah, this is all transpiring mere hours before Joyce and Hopper get Will out of the Upside Down.

Because the moment that we come into seeing Will is right after is.

Is right after Elle sees him from the.

The deprivation tank that they made in the gym.

Yeah, and that's what I'm saying.

I would have.

I would have liked to, I guess.

And we'll find out more about this, but, like, when we talked earlier, we talked about.

We think he went to probably Dimension X could potentially.

And then that's still on the table that he created the Upside Down.

It would have been interesting that that first scene that we see, I started thinking, well, maybe this isn't the Upside Down.

But the thing that debunks that for me is that he ends up in the library.

So it has to be the Upside down, right?

Like, it literally has to be.

Because I was like, well, maybe this isn't the Upside down that he's in.

And then when the vine gets connected to him, he starts to create the Upside down from his thoughts.

But it looks like it's a.

It's.

It's something else that's happening here.

So.

But.

But, but, but, but.

But this is six days in.

Huh?

Will got snatched on November 6th.

He got rescued on November 12th, according to the math of the fan community.

Yeah.

So this is six days in.

So who knows what this world looked like when he initially landed.

There is a question that.

That this creates for me is.

Is Dimension X the Upside Down?

Are these two different places?

Yeah, I'm with you.

I would love to.

I would love an answer to that.

So let's.

I want to talk about something I know has been a point of contention, because this is, like, at the meat of it, people have been saying, oh, well, Will knew the whole time that Vecna.

About Vecna.

But then he doesn't say anything to the rest of the group.

So we've watched this trailer a few times.

I mean, this first five minutes a few times.

Obviously, Will's eyes are rolling back into the back of his head.

So you could interpret that.

Oh, his eyes are open.

But I don't know.

If your eyes are rolling the back of your head, you're probably not seeing who's in front of you.

So you have to almost assume that he didn't see Vecna, he didn't see him, even though people are interpreting it that way because his eyes aren't literally closed and he's not unconscious only, but he is unconscious completely until whatever is going in through the vine starts going into his body.

And then that's when you start seeing his eyes roll back into the back of his head.

So what do you think about this moment?

Is he conscious of what's going on?

Is he not conscious?

Like, what is your thought?

I think that I have two explanations for Will not.

Well, three, actually.

Okay.

One explanation is, like, sort of the simplest one, that he's not contrast.

So he doesn't.

He has no idea what's going on.

And remember he's going to die in a few hours and be brought back to life by Hopper.

The second one is that he experiences.

This is a trauma that, like, with Elle forgetting about Henry, he forgets all of this.

He doesn't have any memory of this.

And there's.

There could be a lot of reasons for that.

And then my third one is, yeah, Will's known this whole time and hasn't shared with the team, which would make sense for what Vecna says to him in the trailer, which is, you know, you're gonna help me one last time.

So if he's been helping him this whole time, I mean, could it be that Will has been subconsciously being a villain?

I think we.

We have to look at.

I think we have to look at Will's actions in season four through that lens.

Like letting Elle get bullied.

Who knows?

But.

But I don't think that's what's happening here.

I think, like, most likely is that Will didn't have access to any of these memories.

And I guess I would have to go back and look at season two to see what Will says about his time in Upside down to Owens, whether or not he.

He notes that he doesn't remember a lot.

I don't remember.

I actually don't remember.

Season two is probably my least watched season.

Yeah, I think a lot of people feel that go that way.

And I think the Duffers kind of drew us back to about what they said about season two and kind of like trying to find what's going.

I think this goes back to some of the theories that we've talked about throughout our coverage of the previous seasons.

I think two of them that pop out right away are the way that you've positioned Vecna with the mind Flayer and Will, when he's talking to Owens and he's explaining in that scene about after they've burned the vines and went in with what he was saying about him versus me versus us, like, and these way he positioned that so it sounds like he's talking about the mind flare.

And I think the other theory that kind of popped up watching his first five minutes is, I think the way we read it when we were talking about, when I mentioned that everyone.

I always read it, that they went in and saved Will.

But there's another interpretation that could be hanging out there for us, that he was intentionally allowed to leave because it doesn't make sense that he was alive still and stayed alive when Barb was dead and everybody else was dead.

There's a reason why he survived and that this could be part of them, like part of planting a kind of bug in the ecosystem of the.

Of the party.

And I.

And I kind of.

I mean, I kind of think, like, that's being proven out somewhat in this first five minutes.

This could all have been a plot to get to El as well.

You know, Vecna is clearly keeping tabs on folks, as we know from what he says to Nancy and about her trip to see Victor Creel.

He can.

He can keep tabs on this world even if he's not in it.

And so I wonder if he realized that El had been linked up with Will's people and thought that Will would be a better spy.

And then because L disappears for a year, he needs to kind of like accelerate that plan when he has the mind, like, the mind Flayer fully possesses Will, because now he can't find El because she's being hidden by Hopper.

So the plan has to be accelerated.

But, you know, they kind of talk about a little bit in four, right?

Like when he's saying we built.

Like in three and four, they talk about, we built all of this for you, and all of this was being built for her.

Like you said, L goes missing.

But perhaps he also mentions he couldn't create portals without killing some of the people that he killed in season four.

And the only person who could help him do that was L. So all this time, he maybe was trying to spy on where El was, who she was.

So you're right.

I think keeping him alive allows him to do that more than anything.

I mean, killing Barb does exactly what he wants to do, too, because it actually keeps Nancy investigating what's going on with this and keeps her engaged in a way that he.

He can keep tabs on her from undoing anything because obviously I'm going be keep it real of the whole, of the whole party right now.

Two of the biggest threats to him are the two people who he, I mean, is, are Nancy and l. Like, they're, they're, they're two of the biggest ones, you know, So.

I don't.

But I actually think that the, the biggest threats to him and to his power over Will, at least, are Joyce and Jonathan.

Yeah, for sure.

But I don't think he sees that because I don't think he ever thinks about love as a weapon.

Yeah, I agree.

And we've talked about that.

I agree with you on that.

I totally agree with you on that.

So I, I, this first five minutes, just like I, I was grateful for it.

I'm grateful for any content.

Yeah.

I was like, oh, now I have more questions.

I mean, one of the questions I have.

And I love the makeup on this show.

I love the stuff.

I love everything.

I know there's times where we kind of like bagging or whatever, but I gotta say, every now and then there's a shot of Vecna where the first thing that pops into my mind is, you're a mean one, Mr. Grinch.

I saw someone, someone on Threads said, doesn't.

Doesn't the vecna look like the Grinch?

And once they said it, I like, couldn't.

I. I can't see it.

I can't unsee it.

It's like, holy, he looks like the Grinch who stole Will.

You know what I mean?

Like, that's it.

Totally true.

But I will say this for the, the, the hair and makeup and the other effects.

I mean, we talked about the trailer already.

But I, I just want to say Lucas's hair in the trailer is concerning.

It's very concerning.

And I do not understand why Netflix cannot get the same wig people as Bridgerton to do this show.

I just don't get it.

Karen's wig is a mess.

Linda Hamilton's wig in the trailer is a mess.

And Lucas's wig is also a mess.

So back to the first five minutes.

This Will CGI thing is not working for me.

Yeah, I do think I looked at a side by side.

It does look like Will from season one.

It just looks so uncanny that it takes you out of the moment.

I think they did a much better job with de aging Elle in season four.

Yeah.

And.

But she didn't look like herself either.

If I remember when I first saw it, I was like, it, it feels weird, you know, I don't know.

I don't.

I'm with you, though.

I'm with you.

That, that, that one looks better than Will.

But it's a hard process.

It takes a lot.

It takes a lot of work to do.

I think, like, the fact that you can even get close is commendable.

I think this is one of those technologies that will get better with time.

I totally agree.

Yeah.

I mean, it's gotten so much better over years.

Over the years, but it's.

It's a little bit tough, especially since this show is opening on it.

Yeah, it's opening on.

On this, like, weirdly rendered young, like, younger version of Will.

But I get it.

Vecna was never a part of their original plan.

Yeah, they had an idea for an entity that was Vecna like, but they hadn't fully conceptualized what Vecna would be.

And so even if they had filmed this wet in season one, they would have still had.

Some of.

It would have still looked weird because they would have had to add Vecna.

Yeah.

So I get it.

I think between this and the aging up of Holly, we should just let it go.

We're going to have to declare fan bankruptcy on those topics because there is no.

I mean, there's some things that the Duffers do, which I respect.

They just commit to it, and they just like, hey, if you guys don't want to.

This is what it is.

This is.

This is what it is.

We're going to have a kid that kind of looks like Will.

His mannerisms will be the same.

We're going to have Holly age up so that she's in high school already or middle school school.

This is just.

This is how it's going to go.

So just deal with it.

And I would.

I'm fine.

I'm fine with it.

The Holly thing actually bothers me more than the Will thing.

But, like, I.

It is what it is.

I just think that there's.

I think there's.

I, I hate to say it.

We've danced around it.

I don't know.

I, I, I'm just want to register it.

We're a day before this thing drops, there's going to be times.

I feel like there's going to be time stuff.

I feel like there's gonna be time stuff.

And when.

I mean time stuff.

I mean, time jumps.

Things in the past.

We already know that things are stuck in a certain moment.

They've already introduced that there's something going on with time, not only with the clock, but with the fact that it's stuck on the exact day inside the Upside down that Will went missing, that Nancy's able to see, like, things don't exist that have moved on and kept going.

There's some reason that Vecna knew to pull Will, and I think it's gonna have to do with time stuff.

And he says something to him.

We're gonna do some beautiful things together.

Same way that in the trailer, he says, this will be the last time you help me.

That in season four also makes mention of the fact that you and your friends.

To Elliot, you and your friends think you've won.

This is only just the beginning, indicating that he knows something else has.

That this was going to happen.

Like, he had an idea that all this had to play out that way.

So I feel like there's gonna be time stuff.

I agree.

I think there.

There might be time stuff.

I don't want it, but I don't want it either.

I think.

I think that's a fair.

I. I think that, like, we know that Elle can see the past.

If she goes into someone's mind, she can see their memory.

She can see.

Can Vecna go beyond that?

Maybe.

And he's.

He's been gathering a lot of energy over this time.

Brenner says it like he.

This dude's been out of commission for.

What is that, like, close to a decade?

Like eight years?

Yeah.

Since you.

Since he's talking to Al and he says since you sent him back, like, sent him to somewhere else.

So, like, we don't know what he's been doing in that time.

He could.

He could have been acquiring new powers.

We just don't know.

And I do think that it's fair to call it out because we have the back to the future stuff.

We have Elle's monologue from season four where she talks where she's quoting Joyce about time.

I think the time stuff is extremely possible.

I just don't want it.

And we have a reference to a wrinkle in time in the.

In.

In the.

The list of episodes.

Right.

So there.

So that I think Escape from Camazot.

So, yeah.

So I think.

I think it's very possible we're going to be traveling through time.

All right, well, that's the good stuff with the trailer.

With the trailer with the first five minutes.

And we will go into the play.

We don't know how much of this play will be integrated into the Season 5 plot.

There's some elements will be in there.

They have been very clear that they.

They.

The important things will be revealed.

Okay, so just some information about the play.

I found it particularly interesting.

So it's written by Kate Treffery, who has written a number of really important episodes.

But what I thought was most interesting about its origin is that it's based on a story by the Duffer brothers and Jack Thorne, who we are big fans of.

Yes, Jack Thorne co wrote the Cursed Child, Whatever.

And he also was behind his Dark Materials, which we big fans.

One of the first show that we ever covered for sure.

And Enola Holmes, which I'm a big fan of.

Have you seen those movies?

I haven't seen A NOLA Home.

Oh, they're good.

They're very enjoyable.

But they bring together together two actors that we enjoy watching, which is Millie, Bobby Brown, and then Henry Cavill plays Sherlock Holmes on those.

And so I went as soon as I saw that Jack Thorne was behind the story with.

With the Duffers, I was like, okay, so they really did want this to be canon.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because he's the guy.

He's the.

He's the adapting guy.

So I thought that was impressive.

Yeah.

And I think, you know Kaytree Fry, she has been in the.

The writers room of Stranger Things in season two.

Like we talked about in the earlier part of this episode that wasn't spoiler driven around the play she wrote the Spy, with which Ross Duffer has said is the most important episode.

She also wrote the Sauna Test, also a very interesting episode.

And the Nina Project, which we're going to cover extensively in the season four, episodes one through five episode.

And then she is the writer of in season five, Escape from Camazotz.

So good stuff.

She's contributed a lot to this universe.

The ship.

Well, the experiment was that the US government wanted to use radiation to make a ship invisible to the Germans.

The ship disappears.

It doesn't become invisible.

It goes to another dimension.

It goes to Dimension X where the crew is completely overrun by Demogorgons.

That's the cold open of this play.

When he came back from.

From wherever he went for those 12 hours.

He was changed and something weird happened with him where he.

A neighbor kid got hurt.

Well, actually, we don't know if it was a kid.

I think.

I think it was just a neighbor.

It says, they say a neighbor was hurt.

And after that his parents were like, we got to get out of here.

So they moved to Hawkins.

Meanwhile, at Hawkins High, Joyce Maldonado, soon to be buyers because she's already.

Already dating Lonnie, unfortunately.

So Byers is her married name.

Why did she drop it?

She should have just dropped it.

It went right back to Maldonado.

Like, you know, she probably won't have the same name as Jonathan and.

Yeah, for sure.

But she's directing a play and she cast Henry and Patty Newby, who is Bob's adopted sister in that play.

I'm not going to go too much into the play plot line, so I'm going to leave some things.

So if you do see the play, there will be some surprises for you.

I'm just doing like the hot sort of like the.

The most important things.

We also meet, obviously, a young Bob Newbie, but we also meet a young hopper who is exactly the same.

Hasn't changed at all.

Exactly the same.

They're not one.

Not one change.

Except he has more responsibility now.

Oh, my gosh.

So Henry and Patti really connect.

But the Mind Flayer is haunting Henry and that because it's haunting Henry, some really strange things start to happen in Hawkins, including pets dying.

And this all leads to an event where Patty convinces Henry to use his powers for good and try to find her mom.

So he just, like El, goes into the Void when.

When somebody needs to be found.

Henry's going into his Void looking for Patty's mom because she.

She.

The first part of the play is called the Girl from Nowhere.

So she's got some identity issues, right?

Oh, wow.

A bunch of events come together and her dad rushes into the creel house.

This is all happening in their attic.

To remove his daughter interrupts whatever is going on with Henry in the Void and is attacked by something.

And to Patty, it looks like Henry is using his powers against her father.

She later goes to visit him in the hospital and he tells her, actually, no, protect that boy.

Protect the boy.

Something else was attacking me and he was fighting back.

So that's when Patty realizes that the powers are.

They're not coming from Henry, but from this other entity, which we know to be the Mind Flayer.

And the reason we know it's the Mind Flayer is because the play uses the imagery of the Mind Flayer.

Huh?

Like, it's the same.

The Mind Flayer looks the same in the show as.

As it does in the play.

Holy moly.

Wow.

Okay, Any questions so far?

I mean, tons, like, but keep going, keep going.

I'll save them.

I'll save them.

That's crazy.

Wow.

Okay, so after this happens, this attack where the.

Patty's father is the principal of the school.

And so it's like a.

Kind of a big deal in the small town, like Hawkins, when the principal is blinded at someone's house.

And so when this happens, Virginia Creel completely freaks out and she sends for Dr. Brenner and gives over her son to Brenner.

Brenner is obsessed with Dimension X and knows has been tracking Henry ever since he went missing in Nevada back when he was 8.

And the reason that Brenner is obsessed with Dimension X is because Brenner's father was on the USS Eldridge, and he was the only person to survive that whole debacle.

And when he returned, he had a different blood type, and he came back as a totally different person.

When Henry came back, he had a unique blood type.

And I want.

I'm saying unique and not just different, because that's how the play put it.

I don't know if Brenner's father had a unique blood type or if it was just different from the one he had.

Henry comes back with a totally different blood type.

Totally unique.

No other human has this blood type.

They've never seen it before.

Wow.

And it's very clear that Brenner wants to use Henry to make contact with Dimension X again.

And so it's Brenner who encourages Henry, who's been fighting the Mind Flayer this whole time, to let the Mind Flayer in.

And after he does that, that's when Henry heads home and murders his family.

And then he goes back to.

He goes to find Patty.

It's.

It's a little bit more complicated than that, but he goes to find Patty at the school.

There's a. Brenner and Patty both kind of fight for the soul of Henry Creel.

Patty is hurt in the process, and right before he finds Patti, he has this exchange of Joyce that I think is really important to point out, where he tells Joyce that because of the terrible things that are going to happen, that she needs to fight for the people she loves.

Huh.

So that explains why she's such a fighter and why she knows something.

Wow.

And so the play essentially ends with them showing us that Henry then essentially became a prisoner of Brenner and a literal, literal prisoner.

He was like restraint in a chair for a long time and not allowed to be free until they used his blood in some way to create 11 other children.

Wow.

And so he meets 11.

He's.

He's freed and allowed to work with the children, and that's when he meets 11.

In that process, as that's happening in the show closes, a bunch of newspaper headlines flash on the screen.

One of them is that the Hawkins lab has opened.

Another is that they're recruiting pregnant women to be part of some kind of trial.

And then one that I did not catch, the whole one.

And I don't know why.

It's been driving me insane why they included it.

Yeah, it's about the quarry, and I don't know why they're talking about the quarry.

Like, I don't get it.

Why that was one of the headlines.

There were probably others, too, that I missed.

You're not allowed to have your phone out during the play, which is just common courtesy in every play I've ever seen, but they were very strict about it.

In this play in particular, anytime somebody even took out their phone to look at the time, the ushers came and told them to put it away.

So I obviously didn't want to risk it.

But these notes were mostly taken while I was sitting in the hallway after the play.

So on my phone, oh, my gosh.

She was, like, photographing memory, remembering, and writing them down.

The things that we do for you all to get this content.

It's hilarious.

Oh, it's great.

That's amazing.

What a synopsis.

I have so many questions.

I have a bunch.

So hopefully, with me asking my questions, some of you will get your questions answered.

If not, please feel free to hit us up.

I am planning to see the play.

Even with all of this detail, I am going to see the play.

It's still worth that.

And I left a. I left the most charming parts.

The play is extremely charming.

You really spend a lot of time with Joyce and Hopper, and that's awesome.

And then there's plenty to see.

It is the production quality.

I mean, the production that they put up is incredible.

It's worth every penny.

I can't wait.

If you can get to New York City or if you're going to be here for a trip, definitely try to fit it in.

That's.

That's.

That's amazing.

So.

So first, let's start with the ship disappears In Dimension X.

What is Dimension X?

And how can we think about that different than the Upside Down?

Or is it even something different?

Like, is it a different place?

So I think Dimension X is different from the Upside down, just based on the visual cues that we've received in the show.

Dimension X has a more, like, yellowish hue to it.

It is where Elle initially banishes Henry.

She does not banish him to the Upside Down.

That's Dimension X.

And it seems like Demogorgons are native to Dimension X.

Okay, okay, okay, that makes sense.

So that.

And that would be.

And that kind of plays with that.

Maybe there are they.

Is Vecna in Dimension X.

And that's a flashback when he says that to the Demogorgon that we're talking about in that trailer.

Wow.

Well, this.

This is a question of what Upside down is.

Did Will create the Upside Down?

Is the Upside Down a separate dimension that already existed?

Where Vecna was hanging out?

Where did l touch the Demogorgon was that?

God?

Well, what day?

I know it's stuck on a date, but I can't remember.

So it stuck the day that Will.

Missing, but that's also the day that Elle touched the Demogorgordon.

So both Will and Elle could have.

If.

If we believe that this Upside down was created by one of the characters, it could have been either of them.

Maybe touching the Demogorgon is what created the Upside Down.

Maybe it was already there.

Maybe Will created it.

We don't really know.

You know my theory.

I'm gonna hold that one for a second because I've been thinking about it a lot.

I want to figure out how, like, verbalize it, but I think I, I.

What I have said on the pod numerous times is I do think that Upside down is.

Is some way connected to Will.

Will Byers consciousness.

I have some theories, too, that could back that up, but it's nothing.

It's nothing from Netflix.

It's not canon.

It's.

It's Internet chatter, essentially, and in potential leaks and, you know, the stuff that was coming about.

Out about season five months ago, it's hard to figure out what was official and what was leaks.

So I don't want to share it.

But at some point, I do think that you.

I. I'm never gonna share this stuff because I don't.

I think it's mostly leaks.

But I do think that your theory based on some of that.

Yeah.

Is very possible.

I can't.

I cannot rule it out.

I cannot rule out that Will created The upside down.

Good stuff, man.

So.

So let's think about this.

So if we're thinking about Brenner, he, obviously, now we know, plays some part of a role in the murder of the Creel family by just encouraging him to let the mind flayer.

Like, in.

What.

What do you think Brenner knew or actually understood?

Like, did he know that he was creating that, that.

That.

That Vecna was going to be created from.

From Henry?

Do you think that that's what he knew?

I think he knew he was creating a weapon.

And I, I.

This piece, I. I left out, but it.

Every time Henry kills, he gets stronger.

And Brenner tells him that with each kill, you get stronger, you absorb their energy.

So I absolutely think Brenner knew what he was doing.

I think he didn't care because I think he thought it was in the service of something more important.

Yeah.

Mainly like finding out what happened to his dad.

And Henry does not have a good relationship with his parents at all.

His dad loves him, but is dealing with his own demons, and his mom is scared of him.

And once again, Brenner steps into that parenting role.

It's not quite the same as with 11, but he very much has a fatherly type relationship with Henry.

I mean, do they make Henry feel sympathetic, like.

Or is he, like, clearly, like, okay, he's gonna become.

Oh, so they do.

They make.

He's our main character.

And you love him.

I love him.

I think, you know, like, the Henry that existed before the mind.

So this is the Henry that existed even after he goes into Dimension x when he's 8 years old.

This is, like, 16 year old Henry.

Wow.

Actually, he might be a little younger than that.

I get the impression that Joyce and Hopper are supposed to be, like, maybe seniors in high school, but maybe Henry and Patty are freshmen or sophomores.

But let's.

Let's say he's 15, 16 years old.

He is a sweetheart.

And he wants to.

He really wants to use his powers for good.

He really does.

He knows he has them, but he can't control them.

So I guess my.

The other question I have then is if these folks were around, if Hopper and Joyce were around when all this was happening, and Patty, why are they.

They don't seem like there's.

They feel very surprised by everything that's happening with Will.

They have to have heard something about all the things that happened to Victor and Henry Krill and all.

Why are they so surprised in the beginning when Will goes missing and everything's going on?

They have Completely non supernatural reasons for thinking everything that happens happened.

They think Victor did it all.

Victor killed the animals.

Victor attacked the principal, Victor, because they.

Threw Victor because of what we understand inside season four, where Victor ends up, it's all pinned on Victor the way, the way that it is that he was like a sick person.

Okay, got it.

Huh.

So.

So they, it's the way that they set up the play is that the Joyce, Bob and Hopper kind of act like Steve, Nancy and Jonathan or Steve, Robin, Nancy.

Like, they kind of, they kind of take on the role of the older team.

So they're on like a Mr. Like, they're on Scooby Doo.

And this is a Scooby Doo.

Okay, Scooby Doo mission.

Yes.

So they're trying to figure out what's going on in Hawkins with the animals and trying to figure out how they can help, you know, like, like Hopper wants the reward so he can get out of town because he's miserable.

Joyce, I think, just wants to figure out what's going on.

But even then they really care about the, the town and like, making sure people are safe.

But they think that this is like a regular Scooby Doo, like there's going to be a human.

They're not thinking about supernatural elements.

Yeah, they're not thinking.

Okay, got you, got you.

So.

So, so you mentioned supernatural elements, and I'm thinking about scientific elements that actually have super that cause the supernatural.

Like, what is it about the blood and the powers?

Like, how did, how does Henry's DNA somehow create these other kids?

Do they explain at all, like, why his blood is super, is so powerful?

I've struggled with this one a lot.

It makes sense in one regard that the kids were, you know, transfused with his blood or whatever, because some, because they all have elements of his powers, but not all his powers.

So, like.

L can't make people see things, but Kali can.

Huh.

So that kind of makes sense to me that, that if, if he genetically is almost like a parent, you, you might get some traits of your parent, but you're not going to get them all.

Everything.

Yeah, exactly.

The thing that bugs me that I haven't been able to square.

They don't explain in the play how the blood is used.

The thing that bugs me that I haven't been able to square is that Terry has powers.

Hmm.

So my thought is that they, these kids were normal embryos and they recruited pregnant women and they use.

And so maybe Terry absorbed some of the DNA too.

They're saying, yeah, but what, but how Would as a fully grown adult, like just having.

Like that they.

So, yeah, it doesn't mean I don't.

I don't love it.

But Terry clearly has some latent powers because she's able to manipulate me.

And so, like, I don't.

I can't explain that piece.

I guess.

Well, maybe we'll.

Oh, maybe we'll find out more about Terry.

I don't know.

That's.

I doubt we'll find out more about Terry, but we might find out how they use the blood, because I think that will be important.

All we see is them taking blood from Henry, but we don't see what happens.

All we know is that that ship goes to Dimension X and that the Demogorgons are in Dimension X.

So I think the most logical thing is that that's their natural habitat.

Because even in the show, when l banishes him to Dimension X, it looks just like Dimension X, the same coloring.

There's Demogorgons walking around.

So I think we have to assume the Mind Flayer and the Demogorgons are from Dimension X and that Henry is the one who pulled everything into the Upside down or other theories.

Al created the Upside Down.

Will created the Upside Down.

Who knows?

But it's a.

It's a new dimension.

And I guess, you know, I'm thinking about, as you were talking about it, why I said, huh.

I'm just like sitting here is.

I'm like, we've gone with this whole thing about the Upside Down.

They've called it the Upside Down.

They, like Elle explains to them by flipping the board over in the first season that it's a parallel dimension.

I wonder where she gets that knowledge of the parallel dimension.

Right?

How does she know that there's a parallel dimension that's right underneath it?

That's exactly the same.

Good question.

How does she know who Will is?

How does she know who Will is?

All.

All these things better be answered.

I need answers.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because some.

A lot of this is like, oh, I think they didn't.

Some of this is like, I don't think that they had anticipated where this.

Exactly where the story was going to go.

So there's like a few things that they may not be prepared to answer, but this is not one of them that I feel like you can really leave hanging.

Like Elle has.

Is suspiciously well informed about the Upside Down.

So maybe what we'll find out is that the Upside down was there for ages and they knew it and she had explored it looking for the Demo.

Like we might get more information like that.

I just don't.

The.

Is there.

The play has no upside down in it.

Yeah.

That's crazy.

That's crazy.

Is there any chance, based on the play, based on what we're talking about here, is there any chance that Will was also a product of the blood, like, from Henry Krill, but not in the lab.

Is there any chance Joyce knowing Henry.

No.

Is there any chance like that.

That's a possibility that.

Okay, all right.

Not based on the information we have in the play, because they show us all the kids, and none of them are.

And none of them, like Henry and her aren't hooking up.

There's no.

Okay, cool.

No.

And Joyce and Henry are not friends, okay?

They're.

You know, Joyce is the director of the play.

She's not mean to him, but they're not.

I wouldn't call them friends like her.

Her friend group is Hopper and Bob and then Lonnie.

But.

But the cool thing with play is all the parents are in the play.

Bob is her friend in high school.

I thought they didn't.

He.

She didn't even know her.

His name.

Bob is also in love with her already.

It's like, Right.

So that's weird.

It's a whole thing.

How is that.

That's strange because he was like, you wouldn't even know my name in high school.

And now look at me.

I'm just.

Okay, all right.

All right.

Anyway, that's definitely a retcon.

But, yeah, her and Bob are friendly.

He's definitely in love with Joyce.

So.

So is Hopper, but she's with Lonnie, and the Wheelers are in the play.

Ted is a jock.

Attract.

The Henderson.

Well, Dustin's mom is in the play.

I. I think her.

His dad is too.

The.

At least one of the Sinclairs is there, and then there's a Monson as well.

So the.

The parents are well represented.

Everyone's represented from every single.

Every single faction, every single tribe.

Well done.

Well, that's.

I don't remember hearing Harrington, but.

But it's possible there's a Harrington, and I just missed it.

There's a lot of.

There's a lot of teenagers that they introduced to us.

Well, thank you.

Thank you for answering some of these questions.

It's piquing my interest even more, and it's given me a little bit more, you know, filled in.

If you haven't seen the play, as Andrew said, it is playing on.

In Manhattan on Broadway.

So I would go check it out, and I'm going to.

And that will, you know, just want to do a little episode, just kind of give you some insights.

You know, Andrea was telling me about different things about the play.

And this is some of this I heard for the first time as we're podcasting this, most of this, like, so I'm, like, pretty excited that to hear about it.

And yeah, that is our episode for today, the trailer episode.

Stay tuned for all of our coverage of things that everyone has seen, which is, well, if you haven't seen them, you won't be listening to the episodes, but seasons one through four as we get ready for season five.

And we we will see you next time.

Bye, everyone.